:00:20. > :00:26.Hello and welcome to another edition of Politics Scotland. Coming up, 24
:00:27. > :00:30.hours on after the launch of the white paper, MSPs debated in
:00:31. > :00:34.Parliament. Politicians have now had a chance to
:00:35. > :00:39.digest the contents of the hefty tome. Full independence supporters
:00:40. > :00:42.will be singing its praises, pro-unionists will be taking it
:00:43. > :00:47.apart. Here at Westminster, David Cameron
:00:48. > :00:53.says the white paper leaves a huge number of unanswered questions.
:00:54. > :00:57.The international media descended on Scotland yesterday for the launch of
:00:58. > :01:04.this. Politicians on both sides of the debate have been picking over
:01:05. > :01:08.the paper and so have we. Joining me is Professor John Curtice from
:01:09. > :01:14.Strathclyde University. Good afternoon.
:01:15. > :01:23.Let us first go to Holyrood and pick-up with our political editor
:01:24. > :01:29.Brian Taylor. A very busy afternoon for you
:01:30. > :01:34.yesterday. What are MSPs saying about the white paper today?
:01:35. > :01:41.Alistair Darling was holding a press conference this morning.
:01:42. > :01:46.We will have a substantive debate this afternoon. We had a brief taste
:01:47. > :01:55.of that yesterday. This is a full Holyrood debate. The First Minister
:01:56. > :02:07.announced further details about the childcare offer which is at the core
:02:08. > :02:15.of the independence of. They will be extending their eventually to
:02:16. > :02:23.one-year-olds. He says it is worth as much as ?4600 per child to each
:02:24. > :02:30.family. He says it is only possible under independence because it will
:02:31. > :02:34.release people to go back to work and if they were to do that
:02:35. > :02:48.currently, the tax take would go to the Treasury. Alistair Darling said
:02:49. > :02:54.the white paper skimped on financial details. He said it was
:02:55. > :03:04.overoptimistic on oil and didn't take account of transitional costs.
:03:05. > :03:07.I expect Alex Salmond to pick up on some of those points when he makes
:03:08. > :03:14.his statement. We will have that statement in a few
:03:15. > :03:19.minutes. In this debate this afternoon, are we going to look at a
:03:20. > :03:31.sustained attack from the prounion parties against the white paper?
:03:32. > :03:36.Very much so. The arguments is that the costs are being downplayed. We
:03:37. > :03:44.will get accusations from the Conservatives and others that's the
:03:45. > :03:57.issue of the European Union, a shared currency and so on have not
:03:58. > :04:05.been answered. Alex Salmond believes it will be in the interests of both
:04:06. > :04:11.sides to keep the status quo. We will be able to absorb the details
:04:12. > :04:17.of this issue. Quite rightly, Parliament is able to express that.
:04:18. > :04:28.We have waited a long time for the white paper. How do you think the
:04:29. > :04:37.debate will proceed from now? Will there be an onus on the
:04:38. > :04:43.pro-unionists now? It goes down to lines, the line of assurances that
:04:44. > :04:54.Alex Salmond is offering over keeping the pound and the Queen
:04:55. > :05:01.etc, and this big offer on welfare, enhanced pensions, enhanced
:05:02. > :05:07.childcare and a promise to scrap the bedroom tax. We will hear the
:05:08. > :05:13.opposition try to take that apart this afternoon.
:05:14. > :05:20.The man who needs no introduction after a very busy day yesterday,
:05:21. > :05:27.Professor John Curtice. You were looking at the report yesterday, now
:05:28. > :05:37.you have had the chance to digest it, what are your initial
:05:38. > :05:48.impressions? . The first minister has been able
:05:49. > :06:04.to come through with an iconic policy, that of childcare. Given
:06:05. > :06:12.that one of the problems that faces Scotland's is that it is relatively
:06:13. > :06:20.short of people of the working age population, the childcare issue is a
:06:21. > :06:25.way of addressing that. That said, what really struck me about this
:06:26. > :06:31.document was in fact how fiscally conservative it is. Those
:06:32. > :06:42.childcare, says are about what might be done by 2020 or 2025. There are
:06:43. > :06:52.only small promises regarding what can be done in 2016. There is
:06:53. > :06:59.nothing in here in the form of a tax break for the individual ordinarily
:07:00. > :07:06.voter and, to that extent, if indeed it is true, and my reading is that
:07:07. > :07:11.it is, that's people want to be convinced that Scotland's economy
:07:12. > :07:18.will be better and they want more money in their pockets, it is not
:07:19. > :07:31.clear how the independence would put more money in people 's pockets. To
:07:32. > :07:39.that extent, what we are discovering is that having to run this
:07:40. > :07:44.referendum against the backdrop of Scotland's having better public
:07:45. > :07:50.finances than the rest of the UK but still being an deficit. In other
:07:51. > :07:57.words, to understand this document, you have to look at not only what it
:07:58. > :08:07.says but what it doesn't talk about, such as immediate tax breaks
:08:08. > :08:14.or increased public spending. You mentioned the individual voter.
:08:15. > :08:21.The normal person in the street. We have seen some reaction on news
:08:22. > :08:31.programmes yesterday. Europe erstwhile colleague Dr Jim Mitchell
:08:32. > :08:36.was speaking about it. What impact does this document have normal
:08:37. > :08:42.voters? The truth is that not many people
:08:43. > :08:49.will read this. Some will have read the summary is in today's
:08:50. > :09:03.newspapers. But the crucial thing is that it gets the message more
:09:04. > :09:14.clearly? If people think the yes side know what they are doing, that
:09:15. > :09:19.is what is important. There is some sense of progress on that front.
