0:00:19 > 0:00:20Good afternoon.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22Welcome back to Politics Scotland.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25On the programme today.
0:00:25 > 0:00:33The First Minister Nicola Sturgeon appeared before the Conveners Group
0:00:33 > 0:00:35of the Scottish Parliament.
0:00:35 > 0:00:41And fire stations are to be closed and firefighters cut
0:00:41 > 0:00:44as management say the current system can't be sustained.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47And here at Westminster, the Brexit Secretary, David Davis,
0:00:47 > 0:00:50has suggested MPs may not get a vote on any Brexit deal until after
0:00:50 > 0:00:53the UK has left the EU.
0:00:53 > 0:00:58Hello and welcome.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00With me today throughout the programme is
0:01:00 > 0:01:04political commentator Rebecca McQuillan.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07But before we talk to Rebecca let's hear from Holyrood because
0:01:07 > 0:01:09conveners there have been quizzing Nicola Sturgeon this afternoon.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Our Correspondent Andrew Kerr can tell us more.
0:01:11 > 0:01:17Andrew, what have they been doing? Good afternoon Gordon, this is the
0:01:17 > 0:01:23group at the Scottish parliament, they have spent one hour 20 minutes
0:01:23 > 0:01:31going to the Scottish minister and each member of the committee was
0:01:31 > 0:01:35able to ask about their individual area so we started with Brexit. The
0:01:35 > 0:01:39First Minister was once more critical of what she saw as a power
0:01:39 > 0:01:46grab by the UK Government with the powers coming back from Brussels she
0:01:46 > 0:01:50is of course opposed to that and says the devolution settlement is of
0:01:50 > 0:01:58course affected. She was asked about citizens's income, this income would
0:01:58 > 0:02:04replace all benefits and citizens would be paid a high level of income
0:02:04 > 0:02:08as one kind of standard benefit, I suppose. The First Minister not
0:02:08 > 0:02:13committed to Ed Baird is committed to looking at the feasibility of it.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17She was talking about that as well. I suppose one bit where we got to
0:02:17 > 0:02:25the real grit of the matter, as it were, the real politics of it, was
0:02:25 > 0:02:34when MSP Niall Findlay talked about the review of NHS targets, that
0:02:34 > 0:02:38review being carried out by the former Chief Medical Officer for
0:02:38 > 0:02:41Scotland, Harry Burns looking at these targets, Mr Finlay questioned
0:02:41 > 0:02:46why this review had not been in the public domain. Let's find what he
0:02:46 > 0:02:53said about that towe have not set a publication date yet but it will be
0:02:53 > 0:02:57published soon and the Health Secretary will keep your committee
0:02:57 > 0:03:01fully advised.Has that a broad bean across your desk...I have not seen
0:03:01 > 0:03:09the report. -- has that report bean across the desk.Will it see the
0:03:09 > 0:03:14light of day this year?I would hope so. I'm not going to give you a
0:03:14 > 0:03:17guarantee because we don't have a date for publication yet. I will be
0:03:17 > 0:03:26frank with you. This is work that is important to the government.
0:03:26 > 0:03:31OK, Andrew, Niall Findlay was having a bit of ago but was the general
0:03:31 > 0:03:35term interrogative? I seem to remember when this was set up the
0:03:35 > 0:03:40idea was that these committees was supposed to be more powerful than
0:03:40 > 0:03:43committees and Westminster were supposed to be, grilling the First
0:03:43 > 0:03:46Minister, holding her to account for areas that they were responsible
0:03:46 > 0:03:53for. Is that really happening?That point was made by Margaret Mitchell
0:03:53 > 0:03:56the Conservative MSP who said the committees were being treated like a
0:03:56 > 0:04:03legislative machine. There is maybe not that opportunity for scrutiny of
0:04:03 > 0:04:06government. And in a way the atmosphere at the meeting this
0:04:06 > 0:04:13afternoon was Collegiate, in a way. It wasn't hugely party political.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17Perhaps the actual parliamentary chamber, the plenary sessions, the
0:04:17 > 0:04:21Forum for that party political aspect, this was the committee
0:04:21 > 0:04:29conveners, asking, in a perhaps non-partisan way, but in a way that
0:04:29 > 0:04:34concerned all members, whoever they might be from, as you say, Gordon,
0:04:34 > 0:04:40it didn't quite get to that real political anger, or political point,
0:04:40 > 0:04:44as it were, I think Niall Findlay got the closest to it in that clip
0:04:44 > 0:04:51that we saw. I suppose it's worthwhile, the committee Conveners
0:04:51 > 0:04:58grilling the First Minister like this, not as exciting as we might
0:04:58 > 0:05:02have wanted to see. In Westminster the Speaker of that has of commerce,
0:05:02 > 0:05:05John Berger, has been critical of Theresa May because she has not yet
0:05:05 > 0:05:11appeared in front of an equivalent committee so at least we seen the
0:05:11 > 0:05:17First Minister do that here at Holyrood.Andrew, thank you. De
0:05:17 > 0:05:22Bakker, there is a general point about this. This was supposed to be
0:05:22 > 0:05:33part of this brand newfangled democracy in Scotland. People like
0:05:33 > 0:05:37the former Speaker have questioned whether it is really working.I
0:05:37 > 0:05:39thinkINAUDIBLE Points that occur to me, listening
0:05:39 > 0:05:48to that. One is, when the Scottish parliament was set up, it was
0:05:48 > 0:05:54supposed to be more collegiate. We were supposed to get rid of that
0:05:54 > 0:05:58confrontational atmosphere we have in Parliament and Westminster.
0:05:58 > 0:06:05Certainly didn't work in the main chamber in Hollywood. We still have
0:06:05 > 0:06:08First Minister's Questions basically mirroring... The other side was that
0:06:08 > 0:06:12committees were supposed to be more powerful and in the spirit of
0:06:12 > 0:06:15nonpartisanship, that did not mean that they would not be grilling the
0:06:15 > 0:06:19First Minister and saying, you haven't done what you said you
0:06:19 > 0:06:23would, we demand this. And there have been criticisms of the
0:06:23 > 0:06:26committee is particularly when the SNP had a majority and a lot of
0:06:26 > 0:06:34committee Conveners were SNP MSP is, that they were not doing that job
0:06:34 > 0:06:39properly. You could bring that criticism and say that it could have
0:06:39 > 0:06:45been a bit more confrontational and held the First Minister to account a
0:06:45 > 0:06:51bit more.But in one sense it is not that that doesn't happen in
0:06:51 > 0:06:57Parliament. We do see that.The former Speaker had a list of reform
0:06:57 > 0:07:01suggestions when she left, is anyone taking that seriously, any
0:07:01 > 0:07:13discussion going on?I'm not sure. But I think this will be a subject
0:07:13 > 0:07:16of ongoing discussion, particularly opposition MSP 's will want to know
0:07:16 > 0:07:21that the First Minister is being held to account.All right, Rebecca,
0:07:21 > 0:07:27don't go away, we'll talk to you in a while.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30Documents seen by the BBC show plans are being drawn up to close
0:07:30 > 0:07:32fire stations and cut fire fighter numbers.
0:07:32 > 0:07:33The papers, circulated to senior management
0:07:33 > 0:07:36in the Scottish Fire Service, say the current model cannot be
0:07:36 > 0:07:38sustained beyond the end of the financial year,
0:07:38 > 0:07:40but that public safety will be their priority.
