:00:20. > :00:21.Good afternoon and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:22. > :00:26.The Scottish Liberal Democrats claim it would save
:00:27. > :00:33.And David Cameron will visit Aberdeen tomorrow in an effort
:00:34. > :00:40.And here at Westminster the row over Google's tax affairs continues.
:00:41. > :00:49.The Liberal Democrats have announced proposals to boost funding
:00:50. > :00:52.for education by adding a penny to income tax.
:00:53. > :00:56.The party says the policy would allow increased spending
:00:57. > :01:02.Our political correspondent Andrew Kerr is at the Scottish Parliament
:01:03. > :01:19.What are they hoping to gain by this Good afternoon from Hollywood. --
:01:20. > :01:24.Holyrood. We announced this policy this morning. ?475 million to be
:01:25. > :01:30.invested in the Scottish education system by raising the Scottish rate
:01:31. > :01:34.of income tax I 1p for each band. The parliament has that power just
:01:35. > :01:39.now. What do they hope to gain quiz mike the Lib Dems say that
:01:40. > :01:42.investment is needed in Scottish education. Willie Rennie is critical
:01:43. > :01:49.of what he says as Scottish Government cuts. He says the 475
:01:50. > :01:55.million would be invested in early learning and the pupil premium to
:01:56. > :01:58.help the poorest of pupils in cutting the council budgets that
:01:59. > :02:02.have been cut by the Scottish Government. He was a reversal of
:02:03. > :02:07.those cuts. He once a reversal of the cuts in decline of college
:02:08. > :02:11.places too. That is what he is saying at the moment. He is laying
:02:12. > :02:16.down the gauntlet of the SNP because that is the interesting thing about
:02:17. > :02:19.this, the Lib Dems don't have much of a chance in the Scottish
:02:20. > :02:26.Parliamentary elections so here's laying down the gauntlet. The Lib
:02:27. > :02:32.Dems had this policy before, we have been here before. When it comes to
:02:33. > :02:38.the people of Scotland, what will they make of this? We have been here
:02:39. > :02:45.before back in 1999, that didn't go down too well. I presume education
:02:46. > :02:50.is a big issue for all parties but it is interesting because each time
:02:51. > :02:54.round some party rather thinks telling people the tax is critical
:02:55. > :02:59.is a sure-fire vote winner but I'm not sure there is much evidence
:03:00. > :03:06.there is. That is true. It didn't work for the SNP back in 1999 but
:03:07. > :03:10.the Lib Dems say, look what they did in the UK Coalition Government. They
:03:11. > :03:19.raised the tax threshold so people are paying less tax just now. They
:03:20. > :03:22.are saying 1p is a viable investment in Scottish education. The education
:03:23. > :03:28.will be debated later on here at Holyrood. They are investing ?5
:03:29. > :03:33.billion in education, there is ?100 million attainment fund to help
:03:34. > :03:38.those who are of pupils and that is what Nicola Sturgeon, that is her
:03:39. > :03:43.number one priority. The Scottish Conservatives say this is a lurch to
:03:44. > :03:47.the left from the Liberal Democrats and are not approving of this
:03:48. > :03:51.policy. It does make the Holyrood campaign interesting because getting
:03:52. > :04:00.policies coming forward such as this from the Lib Dems. They were looking
:04:01. > :04:07.at lowering taxes to. It makes for a refreshing Holyrood campaign this
:04:08. > :04:18.time round. West Coast fishermen West Coast fishermen have been
:04:19. > :04:21.protesting at Holyrood over the Scottish Government's plans for a
:04:22. > :04:25.network of marine protected areas. The disused come under renewed
:04:26. > :04:29.scrutiny from MSPs amid warnings that fishermen's livelihoods are at
:04:30. > :04:34.risk and claims that those in favour of the measures have been subjected
:04:35. > :04:38.to intimidation. It makes me anger, it makes me angry the Scottish
:04:39. > :04:43.Government, the folk I put in there is not supporting the fishing
:04:44. > :04:48.industry. Fishermen from across the west coast came to Holyrood to make
:04:49. > :04:53.their views knows. Supporters were here too. This is proved to be an
:04:54. > :04:59.increasingly bitter and divisive debate with strong views being
:05:00. > :05:02.expressed on both sides. Today, it is Hollywood's rural affairs
:05:03. > :05:07.committee that has found itself at the centre of the storm. Many people
:05:08. > :05:13.have spoken to me who said they are too scared to be cut publicly
:05:14. > :05:20.whenever asked them to do so. Thank you. The committee rejected a bid
:05:21. > :05:25.from the Conservative MSP Jamie McGregor to script that scrap
:05:26. > :05:31.fishing restrictions. My guess for the day is The Herald's
:05:32. > :05:36.political editor, Magnus Gardham. Just on that, one doesn't want to
:05:37. > :05:41.see people with their livelihoods and a threat but it does seem cute
:05:42. > :05:44.race, I thought it was the fishermen would do a big thing about
:05:45. > :05:50.preservation areas. How can you have one without catching fewer fish? I'm
:05:51. > :05:59.not surprised this has blown up as a bit of an is to come it is a
:06:00. > :06:03.difficult issue given that the strenuous efforts he has made to
:06:04. > :06:07.have good relationships with the fishing industry. It is interesting
:06:08. > :06:14.to see a fishing industry outside. I have been covering this long enough
:06:15. > :06:24.to see fishermen burning a effigy of the former Minister. It is
:06:25. > :06:28.difficult. Richard Doherty has two balance the interests of
:06:29. > :06:32.conservationists who are keen on the MPA 's and fishermen who say it is
:06:33. > :06:39.going to end closed on their ability to do their jobs. The advantages is
:06:40. > :06:45.the fishermen and united. There are different sections of the fishing
:06:46. > :06:50.industry. It is: dredging that is particularly affected. There are
:06:51. > :06:55.different sections of the industry that are concerned about
:06:56. > :07:00.restrictions in different areas. I think you will get his way
:07:01. > :07:06.ultimately on this one. Now, the Liberal Democrats. Must forget about
:07:07. > :07:11.education. This idea that this time if we tell people we put the taxes
:07:12. > :07:17.up, people will flock to you. It has been tried before and the sensible
:07:18. > :07:23.arguments are, if we serious about what we say about how much we are in
:07:24. > :07:29.favour of public services we should be paying more taxes first up are
:07:30. > :07:33.week as Mac that is the argument Alex Salmond bid in 1999. It didn't
:07:34. > :07:40.work very well for the SNP back then. No party since then has even
:07:41. > :07:46.dared suggest using the tax powers that Holyrood has. The Liberal
:07:47. > :07:53.Democrats are in a particular position here. They need to be
:07:54. > :07:57.noticed. This is a bold plan. For a party which above all in this
:07:58. > :08:03.election campaign needs to carve out a niche, needs to get its voice
:08:04. > :08:11.heard, it is not a bad idea in those terms. Basically, the implication
:08:12. > :08:18.is, they can say anything but the main point is people would remain
:08:19. > :08:21.the Willie Rennie exists. There is a large element of that. That is where
:08:22. > :08:25.the Lib Dems are at the moment. Not that the language he is using. Save
:08:26. > :08:30.education. It is completely overblown. Look at the Commons he
:08:31. > :08:36.was making yesterday about Amazon, it is a brave thing for a politician
:08:37. > :08:41.to start criticising the biggest employer in his constituency. Billy
:08:42. > :08:44.back with you in a moment. Let's go to the chamber now where the debate
:08:45. > :08:50.is being led by the Liberal Democrats. This is about what they
:08:51. > :08:53.have been talking about the education spokesperson is calling
:08:54. > :08:59.for the introduction of the pupil premium to help raise the attainment
:09:00. > :09:04.of disadvantaged pupils. Let's crossover to the chamber.
