:00:21. > :00:24.Mellow and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up: -- hello.
:00:24. > :00:27.The finance secretary fights back over claims his budget is not
:00:27. > :00:28.over claims his budget is not over claims his budget is not
:00:28. > :00:33.focused on jobs and growth. I
:00:33. > :00:37.I believe this Budget provides a bld and ambitious programme for our
:00:37. > :00:43.people in the context of the most challenging financial environment
:00:43. > :00:47.Scotland has faced since devolution. As MSPs debate fuel poverty,
:00:47. > :00:51.environmental groups claim a lack of funding will result in missed
:00:51. > :00:55.targets. And at Westminster whale gauge reaction to the news that the
:00:55. > :00:59.Prime Minister wants an referendum on the future of Europe. -- we'll
:01:00. > :01:04.gauge. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us. The Budget Bill
:01:04. > :01:09.passed its first parliamentary hurdle at Holyrood yesterday. It's
:01:09. > :01:12.branded as a package to support jobs and growth. More of that in a
:01:12. > :01:16.moment but let's focus on jobs and the latest unemployment figures
:01:16. > :01:20.which show a fau. I'm joined by our Business and economy Editor,
:01:20. > :01:23.Douglas Fraser and by our commentator for the afternoon,
:01:23. > :01:27.George Kerevan. Thank you for joining me. Douglas, what do the
:01:28. > :01:32.figures tell snus Monthly figures. These cover those seeking work
:01:32. > :01:42.between September and no. The number of Scots seeking work down
:01:42. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :01:49.by 14,000 to reach 2,007 -- 207,000. It is explained by the fact that
:01:49. > :01:54.the number of people in the job market fell. People who are no
:01:54. > :02:00.longer looking for work. It might be students who feel there is no
:02:00. > :02:04.longer point and retirees who are counted as coming out of the labour
:02:04. > :02:09.market. And those on Jobseeker's Allowance, that fell, 1,400 fewer
:02:09. > :02:13.people in December, down to 135,500. Lots of good news there it sounds
:02:13. > :02:17.like on the surface at least. What can it tell us about the general
:02:17. > :02:20.state of the economy, do you think? It is very hard to tell what the
:02:21. > :02:26.jobs market, in particular, if you just deal with that, compared with
:02:26. > :02:30.all the other evidence we've got, which still looks pretty bleak. Now
:02:30. > :02:35.it may be that companies have been reluctant to let go of workers,
:02:35. > :02:39.hanging on to skills. Productivity is pretty poor in the whole British
:02:39. > :02:42.economy. The economy appears to be bumping along. We may be back in
:02:42. > :02:46.another dip of downturn at the moment. We won't find out for a
:02:46. > :02:53.while but the evidence coming out. We have had three surveys in the
:02:53. > :02:56.past 24 hours. CBI Scotland and Master Builders and the Scottish
:02:56. > :03:01.Chambers of Commerce. They all point to the direction that last
:03:01. > :03:04.year was bleak. It is picking up a bit this year, but only aly.
:03:04. > :03:08.Manufacturing slightly more, for instance, than retail and tourism.
:03:08. > :03:12.George Kerevan, a mixed bag in the economy but politicians both in the
:03:12. > :03:17.Scottish and UK governments are taking heed of this and presenting
:03:17. > :03:20.it as a positive progress. Well, I mean, that's what politicians are
:03:20. > :03:24.there for. They will find good news in even the worst news. I have to
:03:24. > :03:28.say, though, in terms of spreading wisdom and light on the subject,
:03:28. > :03:31.nobody in the world understands British job figures at the moment.
:03:31. > :03:34.Everything we know about the way the economy is going, is this it is
:03:34. > :03:38.going back into recession. Hopefully not but that's what the
:03:38. > :03:42.figures are telling us, apart from jobs figures which seem to be
:03:42. > :03:46.getting better. One reason might be the way they calculate the monthly
:03:46. > :03:49.job figures is on a sampling basis. And everybody involved is getting
:03:49. > :03:55.worried that maybe the figures aren't telling us the real truth.
:03:55. > :03:59.If you take a longer view, then things are a bit bleaker. Also, I
:03:59. > :04:02.suspect, the nature of the jobs market has changed a lot in the
:04:02. > :04:06.last decade. There's a lot more part-time, short-time working and
:04:06. > :04:13.people are filling in with that. So I think a lot of the good news is
:04:13. > :04:18.temporary, rather than long term. Douglas, some rather bad news from
:04:18. > :04:24.Lloyds about jobs in Scotland. Lloyds Banking grournings mainly
:04:24. > :04:29.Bank of Scotland jobs, 135 are to go. -- Lloyds Banking Group. Most
:04:29. > :04:32.of the 135 will be branch managers, the people who are really customer-
:04:32. > :04:37.facing. Many more branches will share managers. Another 70 people
:04:37. > :04:41.transferring to other suppliers and cash handling and cleaning. So, yet
:04:41. > :04:46.more bad news about jobs in the banking sector. And breaking
:04:46. > :04:51.business news this afternoon on SSE. Yes, this is Scotland's second
:04:51. > :04:56.biggest company after Royal Bank of Scotland, a real monster, based in
:04:56. > :05:01.Perth. SSE. Not always popular because of prices going Uits Chief
:05:01. > :05:06.Executive has been around for ten years. Ian Marchant has announced
:05:06. > :05:10.he is standsing around in July and being replaced by his deputy. He
:05:10. > :05:16.has been important with keeping SSE nind ask the land but building up
:05:16. > :05:19.as a serious player, particularly within the renewable sector. As I
:05:19. > :05:23.mentioned the Budget Bill began its passage through the Scottish
:05:23. > :05:27.Parliament yesterday. The finance secretary, John Swinney, described
:05:27. > :05:34.it as, "A bold and ambitious programme of investment." More from
:05:34. > :05:37.him in a movement but first flavour of the debate. The first challenge
:05:37. > :05:41.is to accelerate economic recovery by supporting groups and pem into
:05:41. > :05:46.employment, particularly young people and by supporting Scottish
:05:46. > :05:50.business, including by capitalising on new opportunities in the low
:05:50. > :05:55.carbon economy. Second li, the bill addresses the need to maintain
:05:55. > :05:59.infrastructure investment as a key part of the economic strategy.
