:00:18. > :00:21.Good afternoon and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:21. > :00:25.On today's programme we'll be looking at the latest ideas to
:00:25. > :00:27.streamline public services in tough economic times.
:00:27. > :00:31.And confirmation today that there'll be no fees for Scottish
:00:31. > :00:33.students before or after graduation. But the Education Secretary, Mike
:00:33. > :00:40.Russell, will tell Holyrood there'll be bigger fees for other
:00:40. > :00:43.UK students coming north to study. We'll hear the announcement live.
:00:43. > :00:48.But, first, the Christie Commission, who have said today that public
:00:49. > :00:51.bodies in Scotland need to work together and eliminate waste. The
:00:51. > :00:54.Commission's report for the Scottish Government says that there
:00:54. > :00:56.must be change, otherwise rising demand will "overwhelm" the system.
:00:56. > :01:00.The Commission says the focus should be on earlier prevention of
:01:00. > :01:03.problems to avoid huge costs further down the line. Commission
:01:03. > :01:06.chairman Campbell Christie, once the General Secretary of the STUC,
:01:06. > :01:15.was asked whether Scotland could afford to make the switch to
:01:15. > :01:18.problem prevention. We can't afford not to. For by
:01:18. > :01:22.following through all the recommendations of the report we
:01:22. > :01:30.will be was ceasing - - releasing resources by avoiding duplication.
:01:30. > :01:34.If we can get services working together then we can make savings
:01:34. > :01:38.and that can go into providing prevention. We need to do it
:01:38. > :01:43.because if we don't the demand in public services will be an
:01:43. > :01:48.increasing number of elderly, and we are not so addressing problems
:01:48. > :01:51.that we know we exist with young people. It has to be done. With us
:01:51. > :01:59.today in the studio is the commentator Alf Young, former
:01:59. > :02:04.assistant editor of the Herald newspaper. What do you make of the
:02:04. > :02:10.Christie commission's report? Can you explain about early
:02:10. > :02:13.intervention? There is a number in there that is interesting. 40 % of
:02:13. > :02:17.all the money spent in the public sector at the moment is spent on
:02:17. > :02:21.trying to resolve problems that have arisen because of not
:02:22. > :02:29.intervening early, whether it is in early years education or early
:02:29. > :02:34.stages of illness and so on. There is a kind of magic possibility out
:02:34. > :02:37.there that if you can do the preventative stuff quickly and
:02:37. > :02:44.effectively, then you don't have to spend all the money later on
:02:44. > :02:48.sorting out the problems that arise. The problem is, the think the way
:02:48. > :02:52.to do it is to get all the big services like the health service
:02:52. > :02:59.and local authorities to collaborate and work together.
:02:59. > :03:05.Getting them to do that, the rhetoric has gripped - - is of
:03:05. > :03:14.great, but getting big public bodies to work closely together is
:03:14. > :03:19.incredibly difficult. So some quite high ideals, in a way, but there
:03:19. > :03:25.have been criticisms that it is quite a Willie report. There is a
:03:25. > :03:32.good analysis there. There are big issues in terms of democratic
:03:32. > :03:42.change hands in services. Also the fact that the money will not be
:03:42. > :03:44.
:03:44. > :03:49.there. The Budget will not recover across the public sector until 2026.
:03:49. > :03:56.The EC agenda has always been for politicians to change organisations,
:03:56. > :04:05.to reorganise local government or integrated this or that - - easy
:04:05. > :04:09.agenda. It is easy, but costly. It is much harder to get the
:04:09. > :04:14.integration of activity where people worked intimately together
:04:14. > :04:24.and see themselves as being part of the same delivery with the focus on
:04:24. > :04:28.
:04:28. > :04:33.the customer, on the public. So that it would be a service when you
:04:33. > :04:39.are dealing with the private sector you get what you want, businesses
:04:39. > :04:44.have to serve your needs. In the public sector it is the same. But
:04:44. > :04:50.that is hard to deliver. We are going to hear Mike Russell speak
:04:50. > :04:54.soon. What will he set out? He is looking at the big changes that are
:04:54. > :04:59.coming in England in university education and the impact on that
:04:59. > :05:03.appear. If more and more students want to come here because it is a
:05:03. > :05:06.cheaper option, then the Scottish system has got to deal with that
:05:06. > :05:11.because the gap between what they are prepared to do in terms of not
:05:11. > :05:16.charging fees against what is happening in the South is a
:05:16. > :05:18.headache for him. Let's go over to the main debating
:05:18. > :05:28.chamber at Holyrood and listen to the statement by the Education
:05:28. > :05:35.
:05:35. > :05:39.Secretary, Mike Russell. He is just about to get up on his feet.
:05:39. > :05:43.Today and return to the chamber to set out the next steps, steps that
:05:43. > :05:48.will be taken in the context of a wider ambition on education in
:05:48. > :05:51.Scotland. My vision is of a sector of the plays an important role
:05:51. > :05:55.delivering improved life chances for young people that provides the
:05:55. > :06:01.best outcomes for learners, they take that world class research base
:06:01. > :06:04.of the even greater success and makes them as well possible
:06:04. > :06:09.contribution to getting greater economic growth for Scotland.
:06:09. > :06:14.Scottish universities are highly regarded and will play as a central
:06:14. > :06:17.role in our vision for Scotland. We want to protect and enhance the
:06:17. > :06:22.competitiveness while ensuring that they provide opportunities for all.
:06:22. > :06:25.Before the election I was clear that the debate on higher education
:06:25. > :06:35.were sometimes too narrowly focused on the issue of fees. The green
:06:35. > :06:40.paper opened up a more fundamental discussion. We will not follow
:06:40. > :06:45.England by pitting unmanageable debt burden on our graduates. The
:06:45. > :06:49.average Scottish graduate currently has less than have their debts,
:06:49. > :06:55.almost �11,000 less, than their English counterparts. With the new
:06:55. > :07:01.arrangements in England graduates could walk out with an average of
:07:01. > :07:07.�30,000 debt. We do not think tuition fees are the right solution
:07:07. > :07:12.for us. As Ken Mackintosh said, the Conservatives are side we have
:07:12. > :07:17.solidarity on this issue. This is no longer a live issue for us.