0:07:40 > 0:07:46Our correspondent, Lucy Adams, reports.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49It is an instantly recognisable service and one the public relies
0:07:49 > 0:07:58on. It has changed over time but managers say the current model is 70
0:07:58 > 0:08:04years old and now needs a radical overhaul. In 2013 Scotland's eight
0:08:04 > 0:08:09Fire brigades were reorganised into one service. Since then around 1000
0:08:09 > 0:08:16staff have been cut, and the front line protected. But leaked documents
0:08:16 > 0:08:21say the current model is not sustainable beyond this year and
0:08:21 > 0:08:26some stations will have to be closed and some firefighters cut. But there
0:08:26 > 0:08:33is a quid pro quota of staff agree to the changes and taking an new
0:08:33 > 0:08:36responsibilities including tackling terrorism and providing emergency
0:08:36 > 0:08:40medical care they will get a great player offer than their counterparts
0:08:40 > 0:08:45in England and Wales. The union says dozens of fire engines already have
0:08:45 > 0:08:50to be taken off operational duties each day because of insufficient
0:08:50 > 0:08:55crewmembers. So cuts will have an even bigger impact.We are concerned
0:08:55 > 0:08:59that if you remove those operational firefighters and appliances which
0:08:59 > 0:09:08are a reason, and they haven't been removed as a response to the risk
0:09:08 > 0:09:13that still exists in those communities so they been removed for
0:09:13 > 0:09:18a financial reason has to be some consequence of compromise somewhere.
0:09:18 > 0:09:23But the fire chief of Scotland says changes essential.Do we need the
0:09:23 > 0:09:29number of fire stations with God? Is it appropriate in a modern service
0:09:29 > 0:09:34delivery model? Is that the best way to improve outcomes and the outcome
0:09:34 > 0:09:38is what I'm talking about does it help us to save lives. It's not
0:09:38 > 0:09:42about numbers of firefighters, not about numbers of buildings, it is
0:09:42 > 0:09:47how do we put those resources together in a way that helps us to
0:09:47 > 0:09:53do what we are all about?The Scottish Government says it has
0:09:53 > 0:09:57increased funding and it is up to the Fire Service to decide how and
0:09:57 > 0:10:02where it is spent. But in January before the service makes any changes
0:10:02 > 0:10:05it will ask the public what they think.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07Well, in the Scottish Parliament today, Scottish Labour's
0:10:07 > 0:10:08justice spokesperson, Claire Baker, was granted
0:10:08 > 0:10:13an emergency question on the issue.
0:10:13 > 0:10:20Here is what the community 's safety Minister Annabelle Ewing said.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23Firefighters play a vital role in protecting communities and the Fire
0:10:23 > 0:10:27Service continues to deliver the highest service required to keep
0:10:27 > 0:10:31Scotland safe. Since the establishment of the Fire and Rescue
0:10:31 > 0:10:34Service in 2013 have been no compulsory redundancies and front
0:10:34 > 0:10:38line services have been protected with no closure of any fire stations
0:10:38 > 0:10:43in Scotland. A Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is currently
0:10:43 > 0:10:47exploring and developed to meet the new emerging risks facing
0:10:47 > 0:10:50communities such as her transformation of service delivery
0:10:50 > 0:10:54could see the service to more for the people of Scotland. No decisions
0:10:54 > 0:10:57had been made on what that transformation would look like and
0:10:57 > 0:11:03the transformation process will involve liaison and discussion with
0:11:03 > 0:11:07staff, partners and the public. The Presiding Officer of the Scottish
0:11:07 > 0:11:14Government has increased the overall budget of the service this year by
0:11:14 > 0:11:18£21.7 million, to support investment in equipment and resources. I am in
0:11:18 > 0:11:22regular discussion with the Chief Fire Officer and the Scottish Fire
0:11:22 > 0:11:25and Rescue Service chair on the Scottish Government's funding of the
0:11:25 > 0:11:34service next year and beyond.It's a bit complicated, do you understand
0:11:34 > 0:11:40this?Not in detail.One of the issues seems to be because these
0:11:40 > 0:11:45retained firefighters have other jobs, so that fire engines in fire
0:11:45 > 0:11:50stations, which are lying there for a day, during daylight hours because
0:11:50 > 0:12:00they can't get a full crew for them, so you've got a lot of kit that
0:12:00 > 0:12:05isn't used and they seem to be suggesting getting rid of some of
0:12:05 > 0:12:09the stations, and perhaps using some of these part-timers in full-time
0:12:09 > 0:12:14fire stations as well. Is that roughly understanding?Roughly along
0:12:14 > 0:12:19those lines. It sounds as if a lot of those so-called retained
0:12:19 > 0:12:21firefighters, part-time firefighters, are particularly
0:12:21 > 0:12:26predominate in rural areas where the majority of these fire stations are.
0:12:26 > 0:12:32The difficulty has arisen their because as Lucy Adams said in that
0:12:32 > 0:12:36report you had a situation 50 years ago where people might live locally,
0:12:36 > 0:12:41now in a community people might commute to work, a long way, and do
0:12:41 > 0:12:47jobs that don't allow them to respond to emergency calls.Before
0:12:47 > 0:12:51it sounds as if we are just doing a management consultation exercise
0:12:51 > 0:12:56about how to plan the Fire Service, presumably the unions would say that
0:12:56 > 0:13:01if you paid people instead of using part-time firefighters the kit would
0:13:01 > 0:13:05be used!Listening to Annabelle Ewing in her statement there, she
0:13:05 > 0:13:11talks about £21 million increase in funding to the Scottish Fire and
0:13:11 > 0:13:16Rescue Service. Yes, there may have been a rise but or the unions are
0:13:16 > 0:13:22saying is that in real terms they are facing a cat, and in fact last
0:13:22 > 0:13:25year report was done on the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and said
0:13:25 > 0:13:29that by the end of the decade they could face a funding gap of £43
0:13:29 > 0:13:35million. So we are talking about more money at the back of all of
0:13:35 > 0:13:39this.And the line from the government, we give them money,
0:13:39 > 0:13:43everything else is an operational matter for the Fire Service. It's
0:13:43 > 0:13:49like Jeremy Paxman and Michael Howard floating before my eyes.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51Now, it's been a busy week at Westminster.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53The Labour MP for Sheffield Hallam, Jared O'Mara, has been
0:13:53 > 0:13:55suspended from the party, and the Brexit Secretary,
0:13:55 > 0:13:57David Davis, is speaking to the Committee for Exiting
0:13:57 > 0:13:59the European Union.
0:13:59 > 0:14:00Our Westminster correpondent, David Porter, has the latest.
0:14:00 > 0:14:06First, Jared O'Mara.
0:14:06 > 0:14:11David, first tell us about this business to do with Jared O'Mara.
0:14:11 > 0:14:16That seems to have escalated dramatically in the last few hours.
0:14:16 > 0:14:22Yes, it has. From what Labour say privately, it is perhaps because new
0:14:22 > 0:14:24information and new allegations have come to light. He has been suspended
0:14:24 > 0:14:31from the Labour Party in the official parlance, he has had the
0:14:31 > 0:14:33whip withdrawn. Jared O'Mara, those with good memories will remember
0:14:33 > 0:14:40that he was the Labour candidate who defeated Nick Clegg, the Liberal
0:14:40 > 0:14:51Democrat leader, in the Sheffield Hallam seat. A number of tweets have
0:14:51 > 0:14:56come to light from several years ago which suggested sexist and
0:14:56 > 0:14:59misogynist comments, he has apologised, it seems one of his
0:14:59 > 0:15:02constituents complained about him more recently and there may be more
0:15:02 > 0:15:10information which has come to light and they feel that they should
0:15:10 > 0:15:14suspend him while they investigate. It certainly became apparent of a
0:15:14 > 0:15:17late yesterday and last night and this morning that there were a
0:15:17 > 0:15:21number of women, Labour MPs, who felt that the comments that he had
0:15:21 > 0:15:24been alleged to have made were inappropriate and they had come out
0:15:24 > 0:15:28on the record and said he should be suspended and that is exactly what
0:15:28 > 0:15:35has happened now.David Davis.