:05:59. > :06:03.Thirdly, it takes approximate forward an ambitious programme of
:06:03. > :06:07.public sector reform, together with our deleverry partners to ensure
:06:07. > :06:11.the sustainibility and quality of our services and to make a decisive
:06:11. > :06:16.shift in favour of preventative expenditure. Final li, the Bill
:06:16. > :06:18.delivers on our commitment to a social wage at the time of intense
:06:18. > :06:22.pressure on household budgets. Those challenges are brought into
:06:22. > :06:26.sharp focus by the continuing uncertainty in the global economic
:06:26. > :06:30.outlook. The Government's spending decisions will continue to be
:06:30. > :06:34.guided by our purpose of increasing sustainable economic growth and by
:06:34. > :06:37.working to deliver our programme for government and the economic
:06:37. > :06:41.strategy. Global economic conditions continue to impact on
:06:42. > :06:44.economic confidence. Business investment remains considerably
:06:44. > :06:48.below pre-recession levels whilst household incomes remain under
:06:48. > :06:51.pressure. We are, therefore, focused on enhancing confidence, in
:06:51. > :06:55.order to encourage private sector investment and greth and to help
:06:56. > :06:59.households where we can. -- and growth. Presiding Officer, in
:06:59. > :07:02.conclusion, I believe this Budget provides a bold and ambitious
:07:02. > :07:05.programme of investment in our people and infrastructure in the
:07:05. > :07:11.context of the most challenging financial environment that Scotland
:07:11. > :07:14.has faced since devolution. The Government has taken decisions to
:07:14. > :07:18.prioritise employibility and economic recovery to build for the
:07:18. > :07:21.future and to ensure our public services are supported in the years
:07:22. > :07:24.to come. That's the foundation of the government's budget. I look
:07:24. > :07:27.forward to the debate and I will give consideration to any
:07:27. > :07:30.constructive answer positive suggestions made. I commend the
:07:30. > :07:34.Budget that I believe meets the needs of the people of Scotland, to
:07:34. > :07:38.Parliament today. This year the SNP's choice it s to
:07:38. > :07:41.hammer colleges yet again. Let's # No doubt. This choice has not
:07:41. > :07:45.been forced upon them by Westminster. This is a decision
:07:45. > :07:50.made in Scotland. The result will be the denial of further education
:07:50. > :07:52.for thousands more Scots of all ages, and yet longer college
:07:52. > :07:56.waiting lists. We believe that the 35 million
:07:56. > :07:59.needed to reverse the cuts to further education can be found from
:07:59. > :08:08.a combination of forecast underspend, efficiencies and
:08:08. > :08:12.savings, such as on the 16 referendum work streams or
:08:12. > :08:16.profligate government vanity programmes like the Ryder Cup junk
:08:16. > :08:20.et. If there was a Budget for jobs and greth investment would be
:08:20. > :08:24.investing in colleges and our young people's future. Scottish Labour
:08:24. > :08:27.believes in investing in these young lives. We call on the
:08:27. > :08:34.Government at this late stage to reverse cuts to colleges and
:08:34. > :08:37.support our beleaguered Further Education sector. We have all seen
:08:37. > :08:43.the depressing youth unemployment figures in Scotland and across the
:08:43. > :08:48.rest of the UK. But still we see a drastic reduction to the colleges'
:08:48. > :08:53.budget next year. It's �556 million to the Government, in the current
:08:53. > :08:57.year and it will be �511.7 million according to the sksh Government
:08:57. > :09:02.next year. -- Scottish Government. A drop of
:09:02. > :09:08.�34 million in cash terms in a single year. A 6% cut in cash terms,
:09:08. > :09:13.at a time when the Scottish Budget as a whole, much to the Cabinet
:09:13. > :09:16.Secretary's disappointment, sees an increase. A cash-terms increase to
:09:17. > :09:21.the Scottish Budget as a whole of �7 million. A very small increase I
:09:21. > :09:26.have to say, but a cash increase nonetheless. We will support the
:09:26. > :09:30.Budget if we can secure issues like the colleges and the extra funding
:09:30. > :09:34.because the colleges do play an important role in making sure that
:09:34. > :09:41.we have the workforce ready for boosting the economy. And likewise,
:09:41. > :09:47.we would like to thrink to the economy as well: that we would
:09:47. > :09:50.support extra investment -- we would like to link. We so we say
:09:50. > :09:55.that two-year-olds, 40% of the poorest two-year-olds should get 15
:09:55. > :10:00.hours of nursery education each week. The noble laureate, you have
:10:00. > :10:03.heard me say and refer to him numerous times, he says the highest
:10:03. > :10:07.return on investment in education is before the age of three.
:10:07. > :10:11.That's when you can make the biggest impact. You can determine
:10:11. > :10:15.somebody's outcome at the age of 26. Before the age of two, if you make
:10:15. > :10:19.the right investment at that time. The Scottish Government has
:10:19. > :10:22.committed to 1% of two-year-olds getting free childcare and
:10:22. > :10:28.education for two-year-olds. We think that's good but we think we
:10:28. > :10:31.need to move up to 40%. Now the finance secretary is still
:10:31. > :10:35.speaking in the Chamber at the moment and we'll have him on the
:10:35. > :10:39.programme as soon as he is free. Now the Prime Minister finally
:10:39. > :10:44.delivered his long-awaited speech on Britain's relationship with the
:10:44. > :10:47.European Union this morning. David Cameron the British people must
:10:47. > :10:50.have their say on Europe as he promised to hold an in-out
:10:50. > :10:54.referendum if the Conservatives win the next election. During the
:10:54. > :10:58.question and answer session, he also drew parallels between a
:10:58. > :11:02.referendum on EU membership and the referendum on Scottish independence.
:11:02. > :11:07.Many people said to me - well, obviously you just have to ignore
:11:07. > :11:12.what is happening in Scotland and the fact there's an SNP Government.
:11:12. > :11:14.I said no, if the Scottish people have voted for an SNP Government,
:11:14. > :11:18.the Westminster Parliament should be constructive, we should trust
:11:19. > :11:23.the people, give them that choice. That is why there will be a
:11:23. > :11:27.referendum on whether Scotland stays in the United Kingdom. I
:11:27. > :11:37.passionately believe that it should and I hope it will. I think it is
:11:37. > :11:41.the snaim some ways on this issue - - it is the same on this issue. You
:11:42. > :11:45.can put your head in the sand and hope that things will turn out all
:11:46. > :11:48.right. I think that's incredible. There is a huge debate on Britain's
:11:49. > :11:52.place in Europe. There is massive change in terms of the European
:11:52. > :11:56.Union and the single currency. The right answer, the bold answer and
:11:56. > :12:01.the answer in our national interests is to get out there,
:12:01. > :12:04.shape the debate, win for Britain and put it to the British people to
:12:04. > :12:08.our international and political future. That's what we will be
:12:08. > :12:12.doing and the path I have set out much it is right for Britain.
:12:12. > :12:16.Salmond gave this reaction. I don't think the Prime Minister should
:12:16. > :12:20.make speeches earlier in the morning. It was fundamentally
:12:20. > :12:25.confused. He is trying to appease the Euro-sceptics in his party and
:12:25. > :12:29.on the other hand trying to appear as a European reformer. It blows a
:12:29. > :12:33.huge pwhol in the Unionist parties arguments they have been arguing
:12:33. > :12:38.the referendum on the Scottish Parliament has been delayed. The
:12:38. > :12:42.European referendum he is talking about, is delayed for five years'
:12:42. > :12:46.time. Let's pick up on the Europe issue with our political comen
:12:46. > :12:50.ticketor, George Kerevan. How do you think David Cameron is handling
:12:50. > :12:55.this? -- our political commentator. Is he being canny, knowing that the
:12:55. > :12:59.negotiation also have to take place between all Member States as the
:12:59. > :13:03.European Union changes? I think he is being far-sighted. The euro is
:13:03. > :13:06.the game changer and if the eurozone countries want it keep the
:13:06. > :13:10.single currency they'll have to move towards a federal union, the
:13:10. > :13:14.import of the crisis we have had over the last two years. If they
:13:15. > :13:18.are going to have a federal union, they know that Britain is not going
:13:18. > :13:22.to join. But everybody realises, in the heart of Europe, that Britain's
:13:22. > :13:28.relationship is going to change. I think Cameron is banking on that
:13:28. > :13:32.thing he knows coming over the horizon, to say - let's Go do the
:13:33. > :13:37.renegotiation and he can see off his troublesome backbenchers by
:13:37. > :13:41.offering a referendum when knows it is going to happen anyway. My only
:13:41. > :13:46.queryi is.. David Cameron didn't bother to tell us -- queryi is:
:13:46. > :13:50.David Cameron didn't bother to tell us what he is renegotiating about.
