:00:24. > :00:30.Good afternoon. Plenty going on in both parliaments north and south of
:00:30. > :00:35.the border. Here at Westminster, the coalition government publishes
:00:35. > :00:39.its plans for reform of the House of Lords but some Tories do not
:00:39. > :00:44.like it one little bit. The whole thing is part of a rather grubby
:00:44. > :00:50.political deal between the Conservatives and Liberals. The
:00:50. > :00:55.liberals say if you give us House of Lords reform we will vote for a
:00:55. > :00:59.reduction in the size of the House of Commons which the Conservatives
:00:59. > :01:05.believe will give them more seats. This is not the basis on which to
:01:05. > :01:11.make major constitutional change. At Holy Rood, politicians are
:01:11. > :01:15.debating plans to create a single police and fire services. And
:01:15. > :01:22.Better Together is the message from the Unionist parties as they joined
:01:22. > :01:26.forces to oppose the yes campaign's plans for independence.
:01:26. > :01:31.Big UK government is unfailing get long awaited plans for a mostly
:01:31. > :01:41.elected House of Lords in the face of a possible rebellion by
:01:41. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :01:49.Conservative MPs. Many Tory MPs believe constitutional change
:01:49. > :01:53.should not be a priority and up to 100 are expected to oppose the bill.
:01:53. > :01:56.Our Westminster reporter, David Porter, joined me and also with me
:01:57. > :02:02.throughout the programme is Professor John Curtice of
:02:02. > :02:06.Strathclyde University. David, what other key concessions at this
:02:06. > :02:12.stage? The nuts and bolts of this plan, which has been published in
:02:13. > :02:22.its first reading today, are that you would be virtually half the
:02:22. > :02:26.size of the House of Lords, it down to 450. 80% of that would be
:02:26. > :02:34.elected and they will be there for a 15 year term. The government says
:02:34. > :02:38.they want to get it through by the time of the next UK election, so in
:02:38. > :02:43.2015 they would be planning to have an election not just for the House
:02:43. > :02:46.of Commons but for the House of Lords as well. On the face of the
:02:46. > :02:50.bill they have written that the Parliament Act will prevail which
:02:50. > :02:58.means that the House of Commons would have supremacy over this new
:02:58. > :03:05.body. This will be hugely controversial. What is be find it
:03:05. > :03:11.all? He in some senses, everybody has been pushing for it. All three
:03:11. > :03:16.political parties had something in the 2010 manifestos. The Labour
:03:16. > :03:21.Party promised a referendum on reform along with a vote on the
:03:21. > :03:24.Commons electoral system. The Liberals have long been in form of
:03:24. > :03:29.an elected House of Lords and the Conservatives said they would try
:03:29. > :03:34.to seek consensus. The debate is essentially about what is the
:03:34. > :03:38.legitimate basis for have been a second house. We have almost got
:03:38. > :03:48.rid of the hereditary peers, which is where the Lords originally came
:03:48. > :03:52.from. We have ended up with the House of Lords that is primarily
:03:52. > :03:59.appointed by the Crown, but clearly questions can be raised about
:03:59. > :04:03.whether or not in a modern democracy people becoming well
:04:03. > :04:09.makers after being appointed on recommendation by the Prime
:04:09. > :04:15.Minister and Queen is correct. The issue that has exercised MPs is
:04:15. > :04:19.that if we have unelected House of Lords of full-time politicians will
:04:19. > :04:24.this body collectively begin to challenge the Commons? That is why
:04:24. > :04:30.they are trying to put onto the face of the Bill the Parliament Act,
:04:30. > :04:36.which limits the power of the House of Lords. They will also make
:04:36. > :04:41.changes to ensure that these do not look like alternative MPs. They
:04:41. > :04:45.will be part time collected from nothing that resembles a
:04:45. > :04:50.constituency. These are all measures designed to try and make
:04:50. > :04:55.the Lords look like less competition to the Commons. David,
:04:55. > :04:59.what is the strength of feeling among some of the Tories? They do
:04:59. > :05:04.feel strongly about this. Some of them feel that with everything that
:05:04. > :05:08.is going on at the moment in the economy and the government trying
:05:08. > :05:15.to bear down on the government debt, that this is something that they do
:05:15. > :05:20.not need to be approaching at the moment. They have the sense that it
:05:20. > :05:24.is not broken, why do you want to fix it? Some feel that it is making
:05:24. > :05:28.too many concessions to the Liberal Democrats. They were annoyed last
:05:28. > :05:33.year when there was the referendum on the alternative voting system
:05:33. > :05:38.and pleased with the result when it was beaten. They feel but David
:05:38. > :05:42.Cameron has perhaps given too much to Nick Clegg combos. They say he
:05:42. > :05:49.should remember that the Conservatives are by far the
:05:49. > :05:53.greater party. You have those on the bottom of the ministerial
:05:53. > :05:58.ladder who have indicated that they may not be able to support the
:05:58. > :06:02.Government and the government is talking tough. At Prime Minister's
:06:02. > :06:06.Questions, David Cameron indicated that he wanted this to go through.
:06:06. > :06:12.The government are saying that they would expect everyone on the so-
:06:12. > :06:16.called government payroll to support the government. You could
:06:16. > :06:20.find you would have resignations over the West and the rebellion on
:06:20. > :06:29.the Conservative benches was more than the rebellion bustier and
:06:29. > :06:34.there are talking about wanting a referendum. What will the Nick
:06:34. > :06:39.Clegg have to concede here? What the government have not conceded is
:06:39. > :06:49.the idea of holding a referendum on Lords reform. One suspects Nick
:06:49. > :06:51.
