:00:21. > :00:23.Welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: Business and
:00:24. > :00:27.independence - one leading firm tells a Holyrood committee Scotland
:00:28. > :00:30.will be "tied up like a kipper" if there's a currency union.
:00:31. > :00:35.Others welcome the prospect of Scotland going it alone.
:00:36. > :00:38.Jobs and lives under threat - an angry reaction to the controversial
:00:39. > :00:42.closure of police and fire control rooms. That's our debate live in the
:00:43. > :00:45.Scottish Parliament. And here at Westminster, the Deputy
:00:46. > :00:48.Prime Minister wades into the independence debate, saying the
:00:49. > :00:51.First Minister can't have his ''cake and eat it.'' An independent
:00:52. > :00:55.Scotland could be "tied up tighter than a kipper" if there was a
:00:56. > :01:01.currency union with the rest of the UK according to the boss of the
:01:02. > :01:04.Scottish firm, Aggreko. But the warning from Rupert Soames
:01:05. > :01:08.was sharply contested by other bosses who were giving evidence to
:01:09. > :01:16.MSPs on the economy committee at Holyrood. Our Political Editor,
:01:17. > :01:24.Brian Taylor, was watching. This is a brick, a company based in
:01:25. > :01:37.Barton. It is a global business that attached structure -- attack --
:01:38. > :01:43.attracted global attention. It is far from me to say that it would be
:01:44. > :01:48.sensible for Scotland to enter into a currency union with the rest of
:01:49. > :02:23.the UK without being tied up like a.
:02:24. > :02:30.It still gives plenty of freedom to have the flexibility to design and
:02:31. > :02:36.fiscal policies that would stimulate business growth and attract business
:02:37. > :02:53.into Scotland. For me it is a nonissue. I meet these guys day to
:02:54. > :02:59.day in the pub and the club for lunch and I do not see, I do not
:03:00. > :03:05.see, from my heart I do not see, a great deal of concern about it. So,
:03:06. > :03:09.business is divided about the issue of independence and so are MSPs.
:03:10. > :03:15.Welcome to Scotland in referendum year. Brian Taylor is at Hollywood
:03:16. > :03:22.for us now. Thank you for joining me. Sharply divided but also very
:03:23. > :03:25.predictable in some ways. A grandson of Winston Churchill, committed
:03:26. > :03:29.unionist, and a well-known supporter of independence. It was predictable
:03:30. > :03:35.what we were going to hear today, wasn't it? In a sense, they were
:03:36. > :03:40.called but wasteful. They were called in as those sceptical about
:03:41. > :03:46.independence and those are supportive of the idea. Jim McCall
:03:47. > :03:52.said he started talking about powers and then there was a third tranche
:03:53. > :03:59.of evidence about those who were undecided. That focused on the
:04:00. > :04:07.powers within devolution. It is a relevant topic depending on the
:04:08. > :04:12.referendum, possibly becoming even more relevant. Right now, they are
:04:13. > :04:14.debating the issue of yes or no, so they have lined them up, if you
:04:15. > :04:24.like, and I they have lined them up, if you
:04:25. > :04:30.was overblown. I think it was interesting. It was interesting and
:04:31. > :04:33.Jim McCall was making the ultimate for more powers. Was he essentially
:04:34. > :04:37.saying, look what you could do with these powers and then move on? His
:04:38. > :04:44.evidence was intriguing because he was putting it, as he said, from an
:04:45. > :04:47.important business perspective and he said he could not understand why
:04:48. > :04:54.anyone would oppose Scotland taking control of fiscal powers. He
:04:55. > :04:58.believed that was very important and it was a business decision, running
:04:59. > :05:04.the whole balance sheet rather than just the cost account. I think both
:05:05. > :05:09.sides made their arguments very powerfully from their perspective
:05:10. > :05:13.and the thing as well was it was intriguing to witness on the
:05:14. > :05:20.committee each side, depending where they sat, trying to bring out the
:05:21. > :05:24.view. They were saying, give independence a gift -- a good
:05:25. > :05:29.kicking, you know you want to, in the pro camp and then those
:05:30. > :05:33.favouring independence back the perspective given by the Scottish
:05:34. > :05:38.government. They were following the silos of airing. As you mention,
:05:39. > :05:47.MSPs listening to that evidence. Will they be doing a report at the
:05:48. > :05:51.end of this? No, I think not. They are honourably divided between the
:05:52. > :05:56.two perspectives. They would be to reports full top one report would
:05:57. > :06:00.say, did you not hear what Rupert Soames was saying on the subject of
:06:01. > :06:04.currency? And the other would say, Jim McCall on the subject of
:06:05. > :06:08.Scottish investment and growth. It would be an exercise of the utility
:06:09. > :06:12.to try to draw a single report on that. But it is advantageous to have
:06:13. > :06:20.both sides of evidence out there. To have the evidence and the mid
:06:21. > :06:30.position as well. The contribution to wider debate is very valuable.