:13:50. > :13:55.What he wants. The reason for that is that nothing is going to change
:13:55. > :13:59.that much in economic terms. If we do a free trade deal. Britain does
:13:59. > :14:04.a free trade deal with a United Europe. There still has to be a
:14:04. > :14:07.bisz of rules which stops people cheating on the free trade. --
:14:07. > :14:11.basis of rules. We will end up with the bureaucracy we have at the
:14:11. > :14:14.moment. Not a lot of train ultimately, if you get far down the
:14:14. > :14:19.line, if you want a free market with Europe. The mood in Brussels
:14:19. > :14:23.was one of suspicion, hearing what Mr Cameron is saying. The Germans
:14:23. > :14:30.is saying, you cannot cherry pick what you have when it comes to
:14:30. > :14:37.Europe. The French are saying it can nobility a la carte. I love the
:14:37. > :14:41.vote -- it cannot be a la carte. I love the quote from the French
:14:42. > :14:45.Agriculture Minister, who said he would roll out the red carpet. It
:14:45. > :14:49.is basic. You want it keep a free market but you don't want to be
:14:49. > :14:52.part of the union with the same tax and monetary policy. But if you
:14:52. > :14:56.want a fre market we have to have rules to govern that, so you will
:14:56. > :15:01.accept the rules we lay down, otherwise pick up your ball and go
:15:01. > :15:04.away. As I say, we'll end up, if Britain has a more associate status,
:15:04. > :15:07.we'll keep our foreign policy, a separate social policy but the
:15:07. > :15:11.economic rules of the game are not going to change. OK, thank you very
:15:11. > :15:17.much for just now. Back with you later.
:15:17. > :15:21.Now, I'm joined by Finance Secretary. In a moment we'll go
:15:22. > :15:25.live to Holyrood to speak to John Swinney who is standing by in the
:15:25. > :15:28.Garden Lobby. We were talking about the budget earlier and also the
:15:28. > :15:32.latest employment figures. Mr Swinney is there for us now. Thank
:15:32. > :15:36.you for joining us. The Budget passed its first hurdle in
:15:36. > :15:40.Parliament yesterday but there's pressure on you to overhaul it and
:15:40. > :15:44.it make you focus more on jobs and growth, isn't there? What was set
:15:44. > :15:48.out in the Budget yesterday was a programme of investment in the
:15:48. > :15:51.Scottish economy, which covers a whole range of different sectors,
:15:51. > :15:54.whether it is about the capital programme that the Government has
:15:55. > :15:58.brought foortd and which I recently expanded in December -- brought
:15:58. > :16:00.forward. Or whether it is the investment in schools and training
:16:00. > :16:04.to ensure that members of the public who are unemployed have the
:16:04. > :16:08.best chance of getting back into employment. These are the proposals
:16:08. > :16:11.the Government has brought forward as part of our strategy to focus on
:16:11. > :16:14.growth within the Scottish economy. Clearly there is a debate to be had.
:16:14. > :16:18.The opposition parties have set out some of the areas where they are
:16:18. > :16:21.interested in taking forward additional proposals. My simple
:16:21. > :16:25.challenge to the opposition parties is: if they want me to spend money
:16:25. > :16:28.in a different way, they have to set out how we take the money away
:16:28. > :16:33.from other areas of public service, because the Budget has it balance.
:16:33. > :16:36.I have set out a balanced proposition and I need the
:16:36. > :16:39.Opposition to take the kind of hard decisions that we as a Government
:16:39. > :16:43.have had to take. There are many tough decisions to take, of course,
:16:43. > :16:47.but it is not even the Opposition who are saying you are not focusing
:16:47. > :16:54.on jobs and growth. Professor David Bell who advises the finance
:16:54. > :17:00.committee says your actual priority I am not sure that is a fair
:17:00. > :17:03.representation on what he said. Taking four-day programme that
:17:03. > :17:07.invests in the economy, put an active programme of reform of our
:17:07. > :17:13.public services to make sure that they need the needs of our people,
:17:13. > :17:18.to shift emphasis to make them more focused on preventive expenditure
:17:18. > :17:21.and interventions so we can deliver a manageable and sustainable public
:17:21. > :17:25.service in the years to come and ensure that all this is taken
:17:25. > :17:28.forward in a way that strengthens the contribution we make to the
:17:28. > :17:31.protection of the natural environment. But as the balance of
:17:31. > :17:35.the programme the Government is putting forward and if we are
:17:35. > :17:39.having a debate about choices, doing things differently, taking a
:17:39. > :17:42.different approach, then other parties involved in the process
:17:42. > :17:46.have to set out where the money will come from to afford the
:17:46. > :17:49.different spending choices they want to make. Let's broaden things
:17:50. > :17:55.and look at the economy as a whole, the latest job statistics for
:17:55. > :18:03.example. What is your reading of them, it looks like a lot of people
:18:03. > :18:06.are dropping out of the jobs market. There is a welcome fall in our
:18:06. > :18:11.unemployment, the second month in which this has happened and we have
:18:11. > :18:14.also seen a significant fall in youth unemployment as well so for
:18:14. > :18:21.the first time in a considerable period, the level of youth
:18:21. > :18:24.unemployment is below 20%. These are still too high, but what they
:18:24. > :18:27.indicate is that we are making steady progress in getting people
:18:28. > :18:33.back into employment and to reducing levels of unemployment.
:18:33. > :18:38.The key part of the economy that still needs further attention is
:18:38. > :18:42.the level of employment. We need to get growth back into the economy.
:18:42. > :18:47.That is why I am concentrating so much in the Budget and the
:18:47. > :18:51.arguments of the UK Government about the importance of investing
:18:51. > :18:55.in capital infrastructure to ensure that we can build up the intensity
:18:55. > :19:00.of activity in the economy, create jobs and get people back into
:19:00. > :19:05.employment. But will remain the focus. What is your reading of the
:19:05. > :19:10.situation with the economy? We have differing indicators such as
:19:10. > :19:16.exports up but the Chambers of Commerce survey say they see little
:19:16. > :19:20.improvement in trading conditions. I think there's a lot of varied
:19:20. > :19:25.indicators but taking them in the round, looking at the purchasing
:19:25. > :19:29.managers' index, possibly the most reliable indication of the state of
:19:29. > :19:33.the economy, that is showing modest progress being made in boosting
:19:33. > :19:37.confidence within the Scottish economy. Coupled to a fall in
:19:37. > :19:40.unemployment, linked to the success we have had in relation to
:19:41. > :19:46.exporting activity, I think there are a number of indicators that we
:19:46. > :19:52.are moving into a period of greater optimism about the economy. That is
:19:53. > :19:58.welcome but we have to continue to intensify our focus on economic
:19:58. > :20:00.growth and that lies at the heart of the interests of the Scottish
:20:00. > :20:04.Government and we will take forward that in an effective way to promote
:20:04. > :20:10.the opportunities to invest in Scotland and create employment.
:20:10. > :20:13.other big story today, Mr Cameron's speech on Europe. In some ways you
:20:13. > :20:19.would probably like to renegotiate with Europe when it comes to the
:20:19. > :20:28.Common Agricultural Policy, fishing and the Budget as well. Would you
:20:28. > :20:31.not? Would you like to change your relationship with Europe? We are
:20:31. > :20:35.already in the European Union and we want to continue that membership
:20:35. > :20:39.and to make sure we use it to Scotland's maximum advantage but
:20:40. > :20:44.the key point book of that comes out of the speech today is a
:20:44. > :20:48.devastating blow to the no campaign in Scotland because what the Prime
:20:48. > :20:53.Minister has said is that it is OK to have a referendum in five years
:20:53. > :20:56.on the EU membership question, but does not create uncertainty in the
:20:56. > :21:00.economy so one of the massive argument that has been put forward
:21:00. > :21:04.by the no campaign of which the Prime Minister is an exponent, is
:21:04. > :21:09.somehow there will be uncertainty in the Scottish economy as we
:21:09. > :21:12.prepare for 2014, that has been knocked asunder as an argument and
:21:13. > :21:18.we know that Scotland can now take a confident decision in debating
:21:18. > :21:21.our future in 2014 sure and certain that the economy will continue to
:21:21. > :21:27.be strengthened and will have a bright future as an independent
:21:27. > :21:30.country. It can get complicated as to what can happen in 2014 and 2015
:21:31. > :21:37.depending on who is elected in various referenda but we do offer
:21:37. > :21:40.MSPs a vote on Europe? Some people perhaps think that the
:21:41. > :21:48.Conservatives point at that they are a Euro-sceptic, would you
:21:48. > :21:52.offered MSPs a vote on membership on the EU? We should concentrate on
:21:52. > :21:56.the immediate question, whether we want to be an independent culture
:21:56. > :22:00.with a strong voice in Europe able to protect and promote our
:22:00. > :22:08.interests and to protect the people of Scotland. But is a really
:22:08. > :22:12.exciting prospect to allow economic levers and that is what they are
:22:12. > :22:15.SNP Government will continue to articulate for people of Scotland.
