:00:21. > :00:25.Said welcome to Politics Scotland. More pressure heaped on Alex
:00:25. > :00:30.Salmond. He said he had not lied in an interview about legal advice and
:00:30. > :00:35.whether or not it was given about Scottish EU membership. The Prime
:00:35. > :00:40.Minister has entered the row. turns out they did not have any
:00:40. > :00:46.legal advice and I think this shows that when we share the spotlight on
:00:46. > :00:55.the case for separation, it falls apart. For two MSPs press the
:00:55. > :00:58.nuclear button and quit. And the Jimmy Savile scandal widens. We
:00:58. > :01:04.have had an announcement that there will be a review of a decision not
:01:04. > :01:10.to prosecute him in connection with earlier sex abuse. It has been
:01:10. > :01:12.described as the worst day for the SNP since coming to power.
:01:12. > :01:18.Yesterday the First Minister made an emergency statement in which he
:01:18. > :01:24.denied lying about obtaining legal advice about membership of the EU.
:01:24. > :01:29.It came a couple of hours after MSPs resigned over the party's
:01:29. > :01:34.changed stance on NATO. We can take a look at how events unfolded
:01:34. > :01:39.yesterday about EU legal advice. the light of the Edinburgh
:01:39. > :01:42.agreement by which both governments have agreed the process to achieve
:01:42. > :01:48.independence, I can confirm the Government has commissioned a
:01:48. > :01:53.specific legal advice from officers on the position of Scotland in the
:01:53. > :01:56.European Union if independence is achieved. Apologies for
:01:56. > :02:02.interrupting this debate. We have got an important matter which I
:02:02. > :02:05.think needs to be addressed. Earlier, the Deputy First Minister
:02:05. > :02:10.said the Scottish government had not sought legal advice on an
:02:10. > :02:13.independent Scotland's membership of the European Union. But in an
:02:13. > :02:19.interview with Andrew Neil the First Minister in response to a
:02:19. > :02:25.question regarding whether he sought advice from his Scottish law
:02:25. > :02:30.officer, the First Minister said, "we have, yes, everything that we
:02:30. > :02:36.have said is consistent with the legal advice we have received."
:02:36. > :02:42.these two statements cannot be correct. I did he has misled the
:02:42. > :02:47.chamber or -- I bet he has misled the chamber or the deputy has
:02:47. > :02:51.misled the chamber. Can any opportunity be provided to allow
:02:51. > :03:01.the First Minister to clarify this serious matter? I would like to
:03:01. > :03:05.read too briefly the full transcript of the interview. I
:03:05. > :03:09.mentioned eminent authorities. I was told that we have established
:03:09. > :03:14.it is unprecedented, although you are trying to give guarantees, had
:03:14. > :03:18.he sought legal advice in this matter? I replied, we have, yes, in
:03:18. > :03:24.terms of the debate and obviously... Then he interrupted and asked what
:03:24. > :03:28.they said. I said you can read that in the documents but thought which
:03:28. > :03:33.argues the position we would be successful. But what do they say? I
:03:33. > :03:39.cannot give you the legal advice, all with the late. You know that,
:03:39. > :03:43.Andrew. If -- or reveal legal advice. He said, what you can say
:03:43. > :03:48.is that everything that has been published is consistent with the
:03:48. > :03:52.legal advice received. In the interview, as is clear from that
:03:52. > :03:59.transcript, I refused to depart from the Convention on specific
:03:59. > :04:04.legal advice, despite pressure from Andrew Neil. That position that
:04:04. > :04:08.myself and members have held to all points subsequent to earlier today,
:04:08. > :04:14.when the Deputy First Minister made her statement with the permission
:04:14. > :04:18.of the law officers. I am happy to place a full transcript of that
:04:18. > :04:23.interview at the earliest opportunity and shed light on
:04:23. > :04:29.partial accounts which have been mentioned elsewhere, which makes
:04:29. > :04:34.the content absolutely clear. Finally, in one of the partial
:04:34. > :04:40.transcripts, I have been described as a bare-faced liar. The quotation
:04:40. > :04:47.that has been used as justification says, me sane in response, we have,
:04:47. > :04:54.yes,... I cannot release the legal advice of law officers, Andrew.
:04:54. > :04:59.That has missed out 27 words across three separate answers. This can
:04:59. > :05:03.actually be seen in the full transcript. I would simply ask as a
:05:03. > :05:09.Member of this chamber that we reflect on the number of things we
:05:09. > :05:16.can put as adjectives in 27 words between these words. That is no way
:05:16. > :05:24.to conduct a debate. The full transcript will be available as a.
:05:24. > :05:29.They contend that has been talk about was government documents.
:05:29. > :05:34.can speak to Raymond Buchanan, at Holyrood. It is important to recap
:05:34. > :05:39.on yesterday's events. They are a bit complicated. But essentially
:05:39. > :05:45.the Scottish Cup and was walking into way firestorm. -- the Scottish
:05:45. > :05:49.government was walking into a firestorm. We have had this
:05:49. > :05:54.referendum question and one of the important questions will be it an
:05:54. > :05:58.independent Scotland would retain the EU membership. Ever since 2007
:05:58. > :06:02.we have had a series of official government documents which have
:06:02. > :06:09.plainly stated that an independent Scotland would continue membership
:06:09. > :06:14.of the EU. And yesterday during her statement, Nicola Sturgeon revealed
:06:14. > :06:18.that she had not yet, her government had not asked law
:06:18. > :06:23.officers in Scotland for specific legal advice on whether an
:06:23. > :06:28.independent Scotland would indeed continued membership. That has led
:06:28. > :06:31.to a not a criticism and cheering in the chamber. A press release
:06:31. > :06:38.from the Labour Party accused the First Minister of being a bare-
:06:38. > :06:41.faced liar. That was not repeated but his colleague again on the
:06:41. > :06:46.radio described the First Minister as having misled the public. That
:06:46. > :06:51.has been strongly denied by the First Minister himself yesterday
:06:51. > :06:55.and by colleagues today. A what is the talk at Holyrood today of the
:06:55. > :06:59.strategy behind the Scottish government? Did Nicola Sturgeon
:06:59. > :07:06.realise what was going to happen when she walked into the chamber
:07:06. > :07:12.yesterday? They were talking about that legal advice. They must have
:07:12. > :07:16.realised it would be controversial. We understood that the Scottish Cup
:07:16. > :07:22.would were still fighting a legal case over -- the Scottish
:07:22. > :07:27.government were fighting legal advice. There was not any doubt
:07:28. > :07:32.that this would be controversial. Copies of the statement were given
:07:32. > :07:39.in advance of her standing up. They cannot be any doubt that this would
:07:39. > :07:43.have led to controversy. Two members have resigned. Others are
:07:43. > :07:47.considering their position. And we had another statement in which it
:07:47. > :07:52.was revealed that the Government had missed its first climate
:07:52. > :07:58.emissions target. Not a good day for Alex Salmond. Not at all. We
:07:58. > :08:04.had that headline about the legal advice and the opposition parties
:08:04. > :08:12.are keeping up the pressure today. What has happened? They kick it is
:08:12. > :08:16.a weakness. We have heard -- they think is a weakness. The Prime
:08:16. > :08:20.Minister intervened and has since spoken to Nicola Sturgeon and she
:08:20. > :08:26.said that she will not take lessons from David Cameron. She said that
:08:26. > :08:32.they are working hard for the 2014 referendum. As the Prime Minister
:08:32. > :08:39.was answering that question, aided my age group of MSPs were gathering
:08:39. > :08:42.for the normal -- a group of MSPs were gathering. Positive meetings
:08:42. > :08:51.have taken place but it has obviously been a troubled couple of
:08:51. > :08:56.days. They are dusting themselves down and getting on with things.
