:00:14. > :00:17.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:00:17. > :00:23.programme this afternoon: Five religious groups go to
:00:23. > :00:25.Holyrood calling for same-sex marriage to be allowed. As the
:00:26. > :00:29.Treasury minister arrived in Edinburgh, he faced tough questions
:00:29. > :00:33.on tax in the Scotland Bill. Are these proposals in danger of being
:00:34. > :00:36.left high and dry? And as new figures indicate one in ten adults
:00:36. > :00:44.is on anti-depressants, the Scottish Government sets out how
:00:44. > :00:46.it's dealing with mental health. And here at the Labour party
:00:46. > :00:52.conference in Liverpool, delegates have been digesting Ed Miliband's
:00:52. > :01:00.leader's speech and what it means for the party. We will be doing the
:01:00. > :01:01.same. More on that later. Five religious groups have called for
:01:01. > :01:04.the introduction of same-sex marriage in Scotland.
:01:04. > :01:06.Representatives are at Holyrood today arguing that they should be
:01:06. > :01:09.allowed to preside over same sex ceremonies. But senior Catholic
:01:09. > :01:15.figures have urged the Scottish Government not to change the law.
:01:15. > :01:20.Here's our correspondent, Raymond Buchanan.
:01:20. > :01:25.They had the car, the outfits, they also received many of the same
:01:25. > :01:29.rights and responsibilities as a married couple. But when Neil and
:01:29. > :01:35.John are tied the knot, they didn't get married. The law in Scotland
:01:35. > :01:39.doesn't allow that. At half-time when abnormal couple would sign the
:01:39. > :01:43.register, we went to a registry office and do the signing there, so
:01:43. > :01:47.the legal part was done outside the church but to allow guests, it was
:01:47. > :01:51.the same as a regular wedding. it wasn't a marriage and that's
:01:51. > :01:55.what this group want to change. Leaders of some of Scotland's
:01:55. > :02:02.smaller religious communities gave their support for a change in the
:02:02. > :02:07.law. What matters in a marriage is law, love, integrity. It doesn't
:02:07. > :02:10.matter if it's a same-sex couple or mixed-sex couples. Wherever a
:02:10. > :02:15.particular group in society have been told, you are equal but
:02:15. > :02:21.separate, different, we need a different terminology for you, that
:02:21. > :02:25.kind of arrangement is inherently prejudicial. The whole point of
:02:25. > :02:29.today is to try to balance the views which are expressed by
:02:29. > :02:33.amongst others the Roman Catholic Church who insist marriage is
:02:33. > :02:37.between a man and a woman. The Church of Scotland's view is less
:02:38. > :02:41.clear that they intend to meet with ministers before they responded to
:02:41. > :02:43.the Scottish Government's consultation on the issue. But
:02:43. > :02:47.supporters of same-sex marriage insist they wouldn't force other
:02:47. > :02:52.churches to conduct ceremonies but that is unlikely to persuade
:02:52. > :02:55.critics who insist the whole concept is morally wrong.
:02:55. > :03:00.For some political reaction to this let's join Patrick Harvie MSP, Co
:03:00. > :03:05.convenor of the Green Party in the Holyrood Garden Lobby. Thank you
:03:05. > :03:10.for joining me. Your by yourself this afternoon, I'm afraid. We
:03:10. > :03:14.couldn't get anybody from the SNP to speak about same-sex marriage.
:03:14. > :03:19.Why are these proposals important and necessary to go forward from
:03:19. > :03:24.civil partnerships? What difference would same-sex marriage be to the
:03:24. > :03:28.law already? I have to admit, I used to wonder that but I'm not to
:03:28. > :03:31.their relationship and I'm not religious, so to me, personally,
:03:32. > :03:37.these words don't carry a huge amount of weight, but we have to
:03:37. > :03:40.acknowledge, too many people, they do. They are profoundly significant,
:03:40. > :03:44.and what is also clear is that some people continue to use the
:03:44. > :03:48.distinction between marriage and civil partnership as a kind of
:03:48. > :03:54.proxy for saying that same-sex relationships are just not as good,
:03:54. > :03:58.not as worthwhile, not as deserving of recognition from society. Those
:03:58. > :04:02.are the reasons why people feel strongly that this change is
:04:02. > :04:05.overdue. And why it should happen. I'm pleased to say, there is a good
:04:05. > :04:11.degree of political consensus at least from the leadership to the
:04:11. > :04:14.main political parties and those in at Holyrood. We have been hearing
:04:14. > :04:17.from the five religious group obviously, you can understand the
:04:17. > :04:23.sensitivities of the bigger faith groups, like the Roman Catholic
:04:23. > :04:28.Church, are lobbying the skid to to being forced into it performing
:04:28. > :04:36.same-sex marriage ceremonies in their churches. What would you say
:04:36. > :04:40.to them? I have not heard for individual people all religious
:04:40. > :04:44.places to be compelled to conduct any particular marriage if they
:04:44. > :04:50.think it's not in keeping with their own face and tradition. What
:04:50. > :04:53.is very clear, particularly the Catholic Church have been very
:04:53. > :04:57.vocal on this, is that there are religious groups who feel very
:04:57. > :05:02.strongly that it is in keeping with their conscience not only to
:05:02. > :05:07.conduct same-sex marriage, but it's difficult for them to sway with
:05:07. > :05:11.their conscience the requirement to turn a same-sex couples away. If
:05:11. > :05:15.you accept the fact Parliament should not intervene in a religious
:05:15. > :05:18.matter, and I don't think it should, we have got a situation where the
:05:19. > :05:24.law allows different religious groups to reach their own view and
:05:24. > :05:29.it to act according to the contras. Thank you very much for that. --
:05:29. > :05:32.conference. -- conscience. And joining me now is the Scotsman's
:05:32. > :05:33.and Scotland on Sunday's political editor, Eddie Barnes. He's our
:05:33. > :05:37.political commentator for the afternoon. Good afternoon, Eddie.