:22:15. > :22:19.Thank you for joining us, John Swinney.
:22:19. > :22:23.It is that time of year when the heating is on higher but for many,
:22:23. > :22:28.it is simply not affordable. The Scottish Government is committed to
:22:28. > :22:33.eradicating fuel poverty by 2016, perhaps too ambitious a target
:22:33. > :22:37.opposition MSPs say. A cross-party fuel poverty group meets tomorrow
:22:37. > :22:47.and that issue is now being debated at Holyrood and the Scottish
:22:47. > :22:50.
:22:50. > :22:54.Government's speaker is now number of applicants, rural
:22:54. > :23:00.businesses, RSLs. We propose a community-based approach to
:23:00. > :23:05.tackling fuel poverty in our my manifesto earmarking �50 million
:23:05. > :23:14.over the course of this Parliament for a warm homes fund to promote
:23:14. > :23:20.heating and renewable options. The first project his when I am hoping
:23:20. > :23:24.to visit very soon. This product is expected to become operational in
:23:24. > :23:30.July, 2013. A few other schemes in the pipeline will be announced
:23:30. > :23:34.shortly. R S Ls will promote renewable energy to improve energy
:23:34. > :23:39.efficiency of housing and give people warmer homes. District
:23:39. > :23:49.heating it was can provide low-cost heat to households particularly for
:23:49. > :23:54.
:23:54. > :23:58.Maltese storey blocks -- multi- storey blocks. Presiding officer,
:23:58. > :24:02.fuel poverty is a blight on our country and this Scottish
:24:02. > :24:06.Government will continue to urge the UK Government which has
:24:06. > :24:10.responsibility in this area to do more to drive down energy costs and
:24:10. > :24:17.to ensure that our households are better protected. Members of this
:24:17. > :24:20.Parliament and the people of Scotland can be sure that this
:24:20. > :24:24.government has done and will continue to do everything it can do
:24:24. > :24:34.within existing powers to tackle the scourge of fuel poverty. I move
:24:34. > :24:39.the motion. I now call of Richard Baker to speak to and move
:24:39. > :24:43.amendment, nine minutes. The recent freezing temperatures remind us of
:24:43. > :24:47.the acute need to tackle fuel poverty in Scotland. We live in a
:24:48. > :24:52.time of increasing fuel bills, an increase in fuel poverty and still
:24:52. > :24:56.poorly insulated homes. Behind that, at nearly one in three Scotland
:24:56. > :25:02.households living in fuel poverty are families, potentially those on
:25:02. > :25:05.the lowest incomes unable to afford to heat homes properly and to many
:25:05. > :25:11.older people are there to choose between heating and eating. I am
:25:11. > :25:14.acutely aware of the impact of fuel poverty from my work in charities
:25:14. > :25:24.and the all too high levels of winter deaths in Scotland. The
:25:24. > :25:24.
:25:24. > :25:27.scale of the challenge is clear and it is correct to ask if enough of
:25:27. > :25:32.is being done. We readily acknowledge the impact that welfare
:25:32. > :25:36.reform proposals will have on the poorest households and the need for
:25:36. > :25:42.far more robust regulation of the energy industry. We have action to
:25:42. > :25:45.curb energy companies hiking prices up for customers. They have an
:25:45. > :25:50.important role to play and I will return to this but nevertheless,
:25:50. > :25:53.the capacity of the Scottish Government to take action is also
:25:53. > :25:58.substantial and it is correct to focus on what can be done now in
:25:58. > :26:02.this Parliament. We have heard the phrase that it is a scandal and
:26:02. > :26:07.that energy-which Scotland, we have fuel poverty, that is true but we
:26:07. > :26:10.believe it is a scandal that anyone in the UK should live in fuel
:26:10. > :26:18.poverty, we are not the UK Government to take a different
:26:18. > :26:21.course. Power should be used to be full extent to tackle fuel poverty
:26:21. > :26:26.and while there are undoubtedly areas where we support the action
:26:26. > :26:30.taken by ministers including the principles of the National retrofit
:26:30. > :26:35.programme, in the context of rising fuel poverty, we believe further
:26:35. > :26:38.action is required and we are not alone in this as members will see
:26:38. > :26:41.from a number of excellent briefings received ahead of this
:26:41. > :26:49.debate and some of the issues I would like to speak about are those
:26:49. > :26:57.that are being highlighted to us by Energy Action Scotland, W W F and
:26:58. > :27:01.so on. I have stated we support the proposal for the National retrofit
:27:01. > :27:06.programmes and we see many benefits of the scheme, not only from
:27:06. > :27:10.improving energy efficiency or our housing stock but also that it will
:27:10. > :27:14.support jobs in our construction sector in these tough times for our
:27:14. > :27:21.the comic. That work of improving our housing stock has been a
:27:21. > :27:25.priority for this party for a long time -- for our economy. Reducing
:27:25. > :27:29.usage must be the key goal in tackling fuel poverty and in doing
:27:29. > :27:33.so, contributing also to the goal of reducing carbon emissions. That
:27:33. > :27:38.is why we have made housing be key priority in our proposals. A
:27:38. > :27:41.proposal we believe will not only result in more affordable homes but
:27:41. > :27:45.also homes built to a higher standard of energy efficiency and
:27:45. > :27:49.allowing greater investment in retrofit schemes. Our priority for
:27:50. > :27:57.housing is why we supported a greenie new deal at the last
:27:57. > :28:06.election. Off-course it is right that -- of course it is correct
:28:07. > :28:11.that we welcome a retrofit programme, and while the Scottish
:28:11. > :28:18.Government budget for fuel poverty is stable at least in the Spending
:28:18. > :28:21.Review, three years ago there was a two-thirds cut and that was a
:28:21. > :28:26.costly mistake. Many what will be looking forward to the Energy
:28:26. > :28:31.Action Scotland Burns supper and am told but Robert Burns spoke that he
:28:31. > :28:34.had three Guineas to carry out his work as an excise man when it
:28:34. > :28:38.really only required five. Ministers find themselves in a
:28:39. > :28:43.similar situation with the funds available. We must have priority
:28:43. > :28:45.for funding going forward and we know that of the �200 million
:28:45. > :28:49.budget for the Scottish Government States it has set for energy
:28:49. > :28:54.efficiency and for tackling fuel poverty, almost two-thirds of that
:28:55. > :29:00.is to come from energy companies. That is indeed something which
:29:01. > :29:04.should be a good thing, which should be secured as the Cabinet
:29:04. > :29:08.has intervened on for her 70 position but also it is important
:29:08. > :29:16.to call on ministers to update Parliament on the progress of
:29:17. > :29:20.Nicosia -- negotiations. These funds, if they are not secured,
:29:20. > :29:24.that will raise significant questions over the delivery of the
:29:24. > :29:28.strategy. We must hope that energy companies will recognise the
:29:28. > :29:32.responsibilities to contribute to the work of fuel poverty when there
:29:32. > :29:36.are dialogues on this issue. It is also welcome there has been
:29:36. > :29:40.Scottish Government funding for the goal early projects and significant
:29:40. > :29:43.take up by authorities. But I would like to have more information from
:29:44. > :29:48.ministers about what private investment has secured in these
:29:49. > :29:53.schemes. I understand there was information from the Minister in
:29:53. > :29:58.the speech but it would be good to see what has been secured. It will
:29:58. > :30:03.be a good indicator. There are also questions about when the rules will
:30:03. > :30:07.be concluded in Scotland on the operation of the green deal, for
:30:07. > :30:10.example on the occupancy assessment required and it would be good to
:30:10. > :30:14.hear from the Minister about progress in this area as well.