:08:56. > :09:00.committee of peers is taking evidence in Edinburgh on the
:09:00. > :09:04.economic implications of independence. The inquiry will take
:09:04. > :09:08.evidence from business, academics and politicians, including the
:09:08. > :09:14.leader of the Better Together campaign, Alastair Darling, who
:09:14. > :09:18.joins us in Edinburgh. Lord MacGregor, chairing the committee,
:09:18. > :09:23.said he is disappointed Alex Salmond is not giving evidence. I
:09:23. > :09:29.am sure you will be pleased to give evidence but it is just a pro union
:09:29. > :09:35.investigation. It would have been helpful if Alex Salmond explained
:09:35. > :09:39.unanswered questions about this debate. We had that mess yesterday
:09:39. > :09:43.about the question of membership of the European Union which is
:09:43. > :09:48.critical to economic prospects. We have got the question of currency
:09:48. > :09:54.and what the arrangements would be and supervising banks. What is
:09:54. > :09:59.becoming obvious is that despite all the preparation, they are
:09:59. > :10:01.caught completely by surprise by this referendum. They have not done
:10:01. > :10:06.the work that he would have expected and cannot answer basic
:10:06. > :10:12.questions. No wonder they have run into difficulty trying to hide the
:10:12. > :10:18.fact they did not have legal advice. But are you the best person to give
:10:18. > :10:22.evidence? Look at the past Labour government's record. Since becoming
:10:22. > :10:28.Chancellor, Tony Blair said in his memoirs that he wished he started
:10:28. > :10:35.paying off the deficit area and it ballooned under your watch. But the
:10:35. > :10:40.financial system collapsed in this country and every country. But our
:10:40. > :10:44.country was affected and the Americans, European countries and
:10:44. > :10:48.Japan, the entire world. Coming back to this issue, what we must
:10:49. > :10:54.decide in relation to the referendum, is what is best for
:10:54. > :10:57.Scotland. That is why this miserable business yesterday
:10:57. > :11:01.completely undermines the credibility of Alex Salmond and his
:11:01. > :11:05.case when we were led to believe that there was legal opinion. He
:11:05. > :11:09.did not correct us about that and he has been fighting an expensive
:11:09. > :11:15.legal case to hide what has happened. But we have not had legal
:11:15. > :11:20.advice. We have got big issues on currency. These are issues that
:11:20. > :11:26.people in Scotland are entitled to be told about. It is obvious that
:11:26. > :11:30.we cannot trust what he is saying. You said it strikes at the heart of
:11:30. > :11:36.Alex Salmond's credibility. But in that interview with Andrew Neil was
:11:36. > :11:40.he not talking about that debate? do not think anybody outside the
:11:40. > :11:46.SNP could possibly have believed that he was saying anything about
:11:46. > :11:49.legal advice. He had ample opportunity in that interview to
:11:49. > :11:54.say that he had not asked anybody about this and that it was his
:11:54. > :11:58.opinion but he did not. For months, he has allowed people to think that
:11:58. > :12:03.he had a legal opinion to back up his point of view. I thought that
:12:03. > :12:09.is why he did not want to release it in case anybody look at it. But
:12:09. > :12:12.he never got that advice in the first place. In a few months they
:12:12. > :12:17.want to use the Government to produce a white paper to set out
:12:17. > :12:22.there case. What credibility has this got? How can we believe this
:12:22. > :12:28.after yesterday? It strikes at the heart of credibility and this whole
:12:28. > :12:32.debate at the referendum and it does not do that any good. At the
:12:32. > :12:36.committee we have heard that it was said that Scotland should prepare
:12:36. > :12:40.to join the European currency if they got independence. But
:12:40. > :12:48.considering the absence of legal advice he caught... What is your
:12:48. > :12:52.opinion? Would they have to join the currency? If you look at all
:12:52. > :12:56.the people that have joined the European currency, it has been a
:12:56. > :13:02.condition that they have signed up and that they have signed up to
:13:02. > :13:06.passport control. But the point is that we are not sure firstly
:13:06. > :13:10.whether or not Scotland would be treated as being a member or if it
:13:10. > :13:15.would have to apply. Some people have said that we would need to
:13:15. > :13:20.apply again and Alex Salmond with his typical bombast said that was
:13:20. > :13:26.rubbish and that he did not know what he was talking about. These
:13:26. > :13:29.are uncertainties. That is what we must know about before 2014.
:13:30. > :13:35.nationalists have picked up on that point of uncertainty and have said
:13:35. > :13:39.that your campaign is uncertain. Nobody knows what the Labour Party
:13:39. > :13:44.wants if we have further devolution in the referendum. Nobody knows
:13:44. > :13:50.what the Conservatives want. What is the future for Scotland for the
:13:50. > :13:54.Labour Party? First, we will remain part of the United Kingdom with the
:13:54. > :13:57.strengths and the fact that we have got the oldest single market. We
:13:57. > :14:02.have got cultural and emotional ties and influence in Europe that
:14:02. > :14:06.you cannot have as a small country. These are positive arguments and
:14:06. > :14:11.you are asking about additional powers. As you know, additional
:14:11. > :14:16.hours are coming in 2016, started by our government and implemented
:14:16. > :14:21.by the current government. As time continues, I am sure they will be
:14:21. > :14:24.more devolution. But the issues that the nationalists have right be
:14:25. > :14:28.raised because they have got the mandate it is Scotland going to
:14:28. > :14:32.remain part of the United Kingdom? At all be put in front of the
:14:32. > :14:35.people in two years. I know what they are trying to avoid answering
:14:35. > :14:40.that question because they are unprepared to answer these
:14:40. > :14:44.questions. That is why we are entitled, when it is clear what
:14:44. > :14:54.they are doing, why they have quite deliberately deceived people, we
:14:54. > :15:02.
:15:02. > :15:05.are entitled to press them about John Finney and Jean Urquhart made
:15:05. > :15:12.pleas not the change policy. Yesterday, they explained why they
:15:12. > :15:19.were quitting. I have wrestled on how remaining in the party I can
:15:19. > :15:23.square the matter. I can't. I cannot advocate joining a nuclear
:15:23. > :15:28.alliance like NATO is. This is the only reason I am taking this
:15:28. > :15:32.horrendous decision, I have to say. I am not, I am not proud of it, but
:15:32. > :15:37.I feel for my own integrity it's the only thing I can do. Let us
:15:37. > :15:40.speak to our commentator for the afternoon, who is the editor of the
:15:40. > :15:45.Times in Scotland. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining me.