:06:51. > :06:56.Clegg may have to concede that. The peak political development of
:06:56. > :07:01.the week is the launch of the Better Together campaign to keep
:07:01. > :07:05.Scotland in the UK. Our political editor, Brian Taylor, it joins us
:07:05. > :07:07.with some guests in the Garden Lobby.
:07:07. > :07:12.We have the launch of Better Together and a couple of weeks ago
:07:12. > :07:17.we had the launch of the Yes campaign. What we do not yet have
:07:17. > :07:24.is a date for the referendum or details on the question. Let us
:07:24. > :07:31.talk with contenders from each of the signs. Are you going to stick
:07:31. > :07:36.to a positive campaign on the union? It sounded as though there
:07:36. > :07:41.was a fair dose of the politics of fear in there as well. I do not
:07:41. > :07:46.think it is the politics of fear. I think this is an interesting
:07:46. > :07:51.campaign where parties of different views have an interest. It is a
:07:51. > :07:55.lesson that Scotland needs to learn, that people working together is the
:07:56. > :08:00.future for Scotland. You are standing close to your close chum
:08:00. > :08:05.on the subject! The Labour Party and the Conservative Party have
:08:05. > :08:09.been at their throats for ever and a day, haven't they? And I am sure
:08:09. > :08:13.we will continue to be on many of the issues that we discuss but the
:08:13. > :08:20.important thing is that Labour was happy to work with other parties to
:08:20. > :08:24.establish devolution and the Scottish Parliament. Not with the
:08:24. > :08:30.Tories on that occasion. Although I think they have seen better cent
:08:30. > :08:34.since then and been converted to the cause. It is only on this very
:08:34. > :08:38.precise issue. You're not agreeing on a common programme as to what
:08:38. > :08:44.further powers might be transferred. I think there will have to be
:08:44. > :08:51.further discussion on that and all parties have to be involved.
:08:51. > :08:56.Kenneth Gibson, what did you make of the launch of Better Together?
:08:56. > :09:02.It was summed up as catatonic, so I do not think he was exactly setting
:09:02. > :09:08.of the heather alight! Leaflets were handed out on that day which
:09:08. > :09:13.talk about not getting a pension in an independent Scotland, thousands
:09:13. > :09:18.of people work for English companies. People work for many
:09:18. > :09:23.companies. And Alastair Darling saying that children will be
:09:23. > :09:33.leaving for an unknown and uncertain destination, it is all
:09:33. > :09:40.about fear mongering. Quite clearly, scaring the Scottish electorate
:09:40. > :09:44.rather than presenting a clear, positive agenda. I think it is
:09:44. > :09:50.quite interesting because the campaign for independence, if we
:09:50. > :09:54.are allowed to use that word... I'll be allowed to use that word?
:09:54. > :09:59.Independent is what we are aiming for. Even though you're
:09:59. > :10:04.psychologist tells you not to do that. I have not spoken to any
:10:04. > :10:09.psychologists! I think it is a shame that Kenny chooses to talk in
:10:09. > :10:13.the way that he has about the launch on Monday because we had
:10:13. > :10:17.people who live and work in Scotland giving us the advantage of
:10:17. > :10:23.their cues, their experiences, there are genuine fears about what
:10:23. > :10:28.the future might look like. It is not about fear, it is about the
:10:28. > :10:32.views and aspirations of the Scottish people. But you said a
:10:32. > :10:36.second ago was about their fears. If they have fears, they have to
:10:36. > :10:40.express them. We are not going to get for at least another year at
:10:40. > :10:44.the White Paper which will tell us closely what an independent
:10:44. > :10:47.Scotland would look like so people are concerned about that. But at
:10:47. > :10:54.least they are publishing a White Paper, you are not setting out in
:10:54. > :10:57.any detail what your campaign would lead to. Ever since devolution was
:10:57. > :11:03.established, the Scottish Parliament has accrued more powers
:11:03. > :11:07.from Westminster on a gradual basis. Only recently we had the powers of
:11:07. > :11:12.the new Scotland Bill and we have not begun to use those powers yet.
:11:12. > :11:16.We have to see how much those powers give us in terms of an
:11:16. > :11:21.advantage. There will be detail from Labour. We will have a
:11:21. > :11:25.commission that will discuss it across Scotland. I think we need to
:11:25. > :11:29.refute the idea that being Better Together campaign is some hope fear
:11:29. > :11:35.mongering. We are raising legitimate questions and asking for
:11:35. > :11:39.answers. We are not raising fears. Our concern is that there are
:11:39. > :11:44.general problems associated with the idea of separation that need to
:11:44. > :11:49.be addressed. For example, the air is the issue of whether taxes will
:11:49. > :11:53.be higher in an independent Scotland. Every time we go to the
:11:53. > :11:56.chamber we hear the SNP government tell us that in an independent
:11:56. > :12:01.Scotland spending will be much higher and you can only achieve
:12:01. > :12:06.that with higher taxes. referendum will be in two years and
:12:06. > :12:10.the independence, if it happened, his four years away, so can you
:12:10. > :12:14.tell me what the tax would be then? What we can talk about is whether
:12:14. > :12:24.that tax rate would be higher or lower in an independent Scotland.
:12:24. > :12:24.
:12:24. > :12:28.My concern is that it will be higher. A former Tory MP said they
:12:28. > :12:32.were touched upon Scottish airports to stop them being taken over by
:12:32. > :12:38.terrace. And those are the kind of ridiculous argument we are getting.