:07:17. > :07:23.Higher education is based in this country on the ability to learn,
:07:23. > :07:29.not the ability to pay. Our first step must be to address the
:07:29. > :07:37.financial challenges ahead, the challenges created by decisions in
:07:37. > :07:42.England. I have been clear onto issues, we will not charge fees for
:07:42. > :07:45.Scottish students and we will fund the sector so it can retain its
:07:45. > :07:48.competitive position. Alastair Sim from the University of Scotland
:07:48. > :07:53.said that that the situation and England will not be clear until
:07:53. > :07:56.next month. Moreover, universities UK said it will not be fully clear
:07:56. > :08:01.until students start to take their places in university next year. It
:08:01. > :08:04.is possible that yesterday's lunch of the UK white paper may have only
:08:04. > :08:09.added to that uncertainty. But I intend to use the best information
:08:09. > :08:11.we have available over the summer recess to work with the sector
:08:11. > :08:16.through the Spending Review to start to put the funding solution
:08:16. > :08:26.for them into place now. Today am announcing what response will be to
:08:26. > :08:26.
:08:26. > :08:29.hire fees in England and Wales - - higher fees. Scollan welcome
:08:29. > :08:34.students from all over the world and we want them to continue to
:08:34. > :08:39.come here because of the quality of what we offer. But we must be the
:08:39. > :08:44.best option, not the cheapest and we need to move quickly. Or
:08:44. > :08:49.universities are starting to plan recruitment campaigns for 2012 and
:08:49. > :08:53.13. We must provide clarity for potential students from the rest of
:08:53. > :08:56.the UK who want to make the choice to study in Scotland. I am
:08:56. > :09:03.launching a consultation on proposals for secondary legislation
:09:03. > :09:08.to allow Scottish universities to set their own fees from students
:09:08. > :09:16.from the rest of the UK. A plant in Trig - - and introduce primary
:09:16. > :09:21.legislation which will restrict to �9,000 per Adam - - per annum that
:09:21. > :09:25.they can charge to students not from Scotland. This means that we
:09:25. > :09:29.can expect to see a range of potential fees for other UK
:09:29. > :09:33.students from �1,800 to �9,000 giving institutions flexibilities
:09:33. > :09:41.to target their recruitment. I would expect the average fee has
:09:41. > :09:46.gone to be law than an England, possibly about the �6,375 figures.
:09:46. > :09:51.We have no option but to act. If we did nothing students from England
:09:51. > :09:56.in particular with pages of rate in hundred pounds a year to attend a
:09:56. > :10:00.Scottish university, compared to five times the total in their home
:10:00. > :10:07.nation. Action is essential to make sure that Scottish students are not
:10:07. > :10:10.squeezed out by students from elsewhere. Our universities will
:10:10. > :10:14.still be able to offer Scott are students the same number of places
:10:14. > :10:20.next year as they did this year. In fact in time and they allow them to
:10:20. > :10:29.offer more places I will ensure also that the additional revenue is
:10:29. > :10:32.distributed fairly. We will work with the groups to ensure that the
:10:32. > :10:37.additional income generated helps the whole of the sector. The
:10:37. > :10:42.consultation process will run from today until the 2nd September with
:10:42. > :10:45.the relevant secondary legislation to be laid later that month. As
:10:45. > :10:48.well as implementing these new arrangements we will continue to
:10:48. > :10:52.explore the feasibility within the boundaries of European law of a
:10:52. > :11:00.management fee for a European Union students. This is a complex area
:11:00. > :11:05.and we need to take her time to explore what might be possible. I
:11:05. > :11:10.hope to be able to say more about this later in the year. My
:11:10. > :11:13.aspirations for the sector are wider than just financial. They
:11:13. > :11:20.must have mordant and transparent governance arrangements in our
:11:20. > :11:30.universities as a prerequisite. These plans will be shaped by the
:11:30. > :11:31.
:11:31. > :11:34.amounts were they made two years ago. The review will look into
:11:34. > :11:41.whether or not there is the appropriate level of autonomy and
:11:41. > :11:46.transparency. I am publishing the remit of the review today alongside
:11:46. > :11:52.a call for evidence. I expect to have recommendations by the end of
:11:52. > :11:56.this year and to legislate next year. We must go further than that.
:11:56. > :11:59.In September it will bring forward more detailed proposals in the pre-
:11:59. > :12:04.legislative paper covering not just universities but also colleges,
:12:04. > :12:08.skills and training. This will be followed by a period of public
:12:08. > :12:12.debate before legislation covering the reform of all those areas has
:12:12. > :12:16.introduced to the parliament some time in 2012. Meeting the needs of
:12:16. > :12:19.the learner will be at the heart of those proposals. Scotland's ability
:12:19. > :12:22.to flourish is dependent on its people and I'm committed to
:12:22. > :12:26.ensuring all of our people have the opportunities they need to improve
:12:26. > :12:30.their life chances, their attainment and employability. There
:12:30. > :12:40.will be tough choices and we need to be much clearer about the
:12:40. > :12:40.
:12:40. > :12:43.provision on offer. He broadly speaking, my proposals for reform
:12:43. > :12:47.will include more efficient and flexible learner progression with
:12:47. > :12:51.more students capable of moving from school to college to
:12:51. > :12:57.university into jobs. In standardisation of learning
:12:57. > :13:03.provision. Creating structural change across the entire post 16
:13:03. > :13:08.education landscape so it is more efficient. Guaranteeing wider
:13:08. > :13:14.access including Loring so she'll economic barriers. Maintaining
:13:14. > :13:16.Scotland's World bidding position in university led research.
:13:16. > :13:20.Developing student support arrangements that are fair and
:13:20. > :13:26.affordable. Enjoying governance in universities has greater
:13:26. > :13:30.accountability for public funding. And simplifying the funding
:13:30. > :13:34.structures and flows for both higher and further education. I am
:13:34. > :13:38.pleased to deny to the parliament today that a plan to hold a review
:13:38. > :13:42.of the Government's other - - governance of a further education
:13:42. > :13:46.colleges. This will examine the quality and potential future
:13:46. > :13:55.contribution they can be made by enhanced governance structures for
:13:55. > :14:05.our colleges. The review will be led by Professor Russell great - -
:14:05. > :14:07.