:15:45. > :15:50.Fascinating couple of days in politics, just now. We are playing
:15:50. > :15:55.those clips from the two MSPs who have left yesterday. When they
:15:55. > :15:59.story broke, that was something in the morning, wasn't it? For years,
:15:59. > :16:05.the SNP have been a united force, and in Government, one would have
:16:05. > :16:08.to say that since 2000 67, they have presented this -- 2007,
:16:08. > :16:14.presented a competent front, both administratively and politically,
:16:14. > :16:18.so you know, for two backbenchers to suddenly walk out of the party
:16:18. > :16:21.as went against everything we knew of the present day and modern day
:16:21. > :16:26.SNP. But I mean, having walked out, one would have to conclude they
:16:27. > :16:31.have, you know, put principle before pragmatism, and that was, if
:16:31. > :16:36.you like, a reversal of what happened last Friday, where, at the
:16:36. > :16:41.debate at the Conference, the SNP decided to put pragmatism before
:16:41. > :16:45.the principle they held for years. So I think that actually, Jean
:16:45. > :16:50.Urquhart and John Finney behaved honourably. It raises the question
:16:50. > :16:55.of how many more? We don't know that. There are rumours of at least
:16:55. > :17:00.one more. It raises the question on how this impact tons majority. Both
:17:00. > :17:04.made very clear yesterday, the numbers might be down, but they
:17:04. > :17:07.will be they will be answerable to vote with the SNP on all
:17:07. > :17:10.conceiveable issues. Defence is not going to come up. NATO is not going
:17:10. > :17:15.to come up, that is reserved to Westminster. A couple of hours
:17:15. > :17:18.later, the the story about the legal advice brother, which we have
:17:18. > :17:22.been discussing. Alistair Darling was picking up on that too. Do you
:17:22. > :17:27.think, as I mentioned, do you think Nicola Sturgeon knew what was going
:17:27. > :17:32.to happen when she walked into the chamber yesterday and started
:17:32. > :17:37.speaking about it? It is baffling. Some people suggested, when the
:17:37. > :17:41.story broke yesterday afternoon, maybe it was some kind of
:17:41. > :17:45.diversionary tactic from the two to, get our attention grey the two MSPs
:17:46. > :17:50.who walked out. That doesn't make sense. Why would you divert
:17:50. > :17:56.people's aten swhun a worse story? This was a worse story. The other
:17:56. > :17:59.explanation, it is that they thought by because the MSPs
:17:59. > :18:06.quitting that story a couple of hours earlier, they were trying to
:18:06. > :18:09.get this out, and that maybe it would be lost in the hoo-ha about
:18:10. > :18:14.the MSPs, but it was simply not thought through, as far as I can
:18:14. > :18:18.see. When you think about it, all, and I really have to say, Andrew,
:18:18. > :18:22.that I think the language, some of the language round this issue,
:18:22. > :18:27.people have been called liars. I don't think it does anyone any good.
:18:28. > :18:32.You would have to say, on this issue, of the legal advice on the
:18:32. > :18:35.EU, as on the issue of the second question in the referendum, Mr
:18:35. > :18:40.Salmond has at the very least been bluffing frankly, and all that, all
:18:40. > :18:43.that seems to have happened is that he doesn't realise that either
:18:43. > :18:47.someone was going to have to call his bluff, or he was going to have
:18:47. > :18:51.to call his own bluff. As it happened he called his own bluff
:18:51. > :18:56.yesterday. Has been a terrible week for Mr Salmond, if someone else
:18:56. > :19:01.goes tomorrow, for example, over NATO, I mean, it round it all,
:19:01. > :19:04.doesn't it. It does. Yes, it has been a traumatic period, and he
:19:04. > :19:08.looked yesterday, I mean one of the things I expected when he came back
:19:08. > :19:12.to the chamber yesterday, to make his emergency statement, given, you
:19:13. > :19:17.know, Alex Salmond's the ability he has as a politics. I thought he
:19:17. > :19:24.wouldn't be coming back if he didn't have something riveting to
:19:25. > :19:28.say. He didn't, he made an unclear statement, as an excuse, really,
:19:28. > :19:33.and it didn't work at all. If it was meant to sort of say, for us
:19:33. > :19:39.all to say "Oh well, perhaps we were wrong in the first judgment
:19:40. > :19:44.here, it didn't work and we all went way saying that doesn't change
:19:44. > :19:50.anything. Back with you in a short while. So, plenty to discuss today.
:19:50. > :19:56.Let us hear what our MSPs have to swai. Will go back to Raymond at
:19:56. > :20:05.Holyrood. Thank you. Yes, I have a very eminent panel of four MSPs
:20:05. > :20:08.here, to discuss what has been a tumultuous couple of days. Angus
:20:08. > :20:15.just suggesting what we found out yesterday, Alex Salmond has been
:20:15. > :20:20.bluffing on the issue of legal advice, what do you say to that?.
:20:20. > :20:24.Far from it. The Ministerial Code is explicit, the ministers cannot
:20:24. > :20:28.comment on the existence of legal advice, far let alone what any
:20:28. > :20:31.legal advice, if it exist, might contain, and I find it interesting,
:20:31. > :20:36.because Alex Salmond has been referred untive der the terms of
:20:36. > :20:41.the code by our opponents five time, five occasion, the allegations have
:20:41. > :20:44.been found to have no substance whatsoever. Yet n this instance the
:20:44. > :20:48.other parties were active tively willing Alex Salmond to break the
:20:48. > :20:53.terms of the code. When you read official Government documents going
:20:53. > :20:56.back to 2007, up to the referendum consultation earlier on, and they
:20:56. > :21:00.say an independent Scotland will be a member of the European Union. Did
:21:00. > :21:05.you think, tell you what, they are guessing at that, or did you think
:21:05. > :21:08.they must have a legal opinion, otherwise they wouldn't put that in
:21:09. > :21:13.an official document? I am sure my colleagues will say in a moment
:21:13. > :21:18.Scotland won't be part of the European Union. Everyone accepts
:21:18. > :21:24.that Scotland will be part of the European Union. You are so certain,
:21:24. > :21:30.you said you know what, you have to confirm that. There is a body of
:21:30. > :21:34.opinion, expert opinion... All people who worked at the upper
:21:34. > :21:38.echelon of the European who have said that Scotland will inherit its
:21:38. > :21:41.membership of the European Union, and be in the same position as the
:21:41. > :21:45.remainder of the United Kingdom. You know what, they are reflecting
:21:45. > :21:50.the reality of the situation. It is commonsense to dictate that is the
:21:50. > :21:52.case. Labour made a mess of this yesterday, by the use of your
:21:53. > :21:56.language, calling the First Minister a liar. Is that
:21:56. > :22:01.appropriate for grown up politicians to be using that kind
:22:01. > :22:05.of language. I don't think we made a mess of it eau at all. Finally
:22:05. > :22:09.the Scottish people are getting the measure of the First Minister,
:22:09. > :22:13.something perhaps most of us in the Scottish Parliament are familiar
:22:13. > :22:18.with, he is a bluff and bluster politician, not only are they
:22:18. > :22:21.seeing his true side but Jamie is trying to make the assertion of
:22:21. > :22:25.course we will be members of the European Union. That is the trouble,
:22:25. > :22:29.we keep getting the politics of assertion. Do you think one of the
:22:29. > :22:34.largest oil producers on this continent will not be invited, at
:22:34. > :22:38.the very least if they need to get that, into the European? I was
:22:38. > :22:43.going to say Scotland would be a member of the European, but we need
:22:43. > :22:47.to know on what terms. So for example, will we will forced to use
:22:47. > :22:51.the euro? It is a important question. All new members have to
:22:51. > :22:54.become members of the eurozone, that is an important question.