:12:38. > :12:44.All we want is a country like Sweden and Norway that can control
:12:44. > :12:47.its own destiny. It is legitimate, is it not, to say and to assert
:12:47. > :12:53.that taxation would be higher and it is legitimate to assert that
:12:53. > :12:59.there would be a loss of connection with UK markets? Where is the
:12:59. > :13:04.positive vision to go with this endless neck a devotee. The CBI a
:13:04. > :13:11.statement was based on their assertion that Scotland would not
:13:11. > :13:16.get its Geographic share, which we quite clearly would get. How about
:13:16. > :13:19.members of the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England
:13:20. > :13:24.guaranteeing membership of the European Union without joining the
:13:24. > :13:30.euro? If you think about what happened in reverse when East
:13:30. > :13:40.Germany joined Germany after the collapse of communism, they went
:13:40. > :13:40.
:13:40. > :13:45.into Europe straightaway. I think there is an irony when Kenneth
:13:45. > :13:50.Gibson berates others for negativity. We want to discussion
:13:50. > :13:55.about what the future of Scotland will be like. We have a clearer
:13:55. > :14:04.idea and we want to discuss that with other people. But she will not
:14:04. > :14:09.tell us what it is. Your white paper next year will say that is
:14:09. > :14:15.what independent is, where is the equivalent St what the alternative
:14:15. > :14:20.will be? Because we want to have a discussion with the people Scott
:14:20. > :14:27.and before we come with our final abuse. I'm afraid that the SNP have
:14:27. > :14:32.decided that the referendum is not going to happen at all until 2014,
:14:32. > :14:37.it then if they are not going to bring the White Paper until next
:14:37. > :14:45.year, and then the group will bring policies to meet it. We are giving
:14:45. > :14:49.people the opportunity to make this decision based on the facts.
:14:49. > :14:55.invite all three of key to harm your campaign theme music and see
:14:55. > :15:05.if we can tell the difference. Altogether now! That will clear the
:15:05. > :15:10.
:15:10. > :15:14.Perhaps any to rehearse! Is it sustainable for the pro union
:15:14. > :15:21.campaign to go into the referendum without telling what the additional
:15:21. > :15:29.powers will be until after you have voted Yes or No?
:15:29. > :15:33.They will find it very difficult to sustain that line for two years.
:15:33. > :15:40.They're trying to say that they had was the bridge in but they will not
:15:40. > :15:44.lay out the constitutional position. -- that they have a positive vision.
:15:44. > :15:54.You have seen Johanne La Mont struggle in interviews with these
:15:54. > :15:55.
:15:55. > :15:58.questions. The danger is that the eagerness to avoid a second
:15:58. > :16:07.question on devolution Max means that tactics have not been thought
:16:07. > :16:11.through. Even if the question is on the ballot paper it will have to be
:16:11. > :16:16.answered. The typical the his way up or not the parties together in
:16:16. > :16:24.the campaign can come together to an agreement. -- the difficulty is
:16:24. > :16:29.whether or not. They could be honest and admit that they do not
:16:30. > :16:35.necessarily agree. One possible position is to say, we all agree
:16:35. > :16:43.what we will Siena or 20 at the manifestos but we will tell you in
:16:43. > :16:51.advance of the referendum boat what will go in those 2050 manifestos.
:16:51. > :16:58.You but they need some body to break ranks?
:16:59. > :17:03.They certainly have to indicate a pat way towards that decision.
:17:03. > :17:08.The arguments about the endless make it a pity - at what point does
:17:08. > :17:15.endless nip up the become a legitimate concern. -- endless
:17:15. > :17:19.negativity. The SNP will certainly have to do
:17:19. > :17:24.for a seat between code of the top skier mongering and genuine
:17:24. > :17:34.questions. -- that the ANC aid between over the top skier
:17:34. > :17:38.mongering. The argument about a monetary union with another country
:17:38. > :17:42.whilst at the same time retaining fiscal autonomy, where did that
:17:42. > :17:50.position really is incredible given the lesson of the euro-zone, you
:17:50. > :18:00.have to at least have a degree of co-ordination of a fiscal policy.
:18:00. > :18:00.
:18:00. > :18:03.The SNP's will have to work out their argument and that position.
:18:03. > :18:10.The former are Lord Advocate has attacked what she describes as a
:18:10. > :18:17.vacuum of leadership regards the treatment of female prisoners. Her
:18:17. > :18:26.Commission banned it Cornton Vale prison unfit for a purpose. --
:18:26. > :18:31.bandit. The government says that this will require changes to the
:18:31. > :18:34.criminal justice system and it is beginning a consultation process.
:18:34. > :18:44.He has a flavour of the evidence given to the Holy Book Trust this
:18:44. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:53.committee. -- Holyrood Justice community.
:18:53. > :18:59.Does it do tear, does it exist -- sister community? What we know was
:18:59. > :19:08.that imprisonment is extremely expensive. It is like a revolving
:19:08. > :19:15.door for many offenders. It does not cause them to desist. We need a
:19:15. > :19:25.robust, evidence base. The current structure militate against that. A
:19:25. > :19:31.a leadership vacuum. It is not enough to her cabinet secretary
:19:31. > :19:41.Lord Justice dealing with every issue that comes up, it needs an
:19:41. > :19:43.
:19:43. > :19:47.hour chief executive to drive the dynamic forward. Part of that is
:19:47. > :19:52.because of the structure. We have a population of less than 5 million
:19:52. > :20:02.people. But any 32 separate social work departments providing services
:20:02. > :20:03.