:05:37. > :05:42.Do you think Alex Salmond is preparing for a firestorm around
:05:42. > :05:47.this issue as we saw in section 28 many years ago. I don't think we
:05:47. > :05:51.are heading for another section 28. I think he has some difficulties.
:05:51. > :05:56.He has MSPs in his own group who say they would rather this did not
:05:56. > :06:00.come in. He has the SNP largest donor who has made his own views
:06:00. > :06:04.clear on this in the past for the you get the impression that we are
:06:04. > :06:11.heading towards that section 20 its scenario, and I think that is
:06:11. > :06:16.partly because of the fact bearers cross-party unanimity in favour of
:06:17. > :06:21.this move -- there is cross-party. England are pushing ahead with this
:06:21. > :06:26.as well. Whilst there Clare objections from the Roman Catholic
:06:26. > :06:31.Church, whether we get that level of debate and ferocity we got 10
:06:31. > :06:35.years ago, I just don't get the sense that is happening. Stay there,
:06:35. > :06:38.we will be back with you shortly. So, Ed Miliband made his pitch to
:06:38. > :06:40.voters in his conference speech yesterday and today he's having to
:06:40. > :06:43.defend himself that he's anti- business. Let's get some more
:06:43. > :06:52.reaction now from Liverpool. Our Westminster correspondent David
:06:52. > :06:56.Porter is standing by. Andrew, thank you. Behind me, it's
:06:56. > :07:01.a very busy Conference Centre this afternoon. Ed Miliband just walked
:07:01. > :07:05.past me a few moments ago. He has got a question and answer session
:07:05. > :07:09.with delegates this afternoon but yesterday, it was his big speech,
:07:09. > :07:12.his keynote speech of the conference, where he laid out his
:07:12. > :07:19.philosophy and where he wants to take the Labour Party. We will
:07:19. > :07:24.discuss that in more detail with Douglas Alexander the Shire Oak --
:07:24. > :07:30.shadow Foreign Secretary. Now a chance to recap on the week so far.
:07:30. > :07:34.Liverpool, a city proud of its history and heritage, built on
:07:34. > :07:40.trade and industry. Famous for its three graces. Belied the building,
:07:40. > :07:44.the Cunard Building, and the Port of Liverpool building, each
:07:44. > :07:51.testimony to Liverpools seafaring tradition. This week there is an
:07:51. > :07:54.addition. Liverpool also note -- now has Ed Miliband and Ed Balls
:07:54. > :08:00.who will play a major part in charting the party's course in the
:08:00. > :08:05.next few years. It's the job of Ed Balls to sketch out economic policy.
:08:05. > :08:09.This is not, as the Conservatives claimed, simply a crisis a public
:08:09. > :08:15.debt which can be solved country- by-country through austerity cuts
:08:15. > :08:19.and retrenchment, but truly a global growth crisis which is
:08:19. > :08:24.deepening and darkening by the day. Of for Ed Miliband, one year into
:08:24. > :08:29.the job as leader, his task is to articulate who he is and where he
:08:29. > :08:36.wants to take the party. You need to know there is an alternative.
:08:36. > :08:42.You need to know it is credible. So people need to know where I stand.
:08:42. > :08:50.The Labour Party lost trust on the economy. I am determined we restore
:08:50. > :08:55.your trust in us on the economy. Despite the traditional eve-of-
:08:55. > :09:01.conference Scots night, Scotland has not featured greatly in this
:09:01. > :09:04.conference balls-up Labour is still at Litton its wounds after May's
:09:04. > :09:09.dropping in the Holyrood elections. The outgoing leader in Scotland is
:09:09. > :09:12.keen to it to the future. I didn't stand down immediately to give the
:09:12. > :09:17.Labour Party time to consider what could happen and what we had to do
:09:17. > :09:21.to move forward. We have used the time usefully and made changes in
:09:21. > :09:25.the way we organise ourselves and my successor will be the take the
:09:25. > :09:29.Scottish Liberal scored from a strong platform. Others don't
:09:30. > :09:35.underestimate the task ahead in Scotland. We are getting into a
:09:35. > :09:39.position, ready to fight about the economy, tuition fees in Scotland,
:09:39. > :09:43.and will soon have but a new leader of the Scottish Labour Party.
:09:44. > :09:48.have to accept we did badly in that election and we had to look at why
:09:48. > :09:51.that happened. We have to look at the way be than the campaign
:09:51. > :09:58.carefully and re-engage with people in Scotland so we can earn their
:09:58. > :10:03.support again. Here in Liverpool, politics tends to go in cycles.
:10:03. > :10:06.Sometimes you have got to go down before you can go up.