:30:14. > :30:22.While we have welcomed the national retrofit programme, I am conscious
:30:22. > :30:26.of the advice of energy action Scotland. There will be the need
:30:26. > :30:29.for a programme similar to the package to ensure that the most
:30:29. > :30:36.vulnerable households outside the retrofit programmes will not have
:30:36. > :30:40.to wait for years for help. Dr Murray raise a point about
:30:40. > :30:45.continued eligibility for assistance for those outside the
:30:45. > :30:48.schemes at this point. But these general points reinforce the
:30:48. > :30:53.importance of ministers coming forward with further details of how
:30:53. > :30:57.the national programme will indeed be rolled out. We also want more
:30:57. > :31:00.avenues for tackling fuel poverty to be explored as we are looking at
:31:00. > :31:05.initiatives such as the collective purchase of energy by communities
:31:06. > :31:11.to bring down costs and also to look at further pioneering schemes
:31:11. > :31:15.like the one in Aberdeen in terms of community heat but works and the
:31:15. > :31:21.Minister spoke about this in her comments. In 2001, this Parliament
:31:21. > :31:26.made a commitment to abolish your poverty by 2016 and this government
:31:26. > :31:30.has correctly said it will abide by that commitment. Earlier this month
:31:30. > :31:35.in response to a question from me, the Cabinet Secretary describe this
:31:36. > :31:39.as not only a statutory but a moral duty. It is correct to ask, given
:31:39. > :31:43.that we have at this moment high levels of fuel poverty, which in
:31:43. > :31:52.the last year unfortunately increased, what assessment have
:31:52. > :31:56.ministers made of the ability to meet this? Are plans adequate to
:31:56. > :32:02.meet the target and will play set milestones in a detailed and
:32:02. > :32:05.published plan? STUDIO: MSPs debating live in the
:32:06. > :32:09.chamber and its cross to the Garden Lobby of the Scottish Parliament
:32:09. > :32:13.and get reaction on a variety of issues and I am joined by Labour's
:32:13. > :32:16.Ken McIntosh, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Willie
:32:16. > :32:26.Rennie and from the Scottish Conservatives, Jackson Carlaw. Good
:32:26. > :32:26.
:32:26. > :32:30.Ken Mackintosh, let's turn to the Europe issue we were speaking about
:32:30. > :32:36.with John Swinney. Ed Miliband says he doesn't want a vote now that.
:32:36. > :32:39.Will spark a pretty intense debate in your party, won't it? I think it
:32:39. > :32:47.is fair to admit that there are a range of views within the party. I
:32:47. > :32:50.was dethrieted hear Ed's comments. I think think -- delighted to hear
:32:50. > :32:53.Ed' comments. I think our future lies within yuefrplt it is
:32:53. > :32:57.difficult to see anything - the suggestion that we should come out
:32:57. > :33:01.of Europe is anything other than a retro grade step. I was delighted
:33:01. > :33:06.to hear a clear, unambiguous statement of our position from Ed.
:33:06. > :33:09.I have to say, also, a reminder to David Cameron that he is making the
:33:09. > :33:12.same mistake of Alex Salmond, of creating years of uncertainty by
:33:12. > :33:16.calling a referendum. Do you not think that Mr Cameron has perhaps
:33:16. > :33:18.the upper hand and new Ed Miliband perhaps looked as though he was
:33:18. > :33:23.floundering a little in Prime Minister's Questions, which we will
:33:23. > :33:28.see in a moment. No, I don't agree at all. I think that what has shapd
:33:28. > :33:33.that the Prime Minister, David Cameron, looks like he is the
:33:33. > :33:37.victim or looks like he is acting because of the views of his own
:33:37. > :33:42.backbenchers. He looks like the victim of of the party rather than
:33:42. > :33:46.the leader. To call a referendum on something he say he is wants to
:33:46. > :33:50.stay in strikes me as weak leadership. Ed has made our
:33:50. > :33:55.position clear. I'm delighted. There is uncertainty across
:33:55. > :33:59.Scotland. There is no use pretending that Scotland is any
:33:59. > :34:03.less Euro-sceptic than the rest of the UK but I have to point out our
:34:04. > :34:08.economic, social and political future is joined up and entwineed
:34:08. > :34:11.with our European colleagues. Willie Rennie. It seems that the
:34:11. > :34:14.Liberal Democrats are once again in an impossible position. How can
:34:14. > :34:18.Nick Clegg stay in the coalition when he says this renegotiation is
:34:18. > :34:21.not in the national interested tr? Because actually this referendum,
:34:21. > :34:24.even though David Cameron says he wants to have it, won't be
:34:24. > :34:30.delivered by this coalition. It will be in a future Parliament. It
:34:30. > :34:34.is not even going to be within the next few years. And this is' the
:34:34. > :34:38.the Liberal Democrats' very firmly, pro-European for creating a strong
:34:38. > :34:42.economy, fair society to people can get on. That's what our focus
:34:42. > :34:45.should be. It should not be about creating uncertainty, whether about
:34:45. > :34:48.independence or Europe. That's the benefit of having the Liberal
:34:48. > :34:53.Democrats in the coalition. Charles Kennedy was saying today,
:34:53. > :34:57.your former leader, that this kind of referendum in any future
:34:57. > :35:01.coalition pact would be a deal breaker. It would be very, very
:35:01. > :35:05.important. We have always regard our international negotiation with
:35:05. > :35:10.the rest of the world as important and the European European is a
:35:10. > :35:15.central part. I would be in step with Charles. Do you think what the
:35:15. > :35:20.PM said today will keep the Euro- sceptics in your party happy,
:35:20. > :35:24.Jackson? I think what is extraordinary is the inconsistency
:35:24. > :35:29.of the two positionings we have just heard. All of us have a right
:35:29. > :35:31.to decide whether or not we remain in the United king do. David
:35:31. > :35:34.Cameron initiated the debate leading to the referendum. If it is
:35:34. > :35:38.right for the people of Scot throond decide whether or not it is
:35:38. > :35:41.right to remain in the UK. Why is it wrong for the people of the UK
:35:41. > :35:45.to decide whether we remain in a European Union after we have
:35:45. > :35:50.renegotiated our terms of entry. Those positions are consistent.
