:00:18. > :00:22.Hello, welcome to the Scottish Parliament. It has been a busy
:00:22. > :00:27.morning in the chamber, MSPs have been debating and he sectarian
:00:27. > :00:31.legislation, which has been rushed through. That could come up at
:00:31. > :00:34.First Minister's Questions, which is about to start, and so could the
:00:34. > :00:42.news from Edinburgh City Council that the cost of cancelling the
:00:42. > :00:45.trams project could reach �750 million.
:00:45. > :00:53.First Minister's Questions is already under way. Alex Salmond is
:00:53. > :00:56.on his feet, as well as Iain Gray. We wanted to support legislation
:00:56. > :01:02.against sectarianism, but I expressed serious concerns about
:01:02. > :01:07.the timetable. He told me that the football clubs were demanding he
:01:07. > :01:12.legislate before the season starts. Yesterday, both Rangers and Celtic
:01:12. > :01:16.said that the legislation was too rushed. The Law Society, the
:01:16. > :01:20.churches and the convenor of the justice committee all agreed. The
:01:20. > :01:26.lord advocate said the Bill does not necessarily have to be in
:01:26. > :01:36.before the football season. Does he now regret not acting for four
:01:36. > :01:36.
:01:37. > :01:42.years and having to squeeze this With permission, I listened this
:01:42. > :01:47.morning to the comments that were made across the chamber. I always
:01:47. > :01:55.listen to the partners that we have in an enterprise to eliminate
:01:55. > :02:01.sectarianism on display in Scottish football. I except that we need
:02:01. > :02:07.consensus. On this issue above all, I want consensus, across the
:02:07. > :02:11.chamber, across the party organisations. I would ask
:02:11. > :02:15.parliament at 12:30pm if they would agree, and I hope unanimously, or
:02:15. > :02:20.nearly, the bill at stage one, to allow consideration of the Bill to
:02:20. > :02:23.continue. I will then propose that business managers, in consultation
:02:24. > :02:27.with the convenor of the justice committee, discuss a new timetable,
:02:27. > :02:31.which will allow for further consideration and evidence to be
:02:31. > :02:35.taken, in advance of for more consideration and amendments at
:02:36. > :02:43.stage two. Stage Three would then follow in the usual manner for a
:02:43. > :02:47.public appeal. The intention behind such a timetable for discussion,
:02:47. > :02:53.for the Bill to be passed by the end of this year. If the parliament
:02:53. > :03:00.agrees in principle, I will ask for business manager discussions to be
:03:00. > :03:06.initiated. What we say in this place on this issue has huge
:03:06. > :03:09.ramifications across society. I hope that we can allow for the
:03:09. > :03:14.probability, the certainty, that each and every single one of us
:03:14. > :03:18.wants to eliminate sectarianism and sectarian displays from Scottish
:03:18. > :03:24.football. That each and every one of us wants to eliminated from
:03:24. > :03:31.Scottish society. What we do as a parliament and how we avoided the
:03:31. > :03:36.opportunity to attack each other is a very important part of that
:03:37. > :03:41.message. I hope that the parliament will accept there is his huge
:03:41. > :03:46.genuine urgency in this matter, and will also accept that this
:03:46. > :03:56.government wishes to achieve the consensus within Parliament, and
:03:56. > :04:01.
:04:01. > :04:05.I welcome the fact that the First Minister has listened to those
:04:05. > :04:12.concerns around the timetable. It is the intention on decide to
:04:12. > :04:17.support the principles of this Bill. I made clear that we want to
:04:17. > :04:24.support the government in legislating against bigotry in
:04:24. > :04:30.football and anywhere else. But to achieve consensus, we do have to
:04:30. > :04:37.try and get this right. This week's examination of the bell has not
:04:37. > :04:43.helped with that. -- the bill. At the Justice Committee, the minister
:04:43. > :04:48.did struggle to clarify what actions would be caught by this
:04:49. > :04:53.legislation. The lord advocate had to return to the committee
:04:54. > :04:58.yesterday in order to provide further clarification. I would ask
:04:58. > :05:02.the First Minister, in the spirit of achieving consensus, to clarify
:05:02. > :05:12.now how actions such as singing the national anthem or blessing
:05:12. > :05:13.
