:00:16. > :00:17.Good afternoon and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:18. > :00:21.At Westminster, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn puts pressure on the Prime
:00:22. > :00:28.And at Holyrood, MSPs question senior college staff
:00:29. > :00:37.at the centre of a row over large redundancy pay-offs.
:00:38. > :00:39.Tax credits dominated Prime Minister's Questions today -
:00:40. > :00:41.hardly surprising after the House of Lords forced changes
:00:42. > :00:43.in the Government's plans earlier in the week.
:00:44. > :00:46.And there was a change of tack from Jeremy Corbyn - a woman called
:00:47. > :00:49.Karen who'd sent him a question did feature, but only towards the end.
:00:50. > :00:52.For the most part he kept asking David Cameron whether people
:00:53. > :00:57.on tax credits would lose money next April.
:00:58. > :01:02.I'm joined by our Westminster correspondent David Porter.
:01:03. > :01:10.David, you're looking very dry compared to most most people in
:01:11. > :01:14.Scotland. Most people seem to think Jeremy Corbyn did better this week?
:01:15. > :01:18.I think the tactic worked well for him. It was no surprise he was going
:01:19. > :01:21.to go on the issue of tax credits. It would have been extraordinary if
:01:22. > :01:26.he didn't. He used all six questions. Essentially it was the
:01:27. > :01:31.same question repeated six times: Are people going to be worse or
:01:32. > :01:36.better off next year, depending on what the Government is going to do
:01:37. > :01:39.on tax credits. David Cameron sidestepped it six times by saying
:01:40. > :01:43.we'll have to wait until the Autumn Statement, in about a month's time,
:01:44. > :01:48.when the Chancellor explains what he's going to do. It is fair to say
:01:49. > :01:53.since Monday night, to put it mildly, the UK Government has been
:01:54. > :01:57.on the back foot on this issue. And David Cameron like George Osborne
:01:58. > :02:01.yesterday very much going into a holding pattern, saying we'll have
:02:02. > :02:04.to wait now until the Autumn Statement before people get an
:02:05. > :02:08.indication of whether they are going to be better off or worse off.
:02:09. > :02:13.George Osborne said in principle he wants to go ahead, as he would call
:02:14. > :02:16.it, with reform to the welfare system. Others would say that's
:02:17. > :02:23.coded language for cuts to the system. If problem is if he softens
:02:24. > :02:28.or reduces the impact of those tax credit reductions he has to get the
:02:29. > :02:32.money from somewhere if he is to go ahead with the deficit reduction
:02:33. > :02:35.plans. What's happening now is the Treasury are throwing all the
:02:36. > :02:40.figures up in the air and they will come up with a plan by 25th
:02:41. > :02:45.November. That's the date of the Autumn Statement. It sounds perhaps
:02:46. > :02:50.to you and me that's a long time, a month they've got to get this
:02:51. > :02:53.together, but there are an awful lot of figures they've got to go for and
:02:54. > :02:56.they'll want to make sure that in Palestinian terms they do not
:02:57. > :03:00.perhaps fall on the banana skin that they have done with tax credits so
:03:01. > :03:06.far. From one controversy to another, David. The Prime Minister
:03:07. > :03:09.is about the shoot off to Iceland, where what's controversial about it
:03:10. > :03:13.is European leaders are meeting but he's going to make a speech isn't
:03:14. > :03:18.he, or is expected to make a speech which is firmly pro-European? He
:03:19. > :03:23.gave us a hint about it at Prime Minister's Question Time. He was
:03:24. > :03:27.asked about this. He's at a meeting of something called the Northern
:03:28. > :03:29.Forum, made up of the northern European countries. For the first
:03:30. > :03:33.time David Cameron is going to get off the fence and get stuck into the
:03:34. > :03:37.debate. If he is given the opportunity in a friendly question,
:03:38. > :03:41.let's put it that way, he will be asked what he thinks about the plans
:03:42. > :03:46.that Britain could be like Norway if it left the European Union and have
:03:47. > :03:49.the same relationship with the European Union that Norway has.
:03:50. > :03:53.Interestingly David Cameron will say that's not going to be a land of
:03:54. > :03:58.milk and honey. Norway, although it is not part of the European Union,
:03:59. > :04:04.still has to pay money to the European Union and has to abide by
:04:05. > :04:08.the trade agreements and the freedom movement of people. He will say it
:04:09. > :04:13.is not a cost-free option. This is the first time he's come out and
:04:14. > :04:17.said this. It is an indication perhaps in Downing Street that those
:04:18. > :04:20.who wish to stay within the European Union and those taking part in the
:04:21. > :04:23.negotiations that David Cameron is about to start in earnest with other
:04:24. > :04:26.European Union countries are perhaps a little bit worried that they feel
:04:27. > :04:33.that they are not getting their argument over at the moment. Hence
:04:34. > :04:37.why he's coming and it will be seen by many as a European friendly
:04:38. > :04:39.speech. Thank you David. We'll be back with you later.
:04:40. > :04:41.Now, at Holyrood, the former principal of
:04:42. > :04:43.Coatbridge College has told MSPs his reputation has been "trashed"
:04:44. > :04:48.over accusations that he'd fixed an over-generous severance payment.
:04:49. > :04:51.Let's cross to Holyrood for more on this now with our political
:04:52. > :05:01.Good afternoon, a big issue here at Holyrood today. MSPs and the public
:05:02. > :05:05.audit committee are determined to get to the bottom of it. You will
:05:06. > :05:10.remember in the past few years we've seen mergers of colleges in Scotland
:05:11. > :05:15.to create supercolleges to save money on staff costs and a whole
:05:16. > :05:20.different focus on the purpose of colleges. Coatbridge College was one
:05:21. > :05:27.of those that merged with surrounding countries to create a
:05:28. > :05:33.new college in Lanarkshire. The departing principal has been accused
:05:34. > :05:40.of creating overgenerous severance payments. Perhaps thought to be
:05:41. > :05:45.?304,000 paid out to him. The Auditor General, Caroline Gardener,
:05:46. > :05:49.said this was the most egregious case she had seen. A member of the
:05:50. > :05:55.committee accused Mr Doyle of feathering his nest. It was Mr
:05:56. > :05:59.Doyle's chance to appear before MPs to take on these criticisms and
:06:00. > :06:04.accusations. This is his reaction to the Auditor General's report. I
:06:05. > :06:09.think it is incomplete and accurate and vexatious. There was no Col
:06:10. > :06:15.usual in terms of my voluntary severance. It was based on a scheme
:06:16. > :06:22.for all colleges in Lanarkshire, so I take exception to the way in which
:06:23. > :06:25.the Auditor General said herself that limited evidence, our
:06:26. > :06:29.reputations have been absolutely trashed when we've done nothing
:06:30. > :06:34.wrong. Strong words there, reputation absolutely trashed. Mr
:06:35. > :06:37.Doyle denies any wrongdoing, he acted within the appropriate
:06:38. > :06:48.guidelines. Talking about guidelines, the former chairman of
:06:49. > :07:02.the board, John Grate appeared before MPs. You withheld and
:07:03. > :07:07.concealed information from that committee because it was not in the
:07:08. > :07:11.interests of the severance payment for senior staff, is that correct?