:22:54. > :22:57.Important question, quick answer. Well, I go back to the point I have
:22:57. > :23:02.made already. Scotland will not be a new member of the European, and I
:23:02. > :23:07.think the point you have made is that the Labour Party should very
:23:07. > :23:11.much regret the type of terminology they used yesterday. Willie Rennie,
:23:11. > :23:15.the reason Alex Salmond has to go back into the chamber is because
:23:15. > :23:19.you accused him of potentially miss leading people with what he had
:23:19. > :23:22.said in that interview, compared to what was said in the chamber. Were
:23:22. > :23:27.you satisfied with his performance? I don't think it was, it was a
:23:27. > :23:32.mealy mouthed mud hell got involved in yesterday, we are not clearer as
:23:32. > :23:36.to whether he had advice or didn't. What aren't you clear about?
:23:36. > :23:39.said clearly we have, yes, in response to the question we have
:23:39. > :23:42.legal advice from our Scottish law officer, he said that in the
:23:42. > :23:46.interview, and then he is saying I didn't say that. I think the most
:23:46. > :23:51.important thing is we get down to the substance of what this really
:23:51. > :23:55.means. I think the Scottish Government have been pursuing the
:23:55. > :23:58.currency with the pound. They want to keep the pound. That is the
:23:58. > :24:02.assertion from the SNP that will be the logical extension from their
:24:02. > :24:05.position. I think now that the case the SNP have been making about
:24:05. > :24:09.continuing membership of the European Union has been undermined
:24:09. > :24:16.significantly from yesterday. They now need to look seriously at the
:24:16. > :24:19.euro. Just a moment. There may not be precedence which about which an
:24:19. > :24:24.independent Scotland becoming an automatic member of the EU, there
:24:24. > :24:28.is precedence to say a new member need not take up the euro any time
:24:28. > :24:33.soon. There is a possibility that Scotland, an independent Scotland
:24:33. > :24:35.would have to take up the euro. What is a possibility? Isn't that
:24:35. > :24:40.scaremongers. All they are looking at is the pound. We need to know
:24:40. > :24:45.the consequences of what the euro would mean for Scotland, and for
:24:45. > :24:49.instance if we had to get our deficit under control, that could
:24:49. > :24:53.mean a �5 billion cut in public spending. That is not scaring. All
:24:53. > :24:57.I am suggesting is they should get, they should do the research, the
:24:58. > :25:02.planning, the preparation, because if we don't, we will be walking in
:25:02. > :25:07.the dark in this referendum. What damage do you think this has done
:25:07. > :25:12.to Alex Salmond as a First Minister. You talk about a shambles yesterday.
:25:12. > :25:16.Angus said he was caught bluffing and Jamie is trying to continue the
:25:16. > :25:18.bluff today. The fact sb for the last year, every time we have asked
:25:19. > :25:22.this question, the Government's response has been yes, we can't
:25:22. > :25:26.share the legal advice, but everything in the documents is
:25:26. > :25:29.consistent with the legal advice we have received. Yesterday we were
:25:29. > :25:33.told there is no legal advice, they haven't sought it. I don't know
:25:33. > :25:36.what is worse, that they have been trying to pull the wool over
:25:36. > :25:40.people's eyes for the last year, that they had legal advice and were
:25:40. > :25:44.giving the impression it meant we could be part of the European Union
:25:44. > :25:48.in current term, or what is worse they haven't sought the add sthrie,
:25:48. > :25:51.is a man who is asking the people of Scotland to trust him with
:25:52. > :25:57.creating a new nation state. The people of Scotland can see he can't
:25:57. > :26:01.be straight with them on the facts. You are coming in from criticism
:26:01. > :26:05.Jamie. No surprise they believe in the union. This is somewhat par for
:26:05. > :26:08.the course. Why did we find out yesterday you hadn't asked for
:26:08. > :26:15.legal advice? I go back to the point I made earlier, under the
:26:15. > :26:19.terms of the code ministers cannot comment on the compis tans...
:26:19. > :26:23.can ask for permission. There is a way it could happen. This comes out
:26:23. > :26:28.of the context of a specific interview, again, we are getting
:26:28. > :26:31.the selective quotation from the interview, which is what happened
:26:31. > :26:36.in that disgraceful press release we saw yesterday, from Labour. It
:26:36. > :26:40.is clear from the terms of that interview, yes, Alex Salmond did
:26:40. > :26:48.confirm that legal advice has been sought, in terms of the documents
:26:48. > :26:55.that have been published at the time, such at Your Scotland, Your
:26:55. > :26:59.Voice. It's the case that every single document publishs by the
:26:59. > :27:07.Scottish Government was under pinned by legal advice. Why didn't
:27:07. > :27:10.you say, look, we aregateering this informs Lord advocate check that to
:27:10. > :27:16.make sure independent Scotland, would be because we would like to
:27:16. > :27:20.put that snens the document? What did we see in the last week? We saw
:27:20. > :27:23.the culmination of two Governments culminating in the agreement. I
:27:23. > :27:26.think that is the appropriate Jung churn because we know what the
:27:26. > :27:32.terms of that referendum are ra going to be. That is the time to
:27:32. > :27:38.seek that advice. Briefly, do you think this is over in terms of the
:27:38. > :27:42.Parliament? I think that, I hope there is a lesson to be learned.
:27:42. > :27:47.One for the First Minister to be straight us with, secondly, to have
:27:47. > :27:50.an honest debate about the terms of separation. We need to know... It
:27:50. > :27:56.is accept race we are going to leave the UK and we need to know
:27:56. > :28:00.the ground on which we are going to join the EU.. Do you think it is
:28:00. > :28:04.over in Parliamentary terms? He explained himself yesterday, not
:28:04. > :28:09.very well was he has and what has become clear is that the public now
:28:09. > :28:12.see, he said one thing then, saying another thing. Nicola Sturgeon said
:28:12. > :28:16.fair minded people will come to their own view. I think fair minded
:28:16. > :28:21.people will, and I think they will feel they have been duped. Is this,
:28:21. > :28:26.do you think a weak point in the "yes" campaign, when it comes to
:28:26. > :28:29.the independence referendum in 2014, the whole European question?
:28:29. > :28:32.disagree. If you look tt latest opinion poll, support for
:28:32. > :28:36.independence is growing, particularly if when the question
:28:36. > :28:42.is posed in terms of either the Tories or the Labour Party form the
:28:42. > :28:45.next UK Government. Positive argument that gvings. Thank you for
:28:45. > :28:49.joining us. First Minister's questions tomorrow. Never quite
:28:49. > :28:54.sure what is going to come up there, but the issue of Europe won't be
:28:54. > :28:57.going away any time soon. A fair bet. Thank you for that just now.