:06:31. > :06:34.Thank you very much. I'm joined in the studio for the duration of the
:06:35. > :06:37.programme by Mike Wade from The Times. First of all, Brian was
:06:38. > :06:40.saying it is interesting to hear what the business leaders were
:06:41. > :06:45.saying, but it is very predictable. We do hear the same kind of things
:06:46. > :06:50.from the different sides. What was interesting to me is I was at a
:06:51. > :06:56.different venue in Edinburgh, which was the Church of Scotland, and
:06:57. > :07:01.there rose and was making an argument about equality and getting
:07:02. > :07:05.hold of tax and in other words legislating for tax and social
:07:06. > :07:11.inclusion. I think she has a different view of what taxation
:07:12. > :07:15.should do to Jim McCall. It is a bit like reading the White Paper, that
:07:16. > :07:20.you have a chapter for business that says, yes, we will have low
:07:21. > :07:30.corporation tax, and a chapter for inclusion which says, we will have a
:07:31. > :07:34.higher tax for social inclusion. On the one side, you have people like
:07:35. > :07:39.Rupert Soames highlighting what he would see as uncertainty surrounding
:07:40. > :07:43.independence and then you have Jim McCall saying, let's try these
:07:44. > :07:50.powers because then we can get independence. You will see what
:07:51. > :07:54.these powers can do for you. Yes, and that is obviously Jim McCall's
:07:55. > :07:58.position and we are not surprised by that. Some of the things that we
:07:59. > :08:01.have heard in recent days, with TSB last week and with the statement
:08:02. > :08:06.from standard life expected this week, I will be interesting
:08:07. > :08:12.developments in this argument. There are noises about transaction costs
:08:13. > :08:19.and what have you that are beginning to play. That is not good news for
:08:20. > :08:22.the yes camp, I do not think. At the end of the day, as Brian was
:08:23. > :08:28.pointing out, there will be no report. The MSPs are divided on
:08:29. > :08:34.committee. It is a chance for arguments to be out, but we could be
:08:35. > :08:39.searching for arguments which need to be decided on and decisions have
:08:40. > :08:43.to be made. I did not find the points of view very illuminating. It
:08:44. > :08:47.did not tell me anything new. That is the difficulty for many people.
:08:48. > :08:51.Business leaders are key in the independence debate. We had from the
:08:52. > :08:54.Chief Executive of GP against independence. We have heard from
:08:55. > :09:00.other business leaders who operate independence. Do you think ordinary
:09:01. > :09:05.voters listen to business people when it comes to these decisions? I
:09:06. > :09:09.think there was some evidence in the Qu?bec referendum that these
:09:10. > :09:16.highfalutin types were ignored by normal baiters. There is some very
:09:17. > :09:26.interesting strata of the normal voters at the moment. Both sides are
:09:27. > :09:30.trying to maximise on one side doubt and on one side positivism. It is
:09:31. > :09:34.very important to wins this argument now. There is another argument
:09:35. > :09:38.closer to people 's hearts that is also being fought. Thank you very
:09:39. > :09:42.much for that. Let's pick up on today's debate in
:09:43. > :09:46.the chamber. Labour have chosen the topic for the day and that's
:09:47. > :09:49.justice. There's been widespread concern about the closure of local
:09:50. > :09:52.police and fire control rooms following the setting up of a single
:09:53. > :09:56.police force and single fire service. One of the key aims of the
:09:57. > :09:59.debate is to allow MSPs to highlight possible concerns in their area. The
:10:00. > :10:03.justification is, of course, to save money and to provide a modernised
:10:04. > :10:09.and more responsive service. Let's hear the debate. Labour's Justice
:10:10. > :10:17.spokesman is on hear the debate. Labour's Justice
:10:18. > :10:22.chamber. I am sure we will come to that during the debate. Let me begin
:10:23. > :10:26.by acknowledging at the start the sterling work performed by the staff
:10:27. > :10:30.of police Scotland, the Scottish Fire rescue service and all the
:10:31. > :10:37.emergency services on the of Scotland's communities. But, the
:10:38. > :10:42.Cabinet Secretary for Justice has changed the very essence of policing
:10:43. > :10:51.in Scotland. He has abandoned his responsible as he is for oversight
:10:52. > :10:55.of the police work and let an authority implement the change on
:10:56. > :11:05.local policing to amateur centric approach. -- to amateur centric
:11:06. > :11:07.approach. It but appears to have become an archaic rule. The
:11:08. > :11:12.accountability in the decision-making process of justice
:11:13. > :11:19.systems have been all but eroded, making the notion of knowing consent
:11:20. > :11:24.redundant. The public observation exercises undertaken in relation to
:11:25. > :11:28.public counter closes, traffic wardens and the police and fire
:11:29. > :11:31.service control room rationalisations were, in
:11:32. > :11:38.themselves, farcical exercises. Hurried, confused and lacking in any
:11:39. > :11:44.real opportunity in any instance of meaningful consideration. The
:11:45. > :11:49.importance of local views and local priorities were reduced to an
:11:50. > :11:57.afterthought as national teams of ports, football and firearms
:11:58. > :12:01.policing as well as mounted sections and a support were deemed of being
:12:02. > :12:04.of great importance. Key performance indicators have come the language of
:12:05. > :12:16.Mr MacAskill's new force. indicators have come the language of
:12:17. > :12:20.realities of crime in communities and reports from police officers
:12:21. > :12:26.themselves of the fiddling of crime reports all contribute to a service
:12:27. > :12:30.focused on headlines, good news stories and information management
:12:31. > :12:34.instead of public detection and victim centred services. These
:12:35. > :12:37.widespread changes, together with the worsening conditions for our
:12:38. > :12:43.police officers, have been widely reported to have caused new debt is
:12:44. > :12:49.of low morale amongst our front line officers and staff. A recent poll
:12:50. > :12:58.showed that only one in ten staff feels valued, with backroom cuts
:12:59. > :13:01.causing more problems for staff with over 3000 more hours of extra duties
:13:02. > :13:05.for current officers, reducing the time they have to patrol our
:13:06. > :13:10.streets. The Unison survey recently also found two thirds of staff said
:13:11. > :13:16.their workload had increased with the advent of post-Scotland. Morale
:13:17. > :13:21.amongst support staff appears to be even lower, with almost 1200 jobs
:13:22. > :13:27.already lost and hundreds more to come. Many fear for their jobs,
:13:28. > :13:34.having seen leaks sacrificed at the altar of the SNP pledge to deliver
:13:35. > :13:40.1000 additional officers. That is costing ?15 million. It is
:13:41. > :13:44.overlooking the need to scalp another ?60 million per year from
:13:45. > :13:49.police budgets, no matter what. Simple mathematics show that 1000
:13:50. > :13:59.more officers, -1200 support staff, leaves a deficit of staff in the
:14:00. > :14:02.service. The recently announced level of ?20,000 for some police
:14:03. > :14:07.have left many in the police service fiddling let down and disappointed.
