:00:19. > :00:22.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:00:23. > :00:25.programme: On England's National Day, the feast of Saint George, Alex
:00:26. > :00:30.Salmond and David Cameron appeal to Scottish voters ahead of the
:00:31. > :00:33.independence referendum. We've been to the home of the Bard,
:00:34. > :00:39.William Shakespeare, to gauge reaction from English voters to the
:00:40. > :00:43.debate on Scotland's future. And our live debate in the chamber
:00:44. > :00:47.today - Labour call for more action to help thousands of families hit by
:00:48. > :00:51.fuel poverty and what they call the cost of living crisis.
:00:52. > :00:55.More on all those stories coming up and we'll have analysis from our
:00:56. > :01:00.political commentator for the afternoon, George Kerevan. First
:01:01. > :01:04.though, it's St George's Day. The patron saint of England isn't around
:01:05. > :01:07.to give his view on Scottish independence, but others aren't
:01:08. > :01:09.missing the opportunity. The Prime Minister, David Cameron, has
:01:10. > :01:12.appealed for Scotland to remain united with England in what he's
:01:13. > :01:22.called the "world's greatest family of nations".
:01:23. > :01:26.In just five months, the people of Scotland will go to the polls and
:01:27. > :01:32.they will decide whether they want to remain a part of this global
:01:33. > :01:37.success story. So let's prove we can be proud of our individual nations
:01:38. > :01:40.and be committed to our union of nations because no matter how great
:01:41. > :01:43.we are alone, we will always be greater together.
:01:44. > :01:46.Well, the First Minister, Alex Salmond is in England today. He's
:01:47. > :01:50.crossing the border to Carlisle to give a speech in which he'll say
:01:51. > :01:55.that after a "Yes" vote, an enduring friendship would still remain
:01:56. > :02:03.between Scotland and England. People should be proud of their
:02:04. > :02:07.patron saint of England and that applies to Carlisle as much as it
:02:08. > :02:12.does to London. I will detail a range of initiatives that we can
:02:13. > :02:17.take in an independent Scotland, in particular, to strengthen the bonds
:02:18. > :02:19.between Scotland and England and allow our communities to grow
:02:20. > :02:22.together. Let's get more on this from our
:02:23. > :02:30.political correspondent, Lucy Adams. She's at Holyrood and joins me now.
:02:31. > :02:36.Hello. We had a bit of David Cameron there. What else did he say?
:02:37. > :02:40.He is using his patron saints day to urge his countrymen to support the
:02:41. > :02:46.union and is support Scotland. He wants to make this a bit more about
:02:47. > :02:50.the referendum and he is focusing on the exports and ancestry of England
:02:51. > :02:56.itself. He is talking about Newcastle Brown ale, Cornish pasties
:02:57. > :03:01.and Darrington Abbey. His message to Scots is that no matter how great
:03:02. > :03:06.separate components of the UK are, the UK will always be better
:03:07. > :03:12.together. Downing Street put out his message
:03:13. > :03:15.on the Internet on you Tube. He is involving himself in the
:03:16. > :03:20.independence debate again. He doesn't seem to be able to stay
:03:21. > :03:25.away, does he? He is keen to be engaged but he is
:03:26. > :03:31.also a step apart. Earlier in the year, we heard from him saying that
:03:32. > :03:36.David Bowie can say things about the referendum that he can't. He knows
:03:37. > :03:40.that in certain quarters of Scotland he lacks popularity so we don't see
:03:41. > :03:45.him on the front line for the campaign. What we do have is his
:03:46. > :03:50.message coming up from London and earlier this year we had the cabinet
:03:51. > :03:55.sitting in Aberdeen to give a strong message about the broad shoulders of
:03:56. > :04:01.the UK and how important it was too stayed together for the future of
:04:02. > :04:08.oil. So, yes, he is engaged but a step apart, I think.
:04:09. > :04:11.Meanwhile, Alex Salmond has ventured south to Carlisle and is reaching
:04:12. > :04:16.out to people he refers to as Scotland's best pals.
:04:17. > :04:20.Absolutely. It is all about friendship and the French --
:04:21. > :04:24.friendship and ties between the North of England and Scotland. I
:04:25. > :04:29.spoke to him earlier today about what he will speak about in Carlisle
:04:30. > :04:34.this evening. He is keen to emphasise the strength of the
:04:35. > :04:37.relationship and talk as well about future investment and
:04:38. > :04:42.infrastructure. He will make announcements about a feasibility
:04:43. > :04:46.study for the West Coast main line to try and strengthen that, I guess
:04:47. > :04:52.to bring commuters from one side of the border to the other. He will
:04:53. > :04:55.also talk about having a dedicated minister to look at investment
:04:56. > :04:59.between the North of England and Scotland. He is saying it is only
:05:00. > :05:04.possible in the event of Scotland voting for independence.
:05:05. > :05:08.In the last half an hour or so, we have heard that the Scottish
:05:09. > :05:13.Government has delayed a build on corroboration, a controversial
:05:14. > :05:18.bill. Kenny MacAskill, in response to a
:05:19. > :05:22.question, has just made a statement in the chamber saying that the
:05:23. > :05:27.criminal Justice Bill will effectively be delayed until next
:05:28. > :05:32.year. Stage two of the bill was due to go before the committee next
:05:33. > :05:36.week. He is saying that it won't be until next spring that the bill is
:05:37. > :05:44.actually evaluated again. The reason for this is because it has been very
:05:45. > :05:48.controversial. A key element of the bill is about the abolition of the
:05:49. > :05:55.centuries-old use of cooperation in the courts. What MacAskill has said
:05:56. > :06:01.is that there will be a review which is due to report back next April.
:06:02. > :06:06.Until that comes back, there will be no movement on this bill. The other
:06:07. > :06:12.elements on the bill are effectively delayed as well. The opposition
:06:13. > :06:16.welcomed this. There was much warmth around the chamber about the fact
:06:17. > :06:21.the change has taken place. Mr MacAskill has said he still supports
:06:22. > :06:26.the bill and the removal of corroboration in the courts, but
:06:27. > :06:31.this gives the review group time to see how it should go forward in the
:06:32. > :06:36.future. In the widest context, a sign really
:06:37. > :06:40.that the path is clear, that the Scottish Government is not going to
:06:41. > :06:46.allow awkward areas of domestic legislation to get in the road of a
:06:47. > :06:51.bigger battle over independence? That is certainly the sense of it.