0:15:35 > 0:15:40You can have a vote on something, only after we have done it.This is
0:15:40 > 0:15:45a novel way of dealing with politics and democracy. It seems curious that
0:15:45 > 0:15:50you say, you can have a vote on this issue, but you can have a vote on it
0:15:50 > 0:15:55when we have decided what is going to happen. What has been happening,
0:15:55 > 0:15:58he was giving evidence to the Committee for Exiting the European
0:15:58 > 0:16:03Union and it was put to him, what happens if the negotiations go down
0:16:03 > 0:16:08to the wire? He said he believed that could be true, we could be
0:16:08 > 0:16:16negotiating with the EU up until the life date in March 2019. And, could
0:16:16 > 0:16:21those negotiations go on so late that MPs do not have a chance to
0:16:21 > 0:16:27vote on it before leaving the EU? He suggested that was the case. The
0:16:27 > 0:16:31premise is said that would not be the case. It does seem an
0:16:31 > 0:16:37extraordinary scenario that we could have left the EU and MPs get asked
0:16:37 > 0:16:43to approve the deal. It is fair to say on the committee, there was a
0:16:43 > 0:16:47bit of puzzlement about that, and there will be a lot of anger by MPs
0:16:47 > 0:16:52if they thought there was any possibility that this could happen.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55David Davis should phone Nicola Sturgeon and Derek Mackay, they
0:16:55 > 0:17:00would love the idea that the Scottish budget could be voted on
0:17:00 > 0:17:05only after it has been gone through. Yes, that is a new way of doing
0:17:05 > 0:17:08democracy and is like saying, democracy is all about the voting,
0:17:08 > 0:17:12but the real power lies in the people who count the votes. On the
0:17:12 > 0:17:16face of it, it seems an extraordinary proposition to get to
0:17:16 > 0:17:21a situation whereby you are asking MPs to vote on something that
0:17:21 > 0:17:27happens and basically was an accomplished task because we had
0:17:27 > 0:17:31left the EU and that goes down to where you say, watch this space.
0:17:31 > 0:17:43Both these issues, Jared O'Mara and the David Davis comments, came at
0:17:43 > 0:17:48PMQs and this is a flavour of what happened.Last week, Mr Speaker, the
0:17:48 > 0:17:59House voted by 299-0 to pause the roll-out of Universal Credit. Will
0:17:59 > 0:18:09the Prime Minister respect the will of the House?As I have said before,
0:18:09 > 0:18:13we acknowledge the fact that there are concerns people have raised with
0:18:13 > 0:18:16Universal Credit, that is way as we have been rolling it out, we have
0:18:16 > 0:18:20been listening to those and changes have been made. Perhaps I could
0:18:20 > 0:18:26update the House on where we are and that roll-out of Universal Credit.
0:18:26 > 0:18:30Currently, of people claiming benefits, 8% on Universal Credit. By
0:18:30 > 0:18:36January next year, that will rise to 10%. The roll-out is being conducted
0:18:36 > 0:18:42in three phases and the intention is it will be completed by 2022. So it
0:18:42 > 0:18:49is done in a measured way and I am pleased to say that four out of five
0:18:49 > 0:18:52people are satisfied or very satisfied with the servers that they
0:18:52 > 0:19:01are receiving. -- service. Universal Credit helps people into the
0:19:01 > 0:19:05workplace and it make sure that work pays, and that is what the welfare
0:19:05 > 0:19:10system should do. The sad truth is that Universal
0:19:10 > 0:19:14Credit is in such a mess that councils are forced to pick up the
0:19:14 > 0:19:19bill. I will give an example, Croydon Council, which piloted the
0:19:19 > 0:19:25scheme, is now spending £3 million of its own budget to prevent tenants
0:19:25 > 0:19:29from being evicted due to rent arrears caused by Universal Credit.
0:19:29 > 0:19:35Does the Prime Minister think it is right or fair that the hard-pressed
0:19:35 > 0:19:37local authorities, having their budget cut by central government,
0:19:37 > 0:19:41are having to dip into what little money they have left in order to
0:19:41 > 0:19:45prevent people being affected when they know it is the responsibility
0:19:45 > 0:19:48of this Government and its system of Universal Credit that is causing the
0:19:48 > 0:19:52problem! For the vast majority of people on
0:19:52 > 0:19:56Universal Credit, this is not an issue managing their budget. And
0:19:56 > 0:20:00after four months, the number of people on Universal Credit who are
0:20:00 > 0:20:09in arrears has fallen by a third. But we recognise the issue, so we
0:20:09 > 0:20:12are working with landlords. We have built flexibility into the system so
0:20:12 > 0:20:18that landlords can be paid directly. And I want to be clear that nobody
0:20:18 > 0:20:22can be legally affected from social housing due to short-term rent
0:20:22 > 0:20:26arrears. -- convicted. Yesterday, the
0:20:26 > 0:20:33Scottish Parliament voted by 91-28 to ban fracking in Scotland. Can I
0:20:33 > 0:20:36ask the Prime Minister why she would not consider following Scotland's
0:20:36 > 0:20:42lead and introducing a moratorium in the rest of the United Kingdom in
0:20:42 > 0:20:45order that we can have a full evaluation of the health and
0:20:45 > 0:20:50environmental consequences of this and in order that the public can be
0:20:50 > 0:20:55consulted? Can I say the honourable gentleman
0:20:55 > 0:21:01that this is an issue on which he and I simply going to disagree I
0:21:01 > 0:21:04believe that shale Gast does have the potential to power economic
0:21:04 > 0:21:08growth and it will support thousands of jobs in the oil and gas
0:21:08 > 0:21:11industries and other sectors and will provide a new domestic energy
0:21:11 > 0:21:15source. We have more than 50 years of drilling experience in the UK and
0:21:15 > 0:21:18one of the best records in the world for economic development while
0:21:18 > 0:21:25protecting our environment. Shell Wealth fund will provide up to £1
0:21:25 > 0:21:28billion of additional resources to local communities, local councils
0:21:28 > 0:21:33will retain 100% of the business rates they collect from shale gas
0:21:33 > 0:21:38developments. We will bring forward further proposals for this, but this
0:21:38 > 0:21:42is an important new source of energy and I think it is right to ensure
0:21:42 > 0:21:45that we use this and take the benefit from it for our economy,
0:21:45 > 0:21:53jobs and people's futures. PMQs from earlier today. I am pleased to say I
0:21:53 > 0:22:01am now joined by a group of Scottish MPs to discuss PMQs.And Brexit. And
0:22:01 > 0:22:06behind us, we have protesters with EU and union flags. Never let it be
0:22:06 > 0:22:12said, Gordon, we don't try and get protesters who at least on the
0:22:12 > 0:22:15subject today. First, met me introduce you to our panel. Alistair
0:22:15 > 0:22:19Comey call for the Liberal Democrats, Deirdre rock for the SNP
0:22:19 > 0:22:26and Colin Hart for the Conservatives. And for Labour... We
0:22:26 > 0:22:31have had the Brexit Secretary today say MPs may get a vote on the Brexit
0:22:31 > 0:22:36deal, but only when we have left the EU.That is just typical of the
0:22:36 > 0:22:39contempt for Parliament to the Conservative government has shown
0:22:39 > 0:22:43for Brexit and it is unacceptable that is known meaningful ability to
0:22:43 > 0:22:49scrutinise this deal. The idea to drop out of the EU Wid no deal is a
0:22:49 > 0:22:54disaster and as a democratic body, we have no meaningful way of
0:22:54 > 0:22:57influencing that, it is outrageous. To put it mouthy, it seems strange
0:22:57 > 0:23:01as an elected MP you could vote on this one is we are officially out of
0:23:01 > 0:23:06the EU.Angela Merkel has made the point of this week that we are going