:09:05. > :09:08.We can make a real difference in education. My colleagues set out
:09:09. > :09:12.earlier today plans to transform Scottish education over the next
:09:13. > :09:19.five years by committing to raising income tax by 5p. We'll be able to
:09:20. > :09:23.spend ?475 million more on education next year alone. The biggest
:09:24. > :09:26.investment in education since devolution. What a difference that
:09:27. > :09:32.could mean. It could help address some of the damage done to our
:09:33. > :09:38.sector over recent years by a government hell-bent slashing jobs.
:09:39. > :09:43.150,000 fewer places representing 150,000 opportunities lost. These
:09:44. > :09:49.extra resources could help reverse of the savage cuts by John Swinney
:09:50. > :09:55.to the Council budgets. Cuts, let's face it, that were hit education at
:09:56. > :10:00.the locker level. Will be an opportunity to deliver on the
:10:01. > :10:10.promises made by ministers in relation to early learning and
:10:11. > :10:15.childcare. A mere 7% are reaping the benefits. South of the border, he
:10:16. > :10:19.figures 42%. That shortfall is unacceptable and there's nothing to
:10:20. > :10:24.address the attainment gap. David Holden and that make clear the
:10:25. > :10:33.foundations are set out in the earliest years. -- save the children
:10:34. > :10:36.and others. As well as helping close the attainment gap, this represents
:10:37. > :10:48.investment in our economy and the social well-being of our country.
:10:49. > :10:53.That is what the Scottish Liberal Democrats have stepped on. We want
:10:54. > :10:58.to extend free early learning and childcare to two-year-olds. It is
:10:59. > :11:02.also why we have tarnished the approach taken by this government in
:11:03. > :11:07.relation to its attainment fund. As I have done on many occasions
:11:08. > :11:11.previously, I welcome the additional resources but the way ministers have
:11:12. > :11:15.decided to spend the money is wrong. Firstly, it is targeted at you have
:11:16. > :11:20.to is in councils but since then more local authorities have been
:11:21. > :11:23.added to the list to the point where the minister now boasts 64% of
:11:24. > :11:31.disadvantaged pupils now benefits from funding. 11 councils remain
:11:32. > :11:35.excluded. Children from poorer backgrounds whose knees may be every
:11:36. > :11:44.bit as great as their counterparts elsewhere are deemed by this
:11:45. > :11:49.government as inevitable. Almost 30,000 children will lose out. I
:11:50. > :11:54.thought the debate earlier this month summed up the absurdity. He
:11:55. > :11:59.talked about two schools who share one building but where one gets
:12:00. > :12:03.attainment funding, the other does not. It isn't as the inconsistency
:12:04. > :12:08.between neighbouring schools Buster serene neighbouring streets. How
:12:09. > :12:13.whenever can it be squared with the first ministers promised to close
:12:14. > :12:16.the attainment gap completely? Assuming the First Minister and
:12:17. > :12:19.Cabinet Secretary as serious in their attentions, they must
:12:20. > :12:23.recognise funding should be based on the individual needs of the
:12:24. > :12:27.individual child where ever they live. That is the underlying
:12:28. > :12:31.principle behind the pupil premium. It is working south of the border,
:12:32. > :12:39.we want to see the same principle applied here in Scotland. This
:12:40. > :12:42.year... Very briefly. I'm apprehensive about the Liberal
:12:43. > :12:49.Democrats talking about finances and education given your history on
:12:50. > :12:57.tuition fees. How much of the pupil premium be for every pupil? What is
:12:58. > :13:02.the total cost? I've already explained we would deliver 435
:13:03. > :13:13.minute pounds a year into the education, something I'm sure he
:13:14. > :13:16.would acknowledge. Funding available acquitted to ?935 per secondary
:13:17. > :13:20.pupils south of the border. The average schools with average
:13:21. > :13:26.numbers, this would represent a ?200,000. Many schools use the
:13:27. > :13:31.funding for individual coaching but other projects have included some
:13:32. > :13:41.classes are paying for transport extra curricula activities. The
:13:42. > :13:48.National Audit Office noted last year that early signs are the pupil
:13:49. > :13:52.premium has potential. Are there areas that need improvement? Yes.
:13:53. > :14:02.Will it take time for this approach to show its value? Probably. Is it
:14:03. > :14:05.showing its potential, absolutely. The Minister...