:28:57. > :29:03.Now, it is reasonably mild today but forecasters say the cold
:29:03. > :29:07.weather is on its way this weekend. As you look out your scarves and
:29:07. > :29:11.gloves the Scottish Government is preparing for cold setting out
:29:11. > :29:21.their winter resilience plans. Labour claimed local councils are
:29:21. > :29:28.
:29:28. > :29:33.being forced to cut back on money I have got partial experience
:29:33. > :29:38.because my daughter was stuck again snow and I had difficulty finding
:29:38. > :29:44.out what was happening and getting information to her. Since then,
:29:44. > :29:48.improvements have been made. And as the minister said, we have got more
:29:48. > :29:53.information for mobile devices. Resilience involves keeping public
:29:53. > :29:57.services functioning and keeping the public informed. Schools might
:29:57. > :30:03.be closed at short notice because it is not safe for people to travel
:30:03. > :30:06.to school or because heating systems are failing. But closures
:30:06. > :30:12.to create difficulties for working parents and people for whom they
:30:12. > :30:18.work. Especially people in occupations which come under
:30:18. > :30:22.pressure in these matters such as the NHS. So to insure people get
:30:22. > :30:25.information quickly, parents should be encouraged to make plans with
:30:25. > :30:30.relatives and friends and other parents about how they would put up
:30:30. > :30:34.with closures. And who might be able to take time off work to look
:30:35. > :30:40.after children perhaps on a rotation basis. We are encouraging
:30:40. > :30:44.work places to allow home working where possible. We are looking at
:30:44. > :30:48.transport issues and child care problems as well. Periods of
:30:48. > :30:53.prolonged low temperatures present problems for other services. I can
:30:53. > :31:00.think of Christmas and the new year last year when in my constituency
:31:00. > :31:06.we got less snowfall but because the crowd was not insulated by snow,
:31:06. > :31:10.we had a lot of problems with frozen pipes and they had not been
:31:10. > :31:16.put deep enough under the road. A lot of people ended up without
:31:16. > :31:20.water for several days. I had a situation with an elderly gentleman
:31:20. > :31:25.taking snow out of the garden and putting it in his cattle for
:31:25. > :31:30.something to drink. One of the problems was the call centre could
:31:30. > :31:34.not cope with the volume of calls. Some of these things need to be
:31:34. > :31:40.looked at. In terms of Scottish Water, senior management did a
:31:40. > :31:44.Stirling job. They received telephone calls right into the
:31:44. > :31:50.night and it was an excellent service and I have not criticised
:31:50. > :31:55.them at that time. But people that are able to contribute to community
:31:55. > :32:02.resilience should be encouraged to do that. During the last severe
:32:02. > :32:06.winter, we had a lot of disinformation, such as if somebody
:32:06. > :32:11.cleared a footpath outside their home and somebody said, at person
:32:11. > :32:15.might be held responsible. That was a load of nonsense but people must
:32:15. > :32:23.be confident that if they make efforts to help themselves and
:32:23. > :32:27.their community, that will not lead to prosecution. More salting and
:32:27. > :32:33.gritting can increase resilience as long as the content is stored in a
:32:33. > :32:38.way that it does not solidified. Sometimes that can be difficult. It
:32:38. > :32:44.does appear lessons have been learnt from recent harsh winters
:32:44. > :32:49.and equipment has been purchased. I saw a nice picture in the Daily
:32:49. > :32:54.Mail, showing at the minister with a good set of gloves and scarves
:32:54. > :33:00.and an umbrella. But the concerns are not about the sartorial
:33:00. > :33:04.elegance of the minister but the article next door. That indicates
:33:04. > :33:10.that a number of local authorities because of financial pressure are
:33:10. > :33:16.looking at cutting back on winter resilience. Scottish Borders are
:33:16. > :33:22.hoping to save �170,000 by reducing gritting parities for hundreds of
:33:22. > :33:26.miles of road. Time intervals have been reduced during which gritting
:33:26. > :33:32.can take place by four hours per day had councils have been cutting
:33:32. > :33:36.back on programmes and three have reduced salt reserves. That has
:33:36. > :33:42.been done because councils think that they can access more material
:33:42. > :33:47.more quickly if required. It is worth looking behind some of these
:33:47. > :33:51.figures which have been quoted. Many authorities would have had
:33:51. > :33:56.high levels of salt not used because of how the winter turned
:33:56. > :34:05.out. It is in their interests to be conscious that they have got more
:34:06. > :34:09.than enough in place. We had that very bad winter two years ago.
:34:09. > :34:13.thank the Minister for that clarification of these issues. One
:34:13. > :34:19.of the things that is worrying is that I do not think councils are
:34:19. > :34:22.implementing these cuts because they did not take it seriously. I
:34:22. > :34:29.realise that actually they do but councils are under extreme
:34:29. > :34:33.financial pressure. Alex Thomson will mention issues about potholes.
:34:33. > :34:42.We have still got miles of them in Galloway which have not been
:34:42. > :34:47.Speaking in the Parliament about winter resilience. The Scottish
:34:47. > :34:50.pledged to reduce carbon emissions was praised as world-leading but
:34:51. > :34:55.yesterday, they had to explain why the Scottish Government had failed
:34:55. > :35:02.to meet the first legally binding climate change target. Apparently
:35:02. > :35:05.it was because of that harsh winter back in 2010. This report identify
:35:05. > :35:11.his greenhouse gas emissions in 2010 and there are a number of
:35:11. > :35:15.things to consider. After a very cold weather at the start and end
:35:15. > :35:19.of 2010, that had an impact on the emissions. It is worth recalling
:35:19. > :35:27.that the average temperature between January and March and
:35:27. > :35:31.October and December was the coldest in almost 100 years. As a
:35:31. > :35:36.consequence, the consumption of heating increased. People heated
:35:36. > :35:41.their homes to keep warm and safe. The figures indicate that people in
:35:41. > :35:46.the residential sector increased usage by 15 %, 1.1 megatons of
:35:46. > :35:51.emissions. We support these targets and we recognise that they are
:35:51. > :35:55.world leading but it must be time to lead by example. The first
:35:55. > :36:00.annual target is a failure. And in this statement we have got every
:36:00. > :36:06.excuse being offered including the lack of sunshine. But we must
:36:06. > :36:11.accept responsibility -- responsibility for this failure.
:36:11. > :36:16.Commissions are actually higher in 2010 than they were in 1990. --
:36:16. > :36:20.greenhouse gas emissions. Chaos in response to budgets have indicated
:36:20. > :36:24.that today's budget makes it clear that the Government is not taking
:36:24. > :36:33.seriously the need for urgent action and meet legally binding
:36:33. > :36:40.Joining me from Edinburgh is the chair of Stop Climate Chaos, Tom
:36:40. > :36:45.Ballantine. Hearing the bad weather of 2010 was to blame for missing
:36:45. > :36:52.these targets, do you start to think what is the point of having
:36:52. > :36:56.these targets? Indeed. I think we must accept that we did not need to
:36:56. > :37:02.be defeated by the weather conditions. The Government could
:37:02. > :37:07.have taken more ambitious plans on transport and energy efficiency and
:37:07. > :37:13.we could have met targets. Many emissions come from homes and from
:37:13. > :37:20.transport and there was an obvious route to that to meeting targets.