:14:07. > :14:11.Russel Griggs. I believe that the Government's instructor of colleges
:14:11. > :14:15.should a strong regard to democratic accountability. There
:14:15. > :14:19.must be world class leadership and scrutiny in order to support the
:14:19. > :14:24.economic and social role of colleges and what will be a very
:14:24. > :14:29.highly challenging future climate. I'll be asking Professor Griggs to
:14:30. > :14:34.give us recommendations. I'll be asking him to consider what
:14:34. > :14:37.improvements can be made to the democratic accountability of our
:14:37. > :14:41.colleges. What we teach and what we learn has played an important part
:14:41. > :14:46.in developing Scotland's people, economy and society. Education
:14:46. > :14:50.plays a central role in improving life chances, learning in all its
:14:50. > :14:54.forms has a wide reach. At one end of the spectrum it helps those
:14:54. > :15:03.furthest from the labour market to employments, the other gives high-
:15:03. > :15:06.level skills and work - - world leading research. These proposals
:15:06. > :15:11.for reform are ambitious and represent them a significant change
:15:11. > :15:14.since devolution and I believe they will transform for the better the
:15:14. > :15:22.education and training landscape, enhancing the life chances of all
:15:22. > :15:26.Scottish people. The first Earl of Birkenhead was Rector of Aberdeen
:15:26. > :15:33.University and in his address he said Scotland is renowned as the
:15:33. > :15:36.home of the most ambitious race in the worlds. A great compliment. I
:15:36. > :15:42.am ambitious for the people of Scotland and our proposals will
:15:42. > :15:51.ensure that those great ambitions are realised. Education makes
:15:51. > :15:55.The Cabinet secretary will take questions on the issues raced in
:15:55. > :16:01.the statement, I intend to allow round 20 minutes for questions,
:16:01. > :16:05.after which we will move on to next item of business. For those members
:16:05. > :16:12.who wish to ask the Cabinet secretary a question, could you
:16:12. > :16:18.please press your request to speak button now. Can I thank the minute
:16:18. > :16:20.For an advance copy of his statement. Can I broadly welcome
:16:20. > :16:25.the further information he has provided on the review of higher
:16:25. > :16:28.education and the announcement of a review into further education.
:16:28. > :16:32.Labour agree that we wish to see an improvement in accountability in
:16:32. > :16:36.these areas an we look forward to discussing proposals at a later
:16:36. > :16:40.stage. I am slightly taken aback by some of the ministers comment tons
:16:40. > :16:44.issue of fee charges forest of UK students. Which seem to beg more
:16:44. > :16:50.questions than answers. The minister has set the fee cap at
:16:50. > :16:55.�9,000 a year, but can I ask to clarify whether this applies over
:16:55. > :16:58.three years, or over the typical Scottish four year course. Does the
:16:58. > :17:03.Cabinet secretary accept that if it is open to principles, to set a
:17:03. > :17:07.four year charge of �9 thousand a year, the Cabinet secretary is in
:17:07. > :17:10.the ludicrous position of setting higher fierce Scotland than in
:17:10. > :17:15.England. Can I ask the Cabinet secretary will any university
:17:15. > :17:20.introducing the fees have to meet the criteria set by the Office of
:17:20. > :17:26.Fair Access, or are there no widening access obligations
:17:26. > :17:31.attached? On the principles behind his thinking here can I ask the him
:17:31. > :17:35.to clarify whether he see the primary purpose to deter fee
:17:35. > :17:39.refugees or as an income generator? If it is the former, does he plan
:17:39. > :17:43.to set a limit on the number of places available to rest of UK
:17:43. > :17:47.students? The minister began his statement by ruling out a market
:17:47. > :17:50.for higher education for Scottish students, but by allowing course by
:17:50. > :17:54.course and institution by institution flexibility over rest
:17:54. > :17:58.of UK fees, does the minister think it accept to believe create a
:17:58. > :18:02.market for English students? There are widespread fears some
:18:02. > :18:06.institutions tailor their courses according to available funding
:18:06. > :18:10.streams, for example research grants or the number of post grad
:18:10. > :18:13.students. How does he intend to prevent these same institutions for
:18:13. > :18:17.offering courses to fee payers from the rest of the UK which displace
:18:17. > :18:21.the courses that might be available to Scottish students? Finally, on
:18:21. > :18:25.the issue of charging EU students the statement is noticeable for the
:18:25. > :18:31.lack of any detail of how the Scottish Government will proceed,
:18:31. > :18:37.can he at least assure Parliament the plan he has come up with is
:18:37. > :18:43.lawful, as well as feasible within the boundarys of the European Union.
:18:43. > :18:46.If I can deal with that first. I made my statement, it is clear, to
:18:47. > :18:50.use the word within the boun cis of European law we will do our best to
:18:50. > :18:53.make progress on this. It is certainly lawful within Ireland
:18:53. > :18:57.writ occupy, where it operate, and I would have thought what was
:18:57. > :19:02.lawful in Ireland might be lawful here too. I am disappointed in his
:19:02. > :19:06.litany of questions, for vary the o of reason, first I hope he would
:19:06. > :19:10.join with me to say the best solution would be independence for
:19:10. > :19:14.Scotland, because in those circumstances we would be able to
:19:14. > :19:18.treat everybody ebg quit bli. We would have our own money raced and
:19:18. > :19:21.we could choose how to spend it. But we are not in that pofplgs he
:19:21. > :19:26.might reflect that the difficulty that have been created by decision
:19:26. > :19:28.sourt of -- south of the border we were set in train bay Labour
:19:28. > :19:31.Government which commissioned the Brown review and supported the
:19:31. > :19:35.outcomes of it. In those circumstances I think if there are
:19:35. > :19:40.problems, many of them lie at the door of the Labour Party. Well let
:19:40. > :19:45.us dip out of that and go straight to our Aberdeen studio where the
:19:45. > :19:48.new national President of the NUS in Scotland is there for us. Robin
:19:48. > :19:52.Parkerment you have been listening to that statement. What is your
:19:52. > :19:57.reaction to it? Yes, good afternoon. Well I think students are going to
:19:57. > :20:01.find the statement here a mixed bag. There is positives in there, but I
:20:01. > :20:04.am sure the new stories that is going to dominate the news pages
:20:04. > :20:10.and the broadcast this afternoon is about the charges for the rest of
:20:10. > :20:14.the UK students. I certainly share conis -- concerns this doesn't seem
:20:14. > :20:18.to be fully worked out. I think it is really port this debate remains
:20:18. > :20:21.round how we stop an influx of students for the rest of the UK
:20:21. > :20:25.coming into Scotland and how which protect access for students from
:20:25. > :20:29.Scotland. And we are far from convinced that the only way do that
:20:29. > :20:33.is to increase fees, and we need, we urgently need clarity round
:20:33. > :20:37.whether the plan is to make degrees in Scotland the most expensive
:20:37. > :20:42.degrees in the whole of the UK for students from the rest of the UK to