:06:52. > :06:56.It was an unexpected move. Concessions have already been made
:06:57. > :07:00.and the review group was set up by Mr MacAskill. The fact it is now
:07:01. > :07:05.delayed until after the referendum gives people an indication that they
:07:06. > :07:07.do not want a difficult domestic matter getting in the way in between
:07:08. > :07:11.now and September. Many thanks for that. Well, the
:07:12. > :07:21.political commentator George Kerevan is with me in the studio. Is that
:07:22. > :07:25.your take on this decision, George? The co-operation Bill has been a
:07:26. > :07:31.thorn in the side of the Scottish Government in recent months --
:07:32. > :07:36.corroboration. And now it is kicked into the long grass. Denis Healey
:07:37. > :07:42.had that famous phrase that if you are in a hole, stop digging. Kenny
:07:43. > :07:47.MacAskill has decided to do that. All he has done is more or less tied
:07:48. > :07:52.the loose ends on what he said last February when the first stage of the
:07:53. > :07:57.bill sneaked through Hollywood. Fiona Hyslop was brought back from a
:07:58. > :08:05.files -- foreign visit to get it through. His real problem is that
:08:06. > :08:09.while everyone broadly... The review said there should be corroboration
:08:10. > :08:16.between cases but the women's movement once it removed because of
:08:17. > :08:19.the problems in getting rape convictions and all serious stuff.
:08:20. > :08:24.McAskill rusted through without putting anything in its place and it
:08:25. > :08:31.is a major plank in Scottish law. It demarcates Scottish law from most
:08:32. > :08:38.other legal systems. That... I don't think we have seen the end of a bill
:08:39. > :08:42.to remove corroboration. After the referendum, we will come back to it
:08:43. > :08:48.and by that time it will be tied up so we know what the alternatives
:08:49. > :08:54.are. Let us talk about David Cameron's speech today. It has gone
:08:55. > :08:58.out on you Tube. It is a mixed message. On the one hand, appealing
:08:59. > :09:03.to Scottish voters and on the other, celebrating England and
:09:04. > :09:11.Englishness. How easy is it to combine those? I think he may be
:09:12. > :09:16.digging his own hole. It is very unusual for the senior politician
:09:17. > :09:21.from the major London parties to get involved in celebrating Englishness.
:09:22. > :09:24.Somehow, you and I and everyone in Scotland regardless of where we
:09:25. > :09:28.stand on the referendum are happy to be Scots and ditto Wales and
:09:29. > :09:33.Northern Ireland. There is a slight unease I have always found in major
:09:34. > :09:38.politicians in England about celebrating Englishness. I don't
:09:39. > :09:44.know why. I think Englishness should be celebrated as it is a great
:09:45. > :09:50.liberal -- liberal tradition and they ended slavery in the world. But
:09:51. > :09:59.Cameron has been shy of celebrating Englishness. If, as a by-product of
:10:00. > :10:03.doing this today and the rest of the species -- speech, the media down
:10:04. > :10:08.South Wilts report the celebration of Englishness, if it plays to
:10:09. > :10:15.UKIP's agenda than they may have made a big mistake. He obviously has
:10:16. > :10:20.that challenge from UKIP in the back of his mind with European elections
:10:21. > :10:25.this time next month of course. He has also talked about Christianity.
:10:26. > :10:29.Again, another issue that has been off the table traditionally for a
:10:30. > :10:37.British Prime Minister. He is going into areas which others have not
:10:38. > :10:42.touched. As I say, he is dealing with a short-term agenda, as he is
:10:43. > :10:47.worried about UKIP winning or overtaking the Tory party in next
:10:48. > :10:54.month 's Euro elections which sell certainly don't -- do if the polls
:10:55. > :11:00.hold but I worry that he is undermining his pace -- case in the
:11:01. > :11:06.longer term. People will want to know why they are not debating
:11:07. > :11:11.face-to-face. His venture over the border today is tweaking that rope.
:11:12. > :11:17.Before we go to the chamber to hear the debate, Alex Salmond has gone to
:11:18. > :11:22.Carlisle and is speaking to English voters, or rather an English
:11:23. > :11:30.audience, but he is looking back to a Scottish electorate. He is saying
:11:31. > :11:34.that English people will remain Scotland's closest friends. He must
:11:35. > :11:39.be appealing to a degree of concern here in Scotland that that might not
:11:40. > :11:44.be the case in the event of Scotland going independent?
:11:45. > :11:51.He plays well south of the border. David Cameron's negative poll
:11:52. > :11:55.ratings are quite bad. There is no great problem for him to go across
:11:56. > :11:58.the border, Alex Salmond. He is trying to make the general point
:11:59. > :12:03.that post independence, if it comes, there will be the social
:12:04. > :12:08.union. He just has to say that and smile and he makes the point. The
:12:09. > :12:16.London media and David Cameron will come back at him, but his presence,
:12:17. > :12:23.beaming and Bonner me in Carlisle says it all. -- bon Ami --
:12:24. > :12:27.friendliness. Let's cross live now to the chamber
:12:28. > :12:35.for the live debate on fuel poverty and the cost of living. Here's
:12:36. > :12:40.Labour's spokeswoman Jackie Baillie. It fails to take into account the
:12:41. > :12:44.inflation busting increases in energy bills. Energy action
:12:45. > :12:50.Scotland, using the governments own basis of calculation, believes the
:12:51. > :12:54.number is nearer 900,000 fuel poor households in Scotland. In their
:12:55. > :12:58.recently published fuel poverty monitor, the estimate the figure
:12:59. > :13:03.could be just over 1 million households. That is staggering when
:13:04. > :13:10.you consider that there are 2,400,000 households in Scotland.