:20:03. > :20:06.in relation to quotes. -- quotes. I do not believe that by creating a
:20:06. > :20:15.national civil justice of state would be at this connect with a
:20:15. > :20:25.social work department. The Government propose reducing
:20:25. > :20:35.reoffending fund. I took it as read that the system �0.5 million would
:20:35. > :20:42.be used towards that. -- �7.5 million. I wonder what you general
:20:42. > :20:52.view is on the sums allocated. In the prison their captive audience
:20:52. > :20:57.
:20:57. > :21:02.Most of them will receive benefits because it is very typical to get a
:21:02. > :21:10.job when you are convicted and come out of prison. -- very typical.
:21:10. > :21:15.Many of them do not get past the past do not belong or off-licence.
:21:15. > :21:22.What do you survive on? Logic would tell you that if you expedience is
:21:22. > :21:29.get money from prostitution or by stealing then you will that they
:21:29. > :21:33.looked to that. So we have set women up to fail. The difference
:21:33. > :21:37.made by a mentor who engages with him couple of weeks before they
:21:37. > :21:44.leave the prison and accompanying him on that date, getting him into
:21:44. > :21:51.supported accommodation, staying with them over the next few weeks,
:21:51. > :22:01.it is extremely impressive. For Mark as nasty as evidence to that
:22:01. > :22:02.
:22:02. > :22:08.effect. Do we must attract early on in
:22:08. > :22:16.terms of school exclusions or even before that? Are we not hear up in
:22:16. > :22:24.this country enough to detect what may be the early signs of ending?
:22:24. > :22:27.What community justice symptoms look to try to detect those things?
:22:27. > :22:31.Many women in the criminal justice system are substantially damaged.
:22:31. > :22:36.The ability to deal problems can be limited by the extent of what has
:22:36. > :22:46.gone on before. Many of them will be at Acton's of mental or physical
:22:46. > :22:46.
:22:46. > :22:51.abuse. -- will be the victims. As a prosecutor and I started off with
:22:51. > :22:58.the messianic view that I was there to help victims of crime. And to
:22:58. > :23:04.put all the bad evil people away. With an two days at the script is
:23:04. > :23:11.not mutually exclusive. Many of the victims and the accused and of a
:23:11. > :23:14.common profile. There are not many people from affluent middle-class
:23:15. > :23:22.backgrounds in prison. Poverty is an astute. Physical abuse. Low
:23:22. > :23:26.self-esteem. All these things can create barriers. There are much
:23:26. > :23:29.wider issues than we can deal with as a commission. We reflect that
:23:29. > :23:33.and say that early intervention is absolutely critical and my people
:23:33. > :23:40.come into the system could be prevented if there are ways of
:23:40. > :23:49.tackling the manifestation of ease problems and early -- manifestation
:23:49. > :23:53.of these problems at an early stage. Holy book is expected to get
:23:53. > :23:58.approval later today to a government bill. -- Holyrood. It
:23:58. > :24:01.will create single fire and police services in Scotland and see the
:24:01. > :24:09.eight regional police and can services much into single units by
:24:09. > :24:17.April next year. The government claimed that efficiency savings of
:24:17. > :24:21.�1.7 billion will be made up at the news. Opponents are sceptical. At
:24:21. > :24:28.the moment they're discussing amendments to the bill. Let's go
:24:28. > :24:32.back element and get three of the debate.
:24:32. > :24:36.The authority's ability to hold a police constable to account is
:24:36. > :24:39.wide-ranging. It allows the authority to scrutinise and
:24:39. > :24:48.challenge the chief constable in all of the functions and aspects of
:24:48. > :24:51.policing. These amendments make the role more proactive. Another
:24:51. > :24:59.amendment gives a specific function to promote a policing principles
:24:59. > :25:09.set out elsewhere. A mint 6 keep under review the authority to
:25:09. > :25:15.
:25:15. > :25:20.review policy and Scotland. -- amendments six. Amendment eat
:25:20. > :25:26.relates to the airport at the's obligation to maintain that your
:25:26. > :25:30.property is obliged to provide the Chief Constable details of how the
:25:30. > :25:34.authority tens to allocate financial resources it expects to
:25:34. > :25:38.have available to it. In respect of that financial year, as it will be
:25:38. > :25:41.important for the chief constable to know what financial resources he
:25:41. > :25:48.or she can expect to have for the year in order to be able to plan
:25:48. > :25:52.effectively. Amendment 13 and 14 strength and the accountability of
:25:52. > :25:58.the chief constable to the authority. The chief constable must
:25:58. > :26:01.endure, up and seek to endure, that the policing of Scotland is done
:26:01. > :26:08.with due regard to any recommendation of cadence is good
:26:08. > :26:13.idea Thorpe. An amendment 73 there is a proposition that a authorities
:26:13. > :26:17.should not be able to authorise any commissions to call a senior
:26:17. > :26:21.officer to resign or where appropriate retire from office in
:26:21. > :26:26.the interests of efficiency or effectiveness of police service. I
:26:26. > :26:31.cannot support this. It is for the authority to decide who will
:26:31. > :26:36.organise its functions. If it has, for example, a sub-committee, it
:26:36. > :26:40.may be entirely appropriate up at sub-committee to have the role of
:26:40. > :26:44.calling on the senior officer to resign or retire. I have made clear
:26:44. > :26:49.in my letter that I would expect the authority to respect the
:26:49. > :26:53.process it will follow in taking decisions. I fully expect at any
:26:53. > :27:03.representations made will be considered by all the authority's
:27:03. > :27:09.