:14:06. > :14:07.The Liberal Democrat Education Spokesperson Liam McArthur
:14:08. > :14:11.Now, the Prime Minister has dropped a heavy hint that further
:14:12. > :14:13.financial aid could be on the way for the North Sea oil
:14:14. > :14:17.At Prime Minister's Questions, David Cameron said he would be
:14:18. > :14:20.Yesterday, the Energy Minister Fergus Ewing urged the UK Government
:14:21. > :14:22.to introduce tax measures in the spring budget
:14:23. > :14:26.Mr Ewing was responding to a question at Holyrood
:14:27. > :14:28.about research by the law firm Pinsent Masons.
:14:29. > :14:34.70% of the 200 executives it surveyed hoped to cash
:14:35. > :14:38.in on the drop in oil prices by buying up distressed firms.
:14:39. > :14:41.Here's more of what Fergus Ewing had to say in the Scottish Parliament
:14:42. > :14:52.There's 22 billion barrels of oil and gas remaining. There are still
:14:53. > :14:56.many opportunities in the North Sea, but maximising them will require a
:14:57. > :15:00.concerted effort from everyone from industry, governments, and the new
:15:01. > :15:04.regulator. We continue to stand alongside the oil and gas industry
:15:05. > :15:09.in Scotland, doing all that we can to improve collaboration,
:15:10. > :15:13.cooperation and innovation, creating a more competitive sector as well as
:15:14. > :15:15.further developing its status as a global centre of oil and gas
:15:16. > :15:30.expertise. In order to encourage global centre of oil and gas
:15:31. > :15:34.bring in a series of tax measures, including clarifying and
:15:35. > :15:37.decommissioning liabilities, a refinement of the investment
:15:38. > :15:43.allowance to include Opec's, and further fiscal measures to
:15:44. > :15:49.incentivise exploration in order to increase the international
:15:50. > :15:53.competitiveness of the UK CS. I welcome the response from the
:15:54. > :15:56.Minister and the action the Scottish Government is taking via the energy
:15:57. > :17:49.jobs task force to minimise redundancies wherever possible,
:17:50. > :17:52.jobs task force to minimise repeatedly called for more
:17:53. > :17:56.exploration. The level of exploration has dropped to parlous a
:17:57. > :18:02.low levels. In order to maintain the teams are expertise of people
:18:03. > :18:06.specifically in exploration, there needs to be more work for them to
:18:07. > :18:10.do. So iron Tiley agree with them that that is necessary. But it is
:18:11. > :18:14.not simply a matter of dismissing tax reliefs, although perhaps Mr
:18:15. > :18:17.McDonald was not seeking to do so. It is also recognising that while
:18:18. > :18:25.tax is not the main focus of industry at the moment, a frankly a
:18:26. > :18:30.survival. Taxes are necessary tool in box that can contribute towards
:18:31. > :18:35.the objective of surviving to thrive thereafter, and in particular, very
:18:36. > :18:40.few operators that I have met in the last few weeks, with earlier
:18:41. > :18:43.intensive engagement with the industry, and I will not name them,
:18:44. > :18:46.but they have said the same thing. There must be clarity of
:18:47. > :18:50.decommissioning liabilities. That lack of clarity is impeding
:18:51. > :18:55.investment, blocking deals. Those deals could secure the future of the
:18:56. > :18:59.constituents of Mr McDonald, and therefore, I do urge the UK
:19:00. > :19:03.Government to include in their spring budget the necessary steps
:19:04. > :19:07.upon which I know they are obtaining advice in order to allow those
:19:08. > :19:09.deals, to allow that investment, which will considerably assist the
:19:10. > :19:11.industry in its toughest challenge. Back to the chamber now,
:19:12. > :19:13.where MSPs are debating the Liberal Democrats' proposals
:19:14. > :19:16.to introduce a "pupil premium" to help raise the attainment
:19:17. > :19:29.of disadvantaged pupils. Alister Allan, the Minister for
:19:30. > :19:35.learning, is responding for the government. And how this funding and
:19:36. > :19:38.support them, and the result is targeted and focused on literacy,
:19:39. > :19:45.numerous to human health and well-being, both within and beyond
:19:46. > :19:47.the school. Family link workers, speech and language therapists,
:19:48. > :19:53.community learning workers, alongside teachers, are paid for by
:19:54. > :19:57.the attainment Scotland fund, alongside work to develop programmes
:19:58. > :20:03.and approaches to close the equity gap. The pupil premium approach in
:20:04. > :20:08.place in England and were, and which seems to be recommended by some in
:20:09. > :20:12.this place, is yet to be shown to have had an impact. The June 2015
:20:13. > :20:18.national audit report included that it was too early for the impact to
:20:19. > :20:25.be known. It also concluded that the pupil, funding had fallen in real
:20:26. > :20:33.terms, and -- in 45% of schools between 22 and 20 15. Most
:20:34. > :20:36.disadvantaged secondary schools' funding has fallen by 5% over the
:20:37. > :20:40.same period, despite the introduction of the pupil premium.
:20:41. > :20:44.In Scotland, our average per pupil spending in 2014-15 for both primary
:20:45. > :20:49.and secondary was higher than in England, and the Attainment Scotland
:20:50. > :20:53.Fund will provide business and funding to those children and
:20:54. > :20:57.communities who face some of the greatest challenges, and we will
:20:58. > :21:00.continue to do that. It is clear that where there are large
:21:01. > :21:04.concentrations of children living in deprived communities, there is a
:21:05. > :21:07.greater need for support, and our approach deliver that.
:21:08. > :21:11.We will continue to review how we target funding to ensure that we
:21:12. > :21:14.reach the children in the end people his outcomes are impacted greatly by
:21:15. > :21:18.living in poverty. Whilst our focus is on schools with a high
:21:19. > :21:21.concentration of children living in deprived communities, we are also
:21:22. > :21:26.aware of the need for universal support to close the attainment gap,
:21:27. > :21:29.and have enhanced the support already available by putting an
:21:30. > :21:36.attainment adviser in place for every authority. The development of
:21:37. > :21:42.the national improvement framework, the primary three read, write, Count
:21:43. > :21:45.campaign, and a maths programme. We must not lose sight of the fact that
:21:46. > :21:48.success is elusive for a small amount of our children, and a
:21:49. > :21:52.significant amount of our children from deprived communities. The gap
:21:53. > :21:57.in attainment is narrowing, but if we are to achieve our ambition of
:21:58. > :22:02.delivering a world-class education system for all of our children, we
:22:03. > :22:06.must and we will do more. Our approach to targeted funding through
:22:07. > :22:12.the Attainment Scotland Fund is clear evidence, I believe, of our
:22:13. > :22:20.determination to achieve just that. And I move the amendment in Miss
:22:21. > :22:31.Constance's name. Many thanks. I now call on Ian Brady. A maximum of five
:22:32. > :22:38.minutes, please. -- Ian Brady. -- Ian Gray.