:14:08. > :14:12.The police family looks on the edge of a breakdown. It has been reduced
:14:13. > :14:21.to a job, omission replaced by a form of Taylor is -- Taylor's style
:14:22. > :14:24.management. The closure of public counter services and the abandonment
:14:25. > :14:28.of control rooms have been predicated by this government. The
:14:29. > :14:33.truth is that they need to let police Scotland -- raid police
:14:34. > :14:41.Scotland of low-paid staff, to stop these cuts and ensure that these
:14:42. > :14:49.services, once reduced, could be maintained there after. I am happy
:14:50. > :14:53.to give way. Like many other members I have made representations around
:14:54. > :14:58.my constituency but given that the member act the creation of a single
:14:59. > :15:01.force and backed the budget which allocates the money to the police
:15:02. > :15:06.force, what would he be doing differently within that envelope,
:15:07. > :15:10.based on his own voting record? I am grateful for that question. I am
:15:11. > :15:15.hope -- I hope it is meant in the good faith it will be received in.
:15:16. > :15:18.We have a different approach to what has been received here and I will
:15:19. > :15:24.come to it, I promise. The rush to close police control rooms in weeks
:15:25. > :15:33.after a total absence of meaningful consultation and subsequent closures
:15:34. > :15:39.in sterling, and Aberdeen, ahead of any ICT strategy, head of new
:15:40. > :15:44.contracts to replace what have already been called very expensive
:15:45. > :15:49.software is, all smacks of crisis management, driven towards
:15:50. > :15:53.announcing a great success to the public, ?60 million saved, but
:15:54. > :15:57.denying the truth in terms of costing the police, and to some
:15:58. > :16:05.extent, Fire and rescue services, in terms of front facing services.
:16:06. > :16:10.Letters get some terms of front facing services.
:16:11. > :16:17.Holyrood. We have representatives from the SNP and the Conservatives.
:16:18. > :16:21.Thank you for joining me. A litany of complaints from Graeme Pearson
:16:22. > :16:26.about the Scottish police this. Is the police service on the break down
:16:27. > :16:32.-- on the verge of breakdown in Scotland? It is the usual
:16:33. > :16:39.complaint, that everything is going terribly. It is corporal freezer, we
:16:40. > :16:44.are doomed. The police numbers are at a record high, and we have plans
:16:45. > :16:48.in place. Creation of a national police force has allowed us to
:16:49. > :16:56.create experts and specialisms that we were never able to do as 8-macro
:16:57. > :17:02.forces. It is a success story for devolution. But you are closing
:17:03. > :17:06.police counters and police controlled rooms, and when it comes
:17:07. > :17:10.to the fire service, you are closing fire service control rooms. People
:17:11. > :17:17.feel that new national forces are not accountable or taking local
:17:18. > :17:23.views into account. Graham Pearson said it does not matter where the
:17:24. > :17:30.call is picked up, as long as that is what happens, and it is what will
:17:31. > :17:33.happen. We have alternatives, we have people contacting the police
:17:34. > :17:37.through different means. People want to be able to pick up the phone and
:17:38. > :17:40.get through to the police, and they are doing that rather than going
:17:41. > :17:44.into the station 's. We need to shift resources to make sure that
:17:45. > :17:50.people's demands are met. And we need to protect the extra front-line
:17:51. > :17:58.officers that have played such a part in protecting the country. And
:17:59. > :18:04.more responsive service, one that is saving money. You supported these
:18:05. > :18:08.changes. We did not support them and did not vote for this. If
:18:09. > :18:12.changes. We did not support them and everything is fine, he needs to get
:18:13. > :18:16.out more and talk to more people round the country. We have seen the
:18:17. > :18:21.closure of local control rooms, of public counters, and I lead a debate
:18:22. > :18:24.here last night on the removal of traffic wardens from police
:18:25. > :18:32.Scotland, in 18 local authority areas in the country which will
:18:33. > :18:37.cause traffic chaos, a removal of community policing, and I think the
:18:38. > :18:43.concerns being aired in the debate going on at the moment are very real
:18:44. > :18:46.concerns from across the country, and the central agenda is to take
:18:47. > :18:56.away local accountability and responsiveness. But one of the main
:18:57. > :18:59.aims was to save money. The Scottish government is facing a reduced
:19:00. > :19:06.budget from Westminster, as they often point out. So, by close
:19:07. > :19:09.encounters people do not use, they are saving money, by rationalising
:19:10. > :19:15.control rooms, you are also saving money, so I surprised that you are
:19:16. > :19:21.not too keen on civic public money. -- saving public money. The removal
:19:22. > :19:27.of traffic wardens has been done without any consultation in advance
:19:28. > :19:30.with local authorities, so that means that areas will have to find
:19:31. > :19:35.up to ?200,000 a year from their budget to replace the traffic