:13:11. > :13:14.40% of all households are affected by fuel poverty. That is the highest
:13:15. > :13:19.figure I have ever known and it is truly a national scandal that so
:13:20. > :13:24.many are forced to choose between heating and eating. Scottish Labour
:13:25. > :13:29.believes that a warm, dry home is a basic human right at that fuel
:13:30. > :13:34.poverty has no place in a civilised country and I am sure it is a view
:13:35. > :13:38.shared across the chamber. It is that believe that motivated us to
:13:39. > :13:43.bring forward legislation in the 2001 housing Scotland act. Our
:13:44. > :13:49.commitment was to end fuel poverty by 2016. Ambitious but it was
:13:50. > :13:53.supported by all parties and provided a sharp focus on what
:13:54. > :14:02.mattered and posed a challenge to all of us to deliver. We face levels
:14:03. > :14:06.of fuel poverty estimated to affect 700,000 households then and through
:14:07. > :14:12.our effort it dropped to 200,000 households by the end of 2002. It
:14:13. > :14:19.has since been on the rise, but most sharply in 2000 and now -- 2009. Now
:14:20. > :14:24.it is at the highest level ever. The problem is so acute and yet there is
:14:25. > :14:29.more that we can and should do. With the greatest respect to the
:14:30. > :14:32.Minister, it demands more than a government amendment which is
:14:33. > :14:37.breathtakingly complacent and focuses again on independence. I
:14:38. > :14:44.suppose there is no surprise there. Indeed, the press release blames the
:14:45. > :14:47.Tory UK Government, but where is the ambition in the amendment and the
:14:48. > :14:54.recognition they have a responsibility to help people now?
:14:55. > :15:00.Where is the action? It should give us all pause for thought when people
:15:01. > :15:05.return food to food banks because they can't afford to turn on their
:15:06. > :15:11.cooker due to the cost of fuel. I would understand the SNP blaming
:15:12. > :15:16.others if they were straining every sinew to tackle the problem. But
:15:17. > :15:21.that is not the case, frankly. It is the case that the SNP have
:15:22. > :15:25.underspent their budget, apparently to use on the road. It is the case
:15:26. > :15:29.that they have delayed in delivering money to local authorities but,
:15:30. > :15:37.thankfully, you have allowed them to carry forward the money.
:15:38. > :15:46.Meanwhile people are going to the wall. The Scottish government has
:15:47. > :15:53.committed ?60 million to local authorities. What figure would the
:15:54. > :15:58.Labour government commit? We would match that and look to go further.
:15:59. > :16:04.We set out a range of measures that we would take. It is not just about
:16:05. > :16:09.doing one thing but making sure you get the money out of the door. The
:16:10. > :16:14.Minister is about the size of the budget in her amendment but it is
:16:15. > :16:21.around 79 million pounds per year rolled up over three years to look
:16:22. > :16:27.like a big figure. We need to spend four times that amount to have any
:16:28. > :16:32.hope of meeting the 2016 target. And in any case this government does
:16:33. > :16:37.seem to have a problem of getting money out of the door at the time
:16:38. > :16:41.when no one can deny the scale of the need. We'll leave that debate on
:16:42. > :16:44.fuel poverty for now. But let's get more from the Parliament. Our
:16:45. > :16:50.correspondent Glenn Campbell is there and we can join him now. We
:16:51. > :16:56.will talk more about fuel poverty and the living wage, these teams
:16:57. > :17:01.that Labour are pursuing here this afternoon. But first of all the
:17:02. > :17:04.breaking news in the last hour that the Justice Secretary Kenny
:17:05. > :17:11.MacAskill has decided to put back the legislation which would end the
:17:12. > :17:16.need for Corporation for sources of evidence from more than one source
:17:17. > :17:22.of evidence in criminal cases in Scotland. He confirmed that in the
:17:23. > :17:27.chamber short time ago. Our panel of politicians are here. James Kelly
:17:28. > :17:33.first of all. I think it is a sensible announcement. There was
:17:34. > :17:38.huge disquiet about the way these proposals were being pursued by Mr
:17:39. > :17:44.McAskill and the SNP and there was widespread criticism over the way is
:17:45. > :17:49.to McAskill responded to the recent parliamentary debate on the issue.
:17:50. > :17:54.So it makes sense to take more time to consider them. Do you think that
:17:55. > :17:58.Labour will be able to come in now behind the government and fulfil its
:17:59. > :18:04.manifesto pledge to get rid of the general requirement for
:18:05. > :18:08.corroboration. I think the timespan of one year to examine the issues
:18:09. > :18:12.will allow all parties to look at what is behind the proposals. There
:18:13. > :18:16.was widespread discontent about the way Mr McAskill brought forward his
:18:17. > :18:23.original proposals and we would need to see more evidence to change our
:18:24. > :18:27.position. Jim Pugh of the Liberal Democrats, your party has been
:18:28. > :18:33.critical of the Scottish government on this. Might you change your mind
:18:34. > :18:38.once you see what the former High Court judge has to say. Well our
:18:39. > :18:46.justice spokesperson has been very clear about this that we would not
:18:47. > :18:53.want to get rid of corroboration. The justice secretary himself said
:18:54. > :18:59.there should be no delay in going forward with this. We have now seen
:19:00. > :19:07.a U-turn and it's being put onto the back burner. I do not think it is a
:19:08. > :19:13.U-turn. There is disquiet and there has been lots of representations for
:19:14. > :19:16.a different outcome. But there are groups and organisations out there
:19:17. > :19:21.who need this piece of legislation to be dealt with as well. Especially
:19:22. > :19:26.those facing domestic violence or sexual abuse. I think it is right to
:19:27. > :19:32.take the time to examine the issues and to get this right. Do you think
:19:33. > :19:37.it would have been a mistake to use a majority to force this through
:19:38. > :19:45.Parliament, ask them to back abolition before they saw what the
:19:46. > :19:48.report would suggest might be put in place to ensure that there are
:19:49. > :19:54.sufficient safeguards against wrongful conviction? I think it is
:19:55. > :20:03.credible but the Cabinet Secretary has taken the time to wait and see
:20:04. > :20:08.if we can get this right. Cameron procurement -- Cameron Buchanan from
:20:09. > :20:14.the Conservatives this year. The Cabinet Secretary is clear that he
:20:15. > :20:18.remained committed to abolition. What difference does one year makes.
:20:19. > :20:24.I think he has listened to everyone and gone into reverse gear and we
:20:25. > :20:30.are pleased that he has. It is is a chance to reflect on what might
:20:31. > :20:37.happen. It is a chance for a pause for thought. We can go back to the
:20:38. > :20:43.debates in Parliament. We heard Jackie Baillie talking about fuel
:20:44. > :20:49.poverty. One of the things that she has been pursuing Miss debate is the
:20:50. > :20:55.idea of an energy price freeze. -- in this debate. This is something
:20:56. > :20:59.that Labour has proposed if it wins the next general election. But the
:21:00. > :21:06.proposal has been widely condemned not least by the energy companies.
