26/11/2013

:00:16. > :00:22.Good afternoon. Welcome to a special edition of Politics Scotland. Well,

:00:23. > :00:27.it all happened here this morning, at the Science Centre in Glasgow.

:00:28. > :00:34.Scotland's future was launched. The white paper on independence was hot

:00:35. > :00:39.off the printing press. All 670 pages of it. 650 questions were

:00:40. > :00:43.answered. The First Minister, Alex Salmond, says Scotland's future is

:00:44. > :00:47.now in Scotland's hands. It won't be decided by me. It won't be decided

:00:48. > :00:52.by our opponents. It won't be decided by the media. It will be

:00:53. > :01:02.decided by the people. Scotland's future is now in Scotland's hands.

:01:03. > :01:08.The Scottish ministers and yes Scotland team are over to Edinburgh.

:01:09. > :01:11.We will have full coverage of the statement in Parliament a questions

:01:12. > :01:21.too. Glenn Campbell is in the capital. Over to you.

:01:22. > :01:26.Here we are on a wet Tuesday afternoon, just ahead of that

:01:27. > :01:29.statement to Parliament from the deputy First Minister, Nicola

:01:30. > :01:32.Sturgeon, who has been in charge of preparing the white paper on

:01:33. > :01:35.Scotland's future. Your guide to an independent Scotland is how it's

:01:36. > :01:41.framed. Actually the online version you can search to get answers to the

:01:42. > :01:45.questions that you may have. Alex Salmond reckons this is the most

:01:46. > :01:51.comprehensive prospeck Tuesday for an independent -- prospectus for an

:01:52. > :01:54.independent country. Critics for his proposals for Scotland to leave the

:01:55. > :01:59.United Kingdom say it is full of risk and uncertainty. One man who

:02:00. > :02:06.has scanned it cover to cover, not saying he's read every word yet,

:02:07. > :02:09.Professor John Curtis, Professor of politics at Strathclyde University.

:02:10. > :02:14.Much that may seem familiar, other aspects that are less familiar. For

:02:15. > :02:19.you, what are the headlines? I think the first headline is that indeed it

:02:20. > :02:23.is extraordinarily familiar. Perhaps in particular on that central issue

:02:24. > :02:28.of the economy, the issue on which most voters seem are going to decide

:02:29. > :02:31.whether to vote yes or no, this document doesn't come up with

:02:32. > :02:35.anything very new. At the end of the day, the argument that an

:02:36. > :02:39.independent Scotland will be a prosperous Scotland lies on the

:02:40. > :02:42.belief that because she'll be making her own decisions, she'll be more

:02:43. > :02:47.likely to make the right decisions for her economy and would be more

:02:48. > :02:50.prosperous. That's the argument. What's very interesting,

:02:51. > :02:56.economically, is that although this document says that Scotland's public

:02:57. > :02:59.finances in 2016, the first year of independence, would be relatively

:03:00. > :03:06.healthy, as compared with those of the rest of the UK, but at the same

:03:07. > :03:09.time, would still be in deaf us -- deficit, it says what you will not

:03:10. > :03:13.find in this document is virtually anything in the way of a suggestion

:03:14. > :03:17.that an independent Scotland is going to provide much in the way of

:03:18. > :03:23.tax cuts or public spending increases. There's a promise on

:03:24. > :03:26.child care, but beyond that, for personal individuals, at least, it's

:03:27. > :03:30.not obvious how the taxation and spending system would make much much

:03:31. > :03:34.difference. What extent is this document a blueprint for an

:03:35. > :03:37.independent country and to what extent is it a negotiating position

:03:38. > :03:42.from the SNP? Much of this quite clearly is a negotiating position.

:03:43. > :03:46.It begins with the currency, where again, as we've long known, the SNP

:03:47. > :03:50.wish Scotland to use the pound as part of a monetary union with the

:03:51. > :03:54.rest of the UK. The document repeats the argument as to why that should

:03:55. > :03:59.happen. They think it's in England's interest. We know the UK Government

:04:00. > :04:04.and the Labour Party in Westminster are very reluctant. We learned that

:04:05. > :04:09.the public service broadcaster in Scotland would still have a close

:04:10. > :04:11.relationship with the BBC. But that, again, is something that would

:04:12. > :04:16.require agreement with the UK Government. We learn equally, for

:04:17. > :04:20.example, on university funding, we are still going to be apparently

:04:21. > :04:23.part of the same system of UK-wide research councils. That requires

:04:24. > :04:27.agreement with the UK. There are other examples. The truth is, this

:04:28. > :04:32.is a document which lays out what Scotland would like to do as an

:04:33. > :04:37.independent country, but much rests on decisions with Europe or the UK.

:04:38. > :04:43.The big decision to decide this is the referendum next year. The SNP

:04:44. > :04:46.Government allows 18 months for negotiations with the rest of the UK

:04:47. > :04:53.and international organisations, but in this document, also, another a

:04:54. > :04:57.policy promises, if the SNP became the Government of an independent

:04:58. > :05:01.Scotland. How should we disentangle those promises from the structure of

:05:02. > :05:04.the new country? The first thing one has to realise is the first that

:05:05. > :05:10.would happen is that there would be an election in 2016, May 2016, as is

:05:11. > :05:15.currently scheduled. Maybe the SNP would win that election, maybe

:05:16. > :05:19.they'd get an overall majority again, but maybe not. There's no

:05:20. > :05:22.guarantee that the SNP would necessarily inherit the earth even

:05:23. > :05:27.if they delivered it. Thank you very much. As we wait for the deputy

:05:28. > :05:31.First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, to address the Parliament, let's

:05:32. > :05:34.reflect on some of the remarks that she and her boss, the First

:05:35. > :05:39.Minister, Alex Salmond, made at the launch of the white paper on

:05:40. > :05:44.independence in Glasgow this morning.

:05:45. > :05:49.Good morning, ladies and gentleman. This white paper is the most

:05:50. > :05:56.detailed blueprint that any people have ever been offered anywhere in

:05:57. > :06:00.the world as a basis for becoming an independent country. It puts beyond

:06:01. > :06:07.doubt that an independent Scotland would start from a position of

:06:08. > :06:10.strength. In fact, we become independent in more promising

:06:11. > :06:14.circumstances than any other nature in history. That reflects our

:06:15. > :06:20.underlying strengths, an independent Scotland could have the eighth

:06:21. > :06:23.highest economic output and the 10th highest per national income per head

:06:24. > :06:28.of population in the developed world. We have contributed more in

:06:29. > :06:33.taxes per person for the -- than the rest of the UK for the every single

:06:34. > :06:39.one of the last 32 years. It reflects our vast Poe ten shall as a

:06:40. > :06:50.country. We -- potential as a country. We have astounding cultural

:06:51. > :06:54.heritage, natural resources and a skilled and exciting people. We need

:06:55. > :06:59.to seize opportunities to build a fairer nation, but also to face our

:07:00. > :07:05.major challenges. Because we will also have to tackle a legacy of

:07:06. > :07:08.debt, of low growth, of social inequality, bequeathed to us by

:07:09. > :07:13.Westminster's control of our economy. The white paper sets out in

:07:14. > :07:20.detail how Scotland would become independent. It explains the choices

:07:21. > :07:26.that independence gives us. It addresses 650 reasonable questions

:07:27. > :07:29.which we've been asked, real people asking real questions, but

:07:30. > :07:33.ultimately, at the heart of this debate, there's only one question or

:07:34. > :07:38.one choice: Do we, the people who live and work in Scotland, believe

:07:39. > :07:43.that we are the best people to take the big decisions about our future?

:07:44. > :07:48.That question will be the subject for an impassion and, I hope, a

:07:49. > :07:52.positive debate between now and next September. I want people to consider

:07:53. > :07:56.the issues, to put forward opinions, to reach conclusions together,

:07:57. > :07:59.because that's the most important thing about this referendum. It

:08:00. > :08:04.won't decided by me. It won't be decided by our opponents. It won't

:08:05. > :08:13.be decided by the media. It will be decided by the people. Scotland's

:08:14. > :08:18.future is now in Scotland's hands. Scotland's future is a

:08:19. > :08:21.forward-looking, ambitious, and aspirational guide to the

:08:22. > :08:27.opportunities and benefits of independence. It is built on the

:08:28. > :08:30.simple, but powerful belief that decisions about Scotland should be

:08:31. > :08:36.taken in Scotland by the people who live and work here. It sets out the

:08:37. > :08:40.economic, social and democratic case for independence. It explains how,

:08:41. > :08:45.as a nation, we can make the journey from a yes vote in the referendum

:08:46. > :08:50.next September to taking our place as an independent member of the

:08:51. > :08:56.family of nations on the 24th March, 2016. Independence is not just an

:08:57. > :09:01.end in itself. It is the means to building a wealthier and fairer

:09:02. > :09:04.Scotland. That's why Scotland's future illustrates, through a series

:09:05. > :09:08.of policy choices, that this Scottish Government would make, how

:09:09. > :09:13.we can grow our economy faster and make our society fairer. At its

:09:14. > :09:16.heart is a proposal to transform child care, to give children the

:09:17. > :09:21.best start in life and support more women to enter the work place. This

:09:22. > :09:24.is a policy that will have a positive impact on the life chances

:09:25. > :09:29.of children and parents alike, create jobs and grow our economy. We

:09:30. > :09:34.would also call a halt to damaging Westminster policies that are

:09:35. > :09:41.pushing so many people into poverty, abollish the bedroom tax and ensure

:09:42. > :09:50.the incomes of the lowest paid keeps track with the cost of living. We

:09:51. > :09:54.will make sure our pensions are there with the triple lock. We will

:09:55. > :09:58.ensure that our country has strong defences but that Trident nuclear

:09:59. > :10:03.weapons are removed as soon as is safe live possible. Our message to

:10:04. > :10:07.the people of Scotland is this: Take the opportunity to read Scotland's

:10:08. > :10:12.future, compare it with the relentless negativity of the other

:10:13. > :10:16.side of this debate and make up your own mind. As of today, Scotland's

:10:17. > :10:22.future really is in Scotland's hands.

:10:23. > :10:25.The deputy First Minister at the launch this morning. You probably

:10:26. > :10:30.saw from those pictures there were plenty of journalists from home and

:10:31. > :10:36.abroad in attendance at that event. Although some of those based at

:10:37. > :10:39.Westminster wondered if Alex Salmond had already declared independence

:10:40. > :10:44.when they were issued with not domestic media passes but

:10:45. > :10:48.international media passes. Alex Salmond joked, in effect, that he

:10:49. > :10:55.could see into the future, beyond the referendum. Of course, at this

:10:56. > :10:59.stage, yes tends to trail no in most opinion polls. Lots are undecided in

:11:00. > :11:11.their voting intentions. The First Minister hopes that the waverers can

:11:12. > :11:15.be decided. It addresses border control, currency and child care

:11:16. > :11:19.going back to this morning's event, one journalist asked the First

:11:20. > :11:26.Minister if it was incompatible to want to have more inward migration

:11:27. > :11:31.to Scotland and no formal border controls. No. I think if you examine

:11:32. > :11:40.the document, we examine the difference of being, for example,

:11:41. > :11:44.Irish immigration policy compared to UK immigration policy. We have

:11:45. > :11:48.common travel between the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic. But

:11:49. > :11:52.we argue to the green card system, similar to the system the Irish

:11:53. > :11:58.Republic have per sued. I think there is a difference in attitude in

:11:59. > :11:59.serms of -- terms of the importance, firstly, of providing the

:12:00. > :12:04.opportunity for skilled young firstly, of providing the

:12:05. > :12:08.to work -- Scots to work in our country if they choose to do so.

:12:09. > :12:11.Freedom of movement is one of the great assets of the modern world.