:05:13. > :05:16.yourself could be considered a What I would advise him to do is
:05:16. > :05:20.look at the words of the minister and the lord advocate, making his
:05:20. > :05:25.first appearance before the committee. As was explained by the
:05:25. > :05:31.lord advocate, these things depend on the facts, circumstances and
:05:31. > :05:41.context. That has always been the case. I am going to avoid the
:05:41. > :05:43.
:05:43. > :05:48.temptation to say... We have to be prepared to recognise that each
:05:48. > :05:51.others as a bona fide interest in driving sectarianism out of
:05:51. > :05:55.football and society. The legislation that has been put
:05:55. > :06:02.forward is clear in its intent and purpose, and it can be clearly
:06:02. > :06:06.implemented. The objections that can be raised on not objections
:06:06. > :06:12.about intent or content, they are objections about whether enough
:06:12. > :06:19.time is allowed to allow wider society and the interest groups
:06:19. > :06:23.that we have to carry with us, to have their say on the bell. -- on
:06:23. > :06:27.the bill. That was one of the points made earlier. What I am
:06:27. > :06:34.offering to the chamber is exactly the opportunity to do that. Given
:06:35. > :06:37.that offer and given what people said in the debate and given the
:06:37. > :06:43.reservoir of goodwill towards a parliament prepared to take action
:06:43. > :06:52.in this matter, from people across Scottish society, can we not now go
:06:52. > :06:58.for that on that basis? -- go forward? If he listens, I am saying
:06:58. > :07:04.that we can go forward on that basis. That does not mean that we
:07:04. > :07:08.can sidestep the difficult questions about legislation and --
:07:08. > :07:13.on such a difficult and sensitive area. It does not mean that we can
:07:13. > :07:18.sidestep questions about the way in which the legislation, which we
:07:18. > :07:23.want to see in place, will be implemented. There have been
:07:23. > :07:28.concerns raised not only about the timescale this week but also, for
:07:28. > :07:32.example, about resourcing the implementation of this legislation.
:07:32. > :07:36.Les Gray of the Police Federation has said that he supports the
:07:36. > :07:42.legislation, but that it will not work without resources, and that
:07:42. > :07:46.the financial memorandum attached to the Bill is not enough. We all
:07:46. > :07:51.must prove that we are serious about legislating properly, and
:07:51. > :07:54.also about making sure the legislation works, so will he
:07:54. > :08:00.provide any commitment to the additional resources which will be
:08:00. > :08:04.required in order to implement this legislation and make it work?
:08:04. > :08:07.resources will be in place to make sure the legislation can be
:08:07. > :08:13.implemented effectively. I know that he would be the first to
:08:13. > :08:19.acknowledge that the evidence from the responsible police officers on
:08:19. > :08:22.the front line, in their strong welcome for the legislation and
:08:22. > :08:26.their confidence in their ability to implement it, is one of the
:08:26. > :08:34.factors that I am sure carries weight with people across this
:08:34. > :08:40.chamber in wishing to support it. One of the statements made by the
:08:40. > :08:46.Minister, which I welcomed, in talking about this, was that this
:08:46. > :08:51.was not the beginning and end of legislation or other action in
:08:51. > :08:58.order to address the issue of sectarianism and bigotry. The First
:08:59. > :09:03.Minister knows that, for some years, we have argued that at a community
:09:03. > :09:09.level, through measures such as education, this is an aspect of our
:09:09. > :09:13.society which we must work to root out. Can I ask the First Minister
:09:14. > :09:18.what other measures he envisages, following on from the consideration
:09:18. > :09:25.of this legislation, beyond football, into wider society, and
:09:25. > :09:29.beyond legislation? I am glad he gives me the opportunity to state
:09:29. > :09:33.that the legislative arm of the actions of the group was only one
:09:33. > :09:41.of six were extremes. The others will be reporting to the government
:09:41. > :09:47.within the next few weeks. One useful aspect of that timetable
:09:47. > :09:52.will enable people to see that this is only one part of the initiatives
:09:52. > :09:56.being taken in the game of football. Football is only one part of the
:09:56. > :10:03.initiatives to be taken across society. I listened to debate this
:10:03. > :10:08.morning. -- I listened to the debate. This has been greater in
:10:08. > :10:14.the last few years than ever before. In financial terms, up over the
:10:14. > :10:24.last four years, it budget of �224,000 has become a budget of
:10:24. > :10:26.