:10:06. > :10:12.I can tell you that wheel is a lot bigger when you are actually close
:10:12. > :10:20.to it, which is why you saw shots of it, not as looking down from it.
:10:20. > :10:24.I'm joined now by Douglas Alexander, Scottish MPs. We got something from
:10:24. > :10:29.Ed Miliband yesterday about who he is and where he wants to take the
:10:30. > :10:34.Labour Party. A lot of interest in the economics staff. What is a
:10:34. > :10:39.predator company? A company that engages in practices which has long
:10:39. > :10:44.term harm to the British economy. He cited the Southern Cross, a
:10:44. > :10:48.company which has left many older people worried about the stability
:10:48. > :10:51.of the care arrangements they put in place. I think many people felt
:10:51. > :10:57.they had been companies in recent years that simply have not been
:10:57. > :11:03.playing by the rules. And to put the interests above the broader
:11:03. > :11:06.interests of the broader system and the economy. No longer like in a
:11:06. > :11:12.certain parts of the economy, certain companies, which you don't
:11:12. > :11:17.think are doing their job they are doing. Does this mean in New Labour
:11:17. > :11:22.is dead? No, it's not so much individual companies but business
:11:22. > :11:24.practices. You can have companies are deeply damaging both to
:11:24. > :11:29.themselves and to the broader economy and I'm afraid that's what
:11:29. > :11:34.we saw what banks based in Scotland as well as across the UK in the
:11:34. > :11:38.banking crisis. In that sense, he was very clear. It was not an anti-
:11:38. > :11:44.business beach but an anti- business as usual speech. It's an
:11:44. > :11:49.important distinction -- speech. Let's move on to Scotland. You know
:11:49. > :11:52.how badly the party did in May. What as the party got to do to
:11:52. > :11:57.recover with the Scottish electorate? We have a range of
:11:57. > :12:02.tasks because we did a bad beating back in May. Only one in eight
:12:02. > :12:05.Scots gave his support and their vote. That is why the work carried
:12:05. > :12:12.forward by the organisational review is important. We also need
:12:12. > :12:17.to be cleared but it's about articulating more clearly what is
:12:17. > :12:22.Scottish Labour's defining political purpose. I believe it is
:12:22. > :12:25.to build a better Scottish nation, defined not by a time this
:12:25. > :12:30.commitment to social justice, but also a country proud of itself and
:12:30. > :12:33.its place in the world. For more than 100 years, we have stood up
:12:33. > :12:37.for home rule within the United Kingdom and a society based on
:12:37. > :12:42.solidarity. I think that is what Scotland once and I believe
:12:42. > :12:47.Scottish Labour has to deliver in the years ahead. Are you frustrated
:12:47. > :12:52.that perhaps so far you feel your Labour colleagues in Scotland
:12:52. > :12:55.perhaps haven't got the depth of the crisis the party is facing?
:12:55. > :13:01.think most of us realise the difficult of the problem we are
:13:01. > :13:04.facing. It was natural conversation about party processes gives way to
:13:04. > :13:08.a broader and more fundamental political conversation at in a
:13:08. > :13:12.speech I will be making a couple of weeks. Then I will make my
:13:12. > :13:16.contribution to the task we all face, winning a political argument
:13:16. > :13:21.about who is best to build that better Scottish nation. The SNP
:13:21. > :13:23.claim they can build a better nation. Personally, I've never been
:13:23. > :13:29.convinced we need to be a separate nation to be a better nation.
:13:29. > :13:32.Actually, that is the weakest part of their argument. I'm afraid we
:13:32. > :13:36.have to leave it there. We have a taste of what Douglas Alexander
:13:36. > :13:40.will be saying in a couple of weeks' time. We will come back
:13:40. > :13:44.later. David, we will be back with you
:13:44. > :13:47.shortly. Let's pick up on some of those points with our political
:13:47. > :13:53.commentator, Eddie Barnes. To pick up a. Douglas Alexander made about
:13:53. > :13:59.Ed Miliband not being anti-business. We have moved on, things are
:13:59. > :14:05.different now for the best to you think that is credible? I thought
:14:05. > :14:08.he did a good job of laying out his analysis of where the country is. I
:14:08. > :14:12.think he did a good job in saying this is not just about the new
:14:12. > :14:19.Labour verses Old Labour arguments. He was confronting modern-day
:14:19. > :14:23.issues about the lack of confidence people have in the economy, the
:14:23. > :14:28.rioting in society and so on. The problem he still has is the
:14:28. > :14:32.analysis may be right but do people see him as the leader they want to
:14:32. > :14:37.take forward and change things? He simply has not done that yet balls-
:14:37. > :14:40.up we will be picking up on that later on. Thank you for that. The
:14:40. > :14:45.UK government has been facing tough questions on the Scotland Bill at
:14:45. > :14:47.Holyrood. The Treasury minister David Gauke was grilled by SNP MSPs
:14:47. > :14:51.yesterday about whether the bill's proposed 10p income tax power would
:14:51. > :14:59.be damaging to Scotland's finances. The SNP calculate it could leave
:14:59. > :15:04.Scotland with an �8 billion black hole. What this proposal suggests
:15:04. > :15:13.is that you are taking away some of the block grant based on a basket
:15:13. > :15:16.of taxes, and replacing it with one tax. With his income tax. Now, all
:15:16. > :15:25.the calculations show income tax grows more slowly than others. For
:15:25. > :15:34.example, the IMF showed since 1965 in the UK, income tax is grown up
:15:34. > :15:38.0.9% but all taxes are grown at 6.5%. The reason is some volatile
:15:38. > :15:47.taxes like all revenues, are very volatile all the way. They have
:15:47. > :15:51.risen by eight times since 1995, for example. That accounts for 43%,
:15:51. > :15:56.so you are take me away those very buoyant taxes, from our share of
:15:56. > :16:02.the block grant and replacing it with income tax, which grows very
:16:02. > :16:07.slowly. I'm not sure quite why that is fair and wide gives the Scottish
:16:07. > :16:12.parliament more responsibility for the money raised here? I think,
:16:12. > :16:16.with respect, have got to come back to the point about the block grant.