:27:09. > :27:13.He I now call Lewis Macdonald. It is appropriate that
:27:13. > :27:18.consideration should begin with at the among other things of the new
:27:18. > :27:21.powers which this will have to the new national police force. Namely,
:27:21. > :27:28.the protocol on a senior officer to resign, or retire from office in
:27:28. > :27:31.the interests of efficiency and effectiveness. That immediately
:27:31. > :27:41.places: it in real terms on the operational autonomy of the chief
:27:41. > :27:42.
:27:42. > :27:46.constable. -- places a limit. Ministers Haynes 0 will appoint the
:27:46. > :27:51.members of the board of Scottish Police Authority. -- hints for.
:27:52. > :27:59.Cable up a parrot to reappoint him on not four years later. Added
:27:59. > :28:04.powers to veto the appointment of the chief constable. Although, of
:28:04. > :28:08.course they will have to consult ministers for its. These poems
:28:08. > :28:15.which have to be abused only wants to bring the whole system into
:28:15. > :28:22.disrepute. -- these parrots. The result could well be the removal
:28:23. > :28:29.the chief officer who holds Paras have a wide array admit any
:28:29. > :28:32.previous chief officer in Scotland. There must be we are safeguards
:28:32. > :28:39.Parliament can supply to protect chief of staff from undue into
:28:39. > :28:45.fields. I will table a similar men did stage to win the Government
:28:45. > :28:47.requires the protocol retirement in the interests of efficiency. Amends
:28:47. > :28:51.at the Three choirs simply that the power to require timing and
:28:51. > :28:55.resignation should not be delegated to a small group with members of
:28:55. > :28:59.the authority. It should be the responsibility of all members
:28:59. > :29:08.acting together. That is a modest change which recognises that there
:29:08. > :29:18.are no skier. -- there are risks here. We welcome the government
:29:18. > :29:23.amendment to opt Secretary will think again.
:29:23. > :29:27.These matters, I understand the concerns raised. I have met with
:29:27. > :29:29.the member myself. But we have made it quite clear that these are
:29:30. > :29:35.matters body of poverty which is recognised ultimately by Mr
:29:35. > :29:39.McDonald. His position is will be dealt with by a full tour at the
:29:39. > :29:43.altar and to be the ability to delegate it to a sub-committee.
:29:43. > :29:50.They will be charged with a good governance, representation will be
:29:50. > :29:56.made, organisations that all one from him, then that basis it seems
:29:56. > :30:01.to me that we take into account the services are used sparingly by the
:30:01. > :30:06.authority. Where it us and it has to be used then it should be a
:30:06. > :30:08.matter for a pop at authority to decide how it handles it. As was
:30:08. > :30:18.referred to an initial instances, doubtless have the authority member
:30:18. > :30:23.
:30:23. > :30:30.It will ensure local authorities are not out of pocket from the
:30:30. > :30:40.creation of a single force and help protect scrutiny of local policing
:30:40. > :30:42.
:30:42. > :30:46.and enhance accountability. Turning to a man and 47 A. -- amendment.
:30:46. > :30:53.The Bill states that a local police plan is to be prepared and
:30:53. > :30:57.submitted to the authority for approval. The plan can be amended
:30:58. > :31:01.on the agreement of the commander and the local authority. The Bill
:31:01. > :31:06.provides no more detail of what happens when the local commander
:31:06. > :31:13.and the local authority cannot agree. Section 48 is not clear what
:31:13. > :31:19.happens if the local for two does not approve a plan. Our amendment
:31:19. > :31:28.places an obligation on the therapy to draw up a mechanism for what
:31:28. > :31:31.happens when local commanders disagree on a plan. It will provide
:31:31. > :31:41.clarity when there is no disagreement. It is also designed
:31:41. > :31:53.
:31:53. > :32:01.to avoid local commanders avoiding the wishes of local authorities. It
:32:01. > :32:07.does a disservice to the professionalism of both local
:32:07. > :32:11.councils and commanders. The alternative is that the Bill is
:32:11. > :32:16.totally silent on what happened when there is a disagreement. The
:32:16. > :32:26.amendment would place an additional protection on local accountability
:32:26. > :32:29.
:32:29. > :32:35.by requiring the authority to submit a dispute procedure. I fully
:32:35. > :32:41.support all the amendments in this group. The Bill as it stands is
:32:41. > :32:46.woefully short on troop local accountability. They lack any real
:32:46. > :32:52.authority -- role for Michael authorities in certain policing
:32:52. > :33:00.priorities. The measures are vital if local authorities are to have
:33:00. > :33:07.any realistic hope of Monetary home services are working in their area
:33:07. > :33:16.-- monitoring. Local authorities would effectively be operating in
:33:16. > :33:21.the dark. Prime Minister's Questions was
:33:21. > :33:31.dominated by House of Lords reform. And there was also something about
:33:31. > :33:42.
:33:42. > :33:46.various Duke turned. -- U-turns. it not stupid to vote for House of
:33:46. > :33:52.Lords reform but against the motion? We have been discussing
:33:52. > :34:02.this issue for 100 years and it really is time to make progress.
:34:02. > :34:06.There are our opponents of Lords reform in every party. But there is
:34:06. > :34:11.a majority in this house for an elected House of Lords and I
:34:11. > :34:14.believe there is a majority for that in the country. But if those
:34:14. > :34:20.who support Lord reform do not get out there and back it will not
:34:20. > :34:25.happen. That is the crucial point. It is hopeless in life and in
:34:25. > :34:29.politics to do what the right honourable Gentleman is doing,
:34:29. > :34:39.which is to say he is in favour of it and also against it. It is
:34:39. > :34:43.