:35:50. > :35:52.These are two issues which have bedeviled our party for a
:35:53. > :35:55.generation, admittedly the Conservative Party more than others
:35:56. > :35:59.but it is not alone. Across all political parties there is a
:35:59. > :36:03.concern and that concern has grown within the public, over the last
:36:03. > :36:06.ten years and over the last few years, during the turmoil we've
:36:06. > :36:11.seen on the European mainland over the economy in particular. I think
:36:11. > :36:14.this is the right position to take and it is time for to us put both
:36:14. > :36:17.of the issues decisively behind us. I hope the Prime Minister is
:36:17. > :36:22.successful in the renegotiation he will lead and that we will vote to
:36:22. > :36:24.remain within the European Union on renegotiated terms. It has
:36:25. > :36:29.bedeviled your party. I will ask the question again: do you think
:36:29. > :36:32.the Euro-sceptics will be fully happy with what the PM has said,
:36:32. > :36:37.within your party? Yes there are sceptics in our party and other
:36:37. > :36:41.parties too. I believe they will. There will undoubtedly be some,
:36:41. > :36:45.whatever the circumstance, who will vote to come out of Europe. There
:36:45. > :36:50.will undoubtedly be people of n Scotland, whatever the prospects of
:36:50. > :36:54.the UK lvote to come out of the UK. But where does the majority lie? I
:36:54. > :36:58.believe the majority wants us to be part of the European Union,
:36:58. > :37:01.enthusiastically but to be so on terms in Britain's national
:37:01. > :37:05.interest. And progressively and this is a feeling shared by other
:37:05. > :37:10.parties, the Labour Party have expressed this and will come to
:37:10. > :37:15.regret the confused position they have adopted, that we need to
:37:15. > :37:21.renegotiate the identity and terms of our entry within the European
:37:21. > :37:25.Union in Britain's national interests. The confused issue, that
:37:25. > :37:28.the SNpmt have brought up saying youville brought a whole in your
:37:28. > :37:32.own argument when it comes to uncertainty. You said that the
:37:32. > :37:35.Scottish referendum will create uncertainty, they say this is
:37:35. > :37:38.creating uncertainty. uncertainty exist. The uncertainty
:37:38. > :37:41.about Scotland's if you tour has existed for longer than the length
:37:41. > :37:45.of this Parliament. That's why the referendum will decisively put this
:37:45. > :37:48.issue to rest. There are no renegotiated terms of entry. It is
:37:48. > :37:51.a decision for the people of Scotland whether or not they wish
:37:51. > :37:55.to be within the United Kingdom as it is today or not. The difference
:37:55. > :37:59.with the referendum over Europe is that there is to be a renegotiation
:37:59. > :38:04.over the terms of membership and once that term is complete, that's
:38:04. > :38:07.when the people of the UK will have their say. Others have said it, it
:38:07. > :38:12.is wholly dependent upon the election of a Conservative Party
:38:12. > :38:19.Government at the next election. It is perfectly clear to the people of
:38:19. > :38:24.Scotland and the United Nation, if you want to be clear on Europe,
:38:24. > :38:26.only one party will be there for you. Ken Mackintosh, better news
:38:26. > :38:30.for the economy, looking at job figures. Do you think the Scottish
:38:30. > :38:33.Government is doing a good job for Scotland's economy?? I think you
:38:33. > :38:38.are jumping to an odd conclusion there. It is certainly good it see
:38:38. > :38:42.a fall in the headline jobless total. That's very welcome. It is a
:38:42. > :38:45.major problem facing our economy. I don't know if you have noticed but
:38:45. > :38:48.Scotland is doing worse than the rest of the UK I hardly see why
:38:48. > :38:53.anything that the Scottish Government is doing, can be lauded
:38:53. > :38:58.as making a difference here. They are doing worse than the rest of
:38:58. > :39:03.the UK. Remember than just talking about the SNP's, pluses or minuss
:39:03. > :39:06.in this, and I think there is a lot more they can do, what is worrying
:39:06. > :39:08.is the underlying issues. The Scottish Government every month
:39:08. > :39:11.prefer to talk about employment rather than unemployment. The
:39:11. > :39:14.employment figures have gone down. The number of people in work has
:39:14. > :39:19.gone down by more than those unemployed. The unless economically
:39:19. > :39:23.inactive has gone down as well. It's really - has gone up, which
:39:23. > :39:27.means there are a will the more economically inactive. There is a
:39:27. > :39:31.lot happening in our economy and it is not very good. I would suggest
:39:31. > :39:34.that this is the moment that the Finance Minister, John Swinney,
:39:34. > :39:38.uses his Budget to try to inject more confidence into the economy
:39:38. > :39:42.and some more growth and particularly, to take further
:39:42. > :39:47.action to promote jobs. He could do more. He could use the powers he
:39:47. > :39:51.has and the borrowing he has on rail, to reinstate the rail project.
:39:51. > :39:56.He could put money back into houses and colleagues which he cut.
:39:56. > :40:00.were speaking to Mr John Swinney. He said he had to balt Budget. Your
:40:00. > :40:03.proposals are for extra spending. - - he said he had to balance the
:40:03. > :40:10.Budget. He seemed to be in denial about his own Budget. In November
:40:10. > :40:14.last year he cut �300 million from this year's NPit. Programme, the
:40:14. > :40:19.Scottish future's programme. This year, and another �300 million next
:40:20. > :40:23.year. That's the capacity to spend on what he calls his pipeline of
:40:23. > :40:27.shovel-ready projects. He should reinstate that, use it for the
:40:27. > :40:31.capital programme he announced in December and then use all the
:40:31. > :40:35.Budget consequentials to invest in housing. We know housing will make
:40:35. > :40:38.a big difference to boost the construction industry in Scotland.
:40:38. > :40:43.Willy Rennie from the Liberal Democrats. Your point about helping
:40:43. > :40:47.to increase jobs and growth was extending free nursery provision.
:40:47. > :40:51.How would that help? Twofrpblgts aspects. The nursery education for
:40:51. > :40:54.the most impoverished two-year-olds, will not only give them a chance
:40:55. > :40:58.for the future and enjoying the economic fruits. It would also give
:40:58. > :41:05.their families the opportunity to get back to work. That would
:41:05. > :41:09.obviously bring economics benefits. We are also suggesting there should
:41:09. > :41:16.be re$$DUMP a reversal of the cuts to colleges. But they could do one
:41:16. > :41:20.other thing as well. To release the �1.5 billion locked up in Scottish
:41:20. > :41:23.WAP water to invest in science, energy efficiency, also in terms of
:41:23. > :41:29.local economic development. They have so far rejected those
:41:29. > :41:36.proposals. I think that could be a big stim last to the economy at a
:41:36. > :41:42.time when needed. -- stimulus. We need it make changes. Work in
:41:42. > :41:45.partnership with the UK, but also make changes. Just to turn to you
:41:45. > :41:48.finally, Jackson Carlow. Mr Swinney says he is operating under a tight
:41:48. > :41:51.financial settlement from the UK Government. He is blaming
:41:51. > :41:55.Westminster. I was always actually thought Swinney win to be a
:41:55. > :42:00.relatively decent man. I don't think he has any vested interests
:42:00. > :42:03.in not doing the very best for employment in Scotland. The reality
:42:03. > :42:09.is, I think they are so obsessed with the independence ageneral
:42:10. > :42:14.dthey are not doing what they should do. There has been a
:42:14. > :42:18.realisation that the �500 million they have got for shovel-ready
:42:18. > :42:21.projects they have managed to spend just �20 million. It is indolence
:42:21. > :42:27.on the Government's part. If they want more jobs created they should
:42:27. > :42:31.make use of the funds which they have in the bank today to spend.
:42:31. > :42:33.Jackson Carlow from the Conservatives, Willy Rennie from
:42:33. > :42:37.the Liberal Democrats and Ken Mackintosh from Labour, thank you
:42:37. > :42:39.for joining me. Now David Cameron's speech on Europe dominated Prime
:42:39. > :42:42.Minister's Questions with the Labour Leader, Ed Miliband,
:42:42. > :42:45.challenging David Cameron to say that if he doesn't get what he
:42:45. > :42:52.wants in negotiations, would he recommend that Britain leaves the
:42:52. > :42:56.I want to see a strong Britain in a reformed Europe. We have a very
:42:56. > :42:59.clear plan. We want to reset the relationship. We will hold that
:42:59. > :43:09.referendum. We'll recommend that resettlement with the British
:43:09. > :43:15.