:12:12. > :12:15.People should have the opportunity to deploy their skills in their own

:12:16. > :12:21.country if that's what they wish. Secondly, we don't have this

:12:22. > :12:24.negative view of the importance of skilled young people, many of whom

:12:25. > :12:29.we have educated in Scotland, some of the 30,000 international students

:12:30. > :12:32.that we educate, if they wish to come and work and contribute to the

:12:33. > :12:38.Scottish economy. That would be an extremely positive thing. We want to

:12:39. > :12:42.break the cycle, which other-wise awaits us of low growth, low

:12:43. > :12:46.population growth. We want to break that and break it decisively and we

:12:47. > :12:50.set forward policies which will enable us to do that.

:12:51. > :12:54.REPORTER: Isn't it the case if there was a governance arrangement with

:12:55. > :12:57.the Bank of England, Scotland still wouldn't get the interest rates that

:12:58. > :13:01.suit it, because it would be out voted in that arrangement? Well, one

:13:02. > :13:07.of the arguments that you probably saw in the firstical commission

:13:08. > :13:14.paper -- fiscal commission paper, our paper is based on the work of

:13:15. > :13:18.the commission, which put forward that the reasons why sterling area

:13:19. > :13:24.would work in the best interests of Scotland and the UK. I've talked

:13:25. > :13:29.about trade relationships, but one of the arguments is that Scottish

:13:30. > :13:34.productist is -- productivity is identical to the UK anding. --

:13:35. > :13:39.average. Our employment is higher than the UK average. Our labour

:13:40. > :13:44.dissipation is higher than the UK average. These things haven't always

:13:45. > :13:48.been the case in Scotland, but we've established them over the last few

:13:49. > :13:53.years. Therefore the monetary policy, over an area where

:13:54. > :13:58.productivity is identical is one of the arguments contained in the

:13:59. > :14:02.fiscal commission Working Group. REPORTER: One of the eye-catching

:14:03. > :14:08.policies is a commitment to free child care for all preschool

:14:09. > :14:11.children, over 1100 hours virtually every child in Scotland would get

:14:12. > :14:16.free child care, would transform Scotland you say. Do you need

:14:17. > :14:20.independence to deliver that? Can't it just be done through the Scottish

:14:21. > :14:23.Parliament and how much would it cost? The whole point of

:14:24. > :14:27.transformation of child care is not just to make sure that we're giving

:14:28. > :14:30.children the best start in life, but as I indicated in my opening remarks

:14:31. > :14:37.to ensure that we support women into the work place. Our female

:14:38. > :14:42.participation rate in the work place is higher than the UK as a whole,

:14:43. > :14:46.but lower than many comparable European countries. So women

:14:47. > :14:50.generate tax revenues and grow the economy. Welcome back to the studio.

:14:51. > :14:54.That was Nicola Sturgeon speaking at the press conference a short while

:14:55. > :15:04.ago. Now she's making her statement in Parliament. The independence of a

:15:05. > :15:08.country that has ever been published. The Government promised

:15:09. > :15:15.the people of Scotland and indeed this parliament detailed proposals

:15:16. > :15:18.for independence, the opportunities of independence, the benefits for

:15:19. > :15:22.individuals and communities and our nation and the practicalities of how

:15:23. > :15:28.we move from a yes vote in September next year to becoming an independent

:15:29. > :15:32.country in March 2016. Scotland's future provides all of this detail

:15:33. > :15:36.and more. I realise that members will need time to read and digest

:15:37. > :15:39.the contents of this landmark document. The Government has

:15:40. > :15:42.therefore made time for a full debate tomorrow afternoon and I am

:15:43. > :15:45.sure that there will be many opportunities to discuss and debate

:15:46. > :15:49.the detail of it, both here in parliament and across the country in

:15:50. > :15:55.the months leading up to the referendum. Today I want to set out

:15:56. > :15:57.the key themes of Scotland's future and provide information on how the

:15:58. > :16:01.Government intends to raise awareness of it and ensure that the

:16:02. > :16:06.public knows how to access the guide and the detailed information that it

:16:07. > :16:12.contains. As members will be aware, the guide is in five parts. Part one

:16:13. > :16:16.gives an overview of the compelling case for independence and describes

:16:17. > :16:21.what our newly independent Scotland will look like. Part two sets out

:16:22. > :16:26.the financial strengths of our country, forecasts Scotland's fiscal

:16:27. > :16:29.position at the point of independence and makes clear how

:16:30. > :16:32.this Government, if elected in 2016 to be the first Government of an

:16:33. > :16:37.independent Scotland would deliver our priorities within sound public

:16:38. > :16:41.finances. Part three details the benefits and opportunities of

:16:42. > :16:43.independence across the entire range of Government responsibilities that

:16:44. > :16:47.will transfer from Westminster to the Scottish parliament in the event

:16:48. > :16:51.of a yes vote and illustrates through a set of Scottish Government

:16:52. > :16:56.policy choices how we can start to use the new powers of independence

:16:57. > :17:00.to grow our economy and tackle the inequality that is so unacceptable

:17:01. > :17:04.in a rich country. Part four describes how we will become

:17:05. > :17:07.independent, the negotiations, agreements and preparations that

:17:08. > :17:12.will be required in the transition period between a yes vote next year

:17:13. > :17:16.and independence day on 24th March 2016. It also considers the

:17:17. > :17:22.opportunity independence will give us to develop a modern written

:17:23. > :17:27.constitution fit for the 21st century. Part five provides a

:17:28. > :17:30.comprehensive set of answers, 650 in all, to the range of questions that

:17:31. > :17:35.we have been asked about the benefits and practicalities of

:17:36. > :17:39.independence. I will talk about the contents of each of these parts in

:17:40. > :17:44.more detail. The case for independence that is set out in part

:17:45. > :17:49.one rests on three key pillars, democracy, prosperity and social

:17:50. > :17:52.justice. The Scottish Government wants Scotland to become an

:17:53. > :17:55.independent country because we believe that decisions about

:17:56. > :17:58.Scotland should be taken by the people who care most about the

:17:59. > :18:03.future of Scotland, those of us who live and work here. It is better and

:18:04. > :18:07.right that decisions are made here in our democratically elected

:18:08. > :18:12.parliament and not by Westminster governments that are very often in

:18:13. > :18:17.Government despite having lost the election in Scotland. That is the

:18:18. > :18:21.democratic case for independence. We want Scotland to become independent

:18:22. > :18:26.because we believe that access to our own vast resources and the

:18:27. > :18:30.ability to take decisions that will grow our economy faster are

:18:31. > :18:34.essential to put our economy and our public finances on a strong and

:18:35. > :18:40.sustainable footing and ensure that our country can reach its full

:18:41. > :18:45.potential. That is the economic case for independence. We want Scotland

:18:46. > :18:49.to become independent because we believe that being part of one of

:18:50. > :18:54.the most unequal countries in the developed world is simply not

:18:55. > :18:57.acceptable. And that with independence we can choose to do

:18:58. > :19:01.things differently. We can ensure that our children get the best

:19:02. > :19:05.possible start in life and that we have public services to be proud of.

:19:06. > :19:08.We can ensure that the incomes of the lowest paid keep pace with the

:19:09. > :19:13.cost of living and we can design a system of social protection that

:19:14. > :19:17.invests in the potential of people, one that supports people into work

:19:18. > :19:24.but provides a decent safety net for those who can't. That is the social

:19:25. > :19:28.justice case for independence. Part one of Scotland's Future also sets

:19:29. > :19:33.out some of the real consequences for Scotland if there is a no vote

:19:34. > :19:37.in the referendum. The fact is there will be no guarantee whatsoever of

:19:38. > :19:41.any more powers for our parliament, there will be a real threat to

:19:42. > :19:45.Scotland's budget from the review of the Barnet formula that senior

:19:46. > :19:50.politicians in all UK parties now seem to favour and there will be a

:19:51. > :19:54.real and present risk that Scotland could be taken out of the European

:19:55. > :19:59.Union against our will. These are the real consequences of voting no

:20:00. > :20:05.in the referendum next year. Part two of this document on our national

:20:06. > :20:08.finances demonstrates that we are a wealthy and productive country, with

:20:09. > :20:13.independence we would be the 8th richest country in the OECD in terms

:20:14. > :20:19.of output per head of population and the 10th richest country in terms of

:20:20. > :20:22.income per head. We more than pay our way, for every one of the last

:20:23. > :20:26.30 years whether oil prices have been high or oil prices have been

:20:27. > :20:32.low, estimates show that we have generated more tax per head than the

:20:33. > :20:37.UK as a whole. Our financial foundations are solid, even with a

:20:38. > :20:43.population share of UK debt, our debt to GDP ratio is projected to

:20:44. > :20:48.belower than the UK's. Our starting point is a strong one. But the

:20:49. > :20:53.starting point is just that, a starting point. The benefit, the

:20:54. > :21:00.real benefit of independence is the ability it gives us to shape our own

:21:01. > :21:04.future. Beyond 2016 our future prosperity will depend on the

:21:05. > :21:08.decisions we make as a nation and that is the whole point of

:21:09. > :21:12.independence. We will have a chance to make different and better

:21:13. > :21:15.decisions for Scotland. We will not simply continue with the same old

:21:16. > :21:20.Westminster policies that have failed us in the past and will fail

:21:21. > :21:25.us again in the future. Instead we can take the action that is needed

:21:26. > :21:33.to grow our economy and ensure that we have a growing healthy and

:21:34. > :21:38.skilled population. Part three sets out exactly how we can start to do

:21:39. > :21:42.this. It provides a comprehensive analysis of the benefits that

:21:43. > :21:46.independence will bring across the entire range of policy areas and

:21:47. > :21:50.sets out just some of the ways in which this Government would use the

:21:51. > :21:56.new powers of independence, I will highlight here just a few. Firstly,

:21:57. > :22:01.with control of our own resources we could embark on a transformational

:22:02. > :22:07.expansion of child care. It is our aim that all children from age one

:22:08. > :22:13.to when they enter school will have access... Order. To a guaranteed 30

:22:14. > :22:16.hours of child care per week for 38 weeks of the year. The same number

:22:17. > :22:19.of hours as children spend at primary school. By the end of the

:22:20. > :22:23.first term we intend to have delivered this policy for all three

:22:24. > :22:26.and four-year-olds and vulnerable two-year-olds. This policy will

:22:27. > :22:31.provide our children with the best start in life. It will enable many

:22:32. > :22:35.more women to join the workforce to fulfil their potential, provide for

:22:36. > :22:40.their families and contribute tax revenues to our economy.

:22:41. > :22:47.APPLAUSE It will create 35,000 new jobs.

:22:48. > :22:51.Independence allows us to ensure that the economic benefits from

:22:52. > :22:55.increased growth and, therefore, increased tax revenues, will stay in

:22:56. > :23:01.Scotland, rather than flow straight to the Westminster treasuary. That

:23:02. > :23:08.is why we need independence to successfully deliver this

:23:09. > :23:11.ground-breaking policy. APPLAUSE

:23:12. > :23:15.Secondly, we would call a halt to the damaging Westminster policies

:23:16. > :23:21.that are pushing so many people into poverty. We would abolish the

:23:22. > :23:24.bedroom tax within a year of the first election, to the first

:23:25. > :23:29.independent parliament. We would choose not to proceed with the

:23:30. > :23:32.rollout of universal credit and personal independence payments.

:23:33. > :23:37.These programmes are mired in controversy and delay and they will

:23:38. > :23:40.cause misery to some of our most vulnerable citizens. Independence

:23:41. > :23:45.will give us the chance informed by the ongoing work of our expert group

:23:46. > :23:50.on welfare to build a fair and efficient social protection system

:23:51. > :23:54.that is fit for purpose. Thirdly, because we know that a fair society

:23:55. > :23:58.needs a strong economy, we will ensure that our business taxes are

:23:59. > :24:03.competitive and support growth. We will do this as part of an

:24:04. > :24:06.industrial and economic policy to grow our economy, boost jobs and

:24:07. > :24:12.increase participation in the workforce. This paper contains many

:24:13. > :24:16.other detailed proposals for an independent Scotland. The advantages

:24:17. > :24:20.for farmers and fishing communities, for broadcasting, for a transport

:24:21. > :24:23.connection and our universities. It sets out exactly how we will effect

:24:24. > :24:27.the transition from being a member of the EU as part of the UK, to

:24:28. > :24:32.being a fully independent member with a seat at the top table and the

:24:33. > :24:36.ability to protect our vital national interests. It sets out how

:24:37. > :24:40.the governance of our nation would be underpinned by a written

:24:41. > :24:44.constitution to protect our freedom and our rights. It describes in

:24:45. > :24:49.detail the arrangements we will put in place to secure and defend our

:24:50. > :24:54.nation. It sets out our clear aim that during the first parliamentary

:24:55. > :24:58.term of an independent Scotland nuclear weapons of mass destruction

:24:59. > :25:04.will be removed from our country once and for all.