:34:43. > :34:52.hopeless. Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister said on 11th April, I will
:34:52. > :35:02.defend every part of that budget, I've worked on it very closely with
:35:02. > :35:02.
:35:02. > :35:12.the Chancellor of the Exchequer, line by line. Mr Speaker, what went
:35:12. > :35:18.
:35:18. > :35:24.wrong? The fuel duty increase was a Labour tax rise. It cannot be eight
:35:24. > :35:29.U-turn to get rid of a Labour tax increase. They put in place 12
:35:29. > :35:34.increases in fuel duty in government, they left behind six
:35:34. > :35:38.increases, and I'm proud of the fact we are dealing with them.
:35:38. > :35:43.Would he take the opportunity to remind the House that there is a
:35:43. > :35:45.crucial EU summit at the end of this week? Which is more important
:35:45. > :35:52.for UK growth and jobs, the implications of these massive
:35:52. > :35:56.changes being proposed in the EU, or House of Lords reform? In terms
:35:56. > :36:00.of growth in the UK economy, what is happening in the eurozone and in
:36:00. > :36:05.Europe is extremely important and it is a vital summit taking place
:36:05. > :36:09.on Thursday and Friday. The UK government has a clear view which
:36:09. > :36:14.is the eurozone come -- countries need to do more in the short term
:36:14. > :36:19.to settle the markets but they also need to take my gym and longer term
:36:20. > :36:25.steps to make sense of the eurozone. That will involve them sharing
:36:25. > :36:29.greater powers but that is not something the UK is involved in. We
:36:29. > :36:35.put forward an argument with great vigour and we will protect and
:36:35. > :36:39.defend the UK economy and political system at the same time. Will the
:36:39. > :36:46.Prime Minister finally answer the question why his government has
:36:46. > :36:51.borrowed �3.9 billion more than they did this time last year?
:36:51. > :36:57.deficit is down by a quarter. And the policy that he supports is to
:36:57. > :37:02.spend four, to borrow more and to put the debt up even further.
:37:02. > :37:07.years ago, the steel works in my constituency was forced to close
:37:07. > :37:13.and thousands of steelmaking jobs were lost. Sadly, many of my
:37:13. > :37:18.colleagues never found work again. 20 years on, will the Prime
:37:18. > :37:23.Minister apologise for his party's shameful role in the demise of the
:37:23. > :37:28.Scottish steel industry? I am sorry for every job that has been lost in
:37:28. > :37:33.manufacturing industry over a long period of time. But while
:37:33. > :37:38.manufacturing as a share almost halved under the last government,
:37:39. > :37:44.that share is now increasing. Under this government the steel industry
:37:45. > :37:50.has started again on Teesside. can cross back to David Porter and
:37:50. > :37:57.his desk there. As we saw from that excerpt, there
:37:57. > :38:03.was no shortage of topics to discuss. I am joined by three MPs
:38:03. > :38:09.who know the Scottish political system pretty intimately, Russell
:38:09. > :38:13.Brown for Labour, David Mundell, the Scottish Office minister, and
:38:13. > :38:19.Lord John Thurso for the Liberal Democrat. You were hereditary
:38:19. > :38:26.member of the laws on the New Left in 1999, so it is probably best to
:38:26. > :38:30.start with you. Your view on plans to reform the Lords? Broadly,
:38:31. > :38:35.excellent. It is high time we reformed this anachronism and had a
:38:35. > :38:41.Judy elected House of Lords and I'm delighted that Nick Clegg has stuck
:38:41. > :38:48.to his guns, has got the support of the Cabinet, and is now going to do
:38:48. > :38:55.what we have been waiting for for 150 years. Why embark on something
:38:55. > :38:59.that is could be so fraught politically? Labour, the Liberal
:38:59. > :39:09.Democrats and Daz Celts went into the last election with manifesto
:39:09. > :39:11.