:16:17. > :16:23.It is cut played for Scotland on the basis of the Barnett formula. -
:16:23. > :16:29.- it is calculated for Scotland. is based on it tax, including
:16:29. > :16:33.Scotland's from oil and whisky etc. I don't think it is based on tax.
:16:33. > :16:39.It is based on the UK revenue for the we get a share of the UK
:16:39. > :16:43.revenue through the block grant. Yes, and you will do in future.
:16:43. > :16:47.Sadly, I wish it was the case that there was a strong link in the UK
:16:47. > :16:52.public finances between revenue and expenditure but in recent years,
:16:53. > :17:01.but has not been the case, and that is a problem we face. The block
:17:01. > :17:04.grant is based on a spending formula. But there is a mechanism
:17:04. > :17:08.to the block grant where you say the proposal you are putting
:17:08. > :17:16.forward, there is a lot of uncertainty. That was the word that
:17:16. > :17:23.you used. Sorry, can I make one point. A couple of years ago, we
:17:23. > :17:28.saw tax receipts fall dramatically. That didn't automatically feed
:17:28. > :17:33.through to a reduction in the Scottish block grant. The Scottish
:17:33. > :17:37.block grant has been cut this year. But it didn't automatically feed.
:17:37. > :17:43.If you ask anybody in Scotland, they will tell you money has been
:17:43. > :17:50.cut this year for the it's a slightly different thing. Moving on,
:17:50. > :17:54.over time, given that we are using income tax, which grows most slowly
:17:54. > :17:59.than the other in comes which make up the block grant, the Scottish
:17:59. > :18:03.government calculated that, starting with 1999 as a starting
:18:03. > :18:09.point, we would lose �8 billion because income tax grows more
:18:09. > :18:14.slowly. It's a deflationary effect of this scheme. I know the UK
:18:14. > :18:17.government dispute this. In the letter you left for us today,
:18:17. > :18:22.coming into the committee meeting, you talk about your methodology,
:18:22. > :18:28.which came up with a different conclusion from the Scottish
:18:28. > :18:32.government. You didn't take one year. The Scottish government look
:18:32. > :18:40.at how the 10 years after 1999 would be affected if the Scotland
:18:40. > :18:46.Bill had been in place. But the UK government has taken a hypothetical
:18:46. > :18:50.scenario. Could you just explain that? You say you were not using a
:18:50. > :19:00.real year, but an average, and coming up with a conclusion that we
:19:00. > :19:04.
:19:04. > :19:11.would be no worse off. I have a copy in front of me. We work very
:19:11. > :19:14.closely together. You will be able to explain the methodology them.
:19:14. > :19:19.The difficulty with a Scottish government's methodology, it
:19:19. > :19:22.exactly as you describe it. Joining me now are two members of the
:19:22. > :19:25.Scotland Bill Committee. The SNP MSP Joan McAlpine and the Scottish
:19:25. > :19:30.Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie. Good afternoon to you both. Thank you
:19:30. > :19:35.for joining me. We wish you and your arguments there, saying this
:19:35. > :19:39.had a deflationary effect, warning about the �8 billion black hole.
:19:39. > :19:46.Are you convinced, in fact, it could be the opposite effect,
:19:46. > :19:51.revenue neutral originally and the tax date could go up? It means for
:19:51. > :19:55.the first year, after that, we do know what's happening. All we know
:19:55. > :20:00.is the Scottish government economist, not politicians, looked
:20:00. > :20:04.at the figures from 1999 for 10 years ahead of that and came up
:20:04. > :20:09.with the figure of �8 billion. As I explained, that's because you are
:20:09. > :20:14.replacing a basket of taxes, which is what the block grant is based on
:20:14. > :20:18.with income tax, which grows more slowly than oil revenue and Excise.
:20:18. > :20:22.Naturally, it will have a deflationary effect. What is a
:20:22. > :20:27.significant is that the Scottish government figures looked over 10
:20:27. > :20:31.years, a period of boom and bust, and we still lost �8 billion. As I
:20:31. > :20:35.understand, the UK government are disputing that but when Michael
:20:35. > :20:40.Moore appeared before the Scotland Bill committee in February, he said
:20:40. > :20:45.that it would cost us six and �91 million, still a lot of money.
:20:45. > :20:52.Which ever way you look at it, whatever conclusions you may, there
:20:52. > :20:57.is a deflationary effect -- �691 million. This is an odd piece of
:20:57. > :21:03.legislation, the Scotland Bill. The Conservatives are not keen on it.