:10:26. > :10:36.�525,000. One person came across a group that wished to show bigotry
:10:36. > :10:38.
:10:38. > :10:42.the red card. The funding stream for that work is �120,000. With
:10:42. > :10:46.that organisation is coming to attention, it is because it is one
:10:46. > :10:51.of the many groups being funded by the Government at the present
:10:51. > :10:54.moment. The community initiatives and the educational initiatives and
:10:54. > :10:58.the organisational initiatives will be supported in a co-ordinated
:10:58. > :11:02.fashion, but I am grateful to Iain Gray for giving me the opportunity
:11:02. > :11:05.to point out that the legislative arm is only one part of the
:11:05. > :11:13.Football initiatives and how we drive this evil out of the game of
:11:13. > :11:18.football. I listen to every aspect of the debate. I spoke to many of
:11:18. > :11:23.the stakeholders, whose agency in this matter is absolute in terms of
:11:23. > :11:27.their determination, and I hope and believe and I take people at their
:11:27. > :11:33.word that, by making this timetable available for fuller consideration,
:11:33. > :11:35.we will be able to counter this parliament unanimously and together
:11:35. > :11:44.exercise and drive this blight on the game of football and from our
:11:44. > :11:48.country. The First Minister has offered to extend the timetable for
:11:48. > :11:58.passing of this Bill to the end of this year, amid the concerns that
:11:58. > :12:05.
:12:06. > :12:10.the legislation was being too We all agree that we must deal with
:12:10. > :12:15.sectarianism, it is vile, odious and unacceptable, and the
:12:15. > :12:18.imperative of this Government is to get the Bill Wright, so I welcome
:12:18. > :12:23.the commonsense which has broken out, and the recognition to the
:12:23. > :12:27.Scottish government for a longer timetable. I am not often given to
:12:27. > :12:34.praising the First Minister, but he has shown majority in accepting his
:12:34. > :12:37.government have not got this right, and I say, well done for accepting
:12:37. > :12:42.that and putting this on to a more realistic footing. It does seem
:12:42. > :12:45.that come up under the Bill as currently drafted, there are
:12:45. > :12:50.circumstances when making the sign of the cross or singing the
:12:50. > :12:53.national anthem could constitute a crime. Within the Bill, criteria
:12:54. > :12:58.range widely from behaviour that was threatening or offensive to
:12:58. > :13:02.behaviour that was likely to incite public disorder. Can the First
:13:02. > :13:05.Minister confirm, with the new timetable, the Scottish government
:13:05. > :13:11.will look at whether the criteria in this Bill is consistent with
:13:11. > :13:15.previous legislation? Now we have a more extensive consultation process
:13:15. > :13:25.possible, will the Scottish government consider if the criteria
:13:25. > :13:26.
:13:26. > :13:29.are adequate? I believe the criteria are adequate. The Lord
:13:29. > :13:33.Advocate explained these points before the committee yesterday. If
:13:33. > :13:37.you saw that, if you would be satisfied that the nature of the
:13:37. > :13:41.Bill is well within the tradition of Scottish law. It depends on
:13:41. > :13:49.facts, circumstances and context. Some of the stories that have been
:13:49. > :13:52.running have no basis in reality in that sense. The Lord Advocate gave
:13:52. > :14:00.excellent examples to explain that. Even non-lawyers like myself would
:14:00. > :14:07.manage to do that. I thought that evidence put that to rest. Bearing
:14:07. > :14:12.that in mind, denature of this legislation, which has two parts,
:14:12. > :14:16.offensive behaviour causing public disorder at or around football
:14:16. > :14:21.matches, and threats inciting of religious harm or hatred, it is the
:14:21. > :14:27.type of legislation required. With the extra time and availability of
:14:27. > :14:32.discussion and debate, that I welcome the indication that the
:14:32. > :14:39.Conservative Party will be supporting the legislation. Port
:14:39. > :14:43.and in this out, even if, over the longer timetable, we address some
:14:43. > :14:47.of the ambiguities and uncertainties and even the
:14:47. > :14:53.limitations of the bill, even if we do that, in certain parts of the
:14:53. > :14:58.West of Scotland, we have entrenched sectarian attitudes. The
:14:58. > :15:03.Bill is only part of resolving the problem. What is the strategy to
:15:03. > :15:13.deal with this repugnant culture, which sadly runs more broadly than
:15:13. > :15:16.