:20:42. > :20:48.come in and take. Were you surprised at the level of cap there,
:20:48. > :20:53.the 9,000 maximum fee, and of course, on a Scottish four year
:20:53. > :20:55.honours course, �36 thousand. are very concerned this could
:20:55. > :20:59.create the most expensive glees the whole of the UK at �36 thousand,
:20:59. > :21:04.that is, a huge amount of debt for students to be leaving university
:21:04. > :21:08.with, before we even get into the living costs that many student face
:21:08. > :21:12.here in Scotland. So �36 thousand is a huge amount to be paying for a
:21:12. > :21:16.degree, and we need to think through what this is going to mean
:21:16. > :21:20.in terms of access for students from the rest of UK. We are worried
:21:20. > :21:23.about, there is definitely an element of hypocrisy, in some
:21:23. > :21:26.students will be priced out of being able to afford come study in
:21:26. > :21:33.Scotland, through the creation of this market place in education for
:21:33. > :21:37.students from the rest of the UK. But do you not think the SNP
:21:37. > :21:42.Government have created the conditions, we do have to depend on
:21:42. > :21:46.other students coming in to help pay for that? I think it is really
:21:46. > :21:51.important that the debate remains round how we protect access and how
:21:51. > :21:55.we make sure that places are available. And it simply doesn't
:21:55. > :21:58.turn into a debate about how we can make certain groups of students
:21:58. > :22:02.into some form of cash cow or something like that. So I think it
:22:02. > :22:08.is important we stick to, we frame this debate round how we protect
:22:08. > :22:12.access, and maintain places. Now, there was some, a very short bit in
:22:12. > :22:18.the EU, the management fee. How do you think the Scottish Government
:22:18. > :22:24.can get round that? I, I am still far from convinced there is a way
:22:24. > :22:28.to work round the EU law on this. We will have to see how that
:22:28. > :22:31.progresses, but I think the comparison that Mike Russell made
:22:31. > :22:35.to the situation in Ireland is different once you start looking
:22:35. > :22:38.into the detail of it. I just don't think there is a way we will find a
:22:38. > :22:43.situation where you can have one system for Scottish students, and
:22:43. > :22:49.one for students from the rest of the EU. So we will have to wait to
:22:49. > :22:53.see how that plays out really. And wait for more detail really.
:22:53. > :22:56.thank you very much for joining us. Now, more than a third of public
:22:56. > :23:00.money in Scotland is spent on social problem, which could have
:23:00. > :23:04.been prevented in the first place, a new report has warned. The
:23:04. > :23:08.Christie Commission has warned services will buckle without more
:23:08. > :23:12.preventative measures to tackle inequality. Campbell Christie, the
:23:12. > :23:16.report's chairman joins me now. Thank you for joining me. Can you
:23:16. > :23:20.explain your main recommendations in your report? Well, I think it is
:23:20. > :23:25.important to set the scene first, and that is we were asked by the
:23:25. > :23:29.Government, to look at how public sever -- services are delivered in
:23:30. > :23:36.the medium to long-term, taking into account the fact that the
:23:36. > :23:40.fiscal position that we have, the demography increased demand there
:23:40. > :23:45.will be on public services and people live longer and require more
:23:45. > :23:50.support from public service and we were asked to look at that, and,
:23:50. > :23:55.and produce some recommendations, and, in relation to how we can
:23:55. > :24:03.maintain the quality of public service in that environment. We
:24:03. > :24:06.identified a number of key area, where we made recommendations, and
:24:06. > :24:12.there is three particular areas, where we think that we can do a lot
:24:12. > :24:19.better than we are doing currently. One is that it is clear that a lot
:24:19. > :24:23.of, there is a lot of anger round, and concern round, in Scotland, in
:24:23. > :24:28.communities, that public services are very much topped down they
:24:28. > :24:33.deliver what the top thinks we need, and if that doesn't fit, then it is
:24:33. > :24:38.too bad. So there is strong evidence from all the visits we did.
:24:38. > :24:43.All the people we spoke to, that empowering communities, to identify
:24:43. > :24:48.what it is they need, to work with the agencies as to what it is they
:24:48. > :24:52.need, within their own community, would release resources from
:24:52. > :24:57.provision being needed, in care homes and in emergency areas of
:24:57. > :25:02.hospitals and so on. That was one area we thought that with can
:25:02. > :25:08.improve the quality of public services, and it cost less, to
:25:08. > :25:12.provide. You did say in the report the prize is a personal centred
:25:12. > :25:15.system. We have seen a lot of the coverage of the report and there
:25:15. > :25:19.are accusations the report is very woolly and difficult to, there is
:25:19. > :25:24.nothing really definitive in this report. Well, I don't know who is
:25:24. > :25:29.saying that. It is not the reaction we have got, and I don't think it
:25:29. > :25:36.is the reaction that we have had from the agencies that are involved
:25:36. > :25:40.in public service, but let me finish. The second area, is, we
:25:40. > :25:44.have identified from the evidence that we have gather, that there is
:25:44. > :25:50.real concern about the duplication of the provision of service,
:25:50. > :25:54.different services are working in the same ya -- area, it is not
:25:54. > :25:59.clear whether they will pool budgets in order to get the best
:25:59. > :26:04.returns, so we have strongly said that Government should take action,
:26:04. > :26:08.to require people who are agencies, organisations providing public
:26:08. > :26:12.service, to work together with other public service agencies, so
:26:12. > :26:17.that they can deliver good quality services and avoid duplication and
:26:17. > :26:20.get better results. Has this not been tried in the past? You speak
:26:20. > :26:24.of people being in their silo, that has not been in past to get the
:26:24. > :26:27.public sector working together and it has not happened? Well, what we
:26:27. > :26:32.are saying to Government, they should require it to happen. That
:26:32. > :26:35.if services are going to, whether it is local authority, health
:26:35. > :26:38.boards or whoever, police service whoever, if you going to fund them
:26:38. > :26:42.there should be a requirement that the funding they will work with
:26:42. > :26:46.other agencies in order to provide a unified service and a better
:26:46. > :26:52.quality of service. The third area that he we identified as being
:26:52. > :26:56.important, is to, this need to identify and take action early, to
:26:56. > :27:03.prevent the development of particular problems over the years,
:27:03. > :27:09.now if we can do that, then the figure that has been produced about
:27:09. > :27:18.40% of spend in many public service areas arises from the fact that
:27:18. > :27:22.preventative action wasn't taken. That could be how we ensure that
:27:22. > :27:28.elderly people get the vervis -- service they need in their own home,
:27:28. > :27:32.so avoid the need to go into care, to go into care homes or to go into
:27:32. > :27:35.emergency areas in hospital, which is costly. So that is one area.