0:23:06 > 0:23:11to get some sort of agreement. This is a negotiation and as has been
0:23:11 > 0:23:14said this week, how could we negotiate a price when we do not
0:23:14 > 0:23:18know what we are buying? This is a grown-up negotiation with Europe, it
0:23:18 > 0:23:22is complex and David Davis is doing a great job.We know that you do not
0:23:22 > 0:23:27agree with the UK Government on the very principle of Brexit. The
0:23:27 > 0:23:31argument from David Davis is, this could go to the wire and it probably
0:23:31 > 0:23:37will go to the wire. So we may find we are out before you as MPs get a
0:23:37 > 0:23:41chance.It just doesn't make sense, does it? I don't think Labour or the
0:23:41 > 0:23:46Conservatives are in a position to argue about Brexit, still not clear
0:23:46 > 0:23:50on Labour's position and there was so little discussion at PMQs, it was
0:23:50 > 0:23:53quite shameful, it is such an important issue and it was a
0:23:53 > 0:24:00throwaway remark from Jeremy Corbyn. Is it tenable that you could not
0:24:00 > 0:24:04vote on something as big as this? The truth is, the Conservatives
0:24:04 > 0:24:08don't want to give anybody a say because they are wanting to manage
0:24:08 > 0:24:13this through their own interests and not the national interest. And as
0:24:13 > 0:24:16far as David Davis is concerned, it has got to be said, any vote in
0:24:16 > 0:24:21Parliament is going to struggle to be meaningful. This was a process
0:24:21 > 0:24:25that was started with a referendum and it should be concluded with a
0:24:25 > 0:24:29referendum. Once we know the terms of the deal and what Brexit is
0:24:29 > 0:24:32actually going to be, what is being offered, at that point, there should
0:24:32 > 0:24:38be a referendum on that, that is the only way you will ever thought that
0:24:38 > 0:24:42she will ever settle this.It appears the Scottish and UK
0:24:42 > 0:24:44governments have done it economic assessments on the potential impact
0:24:44 > 0:24:50of Brexit. Yet we're not getting that information.Nobody wants to
0:24:50 > 0:24:54say what it is they are finding. The SNP are doing exactly the same thing
0:24:54 > 0:24:58as the Conservatives in London, they are managing this through their own
0:24:58 > 0:25:01party interests, rather than the national interest. If we are to get
0:25:01 > 0:25:05to the point of the national interest, then this should be put
0:25:05 > 0:25:08out in the public domain, and if they have nothing to hide, they
0:25:08 > 0:25:13should have no problem publishing it.That is ridiculous, actually.
0:25:13 > 0:25:19The SNP have been arguing for that impact report to be released from
0:25:19 > 0:25:21weeks, months, we did ask the Secretary of State yesterday at
0:25:21 > 0:25:25Scottish affairs and he admitted for the first time I think that such a
0:25:25 > 0:25:29report actually existed, which was progress, and that he was going to
0:25:29 > 0:25:32give it to us. We need this information as soon as possible,
0:25:32 > 0:25:36this is the most erratic situation facing the UK since the world wars
0:25:36 > 0:25:40and we are not give any information to prepare people for the effects of
0:25:40 > 0:25:46Brexit in the future.We understand the argument you what giving the
0:25:46 > 0:25:50negotiating position away, but you as an MP and more importantly the
0:25:50 > 0:25:53general public and the vote should know what Brexit could mean and the
0:25:53 > 0:25:57latest research on that?It is pretty remarkable that the United
0:25:57 > 0:26:02Kingdom since the Brexit vote and the general election with the two
0:26:02 > 0:26:06main parties standing on the Brexit position, that we are still
0:26:06 > 0:26:09discussing a further referendum. This offers opportunities and if we
0:26:09 > 0:26:13are anything in the Government, we are optimistic we will get a good
0:26:13 > 0:26:18result and for the economy of this country. Whether it is SNP, the
0:26:18 > 0:26:21Liberals, there is constant pessimism. The economy is doing
0:26:21 > 0:26:27relatively well, we have to get behind it.Actually, everything is
0:26:27 > 0:26:30going to be fine, let's just have a bit of confidence?It is quite
0:26:30 > 0:26:34remarkable the biggest single risk to this country's economic
0:26:34 > 0:26:38prosperity is this hard Brexit. Yet there is no opportunity to
0:26:38 > 0:26:41scrutinise or to look at the information rationally because it
0:26:41 > 0:26:46has been buried by the Government, what a contemptuous attitude towards
0:26:46 > 0:26:50our democracy, it is absolutely outrageous!We have the life that
0:26:50 > 0:26:55there, thank you very much. Gordon, we bring you nice weather, we bring
0:26:55 > 0:26:59you flags from Westminster, what more could you want?!
0:26:59 > 0:27:05You say nice weather, when have you ever brought was anything else?You
0:27:05 > 0:27:08know what they say, the Sun shines on the righteous! That is what they
0:27:08 > 0:27:14told me to say, anyway! Lets not to tempt fake. Stick with it while it
0:27:14 > 0:27:18is going well.They are waving flags right in your honour behind your
0:27:18 > 0:27:24head! Fangs.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28Fergus Ewing is making a ministerial statement on Common agricultural
0:27:28 > 0:27:35policy. Nothing has happened. As I have said
0:27:35 > 0:27:38before, the review is important because it will highlight the vast
0:27:38 > 0:27:43discrepancies in payment rates North and South of the border. The review
0:27:43 > 0:27:49would highlight that hill farmers are paid around 600 euros per
0:27:49 > 0:27:58hectare and we can only pay ours around ten -- 60 euros. The open
0:27:58 > 0:28:00sheepskin is not used elsewhere in the UK and this brings payments to
0:28:00 > 0:28:08help farmers up to around 30 euros per hectare. Although not directly
0:28:08 > 0:28:14comparable, farmers in Wales there even better than English bombers on
0:28:14 > 0:28:17average. I recently raise the issue again with Michael Gove at a
0:28:17 > 0:28:25multilateral meeting in September. I'd can say Michael Gove agreed to a
0:28:25 > 0:28:27meeting to discuss the convergence issue which has been arranged for
0:28:27 > 0:28:33November the six and I am hopeful we can find a satisfactory resolution.
0:28:33 > 0:28:37Helpfully, our stakeholders have also been on the case. A joint
0:28:37 > 0:28:42letter signed by seven of our key stakeholders was said to Michael
0:28:42 > 0:28:47Gove on the 11th of September and it mirrors the Scottish Government
0:28:47 > 0:28:51position on convergence. It was sent over a month ago, but I understand
0:28:51 > 0:28:59they have still not had a reply. So that is our case. I am determined to
0:28:59 > 0:29:04get a fairer deal for our farmers. Especially those most disadvantaged.
0:29:04 > 0:29:08It is a clear matter of principle. And it is not just about
0:29:08 > 0:29:11repatriation of the convergence funds that the EU plainly intended
0:29:11 > 0:29:14for farmers, farmers who received the lowest payment rates per hectare
0:29:14 > 0:29:21in the EU, it is also about setting a baseline for future agricultural
0:29:21 > 0:29:25funding. Unless the UK Government acknowledges that Scottish farmers
0:29:25 > 0:29:31were poorly treated in this last round, how can we rely on them to
0:29:31 > 0:29:36treat our farmers fairly in future Russian mark in conclusion, I am
0:29:36 > 0:29:40grateful for the strong support that has been given to government's
0:29:40 > 0:29:44position from members across the chamber and I trust I can rely on
0:29:44 > 0:29:54members, all members to continue their support on the matter.
0:29:54 > 0:29:58Thank you, we moved to questions, Peter Chapman.