:07:12. > :07:15.No. That is the conclusion of the Auditor General. That's a serious
:07:16. > :07:20.point. That that's fine for her to conclude what she likes. I can say
:07:21. > :07:23.categorically I never withheld anything from any of the committees
:07:24. > :07:29.I was involved... That'sth that's not what committee members are
:07:30. > :07:35.saying. Andrew, I believe there's a subplot here, I don't know if it is
:07:36. > :07:41.an egregious plot. Great word that. It is interesting, Mr Doyle, the
:07:42. > :07:44.former principal, was hinting that Scottish Government advisers had
:07:45. > :07:51.told him that he wasn't really welcome in the new college and he
:07:52. > :07:57.really had to make way. In his meetings with one Scottish adviser
:07:58. > :08:02.called Roger Mullin. Interestingly Roger Mullin is the SNP's Treasury
:08:03. > :08:07.spokesman at Westminster. Mary Scanlon also put this point, that Mr
:08:08. > :08:10.Doyle wasn't wanted in the picture, to the Scottish Funding Council
:08:11. > :08:15.officials, who also appeared before the MSPs. She accused them of
:08:16. > :08:18.turning a blind eye to the overgenerous severance payments
:08:19. > :08:22.because they wanted to smooth the way to ease the transition into the
:08:23. > :08:28.new college and help Mr Doyle along the way and out of the picture. But
:08:29. > :08:32.they denied they turned a blind eye. MSPs on the committee say they are
:08:33. > :08:35.going to take further evidence. We expect the Education Secretary to be
:08:36. > :08:38.called before them to give evidence at some point in the near future.
:08:39. > :08:40.Thank you Andrew. My guest for today is
:08:41. > :08:42.Lindsay McIntosh, Scottish political editor at
:08:43. > :08:52.The Times. What do you make about this?
:08:53. > :08:59.Coatbridge college? Yes. The language is fascinating. We don't
:09:00. > :09:03.get words like egregious and feathering your nest bandied about.
:09:04. > :09:08.She gave evidence to a previous committee meeting. John Doyle's
:09:09. > :09:12.response was interesting, accusing the Auditor General of a vexatious
:09:13. > :09:17.report. The Auditor General I'm sure is many things but I'm not sure
:09:18. > :09:20.she's got an axe to grind in this. Going on the attack like that
:09:21. > :09:24.doesn't necessarily help his case with the public. Broader issues to
:09:25. > :09:31.do with education, particularly student debt. That's right. We saw
:09:32. > :09:35.some numbers the the papers today which show an increasing reliance on
:09:36. > :09:41.loans among students as opposed to grants. We know the SNP had stood on
:09:42. > :09:44.a pledge to dump student debts. That's pipe dream now. Students,
:09:45. > :09:50.rather than getting help with their living costs that they are not going
:09:51. > :09:56.to pay bay, they are getting increasingly large loans. The NUS
:09:57. > :10:01.says they are pleased there is an increase in overall student support
:10:02. > :10:05.but they are concerned that much of this is from loans, instead of
:10:06. > :10:09.grants. I know there are arguments about the statistics but
:10:10. > :10:12.statisticians argue there's a big gap between students from lower
:10:13. > :10:19.income backgrounds in universities in Scotland compared to England.
:10:20. > :10:25.And, of course, presumably if that's the case, then the relatively lack
:10:26. > :10:30.of availability of grants rather than... Would be part of that?
:10:31. > :10:36.Particularly as the SNP Government made a big case about keeping
:10:37. > :10:42.tuition fees free as opposed to in England where you have to pay for
:10:43. > :10:46.tuition. Their argument is it encourages poor children from
:10:47. > :10:49.worse-off backgrounds to go to university, surely therefore free
:10:50. > :10:53.living costs would also encourage them to go, but they don't seem to
:10:54. > :10:58.be taking their argument to that side of the debate. Presumably what
:10:59. > :11:04.the SNP's opponents are hoping to turn this into is an argument that
:11:05. > :11:08.like cutting prescription charges, this is actually, the tuition fees
:11:09. > :11:11.is a subsidy to the middle classes, which harms working class students
:11:12. > :11:16.rather than what you say, this is that it is the other way round.
:11:17. > :11:19.Exactly. Everyone wants to close the attainment gap in Scottish
:11:20. > :11:22.education. Everyone wants to encourage children of all
:11:23. > :11:26.backgrounds, at whatever stage of life, to go on to university. We
:11:27. > :11:29.need to close that gap. These figures released today suggest that
:11:30. > :11:36.there's more work that can be done to do that. We'll talk to you later.
:11:37. > :11:40.First to the chamber at Holyrood, where Scottish Conservatives have
:11:41. > :11:43.chosen to debate universities. Their motion expresses concern that the
:11:44. > :11:48.higher education governance bill could lead to universities being
:11:49. > :11:52.reclassified as part of the public sector, which would threaten their
:11:53. > :11:58.independence. Liz Smith is speaking now. Indeed it is abundantly clear
:11:59. > :12:01.from the evidence sessions both the education and the Finance Committees
:12:02. > :12:04.of this Parliament that the Scottish Parliament has been unable to
:12:05. > :12:08.produce the necessary paperwork to defence its cause. Hence the reason
:12:09. > :12:13.why the assumption remains and it's the reason for this debate this
:12:14. > :12:17.afternoon. Deputy Presiding Officer, we take the Scottish Government at
:12:18. > :12:21.its word. The high ear education bill is designed to expand academic
:12:22. > :12:26.freedom. It would be good to know how you see that taking place. And
:12:27. > :12:30.to increase the democracy, transparency and accountability
:12:31. > :12:35.between University governance. The Scottish Government claims the bill
:12:36. > :12:39.is essential that governors account for money received, and tells us
:12:40. > :12:45.that the bill is merely building on best practice that is already there.