:19:36. > :19:41.wardens in the local area. That is just passing the cost from one
:19:42. > :19:46.public agency to local authority. So they might say that they are saving
:19:47. > :19:49.money, but it is the pure council taxpayers in sterling that will take
:19:50. > :19:55.the hit on it or otherwise see council services be squeezed. --
:19:56. > :20:06.Stirling. Let me council services be squeezed. --
:20:07. > :20:09.to Rupert Soames' comments, that Scotland will be wrapped tighter
:20:10. > :20:16.than a kipper if they'd is a currency union. What is your view on
:20:17. > :20:21.that? There are some interesting things he said. One of the things he
:20:22. > :20:26.said was that, despite being an avid supporter of a no vote, he was
:20:27. > :20:33.concerned about the exit from the EU. From across the panels, there
:20:34. > :20:36.was a strong endorsement of the requirement for sterling to
:20:37. > :20:42.continue, the desire for it to continue as the currency of Scotland
:20:43. > :20:46.after independence, and we heard repeatedly how much of a benefit
:20:47. > :20:50.that would be for Scotland and the UK. It is the usual political
:20:51. > :20:54.posturing from people who have an interest in scaring the people of
:20:55. > :20:59.Scotland, but the day after the referendum, people will sit down and
:21:00. > :21:02.maturely construct the best way forward for both countries, which we
:21:03. > :21:08.heard was the continuation of sterling. It is a well worn debate,
:21:09. > :21:14.but MSPs were hearing from significant people, and they were
:21:15. > :21:19.making some important points, some of the business people were making
:21:20. > :21:23.important points about how the currency union should happen. Data
:21:24. > :21:29.is one way to guarantee it, and that is to vote no in the referendum. All
:21:30. > :21:34.we are doing is plunging ourselves into uncertainty about the future of
:21:35. > :21:42.the currency. We heard from business figures this morning about the
:21:43. > :21:49.consequences of a currency union. We heard from a prize-winning economist
:21:50. > :21:52.in the New York Times saying that the independence movement's thinking
:21:53. > :21:59.on this was muddleheaded, and you could not have a monetary union
:22:00. > :22:04.on this was muddleheaded, and you union, which would be highly
:22:05. > :22:07.dangerous, in his words. The rest of the UK have made it clear that there
:22:08. > :22:14.is no interest in having a currency union. We have to leave it there.
:22:15. > :22:19.Thank you both very much for joining us.
:22:20. > :22:24.Let us speak to make weight from The Times once again. Let us speak up
:22:25. > :22:31.from that -- pick-up from that point. A litany of complaints about
:22:32. > :22:38.the new police Scotland, that he was laying out in the chamber. Was it
:22:39. > :22:43.fair to make these points? The whole point of it was to try to save money
:22:44. > :22:50.under tighter budgets. It remains me about debates last year about the
:22:51. > :22:55.Coast Guard 's. There is not endless money for the emergency services,
:22:56. > :23:10.and with the best will in the world, there will be cuts. In that debate
:23:11. > :23:16.there, weirdly they can both be right. The police family, and I have
:23:17. > :23:21.spoken to a lot... If Kenny Miss Kath -- Kenny MacAskill appears in
:23:22. > :23:27.front of the police, he gets cheered. I remember in the very
:23:28. > :23:31.recent past resilience issues being reported from press offices and
:23:32. > :23:36.police stations where they are run by civilian staff. So you can both
:23:37. > :23:43.be right, but I do not think there is endless money. You can get some
:23:44. > :23:48.quite controversial points being made, when you hear that the Liberal
:23:49. > :23:52.Democrats were very against the closure of police control rooms and
:23:53. > :23:55.the merging of police forces altogether. They have been
:23:56. > :23:58.campaigning to keep the control rooms.
:23:59. > :24:04.campaigning to keep the control they say it saves money and the
:24:05. > :24:08.calls are still answered. Yes, and the advance in technology makes more
:24:09. > :24:17.things popular remotely. It was an issue on Monday in Portlethen, it
:24:18. > :24:21.was raised, why have you done this to Aberdeen? There is anger on the
:24:22. > :24:26.ground, but both sides of this argument can be right, as it were.
:24:27. > :24:35.Thank you. S head back to the chamber and pick up on that debate.
:24:36. > :24:40.-- S head back to the chamber. Officers from the counterterrorism
:24:41. > :24:47.unit have been deployed to carry out an operation in the Checkland
:24:48. > :24:49.Islands about the availability of drugs in that community. In Tayside,
:24:50. > :25:29.there was 137 officers from the festival has always run smoothly in
:25:30. > :25:45.the past. Yes, but they welcomed the additional officers who came in.
:25:46. > :25:50.Also, during major football games, they were delighted at the extra
:25:51. > :25:53.police officers coming. They'd is concern in Dumfries about how
:25:54. > :26:01.members of relocation arising from the closure
:26:02. > :26:04.of the control them, given how remote it is from these
:26:05. > :26:19.opportunities. What efforts have been made to address these concerns?
