:00:16. > :00:18.Welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme:
:00:18. > :00:20.The Scottish Government accept the Electoral Commission's
:00:20. > :00:27.recommendation to alter the referendum question and higher
:00:27. > :00:30.campaign spending limits. Here at Westminster, MPs pass their
:00:30. > :00:32.verdict on the electoral watchdog's handiwork and student leaders
:00:32. > :00:42.demand that cuts to the college budget are reinstated by the
:00:42. > :00:48.
:00:48. > :00:50.Scottish government. That is our Welcome to the programme.
:00:50. > :00:52.The elections watchdog, Electoral Commission, has recommended a
:00:52. > :00:54.change to the wording of the Scottish Government's proposed
:00:54. > :00:57.question in the independence referendum to ensure its neutrality.
:00:57. > :00:59.The original proposal was, "Do you agree that Scotland should be an
:00:59. > :01:02.independent country?" but the Electoral Commission has
:01:02. > :01:07.recommended that it be changed to, "Should Scotland be an independent
:01:07. > :01:11.country?" It has also proposed higher campaign spending limits
:01:11. > :01:14.than SNP ministers wanted. The Deputy First Minister confirmed the
:01:14. > :01:24.Scottish Government accepts the proposed changes but calls on UK
:01:24. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:31.ministers to enter talks now on what will follow a Yes vote.
:01:31. > :01:34.I also been in recommendation of the commission to the UK and
:01:34. > :01:38.Scottish governments to sit down now and reach a shared
:01:38. > :01:44.understanding of the process that will follow a yes vote is very
:01:44. > :01:48.important. I had been making that suggestion for some time now to the
:01:48. > :01:52.UK Government. I hope both governments will accept all these
:01:52. > :01:57.proposals in full. Prime Minister responded by saying
:01:57. > :02:02.he will work with the Scottish Government in providing information
:02:02. > :02:08.but that was as far as he was willing to go.
:02:08. > :02:12.We will not renegotiate Scotland's exit from the United Kingdom. It is
:02:12. > :02:19.his party that wants to break up the United Kingdom and it is as far
:02:19. > :02:23.his party to make the case. -- for his party.
:02:23. > :02:31.I am joined by our political commentator, Alf Young, who it is
:02:31. > :02:36.here with me this afternoon. A bit of a? Over the negotiations.
:02:36. > :02:41.It is not entirely Clear are what the commission were saying about
:02:41. > :02:46.needing greater clarity about what happens after the vote. It is
:02:46. > :02:52.saying to both governments, get together and tell people what will
:02:52. > :02:56.happen next. It is more next in terms of procedure, not next in
:02:56. > :03:01.terms of are we going to keep the pound, the Queen and all of that?
:03:01. > :03:06.As you can see from that clip with the prime minister, he is very much
:03:06. > :03:10.of the view that that is a case the SNP has to make an team may share
:03:10. > :03:14.information that he will not say to them that the Bank of England will
:03:14. > :03:20.negotiate now about what might happen about the pound after a
:03:20. > :03:24.referendum. He is not prepared to go that far.
:03:24. > :03:29.Just on the question itself, no surprises there to the Electoral
:03:29. > :03:33.Commission came out with this one? All the polling experts said that
:03:33. > :03:41.adding the do you agree statement that in effect have made it a
:03:41. > :03:45.leading question, and urging people in that direction. That it has gone.
:03:45. > :03:51.It is interesting but it has gone so easily and both sides have just
:03:51. > :03:56.agreed that is it and we will go with the question that is now there.
:03:56. > :04:01.They also agreed very easily on campaign finances which was a
:04:01. > :04:05.little bit surprising? It is higher than the SNP wants it
:04:05. > :04:13.but when you look at the numbers that are split, the umbrella Kames
:04:14. > :04:19.get �1.5 million each. There are other registered campaigning for a
:04:19. > :04:25.organisations who could put up extra money. Those organisations
:04:25. > :04:32.are able to spend �150,000. It means there will be parity in terms
:04:33. > :04:34.of the money there will be spent. Making now joined John McCormick,
:04:34. > :04:40.the Electoral Commissioner for Scotland. Good afternoon and thank
:04:40. > :04:45.you for joining me. We were hearing from Alf there that the two sides
:04:45. > :04:51.have agreed on the question. What was your concern about the wording
:04:51. > :04:55.of the question? We are an evidence-based
:04:55. > :05:01.organisations so we conducted a intense research exercise over the
:05:01. > :05:05.last 10 to 12 weeks. The core of that was a research organisation
:05:05. > :05:12.talking to groups up and down the country in focus groups and one-to-
:05:12. > :05:15.one interviews. We also received nearly 500 submissions from
:05:15. > :05:20.campaigners and groups who are interested in the referendum. We
:05:20. > :05:25.put it all together and came out with these recommendations. We put
:05:25. > :05:29.particular weight of what was said by people in focus groups and one-
:05:29. > :05:35.to-one interviews. They took place across Scotland.