:27:35. > :27:40.That is a co-point in your report actually, that Americaning of
:27:40. > :27:43.health and Social Services, and you did make that point. That merging.
:27:43. > :27:47.There was another report from NESTA who made the same recommendation
:27:47. > :27:51.but they were putting forward a very strong recommendation that you
:27:51. > :27:58.should take that money out of acute services, to help fund that, but
:27:58. > :28:02.you have not gone that far. acute care is very important,
:28:02. > :28:07.people, people want to have good quality acute care, but what they
:28:07. > :28:11.don't want is to have it clogged up with people who are bed blocking
:28:11. > :28:14.because they can't get out, back into their own community because
:28:14. > :28:20.they are not in there are not the services in their community to care
:28:20. > :28:25.for them, so it is important that we, we don't allow that sort of
:28:25. > :28:31.thing to happen, so it is those areas, but it is earlier than that,
:28:32. > :28:37.for instance I am involved in Stirling, as chair of the urban
:28:37. > :28:40.regeneration company. We are helping young people who are not
:28:40. > :28:45.attending school, bad attender, we are bringing them into work with us
:28:45. > :28:49.as part of a big lot Iry arrangement, it is amazing the
:28:49. > :28:54.transformation of these young people in a work environment. How
:28:54. > :28:59.they blossom, how they go back home to their own areas feeling
:28:59. > :29:03.absolutely, that they have achieved something. If we do that more, we
:29:03. > :29:06.avoid this problem of those people ending up in prison, ending up with
:29:06. > :29:09.alcohol problem, drug problems or whatever, so you know, now, of
:29:09. > :29:13.course everyone will say, preventative care has been on the
:29:13. > :29:16.agenda for a long time. We now have a situation where we have
:29:16. > :29:26.Government power. We have five years to do it they have a majority,
:29:26. > :29:34.
:29:34. > :29:36.Representatives of the six big power companies have been giving
:29:36. > :29:38.evidence to Holyrood's Economy Committee. Earlier this month,
:29:38. > :29:41.Scottish Power announced steep rises in the costs of gas and
:29:41. > :29:44.electricity and there's widespread concern that other companies will
:29:44. > :29:50.follow suit. MSPs began hearing an account of the scale of fuel
:29:50. > :30:00.poverty in Scotland. What percentage are reckoned to be
:30:00. > :30:03.
:30:03. > :30:13.in fuel poverty? A about a third. Be 34 %. That is using government
:30:13. > :30:16.
:30:16. > :30:22.figures. We have asked someone in the Commission for sustainable
:30:22. > :30:32.energy to estimate if every energy company followed the example of
:30:32. > :30:33.
:30:33. > :30:41.Scottish Power. Basically, it would put a hundred and �75 a year on to
:30:41. > :30:46.the average bill. It would increase fuel poverty from 34 % up to the 37
:30:46. > :30:51.% and take us back to the baseline position that we were in 1999, so
:30:51. > :30:58.all the good work that has begun will be back to square one. Over a
:30:58. > :31:08.five-year period the price for both gas and electricity is the same.
:31:08. > :31:12.Why have the retail cost gone up by so much? I think that it is
:31:12. > :31:17.misleading to take a particular point in time. You can choose
:31:17. > :31:22.different points in time and you will get different relationships
:31:22. > :31:28.because wholesale and retail movements take place at different
:31:28. > :31:37.times, so depending on precisely when you pick you can get a variety
:31:37. > :31:42.of different relationships. As far as Scottish Power is concerned, the
:31:42. > :31:47.accounts but we are filing with the regulator show that after the last
:31:47. > :31:57.two years we have made an average of �10 selling gas and electricity
:31:57. > :32:02.on a typical annual bill of �1,000 for a dual fuel customer.
:32:02. > :32:08.percent is huge in fuel poverty. How much importance to you placing
:32:08. > :32:16.on that? The place enormous importance on it. We spent more
:32:16. > :32:23.relative to our market share than any other supplier. There is a
:32:23. > :32:30.voluntary agreement in existence at the moment. British Gas has spent
:32:30. > :32:36.�227 million on that in the last three years against an obligation
:32:36. > :32:46.of �100 million less. A third of our entire spend for this is going
:32:46. > :32:49.
:32:49. > :32:54.to Scotland and 10 % of all our fund for improving housing stock.
:32:54. > :32:59.As an industry have not done as good a job as we should have done
:32:59. > :33:06.on explaining to her own consumers and the country as a whole the
:33:06. > :33:11.fundamental shifts going on in energy supply. The way this is
:33:11. > :33:16.accelerating a do think that over the next 12 months, the government,
:33:16. > :33:25.consumer bodies, suppliers need to get together and come up with
:33:25. > :33:28.better communications. Tomorrow will see tens of thousands of
:33:28. > :33:31.public service workers go on strike over changes the UK government
:33:31. > :33:34.plans to make to their pensions. While England and Wales are likely
:33:34. > :33:36.to see huge disruption to schools, up to 30,000 Scottish workers in
:33:36. > :33:39.places including jobcentres, tax offices and courts will withdraw
:33:39. > :33:44.their labour. Those workers are in the PCS union, and their Scottish
:33:44. > :33:49.Secretary Lynn Henderson joins me now.