:15:16. > :15:22.Do not underrate the importance of not tolerating sectarian displays
:15:22. > :15:26.in the national game. There is a consequence that has happened for
:15:26. > :15:31.generations in Scottish society. Sometimes societies come to the
:15:31. > :15:35.point where there is a balance of opinion and it is decided that
:15:35. > :15:41.enough is enough and something has to be done, something acceptable or
:15:41. > :15:45.seen to be tolerated a generation ago is no longer welcome in a
:15:45. > :15:53.civilised society. The two are linked because of the potency of
:15:53. > :15:59.what football is to pull a ball -- people and the power of good. This
:15:59. > :16:04.point has to be made by Church leaders. The work in driving
:16:04. > :16:10.sectarianism out of football is one part of a wider approach within
:16:10. > :16:14.community and educational initiatives. I am glad to see it
:16:14. > :16:20.supported. Do not underrate the extent of which the two are
:16:20. > :16:28.connected. Just an observation, I have followed closely and was
:16:28. > :16:35.rather unfortunate last week to have seen his sacking of Paul
:16:35. > :16:40.McBride QC. I have been following what he has had to say about this
:16:40. > :16:44.legislation. He is an advocate with huge experience in Scots law. His
:16:44. > :16:48.support for the legislation has been in the traditions of Scots law
:16:48. > :16:57.and has been a powerful voice arguing for action as quickly as
:16:57. > :17:00.possible. To ask the First Minister, in light
:17:00. > :17:07.of new information regarding the cost of the Edinburgh tramped
:17:07. > :17:13.project, but the time has come to institute a full public inquiry. --
:17:13. > :17:18.Edinburgh tram project. I am a supporter of a public
:17:18. > :17:22.inquiry into the trams project. Betting we should let a number
:17:22. > :17:28.Council continue its deliberations. -- I think we should let Edinburgh
:17:28. > :17:32.council. I want to say as gently as possible to remember, if it comes
:17:32. > :17:41.to a public inquiry, some people in political parties will have more to
:17:41. > :17:46.worry about than others. To ask the First Minister what
:17:46. > :17:51.issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. Issues
:17:51. > :17:56.of importance to the people of Scotland. When politicians change
:17:56. > :18:00.their mind, we must welcome that reflection and consideration rather
:18:00. > :18:08.than complain and criticise. Can I offer my fax to the First Minister
:18:08. > :18:11.for listening in the sectarian built. -- offer my thanks.
:18:11. > :18:17.welcome that indication from the Liberal Democrats and it gives me
:18:17. > :18:24.great hope that as we go through this process as a Parliament, we
:18:24. > :18:27.can set an example to a wider society as Scotland would expect.
:18:27. > :18:36.One of the issues with the Alcohol Etc (Scotland) Act 2010 was we
:18:36. > :18:46.believe that power was already existed in the main. -- bill. We
:18:46. > :18:51.believe using existing laws first and Community measures is better.