:43:15. > :43:20.people but the question now is for him: The clue is in the title,
:43:20. > :43:26.Prime Minister's Questions. He is supposed to be answering the
:43:26. > :43:31.questions. He has had six months to think about this. It's not too much
:43:31. > :43:35.to ask. The right honourable member for Rushcliff who is not here, he
:43:35. > :43:39.would say unequivocally he would vote yes in a referendum. The
:43:39. > :43:44.children's secretary, who is hiding away down there, he has briefed he
:43:44. > :43:48.wants us to leave the European Union. I'm just asking the Prime
:43:48. > :43:52.Minister a straight question. In the referendum, can he guarantee he
:43:53. > :44:00.will vote yes in a in-out referendum? Yes, I support
:44:00. > :44:03.Britain's membership of a reformed European Union. You don't only -
:44:03. > :44:07.only the Leader of the Opposition would go into negotiations
:44:07. > :44:11.expecting to fail. We go into negotiations knowing what is best
:44:11. > :44:16.for Britain. Let me put it to him again: we now have a very clear
:44:16. > :44:22.approach. A renegotiation and then a referendum. What is his answer?
:44:22. > :44:27.Let me tell him. He is meant to leave the Opposition. You cannot
:44:27. > :44:31.fight something with nothing. Miliband. Mr Speaker, I say the
:44:31. > :44:35.reason the people behind him are cheering, is not because they want
:44:35. > :44:38.to vote yes in an in-out referendum it is because they want to vote
:44:38. > :44:48."no." That's the reality for the Prime Minister. He still hasn't
:44:48. > :44:52.Let's put it another way and give him another chance. We know from
:44:52. > :44:56.his speech this morning that he wants to go off and negotiate on
:44:56. > :45:01.fairness and flexibility and motherhood and apple pie in Europe.
:45:01. > :45:08.Can he name one thing, just one thing that if he doesn't get, he'll
:45:08. > :45:10.recommend leaving the European? -- the European Union? I don't want
:45:10. > :45:15.Britain to leave the European Union. I want Britain to refom the
:45:15. > :45:18.European Union. We have set out the whole areas where we want -- reform.
:45:18. > :45:22.THE SPEAKER: Order. Members are shouting their heads off at the
:45:22. > :45:25.Prime Minister, they must desist. Let's hear the answers.
:45:25. > :45:31.Prime Minister? We have been very clear about what we want to see
:45:31. > :45:33.change. There are a whole series of areas, social legislation,
:45:33. > :45:37.employment legislation, environmental legislation where
:45:37. > :45:41.Europe has gone far too far and we Ned to properly safe grd the single
:45:41. > :45:46.market. We also want to safeguard. We also want to make sure that
:45:46. > :45:52.ever-closer union does not aplay to the United king do. These are the
:45:52. > :45:56.things we are fighting for. But let me put it to him: we want
:45:56. > :46:01.renegotiation and then a referendum. What does he want? Or doesn't he
:46:01. > :46:08.know? So, Mr Speaker, four hours since the big speech, he can't
:46:08. > :46:15.answer the most basic question of all: whether he's for "yes", or
:46:15. > :46:23.whether he is for "no." And why can't he answer it, Mr Speaker? Why
:46:23. > :46:25.can't he say, unequiff cleically, he will vote "yes" in a referendum
:46:25. > :46:29.-- unequivocally. It is because of the people behind
:46:29. > :46:32.him. The only thing that has changed when he said he was against
:46:32. > :46:34.an in-out referendum, it not the situation in Europe but the
:46:35. > :46:40.situation in the Tory Party. Why doesn't he admit it? He has been
:46:41. > :46:46.briven to it, not in the national interest, but been dragged to it by
:46:46. > :46:49.his party. Dehas been driven to it. The most basic question of all is:
:46:49. > :46:53.do you want a referendum? Do I, does he? He is going to put Britain
:46:53. > :46:57.through years of uncertainty and take a huge gamble with our economy.
:46:57. > :47:07.He is running scared of UKIP. He has given into his party and he
:47:07. > :47:14.I have politely to say to the right honourable gentleman, his whole
:47:14. > :47:19.argument about there being uncertainty is undermined by the he
:47:19. > :47:23.can answer if he wants a referendum or not. Can I give him advice? He
:47:23. > :47:27.needs to go away, get a policy, come back and tell us what it is.
:47:27. > :47:31.In the meantime, our approach is what the British people want and it
:47:31. > :47:36.is right for business, our economy and we will fight for it in the
:47:36. > :47:41.years ahead. Why is it the Prime Minister thinks Scotland's two year
:47:41. > :47:49.referendum is too long when he thinks his five-year referendum...?
:47:49. > :47:55.And easy answer is that the Scottish nationalists want to leave
:47:55. > :47:59.the United Kingdom as it is, and I will be arguing that Scotland
:47:59. > :48:04.should stay in the UK. What I foresee in Europe is a changed
:48:04. > :48:09.Europe and then we ask the people. STUDIO: Let's stay at Westminster,
:48:09. > :48:12.our correspondent David Porter is standing by on College Green.
:48:12. > :48:17.Interesting that Ed Miliband did you that position at Prime
:48:17. > :48:21.Minister's Questions and said he was opposed to an in-out referendum.
:48:21. > :48:24.We will see a lot of probing and the main parties as to exactly
:48:25. > :48:29.where they stand on Europe now and where they would like to see Europe
:48:29. > :48:34.moving in the future. It is one of these rare occasions where it is
:48:35. > :48:39.not hyperbole to say that this is a very important speech that the
:48:39. > :48:42.Prime Minister has given. It could shape a lot of the arguments in the
:48:42. > :48:52.next general election in many ways and were wins the next election,
:48:52. > :48:52.
:48:52. > :48:55.Europe could be one of those key issues -- and whether wins. -- and
:48:55. > :49:00.whoever wins. David Cameron speaking as much as Prime Minister
:49:00. > :49:03.today as he was as Tory leader and the Liberal Democrats on the other
:49:03. > :49:07.side and we know they are far more in favour of closer integration
:49:07. > :49:11.with Europe than perhaps money on the Conservative benches. And
:49:11. > :49:16.earlier I caught up with the Scottish Secretary Michael Moore
:49:16. > :49:21.spin is a Liberal Democrat sitting in the Cabinet, to get his take on
:49:21. > :49:30.the event. As a Liberal Democrat, I am strongly in favour of Scotland
:49:30. > :49:34.and the UK staying part of the European Union. It is important to
:49:34. > :49:38.tackle the big issues, like climate change, that we cannot do on our
:49:38. > :49:42.own. The Prime Minister has set out his view on what his next manifesto
:49:42. > :49:47.might look like but for us as Liberal Democrat, we are committed
:49:47. > :49:51.to Scotland and the UK staying part of Europe. Michael Moore speaking
:49:51. > :49:55.earlier and interesting there that he was saying that David Cameron
:49:55. > :50:00.was speaking as the Conservative leader. Running me now, two MPs
:50:00. > :50:03.from Scotland to I have no doubt will have views about this
:50:03. > :50:08.referendum and another referendum about Scottish independence which
:50:08. > :50:14.we know about. I enjoyed by Gordon bikes for Labour and somebody we
:50:14. > :50:22.saw a Prime Minister's Questions -- I am joined by Gordon Banks. His
:50:22. > :50:27.David Cameron's announcement today, is it a game change or? I think it
:50:27. > :50:34.is a step that the Prime Minister thought he must take, it is party
:50:34. > :50:38.politics so I think it is about fighting off UKIP and from that
:50:38. > :50:42.point of view, any statement the Prime Minister of a country makes
:50:43. > :50:45.of such a serious issue is potentially of significant
:50:46. > :50:52.importance but you must understand the background to it. It is not
:50:52. > :50:56.what is best for the country, it is best for the Conservatives. Mike
:50:56. > :51:01.Weir, do you believe it is one of those speeches that we will perhaps
:51:01. > :51:11.look back on and say that was a very important moment in Britain's
:51:11. > :51:11.