:26:20. > :26:22.The chief constable was speaking to leaders of the Council, and that is
:26:23. > :26:28.ongoing. South of the border we have seen the loss of as many officers
:26:29. > :26:33.serve here in Scotland. What's more, we now hear that Labour is
:26:34. > :26:39.supporting the idea of axing elected crying commissioners south of the
:26:40. > :26:47.border, so it is clear that Scotland is leading the way. -- crying
:26:48. > :26:52.commissioners. Last 30 seconds. We can look forward to the outstanding
:26:53. > :26:58.police service we have in Scotland continuing. We have a 29 year low in
:26:59. > :27:04.recorded crime. Violence has dropped by 60% and the crimes of carrying
:27:05. > :27:09.offensive weapons in Glasgow is down by two thirds, down to the
:27:10. > :27:14.outstanding police service, I moved the amendment in my name. Mr
:27:15. > :27:20.Johnson, you have five minutes. I support the motion in the name of
:27:21. > :27:28.Graeme Pearson. I will do so through my particular experience. In
:27:29. > :27:31.listening to the minister, I was worried that he would come to the
:27:32. > :27:35.conclusion that many a minister has come to the fore, and that is that
:27:36. > :27:39.those of us who are concerned about the structures involved in the
:27:40. > :27:42.provision of public service are somehow levying criticism directly
:27:43. > :27:47.at those who provide the service. Let me make it absolutely clear that
:27:48. > :27:51.my sympathies lie with those who provide the police service and the
:27:52. > :27:56.Fire and rescue service, and my criticisms are directly targeted at
:27:57. > :28:09.this government and this Minister. My experience is that police and
:28:10. > :28:15.firemen are often too willing to volunteer their experience. As a
:28:16. > :28:21.conservative, I can make it quite clear that when we consider the
:28:22. > :28:25.proposals originally to streamline our Fire and rescue service and
:28:26. > :28:30.police service, we were quite convinced that there was a case to
:28:31. > :28:36.be made for streamlining. I will carry on at the moment, I afraid. It
:28:37. > :28:42.was choosing that process that it became clear to us that there was no
:28:43. > :28:50.accountability in the new proposals, and that is why I was happy to vote
:28:51. > :28:54.against the proposals that aimed to end that process. We have seen
:28:55. > :28:57.radical decisions taken about the closure of police counters which has
:28:58. > :29:09.impacted in many areas across Scotland, and individuals will bring
:29:10. > :29:14.forward their particular case. That was Alex Johnson, and you can
:29:15. > :29:19.watch the rest of that date on the BBC Scotland website. Now, two prime
:29:20. > :29:23.ministers questions, and David Cameron was put in spot about the
:29:24. > :29:30.collapse of the case of a man charged with killing four soldiers
:29:31. > :29:42.in an IRA attack in London in 1982. The questions below -- began with a
:29:43. > :29:53.question on bankers bonuses. HSBC announced extra bonuses and a
:29:54. > :29:59.rise... Went to many people language languish on the dole, is it not
:30:00. > :30:05.worth listening and getting people back to work? Bank bonuses are well
:30:06. > :30:08.down on the appalling situation left by the last Labour government, but
:30:09. > :30:17.we need to see the proper control of all forms of pay and bonuses. I do
:30:18. > :30:23.not want to see us focusing only on bonuses because you can claw back a
:30:24. > :30:26.bonus, but you cannot back -- you cannot claw back pay, and we do not
:30:27. > :30:36.want to go back to the days of Fred Goodwin where you can be paid well
:30:37. > :30:39.for appalling performance. It is very interesting because someone who
:30:40. > :30:44.in opposition wanted to talk as much as he could about climate change now
:30:45. > :30:48.wants to get off the subject. Will he just said out, for his party and
:30:49. > :30:55.for the country, his views about man-made minor change. I believe
:30:56. > :30:58.man-made climate change is one of the most serious threats this
:30:59. > :31:03.country and the world faces and that is why we have the world 's first
:31:04. > :31:09.investment bank in this country. That is why, unlike 13 wasted years
:31:10. > :31:14.of labour, we are building the first nuclear power station for 30 years
:31:15. > :31:19.in our country. That is why we have cut carbon emissions by 14% since we
:31:20. > :31:25.came to office. That is why we have set out, year-on-year, carbon budget
:31:26. > :31:31.in this country. It takes people to govern effectively and deal with it.
:31:32. > :31:34.Excellent. Excellent. We are getting somewhere. I agree with what he said
:31:35. > :31:40.about the importance of climate change. But the reason this
:31:41. > :31:43.matters, the reason this matters is because there are people in the most
:31:44. > :31:48.important positions in his government going round West Dinning
:31:49. > :31:52.climate change. The energy minister, when
:31:53. > :31:57.climate change. The energy minister, said this, you are not going to draw
:31:58. > :32:01.me on that. I have not had time to get into the climate change debate.