:05:35. > :05:39.His relation to spending limits, are you surprised that the Yes
:05:39. > :05:43.campaign also accepts that higher spending limit?
:05:43. > :05:48.I am pleased they accepted it. We had a well worked out argument
:05:49. > :05:53.about why we needed to increase the spending limits. Our key principle
:05:53. > :05:58.is that we do not think there should be a constraint on people
:05:58. > :06:02.campaigning. This is a historic referendum. We have looked at the
:06:02. > :06:08.funding limits for parliamentary elections and related it to that.
:06:08. > :06:14.There is broad parity with the elections. We want a level playing
:06:14. > :06:17.field. This is a level ceiling. These levels are set so people
:06:17. > :06:23.cannot go be on them. It is important for this referendum that
:06:23. > :06:27.there is no constraint on campaigning. We do not want there
:06:27. > :06:33.to be excessive spending but we do not want a constraints in putting
:06:33. > :06:38.the arguments to people. We outlined why we think both sides
:06:38. > :06:44.can campaign effectively within that limit.
:06:44. > :06:48.You have urged for clarity in the political process for after the
:06:48. > :06:53.referendum. The UK Government have said they will provide information
:06:53. > :07:00.but the commission recognises independence cannot BP negotiated.
:07:00. > :07:05.What is your interpretation of this club up -- interpretation of this
:07:05. > :07:09.clarification? This issue came to us from voters
:07:09. > :07:13.and citizens the we talked to. There was a clear demand from them
:07:13. > :07:18.in the research that they want to know what would happen the day
:07:18. > :07:23.after the referendum whatever people vote. What are the next
:07:23. > :07:28.steps? Some others may guess what the next steps might be but there
:07:28. > :07:31.is a clear demand for people to know what they are. We have passed
:07:32. > :07:37.those on to both governments and so said that the voters have asked for
:07:37. > :07:40.clarity on the timetable and what would happen next. We hope the
:07:40. > :07:46.Government will agree a joint statement to define what the next
:07:46. > :07:49.steps will be so people are clear round that. The voters want to know
:07:49. > :07:54.the next steps from the two governments and it is up to them to
:07:54. > :07:59.respond to that. We are articulating the request on behalf
:07:59. > :08:04.of the voters. One to identify those steps as
:08:04. > :08:08.process steps of substantive points about Scottish independence?
:08:08. > :08:12.I do not want to put flesh on these bones of collar them in because we
:08:12. > :08:16.did not go through that with the people we spoke to. They said
:08:16. > :08:21.towards that they would like to know what happened after the
:08:22. > :08:25.referendum, so we are spelling that out to the governments. People want
:08:26. > :08:30.to know. They do not want uncertainty the day after or six
:08:30. > :08:36.months after. I would expect that to be largely process, so they have
:08:36. > :08:40.a clear idea of timetabling and time frame. Everything we do in our
:08:40. > :08:45.report is based on research and evidence. We did not go back and
:08:45. > :08:48.question them in detail about that but the voice was very loudly
:08:48. > :08:54.expressed, and the request was loudly expressed, and we have
:08:54. > :08:59.plenty of time, all others who are involved in this, too response to
:08:59. > :09:03.that and tested further. Some might construe this as
:09:03. > :09:07.wandering into political territory because there is an argument going
:09:07. > :09:11.on about negotiations before independence?
:09:11. > :09:15.We do not go into political territory. There is uncertainty
:09:15. > :09:19.among voters as to what will happen and we hope that campaign groups
:09:19. > :09:24.and governments will clarify what will happen in their own way. That
:09:24. > :09:28.is up to them. Can you tell us how the our
:09:28. > :09:32.Electoral Commission will operate until 2014? What else will you be
:09:33. > :09:36.keeping an eye on? We will keep an eye on the
:09:36. > :09:42.legislation going through the Scottish Parliament. A Bill should
:09:42. > :09:46.be completed by the end of June to allow registration offices to
:09:46. > :09:50.recruit 16 and 17 year-olds in the electoral registers. We will
:09:50. > :09:53.monitor the progress of the referendum Bill through the
:09:53. > :09:57.parliament and by the ends of the year we will publish a report on
:09:57. > :10:02.the state of readiness for the referendum. It is a regular process
:10:02. > :10:08.where we will say where we are were so many moons ago, this has been
:10:08. > :10:16.done and this has not been. We will to a state of readiness report
:10:16. > :10:21.before Christmas. We have the European elections in June and the
:10:21. > :10:27.European a referent -- and the referendums sometime in the autumn.