0:29:58 > 0:30:09Thank you, Presiding Officer... Before we talk about this Brexit
0:30:09 > 0:30:15business, just tell us about the row about late payments which dominated
0:30:15 > 0:30:19things earlier, has that been resolved now?It is being resolved,
0:30:19 > 0:30:24I would not say it has been entirely resolved. The Scottish government
0:30:24 > 0:30:27have had huge challenges in making the IT system work efficiently and
0:30:27 > 0:30:32effectively and delivering payments both in 2015, 2016 and is now in
0:30:32 > 0:30:392017. At the Scottish Government have taken our advice and guidance
0:30:39 > 0:30:45and have stepped in again to deliver another so-called loan scheme for
0:30:45 > 0:30:502017 which means a lot of payments are going out to Scottish farmers as
0:30:50 > 0:30:54we speak, which is providing much-needed money ahead of what
0:30:54 > 0:31:00promises to be a very challenging winter indeed.And the hope,
0:31:00 > 0:31:04presumably, is that the IT system is sorted for the next round?The
0:31:04 > 0:31:08sooner the better for everybody. Clearly, you can have all sorts of
0:31:08 > 0:31:13enquiries and statements about the functioning of the IT system, but it
0:31:13 > 0:31:17has failed spectacularly over a number of years to deliver CAP
0:31:17 > 0:31:30payments to Scottish farmers in a timely fashion.
0:31:33 > 0:31:39But I am not here to rake over the coals, and reignite arguments about
0:31:39 > 0:31:42that, I think the sooner we get on with it the better because we really
0:31:42 > 0:31:47have to focus on the future.On this big issue of what happens to
0:31:47 > 0:31:53agriculture after Brexit, the row is being presented as a debate between
0:31:53 > 0:31:57the Scottish Government and the British government about whether
0:31:57 > 0:32:02powers of the common agricultural policy immediately become devolved
0:32:02 > 0:32:06powers to Scotland or returned to the UK and the UK then devolves them
0:32:06 > 0:32:12after that. Is that the way that farmers see it all is it more
0:32:12 > 0:32:17complicated?I see it is more complicated if we delve into where
0:32:17 > 0:32:21we are now under the common agricultural policy with the UK
0:32:21 > 0:32:26being the key member state the UK is then divided again into the four
0:32:26 > 0:32:30devolved administrations. Because of devolution we have the ability to
0:32:30 > 0:32:34set our own agricultural and rural policies and implement the common
0:32:34 > 0:32:39agricultural policy in a way that best suits Scotland's needs. That is
0:32:39 > 0:32:44something we will argue for very strongly going forward. What would
0:32:44 > 0:32:55be unacceptable to NFU Scotland would be if we ended up with a Defra
0:32:55 > 0:33:00- centric approach, a one size fits all approach. Because what might
0:33:00 > 0:33:04suit various parts of England with its huge proportion of arable land
0:33:04 > 0:33:09as opposed to grazing and livestock production is the reverse of what is
0:33:09 > 0:33:11needed in Scotland. We've got significant areas of rough grazing
0:33:11 > 0:33:19at best. Its hill cattle and hill sheep which dominate a lot of our
0:33:19 > 0:33:22agricultural profile. Therefore we need the tools and the tool box, if
0:33:22 > 0:33:29you like, to fit a new agricultural policy to the needs of Scotland's
0:33:29 > 0:33:35farmers and crofters. That means having a significant degree of power
0:33:35 > 0:33:38autonomy or even subsidiarity few want to use that word in Edinburgh
0:33:38 > 0:33:43to deliver what is right for Scotland.Subsidiarity, everyone's
0:33:43 > 0:33:48favourite word! Would you, on the other side of that, except the need
0:33:48 > 0:33:52for what they call a UK single market in agriculture. In other
0:33:52 > 0:33:55words that some control over things like standards and the rest of it
0:33:55 > 0:34:00has to be kept at a UK level if you are going to have the equivalent of
0:34:00 > 0:34:06Europe in Britain.I would agree. I think it's important that on certain
0:34:06 > 0:34:10standards and regulatory matters that govern things like animal
0:34:10 > 0:34:14health and welfare matters and pesticide use, how we manage our
0:34:14 > 0:34:18fantastic environment, and so long, it has to take place on almost a
0:34:18 > 0:34:22commonly agreed, and I mean a commonly agreed by the devolved, not
0:34:22 > 0:34:26just imposed by Defra, bases across the UK so that everyone is operating
0:34:26 > 0:34:30to that same level playing field in that respect. But when it comes to
0:34:30 > 0:34:36do delivery of schemes and measures that enable farmers to be more
0:34:36 > 0:34:40competitive and deliver more in terms of environmental gains and be
0:34:40 > 0:34:43viable in the longer term and contribute to our growing food and
0:34:43 > 0:34:48drink sector in Scotland, then we need the ability to then deliver
0:34:48 > 0:34:52those aspects in Scotland. So there is it degree in commonality that is
0:34:52 > 0:35:02required but equally I think the key is enabling Scotland to deliver an
0:35:02 > 0:35:09agricultural policy that works first Scotland's feed sector.Briefly,
0:35:09 > 0:35:13Jonnie, because we don't have time to go into a lot of detail, how do
0:35:13 > 0:35:17farmers see Brexit? The devolution of power that you've talked about,
0:35:17 > 0:35:22do you see that as a matter of power is coming from Brussels to London or
0:35:22 > 0:35:27to Edinburgh, or do you see it more as a chance to tear up the whole
0:35:27 > 0:35:31system as it is at the moment and design something fundamentally
0:35:31 > 0:35:44different?I do not think we are going to rip it lobs entirely...But
0:35:44 > 0:35:50just set aside things and rethink the way things are done.It's a
0:35:50 > 0:35:56great opportunity to do that, we are describing this is all about change,
0:35:56 > 0:36:00change is inevitable that we wanted to be managed change rather than
0:36:00 > 0:36:06chaotic. We see real opportunity in creating an agricultural policy and
0:36:06 > 0:36:10auroral development policy that is much more fitting Scotland's needs.
0:36:10 > 0:36:16To end up with more profitable, more market focused agriculture which
0:36:16 > 0:36:21also delivers the animal welfare standards upon which the prominence
0:36:21 > 0:36:25of our food and drink is built. We are not going to throw that out of
0:36:25 > 0:36:29the window but we do want a system that allows those who can and want
0:36:29 > 0:36:34to farm in the most effective manner and be competitive to do so, while
0:36:34 > 0:36:45at the same time safeguarding our environment.Jonnie Hall, thank you.
0:36:45 > 0:36:49Rebecca, this is quite competitive. It has been reduced to a fight about
0:36:49 > 0:36:56who gets what but it is not just that.No. You raise the issue of the
0:36:56 > 0:36:59UK framework. I think even the Scottish Government accepts that in
0:36:59 > 0:37:03the midst of this tussle with the UK Government over the UK withdrawal
0:37:03 > 0:37:09bill, which they cannot sign up to, they can't recommend that the
0:37:09 > 0:37:13Holyrood parliament endorsed it just yet because they feel, they call it
0:37:13 > 0:37:17a power grab. In the UK Government 's position, which it hasn't
0:37:17 > 0:37:23articulated very well in my view, is that they need to set certain
0:37:23 > 0:37:37frameworks before the powers that are due to be devolved to Cardiff
0:37:37 > 0:37:44and elsewhere. I think that the key point is that the Scottish
0:37:44 > 0:37:50Government that is have to be this framework. You are talking about
0:37:50 > 0:37:53food standards, food labelling for example, it also applies in areas of
0:37:53 > 0:37:59agriculture as well. At the moment there is no resolution to that
0:37:59 > 0:38:06although this talk going on. Everyone is making fun of David
0:38:06 > 0:38:09Davis for suggesting that the Brexit vote could be after the deal is
0:38:09 > 0:38:16permitted. Where he has a point is that people are thinking of this
0:38:16 > 0:38:21negotiation as everyone coming out, there's a photo, and we will here,
0:38:21 > 0:38:24there's a deal between the European Union. That isn't the way it works.