:09:20. > :09:27.That childcare policy will get the headlines. Some will say that we now
:09:28. > :09:33.have some detail but you can see the limitations. That comes from the
:09:34. > :09:44.fact that on so many things such as currency, energy markets, the BBC,
:09:45. > :09:47.what's this document envisages is a close collaboration between an
:09:48. > :09:56.independent Scotland and the rest of the UK and you cannot be certain
:09:57. > :10:08.about that collaboration. Let us go to the Holyrood chamber
:10:09. > :10:16.now and watch some of the debate. The choice between taking the future
:10:17. > :10:21.into our own hands or allowing decisions to be made by governments
:10:22. > :10:32.that have been overwhelmingly rejected by the people of Scotland.
:10:33. > :10:37.We address 650 questions and set out how we can build a fairer and more
:10:38. > :10:43.prosperous and democratic country. It is the most comprehensive look
:10:44. > :10:52.print for independence published for any country at anywhere at any time.
:10:53. > :10:58.A lot of the response of its was sadly predictable. In that vein, I
:10:59. > :11:04.will give way. Talking about other countries, can
:11:05. > :11:11.the First Minister tell me whether his government has received any
:11:12. > :11:17.feedback from any other EU country about Scotland's membership of the
:11:18. > :11:28.European Union and whether that would be difficult?
:11:29. > :11:37.I will arrange for him to get a full briefing. On the question of sadly
:11:38. > :11:42.predictable, there was some sadly predictable reaction from the Better
:11:43. > :11:47.Together campaign. Within an hour of the publication, Alistair Darling
:11:48. > :11:53.said it was ridiculous and not of any worth. I must congratulate that
:11:54. > :12:05.man on speed reading. By my estimation, that is 3000 words a
:12:06. > :12:10.minute. The reality is this for all of the Better Together parties, the
:12:11. > :12:17.ball is now firmly in the Unionist court. They need to provide answers
:12:18. > :12:23.to fundamental questions about Scotland. Yesterday 's debates did
:12:24. > :12:30.bring us to something very important in terms of Scotland's future.
:12:31. > :12:38.Aileen Campbell and I visited a site a few hundred metres up the road
:12:39. > :12:43.that provides clear to children. It was established in 2002 when all
:12:44. > :12:53.three and four-year-olds became entitled to two education and care.
:12:54. > :13:02.The entitlement was 412 hours per year but increased to 475 hours and
:13:03. > :13:06.will rise to 600 hours next year. But our ambitions are greater than
:13:07. > :13:15.that. As outlined in the white paper, in the first budget after
:13:16. > :13:21.independence, we will commence to extending the hours of care. By the
:13:22. > :13:36.end of the first parliament, we will invest ?600 million. Our longer-term
:13:37. > :13:41.ambition is to make this care available to all children from the
:13:42. > :13:53.age of one. It would give families a total saving of 4600 hours of care
:13:54. > :14:01.per year. -- saving them for days and ?600.
:14:02. > :14:06.This transformational policy is a policy which is about independence
:14:07. > :14:12.for Scotland. I give way. Given that he says the price tag for
:14:13. > :14:29.peas one is ?100 million, why has he not done it already? -- price tag
:14:30. > :14:37.for the one. The budget is not 100 million to do
:14:38. > :14:43.what's I just described, it is ?700 million. Let us remember that the
:14:44. > :14:48.Conservative Party have committed themselves to a reduction in income
:14:49. > :14:59.tax which will blow another vast hole in the Scottish budget. I would
:15:00. > :15:05.be delighted to hear where they are going to get that under the current
:15:06. > :15:08.settlement. One point made yesterday was that independence gives us the
:15:09. > :15:15.opportunity to make choices, spend less on weapons of mass destruction
:15:16. > :15:19.and more on educating our children. There are other ways to get ?700
:15:20. > :15:27.million. And the theme of something for nothing, you could gain ?700
:15:28. > :15:41.million by cutting free personal care for the elderly, scrapping
:15:42. > :15:46.prescription charges, but they are not policies that this government
:15:47. > :15:54.would do. Sacrificing the great games of devolution. That sort of
:15:55. > :15:59.investment can come from economic growth and expansion in the economy
:16:00. > :16:07.by a rise in female perturbation in the workforce. A 6-point rise in
:16:08. > :16:13.female patient, getting the rates of Scotland up to Swedish levels, would
:16:14. > :16:19.get more than 100,000 women back into the Labour Party. That lack the
:16:20. > :16:26.Labour market. You need to invest the money, which means you need the
:16:27. > :16:33.money upfront, which means you need to invest immediately. You could do
:16:34. > :16:38.that now, surely. I thought we would get an explanation of whether it was
:16:39. > :16:42.concessionary travel or free personal care which was her target.