:33:49. > :33:55.Some of the destruction we might see tomorrow, will be the extent do
:33:55. > :34:01.you think? Places like Jobcentres will be closed, tax offices will be
:34:01. > :34:06.closed, coastguard stations will be affected, the Scottish Parliament
:34:06. > :34:13.staff will be out on strike. A number of government offices around
:34:13. > :34:17.the country will Quine to a halt. you're striking over pensions. The
:34:17. > :34:22.Prime Minister said you can stick your head into the sand when it
:34:22. > :34:27.comes to public sector pension reform. He is pointing at the cost
:34:27. > :34:36.every family in the UK at �1,000 to pay for public sector pensions. Do
:34:36. > :34:41.not pick it is time for reform? That is a flawed analysis. Our
:34:41. > :34:46.strike is not just on pensions, it is on pay and jobs because civil
:34:47. > :34:52.servants are also facing do you pay freezes and 100 seats - - hundreds
:34:52. > :34:57.of thousands of job cuts in the next few years. It is more than
:34:57. > :35:01.just the pensions issue. We maintain the civil service pension
:35:01. > :35:06.scheme has been proven to be affordable, sustainable and will
:35:06. > :35:11.reducing cost. It is not necessary to make these changes at all unless
:35:11. > :35:14.it is an idea - - ideological attack, which are days. With the
:35:14. > :35:18.rise in living standards and people living longer, it is clear that the
:35:18. > :35:25.doors need to be reformed because it seems these penchant or simply
:35:26. > :35:30.an affordable. That is not what Lord Hutton says. But is not what
:35:30. > :35:36.the public affairs committee says and not what the Institute of
:35:36. > :35:40.Fiscal Studies says. It is not just me saying that, these are
:35:40. > :35:44.economists out there that agree that the public sector pensions are
:35:44. > :35:54.affordable and be maintained at this as an attack on us for
:35:54. > :36:01.ideological reasons. The think tank says that a demographic time bomb
:36:01. > :36:10.is ticking. We know that as public servants, who worked to protect
:36:10. > :36:20.people in elderly care. We co- operate with government, they are
:36:20. > :36:25.Our employers and we deliver the services. We have an alternative
:36:25. > :36:30.which is called Pax justice. Looking at the destruction that
:36:30. > :36:34.will take place tomorrow. The destruction of the airport will hit
:36:34. > :36:39.Scottish passengers very badly. The general secretary said there could
:36:39. > :36:43.be a risk to border security and passengers would be protected
:36:43. > :36:49.financially at the end up missing their flights. Why are you letting
:36:49. > :36:55.the people down who pay your salaries? The people who pay our
:36:55. > :37:00.salaries that are our members as well. We have the right to withdraw
:37:00. > :37:06.labour and we have agreed to the public support. Yes, there will be
:37:06. > :37:10.disruption at the airports and we say to the public we are terribly
:37:10. > :37:16.sorry about that but you must make sure that the government changes
:37:16. > :37:26.its mind and properly negotiates. Member sub the public could do end
:37:26. > :37:26.
:37:26. > :37:30.up paying your salaries, people who work and a high streets, lots of
:37:30. > :37:34.people in the High Street are having big changes in their pension.
:37:34. > :37:44.People in the private sector are having to bear that burden. People
:37:44. > :37:50.in the private sector are also depending on... the taxpayer is
:37:50. > :37:57.also funding private pensions. We also represent people in the
:37:57. > :38:01.commercial sector, privatised sectors. We stand together with
:38:01. > :38:05.other unions and workers who want to make sure that the workers of
:38:05. > :38:09.the day and attention at of tomorrow are properly looked after.
:38:09. > :38:17.As summer of disruption has been promised by the unions. What will
:38:17. > :38:21.be your next disruption, do you think? We have not promised at
:38:21. > :38:25.summer of destruction. We have got a 24 hour strike starting at
:38:25. > :38:29.midnight tonight and we will follow that up with a month-long ban on
:38:30. > :38:36.overtime. There will then talk to other unions about getting the
:38:36. > :38:40.government back to the table. If that is not the case we have legal
:38:40. > :38:44.cases out against the changes and are prepared to work together to
:38:44. > :38:47.take industrial action in the autumn.
:38:47. > :38:52.The Finance Secretary, John Swinney, is making a statement to MSPs at
:38:52. > :38:58.Holyrood now. It's on what's called the financial out-turn, which means
:38:58. > :39:04.how much the Government spent compared to their budget. Let's
:39:04. > :39:09.cross again live to the Debating Chamber.
:39:09. > :39:13.An underspend on this Budget cannot be used to buy goods and services.
:39:13. > :39:22.It does not reflect the missed opportunity to spend more on public
:39:22. > :39:24.services. The 2010 and 11 out turn white paper is due to be published
:39:24. > :39:30.in July in which the fiscal underspend for the Scottish
:39:30. > :39:35.government will go on record as �12 million, along with the �86 million
:39:35. > :39:39.non-cash understand. I want to take this opportunity to up to its
:39:39. > :39:47.parliament about other under Spence. The Scottish government has been
:39:47. > :39:53.able to carry forward any unspent Budget to future years. Ensure
:39:53. > :39:58.flexibility was abolished as part of the 2010 UK spending review. The
:39:58. > :40:04.Scottish government had drawn down pretty much all of its balances in
:40:04. > :40:11.the year up to the end of 2010 and 11. Its cash balance at this stage
:40:11. > :40:15.stood at only �22 million, in contrast with Northern Ireland at
:40:15. > :40:25.�295 million and the Welsh government at �164 million.
:40:25. > :40:25.