:25:05. > :25:08.APPLAUSE These are just some of the benefits

:25:09. > :25:13.of Scotland becoming an independent country. Part four sets out how we

:25:14. > :25:18.will make the transition from a yes vote in the referendum to becoming

:25:19. > :25:22.that independent country in March 2016. It describes the preparations

:25:23. > :25:25.and the legal processes that will be required and the range of

:25:26. > :25:30.negotiations that we will have with Westminster, the European Union, and

:25:31. > :25:34.other international partners. These negotiations will include

:25:35. > :25:37.arrangements for the equitable division of assets and liabilities,

:25:38. > :25:41.the delivery of public services across Scotland and the rest of the

:25:42. > :25:47.UK and our continued membership of the EU and other international

:25:48. > :25:51.organisations. On all of these we set out reasonable, rationale and

:25:52. > :25:56.common sense proposals that are in the interests of Scotland and in the

:25:57. > :26:02.interests of the rest of the UK. Finally, part five answers the range

:26:03. > :26:08.of questions that have been asked of us in recent months. This ex-tensive

:26:09. > :26:12.and detailed Q and A which is searchable online will be a valuable

:26:13. > :26:17.resource for everyone in Scotland, indeed for everyone in this Scottish

:26:18. > :26:20.parliament. This guide to independence is intended for the

:26:21. > :26:25.public. We want as many people as possible to read it. Let me turn now

:26:26. > :26:29.to what we will do to ensure that everyone in Scotland has the

:26:30. > :26:33.opportunity to read it. This guide has an initial print run of 20,000

:26:34. > :26:37.copies but it will be made available to everyone who requests a copy. It

:26:38. > :26:41.has been designed to be as accessible and reader friendly as

:26:42. > :26:45.possible. A summary document is also available in print and online. A

:26:46. > :26:51.fully searchable document is available at WWW. Scotreferendum.com

:26:52. > :26:58.and reference copies will be available in local libraries. An

:26:59. > :27:07.e-book copy is available on website and from Itunes store and Amazon.

:27:08. > :27:16.You can request a copy by e-mailing or they can phone 03000121809.

:27:17. > :27:22.Copies for individuals in the UK will be free while bulk and overseas

:27:23. > :27:25.order will attract a charge of ?10 plus posting and packaging. Public

:27:26. > :27:30.information campaigns will be launched this week using radio,

:27:31. > :27:34.press and outdoor advertising and an information postcode will be sent to

:27:35. > :27:38.every household advising people how they can access the guide. The total

:27:39. > :27:43.cost of the public information campaign will be ?450,000. A final

:27:44. > :27:46.figure for the printing of the document will not be available until

:27:47. > :27:50.we know what the final demand for hard copies turns out to be but I

:27:51. > :27:55.will of course update parliament further on that in due course. In

:27:56. > :27:59.the 1997 devolution referendum alongside publication of the White

:28:00. > :28:00.Paper a leaflet was posted to every house and a promotional video

:28:01. > :28:14.produced by the then Scottish Office. There is lfr a precedent.

:28:15. > :28:20.Presiding Officer, we face a historic year in Scotland. Two key

:28:21. > :28:27.dates are now firmly established, the 18th September 2014 when we

:28:28. > :28:32.choose our future and the 24th March 2016 when we will, I believe, become

:28:33. > :28:37.an independent country. I believe that with this comprehensive set of

:28:38. > :28:40.answers about the practicalities of independence and detailed proposals

:28:41. > :28:44.on the benefits of independence Scotland's future will now be the

:28:45. > :28:50.document that drives this debate. It sets out the vision and the detailed

:28:51. > :28:54.plan. There is simply no equivalent on the no side. With Scotland's

:28:55. > :28:58.Prour providing positive case for a yes vote the absence of detail and

:28:59. > :29:06.vision from the no side will no longer be enough. Today's

:29:07. > :29:10.publication changes the dynamic of this debate. The challenge is now

:29:11. > :29:14.for those who oppose independence to move beyond project fear and give us

:29:15. > :29:17.their vision for Scotland's future and to answer the important

:29:18. > :29:21.questions about what happens to Scotland if we don't vote yes.

:29:22. > :29:26.Presiding Officer, our message to the people of Scotland is this, take

:29:27. > :29:29.the opportunity to read Scotland's Future. Consider the positive

:29:30. > :29:33.opportunities that independence offers our country. Compare and

:29:34. > :29:39.contrast it with the relentless negativity of the other side and

:29:40. > :29:44.make up your own mind. As of today, Scotland's Future really is in

:29:45. > :29:49.Scotland's hands. APPLAUSE

:29:50. > :29:54.The Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon speaking live there, laying

:29:55. > :30:00.out her case for independence, speaking to the Scotland's Future

:30:01. > :30:05.document. She will now take questions from the other members

:30:06. > :30:09.just now. There were three key pillars, how to make Scotland more

:30:10. > :30:13.democratic, a more prosperous country and how to make it a fairer

:30:14. > :30:18.society. She said there was a whole point about different and better

:30:19. > :30:25.decisions for Scotland. The Labour leader is now on her feet. What we

:30:26. > :30:28.have today doesn't mark the end of the United Kingdom, but perhaps it

:30:29. > :30:42.marks the beginning of the end of the yes campaign.

:30:43. > :30:47.670 pages, yes, but 670 pages of assertion, uncertainty amplified the

:30:48. > :30:51.statement from the Deputy First Minister which was a full exercise

:30:52. > :30:58.in assertion without evidence. So still no guarantee on the currency.

:30:59. > :31:03.The much vaunted legal opinion on our EU membership noticeable only by

:31:04. > :31:08.its absence. And the headline offer - another promise on child care

:31:09. > :31:16.which the Scottish Government could deliver now, but refuses to do so.

:31:17. > :31:23.Children denied the chance of proper care until their parents vote the

:31:24. > :31:30.way the SNP wants them to. How cynical is that? Beyond today's

:31:31. > :31:35.events, the fundamental questions remain unanswered. Does the Deputy

:31:36. > :31:39.First Minister not accept that she cannot guarantee Scots what currency

:31:40. > :31:45.they would have for their wages, their mortgages, their pensions and

:31:46. > :31:49.savings. She cannot guarantee because her plan to reply on the

:31:50. > :31:57.goodwill of the rest of the United Kingdom, the same people... Order.

:31:58. > :32:00.It requires her to rely on the goodwill of the rest of the United

:32:01. > :32:05.Kingdom, the same people she claims are doing us down and it's why we

:32:06. > :32:10.need to leave the United Kingdom in the first place. But of course, the

:32:11. > :32:15.Deputy First Minister says if Scotland isn't allowed to keep the

:32:16. > :32:21.pound, we shall simply default on our debts. The reality is this: The

:32:22. > :32:33.SNP are asking for a divorce but they want to keep the joint bank

:32:34. > :32:38.account. So, is Plan B simply to do a runner? Order.

:32:39. > :32:46.APPLAUSE Order. It's good to know on this

:32:47. > :32:52.important day for Scotland, Joanne Lamont is her usual, cheery self.

:32:53. > :32:58.LAUGHTER Order. One thing that is certain...

:32:59. > :33:04.Order. Whenever she gets the opportunity she manages to strike

:33:05. > :33:09.entirely the wrong tone and note. It doesn't surprise me, it really

:33:10. > :33:11.doesn't surprise me to hear Joanne Lamont's questions. I could have

:33:12. > :33:17.written that script at any time over the past few weeks. There was an

:33:18. > :33:23.article in the Spectator magazine a couple of weeks ago Order. Saying

:33:24. > :33:27.they had seen the no side's rebuttal to the white paper before it was

:33:28. > :33:32.published.. Know what the no side will say. It's hardly a surprise,

:33:33. > :33:37.you're trying to persuade people to vote no. Let me take the two issues

:33:38. > :33:41.she raised. On the European Union, we set out a clear, reasonable and

:33:42. > :33:45.rational position fully consistent with the legal advice that shows how

:33:46. > :33:49.Scotland will make the transition to being a member of the EU as part of

:33:50. > :33:53.the UK to being an independent member of the EU, able to properly

:33:54. > :33:57.represent our national interests. You know something, the only risk

:33:58. > :34:04.that exists right now to Scotland's membership of the European Union is

:34:05. > :34:07.the in-out referendum offered by David Cameron, that risks taking us

:34:08. > :34:11.out of the European Union against our will. On currency, let me make

:34:12. > :34:15.it clear to Joanne Lamont in case she missed it, Scotland will

:34:16. > :34:19.continue to use the pound. That pound is as much ours as it is the

:34:20. > :34:23.rest of the UK's. That position is not just put forward as a reasonable

:34:24. > :34:26.and rational position in the interests of Scotland, it is put

:34:27. > :34:30.forward because it is a reasonable and rational position in the

:34:31. > :34:34.interests of the rest of the UK as well. For three reasons: Firstly,

:34:35. > :34:40.our trading relationship. Scotland is the rest of the UK's second

:34:41. > :34:43.biggest export market. They export 60 billion of goods into Scotland.

:34:44. > :34:46.It would make no sense for a Westminster Government to force its

:34:47. > :34:51.own businesses into a different currency. Secondly, our massive

:34:52. > :34:56.contribution to the UK's balance of payments. If we take our 40 billion

:34:57. > :35:00.of oil and gas exports out of the UK's balance of payments, it leaves

:35:01. > :35:06.rather a big hole that would be extremely damaging to a sterling

:35:07. > :35:09.currency. Thirdly, the point that she alluded to, I'm not making

:35:10. > :35:14.threats, I leave that to the other side of this campaign, I'm simply

:35:15. > :35:17.making the point that any sensible negotiation, we talk about assets

:35:18. > :35:21.and liabilities. I think Scotland should take a fair share of

:35:22. > :35:25.liabilities of the UK, but I also think we should get a fair share of

:35:26. > :35:32.assets and you don't have one without the other.