:22:39. > :22:45.Our proposals do bears significant similarities, though in developing
:22:46. > :22:48.our own proposal, we didn't consult rather more than a thesaurus to find
:22:49. > :22:51.a different name for it. Indeed, one of the things we did consult with
:22:52. > :22:55.the work in research and analysis that had been done of the pupil
:22:56. > :23:00.premium, and so I would argue that the proposal we put forward today
:23:01. > :23:06.and have done already on a number of occasions is a more focused and more
:23:07. > :23:09.detailed proposal, and indeed, it is closer in fact to what was
:23:10. > :23:14.introduced in Wales, where some changes were made to the pupil
:23:15. > :23:17.premium, exactly to try and meet some of the flaws which had been
:23:18. > :23:22.identified. Perhaps the most significant flaw identified with the
:23:23. > :23:26.pupil premium is that although Ofsted did find some evidence of
:23:27. > :23:32.effectiveness, it also found some evidence of head teachers banking
:23:33. > :23:36.the pupil premium as part of their overall budget, and in fact, not
:23:37. > :23:42.using it in any way to help close the attainment gap. Our proposal, as
:23:43. > :23:47.I will come too late, does try to avoid that as a possibility. But
:23:48. > :23:53.where we do very much agree with Mr McArthur is on the weaknesses of the
:23:54. > :23:56.approach of the SNP government. We have argued previously and continue
:23:57. > :24:01.to argue that the attainment fund, while welcome, is firstly
:24:02. > :24:08.inadequate, in that there are not enough funds, and that it is wrongly
:24:09. > :24:11.targeted. I think that the minister rather gave that away when he said
:24:12. > :24:16.they would continue to consider how it is targeted, which gives the game
:24:17. > :24:19.away, I think, that since this fund has been announced, the government
:24:20. > :24:24.has shown every sign of making it up as they go along in their targeting.
:24:25. > :24:31.In the past, I have given examples of some of the worst cases of the
:24:32. > :24:39.result of that approach, and Mr McArthur referred to one - to
:24:40. > :24:46.schools and St Johnstone, one campus, one entrance, one Jim Hall,
:24:47. > :24:49.want to know Hall -- one dinner hall. Pupils coming from exactly the
:24:50. > :24:53.same street, get one of those schools get attainment funding, and
:24:54. > :24:56.the other does not. In fact, the one that gets no attainment challenge
:24:57. > :25:01.funding of the one that has more pupils from poorer parts of that
:25:02. > :25:05.community. But we see the same thing elsewhere. In East Ayrshire, in
:25:06. > :25:10.Kilmarnock, I have seen an example of a street which is divided by a
:25:11. > :25:14.catchment area boundary, so that children from the same street go to
:25:15. > :25:17.two different schools, and in one of those schools, they will benefit
:25:18. > :25:22.from attainment challenge funding, and in the other, they will not. I
:25:23. > :25:26.was in the borders earlier this week, where only two primary schools
:25:27. > :25:34.on the whole of the Scottish Borders get attainment challenge funding.
:25:35. > :25:38.Both of them are in Hoik, so in Galashiels, where I was, no schools
:25:39. > :25:41.benefit. And I have spoken before about the example of my own
:25:42. > :25:44.constituency, when not one single school benefits from the attainment
:25:45. > :25:49.challenge funding. So that is why we have proposed an alternative. ?1000
:25:50. > :25:56.which follows every child with a free school meal entitlement to
:25:57. > :25:59.Emory School. -- primary school. That would pretty well benefit every
:26:00. > :26:05.primary school in the country, but it would also mean that the
:26:06. > :26:08.headteacher would have to use those resources from a choice, a suite of
:26:09. > :26:12.agreed evidence -based interventions, which we know would
:26:13. > :26:24.really make a difference, as is the case in Wales. A fund would also
:26:25. > :26:28.provide a lesser fund to nurseries, providing free nursery place
:26:29. > :26:33.entitlement, because Mr McArthur is right when he says all the evidence
:26:34. > :26:37.is, intervention must be as early as possible. And what would be the
:26:38. > :26:40.benefit of all of this? Well, for the borders, which I referred to
:26:41. > :26:48.earlier, their primary schools would share some ?860,000. In East
:26:49. > :26:53.Ayrshire, ?1.9 million, a council area where at the moment, only six
:26:54. > :26:58.primary schools benefit. And in my own constituency of East Lothian,
:26:59. > :27:03.almost ?1 million, meaning my constituency would have some schools
:27:04. > :27:06.with a fund every year of around ?85,000, which they could use to
:27:07. > :27:11.employ additional staff, classroom assistants, particular equipment, or
:27:12. > :27:15.to run particular programmes in literacy and numerous sea, whatever
:27:16. > :27:19.the staff and Headteachers in those schools thought would be possible.
:27:20. > :27:32.That was Ian Brady speaking there. I'm joined now from Hollywood by a
:27:33. > :27:37.galaxy of MSPs. -- Ian Gray. Jim Hume, this people are lured
:27:38. > :27:41.pupil premium, why is it you can have a pupil premium in England with
:27:42. > :27:44.no includes in income tax, but to get one in Scotland, you need to put
:27:45. > :27:48.your income tax bills up? We have to look at what the SNP are
:27:49. > :27:55.doing. We have seen half ?1 billion being cut off council tax. We have
:27:56. > :27:59.seen ?152,000 college places disappear since 2007. That is a long
:28:00. > :28:03.hill we have got to climb, so that is why we are proposing what we're
:28:04. > :28:06.today. I will ask the question again. Why can they have a pupil
:28:07. > :28:12.premium in England with no increase in in contact, but there has to be
:28:13. > :28:16.an income tax increase here? I will repeat the question, starting
:28:17. > :28:20.from a very low level. The pupil premium down south...