:16:43. > :16:49.That is why we edify the savings from cutting the weapons of mass
:16:50. > :16:53.destruction in Scotland. But it is the case if we can achieve that 6%
:16:54. > :17:00.rise in e-mail participation, which is achievable, given over the last
:17:01. > :17:04.year there has been a 3% rise in female employment in Scotland, then
:17:05. > :17:14.we would get huge increases in revenues. That 6% gap, would
:17:15. > :17:20.increase Scotland's economic output by 2.2 billion and raise taxation
:17:21. > :17:27.revenues across the range of taxation by ?700 million. At present
:17:28. > :17:30.those tax revenues, any savings from welfare payments go straight back to
:17:31. > :17:35.Westminster. In an independent Scotland, we would retain and be
:17:36. > :17:42.able to invest the savings in the future. A childcare revolution is a
:17:43. > :17:51.transformation impossible under devolution but with independence we
:17:52. > :17:57.can implement. Alistair Darling said employment in Scotland rises, and I
:17:58. > :18:01.quote, those taxes go to the Treasury and come back to Scotland
:18:02. > :18:09.through funding. This man was Chancellor of the Exchequer. Does he
:18:10. > :18:12.not know that concerns spending, not revenue? If revenue rises in
:18:13. > :18:23.Scotland, it disappears into the London Treasury. Just in case there
:18:24. > :18:29.is any dispute about this, the IPPR, not a think tank associated with
:18:30. > :18:34.independence, in fact they don't support independence, but their blog
:18:35. > :18:40.said the SNP was right that many fiscal benefits with low in the form
:18:41. > :18:44.of increased benefits to Her Majesty's Treasury. That is the
:18:45. > :18:49.difference between controlling the balance sheet of an independent
:18:50. > :18:54.Scotland and being caught in the straight jacket of Westminster where
:18:55. > :18:57.we are at the present moment, a straitjacket which will get a lot
:18:58. > :19:07.tighter under the Conservative Party. AM interested he mentions the
:19:08. > :19:10.IPPR, who also said last night the Scottish Government's white paper is
:19:11. > :19:16.a piece of fantasy economics. Other than a contentious assertion the tax
:19:17. > :19:19.base north of the border is stronger than the rest of the UK, it is
:19:20. > :19:26.unclear how any of this can be paid for. The point I made in terms of
:19:27. > :19:31.the IPPR not supporting independence, that was my point, but
:19:32. > :19:39.on the question revenue, they say the SNP is right. There has been an
:19:40. > :19:44.assumption of Unionist parties, this is at the heart of this debate, we
:19:45. > :19:48.have demonstrated through an expansion of childcare, a
:19:49. > :19:53.transformation in opportunities for Scottish children, an increase in
:19:54. > :19:58.production by -- participation rates of women in the workforce, the
:19:59. > :20:02.revenues would flow into the Scottish Treasury which would enable
:20:03. > :20:08.that plan to be funded. We want to know from unionists how it happens
:20:09. > :20:12.under devolution without dramatic cuts from Joanne Lamont's cuts
:20:13. > :20:17.commission on things like free personal care, things like
:20:18. > :20:21.concessionary travel and student fees which would also be in the
:20:22. > :20:26.target line. He is option has been that if we don't have independence
:20:27. > :20:34.everything will continue as it is. What I want to say now is that what
:20:35. > :20:43.not the case. In the last general election campaign, a quote, we want
:20:44. > :20:48.to see are not scrapped. Last weekend he went even further, there
:20:49. > :20:53.will be no action taken on by not until the economy has stabilised
:20:54. > :20:57.again. Given that George Osborne tells us the economy is stabilising,
:20:58. > :21:07.that must be soon. Ruth Davidson told the Sun not to quote on BBC but
:21:08. > :21:12.the quote on Barnett was only supposed to be temporary. On 2014,
:21:13. > :21:20.the ground has shifted since devolution, and just two days ago, a
:21:21. > :21:23.report was published by the Westminster All-Party Parliamentary
:21:24. > :21:28.Group on taxation recommending in the case of a no vote, the Barnett
:21:29. > :21:33.formula must be we placed with a needs -based formula. The best
:21:34. > :21:39.alternative using the seven indicators of need a vilified by the
:21:40. > :21:45.commission. -- identified by the commission. We know what is in mind
:21:46. > :21:49.from the Westminster parties because we know exactly what the commission
:21:50. > :21:56.recommendations would mean for Scottish spending. They published an
:21:57. > :22:00.article in evidential times in 2010. It would mean a cut in
:22:01. > :22:09.Scottish spending of up to 4000 million pounds per year. We could
:22:10. > :22:13.say that is just one proposal. The SDC estimate the cut might be 2000
:22:14. > :22:18.million pounds a year. The UK Government will give any indication
:22:19. > :22:22.about what might happen to the Barnett formula if we remain in the
:22:23. > :22:27.UK but that stance of keeping it quiet until after the referendum is
:22:28. > :22:31.unsustainable. The Government has set out our case for independence.
:22:32. > :22:37.What we want to hear from the Better Together parties is how we'll do
:22:38. > :22:46.Better Together rate be in the Scottish budget Scotland votes no?
:22:47. > :22:50.Certain things we agree on. We agree and we know that over the last 30
:22:51. > :22:56.years, Scotland has contributed far more in relative terms to the UK
:22:57. > :23:02.budget then we received. We know in the last five years that amounts to
:23:03. > :23:09.12,000 million pounds, over ?2000 a head for every man woman and child.
:23:10. > :23:16.We know Scotland contributes 9.9% of the UK's taxation and gets back 9.3%
:23:17. > :23:21.of spending, but that 9.3% will be targeted by the Better Together
:23:22. > :23:26.campaign. They will cut Scotland's budget with no reflection or
:23:27. > :23:31.understanding of the massive contribution Scotland has made to UK
:23:32. > :23:35.finances and will continue to make, so where we have the debate about
:23:36. > :23:40.the vision of Scottish society laid out in the white paper, no longer
:23:41. > :23:44.will it be contrasted against the silence of the Better Together
:23:45. > :23:49.campaign. It will be contrasted against a future where we see low
:23:50. > :23:53.growth in the population and economy and Scotland subjected to the
:23:54. > :24:00.severest cuts in political history, over and above the retrenchment of
:24:01. > :24:06.the last few years. Or we can go forward to a growing economy, a
:24:07. > :24:10.growing society, we can help our children and benefit from the
:24:11. > :24:16.strength of our natural resources. We can combine these resources with
:24:17. > :24:21.our intelligence and ingenuity and create a new society. Politics are
:24:22. > :24:25.about choices and the choice next year will be between that new
:24:26. > :24:31.society with a future offered by Better Together, which for many
:24:32. > :24:37.Scots will be no future at all. The First Minister live in Parliament.