:12:46. > :12:48.So why then has there been such wide ranging and fierce criticism not
:12:49. > :12:55.just within the sector but amongst business and civic Scotland. The
:12:56. > :12:57.names which my colleague Annabel Goldie listed here before the
:12:58. > :13:03.recess, are significant in their number and opposition. Partly it is
:13:04. > :13:07.because they are unpersuaded there's a fundamental failure in the system
:13:08. > :13:11.of university governance which is acting to the detriment of higher
:13:12. > :13:20.education. Why, they ask, when there are so many serious issues, such as
:13:21. > :13:24.closing the attainment gap, increasing numeracy and literacy,
:13:25. > :13:31.why are they so focused on a problem for which there appears to be so
:13:32. > :13:36.evidence? The greatest anger is two key aspects of the bill, sections 8,
:13:37. > :13:40.13 and 30, which would change the nature of our higher education
:13:41. > :13:42.institutions. Specifically by increasing ministerial powers and
:13:43. > :13:47.making universities into public sector bodies. Through the recent
:13:48. > :13:51.exchanges at the finance and Education Committees which chamber
:13:52. > :13:56.knows that University Scotland has substantive reasons for being
:13:57. > :13:59.concerned about the prospect of the Office for National Statistics
:14:00. > :14:04.reclassification of universities. These concerns come about after
:14:05. > :14:07.their careful consideration of the relevance guidance on
:14:08. > :14:10.reclassification issued by ONS, the consideration of a bill alongside
:14:11. > :14:13.existing controls on universities, and consideration of Treasury
:14:14. > :14:18.guidance about the application of the European system of accounts
:14:19. > :14:24.2010. That might sound technical, but it matters. It matters a lot.
:14:25. > :14:28.Because University Scotland make the point that Government powers over an
:14:29. > :14:31.institution's constitution are seen within the European system of
:14:32. > :14:35.accounts as the important indicator of whether an institution should be
:14:36. > :14:40.classified as being within the public sector. And however much the
:14:41. > :14:48.Scottish Government protests, this bill as it stands just now expressly
:14:49. > :14:50.gives Ministers the power to amend University's constitutions by
:14:51. > :14:55.altering the constitution of their governing bodies. A point confirmed
:14:56. > :14:59.by Government officials on 6th October. It changes University'
:15:00. > :15:02.constitutions by giving Ministers the powers to determine the
:15:03. > :15:08.selection method and term of office of the chair and governing body. It
:15:09. > :15:12.expressly gives Ministers the power to change constitutions by changing
:15:13. > :15:15.the membership of their internal academic regulatory body. And
:15:16. > :15:20.Treasury guidance an sector classification makes it clear that
:15:21. > :15:25.there's a risk even if Ministers do not themselves appoint the members
:15:26. > :15:26.of governing body. The Scottish Government tells us repeatedly that
:15:27. > :16:15.this is not its intention. It has no Government tells us repeatedly that
:16:16. > :16:19.key issues of this bill and the ones I have referred to in the evidence
:16:20. > :16:21.are very clear that the Scottish government's reasons for doing
:16:22. > :18:04.there is a theoretical risk of what Alex Johnson has described is
:18:05. > :18:11.happening, why are the MSP is pushing on with this, it is hard to
:18:12. > :18:14.see what is the benefit of this? We are opening up universities,
:18:15. > :18:19.bringing transparency to the presence of governance and quite
:18:20. > :18:22.frankly bringing them into the 21st century. There is an awful lot of
:18:23. > :18:27.scaremongering here about this. There is frankly no risk to the
:18:28. > :18:37.charitable status of universities. That has been made very clear. That
:18:38. > :18:44.has been made clear by Oscar. Who is Oscar? The office of the Scottish
:18:45. > :18:51.charities regulator. There is no risk here in terms of charitable
:18:52. > :18:55.status. ONS go about their business independently but there is no
:18:56. > :18:59.intention as the government has said of allowing this to happen, there
:19:00. > :19:03.are keeping a close eye on it and there is evidence to the committee
:19:04. > :19:09.saying the risk to this is extremely low.
:19:10. > :19:13.Richard Simpson, there is a broader issue about universities today,
:19:14. > :19:17.these statistics showing that students from less well-off
:19:18. > :19:25.backgrounds are taking on loans of almost ?6,000 a year. Is this not
:19:26. > :19:28.just to be expected? No, not really. The maintenance grants from the
:19:29. > :19:33.Scottish government have been reduced and the OECD report two
:19:34. > :19:39.years ago indicated that Scotland has the lowest maintenance grant of
:19:40. > :19:43.any OECD country apart from Iceland so that is a problem. The other
:19:44. > :19:49.thing the government have to answer on the Bill issue is can they
:19:50. > :19:51.absolutely guarantee, it is not a question of being low risk, there
:19:52. > :19:55.must be no risk of the ONS reclassifying because the results of
:19:56. > :19:59.that will be disastrous. We need to have a response from the ONS to the
:20:00. > :20:05.bill and without that there are really quite serious questions here.
:20:06. > :20:09.Stewart Maxwell, have you asked the ONS for a response to the bill or
:20:10. > :20:13.have you taken legal advice to back up what you have just told us which
:20:14. > :20:25.you said a moment ago, it simply wasn't an issue? What doesn't happen
:20:26. > :20:29.is the ONS does not say what will happen in the future, they wait for
:20:30. > :20:35.the outcome and then they take a decision. Have you taken legal
:20:36. > :20:40.advice? No, we have not. The government have legal advice into
:20:41. > :20:45.enemy. They have Loyalist to look at every piece of legislation that is
:20:46. > :20:51.drafted. The ONS is independent and takes a decision at the end of the
:20:52. > :20:54.process. The fact is, this is scaremongering. I really don't think
:20:55. > :20:59.this is the issue we should be talking about. What we should be
:21:00. > :21:04.talking about is bringing real modern governance to our university
:21:05. > :21:08.sector. I think it is only fair that there is proper justification for
:21:09. > :21:11.that money, there is proper governance over the process that
:21:12. > :21:17.happen at university and that is what this bill is about. Can I just
:21:18. > :21:21.say that many people in the sector, the colleges union, NUS and many
:21:22. > :21:26.others and academics have contacted me saying they very much support the
:21:27. > :21:30.bill and it is very much time that this happened.
:21:31. > :21:35.Alex Johnstone, you are backward looking scaremonger? I am afraid I
:21:36. > :21:41.am just cautious in this regard. Experience indicates the right way
:21:42. > :21:45.for the government to proceed is to eliminate the risk of classification
:21:46. > :21:52.or reclassification taking place. I want to bring up a broader issue
:21:53. > :21:55.about students being from not very well-off backgrounds becoming
:21:56. > :21:59.increasingly reliant on debt. Is that something the Conservatives
:22:00. > :22:03.take up? There is argument over whether these statistics really do
:22:04. > :22:07.show that students from poorer backgrounds in England have now got
:22:08. > :22:12.a better chance of getting to university than students in
:22:13. > :22:15.Scotland? I would take the view that the statistics show this is the case
:22:16. > :22:19.and what is happening in Scotland, it has been a policy pursued in a
:22:20. > :22:30.different way for a number of years now. It is opposed to benefit
:22:31. > :22:32.students and the evidence suggest it simply is not. Is it your contention
:22:33. > :22:37.that not having tuition fees, there is a lot of arguments that these
:22:38. > :22:42.universal benefits like abolishing prescriptions benefits the middle
:22:43. > :22:46.classes more than the poor, is it your belief that not having tuition
:22:47. > :22:54.fees would be the same as that? It is my belief that not having tuition
:22:55. > :22:58.fees in Scotland has meant spending is at the level it needs to be and
:22:59. > :23:01.the result of that which is manifest clearly in this legislation is that
:23:02. > :23:10.they're in dependence is being eroded. Stewart Maxwell, on this
:23:11. > :23:13.point about the amount of debt students are taking out, this is
:23:14. > :23:19.presumably the opposite of the outcome you have wanted. The
:23:20. > :23:23.allegation is that you are making it more difficult and the statistics
:23:24. > :23:26.show you are making it more difficult for students from lower
:23:27. > :23:32.income backgrounds in Scotland to get to university than in England?