:35:33. > :35:36.APPLAUSE Ruth Davidson. Thank you. The people

:35:37. > :35:39.of Scotland have been waiting a long time to get answers on what

:35:40. > :35:42.independence might look like. I think people right across the

:35:43. > :35:47.country will have looked at the launch of this white paper today and

:35:48. > :35:51.have thought - is this it? Is this why we should break apart a United

:35:52. > :35:57.Kingdom that Scotland has spent 300 years helping to build? Is this why

:35:58. > :36:01.we should sacrifice one half of our shared nationhood, hour dual

:36:02. > :36:04.identity? Is this why we should walk away? The truth is there was very

:36:05. > :36:12.little new that we haven't heard before. Little except that pledge on

:36:13. > :36:15.child care. Now for six years, the deputy First Minister has sat in a

:36:16. > :36:20.Scottish Government with full powers over child care. For six years the

:36:21. > :36:24.Scottish Conservatives, the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats have

:36:25. > :36:30.been urging her Government to give more people with child care to

:36:31. > :36:35.Scottish families. Now, suddenly, after six years, we get this

:36:36. > :36:39.promise. It was illuminating that when the deputy First Minister was

:36:40. > :36:43.asked this morning why, in six years, she had not helped families

:36:44. > :36:46.in this way, when she had the powers to do so? She answered that she

:36:47. > :36:50.hadn't helped, when she could, because the tax receipts of women

:36:51. > :36:58.going back to work would have gone to the UK Treasury. Now, if the

:36:59. > :37:02.Deputy First Minister wants to prove that this pledge isn't retail

:37:03. > :37:06.politics, it isn't jotted down on the back of a fag packet, can she

:37:07. > :37:15.tell us how much the policy would cost, how much per year - 1,140

:37:16. > :37:20.hours of child care for ages one to school will cost? And why is the

:37:21. > :37:24.costing no the in the document? Can I say firstly, I would be happy to

:37:25. > :37:30.allow the people of Scotland to judge this document. That's why we

:37:31. > :37:36.are taking great pains to make sure everybody has copy. -- has access to

:37:37. > :37:40.a copy. The question for the other side of the debate is where is your

:37:41. > :37:43.equivalent. We have the case for independence. Where is the case for

:37:44. > :37:47.the no proposition. On the specific issue of child care, I mean, I think

:37:48. > :37:52.it's interesting that Ruth Davidson comes to this chamber and completely

:37:53. > :37:56.distorts a quote that I gave on the radio this morning. We will put that

:37:57. > :37:59.to one side. The fact is this Government has been increasing child

:38:00. > :38:02.care provision all through the time we have been in Government and we're

:38:03. > :38:07.continuing to do it right now. But if we want to make not just

:38:08. > :38:12.incremental increases but a transformational change in the

:38:13. > :38:16.provision of child care we need to access the increased revenues that

:38:17. > :38:24.flow from that policy. If we able, just as if an example, to bring --

:38:25. > :38:29.as an example, to bring female participation in the workforce to,

:38:30. > :38:33.say, Sweden, we would have increased tax revenue to the tune of ?700

:38:34. > :38:40.million every year. That revenue funds that policy. That's the reason

:38:41. > :38:43.you need independence to do this. If Ruth Davidson had been watching the

:38:44. > :38:46.live stream of the launch this morning, she'd have heard me give

:38:47. > :38:50.the answers to the question about costing, part two of this document

:38:51. > :38:54.sets out how we will deliver priorities within sound public

:38:55. > :38:59.finances. ?100 million within the first budget for phase one. ?600

:39:00. > :39:02.million by the time we get to the end of the first Parliament. By

:39:03. > :39:04.then, we see increased revenues from having more women able to

:39:05. > :39:08.participate in the workforce. It's the kind of ambitious,

:39:09. > :39:12.transformational, life-changing policy that independence gives us

:39:13. > :39:16.the ability to do. If the opposition would raise their sights and

:39:17. > :39:22.ambition, they might find it within themselves to support it.

:39:23. > :39:27.APPLAUSE Order. Can I advise members that I

:39:28. > :39:31.have 20 members who wish to ask a question. It is unlikely I'm going

:39:32. > :39:35.to get through everybody. But if the questions are brief and the answers

:39:36. > :39:38.are brief, then we might make considerable progress. Can I remind

:39:39. > :39:42.members, we are having a debate tomorrow, so can you keep the

:39:43. > :39:51.questions as questions and answers as brief as possible. Thank you. The

:39:52. > :39:56.thing that excites me most about independence is the opportunities to

:39:57. > :40:02.make transformational changes to our society and economy. That's why I

:40:03. > :40:07.welcome so much the comment in regards to child care in Scotland's

:40:08. > :40:11.future. Can the Deputy First Minister provide detail how with

:40:12. > :40:16.independence we can transform child care for Scotland and explain to the

:40:17. > :40:20.doom sayers how this policy will not only help Scottish families, but

:40:21. > :40:28.help the Scottish economy and create jobs to boot.

:40:29. > :40:32.Bruce asks an excellent question... LAUGHTER

:40:33. > :40:36.He highlights exactly what people out there want to hear and want to

:40:37. > :40:41.know. They want to know what the benefits of independence are to

:40:42. > :40:46.them, to their families, to their communities. This child care

:40:47. > :40:50.proposal is one that would benefit families the length and breadth of

:40:51. > :40:53.this country. It would give our youngest people, our children, the

:40:54. > :40:57.best start in life. It would give parents, in particular women, the

:40:58. > :41:01.opportunities that many of them are priced out of just now because of

:41:02. > :41:05.the prohibitive costs of child care, the opportunity to participate in

:41:06. > :41:11.the workforce. It would grow the economy and increase revenues as

:41:12. > :41:15.well, allowing us to make that policy affordable and sustainable.

:41:16. > :41:19.Into the bargain, the fact of delivering this kind of

:41:20. > :41:23.transformational policy would create 35,000 new jobs, the people needed

:41:24. > :41:27.to look after the children. This is the kind of ambitious policy that I

:41:28. > :41:32.believe will galvanise this campaign and be at the heart of the deaf bait

:41:33. > :41:43.as we move forward -- of the debate, as we move to the referendum. Does

:41:44. > :41:46.the Deputy First Minister accept that the people of England, Wales

:41:47. > :41:52.and Northern Ireland have a right to say no to a eurozone-style currency

:41:53. > :41:55.union, and is she hearing the many voices from England, Wales and

:41:56. > :42:00.Northern Ireland who are saying it is seriously unlikely? No, I

:42:01. > :42:04.actually hear no politicians say that because they are in a campaign

:42:05. > :42:09.trying to persuade people to vote no, so it hardly comes as a

:42:10. > :42:13.surprise. Can I say to Drew, we are not talking about a eurozone-style

:42:14. > :42:18.shared currency. Scotland an the rest of the UK has been described by

:42:19. > :42:23.a range of eminent experts as an optimal currency zone, unlike the

:42:24. > :42:27.eurozone, where the richest parts are Germany and the poorest parts of

:42:28. > :42:32.Greece are coexisting within a currency. The reason why I believe

:42:33. > :42:36.it's the right policy are not just because it's in the be interests of

:42:37. > :42:39.Scotland, but because it's in the best interests of people in the

:42:40. > :42:42.other parts of the UK. Perhaps those on the other side of the argument

:42:43. > :42:46.would care to take the time to explain why on earth a Westminster

:42:47. > :42:50.Government would want to see to its own businesses that export into

:42:51. > :42:54.Scotland, no, no, Scotland wants to stay in our currency with you, but

:42:55. > :42:58.we're going to force you into the transaction costs and lost jobs that

:42:59. > :43:01.would come from having a separate currency. Why would the Westminster

:43:02. > :43:05.Government want to take out of balance of payments the ?40 billion

:43:06. > :43:09.that flow from oil and gas exports. This is a common sense, rational,

:43:10. > :43:10.reasonable proposition. That's perhaps why the 'No' campaign don't

:43:11. > :43:25.recognise it. I found it difficult to hear there.

:43:26. > :43:30.As we know, UK Civil Service jobs continue to be cut by Westminster in

:43:31. > :43:35.contrast to Scottish Government policy of no compulsory

:43:36. > :43:39.redundancies. This affects the east kill bride constituency, may I ask

:43:40. > :43:49.what Scotland's future says about improving job security? Can I refer

:43:50. > :43:52.you to two parts of the white paper, page 365 and part four of the white

:43:53. > :43:56.paper which details some of the workforce issues in terms of the

:43:57. > :43:59.transfer of Civil Service and public service employees from UK Government

:44:00. > :44:05.employment into Scottish Government employment, where they would get the

:44:06. > :44:10.benefit of the no compulsory redundancy policy that we have. She

:44:11. > :44:13.might with her constituency responsibilities be interested in

:44:14. > :44:19.page 49 of the document which is in part one, where it makes clear that

:44:20. > :44:23.Scotland's military HQ would be at Faslane but with delivery functions

:44:24. > :44:28.in east kill bride. I'm sure she will find that of interest. I like

:44:29. > :44:32.optimism as the rest deputy First Minister, but she must be the only

:44:33. > :44:37.person on the planet who believes that there is not one single down

:44:38. > :44:43.side to independence worth mentioning in the white paper. And

:44:44. > :44:47.that dozens of other countries and organisations agree to every single

:44:48. > :44:55.demand of hers, when the currency on NATO, on the EU and so much more.

:44:56. > :44:58.Yet, if she is wrong, this is the gamble she has taken. It's the

:44:59. > :45:04.gamble that Scotland will pay the price for. One area in which she is

:45:05. > :45:09.definitely wrong is on child care. The Scottish Government has the

:45:10. > :45:15.worst child care arrangements in the British Isles. And yet, the Deputy

:45:16. > :45:18.First Minister has said that she is delaying the introduction of early

:45:19. > :45:23.education for two-year-olds until after the referendum. Even though it

:45:24. > :45:27.is already -- it has already been delivered with the powers in

:45:28. > :45:34.England, she has the powers now - why the delay? Firstly, can I say in

:45:35. > :45:38.response to the first part of the question, we, like every other

:45:39. > :45:43.country in the world, live in a world that is at times difficult,

:45:44. > :45:46.challenging, and uncertain. But I happen to believe that just as this

:45:47. > :45:49.is true for every other independent country in the world, in that

:45:50. > :45:53.uncertain world it's always better to be in the driving seat of your

:45:54. > :45:57.own destiny than leave decisions to be taken elsewhere. That's why I

:45:58. > :46:01.believe that in any circumstances it is better to be independent.

:46:02. > :46:06.Secondly, on the currency union, there were two words I forgot to use

:46:07. > :46:11.in describing a currency union. Those two words were logical and

:46:12. > :46:15.desirable. These aren't actually my words, these are the words of

:46:16. > :46:19.Alistair Darling, when he was telling the truth about it before

:46:20. > :46:23.the no campaign got hold of him and made him change his tune. In respect

:46:24. > :46:26.of child care, you are just wrong about the Scottish Government's

:46:27. > :46:29.child care position. I seem to recall it was his UK leader Nick

:46:30. > :46:32.Clegg, the deputy prime minister of the UK Government, that at one point

:46:33. > :46:36.was forced to speak out against the child care policy of his own

:46:37. > :46:40.Government. We are making progressive changes to the provision

:46:41. > :46:44.of child care but we want to transform the provision of child

:46:45. > :46:48.care and if he has been listening to this session so far, as I am sure he

:46:49. > :46:51.has, he will know why we need the powers of independence to do that so

:46:52. > :46:55.that we can provide that policy, grow revenues and allow those

:46:56. > :46:57.revenues to make that policy sustainable and affordable. I

:46:58. > :47:03.believe this is the policy that will capture the imagination of people

:47:04. > :47:06.around Scotland and given his creditable track record on this

:47:07. > :47:14.issue, I think he will be better advised to get behind it.

:47:15. > :47:19.Will the Deputy First Minister tell us what discussions she has had with

:47:20. > :47:24.her opposite numbers at Westminster in relation to the delivery of

:47:25. > :47:32.national security, the document indicates gft's first responsibility

:47:33. > :47:35.to renekt MI5, MI6, GCHQ and national cyber threats with her

:47:36. > :47:42.security and intelligence agency and give us confidence of her costings.

:47:43. > :47:45.Well, I know Graham with his interest and his expertise on these

:47:46. > :47:52.issues will be interested to read the document from page 261 onwards

:47:53. > :47:54.which sets out the proposals around security and intelligence, including

:47:55. > :48:00.the establishment of a new security and intelligence agency. On the

:48:01. > :48:03.issue of discussions with Westminster counterparts, I am glad

:48:04. > :48:07.he raised this issue, because I said repeatedly and I will say again

:48:08. > :48:11.today, I would welcome discussions with UK counterparts about how we do

:48:12. > :48:17.take forward negotiations in the event of a yes vote next year, now I

:48:18. > :48:21.am not expecting we prenegotiate the settlement, but it would be in

:48:22. > :48:23.everybody's interests to have sensible discussions. The position

:48:24. > :48:26.of the Westminster Government is they're not prepared to have those

:48:27. > :48:28.discussions. If Graeme Pearson wants to take the matter up with the

:48:29. > :48:33.Westminster Government and encourage them to change their tune I would be

:48:34. > :48:38.happy for him to do so and I, the Government our entire civil service

:48:39. > :48:43.are at the disposal to sit down and talk about these issues any time

:48:44. > :48:47.they like. Does the Deputy First Minister agree that at a time when

:48:48. > :48:51.the UK Government is contemplating UK withdrawal from the EU and

:48:52. > :48:55.Scotland's future inside the EU can only be guaranteed by independence

:48:56. > :48:57.and under any scenario an independent Scottish Government

:48:58. > :49:02.taking its place at EU top table is the only way of ensuring Scotland's

:49:03. > :49:08.best interests are represented in EU legislative and policy decisions?