:24:38. > :24:41.We will dip back in later. A joint again by Professor John Curtice. A
:24:42. > :24:45.lot about childcare at the beginning of the speech and then it went on to
:24:46. > :24:50.an attack on the Better Together partners, accusing the Coalition
:24:51. > :24:54.Government of wanting to cut the Barnett formula, the mechanism used
:24:55. > :25:02.for public expenditure here in Scotland. Maybe a surprising
:25:03. > :25:09.attack. I don't think so. The SNP have been saying by is going to go
:25:10. > :25:16.but following the provisions of the 2012 Scotland at that eventually the
:25:17. > :25:19.revenues from the basic rate of income tax will come directly to the
:25:20. > :25:25.Scottish Parliament rather than going through the UK Treasury, so by
:25:26. > :25:32.that is already being you wrote it. The big message of what Mr Salmond
:25:33. > :25:37.is trying to do, many of us have been saying the yes vote have been
:25:38. > :25:45.on the defensive, constantly having to defend their position. There we
:25:46. > :25:51.saw Mr Salmond trying to say, to put the no side on the defensive, saying
:25:52. > :25:57.what answer to you have two insure Scotland could get women back into
:25:58. > :26:02.employment what answer do you have two the chance Scotland will do
:26:03. > :26:08.badly? That begins to take the no side into sorting out what will be
:26:09. > :26:13.their stance in terms of what Scotland might get, because part of
:26:14. > :26:21.the answer to the speech is, the more you'd evolve tax revenues to
:26:22. > :26:25.the Scottish Parliament, relying less on the Barnett formula, even if
:26:26. > :26:30.you do that within the framework of the UK, then Scotland begins to
:26:31. > :26:35.benefit if you get more women into employment, so that debate on the no
:26:36. > :26:41.side becomes more important. Thank you. Let's step back into the
:26:42. > :26:48.chamber at Holyrood and the Labour Leader Johann Lamont. The First
:26:49. > :26:53.Minister claims his white paper is full of detail. There is an enormous
:26:54. > :26:59.difference between a lot of detail and a lot of words. Far from being
:27:00. > :27:03.tampered with reality, this white paper is assertion rich. Let's look
:27:04. > :27:10.at what it says about the pound. Page 85. Scotland will continue to
:27:11. > :27:23.use the pound. Let's imagine that is true. LAUGHTER. I didn't realise he
:27:24. > :27:29.would be quite so true to form. Let's imagine that is true. We would
:27:30. > :27:33.have an independent Scotland relying on a foreign bank and taxpayers for
:27:34. > :27:37.our currency, a foreign Parliament from which we had withdrawn Scottish
:27:38. > :27:43.representation would draw up the rules. This independent Scotland, I
:27:44. > :27:47.don't know if you realised this, this independent Scotland would have
:27:48. > :27:55.it interest rates, its tax and spending policy its borrowing
:27:56. > :27:58.rates, by another country. It would be the greatest loss of sovereignty
:27:59. > :28:08.for Scotland since Edward invaded in 1296. But that is if we could cut a
:28:09. > :28:17.deal to keep the pound. Yesterday, David Cameron says such a deal was
:28:18. > :28:22.unlikely. In saying that, he is entitled to his opinion in these
:28:23. > :28:30.negotiations, in saying that, he echoed the words of George as born
:28:31. > :28:33.and Ed Balls and Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, who also
:28:34. > :28:38.has an interest in these matters. Even if they agree, it is likely the
:28:39. > :28:47.rest of the UK would require a referendum to join a currency union
:28:48. > :28:50.just as if joining the EU. Imagine Scotland's future currency depending
:28:51. > :28:53.on a referendum in which no Scot would have a vote. How would a
:28:54. > :28:59.politician persuade the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland
:29:00. > :29:02.that the Scots who have left them would keep the pound, especially if
:29:03. > :29:07.the Scottish Government's case to leave is because the rest of the UK
:29:08. > :29:12.has held its back ever since the union was created? If they needed
:29:13. > :29:17.evidence, they only had to listen to the First Minister's speech. The
:29:18. > :29:22.idea you would abuse the rest of the UK for doing us down and then go
:29:23. > :29:28.back to ask them for our favour to share their currency simply beggars
:29:29. > :29:34.belief. You would need them to agree to a lender of last resort, so if a
:29:35. > :29:39.Scottish bank needed a bail-out, English, Wales and Northern Ireland
:29:40. > :29:43.taxpayers would fit the bill. The Bank of England is funded by
:29:44. > :29:48.taxpayers that Scotland wouldn't pay any tax to the rest of the UK. How
:29:49. > :29:52.can the First Minister think anyone north or south of the border
:29:53. > :29:59.believes that deal could be done? Even the First Minister's own former
:30:00. > :30:05.economic adviser says a deal for a separate Scotland to keep the pound
:30:06. > :30:11.would be very difficult. He says the pound would be with the rest of the
:30:12. > :30:15.UK. The adviser says the conditions the rest of the UK would impose
:30:16. > :30:20.would be too restrictive to be desirable. Alex Salmond's economic
:30:21. > :30:25.adviser says there would need to be a plan B, a separate Scottish
:30:26. > :30:28.currency, but in this white paper we have a plan a which is not tampered
:30:29. > :30:42.with reality and no plan B at all. Can I thank her for taking the
:30:43. > :30:45.intervention. We are six minutes through the speech and we haven't
:30:46. > :31:02.heard a single thing Johann Lamont leaves on. Do you really agree
:31:03. > :31:14.that... That is completely ludicrous. For
:31:15. > :31:22.all its 670 pages and its words this white paper cannot say what currency
:31:23. > :31:30.a separate Scotland would have. The fundamental argument which runs
:31:31. > :31:44.through the whole white paper was said of by Professor K, people need
:31:45. > :31:47.to get beyond vague aspirations like an independent Scotland would have
:31:48. > :31:56.the powers to tackle poverty. He added, nor can we say that Scotland
:31:57. > :32:01.would have lots more money from an unknown source and would have be
:32:02. > :32:06.able to avoid eating choices about spending and taxation and debt which
:32:07. > :32:14.have two be made in the framework of the United Kingdom or indeed any
:32:15. > :32:21.framework which characterises cloud cuckoo land.