:21:03. > :21:07.You set out your proposals for your commission which you hope Lord
:21:07. > :21:13.Steel will chair the Scotland Bill is a little thing no one wants,
:21:13. > :21:17.isn't it? It's the most substantial transfer of financial powers to the
:21:17. > :21:23.Scottish parliament in 300 years. A massive chance there to give the
:21:23. > :21:25.Scottish parliament great responsibility over its own
:21:25. > :21:30.finances for that of course there will be fluctuations and that comes
:21:30. > :21:32.with a certain degree of risk and that's why there are litigation
:21:32. > :21:36.tools in place to make sure the Scottish parliament can cope with
:21:36. > :21:41.that. We can't have more responsibility and expect there to
:21:41. > :21:48.be no risk whatsoever. There are ups and downs and the UK government
:21:48. > :21:58.figures show a surplus of up to 2014 of the boat to �0.2 billion.
:21:58. > :21:59.
:21:59. > :22:04.It depends how you calculate. -- of �2.2 billion. This is about the
:22:04. > :22:07.parliament giving responsibility and for an SNP, it's one step on
:22:07. > :22:11.the road to independence, which are you would welcome so will you
:22:11. > :22:16.support the Scotland Bill in its present form and will you vote for
:22:16. > :22:21.it in Westminster? The SNP are asking for a change in the Bill so
:22:21. > :22:24.we have a joint commencement order. The way it is drafted at the moment,
:22:24. > :22:31.HM Treasury decide when these financial provisions are going to
:22:31. > :22:37.come in. Contrary to what he has said, it has not been explained
:22:37. > :22:41.exactly how the mechanism for cutting block grants will work.
:22:41. > :22:45.Many senior economists have pointed out the flaws in this Bill. We need
:22:45. > :22:49.to have a joint commencement order so we are willing to talk and we
:22:50. > :22:54.can work something out. The SNP are not going to pass a bit of
:22:54. > :22:58.legislation that's going to leave the Scottish people worse off. And
:22:58. > :23:03.leave the public services short of money. It's about responsibility
:23:03. > :23:10.but it was really about responsibility, we would be left to
:23:10. > :23:17.raise all our own taxes. Not just one tax. Income tax grows much more
:23:17. > :23:23.slowly. What will the socks -- Scottish secretary do? Will he end
:23:23. > :23:26.up pushing it through? They showed a willingness of constructive
:23:26. > :23:31.engagement to try to work through these quite complicated issues to
:23:31. > :23:34.make sure the right decisions are made but what Jona avoided
:23:34. > :23:41.completely was her willingness to accept this is a massive transfer
:23:41. > :23:47.of power and their idle threats to thwart this Bill, which is the most
:23:47. > :23:51.substantial transfer of power in 300 years, count as what they claim,
:23:51. > :23:56.more powers to the Scottish parliament. I think they need to be
:23:56. > :24:00.more mature. Thank you very much for joining me. Joining me once
:24:00. > :24:04.again is our political commentator Eddie Barnes. You were listening to
:24:04. > :24:08.that argument there. Do you think the Scottish government had a point
:24:08. > :24:14.that this is actually quite a dangerous proposition and could
:24:14. > :24:16.leave Scotland a lot worse off. mean, as Joan McAlpine said, there
:24:16. > :24:23.are economists are out there who are worrying about a deflationary
:24:23. > :24:28.bias and so on. It does depend rather on whether we're in a period
:24:28. > :24:34.of recession or boom up. Then, it would rise and income tax would
:24:34. > :24:39.rise quite so high. If in a public sector restraint, income tax would
:24:39. > :24:42.go higher and the UK government suggests therefore it would be
:24:42. > :24:47.better off. These are terribly complex arguments. We are purely
:24:47. > :24:50.focusing on process is at the moment. I think it would be
:24:50. > :24:54.interesting for those of us watching this to see what exactly
:24:54. > :25:03.the parties intend to do with all these powers. Eddie, thank you very
:25:03. > :25:07.One more election now on Ed Miliband's speech. Earlier we heard
:25:07. > :25:11.from Douglas Alexander. Now to Liverpool and our Westminster
:25:11. > :25:16.correspondent. Thank you. It is a busy day here at
:25:16. > :25:21.the conference. It was a very busy day yesterday when we had Ed
:25:21. > :25:26.Miliband's leadership speech, regarded by many delegates here
:25:26. > :25:33.probably as the keynote and high night address of the week. --
:25:33. > :25:38.highlight. What did Scottish delegates thing? I have three here.
:25:38. > :25:42.Stephen Donnelly, let me start by asking you, do you think you know
:25:42. > :25:48.more now following that speech yesterday about where Ed Miliband
:25:48. > :25:52.wants to take the Labour Party? what is that direction? I do. The
:25:52. > :25:56.speech that out a clear path fault on which we can build a future
:25:56. > :26:01.manifesto to win the next general election. -- clear Platt for. It
:26:01. > :26:06.was about furnace from the top and bottom and creating an economy by -
:26:06. > :26:15.- based on a better bargain. People knew he was that go before but now
:26:15. > :26:24.there is a copper -- core feeling. What about the reference to
:26:24. > :26:27.predator companies? What do you think your leader was getting at?