:18:51. > :18:55.Can I ask for the publication of an assessment of the use of existing
:18:55. > :19:03.laws and to prepare and agree a renewed, comprehensive anti
:19:03. > :19:07.sectarian strategy to read this out from Scottish society. I do not
:19:07. > :19:13.wish to break the consensus that I am trying to establish. I am sure
:19:13. > :19:16.Willie Rennie did not try to do that. He should look at the Lord
:19:16. > :19:20.Advocate's evidence to the justice committee yesterday were in precise
:19:20. > :19:24.terms, he led out the difficulties that breach of the piece as a
:19:24. > :19:30.general offence has been running into. One of the examples he gave
:19:30. > :19:35.was what would seem to most people be a clear racial masher was ruled
:19:35. > :19:41.not to be a breach of the piece because of the interpretation of
:19:41. > :19:50.that general offence in the court. To argue that the existing frame of
:19:50. > :19:59.the lot is not borne out. -- frame of the law. These are indictable
:19:59. > :20:03.offences that carry a maximum penalty of five years would
:20:03. > :20:08.indicate how it seriously we consider sectarianism. If something
:20:08. > :20:12.becomes an indictable offence it is because this Parliament and society
:20:12. > :20:15.decides no more or is this going to be tolerated in our country. In
:20:15. > :20:21.terms of the general point about the strategy across society, I
:20:21. > :20:26.agree about that. That is part and parcel of the approach that has to
:20:26. > :20:29.be made. Do not underrate the importance of legislation, as
:20:29. > :20:37.indicated from this Parliament, that some things will no longer be
:20:37. > :20:40.tolerated in Scotland. I won't ask the First Minister what
:20:40. > :20:45.the Scottish Government's response is to the concerns of the Scottish
:20:45. > :20:48.Chamber of Commerce that benefit to Scotland from the Olympic Games
:20:49. > :20:54.will be minimal. We share some of these concerns and continue to work
:20:54. > :21:04.with partners to attempt, -- to see that Scotland get as much benefit
:21:04. > :21:04.
:21:05. > :21:09.as possible from London 2012. The entire UK should benefit. I found a
:21:09. > :21:12.First Minister for the answer. Is it not the case that with a number
:21:12. > :21:18.of tickets were Scottish duo children, the number of tourists
:21:18. > :21:23.coming to Scotland, support for a skirt -- sport, there is no
:21:23. > :21:29.discernible benefit to and that we are also seen the Olympic
:21:29. > :21:34.continuing to attack the integrity of the Scottish football team. With
:21:34. > :21:40.�1.7 billion being spent to regenerate east London, Scotland
:21:40. > :21:47.should receive Barnack consequences of this figure to make a legacy for
:21:47. > :21:52.the 2015 Commonwealth Games. -- Ornette consequences. -- Barnet.
:21:52. > :21:58.This is something which is shared absolutely by the administration of
:21:58. > :22:05.Wales and Northern Ireland. We have put in a joint submission arguing
:22:05. > :22:08.exactly this point. It is this, there has been a six financial --
:22:08. > :22:13.substantial expenditure in London, which is acceptable. That is what
:22:13. > :22:16.is happening when a major international games comes. A great
:22:16. > :22:20.deal of the expenditure has been on transport and regeneration in
:22:21. > :22:27.London, specifically on these matters and not on the games
:22:27. > :22:32.themselves. If that argument is accepted that expenditure should
:22:32. > :22:36.have been within Barnet, according to the try injury -- Treasury
:22:36. > :22:41.funding formula. There was a question over whether that was
:22:41. > :22:45.necessary for the Games. Sebastian Coe, the chief executive of the
:22:45. > :22:51.organising committee, has said recently that this, the Olympics,
:22:51. > :22:56.is not it �9.3 billion sporting project. 75p in the pound will be
:22:56. > :22:59.spent in to going into the generation of London. Wales,
:22:59. > :23:04.Northern Ireland and Scotland believe that regeneration spending
:23:04. > :23:07.in London is a good thing but it is also right and proper about
:23:07. > :23:13.expenditure, under the current funding rules, should be in Barnet
:23:13. > :23:23.and an appropriate share given to the three other nations given to
:23:23. > :23:26.