:32:02. > :32:06.He is the energy minister, Mr Speaker, so will be prime Minister
:32:07. > :32:13.clarify, is he happy do have deniers in his government? This is obviously
:32:14. > :32:16.the new approach to Prime Minister questions. You can't the house and
:32:17. > :32:26.praise the Prime Minister. This government has a solid record for
:32:27. > :32:28.cutting carbon emissions, investing in nuclear, the biggest green
:32:29. > :32:31.programme we have seen in our country's history and the first time
:32:32. > :32:37.in a long time we are on track to meet our renewable targets. Perhaps
:32:38. > :32:44.you would like to congratulate me again. Does the prime Minister
:32:45. > :32:47.regret the depth of the hurt among victims families and the deep sense
:32:48. > :32:54.of public outrage right across the country as the result of the outcome
:32:55. > :32:57.of the John Downey case? He needs to understand that for an official
:32:58. > :33:05.letter, a letter signed by an official, to drum -- to trump due
:33:06. > :33:10.process without statutory underpinning is deeply offensive to
:33:11. > :33:15.the public in this country. Will he now scrapped these get out of jail
:33:16. > :33:18.free letters immediately and will he do everything in his power to
:33:19. > :33:22.reverse the despicable decision in the Downey case so that justice can
:33:23. > :33:29.be done for the families of the bereaved? Let me say I completely
:33:30. > :33:33.understand the level of anger and concern that people feel across this
:33:34. > :33:37.country about the appalling events that happened in 1982 and the fact
:33:38. > :33:41.that the person responsible is now not going to be appropriately tried.
:33:42. > :33:45.Of course that is absolutely shocking and our first thought
:33:46. > :33:47.should be with those 11 soldiers and their families and friends. It may
:33:48. > :33:51.have happened 32 years their families and friends. It may
:33:52. > :33:54.anyone who has lost someone in that situation will mourn them today as
:33:55. > :33:57.if it happened yesterday and we should be absolutely clear. The man
:33:58. > :34:02.should never have received the letter that he received. It was a
:34:03. > :34:06.dreadful mistake and a mistake which we now need to have a rapid factual
:34:07. > :34:10.review to make sure this cannot happen again.
:34:11. > :34:14.The Deputy Prime Minister has effectively rolled out a
:34:15. > :34:22.head-to-head debate between him and the Deputy first Minister about
:34:23. > :34:26.Scotland's feature. The Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg was asked about
:34:27. > :34:29.the prospect at a news conference in London following his decision to
:34:30. > :34:32.agree to debate Britain's future in Europe with UKIP's leader. Mr Clegg
:34:33. > :34:35.also spelt out his opposition to independence. You cannot have your
:34:36. > :34:40.cake and eat it. You cannot be independent and be part of a
:34:41. > :34:45.currency union. You cannot lead -- leave the United Kingdom and it
:34:46. > :34:49.expected be a member of Europe the next day effortlessly. You cannot
:34:50. > :34:53.expect for everything else to carry on, bearing the liabilities of the
:34:54. > :34:56.banks represented North of the border. Those are the fact is. Some
:34:57. > :35:02.people may not like those back spot they are back. It is important that
:35:03. > :35:07.at this stage we are candid about that. It is for Alex Salmond to
:35:08. > :35:15.explain. His response so far is just bluster. I am afraid that even he
:35:16. > :35:18.had some point will have do recognise, for instance on the
:35:19. > :35:22.currency issue, that when the whole of the British political
:35:23. > :35:27.establishment says it is not available to you as an option, he
:35:28. > :35:32.cannot pretend that it is. Let's stay at Westminster and speak to our
:35:33. > :35:35.correspondence. David, Mr Clegg was very clear there about the position
:35:36. > :35:42.of the Westminster establishment and it looks like there will be no
:35:43. > :35:45.debate with Nicola Sturgeon. Yes, Nick Clegg taking the opportunity of
:35:46. > :35:49.his monthly news Nick Clegg taking the opportunity of
:35:50. > :35:54.into the independence referendum. We have not heard that much from him
:35:55. > :35:58.today but some of his comments were interesting and to discuss that and
:35:59. > :36:02.some of the other issues happening here at Westminster today, I am
:36:03. > :36:12.joined by three Scottish MPs. Angus MacNeil for the SMP, one by Labour
:36:13. > :36:16.and from the Conservatives. Nick Clegg said today that he was not
:36:17. > :36:19.willing to debate with Nicola Sturgeon and also said about your
:36:20. > :36:24.party leader, as far as independent is concerned, he cannot have his
:36:25. > :36:29.cake and eat it. The whole purpose cake is surely to eat it! I do know
:36:30. > :36:32.what Nick Clegg is saying that is clearly Alex Salmond is coming
:36:33. > :36:37.forward with some good ideas, manifested rational ideas, that we
:36:38. > :36:42.know will be agreed on the 19th of September. Whatever Clegg is saying
:36:43. > :36:45.now, it is just straw in the wind. What he is saying our world changed
:36:46. > :36:50.in the future, as we saw with tuition fees. All I can say about
:36:51. > :36:53.Nick Clegg is that I had with intervention has been as usable as
:36:54. > :37:00.George Osborne, as I have had people come to me absolutely livid about
:37:01. > :37:04.his comments and it is helping us with the Yes campaign. The more
:37:05. > :37:09.nonsense from Clegg and Osborne, the better, for Scotland. Without
:37:10. > :37:15.turning this into a Scottish version of the great bake off, what he was
:37:16. > :37:19.eventually saying was that Alex Hammond is saying we will have this
:37:20. > :37:23.part but not that part and that we will keep the pound, that kind of