:28:21. > :28:24.Sorry, sorry, you say we are starting at a very low level. I
:28:25. > :28:27.using Oss gusts spending per student in the Scottish is a case in system
:28:28. > :28:34.is lower than in England? -- are you saying? I thought it was higher.
:28:35. > :28:37.In Scotland, we have seen a college places disappear, we are seeing a
:28:38. > :28:43.proposed that the council budgets, with about half of that going on
:28:44. > :28:46.schools. So we have to address that as quickly as possible. We want to
:28:47. > :28:52.hit the ground running, and ensure that we have the best education
:28:53. > :28:58.system for years to come. I still don't understand. Of
:28:59. > :29:02.education for student -- if spending per student is higher than in
:29:03. > :29:06.England, and if in England, you can have a pupil premium without putting
:29:07. > :29:10.up income tax, why is it, in Scotland, we need to put up income
:29:11. > :29:13.tax in order to do that? Why not take money from somewhere else?
:29:14. > :29:18.We won't make sure we close that attainment gap, which has been
:29:19. > :29:22.closing elsewhere. -- we want to make sure we close that attainment
:29:23. > :29:28.gap. As you have heard in the debate, there are very few schools
:29:29. > :29:31.that at the moment get any attainment funding from the Scottish
:29:32. > :29:34.Government, so we want to make sure we hit the ground running and have
:29:35. > :29:38.the best education department in the future.
:29:39. > :29:44.Joan McAlpine, I'm not sure if you could hear what Iain Gray said
:29:45. > :29:48.there, one of the points he was saying about this attainment is
:29:49. > :29:53.funded it seems arbitrary in the way it works. He gave an example of the
:29:54. > :29:56.street weather is a catchment area that runs through the streets, half
:29:57. > :30:01.of the students go to one school and half gets the other. One school gets
:30:02. > :30:07.the attainment fund and the other doesn't. It seems to be made up. It
:30:08. > :30:10.goes down to the index of deprivation which the Labour
:30:11. > :30:18.government used in the past. But what about the case when a boundary
:30:19. > :30:23.goes through a street? 67% of pupils in the lowest categories are getting
:30:24. > :30:28.this money. We have set up their new fund for innovation which can be
:30:29. > :30:33.targeted at all pupils. As well as that, local authorities have been
:30:34. > :30:39.given an attainment advise funded by the Scottish Government which
:30:40. > :30:51.directs funds to the people that needed most. That is one of the best
:30:52. > :30:57.things you can do in terms of attainment. One of the points
:30:58. > :31:02.Alister Allan from your party was making, he said the evidence shows
:31:03. > :31:06.it is too early to show whether the pupil premium in England is actually
:31:07. > :31:13.having any effect on the attainment of students. Do you have any
:31:14. > :31:18.evidence at all that your attainment fund is having any influence on the
:31:19. > :31:23.achievements on students? Givers are we while. It has only been in place
:31:24. > :31:28.a few months. I think it is reasonable to suggest if you target
:31:29. > :31:34.resources on the skills that need it most you get a result. Hold on
:31:35. > :31:39.amendments, you mustn't lose sight of the fact that in equality in
:31:40. > :31:47.education stems from inequality in income and the way we address that
:31:48. > :31:53.are very much in Westminster's hands. Having said that, we can use
:31:54. > :31:57.education to address that inequality which is coming from austerity
:31:58. > :32:06.policies from the UK Government. That is another form of mitigation.
:32:07. > :32:10.Neil Bibby, Iain Gray in what he was saying in parliament there, he kept
:32:11. > :32:15.saying he wanted to model what your plans are and what was happening in
:32:16. > :32:20.Wales. It seems that the Julia thing your model you plan on giving the
:32:21. > :32:30.last test, Wales was the worst of any of the UK nations on every
:32:31. > :32:33.count. Maths, reading and science. Wales will have challenges as well
:32:34. > :32:40.as Scotland. We need to address the problems that exist here. Hang on a
:32:41. > :32:44.second, if we are fans of evidence -based public spending wisely but
:32:45. > :32:51.basing its plans on evidence from the area of Britain which is doing
:32:52. > :32:55.worse than any other area? We will work with head teachers, teachers
:32:56. > :32:59.and education professionals to see what is the best way of improving
:33:00. > :33:03.attainment. We will prioritise the resources to improve the outcomes of
:33:04. > :33:08.children in Scotland. We have seen over the past couple of years new
:33:09. > :33:21.Morrissey standards falling, 4000 fewer teachers. --. There was a
:33:22. > :33:26.school where one school was getting the support and the other isn't.