:23:33. > :23:37.Identix at that. If you look at the levels of debt... Sorry, you don't
:23:38. > :23:43.accept the statistics which show that to be the case? I don't accept
:23:44. > :23:46.we are making it more difficult for students to go to university. If you
:23:47. > :23:49.look at the average level of debt students take on in Scotland versus
:23:50. > :23:53.the average level of debt English students take on, there is no
:23:54. > :23:57.comparison. Students in England take on many times the level of debt
:23:58. > :24:09.students in Scotland are taking on. The idea somehow that levels of debt
:24:10. > :24:12.in Scotland are causing the problem here is not true, because the levels
:24:13. > :24:14.of debt in England are much, much, much higher because of the tuition
:24:15. > :24:18.fees regime which frankly is failing in England. Elsewhere in Europe,
:24:19. > :24:22.they are moving back towards a system of free tuition in their
:24:23. > :24:27.universities sector as well. I noticed the audience slipway you'd
:24:28. > :24:34.nearly said the problem rather than our problem, -- the Freudian slip,
:24:35. > :24:39.due accept that nowadays the lower income youngster has a better chance
:24:40. > :24:44.of getting to university in England rather than Scotland's? No, I don't.
:24:45. > :24:49.If you have a situation of tuition fees, it is not about those at the
:24:50. > :24:59.very bottom, but many, many working families, ordinary people, a bus
:25:00. > :25:02.strive and a nurse whose children want to go to university, they are
:25:03. > :25:04.caught up in that tuition fees trap and that is a real problem for a
:25:05. > :25:06.whole swathe of society. Many struggling people are trapped and
:25:07. > :25:10.caught by that particular problem. We don't want to see that and I
:25:11. > :25:14.think it is the right policy to make sure children in Scotland grow up
:25:15. > :25:20.and have the chance to go to university. Richard Simpson, do you
:25:21. > :25:24.agree that the statistics now seem to show that children or youngsters
:25:25. > :25:29.in Scotland from poor backgrounds have less of a chance of getting to
:25:30. > :25:34.university than in England? I don't think it is less of a chance. The
:25:35. > :25:37.fact is, statistics show that fewer people from deprived or poor
:25:38. > :25:40.backgrounds are going to universities in Scotland and that is
:25:41. > :25:45.something the government will have to address. I think the tuition fee
:25:46. > :25:48.argument is a diversion from this. It is a question of making sure
:25:49. > :25:57.there is adequate support in place for those who are seeking to go to
:25:58. > :25:59.university. Programmes like Reach which encourage children to schools,
:26:00. > :26:04.to give them the support in schools that is necessary, that is what is
:26:05. > :26:09.vital. The real problem here is under the Scottish government, under
:26:10. > :26:12.the SNP government, the educational attainment gap has become much
:26:13. > :26:18.greater and that is the fundamental problem. That is not true. We will
:26:19. > :26:23.have to leave it. Can this be a yes or a no, what is Labour's position
:26:24. > :26:29.on tuition fees in Scotland? We are not in favour of tuition fees. Thank
:26:30. > :26:32.you. Back to the chamber now,
:26:33. > :26:34.where MSPs are debating a Conservative motion which
:26:35. > :26:46.expresses concern about changes The 2014 research excellence
:26:47. > :26:52.framework exercise. Residing officer, turning now to the higher
:26:53. > :26:56.education governance Bill, essentially, it aims to strengthen
:26:57. > :27:01.governance in our institutions, making them more modern, transparent
:27:02. > :27:07.and inclusive. The bill's content has been informed by the evidence
:27:08. > :27:14.gathered and recommendations set out in the review of the higher
:27:15. > :27:18.education governance published in 2012. Presiding Officer, this
:27:19. > :27:21.government has listened carefully to the views expressed by all
:27:22. > :27:27.stakeholders and partners on the provisions in the bill and is
:27:28. > :27:32.familiar with them and respectful of the arguments advanced. I will give
:27:33. > :27:38.way briefly to Mr Brown. I'm grateful. Can she confirmed that the
:27:39. > :27:42.clauses which cause the most concern were not part of that review and
:27:43. > :27:46.were not part of the government consultation on the bill? I'm
:27:47. > :27:51.certainly aware that there are four clauses in the bill that some
:27:52. > :28:03.stakeholders have genuinely held beliefs about. Section one, section
:28:04. > :28:08.one, I will get your answer if you deem me the courtesy of listening,
:28:09. > :28:15.section one is purely creating a space to allow for that further
:28:16. > :28:18.dialogue and to create an opportunity for co-design across the
:28:19. > :28:24.sector about the process of how chairs can be nominated and elected.
:28:25. > :28:29.It is the government's intention that by stage two, there will be
:28:30. > :28:34.staged to amendments to replace section one. With regard to sections
:28:35. > :28:41.eight, 13 and 20, those are quite simply about future proofing a
:28:42. > :28:45.bill, a bill which has very discreet purposes, but where I can give an
:28:46. > :28:51.assurance to Mr Brown, because we view all commentators as critical
:28:52. > :28:56.threats. Where there is scope to alleviate concerns, concerns I don't
:28:57. > :29:01.accept, but nonetheless, where there is scope to refine and improve
:29:02. > :29:06.draughtsman and alleviate concerns and make improvements, we will
:29:07. > :29:11.indeed take the opportunity to improve those aspects of the Bill.
:29:12. > :29:15.Let me make some progress and I may come back to Miss Smith. Residing
:29:16. > :29:21.officer, I want to make four very clear statements aimed at addressing
:29:22. > :29:25.the points made by some stakeholders and of course by the Conservatives
:29:26. > :29:28.in their opening address. Firstly, the Scottish government does not
:29:29. > :29:34.seek to advance ministerial control of the higher it jubilation
:29:35. > :29:39.institutions, either by this government or any future government
:29:40. > :29:41.-- higher education institutions. Scottish universities are autonomous
:29:42. > :29:46.bodies and will remain slow and we are crystal clear on that point.