:37:24. > :37:30.thing. If the whole question of currency resonating with voters, do
:37:31. > :37:33.you think? I think there is an increasing question about Alex
:37:34. > :37:37.Salmond being a man without a plan for the reasons you suggested. He
:37:38. > :37:39.increased the new says he wants to keep parts of the UK system which he
:37:40. > :37:43.likes, but keep parts of the UK system which he
:37:44. > :37:48.the bits that he does not like. If you are
:37:49. > :37:51.the bits that he does not like. If pull and share your resources for
:37:52. > :37:55.the common good together. That has or has been the Labour vision of the
:37:56. > :37:58.United Kingdom and that is the positive message the Labour Party
:37:59. > :38:01.will continue to take to the people of Scotland. There are increasing
:38:02. > :38:10.questions for him to answer on that point. From the coalition 's point
:38:11. > :38:17.of view, what your party leader was indicating if that you are either in
:38:18. > :38:24.or out? The UK has built up a lot of institutions over the years and I
:38:25. > :38:29.have as many people in Scotland telling me they are angry about the
:38:30. > :38:36.participation in these, and I'm the deputy leader of the Liberal
:38:37. > :38:41.Democrats. I am very happy to debate with Nicola Sturgeon if she wants
:38:42. > :38:46.to. So you would be happy to debate with Nicola Sturgeon? You don't
:38:47. > :38:50.think the party leadership? No, this is for the part -- the people of
:38:51. > :38:57.Scotland, and those who have about should be involved. I have a vote
:38:58. > :39:00.and people are angry that the SNP are selling false perspectives. They
:39:01. > :39:06.have sold them things which are not under their control. It is economic
:39:07. > :39:09.and practical political reality. The rest of the United Kingdom is not
:39:10. > :39:14.going to let Scotland take a piece of the action on its own terms. It
:39:15. > :39:18.will be a negotiation and the negotiation will be nine to one and
:39:19. > :39:23.lots of things that we hold precious now will disappear for ever full.
:39:24. > :39:26.Angus MacNeil, you have had a challenge to your party that Sir
:39:27. > :39:32.Malcolm Bruce will debate with Nicola Sturgeon, but also saying
:39:33. > :39:35.that you have essentially to abide by the economic realities. If
:39:36. > :39:40.Scotland becomes independent, it will be out on its own? Absolutely
:39:41. > :39:47.not. We have no country like that anywhere. We have people wanting a
:39:48. > :39:51.Stirling Central bank to conclude the Channel Islands and the Isle of
:39:52. > :39:54.Man. Manifestly that make sense. The criticism from my two opponents here
:39:55. > :39:58.is that we want to take the good bits and leave the bad bits. Yes,
:39:59. > :40:03.good idea. Why not do that. Keep the good bits because what we are really
:40:04. > :40:07.doing is moving power in Westminster to Holyrood. We are moving power to
:40:08. > :40:15.the most democratic forum... Hold on, you have had your sable is. We
:40:16. > :40:19.are moving power from Westminster to the democratic forum representing
:40:20. > :40:23.the people. The best people to make decisions for Scotland are the
:40:24. > :40:26.Scottish. There are now as many independent countries in Europe as
:40:27. > :40:31.they were in the world 100 years ago. Nobody has given up their
:40:32. > :40:35.independence to come back to London. That is nonsense. The minute
:40:36. > :40:39.Scotland becomes independent, we will joke that if we were
:40:40. > :40:48.independent, only 16% would give up to -- good rate to give that up. I
:40:49. > :40:52.think he is grasping at straws. The situation in the White Paper was
:40:53. > :40:56.very clear. People like a number of things about the UK, including the
:40:57. > :41:01.currency. What has become clear in the past few weeks is that if you
:41:02. > :41:04.like those things, you must stay in the United Kingdom. Scots want
:41:05. > :41:08.clarity in this debate and we are getting some clarity in this debate.
:41:09. > :41:11.Over the next few months, in the run-up to the final decision, that
:41:12. > :41:17.clarity will become ever more apparent. The point here is we have
:41:18. > :41:28.countries using Sterling who are not in the UK. In 1942, there were lots
:41:29. > :41:31.of countries... I think Angus has lost the plot. The SMP said there
:41:32. > :41:36.would be a currency agreement throughout the I did kingdom. What
:41:37. > :41:42.everyone else is saying is that it will not work. For Scotland
:41:43. > :41:49.everyone else is saying is that it rest of the United Kingdom will not
:41:50. > :41:53.allow their budget to be vetoed by Scotland. Zimbabwe uses the dollar,
:41:54. > :41:59.but it does not give it much freedom in its political activity. You are
:42:00. > :42:03.not surely drawing comparisons between Zimbabwe and an independent
:42:04. > :42:12.Scotland? I am only referring to a country which chooses to use another
:42:13. > :42:17.country's currency. Where will it raise funds if it has no credit
:42:18. > :42:22.rating, no central bank? I think we will have to leave it there. This is
:42:23. > :42:26.a topic we will return to, but thank you all very much for joining me. I
:42:27. > :42:30.know you must head back to the House of Commons now for an important
:42:31. > :42:34.vote, so thank you for joining us. Andrew, I think a flavour of the
:42:35. > :42:39.debate there. The weather may be improving but the positions are
:42:40. > :42:46.still witty wildly entrenched. One final question on a subject touched
:42:47. > :42:50.on in Prime Minister 's questions. The collapse of the case against a
:42:51. > :42:56.suspect in the Hyde Park bombing. The Northern Ireland first Minister
:42:57. > :43:01.says he will resign unless there is a judicial enquiry into this. Yes,