:51:11. > :51:16.relationship with the EU? In the Scottish sense, it is pushing holes
:51:16. > :51:21.in the Scottish referendum question. The UK seems to be on the road out
:51:21. > :51:31.of Europe if the Tories have their way, the coalition are falling
:51:31. > :51:37.
:51:37. > :51:43.apart on this issue. Scotland's issue is quite clear. What is the
:51:43. > :51:47.position of people in Scotland saying they want a vote about the
:51:47. > :51:53.future of their country but also the wider issue of Europe why are
:51:53. > :51:56.they mutually exclusive? A major part of the no campaign has been to
:51:56. > :52:01.scaremonger over Europe. That has gone, they cannot do that because
:52:01. > :52:08.they are on the verge of taking the United Kingdom out of Europe and
:52:08. > :52:12.Labour are defended the Tories'' right to do that. We have a vote in
:52:12. > :52:15.2014 and when we have that vote, we will negotiate for the conditions
:52:15. > :52:19.for Scotland within Europe and we are looking for the best conditions
:52:19. > :52:23.to stay in Europe which we believe his balance and to stay within
:52:23. > :52:26.Europe because a totally different campaign is going on in the rest of
:52:26. > :52:32.the UK where, if you look at what happened in Prime Minister's
:52:32. > :52:36.Questions, interestingly David Cameron came in and then he said he
:52:36. > :52:40.would would personally campaign to stay in the EU, there's silence on
:52:40. > :52:44.the benches. Many of the Tory benches want out of Europe whatever
:52:44. > :52:49.the cost. This argument about renegotiation and bringing back
:52:49. > :52:53.powers is nonsense, they want out and it will be increasingly under
:52:53. > :52:59.pressure to lead Europe irrespective of what he may get in
:52:59. > :53:08.the decisions. Gordon Banks, you were shaking your head when he was
:53:08. > :53:14.alluding to things there it is totally wrong. -- it is totally
:53:14. > :53:18.wrong. We will vote for a Labour government in 2015 and we must
:53:18. > :53:23.understand that this was about Cameron's longevity here, nothing
:53:23. > :53:28.else. Not what is best for the country. A one your own party
:53:28. > :53:34.leader have to move at some point and promise a referendum as well?
:53:34. > :53:37.Ed Miliband's position was clear today. Our focus should be on
:53:37. > :53:43.growing the economy and jobs and that is what the Prime Minister
:53:43. > :53:47.must do, get the country back to work rather have this elongated
:53:47. > :53:52.period which will be hugely damaging for the economy, and for
:53:52. > :53:57.inward investment and I think that the Prime Minister, while thinking
:53:58. > :54:06.that he has created a bit of breathing space for himself and his
:54:06. > :54:16.backbenchers to fend off UKIP, from the, -- from the economic viewpoint,
:54:16. > :54:16.
:54:16. > :54:26.it is damaging. Today it was talking about no in-out
:54:26. > :54:29.
:54:29. > :54:32.referendum... Legislation is in place... David Cameron's situation
:54:32. > :54:36.is that he's going in to negotiate on something, does not know what he
:54:36. > :54:40.will come back with and he will then have an in-out referendum and
:54:40. > :54:43.that is inappropriate, we must think about what is best for the
:54:43. > :54:48.economy, what is best for jobs and that is jobs for the United Kingdom
:54:48. > :54:54.and Scotland and we have got the situation where we have the SNP who
:54:54. > :54:59.have been promising us a referendum on independence since 2007/8. Both
:54:59. > :55:04.of the issues are damaging for the United Kingdom and for Scotland.
:55:04. > :55:07.Mike Weir, briefly, if we do get to a referendum on Britain's
:55:07. > :55:12.involvement in the EU, do you think the people of Britain and Scotland
:55:12. > :55:17.will vote to stay in or go out? must remember there will be two at
:55:17. > :55:21.different scenarios. Will be voted for independence in 2014 and then
:55:21. > :55:24.negotiating from within Europe. A different argument going on in
:55:24. > :55:32.England where UKIP are biting at the heels of the Tories and I
:55:32. > :55:36.suspect that Labour will move, Ed Miliband's Spain is that it is not
:55:36. > :55:41.an in-out referendum, a battle in Middle England which I suspect will
:55:41. > :55:51.take UKIP out of Europe. Thank you for joining us, we will let you get
:55:51. > :55:51.
:55:52. > :55:55.back into the warmth of the humps - - House of Commons. You could have
:55:55. > :55:59.two referenda within a couple of years.
:55:59. > :56:03.Let's get some final thoughts and the company of this afternoon's
:56:03. > :56:08.political commentator, George Kerevan. Interesting hearing about
:56:09. > :56:15.the Unionist things being shot, do you think the thing about Europe
:56:15. > :56:20.has been neutralised and now cannot be used against the S N P? It makes
:56:20. > :56:26.it difficult for the no campaign to take up the campaign they have been,
:56:26. > :56:31.Alistair Darling saying that if you vote to have independence and it
:56:31. > :56:37.puts up the membership up for grabs, but it is up for grabs according to
:56:37. > :56:42.the coalition anyway. As the people analyse the David Cameron speech,
:56:42. > :56:52.life will become more difficult for the Labour Party. Labour going into
:56:52. > :56:56.
:56:56. > :57:00.a general election in 2015, as the party of Europe, the general public
:57:00. > :57:04.will not understand all the ins and outs. What they will see is that
:57:04. > :57:08.they have been offered a referendum and Labour is opposed to that. I
:57:08. > :57:15.think Labour will find that hard to sell on those terms. De you think
:57:15. > :57:19.Ed Miliband will then decide to change his position - what do you
:57:19. > :57:22.think, and will maybe have to soften us? Lots of people in the
:57:22. > :57:28.Labour Party and lots of Labour voters who are not happy with the
:57:28. > :57:35.you. Going back to the Scotland/UK problem for Labour, 60% of people
:57:35. > :57:44.in England want to come out of the EU and in Scotland we are split
:57:44. > :57:49.evenly, 50-50. In an EU referendum, things will swing back to support
:57:49. > :57:53.for the EU because people are worried about change. But it could
:57:53. > :57:58.be that there are still enough people in England to take the UK
:57:58. > :58:03.out of the EU. The problem therefore be as if Scotland stays
:58:03. > :58:11.within the UK and we have a referendum, the Willie's could have
:58:11. > :58:16.a vote in the EU referendum -- and the Scots could have a vote and
:58:16. > :58:22.then England taking us out. But is not a scenario anybody wants to see,
:58:22. > :58:29.particularly not Ed Miliband. could end up quite confusingly,
:58:30. > :58:36.Alex Salmond posing for the UK coming into a referendum and then
:58:36. > :58:44.coming out. Scotland could take England's seat in the EU as England
:58:44. > :58:49.comes out. Nigel Farage has had such a high profile over this issue,
:58:49. > :58:55.do you think his wings have been clipped? UKIP has become a
:58:55. > :59:04.mainstream party at last under Nigel Farage. I think the issue
:59:04. > :59:08.will not go away and though it helps David Cameron in the marginal
:59:08. > :59:18.seats in the general election, in the short term, UKIP is still in
:59:18. > :59:20.
:59:20. > :59:29.pole position to win the European Parliament elections. In which case
:59:29. > :59:33.there's still continuing pressure eating away. George, thank you for
:59:33. > :59:37.coming in. Just to let you know about a special edition of
:59:37. > :59:41.Newsnight Scotland on Monday night, an invited audience representing
:59:41. > :59:44.Scotland's ethnic communities will pose questions to leading