:37:21. > :37:27.They blamed the use of heating in 2010 at the start and finish. Have
:37:27. > :37:34.we got funding issues here? It was pointed out in the chamber that
:37:34. > :37:37.some people were wondering if the budget was sufficient. I think it
:37:37. > :37:43.is not sufficient. People were talking about homes. It should be
:37:43. > :37:47.at least �100 billion for energy- efficiency measures. It is a no-
:37:47. > :37:53.brainer. Home energy efficiencies would create more jobs and deal
:37:53. > :37:57.with fuel poverty and provide health benefits. This is a range of
:37:57. > :38:03.reasons why it makes sense to put money into that. Will these figures
:38:03. > :38:09.have given the Government a fright? Mite more funding be put into
:38:09. > :38:13.climate change? I hope the Government will consider the fact
:38:13. > :38:18.that when legislation was passed it was passed unanimously at had
:38:18. > :38:22.support across the public. The Scottish First Minister has been
:38:22. > :38:28.talking about climate justice and the need for everybody to meet
:38:28. > :38:33.targets. I hope that he will make sure that the budget is more
:38:33. > :38:37.generous when it comes to things like home energy and transport,
:38:37. > :38:42.where again what we are looking for is more money going into active
:38:42. > :38:48.travel, to provide benefits for Health, cut pollution and have
:38:48. > :38:53.other benefits. More money on that and energy efficiency.
:38:53. > :38:58.mentioned these targets being world leading. The climate change summit
:38:58. > :39:04.is in December. Will the Minister think that future targets will be
:39:04. > :39:08.met? Is he being too confident or is it possible? It is certainly
:39:08. > :39:14.possible but it requires the Government to move a cross from
:39:14. > :39:18.world leading words and targets to world leading actions. That is what
:39:19. > :39:21.we are lobbying for. We will lobby the Scottish Parliament
:39:21. > :39:28.specifically to press for the Government to do the things that
:39:28. > :39:32.will make it possible to beat targets. Tom Ballantine from
:39:32. > :39:37.Edinburgh, thank you for joining us. We can speak to a Angus Macleod
:39:37. > :39:43.from the Times. It does seem strange that the Scottish weather
:39:43. > :39:48.conditions have defeated targets. A lot of use of heating at the end of
:39:48. > :39:53.2010. A surprise, surprise, a country in the North West of Europe
:39:53. > :39:58.getting cold. The minister might have cause to be grateful to his
:39:58. > :40:03.colleagues. Because after all the other stories emanating from the
:40:03. > :40:08.Scottish Government, the climate change story got lost in the detail.
:40:08. > :40:14.Perhaps insufficient attention has been paid. The Scottish Government
:40:14. > :40:22.has talked a lot about being a world leader. This plays into the
:40:22. > :40:26.failing a rusty Scottish Government of claiming being a world leader --
:40:26. > :40:31.falling into the Scottish Government about claiming about
:40:31. > :40:36.being a world leader and these are legally binding targets. When they
:40:36. > :40:43.are seen to fail, then they must ask why these targets were set in
:40:43. > :40:47.the first place. Down to Westminster and Prime Minister's
:40:47. > :40:52.Questions, where David Cameron was asked about events of the past week
:40:52. > :40:55.by Ed Miliband. He also responded to questions about the director
:40:55. > :41:01.general of the BBC's appearance before the Select Committee
:41:01. > :41:05.yesterday and the row about Scottish EU legal advice. He is
:41:05. > :41:10.living in a parallel universe. It has been another disastrous week
:41:10. > :41:15.for his government. Last week he defended the chief whip and now he
:41:15. > :41:19.has gone. The energy policy has gone as well. He has lost millions
:41:19. > :41:25.on the railways. There is nobody left to blame for the shambles of
:41:25. > :41:29.his government and it goes right to the top. It is only a bad week if
:41:29. > :41:35.you think it is bad that unemployment is coming down. It is
:41:35. > :41:38.a bad if you regret inflation is coming down. It is only bad if you
:41:38. > :41:44.do not think it is good that one million more people are working.
:41:44. > :41:51.That is what is happening. Every bit of good news is sending that
:41:51. > :41:54.team into a complete decline. But it will keep coming. After the
:41:54. > :42:00.appearance of the director general, I hope the House will agree that it
:42:00. > :42:06.is essential that these inquiries get to the truth. Details are still
:42:06. > :42:11.sketchy, despite letters asking for disclosure. Will the Prime Minister
:42:11. > :42:15.join me in calling for full details to be published so that both
:42:15. > :42:21.inquiries can have full confidence of the public and Jimmy Savile's
:42:21. > :42:26.victims can hear the true? commend my friend for the good and
:42:26. > :42:32.valuable work that he has done. He has tried to make sure that these
:42:32. > :42:37.institutions get to the truth. To be fair to the BBC, they inquiries
:42:37. > :42:41.at they have set up, I think qualify as independent. The inquiry
:42:41. > :42:46.into Newsnight is being carried out by the former head of Sky News,
:42:46. > :42:51.Nick Pollard. The second review into the culture and practices of
:42:51. > :42:55.the BBC going back many years is being led by a former Appeal Court
:42:55. > :42:59.judge, Dame Janet Smith. It is important to BBC makes clear that
:42:59. > :43:02.the inquiries can go where the evidence takes them and that they
:43:02. > :43:09.will have access to paperwork and the Independent and get to the
:43:09. > :43:14.truth. Will he promised that unlike leaders in other parliaments in the
:43:15. > :43:21.UK, that he will not spend �100,000 fighting the release of legal
:43:21. > :43:28.advice that he does not hold and did not ask for? He asks a baffling
:43:28. > :43:32.question about a baffling situation, which is that we were told, I think
:43:32. > :43:36.by the First Minister in Scotland that he had legal advice about
:43:36. > :43:42.Scotland's place in the EU. But it turns out they did not have legal
:43:42. > :43:52.advice. I think that this shows that when you shine the spotlight
:43:52. > :43:56.
:43:56. > :44:00.on the case for separation, it Good afternoon David. Thank you
:44:00. > :44:04.very much. As we saw there, a flavour of Prime Minister's
:44:04. > :44:14.Question Time. And pretty mixed bag of issues to discuss. I am pleased
:44:14. > :44:16.
:44:16. > :44:20.to say I have three Scottish MPs to Gentlemen, I will start with an
:44:20. > :44:25.issue which I think is probably going to be a large amount of
:44:25. > :44:31.agreement on, the whole Jimmy Savile scandal/saga. I think to
:44:31. > :44:37.people at home, they will be incredulous how this could have
:44:37. > :44:41.gone on for so long, and no-one seemed to realise or lead a
:44:41. > :44:48.prosecution. I think it is unbelievable that it did carry on
:44:48. > :44:51.for so long, that there wasn't any coming into the public domain, in
:44:51. > :44:54.the sense of the authorities being involved. What we have to do now is
:44:54. > :44:59.ensure that the police are properly resourceed in the inquiries they
:44:59. > :45:04.are carrying out. Obviously the BBC have two enquiries ongoing and
:45:04. > :45:09.there is a separate NHS inquiry. We have to get to the facts of what
:45:09. > :45:15.actually happened, and the fact of how it didn't emerge within the
:45:15. > :45:19.public demain in his lifetime. we need now a separate overarching
:45:19. > :45:22.inquiry, into the aspects of this man's life, and what he did?