:29:47. > :29:55.Further, we are not of the view that the content of this bill adds to any
:29:56. > :29:58.risk of reclassification of Scottish higher education institutions as
:29:59. > :30:02.public sector bodies by the Office for National Statistics. I have
:30:03. > :30:10.written to the Finance committee to that effect and note that the
:30:11. > :30:17.recommendation that all analysis be shared prior to the stage one debate
:30:18. > :30:21.to be held early in 2016. And next, reclassification, and I have to
:30:22. > :30:25.stress this, presiding officer, reclassification is an outcome that
:30:26. > :30:29.the Scottish government would never want to realise. Finally, I welcome
:30:30. > :30:33.the comments of the finance committee on its recent report on
:30:34. > :30:40.the finance memorandum to the bill, that the written evidence admitted
:30:41. > :30:42.to the committee by the Scottish Charity regulator addresses
:30:43. > :30:47.satisfactorily the points made by some stakeholders that the bill's
:30:48. > :30:48.position might jeopardise the charitable status of our higher
:30:49. > :30:57.educational institutions. ,000 for what you just said, but I'm
:30:58. > :31:02.afraid I don't accept that there's any clarity there whatsoever. On the
:31:03. > :31:07.6th October, one of your Scottish Government officials was asked by
:31:08. > :31:11.myself if there would be any alteration to constitutions of
:31:12. > :31:16.universities. After a long wrangle it transpired that actually yes
:31:17. > :31:20.there would be some changes to that. And that by definition, Cabinet
:31:21. > :31:26.Secretariers means the Government is taking some ministerial control. And
:31:27. > :31:28.the follow-on from that is that that has an implication for the
:31:29. > :31:33.reclassification. That's the concern. Concern. Your officials are
:31:34. > :31:39.not in tune with what you're saying. The bottom line, Ms Smith, is that
:31:40. > :31:46.this bill does not give me any more powers as a Minister. And if we need
:31:47. > :31:51.to refine aspects of the bill to clarify that, we will indeed. We
:31:52. > :31:57.haven't even reached, well, we've not reached stage 2 yet, a very
:31:58. > :32:05.important part of the parliamentary process. We gave a commitment to
:32:06. > :32:10.serious discussion with our stake holders. Regarding the specific
:32:11. > :32:17.point about altering constitutions of high er education institutions
:32:18. > :32:20.and the point she makes about ONS. In evidence to the committee, Oscar
:32:21. > :32:26.examined in detail whether or not the bill's impact on the
:32:27. > :32:32.constitutions of the ancients would revisit in the charitable status,
:32:33. > :32:37.result in charitable status being jeopardised and they concluded that
:32:38. > :32:42.that is not the case. Prior to recess Ruth Davidson said the bill
:32:43. > :32:46.could jeopardise charitable status. I would hope the chamber and indeed
:32:47. > :32:51.Conservatives would accept that that's not the case. I need to make
:32:52. > :32:56.some progress, Presiding Officer. I want to focus on the overarching aim
:32:57. > :33:01.of this bill. This Government is committed to creating a fairer, more
:33:02. > :33:04.inclusive Scotland, one which better reflects our nation's diversity and
:33:05. > :33:11.which everyone gets to have their say. And by enabling a more
:33:12. > :33:15.transparent and open governance in our universities we can ensure that
:33:16. > :33:20.every rose in the campus community is heard and involved in taking
:33:21. > :33:23.decisions. That was the Education Secretary, Angela Constance.
:33:24. > :33:26.The Business Secretary, Sajid Javid, is in Brussels today to hold talks
:33:27. > :33:29.with his European counterparts to discuss the recent wave of job cuts
:33:30. > :33:32.in the steel industry - among them are 270 jobs at Tata Steel's
:33:33. > :33:34.Dalzell steel processing plant in Motherwell,
:33:35. > :33:35.and the Clydebridge works in Cambuslang.
:33:36. > :33:37.Unfortunately, it was "not possible to accommodate
:33:38. > :33:39.the request" from Scottish Government to be represented
:33:40. > :33:40.at the talks this afternoon in Brussels.
:33:41. > :33:43.But the Business Minister, Fergus Ewing told MSPs yesterday
:33:44. > :33:45.that an international prospectus is being prepared to try to find
:33:46. > :33:47.an alternative buyer for the two sites in Scotland.
:33:48. > :33:51.Mr Ewing said the taskforce set up to help save the jobs would meet
:33:52. > :33:59.Our top priority is to secure and alternative operator to continue
:34:00. > :34:05.with commercial production. We are aware that this task is not an easy
:34:06. > :34:09.one, and that there are significant challenges facing the continued
:34:10. > :34:16.production of steel in Scotland. But we are, as a Government, determined
:34:17. > :34:20.to use all our resources, devote all our individual time and attention as
:34:21. > :34:25.Ministers as required, and do absolutely everything that we can to
:34:26. > :34:31.prevent the loss of steel making in Scotland. The price of steel has
:34:32. > :34:38.fallen significantly as worldwide production has almost doubled since
:34:39. > :34:43.2000. Cheap subsidised steel is widely available on western markets.
:34:44. > :34:46.High energy costs, particularly affecting energy intensive
:34:47. > :34:50.industries and a strong pound has hit export opportunities. Tata's
:34:51. > :34:54.operations in Scotland and the rest of the UK have suffered greatly
:34:55. > :35:02.against this background, as have other stem cell companies in the UK.
:35:03. > :35:10.Last week administrators were appointed to parts of another steel
:35:11. > :35:14.plant. Last month at Redcar, the Westminster Government called for a
:35:15. > :35:20.UK steel summit. The Scottish Government was represented at the UK
:35:21. > :35:23.summit and yesterday in discussions with Anna Soubry, the Minister for
:35:24. > :35:26.small business, industry and enterprise, we confirmed that we
:35:27. > :35:31.will co-operate with the UK Government and contribute fully to
:35:32. > :35:36.this work. I wrote to Anna Soubry on 20th October and asked that the
:35:37. > :35:40.Prime Minister continued to urge the Chinese premier to take voluntary
:35:41. > :35:47.action to reduce capacity in the Chinese steel actor and reduce the
:35:48. > :35:51.volume of exports. I urged the Government the help with energy
:35:52. > :35:55.costs for the steel sector by bringing forward the implementation
:35:56. > :35:59.of all the provisions of the energy intensive industries compensation
:36:00. > :36:05.package, from April 2016 to October 2015. I also asked for the UK
:36:06. > :36:11.Government to put as much pressure as possible on the EU to complete as
:36:12. > :36:14.quickly as possible an investigation into Chinese steel imports into
:36:15. > :36:24.Europe and whether it constitutes illegal dumping. When I spoke to
:36:25. > :36:29.Anna Soubry I assured her we shall contribute fully to negotiations.