:40:25. > :40:29.Consequently, wily - - the impact on public expenditure in Scotland
:40:29. > :40:36.is relatively small due to the success of our negotiations with
:40:36. > :40:41.the Treasury. The Budget exchange mechanism has been set out by the
:40:41. > :40:44.Treasury. This would allow some scope to transfer budgets to future
:40:44. > :40:48.years and would have to be declared as part of our spring Budget
:40:48. > :40:55.revision process. The detailed technical rules that the Treasury
:40:55. > :40:59.has imposed great a risk that some avoidable underspent - -
:40:59. > :41:03.unavoidable under his friends would not be available in future. Along
:41:03. > :41:08.with my eight finance ministers from Wales and Northern Ireland I
:41:08. > :41:12.am so continuing to discuss with the Treasury to ensure that we have
:41:12. > :41:17.the right to spend the budgets allocated to us in the UK spending
:41:17. > :41:20.review and they are not lost so Scottish public services. This is
:41:20. > :41:25.especially important at that time when the UK government is already
:41:25. > :41:27.reducing the total resources available to us. This issue
:41:27. > :41:31.underlines the problems of the current fiscal arrangements whereby
:41:31. > :41:36.we have to wait for the UK to decide how Scotland should best
:41:36. > :41:41.manage its own Budget and are subject to a Treasury rules and
:41:41. > :41:43.changes to these rules and which we are not consulted. Given this
:41:43. > :41:51.uncertainty about future arrangements am pleased to be able
:41:51. > :41:54.to announce today such a low underspend of �12 million. I
:41:54. > :41:59.commend these outturn figures to the chamber. They demonstrate the
:41:59. > :42:06.firm, - - demonstrate the firm grip that this government has some
:42:06. > :42:11.public finances. We have been faced with ever increasing challenges
:42:11. > :42:15.over public finances. Our response has required competence and a
:42:15. > :42:19.commitment to building effective partnerships across this Parliament
:42:19. > :42:24.and across the public sector in Scotland. We will not alter from
:42:24. > :42:31.this course as a litter the future. The outcome of the UK spending
:42:31. > :42:37.review places severe pressures on future Scottish budgets. But 2014
:42:37. > :42:43.the Scottish at Dell will be 12 % below its 2010 level in real terms.
:42:43. > :42:48.Within that our capital Dell will fall by 35 % over this period. We
:42:48. > :42:52.will continue to make your argued that the UK government has cutting
:42:52. > :42:55.public expenditure too far and too fast. It is against this background
:42:55. > :43:00.we have already published a Budget for this financial year that
:43:00. > :43:05.addresses the cuts imposed upon us, cuts of �1 billion, while delivered
:43:05. > :43:10.on key priorities in the economy, the environment and public services
:43:10. > :43:18.and building parliamentary support for our approach. Alf Young is
:43:18. > :43:24.still with us. What do you make of that so far, Alf? It is 12 million
:43:24. > :43:32.underspent and a Budget of 28 billion. To miss your Budget by 12
:43:32. > :43:36.million out of such a massive number is pretty good going. That
:43:36. > :43:40.argument brewing is that in past years if you did underspend you
:43:40. > :43:44.could roll it over and use it the following year. He is saying with
:43:44. > :43:48.budgets being squeezed going forwards it would be quite nice to
:43:48. > :43:58.take that 12 million and use it going forward but the Treasury has
:43:58. > :43:58.
:43:58. > :44:02.changed the arrangements Anne's the other devolved ministers are trying
:44:02. > :44:05.to say to the Treasury, look this is not in the spirit of things that
:44:06. > :44:10.you are not going to let us have that because we didn't quite manage
:44:10. > :44:14.to spend precisely the amount that we were allocated. It is a fair
:44:15. > :44:20.point because the rules apparently were changed on a unilateral basis
:44:20. > :44:24.with the discussion. Maybe it is part of George Osborne turning the
:44:24. > :44:32.screw. It does not help to lose that 12 million, although it is
:44:32. > :44:38.tiny in relation to the amount So, are you thinking that Mr
:44:38. > :44:43.Swinney has managed to do well in getting it down �12 million? Given
:44:43. > :44:50.how complex a budget leek that is and how many areas it gets spent on
:44:50. > :44:55.to, get it wrong, to underspend it by �12 million out of 28 and a bit
:44:55. > :44:59.billion is pretty good going. you can see more of John Swinney's
:44:59. > :45:08.statement on our website. But first of all back to the story about
:45:08. > :45:12.funding for higher education, in Edinburgh we have Alastair Sim.
:45:12. > :45:18.Good afternoon. Thank you for joining me. First, what was your
:45:18. > :45:21.reaction to Mr Russell's statement there, about the �9 million cap fee
:45:21. > :45:25.four students coming from England? Think he is doing the right thing
:45:25. > :45:30.at the right time. We have been saying urgent action need to be
:45:30. > :45:33.taken so we have a managable cross border flow, so we are able to
:45:34. > :45:37.welcome people from the rest of UK but not to become the cheap option
:45:37. > :45:41.and become swamped. I think he has done the right thing and he has
:45:41. > :45:46.done the timely thing so universities can get on with making
:45:46. > :45:51.fee setting decisions, to give learners certainty to what is going
:45:51. > :45:56.to apply to them. We are not the cheap option, we are probably the
:45:56. > :46:02.expensive option. With the set cap of �9,000 peran nem numb it could
:46:02. > :46:05.mean students from London could be paying �36,000 to study at Glasgow.
:46:05. > :46:09.In fact Scotland could become one of the most expensive places to
:46:09. > :46:14.study on a four year course? have only had this announcement
:46:14. > :46:19.today so we don't know what decision institutions are going to
:46:19. > :46:22.make, those decision will be affected by the fact our
:46:23. > :46:27.universities want to attract good students from across the UK. They
:46:27. > :46:30.will need to be able to settifies that enable them to continue to do
:46:30. > :46:35.so I don't think we will necessarily see the sort of rush to
:46:35. > :46:38.the top that there has been in England, but it does give
:46:38. > :46:42.flexibility. Medical degrees, typically the same length in
:46:42. > :46:46.Scotland as in England. It allows you potentially to set a fee that
:46:46. > :46:50.puts you exactly on par with what is happening in the rest of the UK.
:46:50. > :46:54.Makes it is a fair choice. But as you pointed out, we did see a
:46:54. > :46:59.troush the top in England, why do you think that won't be the case in
:46:59. > :47:05.Scotland? And could it be very obvious then, if we have some
:47:05. > :47:09.universities charging maybe, 3 or 4,000 and some charging 9,000. It
:47:09. > :47:12.gives a variable look at universities in Scotland doesn't it.
:47:12. > :47:16.I don't know what decision they are going to make. We have only had
:47:16. > :47:21.this announcement today, but I think the decisions they make will
:47:21. > :47:25.be conditioned by what has happened down sou. I mean, there is no point
:47:25. > :47:30.in Scottish universities generally setting their fees for students in
:47:30. > :47:33.the rest of the UK, at a level that makes them uncompetitive choice for
:47:33. > :47:39.the able people from all sorts of backgrounds we want to continue to
:47:39. > :47:43.welcome to Scotland. Mr Ruthle was vague about the EU management fee,
:47:43. > :47:47.the fee for students coming from the European Union. How do you
:47:47. > :47:50.think he will get round that legally? That is for him and his
:47:50. > :47:56.legal team to look at. We are supportive of him looking at it. I
:47:56. > :47:59.mean we think it is only fair, that you know, given that students in
:47:59. > :48:04.France, Netherlands, rierbld, wherever, are generally having to
:48:04. > :48:07.make a contribution to the costs of their own -- university education.