:23:26. > :23:30.this -- on this island. There was a warning about the loss
:23:30. > :23:34.to Scottish community sport that would occur because of the Olympic
:23:34. > :23:40.Games. I heartily backed his efforts to claw back some of the
:23:40. > :23:43.money. Can I also ask him to take account of the legacy there will be
:23:43. > :23:49.for Scottish sport if they have their way as regards the football
:23:49. > :23:53.team. Can he had his support to the Scottish Football Association in
:23:53. > :23:58.advising young footballers that it would not be a clever move for them
:23:58. > :24:02.to play in a British team? I give my total support to the Scottish
:24:02. > :24:07.Football Association in this matter. The Scottish Football Association
:24:07. > :24:10.has to look at the interests in the game of football in Scotland and
:24:10. > :24:15.its presence in national and international arenas in the long
:24:15. > :24:18.term. I have to look beyond one particular tournament. I have to
:24:18. > :24:23.look at the best interests of the Scottish game. I believe they are
:24:23. > :24:26.doing that and not just this government but this Parliament
:24:26. > :24:33.should give the Scottish Football Association their total support in
:24:33. > :24:37.the views expressed by the Olympic Committee.
:24:37. > :24:41.To ask the First Minister what steps the Scottish Government will
:24:41. > :24:47.take to provide confidence to investors in light of the report by
:24:47. > :24:54.the Ernst and young Scottish wing that continuing constitutional
:24:54. > :25:01.change could put Scotland at economic his advantage. I know that
:25:01. > :25:08.Eliane Marie would recognise the report, which would identify
:25:08. > :25:15.Scotland as the prime location for direct inward investment. I am sure
:25:15. > :25:18.she would be the first to welcome the report and I hope that she
:25:18. > :25:24.acknowledges that the Government and its policies might have had
:25:24. > :25:30.part of that -- a part in that success.
:25:30. > :25:33.This report is extremely interesting. It points out that the
:25:33. > :25:38.public sector cuts jobs before constraints were interest --
:25:38. > :25:44.introduced. It is very interesting but if we can get back to meet
:25:44. > :25:54.economic... Please go for a question. This again defies
:25:54. > :25:56.
:25:56. > :26:06.business growth. When he act to reduce uncertainty. Ashwell he act.
:26:06. > :26:13.
:26:13. > :26:19.A promise delivered early is not a promise. I have got the exact quote
:26:19. > :26:24.from the report which I have read. It is not as she has been
:26:24. > :26:33.representing. What it says his supporters of the status quo will
:26:33. > :26:40.point to be damaged and uncertainty over mobile investment. Those in
:26:40. > :26:50.favour of change will offer better stewardship of Scottish affairs and
:26:50. > :26:50.
:26:50. > :26:54.act as a stimulus to confidence and growth. Elaine is a supporter of
:26:54. > :26:59.the status quo and she has that in common with English MPs. At
:26:59. > :27:03.Scottish MPs this same point was made. Many of us are in favour of
:27:03. > :27:12.the second argument, that it will act as a stimulus to confidence and
:27:12. > :27:16.growth. What is the Scottish Government's
:27:16. > :27:22.view on the report's outlook for employees in the manufacturing
:27:22. > :27:26.sector? There were key indications in the
:27:26. > :27:29.report. They projected what they regarded as a contraction of public
:27:29. > :27:35.sector employment. One of their things they pointed to was that
:27:35. > :27:40.private sector employment had outgrown the fall in public sector
:27:40. > :27:45.employment. There is no complacency on the part of this government,
:27:45. > :27:48.which has made its views clear as recently as last week, to the
:27:48. > :27:53.Treasury ministers, about the wisdom or otherwise of their
:27:53. > :27:57.policies. There is no question that the 40,000 additional jobs in the
:27:57. > :28:02.private sector in Scotland over the last year, the 10% rise in
:28:02. > :28:08.construction, the 6% rise in financial and business services is
:28:08. > :28:13.a substantial hope for the vibrancy of the Scottish economy, that it
:28:13. > :28:19.will be able to withstand, at least in part, a harsh budget cutbacks
:28:19. > :28:21.from Westminster. Some quite extraordinary news from
:28:21. > :28:28.First Ministers Questions today, that there is going to be a new
:28:28. > :28:32.time scale for the anti victory legislation. Mr Salmond said he had
:28:32. > :28:37.listened to concerned and there would be a new timetable and he
:28:37. > :28:42.would hopefully pass legislation by the end of the year. Extraordinary