:10:27. > :10:32.Thank you very much for speaking to us. Let me speak once again to Alf
:10:32. > :10:36.Young. Interesting to hear what was said there about the process after
:10:36. > :10:41.the referendum. He said it would largely be process
:10:41. > :10:47.issues, so it is about the timing of what happens. It is clear from
:10:47. > :10:52.the written statements today that it is about both outcomes. It could
:10:52. > :10:56.then take us into territory like, if it is a no vote, what are the
:10:56. > :11:04.plans of the Westminster government in terms of further devolution off
:11:04. > :11:07.further changes to the relationship with a devolved Scotland? What I do
:11:07. > :11:13.not think it will actually get to, but it will be interesting to see,
:11:13. > :11:19.because it will be quite political, it will not get to the point that I
:11:19. > :11:23.think a lot of people were coming from, which is to say if I say yes,
:11:23. > :11:28.what does it mean for my life in terms of the currency I amusing and
:11:28. > :11:34.the security of my job, all my ability to move freely about the
:11:34. > :11:38.country? These kinds of issues are not going to be resolved this time
:11:38. > :11:45.of the outcome of the vote. Some are these people may even think of
:11:45. > :11:47.that that would be the better time to have a referendum, once you know
:11:47. > :11:51.what the package is. It takes us back to an argument there was
:11:51. > :12:01.buried a long time ago about whether this referendum should be a
:12:01. > :12:04.
:12:04. > :12:08.two-stage referendum they could be a talk for a man day it --. When
:12:08. > :12:14.they could be a top for a mandate and then a discussion about the
:12:14. > :12:18.package. What it will be about is the two sides are providing
:12:18. > :12:24.information about what is at stake and the Westminster government is
:12:24. > :12:30.already lining up a whole series of papers about its case for the union,
:12:30. > :12:36.in terms of information. It says it will share information, as the Bank
:12:36. > :12:43.of England has said to the Scottish government that it would share
:12:43. > :12:48.information about the process of currency union. It will take you
:12:48. > :12:51.some way down the road but I think for some of the voters who are
:12:51. > :12:56.asking the commission for more clarity about what an independent
:12:56. > :13:04.Scotland would look like, or what a Scotland have voted No would look
:13:04. > :13:07.like after the referendum, I do not think it will take us much further
:13:07. > :13:15.forward. Thank-you for that. Let us get the
:13:15. > :13:19.political reaction for -- political reaction from Holyrood. We have
:13:19. > :13:26.representatives of what the three main parties in the Garden Lobby at
:13:26. > :13:30.Holyrood. First to Annabelle Ewing as the SNP, we have heard from the
:13:30. > :13:33.an Electoral Commission there. Is this a climbdown from the Scottish
:13:33. > :13:39.governments that this new question has been accepted because the
:13:39. > :13:44.ritual question was loaded? Good afternoon. We are delighted
:13:44. > :13:50.with the question. It is clear and straightforward. Should Scotland be
:13:50. > :13:54.an independent country? Yes or No. The question we initially put
:13:54. > :13:58.forward they have described as being fair and easy to understand
:13:58. > :14:03.and they did not find any evidence of deliberate partiality but they
:14:03. > :14:09.have put forward in the recommendation a refinement of that
:14:09. > :14:11.original suggestion and we are very happy with the wording may have
:14:11. > :14:15.recommended. See you not accept that the
:14:15. > :14:21.original do you agree was a little bit Loaded and the commission was
:14:21. > :14:24.likely to change that? You put forward the question and
:14:24. > :14:29.the Electoral Commission does its important work and that is what has
:14:29. > :14:33.happened in this case. It said it could not find any evidence of
:14:33. > :14:40.deliberate partiality in the framing of the question but have
:14:40. > :14:49.refined it. I think that is a very straightforward, clear question and
:14:49. > :14:52.one it -- one we are very happy to support.
:14:52. > :14:58.The Scottish Government appeared to have accepted a high amount for
:14:58. > :15:01.campaign funding. This SNP wanted to have a lower amount. I you
:15:01. > :15:10.trying to spend your way to victory?