:21:07. > :21:12.Not at all, I think there is a lot of support for the proposal across
:21:13. > :21:15.Scotland because many families are struggling and cannot comprehend why
:21:16. > :21:19.the energy companies are putting huge price hikes on their bills.
:21:20. > :21:24.Some people are responding to the Labour proposal for a price freeze
:21:25. > :21:27.throughout Scotland and it is sure to be a big feature of the
:21:28. > :21:32.forthcoming general election campaign. Your colleagues in the
:21:33. > :21:42.Coalition at Westminster should have done more to keep in check the cost
:21:43. > :21:53.of fuel? I think you can look at Labour a little critically. It was
:21:54. > :21:58.under their watch that many people came into fuel poverty in the UK.
:21:59. > :22:04.But the Lib Dem and Tory Coalition have actually done is to put half ?1
:22:05. > :22:14.billion into energy efficiency measures, targeting hard to treat
:22:15. > :22:20.homes and people on lower incomes. And also raising the tax threshold
:22:21. > :22:25.throughout Scotland. A quarter of a million people pay no tax at all and
:22:26. > :22:29.2 million people paying less tax. It is about targeting rather than a
:22:30. > :22:36.general freeze so that even the wealthy benefit. Labour said that
:22:37. > :22:41.this price freeze policy will be popular. Why can the SNP not
:22:42. > :22:46.supported? It might be popular but it is disingenuous. Labour created
:22:47. > :22:52.the monopoly that the big six have got now. Labour cannot tell private
:22:53. > :22:59.companies to freeze their prices. Why not? They would need legislation
:23:00. > :23:04.to nationalise the companies to enforce a price freeze and they're
:23:05. > :23:14.not going to do that. The SNP said they would cut prices. The SNP
:23:15. > :23:17.proposal is to take away the green levies, for those not to be put on
:23:18. > :23:24.the customer. The other thing to look at is subsidies that get paid
:23:25. > :23:31.to energy producers. 35 million pounds in subsidies for Hinkley
:23:32. > :23:36.Point. That could be better spent. There is nothing to stop Labour
:23:37. > :23:41.putting up prices beforehand and then raising them afterwards. If
:23:42. > :23:46.there is a price freeze you put them up beforehand and the price would go
:23:47. > :23:50.up. A brief word on the living wage from each of you. Labour using its
:23:51. > :23:53.debating time to argue that it should be requirement of Scottish
:23:54. > :23:59.government procurement that those who win the contract pay their
:24:00. > :24:05.employers and those associated with those contracts the living wage. I
:24:06. > :24:09.do not think it is a good idea to enforce it. I think it will happen
:24:10. > :24:12.if the economy recovers but otherwise it could cause
:24:13. > :24:17.unemployment. It should not be compulsory. Given that the SNP has
:24:18. > :24:27.pursued living wage policies, why not go further and put it into
:24:28. > :24:34.legislation for procurement. Well the Labour Party have not done that.
:24:35. > :24:40.I will speak in the debate this afternoon. I do not know how the
:24:41. > :24:45.Labour Party would incorporate this into document. Because Glasgow City
:24:46. > :24:53.Council today said they cannot do that. I think this is an excellent
:24:54. > :24:59.opportunity. There are ?10 billion of public contracts covered by the
:25:00. > :25:06.procurement bill and this is a great opportunity to extend the living
:25:07. > :25:11.wage to many of the 400,000 people, including 256,000 women workers not
:25:12. > :25:20.covered by the living wage. I think the legal arguments of the SNP are
:25:21. > :25:27.diminishing by the minute. Professor Christopher McCrudden showed it can
:25:28. > :25:36.be tied to contracts and included in procurement. Labour council said
:25:37. > :25:47.they could not do it. We have just seen Vince Cable announced the
:25:48. > :25:52.minimum wage is to go up 3%. On top of that a quarter of a million
:25:53. > :26:00.people are taken out of tax. And regarding the living wage, we do
:26:01. > :26:10.support that where it is affordable. Thank you very much indeed.
:26:11. > :26:17.And we will botch the debate in the chamber at this afternoon with great
:26:18. > :26:21.interest. -- watch the debate. Let's go back to the chamber now and
:26:22. > :26:29.more on the debate on fuel poverty and the cost of living.
:26:30. > :26:34.I'm listening to what Jackie Baillie is saying there. We have got our
:26:35. > :26:39.money out. There was a delay at the start of last year in funding
:26:40. > :26:42.because the UK government did not publish their guidelines and also
:26:43. > :26:49.the local authorities had to procure. But this year the funding
:26:50. > :26:54.is out. Local authorities were told of the money they were getting in
:26:55. > :27:01.March and they have contracted to spend all the money that they are
:27:02. > :27:06.given. My understanding from local authorities is that you expended --
:27:07. > :27:14.extended the deadline and given them longer. You have underspent your
:27:15. > :27:20.budget for the past two years. It is being spent in energy efficiency
:27:21. > :27:25.measures in homes, we are delivering more energy efficiency measures in
:27:26. > :27:29.Scotland head of population than the rest of the UK and will continue to
:27:30. > :27:33.do that and that is because of the funding that the Scottish government
:27:34. > :27:39.has contributed. It is not just me saying that but the energy
:27:40. > :27:45.companies. They are all telling us that we are delivering more energy
:27:46. > :27:51.efficiency measures per head of population than in the rest of the
:27:52. > :27:54.UK. We are consistently doing that and spending more money in fuel
:27:55. > :27:59.poverty than the previous Labour administration. We have also
:28:00. > :28:03.committed in our white paper that we will remove that obligation from the
:28:04. > :28:07.companies and put it on public expenses to ensure that energy
:28:08. > :28:11.efficiency measures continue and there will be a year on year
:28:12. > :28:28.reduction to consumers in Scotland. Not simply a temporary measure as
:28:29. > :28:33.the Labour Party are proposing. Thank you very much. I take the
:28:34. > :28:38.opportunity at the outset to move the amendment that stands in my
:28:39. > :28:42.name. Fuel poverty is something that impacts on every household in
:28:43. > :28:46.Scotland to some extent. We heard figures suggesting up to 40% of
:28:47. > :28:52.Scottish owned are now technically defined as being in fuel poverty.