:49:09. > :49:13.Well, two points in response to that question which I think is an

:49:14. > :49:16.absolutely vital question in terms of Scotland's representation within

:49:17. > :49:20.the European Union. Our interest would be much better served by

:49:21. > :49:23.independent membership of the European Union and anybody who

:49:24. > :49:27.doubts that would only need to speak to Richard Lockhead about the

:49:28. > :49:32.disgraceful situation around agriculture payments over the last

:49:33. > :49:36.few weeks when Scotland's interests were not served by the UK

:49:37. > :49:39.Government. The second point is absolutely the correct one, the risk

:49:40. > :49:43.to Scotland's membership of the European Union is not independence,

:49:44. > :49:45.the risk is the in-out referendum being proposed by David Cameron and

:49:46. > :49:49.the Conservatives and the UK Government. That is the risk. If

:49:50. > :49:53.Scotland doesn't become independent there is a very real risk that in

:49:54. > :49:57.that referendum the UK as a whole votes to come out, Scotland votes to

:49:58. > :50:01.stay in and we get taken out of the European Union against our will with

:50:02. > :50:05.all of the serious implications for our economy. That's the risk to

:50:06. > :50:11.Scotland and that's one of the many reasons we should vote yes in the

:50:12. > :50:15.referendum. The Deputy First Minister will know that pensions

:50:16. > :50:18.make up about 40% of the social security budget but not one word

:50:19. > :50:23.about pensions in the statement. Is it because she has no answers, no

:50:24. > :50:27.answers on how cross-border pension schemes will be funded? No answer to

:50:28. > :50:31.the fact that pensions will cost more in Scotland due to the

:50:32. > :50:36.population ageing faster? And no answer to the cost of pensions

:50:37. > :50:42.overall? Isn't it the case that the office for national statistics, the

:50:43. > :50:47.Institute of Fiscal Studies, the Scottish Government's own fiscal

:50:48. > :50:50.commission and even John Swinney acknowledged maintaining pensions

:50:51. > :50:55.would present a huge problem. Isn't it true that the pensioners in

:50:56. > :51:00.Scotland do face a stark choice, either believe the facts from

:51:01. > :51:05.experts or believe the assertions from the SNP Well, it's only been a

:51:06. > :51:08.few hours since the document was published and she may not have had

:51:09. > :51:13.time to read it yet but Wye recommend to her pages 138 onwards

:51:14. > :51:18.which sets out in detail the position around pensions. Let me

:51:19. > :51:21.give her highlights. Pensioners receive pensions as now on time and

:51:22. > :51:26.in full, accrued rights will be honoured. Planned reforms will be

:51:27. > :51:33.rolled out. Triple lock will be guaranteed for the first term of an

:51:34. > :51:40.independent. Let me make a couple of other points about pensions. Right

:51:41. > :51:46.now we pay a smaller proportion of our GDP on social protection,

:51:47. > :51:50.including things like pensions we start from a stronger more

:51:51. > :51:53.affordable position. We have an ageing population. We are not unique

:51:54. > :51:57.in that. Actually, it's a good thing, it's something we should

:51:58. > :52:01.celebrate, not moan about. You can argue about whether our population,

:52:02. > :52:05.our ageing population is a more acute problem for Scotland than in

:52:06. > :52:09.other countries, actually the proportion of our population over

:52:10. > :52:14.pension age is increasing slightly lower than the UK, if you take the

:52:15. > :52:18.whole depencency ratio, it's better, if you look at the ratio just for

:52:19. > :52:25.pensioners it's slightly worse. But the key point is this, what do we do

:52:26. > :52:29.about it? The way you deal with an ageing population, the way you

:52:30. > :52:35.support an ageing population is to grow your working age population.

:52:36. > :52:38.How do you do that? You attract immigration, rather than the UK

:52:39. > :52:44.Government's policies to try to, for example, get rid of the post-study

:52:45. > :52:48.visa. You take measures to grow your economy, to create jobs, to grow tax

:52:49. > :52:53.revenues. That's how you deal with and support an ageing population and

:52:54. > :53:00.we are far better able to do it with independence than we will be as part

:53:01. > :53:03.of the Union. Does the Deputy First Minister agree

:53:04. > :53:07.that one of the biggest gains of independence is a social security

:53:08. > :53:10.system that is in line with the wishes of the people of Scotland?

:53:11. > :53:14.Can the Deputy First Minister outline what measures are set out in

:53:15. > :53:20.the White Paper to achieve this fair and prosperous future? Can I thank

:53:21. > :53:24.the member for that question. And refer him to part three, chapter

:53:25. > :53:30.four, where our proposals on welfare and social protection are set out. I

:53:31. > :53:35.do agree that the Westminster assault on our welfare state is one

:53:36. > :53:40.of the many reasons for supporting independence. Our welfare state

:53:41. > :53:43.cherished by all of us is being dismantled by the Westminster

:53:44. > :53:47.Government before our very eyes. If we want to protect it the best way

:53:48. > :53:52.to protect it is to vote yes. We set out clear policies in this White

:53:53. > :53:55.Paper. We will abolish the bedroom tax within the first year of being

:53:56. > :53:58.elected as the first Government of an independent Scotland. We will

:53:59. > :54:02.take the decision not to proceed with universal credit and personal

:54:03. > :54:06.independence payments. These are programmes mired in controversy,

:54:07. > :54:09.delayed and seriously damaging to some of the most vulnerable in our

:54:10. > :54:13.society. We will build on the work being done by the expert group on

:54:14. > :54:17.welfare to make sure we can design a social protection system that is fit

:54:18. > :54:20.for Scotland's purposes, that helps people into work but provides the

:54:21. > :54:31.decent safety net for those who can't that I believe we all want to

:54:32. > :54:36.see. On page 305 of the White Paper it says that the Scottish Government

:54:37. > :54:39.would look to establish an oil fund immediately on independence to

:54:40. > :54:46.stabilise the economy. What it doesn't say is where the money for

:54:47. > :54:59.that fund will come from. Will it come from... Order. Order. Let us

:55:00. > :55:02.hear the member. I think you will find it doesn't say where the money

:55:03. > :55:07.for that fund will come from. The question is, will it come from

:55:08. > :55:14.increased taxation? Will it come from cuts in public spending? Or, do

:55:15. > :55:20.they seriously propose, as is rather implied, do they propose to borrow

:55:21. > :55:30.the money to save in an oil fund in the world's biggest payday loan?

:55:31. > :55:40.Surely that is not the common sense so beloved of the Deputy First

:55:41. > :55:48.Minister? Well, I would point out to Iain Gray, in case he has forgotten

:55:49. > :55:51.this fact, Norway now has an oil fund of 450 billion. That's one of

:55:52. > :55:58.the very big benefits of being independent. Now, in relation to the

:55:59. > :56:02.questions, the thing is Ian Grey knows the answer because I am sure

:56:03. > :56:06.being the careful, prepared person that he is, that he has read the

:56:07. > :56:12.fiscal commission's work on the oil fund. It proposes a fund with two

:56:13. > :56:16.purposes, one to smooth the volatility of oil revenues, we would

:56:17. > :56:20.make a cautious forecast of revenues and when the actual revenues exceed

:56:21. > :56:24.that we will put the excess into an oil fund. Secondly, we would have an

:56:25. > :56:27.oil fund with the purpose of saving for future generations, something

:56:28. > :56:30.that Westminster governments over generations have failed to do and we

:56:31. > :56:36.would start paying into that when the deficit reached a point below

:56:37. > :56:40.3%. That's very, very clear. The key thing here is this, if we leave

:56:41. > :56:43.Westminster in charge then the next, however many years of our oil

:56:44. > :56:48.revenues will be squandered in the same way as the last 40 years have

:56:49. > :56:51.been, if we are independent we can steward them for the future. Yet

:56:52. > :57:02.another reason to vote yes and become independent. Whatever Alex

:57:03. > :57:05.Salmond says, an independent Scotland using the pound is not

:57:06. > :57:11.under his control. It will be under the control of a foreign country.

:57:12. > :57:15.The White Paper at page 111 concedes a possibility of, and I quote, a

:57:16. > :57:20.different arrangement. If the currency negotiations to use the

:57:21. > :57:24.pound fail, can the Deputy First Minister clarify what is the

:57:25. > :57:31.different arrangement? If the euro, the Aberdeen dollar, what is plan B?

:57:32. > :57:38.The point drawn attention to about arrangements acknowledges the fact

:57:39. > :57:44.in future - I see Patrick here, different parties might take a

:57:45. > :57:49.different view. Willie Rennie's party as recently had entry theure

:57:50. > :57:52.still as -- euro still as their preferred option. Clearly there are

:57:53. > :57:57.differences of opinion on what the best currency option is. Our view,

:57:58. > :58:00.our firm view is that a shared currency is in the best interests of

:58:01. > :58:07.Scotland and in the best interests of the UK. Wye have thought -- I

:58:08. > :58:10.would have doubt and bel Goldie whose party gave Alistair Darling

:58:11. > :58:16.such a warm standing occasion at their conference, that it's logical

:58:17. > :58:20.and desirable. Can the Deputy First Minister advise

:58:21. > :58:26.the chamber of what discussions have taken place with EU member states is

:58:27. > :58:30.to back up the statement that in order to ensure the current UK

:58:31. > :58:34.obligations and provisions apply to an independent Scotland they, I

:58:35. > :58:37.quote, necessary treaty amendments will be taken forward with the

:58:38. > :58:43.agreement of member states? In the event that the consent of EU member

:58:44. > :58:46.states has not already been obtained, does she agree that it

:58:47. > :58:51.would be more honest for the document to explore what concessions

:58:52. > :58:55.might have to be made in order to secure EU membership and can she

:58:56. > :59:01.indicate to the chamber which of the UK opt-outs she would be prepared to

:59:02. > :59:06.concede in order to ensure Scotland's membership? Well, can I

:59:07. > :59:14.say we have discussions with different EU members on a range of

:59:15. > :59:20.issues on a range of different occasions. She will be as aware as I

:59:21. > :59:25.am that no other European member state would want to be seen to say

:59:26. > :59:29.anything that could be deemed to be interfering in the domestic debate

:59:30. > :59:33.Scotland is having. This goes back to an answer earlier, we would be

:59:34. > :59:36.happy to discuss these matters with the European Commission, the

:59:37. > :59:40.commission has made clear those discussions would have to be

:59:41. > :59:46.initiated by the member state which is the UK and the UK for reasons

:59:47. > :59:52.best known to itself doesn't want to discuss these. But the question that

:59:53. > :59:56.the no campaign has to answer is why would any member of the European

:59:57. > :00:00.Union not want Scotland to continue in membership? Scotland is a

:00:01. > :00:03.contributor to the European Union in many, many different ways and it

:00:04. > :00:09.would be in the interests of Scotland and other EU members that

:00:10. > :00:13.that continued. In terms of her question about opt-outs, and I am

:00:14. > :00:17.sure she will if she hasn't already, read the detail of this in the White

:00:18. > :00:21.Paper. We are arguing for a transition on the basis of

:00:22. > :00:24.continuity of effect. We are in the asking for special arrangements to

:00:25. > :00:28.apply to Scotland. We are arguing for the same arrangements that apply

:00:29. > :00:31.to us now as part of the UK to continue when we are an independent

:00:32. > :00:36.country. Again that is a reasonable and sensible position as are all the

:00:37. > :00:45.positions laid out in this document published today. Can I ask the

:00:46. > :00:47.Deputy First Minister what analysis is carried out in the white paper as

:00:48. > :00:51.to the opportunities of independence to reverse the trend of widening

:00:52. > :00:56.inequality which has been presided over by successive Westminster

:00:57. > :01:06.governments of whatever hue, decade in and out. ? The inequality gap is

:01:07. > :01:11.again one of the reasons why we need power over the levers of social and

:01:12. > :01:15.economic policy to deal with that. I have spoken about the child care

:01:16. > :01:19.proposal, which I think we'd have -- would have a huge effect, over time,

:01:20. > :01:24.on raising attainment and dealing with the inequality. We set out

:01:25. > :01:29.proposals to ensure that the minimum wage rises at least in line with

:01:30. > :01:32.inflation. Tax credits and benefits rise in line with inflation. That's

:01:33. > :01:35.important because it stops the lowest paid in our society falling

:01:36. > :01:42.further and deeper into poverty. There's a range of measures in here,

:01:43. > :01:46.but not overnight, but over time will address that gap in Scotland

:01:47. > :01:49.and help to make our country not just wealthier but fairer as well.