:48:07. > :48:11.We think it is fair enough they should be able to make some
:48:11. > :48:15.contribution to the cost of the university education in Scotland.
:48:15. > :48:19.So, we are fully supportive of the Scottish Government looking at this,
:48:19. > :48:24.but it really is going to take them, I think at Mike Russell indicated
:48:24. > :48:30.some effort with their lawyers to find way doffing this, that is
:48:30. > :48:35.going to be robust. Finally, Mr Russell was saying he was going to
:48:35. > :48:39.look at university governance, there is that review group who is
:48:39. > :48:44.going to examine university, do you feel that Mr Russell is gunning for
:48:44. > :48:49.universities at the moment? Gunning for the top tyre in universities?
:48:49. > :48:54.Do you think Gunning for the management? I don't think so. I
:48:54. > :48:59.draw great confidence from the fact he has appointed one of my members
:48:59. > :49:02.to lead this review, now I don't think we have anything to be
:49:02. > :49:06.worried about from the university perspective. Look at the
:49:06. > :49:10.competition over governing bodies at the moment. On average, 40% are
:49:10. > :49:16.drawn from the staff and communities we really are visible
:49:16. > :49:20.and accountable in our governance. Yes, by all means let us look at it,
:49:20. > :49:24.but I don't think a review is going to find there is a fundamental
:49:24. > :49:26.problem, I think the review is going the find out we have robust
:49:26. > :49:32.governance that enables universities to make the decisions
:49:32. > :49:38.that need to be made, in tough times, and that brings in a wide
:49:38. > :49:41.range of ability, and perspective from staff, students in the wider
:49:41. > :49:45.community. I think we have a strong foundation we are buildinging on
:49:45. > :49:50.and of course we are open to looking at how that might be
:49:50. > :49:55.improved. -- building. Thank you very much for joining us. Now, the
:49:55. > :50:00.new leadership of Aberdeen City Council has been agreed. The SNP's
:50:00. > :50:07.Callum McCaig becomes one of the youngest council leaders at only 26.
:50:07. > :50:12.A business plan to save 120 million overify years is also expected to
:50:12. > :50:15.be rubber-stamped. Our reporter is in our Aberdeen studio. Good
:50:15. > :50:19.afternoon Colin. So Callum McCaig has been confirmed in post? Yes,
:50:19. > :50:24.good news for him. He is the youngest council leader as you say
:50:24. > :50:29.in Britain, not in the UK, in Britain it is 29-year-old gentleman
:50:30. > :50:35.in York, and the mayor of Belfast is 25. But he has been confirmed in
:50:35. > :50:40.post, he is 26 years old, very young, some would say inexperience
:50:40. > :50:43.but has been a kouns lo for four years and was convener of the
:50:43. > :50:47.Education Committee so he is not wet behind the ear, eand he has a
:50:47. > :50:53.lot of respect from colleagues and his party. That is the thing. A lot
:50:53. > :50:58.has been made about his age but he seems determined he can do a good
:50:58. > :51:04.job for the city. He says age should be no barrier, he says what
:51:04. > :51:08.age should a councillor be. There is evidence, I am sure we can give
:51:08. > :51:12.example, probably older and wiser heads have made mistakes for
:51:12. > :51:16.council. Callum McCaig comes to this job with an open mind, he says
:51:16. > :51:21.that he will be looking at it, taking advice from his elders and
:51:21. > :51:25.people with more experience, but he wants to take Aberdeen Council for
:51:25. > :51:30.ward. He has had the experience, as I say, he came in when he was
:51:30. > :51:38.elected in 2007, along with three other very young SNP councillors,
:51:38. > :51:43.he is one of that young batch, an of course this isn't unprecedented.
:51:43. > :51:48.Euan Dough was head of Tayside council in 1994 and he was only 22.
:51:48. > :51:52.They have got some very urgent business to attend to, that massive
:51:52. > :51:57.savings plan they have to agree to Absolutely. The five year plan.
:51:57. > :52:01.This is his biggest headache. It is still being considered. It has not
:52:01. > :52:04.been rumer stamped ath as yet. The council has made hundreds of
:52:04. > :52:09.millions of pounds worth of cuts over the last three or four year,
:52:09. > :52:12.over the next five years they are having to rationalise services,
:52:12. > :52:17.they are making �120 million, that is, what they are facing over five
:52:17. > :52:20.year, the unions won't be happy, some are saying that if it goes
:52:20. > :52:24.ahead it will be like a declaration of war. So we can expect some
:52:25. > :52:27.troubled times ahead for Callum McCaig, there are there were
:52:27. > :52:30.protestors outside the meeting to give him a taste of that. That
:52:31. > :52:35.wasn't about the Fife year plan that, was about the controversial
:52:35. > :52:38.plans for the redevelopment of union terrace gardens in the centre
:52:38. > :52:43.of Aberdeen that. Is another of the many headaches this young man will
:52:43. > :52:47.have to face over the coming five years. Lots going on in Aberdeen.
:52:47. > :52:52.Thank you for joining us. It has been a busy day in Scottish
:52:52. > :52:55.politics. Alf Young is still here. Let us go back to the higher
:52:55. > :53:01.education statement from Mike Russell. Were you surprised at this
:53:01. > :53:05.level of a �9,000 capped variable fee? I was surprised on two count,
:53:05. > :53:09.that he went as high as a figure south of the border, but he is
:53:09. > :53:13.leaving it open to the university to decide how much they charge, and
:53:13. > :53:15.you would have thought that for universities like Edinburgh or St
:53:15. > :53:19.Andrews which have large numbers of students from south of the border
:53:19. > :53:23.coming to them at the moment, they would probably be pitching at the
:53:23. > :53:28.high end. And the other thing that surprised me about it, was that he
:53:28. > :53:31.said there has to be some kind of analysis done of how the money gets
:53:31. > :53:36.spread to the other universities, that is an interesting point.
:53:36. > :53:42.you very much for joining us. And that is it from us, today and for