:32:22. > :32:29.If he wants to follow that debate live, go to the BBC democracy live
:32:30. > :32:39.website. At Prime Minister's Questions today, on the payday
:32:40. > :32:43.lending markets, David Cameron said he was proud to have intervened and
:32:44. > :32:48.that Labour did nothing about it for 13 years. The subject of the
:32:49. > :32:53.Scottish independence white paper was also raised.
:32:54. > :33:10.Following his U-turn on payday lending, why has he gone from the
:33:11. > :33:17.siding that's interfering is Marxist to interfering recently.
:33:18. > :33:22.There are some very disturbing cases and for 13 years they did nothing
:33:23. > :33:28.about it. I am proud of the fact that we have intervened to regulate
:33:29. > :33:33.this market properly and we will also be putting in place a cap. Let
:33:34. > :33:44.me be very clear to him, I followed very carefully his interview on
:33:45. > :34:03.Desert Island Discs and I live is he is now following Engels.
:34:04. > :34:07.They repeatedly voted against capping payday loan there is. We
:34:08. > :34:15.were for it and they were against it. Clearly he wants to claim this
:34:16. > :34:18.is a principled decision so can the Prime Minister explain why the
:34:19. > :34:23.government intervening to cap the cost of credit is right but the
:34:24. > :34:29.government capping energy bills is communism?
:34:30. > :34:37.I feel like one of those radio hosts because I want to say, and your
:34:38. > :34:40.complaint is exactly? We are doing the right thing. He should be
:34:41. > :34:49.standing up and congratulating us. He wants to turn to energy so let's
:34:50. > :34:54.do that. The point is that we do not have control of the international
:34:55. > :34:58.price of gas so what we need to do is have more competition to get
:34:59. > :35:05.profits down and roll back the cost of regulation to get prices down.
:35:06. > :35:09.That is a proper energy policy. We know his version of intervention.
:35:10. > :35:15.That is taking money off the Co-op and don't as any questions.
:35:16. > :35:20.For two years, the people of Scotland were promised they would
:35:21. > :35:23.get a detailed paper and selling all the questions. Instead they got it
:35:24. > :35:30.the document full of false promises. It wasn't a blueprint for
:35:31. > :35:33.independence but a wish list. Even that independence is based on the
:35:34. > :35:39.assumption that Scotland would keep the pounds with no plan B, can the
:35:40. > :35:45.Prime Minister tell us whether the lack of it plan B would call into
:35:46. > :35:49.question the credibility of the white paper.
:35:50. > :35:54.I very much agree. We were told this white paper would answer every
:35:55. > :36:11.question but there is no answer on currency, an EU membership, on
:36:12. > :36:24.Natal. -- on NATO. The Prime Minister needs some guts. We now
:36:25. > :36:33.have the blueprint for independence. Well he stop being pathetic and get
:36:34. > :36:44.out and debate the issues? I'm enjoying the debate now. This is
:36:45. > :36:47.a debate between people in Scotland, not between the leader of
:36:48. > :36:54.the Conservative Party or even the UK Prime Minister and the First
:36:55. > :37:00.Minister. It is a debate between the leader of the yes campaign and the
:37:01. > :37:04.leader of the no campaign. I know you want is find every sort of
:37:05. > :37:09.distraction possible because when it comes to the economy, jobs, Europe,
:37:10. > :37:15.all the arguments are for staying together.
:37:16. > :37:22.Let us speak to our reporter at College Green at Westminster. It was
:37:23. > :37:31.a fairly lacklustre Prime Minister's Questions. The most energising got
:37:32. > :37:40.was during Pete Wishart's question. One MP was wrecked remanded --
:37:41. > :37:45.reprimanded. Tempers often get a little bit
:37:46. > :37:58.frayed and people get excitable and that happened today. The speaker had
:37:59. > :38:10.to tell the SMP's -- the Scottish National Party's Angus Neill to stop
:38:11. > :38:16.yapping like a puppy. Lots of talk about the white paper
:38:17. > :38:24.up in Scotland. What's other significant reaction has there been
:38:25. > :38:34.an Westminster? Yesterday Westminster collectively
:38:35. > :38:42.said that they thought they should leave it to Scotland to discuss the
:38:43. > :38:48.white paper. Today we are seeing that people in Westminster are
:38:49. > :38:52.treating this white paper a bit like a budgets beach. You get the
:38:53. > :38:57.headlines on day one followed by the reaction over the following days
:38:58. > :38:59.when baby is parties will try to pick out things they do and do not
:39:00. > :39:11.like about it. I am joined by two Scottish
:39:12. > :39:24.politicians. Pete Wishart and Jeremy Purvis, who we now call Lord
:39:25. > :39:36.Purvis. The white paper, what do you think of it?