:15:10. > :15:14.Are not at all. It is important appropriate spending limits are set.
:15:14. > :15:21.The SNP wanted to cap those spending limits which were in real
:15:22. > :15:25.terms much alone were then for the 1997 referendum. This is a big
:15:25. > :15:30.decision for Scotland and campaigns need appropriate amounts in order
:15:30. > :15:36.to inform the voters and get the message across. We look forward to
:15:36. > :15:40.that campaign ahead. Turning to another issue the
:15:41. > :15:45.Electoral Commission has raised, seeking clarification of what will
:15:46. > :15:54.happen after a yes or No vote, how do you interpret that? The Prime
:15:54. > :16:02.Minister was very clear that this meant independence would not be
:16:02. > :16:07.negotiated before the referendum. This is not something we are
:16:07. > :16:12.advocating. It would be like saying to someone who has been happily
:16:12. > :16:19.marrieds that they have no plans to divorce but we should work out what
:16:19. > :16:22.our divorce settlement should be in the event we would like to. It is
:16:22. > :16:32.for those who advocate the tearing up of the union to explain what it
:16:32. > :16:36.
:16:36. > :16:39.will need for the people of What the Conservative Party want,
:16:39. > :16:42.what the Labour Party and Liberal Democrats want, is we believe in
:16:42. > :16:45.the United Kingdom and want that to continue. We want people in
:16:45. > :16:48.Scotland to choose, to make the big decision, do they want to be part
:16:48. > :16:53.of the most successful political union in history? Or do they want
:16:53. > :16:56.to separate from it? On the other side of that decision are liberated
:16:56. > :16:59.and empowered Scotland will be able to negotiate for its future in a
:16:59. > :17:03.more successful way as part of the United Kingdom which is how I
:17:03. > :17:07.believe the people of Scotland will decide. It's for those who
:17:07. > :17:10.flippantly will say that everything is very easy and that access to
:17:10. > :17:14.everything, currency, the European Union, our own security services
:17:14. > :17:16.even, it just has to be asserted. It's for them to explain to the
:17:16. > :17:22.people of Scotland exactly what the detail of that is, to determine
:17:22. > :17:25.whether it's credible. I think it's found short at each turn. Well
:17:25. > :17:30.clearly putting there the Conservative point of view, there
:17:30. > :17:33.will be no negotiation before the referendum. How do you interpret
:17:33. > :17:37.what the Electoral Commission said about this clarification? Well, I
:17:37. > :17:42.think it was very interesting that one of the key recommendations of
:17:42. > :17:45.the Electoral Commission was to have both governments provide
:17:45. > :17:52.information as to the position in the event of a yes vote in terms of
:17:52. > :17:56.the how. The transition process. It has to be recalled that Nicola
:17:56. > :18:01.Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister recently sought these kind of
:18:01. > :18:05.discussions with the UK Government and was rebuffed. So I would hope
:18:05. > :18:07.that today the UK Government will abg seed to this recommendation of
:18:07. > :18:12.the Electoral Commission because, after all, they have been saying
:18:12. > :18:17.right up until today that all the recommendations of the Electoral
:18:17. > :18:21.Commission should be 100% respected. Presumably, they will also acseed
:18:21. > :18:25.to this recommendation, perhaps Jackson could clarify that for us.
:18:25. > :18:28.I want to pick up with you on that, because we were speaking to John
:18:28. > :18:31.McCormick there and he was saying it was more of a look at the
:18:31. > :18:35.process of what would happen on each side after the referendum and
:18:35. > :18:41.perhaps not more the substantive points, almost the pre-negotiation
:18:41. > :18:45.points that you want to see. As you say, it's an Electoral Commission
:18:45. > :18:50.recommendation, perhaps it isn't that? Well, it is a recommendation.
:18:50. > :18:52.The Electoral Commission - what I think they're saying is there
:18:52. > :18:56.should be talks on the how, how would you proceed in the event of a
:18:56. > :19:00.yes vote. That's entirely sensible and that's indeed what the Deputy
:19:00. > :19:03.First Minister has been calling on the UK Government to embark upon.
:19:03. > :19:07.That's what the Electoral Commission has recommended today.