:28:53. > :28:57.But yet for many more fuel bills are becoming a larger monthly expense
:28:58. > :29:01.and having a bigger impact on the way in which household budget have
:29:02. > :29:05.to be managed. There are many people out there who we should be concerned
:29:06. > :29:10.about. Yet when we talk in the debate about fuel poverty I think it
:29:11. > :29:16.is irresponsible of us to allow any particular political party to
:29:17. > :29:20.attempt to claim the high ground. It has become a priority for us to deal
:29:21. > :29:25.with this and what people expect, those currently suffering fuel
:29:26. > :29:29.poverty, is to see politicians work more closely together to achieve
:29:30. > :29:34.these object tiffs. I will try to work more closely with others in
:29:35. > :29:39.this chamber but unfortunately there is the prep this lemming other
:29:40. > :29:45.people for the mistakes that got us where we are today. The great irony
:29:46. > :29:51.is that the Labour Party itself whilst in government did a great
:29:52. > :29:56.deal to achieve the things that they today are complaining about. We have
:29:57. > :30:01.heard a great deal about the problems... Let me continue. We have
:30:02. > :30:06.heard a great deal today about the big six energy suppliers and the
:30:07. > :30:09.fact that that monopoly position they almost achieved allows them to
:30:10. > :30:15.manipulate the market somehow. Yet it was under the watch of Labour
:30:16. > :30:23.that the number of major suppliers shrank from 15 in the year 2000 to a
:30:24. > :30:30.mere six by 2010. In that time gas bills more than doubled. And we have
:30:31. > :30:33.also seen Labour opposing the competition enquiry which would do
:30:34. > :30:39.something to fight against the monopoly position achieved by energy
:30:40. > :30:44.suppliers today. The fact is much of what Labour and Ed Miliband himself
:30:45. > :30:49.up a post in the past would have meant energy supply or energy costs
:30:50. > :30:56.would have been very much higher today than they would otherwise be.
:30:57. > :31:02.Ed Miliband planned to add ?193 per year to fuel bills and now he wants
:31:03. > :31:14.a target for clean electricity for 2030 that would add 125 pounds per
:31:15. > :31:18.year to build a price as of today. I am committed to working with
:31:19. > :31:24.everyone in this chamber to tackle fuel poverty. When Ed Miliband was
:31:25. > :31:30.energy Secretary Bill is felt by ?100. Under David Cameron, bills
:31:31. > :31:38.have risen by ?300. This is a useful point to make full a different
:31:39. > :31:44.reason to the SNP. During 2008, energy prices peaked with oil at a
:31:45. > :31:50.value of 140 dollars a barrel and in nine months dropped $100 a barrel.
:31:51. > :31:58.That is why energy prices dropped under Labour. It had nothing to
:31:59. > :32:06.do... In fact, it was in spite of the efforts of the great Ed Miliband
:32:07. > :32:09.himself. Since that conservatives have been in government, we have
:32:10. > :32:14.seen the errors of the ways of previous governments and we have
:32:15. > :32:18.taken the opportunity to move quickly to simplify tariffs and
:32:19. > :32:22.enable faster switching for those who want to take advantage of the
:32:23. > :32:27.opportunities in the marketplace. In the most recent budget, we
:32:28. > :32:32.introduced green Lebanese -- levies and introduced other mothers --
:32:33. > :32:37.measures to promote energy efficiency. We will go ahead and
:32:38. > :32:42.make sure that we have a truly competitive system of energy supply
:32:43. > :32:48.which will result in more prices for consumers and there will be
:32:49. > :32:52.sanctions and penalties to make sure these are properly enforced. At the
:32:53. > :32:58.same time, we have taken measures to protect winter fuel payments for
:32:59. > :33:03.millions of pensioners across the UK. We have reinforced cold-weather
:33:04. > :33:08.payments and make energy companies support the most vulnerable. New
:33:09. > :33:10.funding for energy-saving improvements in homes will benefit
:33:11. > :33:17.those all over the country, including Scotland. Reducing our
:33:18. > :33:23.dependence on expensive imported energy sources will also have the
:33:24. > :33:27.effect on cutting energy costs. Tax breaks for companies exploring for
:33:28. > :33:32.shale gas can begin the process of taking us into a position similar to
:33:33. > :33:38.that we enjoy a where energy prices are falling and are falling both for
:33:39. > :33:43.industry and domestic consumers. There is so much we could achieve by
:33:44. > :33:49.working together. Come on, let's work together for the benefit of
:33:50. > :33:54.those who need our help. Let us speak again to Josh. I wonder
:33:55. > :34:02.about the timing of this debate, Labour debate. The focus is fuel
:34:03. > :34:07.poverty and yet it is 15 Celsius out there. Have they miss timed this
:34:08. > :34:14.challenge? That was quite a sparky debate. This is about the
:34:15. > :34:20.Westminster election next year and the general election. As James said
:34:21. > :34:27.in the garden lobby. The one policy that Labour has that has popular
:34:28. > :34:34.resonance in the last year is Ed Miliband's promised to freeze energy
:34:35. > :34:38.prices for a year. He needs to keep pumping that up. The debate is
:34:39. > :34:43.partly about publicising that commitment because labour is not
:34:44. > :34:52.doing that well in the polls. It is ahead of the Tories but the Tories
:34:53. > :34:56.are coming up. If you go into polls on which party has the better
:34:57. > :35:01.economic policies, the Tories are 20 points ahead of Labour. Labour has
:35:02. > :35:06.to do something if it is to win next year. I think they feel that energy
:35:07. > :35:13.issues and fuel poverty may be the thing to get them over the line. But
:35:14. > :35:21.is it possible for them to make a credible case? We heard from the
:35:22. > :35:25.MSP's that there is not just doubt about whether it is possible and how
:35:26. > :35:32.long it can last and everything else? Everybody blames everybody in
:35:33. > :35:37.government. The problem is what do you then do about it? The price
:35:38. > :35:44.freeze is a sticking plaster. One have to worry that when we get to
:35:45. > :35:48.this winter, the winter before the general election, all the energy
:35:49. > :35:51.companies have to do is ramp up their prices so that when the price
:35:52. > :35:57.freeze comes in they are not affected. We need to sort the energy
:35:58. > :36:02.market. It is fundamentally flawed. Something serious has to be done and
:36:03. > :36:07.none of the parties are serious. They have to split up the energy
:36:08. > :36:12.companies. They generate electricity and they then distribute it and in
:36:13. > :36:18.between that, they fiddle the prices. They will have to be split
:36:19. > :36:23.up so there are separate producers and distributors and until that is
:36:24. > :36:26.done the market will be flawed. There is an appetite within the
:36:27. > :36:31.Labour Party to take radical action, but if real wages start to
:36:32. > :36:36.rise above the rate of inflation and we are pretty close now to that
:36:37. > :36:41.point, will voters in six months' time, if that is what is happened,
:36:42. > :36:47.say the crisis is over and things are getting better? Leave that
:36:48. > :36:51.issue. That is the other thing for Labour. They have gone strongly of
:36:52. > :36:57.the cost -- on the cost of living issue. This is the first time since
:36:58. > :37:00.the 1930s that we have had a recession over an extended period of
:37:01. > :37:06.time where living standards have fallen sharply. We had rampant
:37:07. > :37:10.inflation and that it into real spending power. The Conservative
:37:11. > :37:15.government has been lucky this last six months. The pound has gone
:37:16. > :37:21.shooting up and when it goes up in value it drops down the rate of
:37:22. > :37:24.inflation. But it is not anything internal in the economy. With the
:37:25. > :37:29.combination of falling inflation and more jobs about, people might feel
:37:30. > :37:35.more comfortable. The feel-good factor might return and if Cameron
:37:36. > :37:38.can marshal that, it gives him a chance to win a general election
:37:39. > :37:41.next year. We'll talk again in a moment.