:39:11. > :39:17.commitments to reform the House of Claude. -- ourselves. -- of the
:39:17. > :39:22.House of Lords. Letters seized his opportunity and fitted done. That
:39:22. > :39:28.does not take months someone's talking about it. I find it bizarre
:39:28. > :39:33.that the same people who say it is taking valuable parliamentary time
:39:33. > :39:39.in 10 to vote for a motion to give it even more time. Everyone who
:39:39. > :39:43.supports small proportion rally round the proposals. A bit of a dig
:39:43. > :39:51.at your party there, saying that he won this reform but that you want
:39:51. > :39:56.more time to discuss it. We are determined, along with the two
:39:56. > :40:03.other main political parties, to see that change take place. We have
:40:03. > :40:08.waited over 100 years for this. We do not want a rushed, botched job
:40:08. > :40:13.here. That is why we are prepared to support the bill at second
:40:13. > :40:18.reading but a programme motion that would guillotine this is not
:40:18. > :40:23.appropriate. We will want to spend more time, and even if it does take
:40:23. > :40:27.six months, then so be it, but we have to get it right so that when
:40:28. > :40:35.it leaves the Commons it is in some kind of shape that a lot can take
:40:35. > :40:41.on board and deal with it in an appropriate manner. When you speak
:40:41. > :40:45.to your constituents and you hold your surgery, does anyone say to
:40:45. > :40:51.you that they are really concerned about Lords reform? No one has ever
:40:51. > :40:59.come into my surgery and said I am against Lords reform. Every single
:40:59. > :41:04.piece of legislation that affects people's lives, from health and
:41:04. > :41:09.social security, education, all of it, goes through the Lords. Because
:41:09. > :41:14.it is currently not democratically legitimate it is not able to give
:41:14. > :41:20.proper scrutiny. Therefore I find nobody in the street who is opposed
:41:20. > :41:26.to putting democracy in the Lords. This is not a botched job. This is
:41:26. > :41:31.a piece of work that builds on work that Jack Straw did and which have
:41:31. > :41:34.been discussed for decades. It is buried considered and all of the
:41:34. > :41:44.Labour colleagues Bob one on the joint committee that I served on
:41:44. > :41:50.were happy to support it. If you give the Lord more power, there
:41:50. > :41:56.will be people saying that if they are elected they can be a real
:41:56. > :42:01.counterweight to the House of Commons. The Lords has the role
:42:01. > :42:05.already to be a counterweight to the House of Commons in terms of
:42:05. > :42:09.the scrutiny that they are able to do. Might you what the Lords has
:42:09. > :42:17.changed enormously since being a member of this Parliament because I
:42:17. > :42:23.know the level of work and they do -- at my view. I think we have all
:42:23. > :42:28.seen through the recent years that the appointments system is simply
:42:28. > :42:33.not satisfactory and the only way to get people who are accountable,
:42:33. > :42:38.whose appointment cannot be challenged, is to have them
:42:38. > :42:45.directly elected, and that is why I favour a directly elected system.
:42:45. > :42:50.If you end up voting against this and say you want more time, you may
:42:50. > :42:54.not get the legislation you have wanted. I think we will get the
:42:54. > :43:01.legislation but the problem is that the appropriate time. I think over
:43:01. > :43:06.the last couple of years, did not have done a terror -- a tremendous
:43:06. > :43:10.job of holding this coalition government to account. I agree
:43:10. > :43:17.there is a role there. It is how that is configured going forward.
:43:17. > :43:23.We now have over 800 Peers in that place. We need to get it down to
:43:23. > :43:30.300. Let us move to another subject, and fuel duty and the decision not
:43:30. > :43:38.to increase it. I am sure you will welcome that are not the confused
:43:38. > :43:42.way it was announced. I do welcome the reduction. In the far north,
:43:42. > :43:45.fuel is an amazingly large component of people's budget. I
:43:45. > :43:50.applaud the way the government have done it because I always have the
:43:50. > :43:55.we could not cut fuel duty or stop the increase until we had found the
:43:55. > :43:59.money to pay for it. The way the government had done it, by using
:43:59. > :44:04.surplus administrative funds not used earlier in the year is an
:44:04. > :44:09.extremely responsible way to have gone about it. I am content that we
:44:09. > :44:16.are both looking after hard-pressed families in this coalition and at
:44:16. > :44:21.the same time being responsible about maintaining the work on the
:44:21. > :44:26.deficit. It seemed an odd way to go about it, briefing one day that it
:44:26. > :44:30.cannot happen, and the next day it happens. What we have to be pleased
:44:30. > :44:35.about is that this is the right decision. I have been lobbying for
:44:35. > :44:40.this decision because it is the right one for particularly the
:44:40. > :44:48.rural motorists in Scotland. Petrol is 10 pence a litre cheaper than it
:44:48. > :44:53.would have been under the Labour Government's proposals. It is
:44:53. > :44:58.absolutely the right decision. And I have lobbied long and hard, as I
:44:58. > :45:08.did under a Labour government. But it is the manner in which it has
:45:08. > :45:11.been done. Only seven days ago, the government said it was not possible.
:45:11. > :45:16.When the Secretary of State for Transport did not know this was
:45:16. > :45:20.coming, cabinet ministers did not know it was coming, it was a rush
:45:20. > :45:30.job not one I am pleased to see has happened. A note of agreement are
:45:30. > :45:36.
:45:36. > :45:44.on fuel tax. But perhaps not the Let go back to Holyer it. The
:45:44. > :45:51.better to get our campaign. -- holy writ. I am joined pilot will
:45:51. > :45:55.Denmark and the Greens leaders. Can we get some clarity on when the
:45:55. > :46:00.either the better to go there campaign as acute, of will that
:46:00. > :46:03.will Democrats as a section with an acute, will make it clear to the
:46:03. > :46:13.Scottish public what the extra Paras will be if they say no to
:46:13. > :46:20.
:46:20. > :46:25.That will come forward and the autumn. The question is what we
:46:25. > :46:29.stay in the UK. That will come first.
:46:29. > :46:32.If people do not know what a additional powers are what you make
:46:32. > :46:36.it known for the general election or for the subsequent Scottish
:46:36. > :46:41.election? At what point do you cross the electorate to make an
:46:41. > :46:44.informed decision? People will get the information
:46:44. > :46:49.from local Democrat perspective as to how much for there we would like
:46:49. > :46:53.to go. By what timescale?