:33:27. > :33:29.This these to stop. Labour is saying we were about ?70 million into the
:33:30. > :33:33.fair starts fund to Tiger support for the pupils who need it most. We
:33:34. > :33:38.will work with teachers and head teachers are the best to spend that
:33:39. > :33:43.money. You still haven't explained to us why Wales should be the model
:33:44. > :33:47.for this. Wales are targeting support in the poorest pupils. We
:33:48. > :33:53.need to look at all the examples there are right across the United
:33:54. > :33:57.Kingdom to improve education in Scotland. Why choose the example of
:33:58. > :34:01.the country that is doing worst? We have seen some improvements in the
:34:02. > :34:04.education system in Wales. There have been long-standing problems
:34:05. > :34:08.with education in different parts of the UK that they have seen
:34:09. > :34:12.improvements in Wales and we want to see how we can replicate them in
:34:13. > :34:18.Scotland. We've got huge challenges here in literacy standards, numerous
:34:19. > :34:25.to standards are falling. We need an alternative plan. The Conservatives
:34:26. > :34:30.claim credit for the pupil premium in England, or credit along with the
:34:31. > :34:34.Lib Dems, as Alister Allan said there, that isn't any evidence it is
:34:35. > :34:42.making any difference. He would say that wouldn't see. Anything in
:34:43. > :34:48.Westminster College of the SNP is bad. People premium has only been
:34:49. > :34:56.there for four years. Evidence from teachers in England is... Evidence
:34:57. > :35:00.on the ground is called hearsay. The policy has only been there for
:35:01. > :35:04.four years. It is better to get statistical evidence from an early
:35:05. > :35:11.age. You have to track children throughout their school career. They
:35:12. > :35:13.will be later in their school career before you can have statistical
:35:14. > :35:18.information. The evidence from school teachers in England is the
:35:19. > :35:25.pupil premium is helping provide additional resources. Briefly, why
:35:26. > :35:32.is all the debate in Scotland always about throwing more money at
:35:33. > :35:37.schools? The report I was referring to earlier makes the point that in
:35:38. > :35:44.maths, 30% of the variance between country can be put down to spending
:35:45. > :35:47.per student. The main factors affecting education and nothing to
:35:48. > :35:50.do with the amount of money you spend. People looking at what is
:35:51. > :35:57.happening in schools and what is happening with the cutbacks we have
:35:58. > :36:02.seen and the decline in teaching numbers will realise that finance is
:36:03. > :36:09.important. It is important to targeting assistance to the people
:36:10. > :36:13.in need. The best route out of inequality is to improve educational
:36:14. > :36:16.opportunity for those who are most vulnerable. That is what the pupil
:36:17. > :36:24.premium is achieving in England and will do in Scotland. Thank you all
:36:25. > :36:29.very much. What do you make of this? Do you think there is an issue that
:36:30. > :36:32.might become an election issue? I don't know how that will translate
:36:33. > :36:36.into the election but there is an interesting debate that is going on
:36:37. > :36:42.about education. I'm sure it'll take clever educationalists along time to
:36:43. > :36:47.weigh up the best approach. There is a difference of approach. It is
:36:48. > :36:50.worth reminding ourselves that all of the parties here seeking to
:36:51. > :36:55.achieve the same thing which is to reduce the attainment gap between
:36:56. > :36:59.better rough and less well off kids in schools, the SNP taking an
:37:00. > :37:03.approach which is targeted more regionally. Alistair Darling talking
:37:04. > :37:11.about deprived communities and using the index of deprivation to do that.
:37:12. > :37:19.-- Alister Allan. Labour and the Lib Dems saying the money should follow
:37:20. > :37:23.the individual. Critics of the SNP's approach are saying a lot of schools
:37:24. > :37:31.and 85% of schools, aren't benefiting from the SNP's attainment
:37:32. > :37:38.challenge. What might be an interesting, there isn't any hard
:37:39. > :37:42.evidence anyone can produce. If this continues someone at some point a
:37:43. > :37:49.lot to produce some evidence that any of these things actually work.
:37:50. > :37:52.That has been one of the problems about debate about public spending
:37:53. > :37:56.in Scotland, it isn't measured by the results. You think that might
:37:57. > :38:01.change? There is a genuine problem here. That is a lack of hard
:38:02. > :38:06.evidence. Liam McArthur marshalled some evidence to suggest there have
:38:07. > :38:10.been modest improvements south of the board as a result of the pupil
:38:11. > :38:16.premium but I think what Murdo Fraser says, it should be taken into
:38:17. > :38:22.account. Four years isn't a long period of time foreign policy which
:38:23. > :38:27.is intended to have such a long-term effect... To be fed to the SNP, it
:38:28. > :38:33.has been in a few months that they've had the attainment. Maybe
:38:34. > :38:37.some point they will feel constrained to come forward and say
:38:38. > :38:42.we have done the evidence is it works or it doesn't. Do remember the
:38:43. > :38:47.days when the Scottish Parliament was advertised as a laboratory where
:38:48. > :38:52.differences of approach could be tested within the different nations
:38:53. > :38:58.of the UK and we find that the best way of making public policy. I'm
:38:59. > :38:59.sure that the whim of the vast majority of people.
:39:00. > :39:14.David Cameron has insisted that the government has done more
:39:15. > :39:17.than any other to crack down on tax evasion and avoidance.
:39:18. > :39:18.Speaking at Prime Minister's Questions,
:39:19. > :39:20.he defended the agreement with Google to pay ?130 million
:39:21. > :39:23.in back taxes saying the money should have been collected when
:39:24. > :39:33.Independent experts have said Google are paying 3% tax. Does the Prime
:39:34. > :39:56.Minister dispute that figure? are paying 3% tax. Does the Prime
:39:57. > :40:01.independently by HMRC but I'm absolutely clear no government has
:40:02. > :40:05.done more than this one to crack down on tax evasion and aggressive
:40:06. > :40:09.tax avoidance, no government and certainly not the last Labour
:40:10. > :40:16.government. Mr Speaker, we have had no answers on Google, we've had no
:40:17. > :41:54.answers on Jeff, can I raise with him another
:41:55. > :41:58.answers on Jeff, can I raise with which was a judgment by the European
:41:59. > :42:01.Court as we put in place in the 1990s when this government decided
:42:02. > :42:06.rightly in my view to raise the retirement age, we made the decision
:42:07. > :42:11.no one should suffer greater than 18 must increase in their retirement
:42:12. > :42:15.age. That is the decision this House of Commons to in ending
:42:16. > :42:20.discrimination of the pension system, the interdiction of the
:42:21. > :42:24.single tier pension at ?155 a week, is one of best ways we can end
:42:25. > :42:28.discrimination because so many women retiring will get more in their
:42:29. > :42:37.pension. And the kiss government it is triple locked protected. -- under
:42:38. > :42:40.this government. Since the Chancellor took control of
:42:41. > :42:46.the public purse he has failed to get the deficit under control. To
:42:47. > :42:57.date this year he has boggled 74 billion to plug the gap. --
:42:58. > :43:04.borrowed. It is a monumental black hole. Is he now likely to breach his
:43:05. > :43:09.own deficit-reduction target by ?9 billion? My right honourable friend
:43:10. > :43:18.the Chancellor has the economic strategy this government has pursued
:43:19. > :43:23.coming he's got the -- cut the deficit in half. What a contest I
:43:24. > :43:28.would say with the situation that Scotland would be facing if Scotland
:43:29. > :43:37.had voted for independence in just six weeks' time we have seen a
:43:38. > :43:41.collapse. If 94% of the all revenues. That's collapse in the oil
:43:42. > :43:47.price and the taxation won't affect able in Scotland but has gotten then
:43:48. > :43:54.independent it would have been a dark, dark day indeed.
:43:55. > :43:57.As you will be able to see, I would Westminster correspondence has
:43:58. > :44:06.adopted a cunning strategy to maintain his reign free reputation.