:37:42. > :37:44.As we've been hearing, it's St George's Day and David Cameron and
:37:45. > :37:48.Alex Salmond have been making their rival pitches to Scots voters. But
:37:49. > :37:52.what, you may ask, do people in England make of the prospect of
:37:53. > :37:54.Scotland leaving the Union? Our referendum correspondent, Laura
:37:55. > :37:55.Bicker, is in Stratford-upon-Avon, the birthplace of William
:37:56. > :38:11.Shakespeare, to find out. Oh, Scotland, Scotland, wrote the
:38:12. > :38:18.Swan of a bond. But in the town of Shakespeare's birth, this issue is
:38:19. > :38:23.largely passing them by. They are focused on celebrating the English
:38:24. > :38:29.bard's birth. But when pushed, those at this community arts project were
:38:30. > :38:39.aware of the debate. Is there a vote coming up? I know that Scotland
:38:40. > :38:42.might want to leave the UK. I fully understand why they would want
:38:43. > :38:50.independence, so it has a good and bad point. This sociologist believes
:38:51. > :38:53.the level of English engagement with the Scottish referendum depends on
:38:54. > :38:58.which part of the country you live and how much of the campaign you
:38:59. > :39:05.have listened to. Too often, the debate seems to have descended into
:39:06. > :39:15.whether Scotland will be better off. As if it is in England's gift. As a
:39:16. > :39:23.result, the Better Together campaign has missed an opportunity. In a town
:39:24. > :39:29.where the union flag is used to your tourists into shops, this is an
:39:30. > :39:37.argument many do not understand -- to entice tourists. Politicians have
:39:38. > :39:42.upset Scots so it is difficult. Can you see why they might want
:39:43. > :39:48.independence? They have a better deal, with free prescriptions. The
:39:49. > :39:51.English are detached and we think it will not affect tough whereas it
:39:52. > :40:02.will impact our lives. will not affect tough whereas it
:40:03. > :40:07.vaulting ambitions... Of course, people here will have no part to
:40:08. > :40:11.play when it comes to the vote in September. Some may watch from the
:40:12. > :40:19.wings and others may want a front row seat. As for the Scottish play?
:40:20. > :40:26.It's yours, it's yours. But we'll do it here if that's OK. The flag is
:40:27. > :40:30.taken down to mark England's national day. There are now five
:40:31. > :40:34.months until the finale in Scotland, until we know whether this
:40:35. > :40:40.could be, or not to be, the shape of things to come.
:40:41. > :40:48.Let us head a little further south to Westminster. Parliament is still
:40:49. > :40:51.in resets. Just as well, perhaps, because MPs are out campaigning hard
:40:52. > :40:59.ahead of next month 's European elections. Letters get more from
:41:00. > :41:04.David Porter. David, -- let us get more. No rest for MPs with the
:41:05. > :41:11.elections looming. It seems a big test for the main parties. What is
:41:12. > :41:18.the mood there? Euro elections have traditionally been elections where
:41:19. > :41:27.Euro -- MPs go, we'll get around to that when we can. But they are
:41:28. > :41:32.important through -- for the three main parties. UKIP could push the
:41:33. > :41:37.Tories into third place and may even poll as many votes as labour in the
:41:38. > :41:46.Euro elections so it is a key test for the three parties. How will they
:41:47. > :41:53.manage their campaigns and see off the threat from UKIP? A particular
:41:54. > :41:58.challenge for the Conservatives. It would seem David Cameron is honing
:41:59. > :42:04.his message very much to deal with that. We hear him talk in the last
:42:05. > :42:08.few days about Englishness, we've heard him talk about Britain as a
:42:09. > :42:14.Christian countries. They are unusual campaigning themes? All Tory
:42:15. > :42:19.leaders have to walk a tightrope over Europe and David Cameron is no
:42:20. > :42:23.exception. He has some on the right of his party who say they want him
:42:24. > :42:27.to toughen up his stance on Europe. He has promised that if there is a
:42:28. > :42:33.conservative government after the last election he will renegotiate
:42:34. > :42:37.Britain's heart within the EU and would promised a referendum. UKIP
:42:38. > :42:42.says that does not go far enough and they want a referendum straightaway.