:45:22. > :45:27.Certainly the Labour Party and Ed Miliband have been keen that such
:45:27. > :45:31.an inquiries, and it is pretty shocking, when you think of the
:45:31. > :45:36.people are coming forward, and explaining what happened, when they
:45:36. > :45:40.met Jimmy Savile. We have to get to the bottom of this. These inquiries,
:45:40. > :45:44.understandably, different institutions are having their own
:45:44. > :45:48.inquiries, I think the public will demand there is an answer at the
:45:48. > :45:52.bottom of this. There doesn't appear to be a Scottish dimension
:45:52. > :45:56.in that thankfully. There are profound questions which need to be
:45:56. > :46:03.answered. There are indeed, and you know, this is an issue of Scotland
:46:03. > :46:06.or UK, this is an issue of huge dysfunction in the BBC many, many
:46:06. > :46:11.years ago. I agree with everything David said there, and he is right,
:46:11. > :46:16.you know, we have to get to the bottom of how it could go on,
:46:16. > :46:20.unnoticed or unreported. With people in authority, perhaps not
:46:20. > :46:26.taking decision they ought to have taken, even in the context of that
:46:26. > :46:30.time, because the scale of this, if it is all to be believed, it is
:46:30. > :46:36.breathtaking. At the risk of a very sharp gear change, moving from
:46:36. > :46:39.Jimmy Savile, to matters European, the EU. Clarify for us what your
:46:39. > :46:44.party and your Government in Scotland did and did not seek, as
:46:44. > :46:49.far as legal advice, about and independent Scotland's future in
:46:49. > :46:52.the European Union. What the Scottish Government had sought and
:46:52. > :46:56.the First Minister has been clear about this, and it came out in the
:46:56. > :47:03.full transcript of the interview with Andrew Neil. Is legal advice
:47:03. > :47:06.which underpin documents that are already published. Your Scotland,
:47:07. > :47:09.Your Voice. That is clear, that is the advice that was sought. In
:47:09. > :47:13.terms of more general add dries, that is being sought now and it
:47:13. > :47:17.makes sense to do it now, we have the Edinburgh agreement, so we have
:47:17. > :47:21.the legal basis upon which the referendum will be fought, an
:47:21. > :47:25.independence will be achieved. It is on that basis it is right now to
:47:25. > :47:29.ask for this more specific advice. The First Minister was asked
:47:29. > :47:33.directly "Have you sought legal advice on the add miss built of an
:47:33. > :47:39.independent Scotland to EU?" and he said yes. The First Minister said
:47:39. > :47:44.many things in that interview. You will be aware that the version
:47:44. > :47:50.which was circulating was heavily edited and it was a heavily edited
:47:50. > :47:53.interview. The point he has made is that which underpins existing
:47:53. > :47:57.published documents. He suggested to Andrew Neil he might like to
:47:57. > :48:01.read some of these in the interview. The First Minister has been
:48:01. > :48:06.consistent in what he said. Does that satisfy you? The bottom line
:48:06. > :48:09.and the question he has to answer is why did the Scottish Government
:48:09. > :48:15.spend tax payers' money on hiding legal advice that doesn't exist?
:48:15. > :48:17.That is the way we need an answer to from Alex Salmond and the SNP,
:48:18. > :48:21.straightforward and simple. As far as the British Government is
:48:21. > :48:26.concerned what is the situation, what do you belief the legal
:48:26. > :48:31.situation is? We believe it is not straightforward for Scotland to
:48:31. > :48:37.become a separate member of the EU, and there are all sorts of issues
:48:37. > :48:41.in relation to the currency. What surprises us, is that Mr Salmond,
:48:41. > :48:45.when advocating independence, doesn't have any substantive legal
:48:45. > :48:49.advice, to base all the assertions he makes it will just be a
:48:49. > :48:54.straightforward matter of Scotland becoming part of the EU. Clearly,
:48:54. > :48:59.it is not. It is absolutely unbelievable, in any view -- in my
:48:59. > :49:03.view to suggest that you were only in the interview talking about
:49:03. > :49:06.general advice, which was in the public domain, why, as Greg say,
:49:06. > :49:10.would you spend thousands of tax payers' money trying to hydrogen
:49:10. > :49:14.advice, that people already knew? Is this an issue that has to be
:49:14. > :49:19.settled now or is it something that can be sorted out before we have
:49:19. > :49:22.the referendum? I mean it seems to me the SNP resemble a flat earth
:49:22. > :49:27.society. Everyone knows that Scotland, if it leaves the United
:49:27. > :49:31.Kingdom will have to apply to the join the EU. At that stage there
:49:32. > :49:35.won't be any opt out in terms o the euro. To maintain that Scotland
:49:35. > :49:39.should leave the United Kingdom, and automatically imaginically
:49:39. > :49:45.become a member of the EU is not serious, and the Scottish people
:49:45. > :49:48.know that. These assertions are ridiculous, Scotland is part toe. U
:49:48. > :49:53.now when we become independent we won't be an accession country
:49:53. > :49:57.having to join, we will be a successor country, that is clear.
:49:57. > :50:01.So the scare stories being put about are really silly, in terms of
:50:01. > :50:05.not issues legal advice, no Government publishing legal advice,
:50:05. > :50:10.indeed this Government didn't publish the risk assessment for the
:50:10. > :50:15.privatisation of the NHS. Tooth and nail, opposed doing that. It is
:50:15. > :50:19.normal practise not to publish legal advice. It is normal practise
:50:19. > :50:25.to have the legal advice and what has been revealed you didn't vit.
:50:25. > :50:28.You precede on the basis of assertion. That is Mr Salmond's
:50:28. > :50:34.modus operandi and you have nothing to back it up. You have been found
:50:34. > :50:39.out and you one better to admit that than try and pretend there is
:50:39. > :50:43.wordsmithing that can let you off the Hook.. The difficulty is the
:50:43. > :50:48.unionist parties thought they had a smoking e-mail that said we
:50:48. > :50:52.couldn't join the EU, that is why they are angry. We will be a
:50:52. > :50:55.successor state that. Much is clear. We remain in the EU. It is right
:50:55. > :51:01.and proper to ask the specific questions now, that the Edinburgh
:51:01. > :51:06.agreement is signed sh and we know the legal basis on which the friend
:51:06. > :51:09.referendum will be held. We will have to leave it there. Thank you
:51:09. > :51:14.very much for joining us this afternoon. Somehow, Andrew, I think
:51:14. > :51:19.we will hear a lot more about this in the days and weeks and possibly
:51:19. > :51:24.months to come. Thank you. Let us diskiz it a bit further in the
:51:24. > :51:31.studio can Angus from the Times. I have the transcript here, Andrew
:51:31. > :51:37.Neil says "Have you sought advice from your own law officers. Alex
:51:37. > :51:42.Salmond: In terms of the debate and Andrew Neil interrupts hip. When he
:51:42. > :51:47.said debate he glided over the word, it was interesting to hear the
:51:47. > :51:51.interview. Think that you know, one thing, if anything has become clear
:51:51. > :51:57.in this, and I think Greg put his finger on it, if you are going to
:51:57. > :52:01.go to a Court of Session, and mount a legal action, then you are to
:52:01. > :52:06.assume that everyone is on a level playing field. In other words, the
:52:06. > :52:11.legal action was, it wasn't to say what the advice was, it was to say
:52:11. > :52:16.whether you held advice. Now, if you are spreeding on that basis
:52:16. > :52:20.then I think it is only -- spreeding on that basis it is only
:52:20. > :52:24.right to aseem -- assume that people think you have, you have
:52:24. > :52:28.something that you don't want to say, and I think, in this case, the
:52:28. > :52:32.First Minister has to answer the question, why he went to the Court
:52:32. > :52:39.of Session, why he spent that money when he was trying to keep a secret
:52:39. > :52:43.that actually didn't exist. It is bizarre. OK. Thank you. Another law
:52:43. > :52:48.related issue now, the head of Scotland's new single police force
:52:48. > :52:52.said there is no plan to use police officers to back fill civilian
:52:52. > :52:57.staff. Chief Constable Steven Howe was speaking at the justice
:52:57. > :53:00.committee in his first appearance before MSPs since his appointment.