0:38:24 > 0:38:30What will happen is that there will be a last minute fight going on with
0:38:30 > 0:38:34various countries will put in last-minute demands and see them
0:38:34 > 0:38:38veto the thing. The thing will go on, whatever the deadline day is, it
0:38:38 > 0:38:41will go on till five o'clock in the morning, some bleary eyed official
0:38:41 > 0:38:47will emerge and read out a short piece of paper and even then they
0:38:47 > 0:38:53might not have agreed on the details.Yeah. That's probably fair
0:38:53 > 0:38:57comment. On the other hand, the government has committed to what
0:38:57 > 0:39:05they call a meaningful vote on the final deal.Are you clear what that
0:39:05 > 0:39:11vote is supposed to be?No more than anyone else. But they are trying to
0:39:11 > 0:39:16bind together the trade deal and the exit steals, in my understanding.
0:39:16 > 0:39:20Labour seem to be suggesting, if we reject the deal we stay in the EU.
0:39:20 > 0:39:26The Lib Dems seem to be saying, we accept the deal or we have another
0:39:26 > 0:39:31referendum. I'm not sure what the government says.Its view was, take
0:39:31 > 0:39:37it or leave it. So you just drop out.So if you vote against the deal
0:39:37 > 0:39:43in parliament we will just leave the EU, full stop.If that is what is on
0:39:43 > 0:39:47the table what's David Davis is suggesting isn't so different.
0:39:47 > 0:39:54Because the question is, how do you have a meaningful vote on this.
0:39:54 > 0:39:58Leaving aside issues of timing, can you force the government back to the
0:39:58 > 0:40:04negotiating table if the EU 27 do not want to negotiate? There are
0:40:04 > 0:40:08lots of questions about having a meaningful vote. There's probably a
0:40:08 > 0:40:13majority in the UK Parliament to say we do need some sort of hoped that
0:40:13 > 0:40:20matters.OK. We'll be back with you later, Rebecca. MSP 's have voted
0:40:20 > 0:40:29overwhelmingly to support a ban on fracking in Scotland.
0:40:29 > 0:40:30That's unconventional drilling for oil and
0:40:30 > 0:40:31gas from shale rock.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34The ban was supported yesterday on the basis it would be written
0:40:34 > 0:40:36into national planning guidelines, as called for by Labour
0:40:36 > 0:40:37and the Greens.
0:40:37 > 0:40:40A Liberal Democrats amendment, stressing the focus of the future
0:40:40 > 0:40:41should be on renewable energy, was also carried.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44But a Conservative amendment, which disagreed with the fracking
0:40:44 > 0:40:46ban, claiming it was "ill-thought out" and disregarded scientific
0:40:46 > 0:40:47evidence, was voted down.
0:40:47 > 0:40:49On the third October I sat at the conclusion of the Scottish
0:40:49 > 0:40:51Government 's investigation into unconventional oil and gas. I made
0:40:51 > 0:40:54it clear that following our assessment of the evidence the
0:40:54 > 0:40:57Scottish Government does not support the development of unconventional
0:40:57 > 0:41:03oil and gas in Scotland and a ban is in place pending the outcome of the
0:41:03 > 0:41:07assessment. I reaffirm that position honouring the commitment I made on
0:41:07 > 0:41:13eight and November lasted, giving Parliament an opportunity to endorse
0:41:13 > 0:41:15our carefully considered position on unconventional oil and gas. In
0:41:15 > 0:41:19reviewing research findings I have particular concerns over the
0:41:19 > 0:41:25insufficiency of evidence on health impacts, highlighted by health
0:41:25 > 0:41:29protection Scotland. Of production Scotland also noted that an
0:41:29 > 0:41:31unconventional approach is unwarranted on the base of the
0:41:31 > 0:41:35evidence. The position we have taken on this is a clear deployment of the
0:41:35 > 0:41:40precautionary principle. The committee on climate change out that
0:41:40 > 0:41:42the emissions generated by unconventional oil and gas
0:41:42 > 0:41:46extraction in Scotland would mean meeting our existing climate change
0:41:46 > 0:41:50targets more challenging. I've noted calls made by some groups to ban
0:41:50 > 0:41:57calls for fracking. They view is predicated on the opinion that... I
0:41:57 > 0:42:06am confident that our approach is sufficiently robust to control this,
0:42:06 > 0:42:11I'll try to bring Mr Wakeman and later. I wrote to the Secretary of
0:42:11 > 0:42:13State for business, energy and industrial strategy setting up a
0:42:13 > 0:42:16position on the future of unconventional oil and gas in
0:42:16 > 0:42:19Scotland seeking his assurance that licensing powers will be transferred
0:42:19 > 0:42:22to this Parliament as as soon as possible and that no such power grab
0:42:22 > 0:42:26by the UK Government will take place. When those powers are fully
0:42:26 > 0:42:29devolved we're discharge them in line with our position on
0:42:29 > 0:42:33unconventional oil and gas. After this debate will issue a written
0:42:33 > 0:42:36policy statement on our position on unconventional oil and gas, this
0:42:36 > 0:42:42will support our position on an environmental assessment which will,
0:42:42 > 0:42:46jointly and be continued in 2018. We'll then formally set out our
0:42:46 > 0:42:55position.Professor Paul Younger, at Glasgow University, somebody held up
0:42:55 > 0:43:01by the SNP in the past as a member of expert scientific panel, has
0:43:01 > 0:43:07slammed the government 's position, saying the justification for a
0:43:07 > 0:43:13moratorium was "All made up" and "Completely fake". He said he felt
0:43:13 > 0:43:16violated as a professional following the announcement of a moratorium.
0:43:16 > 0:43:20Even the former Greenpeace leader Stephen Tindale has said the Green
0:43:20 > 0:43:24movement needs an urgent rethink other energy sources and it's time
0:43:24 > 0:43:31for green campaigners to stop saying frack off and start saying frack on.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34Sodhi we have a Scottish Government that commissions its own report from
0:43:34 > 0:43:39experts that it then ignores and deals with contempt. We've a body of
0:43:39 > 0:43:44scientific opinion, very clear that fracking should proceed and can be
0:43:44 > 0:43:49done safely, and that is also ignored. What we have is an SNP
0:43:49 > 0:43:52government dancing to the tune of the Green party rather than
0:43:52 > 0:43:57listening to the experts and to the science.As this Parliament
0:43:57 > 0:44:01scrutinises the climate change Bill, climate change plan and energy
0:44:01 > 0:44:05strategy it is welcome to know that fracking is firmly out of the
0:44:05 > 0:44:10question. The long term damage outweighs any short-term value that
0:44:10 > 0:44:13might be gained, and value significantly overinflated by the
0:44:13 > 0:44:21industry. My concern was that the Scottish Government 's position was
0:44:21 > 0:44:23not robust enough, given it could be reversed by a feature minister or
0:44:23 > 0:44:25government with ease. Labour's amendment today offers a layer of
0:44:25 > 0:44:27protection and the level of parliamentary scrutiny and
0:44:27 > 0:44:32comfortable with. Not only would be public consultation that the next
0:44:32 > 0:44:37review of the National planning Flame D'Hooghe frame and it would be
0:44:37 > 0:44:42subdued to vote. Fundamental as it prevent ministerial direction from
0:44:42 > 0:44:47and indefinite moratorium being changed on a whim.The UK climate
0:44:47 > 0:44:51change committee judged that widespread fracking would not be
0:44:51 > 0:44:55compatible with our climate targets, it is for that reason that we
0:44:55 > 0:44:58underline the need for the blank section on fracking in the energy
0:44:58 > 0:45:02strategy to be billed with a fracking ban -- filled with abandon.