:39:37. > :39:44.I've read it and the only thing I think there are so many big
:39:45. > :39:48.questions remaining. There's one question missing and that is what if
:39:49. > :39:56.they are wrong? What if they cannot get everything they want? What if
:39:57. > :40:02.all other nations in the United Kingdom say that you cannot get what
:40:03. > :40:08.you want? That is of fundamental importance when it comes to our
:40:09. > :40:14.currency, our mortgages and what we will pass over to future
:40:15. > :40:23.generations. I think this is of considerable concern.
:40:24. > :40:28.You are guilty of the politics of assertion. Just because you say it
:40:29. > :40:34.is going to happen doesn't mean it well.
:40:35. > :40:40.We have been asked for detail and yesterday we presented it. We are so
:40:41. > :40:45.everything it is possible to answer about an independence referendum. We
:40:46. > :40:53.are going into this debate as the best informed country ever in an
:40:54. > :41:07.independence debate. If people have a look at this, they will see the
:41:08. > :41:14.answers to the questions. This is an exciting and transformative process.
:41:15. > :41:25.Some would argue it is an SNP manifesto. It is a government paper.
:41:26. > :41:32.Anybody can put forward a prospectus about a future Scotland's. You might
:41:33. > :41:37.even see one from the Liberals. What if they are right about the
:41:38. > :41:44.pounds and the head of state and you're not?
:41:45. > :41:52.No we have presented a past doctors -- prospectus about what we would
:41:53. > :41:58.take forward if we were the first government elected in an independent
:41:59. > :42:09.Scotland. I do not think that is a sufficient
:42:10. > :42:12.answer. A few years ago, Alex Salmond was saying that the pound
:42:13. > :42:21.was the millstone around the Scottish neck. There isn't a plan B.
:42:22. > :42:27.There isn't the case that we can change minds after the referendum. I
:42:28. > :42:30.think it is important that these questions are properly addressed and
:42:31. > :42:35.in this paper they are not. We've had lots of very clever people
:42:36. > :42:45.look at the options for us. The fiscal commission determined that
:42:46. > :42:59.the best way forward for Scotland's future was for us to keep the pound.
:43:00. > :43:05.Some are arguing that you are keeping the parts that you like so
:43:06. > :43:11.to some extent your opponents will say this isn't real independence.
:43:12. > :43:18.What's wrong with keeping things that work? Why would we want to get
:43:19. > :43:28.rid of the Queen. The pound will work for Scotland's as it works for
:43:29. > :43:42.the rest of the country. If things don't work out then we can change
:43:43. > :43:48.them. That is the key to independence. It is the Scottish
:43:49. > :43:53.people that decide. I was in the Scottish Parliament for
:43:54. > :43:59.eight years and they were indicating, your colleagues, that
:44:00. > :44:05.the pound and the British state was not working for the people of
:44:06. > :44:11.Scotland. Now they are suggesting that they will keep these things.
:44:12. > :44:26.The British state is working. Why create harriers when we are already
:44:27. > :44:37.contributing? -- create barriers. You are well known as the bring
:44:38. > :44:45.devolution max. From the way you see the arguments progressing, do you
:44:46. > :44:54.think that's devo max is an idea whose time will come?
:44:55. > :45:02.We have established a home rule amity and want to see further
:45:03. > :45:07.progression. -- home rule commission. We want the Scottish
:45:08. > :45:15.Parliament to be stronger. Why create all the different barriers
:45:16. > :45:20.and uncertainty and risks? It the referendum doesn't go your
:45:21. > :45:28.way, could you live with devo max? What ever they talk about, it is up
:45:29. > :45:39.to whoever decides in that place. If we vote no, that means no. They are
:45:40. > :45:47.talking about the Barnett Formula, the West Lothian question. They will
:45:48. > :45:51.be looking at the settlement again and turning it on its head.