:53:00. > :53:04.Here is a taste of the exchange yesterday. There is a bit of
:53:04. > :53:08.confusion about what is happening between the balance of police
:53:08. > :53:13.officers and civilian posts, because the First Minister denies
:53:13. > :53:16.that police officers are increasingly doing civilian jobs
:53:16. > :53:21.but the Cabinet secretary's police reform sub group plans make it
:53:21. > :53:25.clear that cuts to police staff will be delivered by police
:53:25. > :53:35.officers performing basic administrative duty themselves. Can
:53:35. > :53:35.
:53:36. > :53:38.I ask you whose view your share? answer your question directly
:53:38. > :53:42.because Mr Pearson commented earlier, the answer to that would
:53:42. > :53:48.be that it would be the First Minister's. But let me expand on
:53:48. > :53:53.that by saying that there is no there is no plan there is no
:53:53. > :53:58.strategy, which, that I am in charge of, in terms of reform,
:53:58. > :54:03.which is predicated on back filling. I think we cleared up in the early
:54:03. > :54:08.session, I don't know regards back- filling as a good thing or
:54:08. > :54:12.desirable thing. It is a bad thing and should be avoided. The first bg
:54:12. > :54:18.session I think it was concluded it was happening. Well, it may be
:54:18. > :54:22.happening in individual cases, and isolated cases, but I am not aware
:54:22. > :54:26.of it happening as a set strategy, anywhere in Scotland. It is not
:54:26. > :54:30.something I would support at this moment in time. You are reported in
:54:30. > :54:35.the press as saying you believe there could be up to 3,000
:54:35. > :54:37.redundancy bus you thought that was a worse case scenario. Is there
:54:38. > :54:42.anything else that you can say about that that you could share
:54:42. > :54:47.with the committee? I think the way the 3,000 has come about is a very
:54:47. > :54:51.simple method, which is somebody has looked at the gap between the
:54:51. > :54:58.budget and cost, the gap I have referred to in the past, but I
:54:58. > :55:03.think they have looked at it over a number of year, as big as it can be,
:55:03. > :55:09.divied that by 26,000 which is your average cost of a member of support
:55:09. > :55:14.staff and come up with a figure of 3,000. It's a quantity, it is a way
:55:14. > :55:21.of quantifying and understandably, making very stark budget gap. But I
:55:21. > :55:26.have said already this morning, to this group, that we are
:55:26. > :55:30.prioritising all non-staff costs first. To identify where we can
:55:30. > :55:35.make savings that won't affect people's jobs. After that, we are
:55:35. > :55:39.looking at a voluntary redundancy poll six which is effectively
:55:39. > :55:44.saying to somebody who wants to go, we will leave you go here. Then,
:55:44. > :55:48.you are left with what else can we do to make these savings? So, I
:55:48. > :55:53.think the 3,000 is a figure that I didn't put out there it was
:55:53. > :55:58.suggested by someone else, and I was asked to comment, is this the
:55:58. > :56:05.absolute upper limit? Well, technically speaking, yes. Do I
:56:05. > :56:09.think it is a realistic figure? Not really. Chief Constable Steven
:56:09. > :56:12.House. Angus, as the new police force is formed, it's a bit of a
:56:12. > :56:16.political headache for the Government to look at such a big
:56:16. > :56:23.funding gap as the chief was pointing out. Steve House was
:56:23. > :56:27.talking about a �70 million gap. I think he has had a bit of an
:56:27. > :56:32.uncomfortable fist few weeks in the post. He didn't talk about 3,000
:56:32. > :56:37.back room jobs having to go in the police in Scotland, but the problem
:56:37. > :56:41.was he was asked a question. He has learn add very valuable lesson, you
:56:41. > :56:45.are asked a question, there that is rather loaded. Do you think it will
:56:45. > :56:48.be up to 3,000 or whatever? He should have seen the dangers there,
:56:48. > :56:53.he should have seen whatever answer, unless he nailed that and knocked
:56:53. > :56:59.that figure down, then it was going to appear as if he was saying that
:56:59. > :57:03.up to 3,000 jobs were about to go, so he has learned a valuable lesson.
:57:03. > :57:06.He will have to be more careful when he deals with the Scottish
:57:06. > :57:11.media. Talking about that, the Scottish Government have had a
:57:11. > :57:15.difficult time over the past couple of day, it has been the main eschew
:57:15. > :57:19.focusing on the programme, do you think it goes to the fabg that
:57:19. > :57:24.Europe is at the heart of the independence debate, do you think
:57:24. > :57:29.that is one of the reasons the parties react to it in a crucial
:57:29. > :57:34.way? I have long thought whatever the prose and cons on independence
:57:34. > :57:39.and the various arguments that go on, if the feeling began to grow in
:57:40. > :57:44.Scotland, that an independent Scotland, even if might have to use
:57:44. > :57:47.the single currency the euro that would be toxic for the SNP and
:57:47. > :57:53.Scotland. I cannot see any way that the people of Scotland would vote
:57:53. > :57:58.for that, and I think that is why Alex Salmond was perhaps quite keen
:57:58. > :58:02.to avoid answering the question about what his legal advice maigt
:58:02. > :58:07.sigh. If this had been ten years ago joining the euro would seem
:58:07. > :58:12.like an easy option. In the heady days when independence in Europe
:58:12. > :58:16.was the battle cry absolutely, but the world has moved on and changed
:58:16. > :58:20.and suddenly the pound sterling seems a sensible option. Thank you
:58:20. > :58:25.for that and your company here as well. And you can keep up-to-date
:58:25. > :58:28.with all the developments on that story on Newsnight Scotland at 11
:58:28. > :58:35.here on BBC Two, with Gordon Brewer. That is all we have time for this
:58:35. > :58:39.week. We are back at the same time next week. 2.30 here on BBC Two and
:58:39. > :58:42.you can keep up-to-date with all the political developments at