:26:27. > :26:31.They are companies that prey on the consumer and do not come to be back
:26:31. > :26:38.to the people. Is that a message that you think is going to go down
:26:38. > :26:41.well with Labour supporters? but I don't think that is what Ed
:26:42. > :26:46.wants or what the Labour Party is moving towards. I think we are
:26:46. > :26:50.moving towards that if we are in government then companies will be
:26:50. > :26:55.more responsible and there will be more clearer guidance. Were you
:26:55. > :27:00.surprised that Scotland did not get a mention, apart from a verbal
:27:00. > :27:05.thumping of Fred Goodwin? Scotland wasn't mentioned by name, but his -
:27:05. > :27:09.- he spoke about messages that are relevant. Youth unemployment,
:27:09. > :27:12.getting jobs for young people and opportunities. If that is not
:27:12. > :27:17.relevant to Scotland than I do not know what is Foster up but it is
:27:17. > :27:22.strange, considering what happened to a party in May's elections.
:27:22. > :27:28.leader of the UK party did not feel he had to mention it in some way,
:27:28. > :27:32.even to try to say we did badly and we have to be built. He has been
:27:32. > :27:39.saying that for a long time and so has every Scottish MP at
:27:39. > :27:45.Westminster. The message is carried across the whole of the UK
:27:45. > :27:49.regardless of whether it is Scotland, England or Wales. Still
:27:49. > :27:53.the opinion polls are not good for a party. You would think at the
:27:53. > :28:00.moment with what has happened in the economy your party would be
:28:00. > :28:03.ahead of the polls, and yet you're behind. We are at the moment but
:28:03. > :28:08.there is a lot of trouble going on at the moment. People do not
:28:08. > :28:14.understand the situation. I think after the conference and see what
:28:14. > :28:20.the other parties have to say, people will see a Labour are more
:28:20. > :28:25.aggressive and they will secure jobs. If you have the chance to ask
:28:25. > :28:29.a question to the leader, what would it be? It would be, what
:28:29. > :28:39.would he do in government to advance a living wage up and down
:28:39. > :28:43.
:28:43. > :28:50.the country? Would the NHS privatise it? -- be prioritise to.
:28:50. > :28:54.An indication of the questions that our guests would ask. We were known
:28:54. > :28:58.a few hours whether people are going to asking those questions. --
:28:58. > :29:01.we will know. More than one in 10 adults are on
:29:01. > :29:06.anti-depressants in Scotland, according to official figures that
:29:06. > :29:09.show a continuing annual increase in the use of such drugs. This
:29:09. > :29:12.prompted concern from opposition politicians. At Holyrood the
:29:12. > :29:22.Government is setting out how it is thinking and our mental health
:29:22. > :29:26.
:29:26. > :29:30.services should operate. It has We are also met our target of 50%
:29:30. > :29:36.of all frontline staff who would receive appropriate suicide
:29:36. > :29:39.awareness training. We know that people with mental illness tend to
:29:39. > :29:44.die younger and generally from physical health conditions such as
:29:45. > :29:51.heart disease and diabetes. The work that we have taken forward to
:29:51. > :29:54.improve physical health of people with physical illnesses has
:29:54. > :29:59.resulted in patients receiving regular health checks, in
:29:59. > :30:07.developing healthy life styles and tackling issues such as smoking and
:30:07. > :30:14.diet. This will continue to be part of our work in delivering this and
:30:14. > :30:18.supporting patients' safety. As the first government to establish Tim
:30:18. > :30:28.Winter as a national priority, we publish Scotland's demand a
:30:28. > :30:29.
:30:29. > :30:34.strategy -- established dimension. What is being taken forward with
:30:34. > :30:41.health boards, local government and organisations such as Alzheimer's
:30:41. > :30:46.Scotland. We have exceeded our target for people with dementia
:30:46. > :30:53.being properly recorded. Diagnosis leads to better information and
:30:53. > :30:59.support, medication and physical health checks. We are looking at
:30:59. > :31:02.how we can improve and enhance post diagnostic support, learning from
:31:02. > :31:09.the pilots would have concluded and how we can offer this service in a
:31:09. > :31:15.way which meets the needs of people with dementia and their carers.
:31:15. > :31:20.I ask, I welcome the demerger strategy, but what I'm not seeing
:31:20. > :31:25.is the commitment to training -- of the dementia strategy. And staff
:31:25. > :31:30.awareness of dementia. We are continuing to progress the dementia
:31:30. > :31:35.strategy. We have an annual report that was published this year and
:31:35. > :31:40.there will be a further annual report. We will deal to check what
:31:40. > :31:42.progress has been made in these areas. We will continue to focus on
:31:42. > :31:48.two Change areas providing excellent support and information
:31:48. > :31:58.to people with the merger and their carers after diagnosis -- people
:31:58. > :32:08.
:32:08. > :32:12.with dementia. I can report that many organisations have been
:32:12. > :32:19.assisting in taking this forward. We identify broad areas of activity
:32:19. > :32:23.where we believe we can have an impact on outcomes. Where the focus
:32:23. > :32:26.is as -- is on target objectives, we believe the work will have
:32:26. > :32:34.broader benefit in integrating services and producing change. I
:32:34. > :32:44.have already mentioned work in two areas of the sex City, suicide
:32:44. > :32:44.