:46:53. > :46:59.The results of the commission will be launched by the autumn. But you
:46:59. > :47:06.can trust the Liberal Democrats. We have cracked record. We'd love and
:47:06. > :47:14.the Scotland Act. We have a track record of delivering more per was
:47:14. > :47:17.At Catterick are they? Do you except at summon the his campaign
:47:17. > :47:20.say that if you challenge these ideas or if you ask questions in
:47:20. > :47:29.your scaremongering? Should Labour must be some questions that are
:47:29. > :47:34.perfectly legitimate? I agree. I have been making that
:47:34. > :47:40.case with the in the debate amongst supporters of the best boat. I
:47:40. > :47:43.think that both the US and the No side, the independence and her to
:47:43. > :47:52.to get a sight, a responsibility to make sure that people as well as
:47:52. > :47:56.formal as possible. Both sides are going to need the whole of the two
:47:56. > :48:04.years that we have to go to thrash out some of those answers. Those
:48:04. > :48:08.who want Scotland to both know do need to be clear. They're going to
:48:08. > :48:11.happen up a consensus between themselves. It is the parties that
:48:11. > :48:15.dominate Westminster and not Scotland would be able to put at
:48:15. > :48:19.off-fore and make it real. The pro independence side, we need to be
:48:19. > :48:23.very clear about what kind of independent Scotland B are trying
:48:23. > :48:28.to create. I do not think that people who are as yet unconvinced
:48:28. > :48:32.but not hostile will be convinced to change their minds unless they
:48:32. > :48:38.see how a radical transformation or an agenda of change in an
:48:38. > :48:41.independent Scotland will benefit all society.
:48:41. > :48:47.Let's talk about something else debated today - the single police
:48:47. > :48:51.force and the single fire falls. Do you have concerns about the chief
:48:51. > :48:58.constable in the police force being a politicised role? How independent
:48:58. > :49:02.will be be? Patrick and I agree on this. We are
:49:02. > :49:07.at one that a single Paul Scholes will centralise and politicised her
:49:07. > :49:15.or too much and will not have the central power of safeguards. -- a
:49:15. > :49:21.single police force. Patrick and I probably agree on this even though
:49:21. > :49:25.we do not agree and independence. People want to know what the
:49:25. > :49:33.politicisation of the police means, what does it mean in practice? How
:49:33. > :49:38.important could it be? Story, that question is for Patrick Harvey.
:49:38. > :49:41.It potentially create a national chief constable could come to rival
:49:41. > :49:46.a justice minister in terms of political cloud. That could become
:49:46. > :49:50.a source of tension. He was a need for accountability at national and
:49:50. > :49:55.local level. It makes the job of accountability within the police
:49:55. > :50:05.more, not less complex. I fear that it will not even see the money that
:50:05. > :50:08.the Government has protecting. -- is predicting.
:50:08. > :50:15.Is the local police commissioner suggestion of the Conservatives a
:50:15. > :50:19.good idea? You must have clear lines of
:50:19. > :50:22.accountability. You cannot have accountability at a local level and
:50:22. > :50:26.the national level. The commissioners idea from our
:50:26. > :50:32.perspective is not the way for up. We would rather keep all these
:50:32. > :50:36.local and accountability to the local community. -- the way for all.
:50:37. > :50:43.Day today, things could be OK, but it is in times of crisis that
:50:43. > :50:50.problems could emerge. Centralising power in two of the people is when
:50:50. > :50:54.things go wrong, it is why you need safeguards.
:50:54. > :50:58.If we look at the referendum issue, I want to ask about the idea of
:50:58. > :51:02.talking to people, attempting to formulate something, BA be up this
:51:02. > :51:05.second question. It seems at the moment that people can attach what
:51:06. > :51:12.a for the want to devolution Acts. It means desperate things to do
:51:12. > :51:17.spigots. Well this the farm up in any way? Will then be a democratic
:51:17. > :51:21.mandate but for? There are a number of organisations
:51:21. > :51:27.attempting to come up with some alternative view as to what the
:51:27. > :51:30.future of Scotland to be. As you help, Willie Rennie's party, the
:51:30. > :51:34.Liberal Democrats, they have a proposal that Ming Campbell
:51:34. > :51:37.suggesting. Chauhan on what his APPLAUSE mission inside the
:51:37. > :51:43.Scottish Labour Party. Reform Scotland has been very
:51:43. > :51:49.active. There is a Labour group that
:51:49. > :51:58.emerged earlier this week that is looking at these things. The
:51:58. > :52:00.Institute for Public Policy Research are looking at things.
:52:00. > :52:04.People in favour of more devolution will have to work out how these
:52:04. > :52:07.ideas are going to be brought together. Some consensus will have
:52:07. > :52:13.to be created and that a more that it is not by any means clear how
:52:13. > :52:18.that will happen. Of course, following the original proposals in
:52:18. > :52:24.1997, and to the Scottish Convention, and the extension to
:52:24. > :52:30.the Scotland Act, was the resort of a joint party commission. -- was
:52:30. > :52:34.the result. So the process is on clear. To that extent it least, the
:52:34. > :52:39.answers we do not know. The suggestion of Willie Rennie is that
:52:39. > :52:46.if the parties put something India 2050 manifestoes then something
:52:46. > :52:52.might emerge at of that. So we have to take it on trust.
:52:52. > :52:54.Exactly. Looking for what if there is an independent Scotland will
:52:54. > :53:00.there be disowned revising chamber will that be a Scottish roots of
:53:00. > :53:03.Lords? At the moment we do have a
:53:03. > :53:08.unicameral legislator. Scotland is responsible for taxation and
:53:08. > :53:11.welfare benefits. There are clearly questions about whether Scotland
:53:11. > :53:15.would need to write it on new constitution. One of the issues
:53:15. > :53:25.then will be should it be a second chamber?
:53:25. > :53:25.
:53:25. > :53:34.Has and he would be in it? Or yes, I sit tight set up. -- etc
:53:34. > :53:39.etc. It is not entirely clear that existing purposes will be
:53:39. > :53:44.appropriate for an independent country.