:44:07. > :44:09.Thank you very much. The news is it is raining and the most important
:44:10. > :44:21.part of that is, I am not in it and neither am I guess. Let me introduce
:44:22. > :44:27.you to them. Ian Murray for Labour. I will start with the Conservatives
:44:28. > :44:37.today. Was that Google tax still a good deal? I am very proud today the
:44:38. > :44:40.UK is one entrance ?30 million richer because of HMRC and the
:44:41. > :44:48.Conservative government. There is not the Getty this is about paying
:44:49. > :44:52.backdated tax... My apologies for that. We will have to leave David,
:44:53. > :44:57.there seems to be some problem with the sound. We all joy to fix that
:44:58. > :45:00.and go back to it, but in the meantime, Magnus, let's talk a bit
:45:01. > :45:05.more about this education thing. Is that going to be the Big Issue
:45:06. > :45:13.during the election? I think it is going to be a big issue, and all the
:45:14. > :45:17.parties are trying to set their stall out with 100 days to go.
:45:18. > :45:22.There has been disagreement about what exactly constitutes 100 days.
:45:23. > :45:24.It seems to have been going on since Sunday. But the Lib Dems are now
:45:25. > :45:34.putting all their eggs in the education basket. Kezia
:45:35. > :45:38.Dugdale asserting about their Fair Start fund, which is their version
:45:39. > :45:41.of that. I think we will see Nicola Sturgeon popping up at primary
:45:42. > :45:45.schools and nurseries a lot over the next couple of days. But it is
:45:46. > :45:50.interesting that the Lib Dems and the Conservatives and Labour are all
:45:51. > :45:56.thinking education to be further powers that will be coming to
:45:57. > :46:00.Holyrood, or tax powers are least. -- linking education. Should all
:46:01. > :46:06.this be sorted out, and this very complicated fiscal framework in
:46:07. > :46:10.place, there will be some debate, but of course, if the whole thing is
:46:11. > :46:13.done, it could be an election which is basically about tax, for the
:46:14. > :46:16.first time in Scotland. It will be about how much tax you
:46:17. > :46:23.are going to pay. Certainly. The Lib Dems are talking
:46:24. > :46:27.about using the existing powers, so they can put 1p across the board and
:46:28. > :46:31.that they exist in power is. Others might want to adopt the
:46:32. > :46:36.recommendations of this report. Yes, for that 30p income tax raised.
:46:37. > :46:40.Labour's education plans are predicated on raising the additional
:46:41. > :46:46.rate from 45p to 50p, which would only come under the new Scotland
:46:47. > :46:50.Bill, probably in about 2017. I have to say, I think all of that is
:46:51. > :46:52.probably a little bit up in the air at the moment.
:46:53. > :46:57.It is interesting that leaves the SNP, am I right in thinking, that
:46:58. > :47:01.they are the only party that don't have any specific proposals on tax?
:47:02. > :47:05.I know the Tories had not formally adopted this position, but that
:47:06. > :47:07.means the SNP and the anyone with no official position on changing
:47:08. > :47:11.taxation? John Swinney said he would not change the basic rate, and they
:47:12. > :47:15.hinted that they might go along with what Labour are seeing is the top
:47:16. > :47:19.rate. But then, actually, a formal announcement. Yes, that is my
:47:20. > :47:24.understanding. We are told that we can look forward to progressive
:47:25. > :47:32.proposals. We certainly know, as you have said, that the SNP are backed
:47:33. > :47:36.-- eventually backed the 50p tax rate in the last general election,
:47:37. > :47:41.boy not sure what they are planning to do, which is interesting, given
:47:42. > :47:44.the finely balanced state of negotiations around the fiscal
:47:45. > :47:51.framework, which will be the financial underpinnings of this.
:47:52. > :47:54.Lets talk more about the petitions about the minute.
:47:55. > :47:57.Now, not only do it have the glorious sight of David, I think we
:47:58. > :48:01.can hear him properly. Thank you very much. Yes, it is an
:48:02. > :48:05.irony, we move into the warm and dry, and all the equipment goes
:48:06. > :48:09.capital. Hopefully, things are better. I will continue with our
:48:10. > :48:12.discussion. I was talking to Alberto about the Google tax deal, really at
:48:13. > :48:16.the end of the day, whether it was such a good deal.
:48:17. > :48:18.I was just announcing the good news that this country, the United
:48:19. > :48:23.Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is ?130 million
:48:24. > :48:28.richer today than it was under the Labour government, because what we
:48:29. > :48:34.have done is, we have collected the backdated tax is that Google owed,
:48:35. > :48:37.backdated from 2005, as far back as Tony Blair's Premiership. So I think
:48:38. > :48:44.we should be thanking HMRC for the good work they have done to get that
:48:45. > :48:46.big company to pay backdated taxes. Let me also add that the
:48:47. > :48:51.Conservative government has been shutting down the loopholes that
:48:52. > :48:54.existed during the Labour government years, and we have raised more in
:48:55. > :48:58.taxation than during the Labour years. I think that is something we
:48:59. > :49:01.can be proud of across the United Kingdom, having a Conservative
:49:02. > :49:05.government. So, Ian Murray, all Labour's fault
:49:06. > :49:07.or not collecting the tax on the first place?
:49:08. > :49:14.He would say that, wouldn't you. This was identified in 2009, when
:49:15. > :49:17.the enquiry began. It has been six years coming to fruition. The
:49:18. > :49:20.Treasury Select Committee think this is a derisory amount. The public and
:49:21. > :49:25.committee think the same. Most of the city bankers not too far from
:49:26. > :49:28.the think it is a derisory amount, and all the people in Scotland who
:49:29. > :49:31.are filling out their tax returns, there is possessed and forms, and
:49:32. > :49:34.late into the night between now and the end of the week, I would have
:49:35. > :49:37.thought, putting together, I'd get the same service from HMRC, or get
:49:38. > :49:43.the same preferential treatment. This is a sweetheart agreement, and
:49:44. > :49:48.Robert helps at all this out, Alberto had a very eloquent response
:49:49. > :49:51.there, but it would be some transparency. If we could see and
:49:52. > :49:55.look at what the deal was, we would be more satisfied. That are big and
:49:56. > :49:58.30,000,010 years is a very good tax take.