:32:44. > :32:49.reduction and dementia. We have already committed to meeting our
:32:49. > :32:52.target to faster access to mental health services by delivering the
:32:52. > :33:02.18 week referral to treatment for psychological therapies across all
:33:02. > :33:06.
:33:06. > :33:11.age group, from 20th December 14. - - from 20th December 14. It has
:33:11. > :33:17.involved significant efforts to work out how a complex system
:33:17. > :33:23.operates. We must remember that the work on access to psychological
:33:23. > :33:30.therapies is just one part of creating a well functioning mental
:33:30. > :33:39.health system. We will offer access to information and advice, self
:33:39. > :33:44.help approaches, some of which will be outlined online or through NHS
:33:44. > :33:48.24, through counselling and access to low-intensity treatments,
:33:48. > :33:55.including exercise for those who may be experiencing particular
:33:55. > :33:58.psychological distress. We also propose to look further at
:33:58. > :34:05.structuring services for people with severe and enduring mental
:34:05. > :34:09.health problems. During the last Parliament we undertook work to
:34:09. > :34:14.reduce remissions and outperformed our targets significantly. We
:34:14. > :34:20.looked at crisis and first contact services. During the next period we
:34:20. > :34:24.propose a more structured examination of first contact a
:34:24. > :34:31.crisis and in-patient services to develop recommendations for service
:34:31. > :34:36.redesign. We will become better at benchmarking information and we
:34:36. > :34:40.have experienced and expertise in local service. It is time to
:34:40. > :34:45.capitalise on that information that we have and to develop our
:34:45. > :34:50.understanding of to improve services more effectively.
:34:50. > :34:52.That is the public health minister laying out the strategy. Joining me
:34:52. > :34:58.now is the SNP MSP John Wilson who's taking part in today's
:34:58. > :35:06.parliamentary debate and Labour's health spokesperson, Jackie Baillie
:35:06. > :35:10.MSP Jackie Baillie,. We are picking out that one in 12 adults are
:35:10. > :35:14.thought to be on anti-depressants. How concerning is this? Extremely
:35:14. > :35:20.concerning. The figures are demonstrating a substantial rise
:35:20. > :35:25.over the last year. Medication may be helpful for some experience
:35:25. > :35:30.depression, but we have argued that access to psychological therapies,
:35:30. > :35:35.in many cases, is what is important. For GPs, they sometimes do not have
:35:35. > :35:38.the opportunity to axis that at the local level. We need to ensure
:35:38. > :35:42.there is an increase to psychological therapies. We need to
:35:42. > :35:46.be quite concerned about the increase in prescribing, not least
:35:46. > :35:52.because it signals overall an increase in the number of people
:35:52. > :35:57.experiencing mental health problems in Scotland. The Conservatives call
:35:57. > :36:01.the mental health services a Cinderella service, and when you
:36:01. > :36:05.were in power, and now with SNP in power, it remains a Cinderella
:36:05. > :36:10.service. There are not the service is available for people to access.
:36:10. > :36:13.I think you'll find that both governments, Labour, the Lib Dems
:36:13. > :36:17.and subsequently SNP have made great strides in trying to deal
:36:17. > :36:20.with the issue of mental health. They haven't experienced the
:36:20. > :36:24.increases in funding enjoyed by other parts of the Health Service.
:36:24. > :36:29.We now have a position where there is increasing demand. The numbers
:36:29. > :36:34.of people experiencing mental health problems is going up. What
:36:34. > :36:38.we eyewitnesses say... What will win this thing is cuts dividend Ziv
:36:38. > :36:43.services and also in our hospitals, reductions in in-patient beds that
:36:43. > :36:46.is leading to some mental health professionals concerned that their
:36:46. > :36:52.system is reaching crisis point. But is what we need to address. The
:36:52. > :36:56.Mental Health Strategy is welcome but we would like to see it more
:36:56. > :37:01.comprehensive, to look at mental health not just in the concept of
:37:01. > :37:04.the Health Service but through the course of somebody's life. Are we
:37:04. > :37:09.at crisis point? Leather-clad and the SNP have dropped their targets
:37:10. > :37:15.when it comes to cutting the use of anti-depressants -- Labour claimed.
:37:15. > :37:19.Why have you drop your targets? are at this stage because there has
:37:19. > :37:25.been added defied by a number of people, mental-health is seen as a
:37:25. > :37:28.Cinderella service -- it has been identified. And it has been for a
:37:28. > :37:33.number of years. More and more people, because of what is
:37:33. > :37:40.happening in society more widely, are finding themselves more
:37:40. > :37:44.stressed and looking for support. The difficulty is, they turn to
:37:44. > :37:51.their GPs and many GPs are not equipped to actually deal with
:37:51. > :37:56.mental health issues they are faced with. Unfortunately many rely on
:37:56. > :37:59.prescribing drugs to try to treat initially these conditions and we
:37:59. > :38:03.need to look at a comprehensive approach in terms of delivering
:38:03. > :38:07.mental health services, involving local authorities, and despite the
:38:07. > :38:11.accusation that Jackie Baillie has made about local authorities
:38:11. > :38:18.cutting local services, clearly there are a number of organisations
:38:18. > :38:21.out there, working in the field, voluntary sector organisations, and
:38:21. > :38:25.a wide range of mental health organisations who are working
:38:25. > :38:35.together to ensure we get Collette delivery of services. You printed
:38:35. > :38:39.