:45:52. > :45:57.Hull I'm sure we will return to this issue. Thank you. You won't be
:45:58. > :46:07.surprised that we will be talking about this piece of paper. We only
:46:08. > :46:12.have an abridged version on here so if anybody has any copies, there are
:46:13. > :46:23.some people here who would like to read it. For a final time, let's dip
:46:24. > :46:33.act into the chamber for the debate on the white paper and Scotland's
:46:34. > :46:39.future. According to Johann Lamont, that is all right. She cannot make
:46:40. > :46:44.the logical step from having health protected by this Parliament to
:46:45. > :46:48.having other forms of social protection controlled by this
:46:49. > :46:53.Parliament. I believe we can do better by our vulnerable. The white
:46:54. > :46:57.paper acknowledges that welfare is to be viewed as a social investment
:46:58. > :47:02.designed to promote equality, fairness and social cohesion, not
:47:03. > :47:07.just a safety net but also as a positive investment in people. It
:47:08. > :47:12.sets out policy goals the Government would pursue worthy SNP elected,
:47:13. > :47:18.whether to abolish bedroom tax, cancel universal credit and
:47:19. > :47:22.independence payments, these are real tangible choices we can make
:47:23. > :47:26.with the powers of independents to ensure the same protection afforded
:47:27. > :47:30.to our vulnerable to a Scottish controlled health service is
:47:31. > :47:36.afforded by a Scottish controlled welfare system. If the chance to
:47:37. > :47:40.recognise the value of all our people to a system that values all
:47:41. > :47:45.our people, a system that would deliver from cradle to grave. That
:47:46. > :47:49.is a point about childcare policy which the other parties seem to have
:47:50. > :47:53.ever guilty with, but to invest the sums we required to deliver that
:47:54. > :47:59.change, we need control of Scotland's revenues. We don't
:48:00. > :48:03.require what is currently operated by Westminster which is a
:48:04. > :48:07.diminishing grant subject to the whims of austerity mad politicians
:48:08. > :48:11.in Westminster. We need the full power of Scotland's resources to
:48:12. > :48:18.deliver the full range of powers for the people of Scotland, and that is
:48:19. > :48:22.the essence of independents. It is about Scotland's people controlling
:48:23. > :48:27.their future and Scotland's government delivering for
:48:28. > :48:30.Scotland's people. It is about attracting talented people to come
:48:31. > :48:37.to Scotland, not booting them out of Scotland. It is about protecting the
:48:38. > :48:40.vulnerable, not humiliating them. That is essentially what
:48:41. > :48:45.independence is about, the step where we say to the Scottish people,
:48:46. > :48:51.we trust you, and they put their trust in those we elect to govern to
:48:52. > :48:55.take decisions for them. We do not have a system for decisions on
:48:56. > :49:01.Scotland's be are taken by people who did not ask what Scotland wanted
:49:02. > :49:03.them to do on Scotland's Bihar. We need only look at what happened on
:49:04. > :49:10.the Common Agricultural Policy decision to see we have that system
:49:11. > :49:15.where government officials and ministers take decisions on behalf
:49:16. > :49:23.of Scotland without a care for the impact on Scotland. Can you bring
:49:24. > :49:28.your remarks to a close was Max with regard to independence, we can take
:49:29. > :49:31.control is -- we can take decisions for the people of Scotland that
:49:32. > :49:42.reflect their values. That decision I want for my children. Scotland's
:49:43. > :49:50.finances and the economy are central to this debate. We have heard much
:49:51. > :49:53.of that already. The white paper, figures show tax receipts in
:49:54. > :50:01.Scotland are higher in the UK as a whole, but less is made of the equal
:50:02. > :50:07.fact that public spending is higher. The IFS showed the same figures mean
:50:08. > :50:12.an independent Scotland would face higher tax increases or greater cuts
:50:13. > :50:20.than the UK. That drew even on the most optimistic case, using the
:50:21. > :50:29.SNP's lowest estimate of debt and around highest projections for oil,
:50:30. > :50:36.the calculation shows costs would still be in the area of ?1000 a year
:50:37. > :50:39.taxation, so they refuse to face the arithmetic of independents. I
:50:40. > :50:47.understand the Government dismisses these figures because they argue a
:50:48. > :50:50.separate Scotland will suddenly grow stratospherically and the First
:50:51. > :50:56.Minister asserted that again today. The white paper is vague on why that
:50:57. > :51:04.should be expected to happen. It suggests corporation tax cut, no one
:51:05. > :51:06.but the SNP believes it, a small-business National Insurance
:51:07. > :51:12.scheme which already exists and has not works, and a pledge the SNP
:51:13. > :51:18.could deliver today if they cared, the SNP had to take ten minutes to
:51:19. > :51:24.date to apologise for his failure to do so. What this document is clear
:51:25. > :51:30.about is the fundamental platform Scotland's future requires. Since
:51:31. > :51:38.Johann Lamont the dog and so the question, can he now and corrupt? We
:51:39. > :51:42.have identified how child care could be funded by increased revenues and
:51:43. > :51:48.female per dissipation in the workforce. That could happen under
:51:49. > :51:54.independence, but under devolution how would you find this ?700 million
:51:55. > :51:59.required? Let's start by finding the resources to deliver the child care
:52:00. > :52:06.pledge that in six years he has not managed to deliver. This document is
:52:07. > :52:10.clear about the fundamental platform the future requires. It says we will
:52:11. > :52:14.retain that pound, the Bank of England will be the lender of last
:52:15. > :52:20.resort in case the banks fail, and on that financial sector, we will
:52:21. > :52:24.retain a broadly integrated market, and as for energy, Scotland will
:52:25. > :52:30.continue to operate in the great British market since we succeed in
:52:31. > :52:35.attracting one third of the subsidies paid for by UK consumers
:52:36. > :52:38.and we will have a single transmission operator paid for by
:52:39. > :52:44.consumers across the UK and the green investment bank will continue
:52:45. > :52:50.on a UK wide basis. For Scotland's universities, winning up to 50% of
:52:51. > :52:55.available research funding, way above our share, the white paper
:52:56. > :53:00.says these UK wide arrangements will continue after independence. Why?
:53:01. > :53:07.Because it says so in the white paper. Workforce needs to move
:53:08. > :53:11.freely across borders so we will continue with the Common travel area
:53:12. > :53:14.except all the evidence says that even where borders remain open,
:53:15. > :53:20.cross-border flows of people and trade will plummet when countries
:53:21. > :53:24.separate by as much as two thirds in the case of Czechoslovakia. Last
:53:25. > :53:29.week we debated the importance of UK defence contracts, not least to ship
:53:30. > :53:34.welding. The white paper says these will continue but we know the
:53:35. > :53:39.workers whose jobs depend on them say they would not. This document
:53:40. > :53:45.offers no evidence that these things would continue after independence.