:01:50. > :01:52.It's that ambition that drives everything in this white paper and

:01:53. > :02:02.our support for that independence that we seek. I would love to fund a

:02:03. > :02:07.child care revolution by scrapping the weapons of war instead of

:02:08. > :02:12.cutting other public services... Order. Even if the Better Together

:02:13. > :02:15.parties don't share the desire for the freedom to make that choice,

:02:16. > :02:20.doesn't it show the depths to which they have sunk that they describe

:02:21. > :02:23.that proposal as a child care bribe. Since when did any politician with

:02:24. > :02:33.any integrity describe public services in such a demeaning term?

:02:34. > :02:37.Can I agree 100% with Patrick Harvey on that. It is a sign of where

:02:38. > :02:41.things have come to when we don't just have Conservative politicians

:02:42. > :02:45.describing public service policies like child care, universal care, in

:02:46. > :02:49.these terms, which perhaps doesn't come as a huge surprise. But we have

:02:50. > :02:55.Labour politicians queueing up to join them in doing so. The Better

:02:56. > :03:01.Together Labour/Tory alliance which wants to hold Scotland back. I'm

:03:02. > :03:06.proud to be part of a cross-party yes campaign to wants to take

:03:07. > :03:11.Scotland forward to a better future. I'm sure the Deputy First Minister,

:03:12. > :03:15.like me, believes that Democrats across this chimer and around --

:03:16. > :03:19.chamber and around Scotland will be excited that the opportunity an

:03:20. > :03:22.independent Scotland gives for a written constitution. Given the

:03:23. > :03:26.historic and social significance of this, can I ask the deputy First

:03:27. > :03:29.Minister what thoughts have been given to make this a truly

:03:30. > :03:33.participative process with innovative forms of engagement

:03:34. > :03:42.techniques so that everyone can feel and be part of the process of

:03:43. > :03:46.writing this constitution? She raises one of the genuinely exciting

:03:47. > :03:51.opportunities of being independent, the chance to have the opportunity

:03:52. > :03:53.to design a written constitution. We are one of the only countries,

:03:54. > :03:57.certainly in Europe and the world, that doesn't have a written

:03:58. > :04:01.constitution, setting out clearly the relationship between the citizen

:04:02. > :04:04.and the state, protecting our freedoms and our rights. We've been

:04:05. > :04:08.clear as a Government the kind of things we would want to see in that

:04:09. > :04:13.written constitution - social and economic rights, a ban on nuclear

:04:14. > :04:15.weapons, for example, but this is not a written constitution that

:04:16. > :04:21.should be written by the Scottish Government. It should be one that is

:04:22. > :04:24.written from a collaborative way in part four of the white paper sets

:04:25. > :04:27.out that process. That process should be determined by the

:04:28. > :04:31.independent Scottish Parliament, elected in 2016. If we get that yes

:04:32. > :04:40.vote and become independent, I look forward to being part of, but only

:04:41. > :04:45.part of, that exciting process. Only 12 days ago, Deputy First Minister,

:04:46. > :04:49.you said ship building was dear to your heart. It was vital to the

:04:50. > :04:53.Scottish economy. 178,000 words later, can the 35 words that refer

:04:54. > :04:59.to ship building in any way at all match up to a new future or even a

:05:00. > :05:06.sustainable future? Where are the assurances, the guarantees for my

:05:07. > :05:12.constituents who work in the industry that it will have a secure

:05:13. > :05:17.future in an independent Scotland? Well, ship building is very dear to

:05:18. > :05:21.my heart, which is why I always try to avoid taking any opportunity to

:05:22. > :05:26.use it as a political football. I think ship building... Order. Is

:05:27. > :05:30.more important than that. What this white paper does is two things: It

:05:31. > :05:35.sets out in some detail, when you go through the defence part of it, it

:05:36. > :05:38.sets out what the procurement requirements will be for independent

:05:39. > :05:42.Scottish Defence Forces. It talks about something that has been talked

:05:43. > :05:47.about far too little within the Westminster system - diversification

:05:48. > :05:53.in terms of defence and the ship building industry. Of course, I will

:05:54. > :05:57.repeat what I've said previously, post independence, the Clyde will

:05:58. > :06:07.remain as it is today, the best place to build the type 26 frigates.

:06:08. > :06:11.Alistair Carmichael, I think said, article 346 of the European Union

:06:12. > :06:16.treaty somehow prevented the UK Government placing these contracts

:06:17. > :06:18.in the Clyde. He sat next to a Defence Minister at a House of

:06:19. > :06:21.Commons committee a couple of weeks ago, where the Defence Minister

:06:22. > :06:26.contradicted him and said there was nothing that provented these

:06:27. > :06:29.contracts being placed on the Clyde. They will come because it's the best

:06:30. > :06:33.place with the best people and the best facilities to build them. It

:06:34. > :06:38.would make sense, given the detail set out in here, for that in future,

:06:39. > :06:41.post independence, to be a joint procurement, joint procurement in

:06:42. > :06:47.the interests of cost effectiveness is what the UK Government goes on

:06:48. > :06:51.about all the time time . Following a yes vote, what further steps will

:06:52. > :06:58.the Scottish Government take to realise Scotland's ambition to be an

:06:59. > :07:02.active and good global citizen? In the section of the document that

:07:03. > :07:06.deals with international relations and defence it sets out in detail

:07:07. > :07:10.our commitments around international aid, just as I believe we have a

:07:11. > :07:15.responsibility to the poorest in our own country, so too as a relatively

:07:16. > :07:19.rich country do we have a responsibility to the poorest around

:07:20. > :07:24.the world. We set out here our commitment to secure and ensure the

:07:25. > :07:27.0. 7% of GNI in terms of international aid and a range of

:07:28. > :07:33.ways in which we would work with international part iners to be that

:07:34. > :07:35.good, global citizen, to help to tackle global poverty, climate

:07:36. > :07:38.change, build on the world leading work this Parliament has already

:07:39. > :07:44.done around climate change and the opportunities of independence in

:07:45. > :07:47.that are many and varied. Can I welcome the Cabinet Secretary's

:07:48. > :07:51.aspirations on child care, though I would give more emphasis to

:07:52. > :07:54.two-year-olds and do it now. But how could she deliver that...

:07:55. > :07:58.APPLAUSE How could she deliver that or any of

:07:59. > :08:01.her spending wishes with a neo-liberal economic policy, higher

:08:02. > :08:04.interest rates and a hope for the best relationship with the rest of

:08:05. > :08:08.the UK? Does she not realise how absurd the Government looks when the

:08:09. > :08:12.white paper says the Bank of England will be a lender of last resort? And

:08:13. > :08:16.does she not understand that even if there was a currency union, there

:08:17. > :08:22.would be no fiscal independence, contrary to what she said on the

:08:23. > :08:25.radio this morning? Is she not leading project wish against project

:08:26. > :08:37.reality as will become increasingly clear over the months ahead? Order.

:08:38. > :08:41.APPLAUSE I understand the vehemence with

:08:42. > :08:48.which Malcom makes his argument. Somebody who has the greatest eof --

:08:49. > :08:52.of respect for Malcom, I believe he doesn't believe it in his heart of

:08:53. > :08:55.hearts. Actually he will be inspired by this as I am. I don't know where

:08:56. > :08:56.the higher interest rates that were chucked into that question came

:08:57. > :09:07.from. I think he's perhaps been... chucked into that question came

:09:08. > :09:12.little too much. Independence ors the opportunity in Scotland to take

:09:13. > :09:16.the steps to get our economy going, that create jobs, that creates the

:09:17. > :09:21.wealth for us to share that wealth with equally and deal with the

:09:22. > :09:25.inequality that I know Malcom loathes as much as I do. I will not

:09:26. > :09:32.give up hope before 18th September next year in getting Malcom onto the

:09:33. > :09:37.yes side of this debate, where his heart lies. Can I first of all

:09:38. > :09:41.congratulate the Government on producing what I think is a very

:09:42. > :09:44.workman like document. It's going to start many of the debates, I hope,

:09:45. > :09:51.that we should be having in Scotland. Can I gently say that she

:09:52. > :09:55.shouldn't dismiss what Malcom Chisholm has just said because it's

:09:56. > :09:59.what a lot of us feel - it looks too easy. I know it's going to be

:10:00. > :10:03.difficult. That's when you get to negotiations when we talk about

:10:04. > :10:07.negotiations, shouldn't we think of tapping into all of the talent, all

:10:08. > :10:12.of the experience that there will be in Scotland after the yes vote?

:10:13. > :10:17.There are people who have been on the front benches of Cabinets, there

:10:18. > :10:20.are people who have done international negotiations, they're

:10:21. > :10:25.called Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling, but leave out one or two

:10:26. > :10:30.others. I was quite seriously, think of the whole country, not just of

:10:31. > :10:35.the Scottish National Party. I made a speech, I think, round about a

:10:36. > :10:39.year ago just now where I set out clearly that while if we get a yes

:10:40. > :10:41.vote this Government as a Democratically elected Government of

:10:42. > :10:45.Scotland would lead the negotiations, we would do so as part

:10:46. > :10:50.of a team Scotland approach. I would very much want to see people like

:10:51. > :10:54.darling Darling -- Alistair Darling, Gordon Brown, in those negotiations

:10:55. > :10:59.with us making sure that all of us on Scotland's side get the best deal

:11:00. > :11:04.for Scotland that we possibly can. I think that's a key point. We will

:11:05. > :11:07.have the yes/no debate and have it passionately over these next few

:11:08. > :11:12.months. We will be on opposite sides, those of us in this chamber.

:11:13. > :11:18.The minute Scotland votes yes, we stop being on sop sit sides. We --

:11:19. > :11:22.on opposite sides. We have the opportunity to take our country

:11:23. > :11:26.forward. I agree with the proposition just put forward. Given

:11:27. > :11:30.that women in Scotland need to worry just as much about the sticky floor

:11:31. > :11:33.than the glass ceiling, can I ask what proposals are set out in the

:11:34. > :11:36.white paper to increase female participation in the workforce and

:11:37. > :11:41.what impact these proposals would have on the economy of an

:11:42. > :11:45.independent Scotland? I've spoken at some length today about the child

:11:46. > :11:50.care proposal, which would do great things to help women participate in

:11:51. > :11:54.the workforce. We have talked about what we would try to do to increase

:11:55. > :11:58.women's representation on company and public boards and legislate for

:11:59. > :12:02.that, if necessary. Because one of the practical things that transfers

:12:03. > :12:06.from Westminster to the Scottish Parliament with independence is

:12:07. > :12:10.legal responsibility for equality issues and that is one of the,

:12:11. > :12:15.perhaps, little things that won't get the headlines in the white

:12:16. > :12:21.paper, that I think is absolutely worth supporting. That ends the

:12:22. > :12:25.statement from the Deputy First Minister.

:12:26. > :12:28.STUDIO: That was the presiding officer wrapping up the business in

:12:29. > :12:31.Parliament there. Questions and answers to the Deputy First

:12:32. > :12:35.Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. Let's stay in Edinburgh now. Our business

:12:36. > :12:38.and economy editor joins me from just outside the Parliament. Good

:12:39. > :12:44.afternoon, Douglas. Thanks very much for joining me. You've been

:12:45. > :12:50.digesting the weighty tomorrow that we have -- tomb that we have here.