:36:30. > :36:33.I'm chairing a Scottish steel task force, which has representatives of
:36:34. > :36:37.Lanarkshire council, trade unions, and members of this chamber and the
:36:38. > :36:42.Westminster Government and will co-ordinate the development of a
:36:43. > :36:46.joint multi-agency economic recovery plan to mitigate the economic
:36:47. > :36:50.impacts of the area resulting from Tata Steel's announcement. The task
:36:51. > :36:54.force will first meet on Thursday this week and already have Tata
:36:55. > :36:59.Steel's commitment to playing a full part in the task force process and
:37:00. > :37:03.to working closely with us throughout the consultation period.
:37:04. > :37:06.We are very grateful for that co-operation. The Scottish
:37:07. > :37:12.Government, Scottish enterprise, with support from Tata, are
:37:13. > :37:16.developing an information prospectus which will allow international
:37:17. > :37:20.offices worldwide to generate interest in the opportunity
:37:21. > :37:26.presented by this situation in Scotland. Scotland. Scotland. I
:37:27. > :37:28.believe can be a viable future for the steel industry this Scotland.
:37:29. > :37:33.Presiding Officer, this Government will do everything in its power to
:37:34. > :37:40.seek a secure and sustainable future for the Tata sites in Scotland. That
:37:41. > :37:42.was the Business Minister Fergus Ewing speaking to MSPs yesterday.
:37:43. > :37:54.Can you see this coming to anything either in England or up here? I
:37:55. > :37:58.think the hard economic facts that were outlined by Fergusuing in that
:37:59. > :38:02.piece suggests that perhaps not, despite all the work that's being
:38:03. > :38:06.done. We are talking about the impact that the strength of the
:38:07. > :38:11.pound has on exports and the dumping of cheap Chinese steel in the UK.
:38:12. > :38:15.Those are from what I can see the reasons that Tata is pulling out of
:38:16. > :38:22.Scotland, with the loss of all these jobs. So with the best will in the
:38:23. > :38:27.world it is difficult to see, not impossible, what the UK and
:38:28. > :38:31.Government Governments can there. What was interesting is how
:38:32. > :38:35.collegiate the working seems to be with the UK Government. They are
:38:36. > :38:40.complaining about not being able to go to the European summit. But
:38:41. > :38:43.yesterday the language was good from fer us the. We have so much
:38:44. > :38:47.criticism of the Scottish Government when it seeks to pick a fight with
:38:48. > :38:52.Westminster on various issues, but Fergus is keen to work with them and
:38:53. > :38:59.to get the best outcome. Fergus Ewing says there's a case for them
:39:00. > :39:04.being represented in this European summit, apparently the British
:39:05. > :39:08.Government says you can't do that and we'll represent the whole of the
:39:09. > :39:12.UK. It is an issue that comes up with European talks, with the likes
:39:13. > :39:17.of fishing and so on. They have a case to make they should be there,
:39:18. > :39:21.given the impact north of the border, but given we did vote to
:39:22. > :39:28.stay in the union, maybe this is one for the UK to fight on behalf of the
:39:29. > :39:32.whole of the UK. I was finding difficulty in following the exact
:39:33. > :39:37.details of the debate, but talking about constitution of the kin
:39:38. > :39:41.constituents, that was in a seminar about ancient Greece. Am I right in
:39:42. > :39:46.thinking that Angela Constance seemed to be saying on this question
:39:47. > :39:50.of whether or not university could lose their charitien, state us that
:39:51. > :39:55.she was open to redrafting the legislation if people came up with
:39:56. > :40:00.proposals? I think she said that. She certainly said she was
:40:01. > :40:04.listening. I think there's a charitable status issue, the Oscar
:40:05. > :40:06.issue we were hearing about earlier, and the public body
:40:07. > :40:12.reclassification, which would be ONS. The very fact that even Stuart
:40:13. > :40:16.Maxwell is saying there's a risk this could happen, albeit a low one,
:40:17. > :40:21.surely if we are hearing that we should be stepping back and thinking
:40:22. > :40:23.there's a need perhaps for redrafting, as Angela Constance
:40:24. > :40:24.seemed to be saying. And now to
:40:25. > :40:26.Prime Minister's Questions. David Cameron has refused to spell
:40:27. > :40:30.out how the Government will change its plans on tax credits,
:40:31. > :40:33.following the defeat of the measures The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn,
:40:34. > :40:36.repeatedly asked Mr Cameron if he could guarantee that
:40:37. > :40:38.low-income households wouldn't be worse off when the changes came
:40:39. > :40:58.into force next April. worse off when the changes came
:40:59. > :41:03.to the House and to the wider country that nobody will be worse
:41:04. > :41:08.off next year as a result of cuts to working tax credits? What I can
:41:09. > :41:14.guarantee is that we remain committed to the vision of a
:41:15. > :41:18.high-pay, low-tax, lower welfare economy. And we believe the way to
:41:19. > :41:23.make sure that everyone is better off is keep growing our economy,
:41:24. > :41:24.keep inflation low, keep cutting people's taxes and introduce the
:41:25. > :42:24.national Living Wage. people's taxes and introduce the
:42:25. > :43:43.could give the answer people's taxes and introduce the
:43:44. > :43:46.he talks about, because it has personal and medical data in it
:43:47. > :43:50.which would not be appropriate for publication. If I've got that
:43:51. > :43:58.wrongly write to him, but that's my clear memory of looking into his
:43:59. > :44:00.question after last week. Tim Salter from Stourbridge in the West
:44:01. > :44:06.Midlands was 53 when he took his life. The coroner ruled that a
:44:07. > :44:14.mainly factor in his death was that state benefits had been, I quote,
:44:15. > :44:20.greatly reduced, ly reduced, leaving him almost -- destitute. His sister
:44:21. > :44:23.says the DWP needs to publish these reviews. The Prime Minister says he
:44:24. > :44:27.is concerned about the views of the families involved. The families say
:44:28. > :44:34.the findings should be published. Will he publish the findings? 3
:44:35. > :44:38.million families are going to get their child tax credits cancelled.
:44:39. > :44:42.We need answers. Let me correct him on his last point. Under the
:44:43. > :44:46.proposals we put forward, those people on the lowest level of pay
:44:47. > :44:50.were protected because of the National Living Wage and those
:44:51. > :45:00.people on the lowest income tax were protected because we are protecting
:45:01. > :45:06.the basic award of the basic Child Tax Credit of ?2,780. I'll send him
:45:07. > :45:11.a alert if I've got hit wrong, there were too many personal and medical
:45:12. > :45:13.details for it to be published. That's an important consideration in
:45:14. > :45:16.deciding whether to publish something.
:45:17. > :45:19.Our Westminster correspondent David Porter was watching,
:45:20. > :45:28.he's outside Parliament with a group of MPs.