:53:46. > :53:50.It simply asserts that because the SNP argument needs it and wishes it
:53:51. > :53:54.to be so, it will happen. If wishes were horses, the First Minister
:53:55. > :54:01.would today be riding at the head of a veritable cavalry Regiment for the
:54:02. > :54:06.new Scottish defence force. There is no reason to believe and no
:54:07. > :54:09.guarantee that the rest of the UK would tailor its currency to our
:54:10. > :54:14.needs, subsidise our renewable industry or fund research rather
:54:15. > :54:20.then there is, far less ills more ships here in another country for
:54:21. > :54:24.the first time in the Navy's peacetime history because it suits
:54:25. > :54:36.us, and to pretend otherwise is dishonest. The First Minister took a
:54:37. > :54:39.minute to give way. The SNP say those who reject separatism should
:54:40. > :54:45.describe a vision for Scotland's future but the argument we are
:54:46. > :54:50.better United joins -- runs through their own white paper. A single
:54:51. > :54:55.currency risks free trade and movement, an energy market with
:54:56. > :55:00.access to ten times the research contract we could command research
:55:01. > :55:06.contracts running into billions of pounds. That is the foundation of
:55:07. > :55:10.our prosperity and if we vote no we keep these things. Not maybe, not
:55:11. > :55:21.subject to negotiations, but guaranteed. This is the Better
:55:22. > :55:31.Together case. Mr Gray is winding up. The SNP think we are too weak to
:55:32. > :55:38.seize the opportunities of the UK and the world beyond in order to
:55:39. > :55:44.thrive. Ian great speaking live in the chamber there. -- Iain Gray. And
:55:45. > :55:47.if you'd like to watch the rest of that debate, just go to BBC
:55:48. > :55:52.Scotland's Democracy Live website. Let's get some final thoughts from
:55:53. > :55:56.Professor John Curtice. Let's go back to another Labour speech,
:55:57. > :56:01.Johann Lamont a few minutes ago talking about the currency union and
:56:02. > :56:05.perhaps that England may want to have a referendum on a potential
:56:06. > :56:12.currency union with an independent Scotland. Most of us who listen to
:56:13. > :56:14.this debate have heard lots of arguments for and against
:56:15. > :56:17.independents are occasionally looking for new arguments. We
:56:18. > :56:25.haven't heard many recently but here was one. She was arguing that there
:56:26. > :56:29.in mind both Conservative and Labour parties said the UK would not join a
:56:30. > :56:34.monetary union with the liver is -- with the EU in the absence of a
:56:35. > :56:40.referendum. She said what the UK Government should decide is if
:56:41. > :56:44.Scotland votes yes and wishes to have a monetary union with the rest
:56:45. > :56:49.of the UK, the Government will insist on having a referendum on the
:56:50. > :56:58.subject. An interesting argument, maybe therefore accept, but it
:56:59. > :57:00.indicates that by becoming independent Scotland could
:57:01. > :57:06.supposedly make its own choices, that many of the choices the SNP
:57:07. > :57:11.would like Scotland to make our ones that require collaboration with the
:57:12. > :57:17.rest of the UK. It is reasonable to argue that might be in Scotland's
:57:18. > :57:21.interests but it means the SNP is arguing for positions that are not
:57:22. > :57:25.entirely in its gift, and here we see a clear capital, perhaps even
:57:26. > :57:31.strategic tension or the independence case. The SNP want to
:57:32. > :57:34.put forward a case for independence that says the things for Britain we
:57:35. > :57:40.like, they will not all be ripped up, it does not mean the drawbridge
:57:41. > :57:46.comes down, things like the BBC and the pound we can keep, and I can see
:57:47. > :57:49.why they want to do that because significant sections of Scottish
:57:50. > :57:54.society still feel a sense of Britishness, but they then expose
:57:55. > :57:59.themselves to the argument about Hang on, you cannot be sure what
:58:00. > :58:04.will happen, and in effect the rupture will be bigger than you are
:58:05. > :58:09.arguing. I think we can expect the no side to keep banging on about
:58:10. > :58:14.this, especially the currency but also about agendas. We see the SNP
:58:15. > :58:19.want to talk about childcare and what they see as the positive case,
:58:20. > :58:24.we see the no side wanting to go back to currency and what they see
:58:25. > :58:29.as the negative side. It will be interesting to see how that comes
:58:30. > :58:34.out. The First Minister talked about childcare and growing the economy,
:58:35. > :58:38.we also heard him talk about more immigration to Scotland. How do you
:58:39. > :58:43.think that goes down and will that be possible in an independent
:58:44. > :58:50.Scotland that doesn't have borders with the rest of the UK? It will be
:58:51. > :58:54.fascinating to see how this goes from the border, the SNP are arguing
:58:55. > :59:02.for more immigration while the UK Prime Minister is trying to limit
:59:03. > :59:08.immigration from within the EU. Is the Scottish public necessarily more
:59:09. > :59:12.immigration? It is debatable. Around half of people in Scotland say if a
:59:13. > :59:20.lot more people came here from Europe, it might affect our cultural
:59:21. > :59:24.diversity, and more people in Scotland may be as happy about
:59:25. > :59:27.recent levels of immigration as the rest of the UK, so that is
:59:28. > :59:33.potentially an issue to emerge more from this today. Thank you, John. We
:59:34. > :59:37.will see you again soon. That's all we have time for today. We're back
:59:38. > :59:40.at the usual time next week here, 2:30pm here on BBC Two. Newsnight
:59:41. > :59:43.Scotland will be debating the white paper tonight with the Finance
:59:44. > :59:46.Secretary John Swinney and Scottish Labour Leader Johann Lamont. That's
:59:47. > :59:52.at the earlier time of 10:30pm. Thanks for your company. From all
:59:53. > :59:58.the team here, goodbye for now.