:12:51. > :12:56.What are your key points, the key highlights in this document? I think

:12:57. > :13:00.overall, there are two things I'd take out of this document. One is

:13:01. > :13:03.the new stuff, discussion there about child care, clearly an

:13:04. > :13:07.important economic issue in terms of getting more people into the

:13:08. > :13:13.workforce and supporting family budgets, that's part of what is a

:13:14. > :13:18.document which shows us what the SNP wants to offer in 2016. This is a

:13:19. > :13:21.party manifesto in many ways. The will acknowledge, while they're

:13:22. > :13:25.offering this, that there will be other brands available. It's up to

:13:26. > :13:28.the Scottish voters if there's a yes vote, if they get the powers of

:13:29. > :13:33.independence, then to decide which parties they're going to trust.

:13:34. > :13:38.Maybe one party, maybe several. The other thing that really leaps out at

:13:39. > :13:40.me about this, which is partly economic, but across the range of

:13:41. > :13:45.things they're talking about, is that it's very safe, reassuring.

:13:46. > :13:50.There's no Big Sur prizes. They had -- there's no big surprises. This is

:13:51. > :13:57.a steady progress towards the goal they set themselves. It is safe and

:13:58. > :14:00.quite small "c" conservative in that the offers in terms of independence

:14:01. > :14:03.are not to change things that people like, often to protect things that

:14:04. > :14:07.have been achieved through Britain and which may be getting changed by

:14:08. > :14:13.more radical action at Westminster. No change in what kind of currency

:14:14. > :14:18.we might be using, but criticism from opposition MSPs that there's no

:14:19. > :14:24.Plan B if the UK Government says an independent Scotland can't use

:14:25. > :14:26.sterling. Indeed. You had to sympathise with the ministers

:14:27. > :14:30.putting forward this argument, because if they conceded to a Plan

:14:31. > :14:33.B, if they said well, here's another option that they've got, immediately

:14:34. > :14:37.people would be paying attention to that, if it got the to the stage

:14:38. > :14:41.where the markets were particularly interested in this at the stage of

:14:42. > :14:46.achieving ind that level of uncertainty and weakness would be

:14:47. > :14:50.seized upon. It would be a dangerous thing to do. While we're debating

:14:51. > :14:53.whether it's the right road to go down, this is the issue, whether in

:14:54. > :14:57.the chamber or press conference, it's the issue that dominates. It's

:14:58. > :15:02.probably the most difficult issue that the SNP ministers face. It's an

:15:03. > :15:07.issue on which others within the yes Scotland campaign are uncomfortable.

:15:08. > :15:14.You heard from Margo McDonald. She's no fan of sticking with sterling. It

:15:15. > :15:19.speaks to the issue of negotiating, that the SNP have set out things

:15:20. > :15:24.that will happen or should happen because it's telling the UK what

:15:25. > :15:28.interests it should be. The response coming back from the UK is that you

:15:29. > :15:31.can't be so sure. The interests of the rest of the UK may be very

:15:32. > :15:35.different. There will be push back, even if you get pefrg you want, EU

:15:36. > :15:40.membership and the currency union and so many deals they want to

:15:41. > :15:47.strike, if you get that, there may be conditions attached which you may

:15:48. > :15:51.not like. Let's pick up on some of those points with our two

:15:52. > :16:09.commentators here for the afternoon, Lucy Adams from The Herald and Dr

:16:10. > :16:15.Nicola McEwen from Edinburgh University. This is the most hotly

:16:16. > :16:21.anticipated document, he said, since the tablets of stone came down from

:16:22. > :16:23.Mount Sinai, not sure if it's quite that exciting but people have been

:16:24. > :16:27.waiting for this for a long time. We already knew a lot of the content

:16:28. > :16:32.but the presentation this morning was obviously very slick. We had

:16:33. > :16:36.journalists from around the UK putting very poignant questions to

:16:37. > :16:40.Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon. What came across strongly is she

:16:41. > :16:45.knows this document back-to-back and she really, really believes in it. I

:16:46. > :16:48.think she's, across very, very well and consistently across the day.

:16:49. > :16:52.Obviously we have the headline-grabbing features which is

:16:53. > :16:59.that the child care and the fact they're talking about giving people,

:17:00. > :17:03.I think it's 38 hours a week - sorry 30 hours a week for 38 weeks of the

:17:04. > :17:06.year and initially that will be for three-year-olds and four-year-olds,

:17:07. > :17:11.but also saying that will be for every child from the age of one

:17:12. > :17:15.upwards. It's obviously a fairly strident and interesting view. We

:17:16. > :17:19.don't know the detail of that and we have not had the costings. The

:17:20. > :17:24.question was put to her in the chamber, how much will this cost? We

:17:25. > :17:28.don't know. She didn't lay that out. Now, we have been looking at one of

:17:29. > :17:32.the key points there. Let's look at the graphic now with some of the

:17:33. > :17:38.other key points being highlighted. Lucy mentioned that, 30 hours of

:17:39. > :17:42.childcare per week. The housing benefit reform to be

:17:43. > :17:48.abolished and a halt to the rollout of universal credit. That's another

:17:49. > :17:53.kind of key point. It is. Similar to child care, it's

:17:54. > :17:57.another one that's the Deputy First Minister's stamp all over it, in a

:17:58. > :18:01.sense. This is not just about the economy. It's not just about

:18:02. > :18:04.defence, we may talk about that in a moment, it's also about society, the

:18:05. > :18:07.future of Scotland. There is a strong social element running

:18:08. > :18:11.throughout the document. I think linked to that is the idea of a

:18:12. > :18:16.different kind of welfare state, both in terms of child care and also

:18:17. > :18:20.in terms of a system of social protection. Now the welfare reform

:18:21. > :18:25.agenda of the UK Government has been extremely unpopular in a variety of

:18:26. > :18:29.quarters, affecting lots of vulnerable groups. I think the

:18:30. > :18:37.deputy firs Minister is -- First Minister is trying to capitalise on

:18:38. > :18:40.that. Let's look at the other point on the graphic.

:18:41. > :18:44.Triedent nuclear weapons removed within the first parliament. Lucy,

:18:45. > :18:50.you were checking out some of the detail on that. That gives us a

:18:51. > :18:54.time-scale of 2016-2021 probably. Which is a much shorter time-scale

:18:55. > :18:58.than we actually anticipated. The recent discussions talked about it

:18:59. > :19:01.being ten years, whereas obviously this brings it forward quite

:19:02. > :19:06.considerably. Whether it is presented in this way as a

:19:07. > :19:11.bargaining tool, obviously the document itself makes a lot of very

:19:12. > :19:14.bold assertions which some will see as assumptions. It says yes, the

:19:15. > :19:20.Bank of England will be the bank, yes, sterling will be the currency.

:19:21. > :19:25.Whereas obviously the UK as a whole is saying, and we have already

:19:26. > :19:30.comments from Alistair Darling and others saying this is not the case.

:19:31. > :19:32.If triedent is going to be a bargaining tool perhaps that's why

:19:33. > :19:37.they've brought that date forward, I am not sure. The anticipation was

:19:38. > :19:45.there would be a longer lead-up for that movement of it. Nicola, bold

:19:46. > :19:49.assertions. Douglas was teasing that point out too, in the document

:19:50. > :19:55.things will happen or should happen. It does seem definite, doesn't it?

:19:56. > :19:58.Most people might see it as the first stage in negotiations. Yes, it

:19:59. > :20:02.can be quite difficult to know which tone to strike I guess, if there was

:20:03. > :20:09.doubt in here then that would be picked up on and used, as well.

:20:10. > :20:14.There's a lot in here about the shared arrangements, not just on big

:20:15. > :20:18.ticket items like a currency, but a host of things where there's

:20:19. > :20:25.envisaged to be joint ventures with the BBC, for example. Or continuity

:20:26. > :20:27.of the Civil Aviation Authority or the National Lottery, all these

:20:28. > :20:33.things would require an agreement to be put in place, not just for a

:20:34. > :20:36.transition, but for long term arrangements, too. That's all

:20:37. > :20:39.subject to negotiation and agreement. What do you think about

:20:40. > :20:43.that? I think that the whole document as we have said is based on

:20:44. > :20:48.those assertions and I think that is going to be what is argued about

:20:49. > :20:54.over the next ten months. UK has to enter into these negotiations but it

:20:55. > :20:57.doesn't necessarily have to agree to everything put forward in this

:20:58. > :21:01.document. The currency is the biggest - one of the biggest issues

:21:02. > :21:06.which is going to go on and on. We know that this document there is no

:21:07. > :21:10.plan B. That's quite right, otherwise everyone would have leapt

:21:11. > :21:13.on that. It's up for negotiation. It's a bold statement. One of the

:21:14. > :21:18.things picked up on that was interesting, is that it doesn't

:21:19. > :21:21.necessarily point to the fact that this is going to be very difficult.

:21:22. > :21:25.It's going to be a struggle. It's not just about the fact that it's a

:21:26. > :21:41.decision which happens on September 18th, it's what happens after that.

:21:42. > :21:44.From overseas embassies, to the BBC and different things We don't know

:21:45. > :21:57.how negotiations will go at this stage. That will be the interesting

:21:58. > :22:01.next stage. OK. What do you think ordinary voters might make of this?

:22:02. > :22:11.It's very weighty. And it's very long. But I find it quite accessible

:22:12. > :22:16.It has downsides in some detail is perhaps lacking in some proposals

:22:17. > :22:20.around costings, for example. I am not sure how many people will invest

:22:21. > :22:28.in reading the entire document but I am sure there will be summaries

:22:29. > :22:32.available. How will ordinary voters deal with this? Does it change the

:22:33. > :22:37.terms of the debate now that we have a lot of these answers laid out for

:22:38. > :22:41.us? It lays out the answers but there are already a huge number of

:22:42. > :22:44.people who have very strongly entrenched opinions on these

:22:45. > :22:48.different things. Many of these areas have already been laid out in

:22:49. > :22:52.the media and the public domain. Already today we have seen on

:22:53. > :22:56.Twitter there is a sort of flurry of excitement about the paper and some

:22:57. > :22:59.of the different aspects and details of it. But there is again a lot of

:23:00. > :23:04.disagreement because people are saying this is from the SNP, how do

:23:05. > :23:08.I know that I can actually trust this? People are asking for agreed

:23:09. > :23:12.evidence, rather than a paper from one side or the other side.

:23:13. > :23:16.Something in the middle that you can take home and say I know that is a

:23:17. > :23:19.fact. But obviously as we know this is about things that will happen in

:23:20. > :23:27.future, there will always be a level of uncertainty. That's what the

:23:28. > :23:30.public are crying out for, they want impartial facts presented to them.

:23:31. > :23:34.The academic community are doing their best to provide that and so

:23:35. > :23:39.there's a lot of evidence out there, there's a lot of comparative

:23:40. > :23:44.examples out there. Sometimes that's our best guide, we can't predict the

:23:45. > :23:48.future, but we can look elsewhere to see how things work in practice. One

:23:49. > :23:54.of the things I wanted to mention was around the child care emphasis,

:23:55. > :23:56.Nicola Sturgeon says it's a transformational expansion of child

:23:57. > :24:01.care, one of the interesting things to see is whether it has a

:24:02. > :24:05.transformational impact on how female voters intend to vote. There

:24:06. > :24:08.is a huge gender imbalance in how people will say they will vote in

:24:09. > :24:13.the referendum, men are far more likely to vote yes than are women at

:24:14. > :24:18.the moment. One suspects there's a little bit of an appeal to the

:24:19. > :24:23.female voter in this document. That's a key point, trying to

:24:24. > :24:26.attract these female voters to the yes cause. Absolutely. We knew they

:24:27. > :24:29.were going to try to do that. Obviously, Nicola Sturgeon is a

:24:30. > :24:33.female minister, that is the first part of the presentation. The

:24:34. > :24:37.question is what will independence deliver for me? That's one of the

:24:38. > :24:41.questions in the paper. The first part of that is free child care.