:38:39. > :38:42.out the problem that GPs give other drugs. What warm words do you have?
:38:42. > :38:49.It is about consultation and getting the message out there about
:38:49. > :38:54.what people require. That is working together. It is a range of
:38:54. > :38:58.services, coming together. We need to have that co-ordinated in a way
:38:58. > :39:02.that brings together all those services to ensure that people
:39:02. > :39:07.receive the treatment and distance of up that is needed. It is not
:39:07. > :39:11.always necessary for somebody who presents in initial stages with a
:39:11. > :39:14.mental health condition to go on to medication, and maybe other
:39:14. > :39:19.activities are being signposted that could deal with the issues
:39:19. > :39:24.more adequately rather than looking at prescription drugs. If that is
:39:24. > :39:29.the point of the strategy, how difficult is it to do that, Jacqui
:39:29. > :39:37.Smith? It didn't happen when you were in power. We did start on the
:39:37. > :39:43.road when Labour was in power. I think successive governments have
:39:43. > :39:48.tried to improve the situation. We need to recognise the numbers are
:39:48. > :39:52.rising. We have anti-depressant but grabbing going up, children still
:39:52. > :39:58.in adult mental health boards which is entirely inappropriate. We have
:39:58. > :40:02.witnessed on the ground, this isn't a sense his accusation. It is fact.
:40:02. > :40:07.There are projects on the ground that provide preventative care to
:40:07. > :40:12.mental health patients and their having the resources cut. We are
:40:12. > :40:16.actually adding up to a recipe for further crisis and I do think that
:40:16. > :40:20.there should be amongst the parties in the parliament a will to make
:40:20. > :40:23.this work more effectively. We welcome the consultation but it
:40:24. > :40:30.needs to do much more than it currently says on the tin. Thank
:40:30. > :40:33.you, Jackie Baillie and John Wilson. Final thoughts now on politics in
:40:33. > :40:39.Scotland and the rest of the UK before our coverage draws to a
:40:39. > :40:43.close. An interesting story developed this afternoon about the
:40:43. > :40:51.Tory leadership contest. We had Lord Forsyth, Michael Forsyth,
:40:51. > :41:00.saying that Murdo Fraser's plans to ditch the name in Scotland would be
:41:00. > :41:07.a great political error. Murdo Fraser has said people should avoid
:41:07. > :41:12.negative campaigning and temper the language. He has, with a
:41:12. > :41:17.characteristically forthright comment. It chose to the level of
:41:17. > :41:22.feeling in this campaign, which has really become a fight for the
:41:22. > :41:27.definition of the party. I think Murdo Fraser's camp is, there is a
:41:27. > :41:32.concern now about the way this has been received if we are allowed to
:41:32. > :41:40.believe what we are reading. David Porter is in Liverpool for us. What
:41:40. > :41:44.kind of conference has this been before Liverpool? And for Labour?
:41:44. > :41:47.And it moves forward for the Tories next week. As far as Labour are
:41:47. > :41:51.concerned in Liverpool, they feel more settled than they did this
:41:51. > :41:55.time last year, when of course they were just getting ready to get to
:41:55. > :41:59.terms with the defeat they suffered in the general election. Now Ed
:41:59. > :42:05.Miliband has been place for a year he has tried to articulate a
:42:05. > :42:09.picture of who the is and what he stands for. You're right, this
:42:09. > :42:17.conference backs up tomorrow and the party conference caravan moves
:42:17. > :42:20.to the east, to Manchester. The Conservatives. They are concerned
:42:20. > :42:23.that the dominant issue is going to be the economy and the problems
:42:23. > :42:26.with the economy and what can be done to try to get it back on
:42:26. > :42:30.course. As far as Scottish Conservatives are concerned, what
:42:30. > :42:33.you have been talking about, fighting for the soul of the party
:42:33. > :42:37.at the way it goes forward. Interestingly on the first major
:42:37. > :42:42.day of the Tory party conference, we will have all four candidates
:42:42. > :42:51.appearing at a Scottish French. That will be interesting for the
:42:51. > :42:55.How much will David Cameron try to pick up in Manchester on what Ed
:42:55. > :43:01.Miliband has been saying about the new economy, a new society? Will he
:43:01. > :43:04.take it on board? Absolutely. The language Ed Miliband used this week,
:43:04. > :43:08.the something for nothing culture, criticisms about the way the
:43:08. > :43:14.bankers have been going, Barbro much going to be similar themes
:43:14. > :43:19.that David Cameron will pick up one. -- are very much. His David Cameron
:43:19. > :43:22.going to come forward and put these points forward while looking like a
:43:22. > :43:27.leader? All the evidence at the moment shows that the public sees
:43:27. > :43:34.him as a leader and they did not see Ed Miliband as a leader. That
:43:34. > :43:39.is a big thing for Ed Miliband. How will he work on that? He has four
:43:39. > :43:45.years to persuade people that he could be a Prime Minister. They
:43:45. > :43:48.give a much to all our guests. -- thing to grow much Foster will back
:43:48. > :43:52.up the earlier time of 2pm next week and of course we will have