:45:29. > :45:36.Thank you. We have been very diplomatic and democratic about
:45:37. > :45:42.this. We have Lord George house the Labour, Lord Purvis for the Liberal
:45:43. > :45:46.Democrats, Owen Thompson for the SNP and a new guest Alberto Costa for
:45:47. > :45:58.the Conservatives. Thank you for joining us. Lord Fultz, -- folks, is
:45:59. > :46:03.it true that an unelected body can overturn the will of an elected
:46:04. > :46:07.body? We said this was not a finance bill, it was not included in the
:46:08. > :46:12.Tory manifesto, indeed, the Prime Minister said he would not introduce
:46:13. > :46:17.such a cut on tax credits, and so we had every right to say to the
:46:18. > :46:21.elected house, Inc again about that. That is all we asked them to do.
:46:22. > :46:26.When I saw multimillionaires like Heseltine and Andrew Lloyd Webber
:46:27. > :46:31.walking through the lobby to cut the tax credits for the poorest I knew
:46:32. > :46:34.we had done the right thing. Jeremy Purvis, you end your party have
:46:35. > :46:39.wanted a reform of the House of Lords for some time, it served your
:46:40. > :46:43.purpose quite well this week? We operate under the system we have. If
:46:44. > :46:47.the Conservative government want to perpetuate the system, we will make
:46:48. > :46:52.sure our voice and our votes count and they did on Monday. It was
:46:53. > :46:56.actually our motion and I would have loved it if George had voted for
:46:57. > :47:01.it, but our motion killed the amendments. I can give this
:47:02. > :47:04.guarantee, as long as the House of Lords carries on its current
:47:05. > :47:08.position, there will be liberal voices in it and we will make sure
:47:09. > :47:12.our votes count for the poorest in this country and we will reverse any
:47:13. > :47:17.opportunity to penalised the hard-working and lowest paid people
:47:18. > :47:20.in the UK. It is almost a similar question, you don't believe in the
:47:21. > :47:24.House of Lords, you don't have any representatives visited House of
:47:25. > :47:28.Lords but it has served your purpose quite well well with this unelected
:47:29. > :47:32.body? I think it is unfortunate we have got this situation where was
:47:33. > :47:37.the unelected house who have come to the rescue, if you like, for those
:47:38. > :47:44.who will be hit hardest. It is deeply disappointing that a number
:47:45. > :47:49.of people did not kill this dead but it is a situation we have to listen
:47:50. > :47:54.to and move forward. A commitment was made during the campaign not to
:47:55. > :47:57.cut tax credits and now we see the government putting through a rash
:47:58. > :48:00.measure. If they really wanted to do this they would have put it through
:48:01. > :48:06.a finance bill which would not have led to the situation we have got
:48:07. > :48:09.now. Is it the case that perhaps your party, your Chancellor was
:48:10. > :48:15.trying to be a bit too clever by doing it through the way he did
:48:16. > :48:18.rather than putting it through a finance bill? The Chancellor was in
:48:19. > :48:23.listening mode before Wednesday's vote and I agree with George that
:48:24. > :48:27.the House of Lords is a revising chamber but sadly George and Jeremy
:48:28. > :48:31.and their colleagues acted as an opposition chamber, an unelected
:48:32. > :48:35.opposition chamber on Monday, and frankly, that is a breach of the
:48:36. > :48:38.British constitution. I think it is right that the Prime Minister and
:48:39. > :48:46.the Chancellor announced a review to look again at how we want an
:48:47. > :48:48.unelected chamber to act in the British constitution. That leads us
:48:49. > :48:52.very neatly onto what should Lord Strathclyde do? Alberto first and
:48:53. > :49:01.then I will get everyone else's views. Lord Strathclyde is a former
:49:02. > :49:03.Leader of the House of Lords. He is a very experienced politician. I
:49:04. > :49:07.read confident as a Conservative peer, he and his panel of experts
:49:08. > :49:10.will produce a report which will be laid before Parliament with
:49:11. > :49:18.proposals to reform the House of Lords in such a way that ensures we
:49:19. > :49:21.don't have this offensive breach of British constitutional values. Let's
:49:22. > :49:24.be very clear. It is the House of Commons, added his Owen and I as an
:49:25. > :49:26.active members of the House of Commons that have the say on
:49:27. > :49:31.financial matters. It is quite disgraceful that a 100-year-old
:49:32. > :49:35.convention was so flagrantly breached on Monday by the elected
:49:36. > :49:41.peers. Owen Thompson, you are relatively new to the House of
:49:42. > :49:44.Commons but presumably as an elected parliamentarian you feel you have to
:49:45. > :49:48.have primacy over the House of Lords so you welcome what the government
:49:49. > :49:53.is doing? Make no bones that I think the ultimate ambition should be that
:49:54. > :49:56.we see an abolition of the House of Lords and an elected second chamber
:49:57. > :50:02.would be a far better option. You only need to look at a panel here
:50:03. > :50:08.today. Iron the only panel who was elected in the general election of
:50:09. > :50:12.Scotland. You can see the attack which is being made members of the
:50:13. > :50:14.UK Parliament to happen to come and represent the Scottish
:50:15. > :50:19.constituencies to see the approach of this Scottish government. I am
:50:20. > :50:25.looking at the review with a bit of a pinch of salt because I'm not
:50:26. > :50:30.convinced there will be any way of the governor securing the decisions
:50:31. > :50:34.they want. What I find offensive is for the Conservative leader in
:50:35. > :50:40.Scotland who somehow welcomed the vote on Monday as some form of cover
:50:41. > :50:45.for sending her MSP colleague, who is the former leader of Scotland, to
:50:46. > :50:54.vote to support the tax cuts. What is offensive... An elected peers...
:50:55. > :51:06.Ruth Davidson appeared to think that was OK. People in Scotland voted to
:51:07. > :51:10.stay in Britain. One at a time. You can't say it is an abuse of the
:51:11. > :51:15.constitution of your own party in Scotland is saying it is acceptable.
:51:16. > :51:19.The Strathclyde report cannot be an ad hoc sticking plaster on an
:51:20. > :51:26.issue. There needs to be a wider view and a constitutional convention
:51:27. > :51:28.is needed. Lord Foulkes is there a danger the House of Lords may have
:51:29. > :51:33.spoken, the elected government of the day doesn't like it and actually
:51:34. > :51:36.they come down on you like a tonne of bricks? Can I say to Alberto if
:51:37. > :51:40.we had voted for the Liberal motion it might have been a constitutional
:51:41. > :51:44.crisis, but all we ask you to do is think again and the government are
:51:45. > :51:49.doing that so we have succeeded. As far as reform of the Lords is
:51:50. > :51:53.concerned, isn't it outrageous that the Prime Minister has asked a
:51:54. > :51:57.hereditary peer to carry us suggestions for reform. He has
:51:58. > :52:01.already suggested for reform, the Labour group have put them forward.