:24:42. > :24:46.They talk about it being transformational, but will it

:24:47. > :24:50.deliver. Thank you both. Let's go straight back to Holyrood now and

:24:51. > :24:54.speak to the Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. She has made her

:24:55. > :24:57.way from the chamber to our position outside Holyrood. Thank you very

:24:58. > :25:05.much for joining me so quickly from the Parliament. Now, we have this

:25:06. > :25:09.weighty tomb here. It's an important document, landmark document, as you

:25:10. > :25:15.say. Is it really just an aspirational wish list? No, I

:25:16. > :25:17.believe it sets out clearly the benefits of independence, the

:25:18. > :25:21.opportunities for individuals, families, communities around

:25:22. > :25:24.Scotland. It sets out some very hard practical detail about the

:25:25. > :25:29.transition from a yes vote to becoming an independent country and

:25:30. > :25:34.it answers a range of very detailed questions, 650 in all. Yes, there

:25:35. > :25:38.are issues that will require negotiation. On these we set out the

:25:39. > :25:40.common sense, reasonable, rational positions that are in the best

:25:41. > :25:45.interests of Scotland and also in the best interests of the UK. This

:25:46. > :25:49.is undoubtedly the most detailed blueprint for the independence of a

:25:50. > :25:52.country that has ever been published. We're the best prepared

:25:53. > :25:56.and equipped country to become independent and I think this will

:25:57. > :26:01.change the dynamic of the debate. The challenge now to the no side is

:26:02. > :26:05.where is your equivalent? The key new fact is the provision of child

:26:06. > :26:10.care under independence. How much will that cost? I don't think you

:26:11. > :26:13.can have answered that in Parliament. How much will it cost

:26:14. > :26:17.and are you doing this to attract female voters? Well, I did answer it

:26:18. > :26:21.in Parliament. I answered it at the press conference this morning. We

:26:22. > :26:26.estimate, we have set out a staged George Bush yip towards the end --

:26:27. > :26:30.staged journey towards the end point of this policy, by the end of the

:26:31. > :26:34.first independent Scottish Parliament that cost would rise to

:26:35. > :26:38.?600 million a year. But the key point of this policy is yes, it will

:26:39. > :26:43.make sure our children get the best start in life, but it's also and

:26:44. > :26:47.crucially, it's about increasing female participation in the

:26:48. > :26:50.workforce. If we increase our female participation in the labour market

:26:51. > :26:54.to bring it to the same level of Sweden, for example, we would

:26:55. > :26:59.increase tax revenues by p ?00 million a year -- ?700 million a

:27:00. > :27:03.year. We need to make sure we have access to the revenue benefits of

:27:04. > :27:06.this policy to make it sustainable in the long-term. That's why we need

:27:07. > :27:09.independence to deliver it. It's the kind of issue that people out there

:27:10. > :27:14.want to hear. What will independence mean for me? What are the benefits

:27:15. > :27:19.of independence? I think this one, I know this one has massive benefits

:27:20. > :27:25.for people, particularly mothers. We keep hearing about Sweden and the

:27:26. > :27:27.Nordic model and so on, if you saw Alan Little's excellent documentary

:27:28. > :27:33.last night about Sweden, two thirds tax rate there to pay for the child

:27:34. > :27:38.care, and you seem to have laid out some aspirational, low-tax,

:27:39. > :27:44.high-spend kind of Scotland. Well, first, we aspire in many ways to be

:27:45. > :27:48.like other small comparable European countries. Scotland is not any of

:27:49. > :27:51.these other countries. We have to chart our own course. We learn

:27:52. > :27:55.lessons where we think it's best to learn them from. The

:27:56. > :28:00.characterisation of the white paper is plainly wrong. In part two of the

:28:01. > :28:04.document it sets out in great detail the fiscal position that we would

:28:05. > :28:07.inherit at the point of independence. It sets out clearly

:28:08. > :28:13.some of the savings we would seek to make, ?500 million on defence

:28:14. > :28:16.spending, for example. It sets out what our early priorities would be

:28:17. > :28:20.and how we will deliver those priorities within sound public

:28:21. > :28:24.finances. We are a Government, after all, a devolves Government,

:28:25. > :28:28.admittedly, that has delivered its commitments within balanced budgets.

:28:29. > :28:33.Now we have to deliver balanced budgets, but nevertheless, we have

:28:34. > :28:39.exercised the fiscal dis-Palestinian. It's that --

:28:40. > :28:42.discipline. It's that we would exercise in an independent

:28:43. > :28:46.Government. These are policies that are important for their own sake and

:28:47. > :28:50.also vital to get our economy growing faster, because we've got

:28:51. > :28:54.big challenges that will be inherited from the Westminster

:28:55. > :28:56.system of Government, debt, low growth and we need to get our

:28:57. > :29:00.economy growing in order to tackle these as well as deal with some of

:29:01. > :29:05.the other issues and get our economy to a point where it's fairer and

:29:06. > :29:10.wealthier. If we stay on the economy and finances, let's look at

:29:11. > :29:15.currency. No Plan B laid out if an independent Scotland cannot use the

:29:16. > :29:18.pound. We were hearing from the Scottish Secretary at the weekend

:29:19. > :29:22.that your plan was unworkable. What's the plan if an independent

:29:23. > :29:25.Scotland is not allowed to use the pound? I've answered this question

:29:26. > :29:29.several times today. I've answered it several times in the previous

:29:30. > :29:33.weeks and months. We are arguing a proposition on currency that we

:29:34. > :29:35.believe to be the right one. It's in the best interests of Scotland and

:29:36. > :29:39.for the reasons I set out in Parliament, it's the in the best

:29:40. > :29:42.interests of the rest of the UK because of our trading relationship,

:29:43. > :29:45.because of the substantial contribution Scotland makes to the

:29:46. > :29:49.UK's balance of payments. Of course, we would have a negotiation around

:29:50. > :29:54.assets and liabilities. The pound is every bit as much ours as the rest

:29:55. > :29:57.of the UK's. I understand that Alistair Carmichael and Alistair

:29:58. > :30:00.Darling are going to say at this stage, no, that's impossible. We

:30:01. > :30:05.can't do that. Although, interestingly, neither of them rule

:30:06. > :30:08.it out, because I think they faux how sensible -- they know how

:30:09. > :30:14.sensible it is. After we vote yes, the situation changes. We have two

:30:15. > :30:17.governments negotiating in the best interests of the people of Scotland

:30:18. > :30:21.and the rest of the UK. Alistair Darling described the currency union

:30:22. > :30:24.as logical and desirable. These are the words he used before he got into

:30:25. > :30:29.the heat of the no campaign and decided to change his tune. A very

:30:30. > :30:35.busy d for you. Thank you very much for joining us.

:30:36. > :30:43.Let's go back to our commentators here. A difintive statement on how

:30:44. > :30:46.much child care would cost. Yeah, I think it's great to get that answer

:30:47. > :30:50.and know that they, obviously England, Wales knew they would have

:30:51. > :30:53.priced that. The question is where is that money going to come from?

:30:54. > :30:57.She's talking about the fact that it will be 500 million less spent on

:30:58. > :31:02.defence. We know that they're wanting to scrap Trident and the

:31:03. > :31:07.costs of astronomical. She's pin pointing savings and they've said

:31:08. > :31:11.that once they can get that female workforce in place then there will

:31:12. > :31:17.be tax revenue from that and they're talking about an extra 35,000 people

:31:18. > :31:21.employed in order to be the child care professionals, to look after

:31:22. > :31:27.those children. I think that helps to clear up those different areas.

:31:28. > :31:32.Also, she makes a good point that this is now the SNP, the Scottish

:31:33. > :31:37.Government, this is them laying out their tall stall -- stall. What do

:31:38. > :31:43.we have from the other side? Staying with child care, alluded to the

:31:44. > :31:47.Nordic model, what we're seeing from Sweden, but it's a very high tax

:31:48. > :31:51.rate there to pay for that. I was putting that point to Nicola

:31:52. > :31:58.Sturgeon. Ambitions or aspirations to have a Nordic-type Welfare State,

:31:59. > :32:03.but we have seen plans to cut taxes. Good rates of corporation tax and so

:32:04. > :32:06.on. Yeah, I think the Deputy First Minister made a Valid Point that you

:32:07. > :32:10.can be inspired by other countries, you can learn and transfer some

:32:11. > :32:15.policies from there, but you have to adapt it to circumstances in the

:32:16. > :32:18.context here in Scotland. One of the things that is interesting about the

:32:19. > :32:23.Nordic and perhaps, particularly the Swedish system of child care, is

:32:24. > :32:27.that it is founded on an assumption that women will be in the work

:32:28. > :32:31.place. There's an implicit assumption in the document that you

:32:32. > :32:35.need the tax revenues from women in the work place in order to fund

:32:36. > :32:40.child care. That raise issues about how soft an obligation there would

:32:41. > :32:43.be on women to enter the work place. Would they be encouraged or given

:32:44. > :32:47.the opportunity or helped, or would they be expected to take part in the

:32:48. > :32:53.labour market. That's a slightly different policy. How Lucy, we were

:32:54. > :32:55.hoping to hear from Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Scottish

:32:56. > :32:58.Conservatives, representing Better Together. She's not been able to

:32:59. > :33:05.make it to our live point outside Holyrood. How are they going to deal

:33:06. > :33:08.with the campaign now? What's their strategy for the Better Together

:33:09. > :33:12.side now that we've got this document? We know that in the longer

:33:13. > :33:16.term, in terms of the next ten months, we know that they are

:33:17. > :33:20.looking at a September 19th strategy. So if Scotland votes no,

:33:21. > :33:26.this is what we will do in terms of enhanced powers. I think we had Lord

:33:27. > :33:30.Purvis talking about that last week in terms of here are going to be the

:33:31. > :33:36.inducements - if you vote no, we will still give you additional

:33:37. > :33:40.tax-raising powers. We will give you more respect as your own country, as

:33:41. > :33:43.your own people without going the whole hog in terms of independence.

:33:44. > :33:50.Certainly, we know that's going on behind-the-scenes. We've had a

:33:51. > :33:54.number of papers week by week in terms of science, in terms of the

:33:55. > :33:58.economy, of why Scotland should not vote for independence and why it

:33:59. > :34:04.should remain part of the UK. There will be more of that. Just briefly,

:34:05. > :34:07.Alistair Carmichael, the Scottish Secretary, that point was put to

:34:08. > :34:13.him, saying you've been too negative. He said no, we've put out

:34:14. > :34:17.positive case -- some positive case for staying in the union. How does

:34:18. > :34:20.he take the debate on? It will be interesting to see. One of the

:34:21. > :34:25.things that we ought to see a little bit more of is a bit more scrutiny

:34:26. > :34:30.of the other side, in a sense. Because we've talked a lot about so

:34:31. > :34:34.much of this would be negotiated and agreed and we don't know whether or

:34:35. > :34:37.not it would be in the interests of the rest of the UK or the UK

:34:38. > :34:40.Government to agree. The Scottish Government cannot say what would be

:34:41. > :34:46.in the UK estate agency interest really, but they can, and we ought

:34:47. > :34:50.to be asking them a little bit more. There's doubts raised about currency

:34:51. > :34:57.unions and so on. But nothing really definite. I think we need a little

:34:58. > :35:01.bit more definite for the voters. Well, thank you both very much for

:35:02. > :35:06.joining me here. Thanks for your company this afternoon. That's all

:35:07. > :35:10.from us this afternoon. We're back tomorrow at 2. 30pm, with our

:35:11. > :35:15.regular Politics Scotland programme. For more on today's events, be sure

:35:16. > :35:18.to catch a special one-hour edition of Reporting Scotland on BBC One

:35:19. > :35:24.this evening at 6. 30pm. There will be full coverage on the white paper

:35:25. > :35:28.on independence, the latest reaction from the political spectrum and

:35:29. > :35:29.expert analysis for what it means for us. That's it. See you tomorrow.

:35:30. > :35:35.Bye-bye.