0:45:02 > 0:45:06These forms of extreme energy are a distraction from the vision and
0:45:06 > 0:45:11investment needed to transform our energy system to one that is
0:45:11 > 0:45:16infinitely renewable, democratised and smart.The Scottish Lib Dems
0:45:16 > 0:45:26welcome this debate and the thrust of the approach taken by the
0:45:26 > 0:45:28government in relation to unconventional oil and gas. On
0:45:28 > 0:45:30environmental grounds we know that shale gas is a high carbon energy
0:45:30 > 0:45:35source and has large quantities of carbon dioxide and methane. Our
0:45:35 > 0:45:37pledge to limit the temperature increases to below 2% leads us to
0:45:37 > 0:45:44conclude that opening up a new carbon front is unwise, unwanted and
0:45:44 > 0:45:47unnecessary.Let's go live to the Garden Lobby of the Scottish
0:45:47 > 0:45:51Parliament.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53Our line-up of MSPs today includes Stuart McMillan from the SNP,
0:45:53 > 0:45:54Liam Kerr, from the Conservatives.
0:45:54 > 0:45:56James Kelly, from Labour.
0:45:56 > 0:46:03And Alex Hamilton from the Liberal Democrats. James Kelly, what do you
0:46:03 > 0:46:08say to people in the trade unions, some of whom are saying, hang on,
0:46:08 > 0:46:12this could have been an entire industry that would have provided
0:46:12 > 0:46:17jobs for members of trade unions in Scotland. Why on earth is the Labour
0:46:17 > 0:46:22Party not only going along with the SNP but campaigning for tighter ban
0:46:22 > 0:46:27on the basis of no evidence whatsoever?I think if you look very
0:46:27 > 0:46:32closely at what people have been telling us in local areas and
0:46:32 > 0:46:35communities, people are very concerned about the environmental
0:46:35 > 0:46:40aspects and also the health aspects. That is what Labour responded to.
0:46:40 > 0:46:45Claudia Beamish threw an excellent campaign on this, and I am glad that
0:46:45 > 0:46:51the government have responded with this ban, we need to be close to
0:46:51 > 0:46:54what people are telling us in communities and that is what Labour
0:46:54 > 0:46:58responded to.Your response to a trade unionist saying that you've
0:46:58 > 0:47:03just prevented an industry, you say to them, you are saying this is a
0:47:03 > 0:47:06trade unionist but once you go home you'll realise that on environmental
0:47:06 > 0:47:12grounds we were right?
0:47:12 > 0:47:17The majority of responses made the very strong point that they were
0:47:17 > 0:47:21having real health concerns and environmental and to go ahead with
0:47:21 > 0:47:25fracking would have been to those communities and that was a step we
0:47:25 > 0:47:30were not prepared to take.That raises another issue, and it is
0:47:30 > 0:47:35perfectly reasonable for the Scottish Government to say,
0:47:35 > 0:47:39politically, we do not want to do this, but the claim, as James Kellie
0:47:39 > 0:47:45has just done, that this is on the basis of evidence, it is effectively
0:47:45 > 0:47:49like saying, we have found that fish stocks are being depleted, but we
0:47:49 > 0:47:54did a social media poll which said that herring stocks were great so we
0:47:54 > 0:47:59are going to fish them anyway. That is the logic of this.The evidence
0:47:59 > 0:48:02we know about climate change and the impact of continual reliance on
0:48:02 > 0:48:09fossil fuels is sufficient enough to warrant this ban.The evidence is
0:48:09 > 0:48:12the Scottish Government commissioned a scientific study of fracking which
0:48:12 > 0:48:17said it was reasonable and safe to go ahead with it.It may say it is
0:48:17 > 0:48:20reasonable and save and their opportunities and costs with every
0:48:20 > 0:48:25governmental decision, but this is a new seam of reliance of carbon fuel
0:48:25 > 0:48:32technologies. At a time when the cost of this will be measured by our
0:48:32 > 0:48:34children and children's children, Liberal Democrats think this is too
0:48:34 > 0:48:40high a price to pay for short-term fixes to our energy problems.Even
0:48:40 > 0:48:44if perhaps people who do not want fracking, if the Scottish Government
0:48:44 > 0:48:49had just said, people who support the SNP and Labour and Liberal
0:48:49 > 0:48:54Democrats do not like fracking so we will not have it, fair enough. But
0:48:54 > 0:48:59they are claiming this is some evidence-based procedure where they
0:48:59 > 0:49:02have ignored their own scientific advice, and that is what concerns
0:49:02 > 0:49:05people. It is the idea of evidence-based policy which has gone
0:49:05 > 0:49:13out of the window?No, the evidence of it is safe to do so.So they are
0:49:13 > 0:49:17doing the opposite of the evidence. That evidence you describe may say
0:49:17 > 0:49:21that we could do fracking, it does not say we should do it, that is a
0:49:21 > 0:49:26political decision and it was taken yesterday by this Parliament and it
0:49:26 > 0:49:29is the right view.You have said what I said, just in different
0:49:29 > 0:49:35words. You can have as much evidence as you like, if it is the incorrect
0:49:35 > 0:49:40evidence, it doesn't matter?That is not true. The Minister yesterday in
0:49:40 > 0:49:45the chamber spoke very clearly about the importance of this decision and
0:49:45 > 0:49:50why this decision was taken. And there is a huge body of public
0:49:50 > 0:49:57support for fracking to not take place in Scotland.Maybe you are
0:49:57 > 0:50:00right, but the scientific advice you got was the opposite. And when the
0:50:00 > 0:50:06Minister says, most of our responses were against fracking, that is like
0:50:06 > 0:50:09replacing scientific evidence with an opinion poll. I suppose
0:50:09 > 0:50:13politically, it is justifiable to do it, but at least be honest about it
0:50:13 > 0:50:16and say, we are going to ignore the scientific advice because our own
0:50:16 > 0:50:22political -based is not wanted.I disagree in terms of the opinion
0:50:22 > 0:50:29poll. Research was undertaken and if a Scottish Government did not
0:50:29 > 0:50:33consult and asked the population as to what they thought, they would be
0:50:33 > 0:50:36criticised for any decision they took. Yesterday, a decision was
0:50:36 > 0:50:40taken by this Parliament minus the Conservatives, about fracking not to
0:50:40 > 0:50:45go ahead in Scotland and that is something I personally welcome. And
0:50:45 > 0:50:51so do the majority of my constituents.Liam Kerr, the
0:50:51 > 0:50:56scientific evidence may have been ignored, but will it agree,
0:50:56 > 0:50:59ultimately, that is fine, isn't it? Different countries do not want
0:50:59 > 0:51:04different things, for different reasons. There may well be evidence
0:51:04 > 0:51:09in France that fracking could help the French economy but the French
0:51:09 > 0:51:12have decided they do not want that and that is fair enough.I don't
0:51:12 > 0:51:19think it is, two issues. Economically, in the context of the
0:51:19 > 0:51:22current government's wilful mismanagement of the Scottish
0:51:22 > 0:51:25economy, this is an energy source that could bring Scotland back up to
0:51:25 > 0:51:30where it should be. Gigli in the context of the North East region. We
0:51:30 > 0:51:34are crying out, we have the expertise, we can deliver this and
0:51:34 > 0:51:38do it safely, that is what the Government's evidence said. And
0:51:38 > 0:51:42secondly, the level of hypocrisy to say, we're not going to do this in
0:51:42 > 0:51:47our backyard, but it is all right to import it from the US and do it from
0:51:47 > 0:51:50their backyard because we don't want it here. And to talk about the
0:51:50 > 0:51:56environmental argument and beep heavily comfortable to bring in gas