:49:59. > :50:02.You may not like it, but it is all within the law. If the law is on
:50:03. > :50:06.right, is not up to people to change it? I think one of the important
:50:07. > :50:10.thing is, as has been said, is about the transparency, and absolutely, I
:50:11. > :50:12.agree that we need to close loopholes and make sure companies
:50:13. > :50:17.pay more tax. One thing I'm concerned about is the
:50:18. > :50:21.fact that, if ?130 million, which is apparently about 3%, if that is OK
:50:22. > :50:24.for a big corporation to pay that, we'll be OK for other big
:50:25. > :50:30.corporations to also only pay that small amount. It is not OK frame
:50:31. > :50:33.small trader or an individual to pay that amount. We need transparency to
:50:34. > :50:38.see of this is all the backdated taxes Google owes, and come with its
:50:39. > :50:42.other companies to pay one at the O. Does 3% and become the going rate
:50:43. > :50:46.for large corporations? No, it absolutely cannot be. We can
:50:47. > :50:51.go from a situation where, under Ian's party in government, it was
:50:52. > :50:54.0%, and now it is effectively 3%, backdated. Other countries seem to
:50:55. > :50:56.be doing a better, so this great country of Great Britain and
:50:57. > :51:02.Northern Ireland possibly needs to learn from other countries that do
:51:03. > :51:09.recognise that global operating companies, mainly intact, can shift
:51:10. > :51:11.resourcess quite conveniently for their own resources, where nation
:51:12. > :51:16.states, who have to have revenues for our own public services, need to
:51:17. > :51:19.be able to have a smart tax system, as smart as possible. I think this
:51:20. > :51:22.should be a wake-up call for us in this country. We need to be aware
:51:23. > :51:27.that the way these global companies operate now cannot be the right way
:51:28. > :51:30.forward for us to get the revenue that we need.
:51:31. > :51:33.We are pressed for time, so I'd like to move onto another issue. The
:51:34. > :51:36.Prime Minister is going up to Aberdeen tomorrow to talk about the
:51:37. > :51:40.oil industry. It is widely expected he will announce measures to help
:51:41. > :51:45.the oil industry. Alberto, is it going to be enough?
:51:46. > :51:48.This is extremely welcome news, and I hope that the Labour Party and the
:51:49. > :51:52.Liberal Democrats will join me in welcoming the fact that the
:51:53. > :51:56.Conservative government are the ones helping to build a bridge for the
:51:57. > :52:01.oil and gas industry for Scotland's future within the United Kingdom.
:52:02. > :52:05.Let me say this - we are going a step further, because the Secretary
:52:06. > :52:09.of State for Scotland, is of course, going to Mozambique to help sell the
:52:10. > :52:11.expertise that has been guarded on the island gas industry, and
:52:12. > :52:15.thirdly, the Conservative government will help diversify the economy in
:52:16. > :52:20.Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire, and I hope that they would create that
:52:21. > :52:27.with satisfaction, that it is helping Kirsty's constituents, to
:52:28. > :52:30.develop Scotland's expertise in diverse of buying that.
:52:31. > :52:33.And that same question to the Freeview, very briefly.
:52:34. > :52:36.Ian first. I wrote to the Chancellor a few weeks ago to ask the UK
:52:37. > :52:41.Government to do all it possibly could to support the UK oil and gas
:52:42. > :52:43.industry. Hopefully, we will see a city deal signed tomorrow.
:52:44. > :52:47.Hopefully, both governments are part of that city deal, not just in the
:52:48. > :52:50.structure and innovation, but also on housing and transport which is
:52:51. > :52:54.crucial as well. 65,000 jobs are being lost. The oil price will be
:52:55. > :52:57.low for a considerable time. We need to give all the support we can,
:52:58. > :53:01.because the UK has benefited from oil revenues when things were good,
:53:02. > :53:03.so it is up to the UK now to help the oil industry now things have
:53:04. > :53:07.turned slightly bad. Kirsty.
:53:08. > :53:09.In Aberdeen, we have been feeling this. My constituents have been
:53:10. > :53:13.losing their jobs, and it has been really concerning. I have been very
:53:14. > :53:17.pleased that the city deal is on the table, and we're looking at this. In
:53:18. > :53:20.fact, every party has pulled together on this at every level of
:53:21. > :53:26.elected representatives, and it is a real success story Aberdeen. And the
:53:27. > :53:29.Scottish Government. Jerry, the last word to you.
:53:30. > :53:32.The future of industry requires a very long-term view now for the next
:53:33. > :53:37.30 years, so I agree with Kirsty that this has to be party politics
:53:38. > :53:40.aside. I would like there to be a long-term strategy by joint strategy
:53:41. > :53:44.Scottish Government and UK Government, not two different
:53:45. > :53:47.partial one, but are jointly to work that can be for the future.
:53:48. > :53:51.I would like to continue this, and we will at some future point, but
:53:52. > :53:54.unfortunately, the clock has beaten us. Thank you for your perseverance
:53:55. > :53:57.with the technical problems. Gordon, back to you.
:53:58. > :54:03.Magnus, we will just give you briefly aid chance to finish your
:54:04. > :54:07.thought about the election. If, as has been present, there is no fiscal
:54:08. > :54:10.framework comedy thing that changes things?
:54:11. > :54:14.Clearly. If there is no fiscal framework, there will be no Scotland
:54:15. > :54:20.Bill before the election, certainly. There are tactical advantages,
:54:21. > :54:24.potentially, to John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon if that happens, not
:54:25. > :54:27.least pulling the rug from under a lot of the policies that their
:54:28. > :54:32.opponents are going to be talking about during the election, so John
:54:33. > :54:39.Swinney has set a deadline of February the 12th, and he will just
:54:40. > :54:42.have to wait and see how that goes. Do you think, being cynical, it
:54:43. > :54:48.could sue them? Being cynical, I think it could. I
:54:49. > :54:50.think we would get an almighty row. -- suit them.
:54:51. > :54:53.It would be an odd thing for a national government sued change the
:54:54. > :54:55.views and powers. We will have to leave it there.
:54:56. > :55:00.That's all we have time for this afternoon.