:43:02. > :43:04.this is a developing story says the revelations yesterday which has
:43:05. > :43:08.caused a great deal of anger on both sides of the water. The first
:43:09. > :43:11.Minister of Northern Ireland, Peter Robinson, is meeting the Northern
:43:12. > :43:17.Ireland Secretary this afternoon. He is very angry at a number of
:43:18. > :43:22.letters, more than 200, were issued to suspected people within the IRA
:43:23. > :43:27.are basically saying that they would not suffer any threat of prosecution
:43:28. > :43:31.in the future and it was that letter which caused the court case against
:43:32. > :43:38.John Downey to collapse yesterday. It is a very difficult case for the
:43:39. > :43:40.UK government, for politicians in Northern Ireland as well, and it was
:43:41. > :43:47.noticeable in PMQ is that the Prime Minister said what had happened was
:43:48. > :43:51.dreadful but he did not go as far as saying that in any way he wanted to
:43:52. > :43:54.tear up those letters that had been issued or anything like that. What I
:43:55. > :44:01.think the Northern Ireland Secretary will have to do this afternoon is
:44:02. > :44:05.give Peter Robinson at least enough to say that there is going to be an
:44:06. > :44:09.enquiry into this. Everyone here at Westminster knows that the strike is
:44:10. > :44:14.on this are really high. -- the stakes on this are really high. A
:44:15. > :44:17.number of Cabinet backbenchers are saying that if these letters have
:44:18. > :44:22.been given to suspected members of the IRA in the past, what about the
:44:23. > :44:28.British paratroopers from the bloody Sunday massacre who could be facing
:44:29. > :44:31.prosecution, should they not be getting such letters as well, which
:44:32. > :44:35.tells them they will not be threatened with prosecution? It is a
:44:36. > :44:39.very difficult case for everyone and one I think will develop throughout
:44:40. > :44:47.the day and evening. Thank you very much for that update. Let us pick up
:44:48. > :44:53.with a commentator. You mentioned you were at an event today, the
:44:54. > :44:56.Church of Scotland speaking about the discussions they have been
:44:57. > :45:00.having with people about independence, and it sounds a bit
:45:01. > :45:07.counterintuitive but it needs to go beyond the financial side of things.
:45:08. > :45:09.What did they say? There is a fundamental message that was
:45:10. > :45:16.highlighted by the debate on College Green. You saw two completely
:45:17. > :45:22.different polls of opinion and I think that what the church is
:45:23. > :45:26.getting at is the need for a national debate now and on the 19th
:45:27. > :45:30.of September. It is continuity about what they were doing today, and it
:45:31. > :45:35.was actually quite impressive. Notion that we have to get to grips
:45:36. > :45:42.with debate and keep debate at a civilised level, and the big point
:45:43. > :45:48.will come on the 19th of September, the day after the referendum because
:45:49. > :45:51.someone will have lost. We will have to be reconciled at that moment and
:45:52. > :45:54.I thought that was an interesting aspect of what was being talked
:45:55. > :46:00.about and it seems appropriate for the church to look at that. There
:46:01. > :46:09.were representatives from the SNP and the Conservatives, did that come
:46:10. > :46:15.across that there would be some sort of reconciliation? I would not go
:46:16. > :46:18.that far! What was interesting was that they had been selected because
:46:19. > :46:23.they had things in common, they could agree, Baroness Golding made
:46:24. > :46:30.the point that she was in favour of trade Unions. She was talking about
:46:31. > :46:36.a measure of social justice and they were carefully select it, --
:46:37. > :46:41.selected, so there was a unity, if you like. It was interesting to see
:46:42. > :46:48.four women on the panel, which was referred to. Let us pick up on the
:46:49. > :46:52.big issue of the week, the big story. You were in Aberdeen for the
:46:53. > :46:57.Cabinet 's meeting, they were almost like the Jacobite army and the
:46:58. > :47:02.government army meeting at different points in the city. What was the
:47:03. > :47:10.atmosphere like? They were kept apart. I thought it was a very
:47:11. > :47:15.interesting event generally. I thought there was no question that
:47:16. > :47:21.the UK government lost the day's battle. The front cover of the daily
:47:22. > :47:25.record the next day told us that. The headline said, go home and think
:47:26. > :47:29.again. This is a strategy that is going on, which is putting out
:47:30. > :47:36.messages about the instability of the economy in the event of a vote
:47:37. > :47:39.for an independent Scotland, that is the long-term message they were
:47:40. > :47:45.playing. They lost that battle but the important thing for them is that
:47:46. > :47:59.they win the war. It was interesting watching Alex Salmond hosting for
:48:00. > :48:05.photographs with David Cameron, and meeting members of the public. Do
:48:06. > :48:13.you think that seeds have been planted in peoples minds that hope
:48:14. > :48:19.will be cultivated? Catch that they hope will be cultivated? The Better
:48:20. > :48:28.Together campaign have to get closer to the community. We have to leave
:48:29. > :48:33.it there. Thank you very much for joining us. That is all we have time
:48:34. > :48:39.for. We are back at the same time next week. Thank you for your
:48:40. > :48:40.company. From all of us on the team, thank you for joining us, by for
:48:41. > :49:30.now. -- bye-bye. in the churned battlefields
:49:31. > :49:37.of Flanders and Northern France. Four British platoons are making
:49:38. > :49:44.their way through the mud. Each stops at a mass grave
:49:45. > :49:50.and digs up one body.