0:51:56 > 0:52:03to Scotland is frankly a bewildering.You have a fire red
0:52:03 > 0:52:07engine tie on, what you make of this suggestion, of these documents that
0:52:07 > 0:52:13suggest that the numbers will be cut.The documents are very
0:52:13 > 0:52:17concerning. What we need now, what the public needs more than anything,
0:52:17 > 0:52:22is clarity. What we have seen is a service in trouble. We have seen
0:52:22 > 0:52:26very brave and very courageous firefighters and the backroom staff
0:52:26 > 0:52:31who make this happen, doing the absolute level best to maintain an
0:52:31 > 0:52:35appropriate level of service. They simply have not been given the
0:52:35 > 0:52:38support of the Scottish Government. That is the evidence. The Scottish
0:52:38 > 0:52:41governance is a perfectly reasonable that they have financed the Fire
0:52:41 > 0:52:46Service, but it is up to the people to decide how to run it.The
0:52:46 > 0:52:50Scottish Government is not financing this is the way they said they would
0:52:50 > 0:52:55and what we have seen in the report today is that the budget pressures
0:52:55 > 0:52:59brought to bear on the service are having an impact. We have seen
0:52:59 > 0:53:02response time is rising, the ability of the service to deliver what it is
0:53:02 > 0:53:06supposed to deliver is being challenged, and the report is quite
0:53:06 > 0:53:11clear that the budget issues are causing an awful lot of these
0:53:11 > 0:53:16problems.I would say the budget issues come from Tory government
0:53:16 > 0:53:19austerity, but we will let James Kellie discuss that. What you make
0:53:19 > 0:53:26of it?People will be really concerned that the secret SNP plan
0:53:26 > 0:53:32to close fire stations and cut firefighter numbers...They say it
0:53:32 > 0:53:37is not an SNP plan, it is the Fire Service, and the Fire Service has
0:53:37 > 0:53:42managerial autonomy.When the Minister was asked about it in
0:53:42 > 0:53:45Parliament today, she did not face up to the fact that she has
0:53:45 > 0:53:50responsibility for that service, and she did not deny that she had
0:53:50 > 0:53:54knowledge of the paper. So I think it is quite correct to say it is a
0:53:54 > 0:54:00secret SNP plan, and they heard about it in Parliament rather than
0:54:00 > 0:54:05on the BBC News this morning -- we should hear about it in Parliament.
0:54:05 > 0:54:08There are real concerns and people look at local stations and
0:54:08 > 0:54:13firefighters as important as back to safeguard their community and they
0:54:13 > 0:54:16will be concerned about the potential rundown of the service.
0:54:16 > 0:54:25What is your view on this, there you are!The Scottish Fire Service does
0:54:25 > 0:54:28have the autonomy to manage the service and that is what they have
0:54:28 > 0:54:33done successfully since it came into being after the merger in 2013 and
0:54:33 > 0:54:36they have been very successful. While that has been the case, there
0:54:36 > 0:54:43has been no fire stations lost, closed in Scotland, and this year
0:54:43 > 0:54:46alone, an extra £21.7 million was put into the service from the
0:54:46 > 0:54:53Scottish Government. Finally, going back to the issue of the finance. If
0:54:53 > 0:54:57the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service could get back the £50 million of
0:54:57 > 0:55:04VAT that Westminster grabbed from them, that the Tories have grabbed
0:55:04 > 0:55:10off it, that would help in terms of any financial pressures.Let's swing
0:55:10 > 0:55:16right round because I want to finish this by getting each of you to tell
0:55:16 > 0:55:22us the top vitally important thing that you thought the conveners of
0:55:22 > 0:55:25the committee managed to get out of Nicola Sturgeon today? In one
0:55:25 > 0:55:32sentence.What was clear from the club's answers is that she, like the
0:55:32 > 0:55:36Liberal Democrats, wanted to see the publication of the secret government
0:55:36 > 0:55:40advice on Brexit and the full impact. When that is revealed and it
0:55:40 > 0:55:43is clear what the Conservative government of Westminster have,
0:55:43 > 0:55:46those Christ to stop Brexit and to do what the Liberal Democrats want,
0:55:46 > 0:55:54which is to have a second referendum deal on the final terms...With
0:55:54 > 0:55:57fewer subordinate clauses! I thought Nicola Sturgeon looked really
0:55:57 > 0:56:03uncomfortable being questioned by Neil Findlay about the health
0:56:03 > 0:56:07service targets. And that shows the help service is in crisis and the
0:56:07 > 0:56:12Government are under pressure on this and don't have the answers.In
0:56:12 > 0:56:16amongst a platter of issues that the Government is having to address, I
0:56:16 > 0:56:18actually think it is the health service, I think Miles Ricks has
0:56:18 > 0:56:25done a great job...I asked you what you learned from Nicola Sturgeon and
0:56:25 > 0:56:28not how brilliant Conservative members of the Scottish Parliament.
0:56:28 > 0:56:32We learnt that Nicola Sturgeon needs to look at what we are doing in
0:56:32 > 0:56:36terms of GPs and the recruitment and funding crisis we have in the health
0:56:36 > 0:56:39service in Scotland.What did you learn? Once again, the First
0:56:39 > 0:56:45Minister proved she is a First Minister of extreme class and
0:56:45 > 0:56:50standing and it has taken Scotland forward.What does extreme class and
0:56:50 > 0:56:56standing mean?Did she answered the questions? You consider the
0:56:56 > 0:56:58leadership of other parties in Scotland compared to the First
0:56:58 > 0:57:04Minister and she stands out head and shoulders above any other leader
0:57:04 > 0:57:08that we have in the Scottish Parliament. Also, the UK, for that
0:57:08 > 0:57:14matter.Such a round of hilarity, we need to swing back to get the shot
0:57:14 > 0:57:20the viewers want to see! They are all jealous!
0:57:20 > 0:57:22Let's get some final thoughts from Rebecca.
0:57:22 > 0:57:32That was positively Chinese Communist Party!Yes, it was a bit.
0:57:32 > 0:57:38Who knows? Maybe he was struggling to find anything interesting in this
0:57:38 > 0:57:49morning's offerings.Fracking. I guess the issue that might concern
0:57:49 > 0:57:55some people is, I suppose it is fair enough to say, the scientific is
0:57:55 > 0:57:59there, we are going to do it, but at least say you are going to do it.
0:57:59 > 0:58:04Yes, there is a case for that. You had the UK task force looking at
0:58:04 > 0:58:07fracking last year and it concluded that under strict regulations, it
0:58:07 > 0:58:14could be done safely. What you have to remember that it is not just
0:58:14 > 0:58:17about public health, it is also about this climate change issue. And
0:58:17 > 0:58:20I think it would be politically difficult for the Scottish
0:58:20 > 0:58:26Government to start setting up the infrastructure required for shale
0:58:26 > 0:58:31gas extraction when they are increasingly greenhouse gas
0:58:31 > 0:58:38emissions to 19% by 2018.Are we getting anywhere on Brexit other
0:58:38 > 0:58:41than more confused?It certainly did not feel like it today. If you had
0:58:41 > 0:58:46asked me nuts before David Davis opened his mouth, possibly yes. Not
0:58:46 > 0:58:51so sure now -- if you had asked me that.Just when you think you
0:58:51 > 0:58:56understanding it!It gets more confusing. Thank you very much.
0:58:56 > 0:58:58That's all we've got time for today.
0:58:58 > 0:59:00You can join my colleague Brian Taylor tomorrow at 12:00
0:59:00 > 0:59:01for First Minister's Questions.
0:59:01 > 0:59:03And I'll be back this weekend with Sunday Politics Scotland.
0:59:03 > 0:59:04Until then, bye-bye.