:42:43. > :42:47.What we are seeing from the campaigning from the three main
:42:48. > :42:53.parties is that it is being put the UKIP filter, if you like, in that
:42:54. > :42:59.they are putting their arguments and finessing their arguments according
:43:00. > :43:03.to the threat the sea from UKIP. At the same time, David Cameron can't
:43:04. > :43:09.present himself as a little England because he has the threat from the
:43:10. > :43:13.SNP to deal with as well? Yes, he has the minor point of the Scottish
:43:14. > :43:18.referendum on the 18th of September which is why today in his St
:43:19. > :43:24.George's Day address he was making such play on this. The UK is better
:43:25. > :43:29.together and stronger together and that Scotland is an integral part of
:43:30. > :43:34.that, he is said to an audience in England and to an audience in
:43:35. > :43:39.Scotland. He says that is exactly how he would like to keep it. They
:43:40. > :43:43.have been rather drowned out in the debate so far on a UK level, but
:43:44. > :43:48.what have the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats been making the
:43:49. > :43:52.focus of their campaigns? It is an astute judgement in that there is
:43:53. > :43:58.some frustration in the Labour Party and the Lib Dems that this is being
:43:59. > :44:02.seen as an Eichmann between UKIP and the Conservatives. The Lib Dems will
:44:03. > :44:06.launch their Euro campaign tomorrow. If you like, they are the most
:44:07. > :44:11.Europhile of parties and they are very much making a pitch that the
:44:12. > :44:14.European Union is good for Britain and they will put positive cases for
:44:15. > :44:19.that. We have seen head-to-head debates between Nigel Farage and
:44:20. > :44:24.Nick Clegg on that very issue in the past couple of weeks. As for Labour,
:44:25. > :44:30.they will want to put the argument to some extent as far as they see it
:44:31. > :44:33.that these elections are a dry run for the 2015 general election and
:44:34. > :44:37.they want to make sure their campaigning machine is in order
:44:38. > :44:41.because they know that, as well as the Euro elections and the Scottish
:44:42. > :44:46.referendum in a year's time, there will be a general election
:44:47. > :44:51.throughout the UK. Do all the main political parties at Westminster
:44:52. > :44:55.take the view that they would take a kicking from UKIP whatever happens
:44:56. > :45:01.next month? Throughout different parts of the UK, there is a feeling
:45:02. > :45:05.that UKIP could be the ones to beat. As far as the Conservatives are
:45:06. > :45:09.concerned, they know many of their natural supporters could be tempted
:45:10. > :45:21.to support for UKIP, particularly as a protest vote. Traditional Labour
:45:22. > :45:25.voters in the North of England... We had the launch of the UKIP campaign
:45:26. > :45:27.in Sheffield yesterday so they are going from Labour vote -- for Labour
:45:28. > :45:41.voters as well. Thank you. Well, let's pick up again on that
:45:42. > :45:51.debate in Parliament. MSP 's are now in open debate. We would move the
:45:52. > :45:55.spending on to having the cheaper renewable energy which subsequent
:45:56. > :46:03.generations will miss certainly benefit from. It is a fact as Terry
:46:04. > :46:05.McAllister said that it is unsustainable to keep loading the
:46:06. > :46:11.cost onto consumers directly through energy bills as this hits the lowest
:46:12. > :46:18.paid and most needy. But the taxpayer paid for nuclear, coal and
:46:19. > :46:22.oil power stations in the past. He went on to save the taxpayer is the
:46:23. > :46:26.obvious candidate to foot more the bill but this requires governments
:46:27. > :46:32.to be more open about spending priorities. He was talking about the
:46:33. > :46:44.UK government. The Scottish government is tackling the problem
:46:45. > :46:50.with the powers that we have. As colleagues will be aware fuel
:46:51. > :46:58.poverty is very high in my own constituency. Estimates suggest they
:46:59. > :47:02.could be up around 68% as opposed to the national average of around half
:47:03. > :47:08.that. So I welcome the debate will be at three. I do not see their
:47:09. > :47:15.necessary being a meeting of minds being taken from this. I accept that
:47:16. > :47:18.the Labour price policy freeze has been successful in putting the SNP
:47:19. > :47:23.government in a spin. Had three different responses across three
:47:24. > :47:28.days from three different ministers. But I do think it runs the risk of
:47:29. > :47:32.increasing bills and producing competition. And hurting small
:47:33. > :47:40.suppliers and so reinforcing the domination of the big six. The Tory
:47:41. > :47:45.amendment points this out but then runs at the customary rant about
:47:46. > :47:50.onshore wind. Then we have the Minister's press release from this
:47:51. > :47:56.morning suggesting it is all the fault of Westminster and that
:47:57. > :48:03.independence is somehow some magic bullet. That is utter nonsense. Not
:48:04. > :48:07.just in relation to the potential impact on renewables are
:48:08. > :48:15.implications for customer bills. Seems to betray a complete
:48:16. > :48:35.misunderstanding also of how eco-works. It is only one area that
:48:36. > :48:40.has been subject to reductions. ?450 million has been spent to improve
:48:41. > :48:49.energy efficiency in the private rented sector. So not an attack on
:48:50. > :48:54.the fuel poor as portrayed by the Minister but quite the contrary. A
:48:55. > :49:00.packet of measures that has enabled ?50 to be taken off average
:49:01. > :49:04.household bills. There are concerns about the operation of the energy
:49:05. > :49:12.market and so it is welcome but Ofgem have referred the market to
:49:13. > :49:16.the competition markets authority. Tough action based on a detailed and
:49:17. > :49:20.independent assessment of the state of competition in the UK market will
:49:21. > :49:26.take place. There are other measures, cold weather payments for
:49:27. > :49:30.example, winter fuel payments to over 1 million households. He energy
:49:31. > :49:38.bills simpler and clearer and encouraging collective switching
:49:39. > :49:45.schemes. 21,000 households having benefited by an average of ?131 so
:49:46. > :49:51.far today. Certainly not enough but far from the picture painted by the
:49:52. > :49:53.Minister and some of her backbench colleagues and a more robust and
:49:54. > :49:57.sustainable response to justify public concerns about fuel costs
:49:58. > :50:03.than a counter-productive price freeze. Successive governments north
:50:04. > :50:07.and south of the border of all political persuasions I believe have
:50:08. > :50:11.prioritised the fight against fuel poverty but in spite of that the
:50:12. > :50:17.number of households affect it has never been higher, not least in my
:50:18. > :50:22.own constituency. That is not acceptable but neither will it be
:50:23. > :50:26.addressed by either scapegoating. I would urge Parliament in spite of
:50:27. > :50:32.the impending entertainment of September to gather together in the
:50:33. > :50:38.common cause to address the problems that we all accept is out of
:50:39. > :50:47.control. We now move to three minute speeches.