:52:02. > :52:06.In the short term and should have retirement age, you must attend you
:52:07. > :52:11.before can vote so we don't have people flying over from America once
:52:12. > :52:14.a year to vote against the poor. And in the longer-term, I agree with
:52:15. > :52:18.Jeremy. We need a constitutional commission to look at ways which we
:52:19. > :52:24.can replace the House of Lords with something like a Senate of the
:52:25. > :52:29.nations and regions. If we'd had a Labour government now, we would be
:52:30. > :52:37.legislating for a Senate of the nations and regions. Because the SNP
:52:38. > :52:42.is helped the Tories back into power we have got a government. We are
:52:43. > :52:45.where we are. There will be changes to the cuts to tax credits, what
:52:46. > :52:49.should a Chancellor who has got to balance the books and get rid of the
:52:50. > :52:53.deficit do? Patricia Hollis made it clear. There are other ways he could
:52:54. > :52:58.deal with it. You could stop cutting inheritance tax for the richest, he
:52:59. > :53:02.could reinstate the 50p tax rate for the richest. There are lots of ways
:53:03. > :53:06.he could do it. You could ask those who can afford to pay tax to pay the
:53:07. > :53:10.more and not club but the working poor and it is workers, remember,
:53:11. > :53:18.who are being clobbered by the tax credit cuts. We had a general
:53:19. > :53:20.election and the British electorate resoundingly returned a Conservative
:53:21. > :53:23.government. We want a long-term economic plan which works and that
:53:24. > :53:28.is exactly what the Chancellor has been delivering. Credit must be
:53:29. > :53:33.given to the Liberal Democrats on this one as well during their five
:53:34. > :53:36.years in coalition, but we are completing that plan. That is what
:53:37. > :53:40.the British electorate have asked and that is what we are going to do.
:53:41. > :53:44.The Chancellor has said he has got to balance the books, he has to get
:53:45. > :53:53.rid of the deficit, it is never going to be easy. If he has got to
:53:54. > :54:01.cut tax credits, what should he cut? The Conservative Party had the worst
:54:02. > :54:05.election defeat for generations in Scotland. You cannot talk about a
:54:06. > :54:10.resounding success for the Conservative Party in Scotland where
:54:11. > :54:16.the people wanted a different agenda. We do need to look at it. We
:54:17. > :54:19.need to see what we can do. Nicola Sturgeon put forward a platform to
:54:20. > :54:22.an alternative to the pace of change which would have reduced how fast
:54:23. > :54:27.the deficit would have been reduced, but also to increase the
:54:28. > :54:31.spending available. As a first example, there is no need for us to
:54:32. > :54:36.but this money into Trident and abortion be Lords would save us a
:54:37. > :54:40.bit as well. The final question to Jeremy Purvis, you must be thankful
:54:41. > :54:44.at times you are not part of the coalition because you can now vote
:54:45. > :54:47.the way you wanted, but if the Liberal Democrats had been in
:54:48. > :54:52.coalition, you may have been speaking to me to sell these
:54:53. > :54:56.policies. We were in coalition in the last five years and we blocked
:54:57. > :54:59.this very moved. They should be no surprise that when they were in
:55:00. > :55:03.coalition with blocked it internally and there's a prize on Monday that
:55:04. > :55:07.we voted against it. It is the wrong way to balance the books on the back
:55:08. > :55:12.of the poor. There should be more contributions from those wealthiest
:55:13. > :55:15.to pay down the deficit. Thank you all very much for a lively
:55:16. > :55:20.discussion on a topic somehow I think we will hear an awful lot more
:55:21. > :55:28.about. Gordon, back to you. Thank you, you will have to continue
:55:29. > :55:29.at the pub. I imagine Lord Foulkes might be able to get you into one
:55:30. > :55:43.for lords only. You never know! How angry do think George Osborne
:55:44. > :55:46.and David Cameron really are or will they say to Lord Strathclyde will
:55:47. > :55:51.you go and look at this for a very, very long time indeed and hopefully
:55:52. > :55:56.they will have forgotten about it by the time they report? I imagine they
:55:57. > :56:01.are very angry at the moment. The point that Owen Thompson made was
:56:02. > :56:04.well made. This was a problematic policy. It was not part of the
:56:05. > :56:08.Conservative manifesto, regardless of what was being said there, and it
:56:09. > :56:12.really should have been considered repeatedly before it got to the
:56:13. > :56:15.stage where now we have this big constitutional question about
:56:16. > :56:19.whether not what the Lords did was right or not on Monday night. There
:56:20. > :56:24.is an issue, if you are David Cameron and George Osborne to be
:56:25. > :56:28.annoyed about, because they could say OK, we didn't have it in our
:56:29. > :56:34.manifesto, we did say we would cut welfare, but it is one thing to say
:56:35. > :56:38.we did not do something in our manifesto, but it is another thing
:56:39. > :56:42.to say because it wasn't in our manifesto, you lot have the right to
:56:43. > :56:47.use and an elected chamber to overturn something that was
:56:48. > :56:57.repeatedly passed by the elected chamber. The two things wasn't in
:56:58. > :57:01.the manifesto and an overriding democratically elected parliament
:57:02. > :57:05.and not comparator will? What George Osborne did was to use a statutory
:57:06. > :57:08.instrument to push it through. If he had used a bigger finance bill it
:57:09. > :57:12.would have been open to much more debate and the Lords would not have
:57:13. > :57:15.been able to do what they did on Monday night. I think there was some
:57:16. > :57:18.new friends through the constitution in order to get their own way. This
:57:19. > :57:22.rapid review which has been announced which we have been talking
:57:23. > :57:26.about through Lord Strathclyde, this also gives me some concern, given
:57:27. > :57:34.the changes we have seen to the constitution recently, it seems like
:57:35. > :57:38.we are approaching this in a very ad hoc way. The British constitution is
:57:39. > :57:44.already buys and time ad hoc underwritten beast and to try and
:57:45. > :57:48.think it in this way will presumably invoke the law of unintended
:57:49. > :57:54.consequences. Hardly any time, just tell us something you are writing
:57:55. > :58:01.about, it looks like Scotland is not as madly Europhile as we thought? In
:58:02. > :58:06.2014 survey found Scotland were not as Europhile as England. This does
:58:07. > :58:09.not mean that because we don't feel as European as our counterparts
:58:10. > :58:14.north of the border, it does not this is verily mean we are more keen
:58:15. > :58:22.to leave the EU that they are. If the rest of the UK votes to leave
:58:23. > :58:26.and we vote to stay in that will mean an independence referendum?
:58:27. > :58:31.Just because you feel more European it does not mean you feel more EU
:58:32. > :58:35.and if you feel less European it does not mean you are less likely to
:58:36. > :58:43.want to leave the EU so it does not mean Nicola Sturgeon's trigger quite
:58:44. > :58:47.macro but you do not necessarily feel more one-way than the other?
:58:48. > :58:49.That's all we've got time for this week.
:58:50. > :58:53.We're back at the same time next week.