:50:48. > :50:52.I think it is a scandal that we are having to discuss fuel poverty in
:50:53. > :50:59.energy rich Scotland. That in itself quite clearly shows the failure is
:51:00. > :51:05.of the current system presided over by the Westminster government past
:51:06. > :51:14.and present. Reading Jackie Baillie's motion today I was filled
:51:15. > :51:18.with some dread because it mentions reform of the energy market. Why
:51:19. > :51:24.does that fill me with dread a well as has been pointed out previously,
:51:25. > :51:29.in the year 2000 there were three generating companies and 14 energy
:51:30. > :51:34.suppliers in the UK. After the last set of labour reforms we were left
:51:35. > :51:40.with the big six which we have all been moaning about to one degree or
:51:41. > :51:47.another today. The big six, which has on their boards many former
:51:48. > :51:55.Labour parliamentarians. Someone did all right out of the last set of
:51:56. > :52:07.reforms. However, the public did not benefit from Ed Miliband's reforms.
:52:08. > :52:13.I seem to recall a distinct number of SNP either former or current
:52:14. > :52:21.employees of some of the big six. Does he denied that? I'm talking
:52:22. > :52:25.about members of the board. The folk with the real influence who have
:52:26. > :52:31.moved from Parliament at the boards of the big six after Labour's last
:52:32. > :52:38.set of reforms. Let us take a look at some of the issues we face.
:52:39. > :52:45.Incomes have been cut right across this country. Particularly of the
:52:46. > :52:56.very poor and very vulnerable in our society. Well we have to leave that
:52:57. > :52:59.animated debate for now. MSPs have been paying tribute to the Lothians
:53:00. > :53:05.MSP Margo MacDonald who died earlier this month. During a debate on a
:53:06. > :53:08.motion of condolence, the First Minister Alex Salmond described her
:53:09. > :53:16.as the finest parliamentarian Holyrood had ever seen.
:53:17. > :53:22.It is hard to overstate what the force of political nature she was in
:53:23. > :53:28.the 1970s. I first met some 37 years ago and she spoke at a meeting in St
:53:29. > :53:32.Andrews. We gave her a lift back home and I was relishing the
:53:33. > :53:35.opportunity to give further benefit of my student analysis of Scottish
:53:36. > :53:42.independence. No sooner had we left St Andrews then she fell asleep and
:53:43. > :53:46.slept the whole way! It was the only time in almost 40 years I ever got a
:53:47. > :53:52.word in edgeways. And in the past 15 years she has simply been the finest
:53:53. > :53:56.parliamentarian this chamber has ever seen. It is hard to imagine
:53:57. > :53:59.anyone else in Scotland would have had the profile, the talent and the
:54:00. > :54:06.sheer presence to be elected three times as an independent candidate to
:54:07. > :54:10.this Parliament. As an MSP she pursued a wide range of courses
:54:11. > :54:15.regardless of their popularity. She was one of the first to call for an
:54:16. > :54:19.enquiry into the cost of this Parliament building and spoke up for
:54:20. > :54:25.the health and well-being of Edinburgh's sex workers. Recently
:54:26. > :54:29.she was a staunch advocate for the right of the terminally ill to
:54:30. > :54:36.choose the manner of their death. And almost as important was the way
:54:37. > :54:41.she fought for those causes, with immense personal warmth. She put
:54:42. > :54:47.people before party or ideology. She was able to understand and empathise
:54:48. > :54:50.with those who opposed to abuse. And there'll be a special programme
:54:51. > :54:54.looking back on the life of Margo MacDonald tomorrow night on BBC One
:54:55. > :55:01.Scotland, at 10:35pm. George is still with us. Just before
:55:02. > :55:07.we left that they, it was starting to pick up and to move from fuel
:55:08. > :55:11.poverty to a wider debate about income, about the squeezed middle.
:55:12. > :55:16.We have heard a lot about that. Labour, are they right to make that
:55:17. > :55:21.a central theme of their campaigning? They have been trying
:55:22. > :55:27.to do that now for two years. There is an issue about whether in the
:55:28. > :55:32.period between now and the general election next year, that living
:55:33. > :55:39.standards start to rise at least appreciably enough for people to get
:55:40. > :55:44.a grip on things and the feel-good factor starts to click in. I'm not
:55:45. > :55:49.so sure. At the moment although there are more people in jobs where
:55:50. > :55:52.does not seem to be any significant rise in retail spending, which tends
:55:53. > :55:58.to suggest that most people are still counting their pennies. Still
:55:59. > :56:04.slightly cautious about how they live their lives and secure their
:56:05. > :56:09.jobs. Nothing but politicians say is going to change that. People have
:56:10. > :56:13.had five years of reduced living standards and it will take a long
:56:14. > :56:16.time to recover. For the Labour Party there are central theme is
:56:17. > :56:21.that something odd is happening across Europe and also in America
:56:22. > :56:24.and the wealth of the nation is now not linked in the way it used to be
:56:25. > :56:29.to the affluence of ordinary families. That is the theory at
:56:30. > :56:35.least. If there is some truth in that? It is nice but the Labour
:56:36. > :56:41.Party and caught up on that. Wages as a share of national income has
:56:42. > :56:51.been flat for several decades. The reason that we had a boom during the
:56:52. > :56:58.last decade is that people were able to take equity from their houses
:56:59. > :57:02.when prices rose. So the last boom was not due to a proper rise in
:57:03. > :57:05.living standards. That does suggest that something is seriously wrong
:57:06. > :57:12.with the whole Western capitalist model. And unless we get back to
:57:13. > :57:15.some situation where productivity starts to rise and that feeds
:57:16. > :57:23.through to the wages, then we will be back to where we where with the
:57:24. > :57:29.boom and bust. Labour have picked up on this, one former adviser to
:57:30. > :57:35.Barack Obama has been hammering away with this message. They want to
:57:36. > :57:46.campaign this year and next on this theme. Will it be the same here, you
:57:47. > :57:52.expect the same? I'm sceptical of the fact that all three of the major
:57:53. > :57:58.Westminster parties have been hiring so-called campaign experts from
:57:59. > :58:03.north America. It does suggest to me that there is a lack of collective
:58:04. > :58:07.imagination in UK politics. American politics are very different and much
:58:08. > :58:14.more polarised than they are here. So I do not think that that is going
:58:15. > :58:25.to produce a great rejuvenation of British politics. And there we must
:58:26. > :58:30.leave it. Many thanks. That is all we have time for this week. We're
:58:31. > :58:32.back next week at the same time and you can keep up-to-date with the
:58:33. > :58:39.debate in the Scottish Parliament on the BBC's democracy live website
:58:40. > :58:43.with full analysis on BBC online. From all of us here thank you for
:58:44. > :59:44.your company this afternoon and have a very good afternoon.
:59:45. > :59:47.The multi-award winning The Artist...