:19:07. > :19:11.We are 100% behind the recommendations of the Electoral
:19:11. > :19:13.Commission and I hope that the anti-independence parties are as
:19:13. > :19:17.well because they certainly talk the talk, until today that they
:19:17. > :19:21.would sign up 100% to the recommendations of the Electoral
:19:21. > :19:24.Commission. James Kelly, will you talk the talk, do you think it
:19:24. > :19:28.might be helpful to have these kind of discussions between the Scottish
:19:28. > :19:32.and UK governments, maybe to help people out there understand what
:19:32. > :19:36.exactly is meant by Scottish independence and what is meant to -
:19:36. > :19:43.for staying in the union? I think it's important not to get bogged
:19:43. > :19:46.down on negotiations and the SNP have misconstrued what was in the
:19:46. > :19:50.Electoral Commission report. There's no talk about negotiations.
:19:50. > :19:54.I think the clear thing is that we must lay out the implications of
:19:54. > :19:58.the decisions before us and what people are interested in is how is
:19:58. > :20:01.it going to impact on their life, what's going to be the impact of
:20:01. > :20:05.independence on Scotland's financial institutions? What is the
:20:05. > :20:10.impact on the two thirds of exports that leave this country currently
:20:10. > :20:14.and that will impact on the economy, it will have detrimental effect on
:20:14. > :20:17.the amount of money in people's pockets, the money in the Scottish
:20:17. > :20:20.budget, and and therefore, independence would be bad for the
:20:20. > :20:25.Scottish people. We will be putting that across and also the positive
:20:25. > :20:28.case for devolution as we enter the campaign trail. I want to briefly
:20:28. > :20:33.turn to one other point that we will be covering today, the
:20:33. > :20:38.Scottish budget. A debate is going on in the chamber this afternoon
:20:38. > :20:42.about college funding. On that point, Labour are calling for a
:20:42. > :20:47.reversal of the �35 million cut to colleges, do you think the
:20:47. > :20:50.Education Secretary might accept that? Well, I am not privy to the
:20:50. > :20:53.debate because I am here with you, but what is clear is that the
:20:53. > :20:56.Scottish Government is committed to our further education secretary are
:20:56. > :21:00.to and there has been record investment over the last years and
:21:00. > :21:04.we have maintained against a difficult backdrop of very harsh
:21:04. > :21:08.cuts from Westminster, we have maintained full-time equivalent
:21:08. > :21:11.student numbers over the last years and in the year to come, I think
:21:11. > :21:16.that's tremendous credit to the Government's determination to
:21:16. > :21:21.ensure that all our young people have the opportunity to have an
:21:21. > :21:24.education and to get training that they need to skill themselves for
:21:24. > :21:30.their careers ahead. I would pay tribute in this respect to the
:21:30. > :21:35.campaign being run by the NUS in Scotland. I have just - received
:21:35. > :21:38.another e-mail from a student who was very anxious to engage in the
:21:38. > :21:42.political process and certainly the case that we have been seeing
:21:42. > :21:46.record investment in our colleges and, rightly so. James Kelly,
:21:46. > :21:50.Labour have called this debate, but how can you balance the budget if
:21:50. > :21:54.you want to reinstate that �35 million, where is it going to come
:21:54. > :21:59.from? You can easily find the money from underspends, there are always
:21:59. > :22:01.underspends in the Scottish budget. The clear issue this afternoon is
:22:01. > :22:05.Mike Russell misled parliament in October when he said there were no
:22:05. > :22:09.college waiting lists. He must apologise to parliament and we must
:22:09. > :22:16.clearly get on to the issue of tackling waiting lists and as part
:22:16. > :22:20.of that we need to reinstate the �34.6 million which has been taken
:22:20. > :22:23.from college budgets by the SNP. Your colleague Liz Smith will be
:22:23. > :22:27.speaking in this debate, but it's rather difficult to try to
:22:28. > :22:32.reinstate that �34 million when the Scottish Government are quite clear
:22:32. > :22:38.they're under tight financial constraints because of Westminster.
:22:38. > :22:41.We know Alex Salmond's Prom thaeus the rock would melt - it meant the
:22:41. > :22:44.opportunity for thousands of young Scots who were at college have
:22:44. > :22:48.melted in the sun in the wake of that promise. Because thousands of
:22:48. > :22:52.young people who were otherwise have been in Scotland's college
:22:52. > :22:56.sector have found their places cut. It's a disgrace and I I think Mike
:22:56. > :22:59.Russell really has, as James Kelly said, misled parliament. I think
:22:59. > :23:02.throughout Liz Smith has been on his case. This really is the last
:23:02. > :23:06.chance saloon for the Scottish Government to actually restore in
:23:06. > :23:09.the name of the economy of Scotland the job prospects of the future
:23:09. > :23:19.college places for many thousands of young people in further
:23:19. > :23:22.education. Thank you all very much for joining me.
:23:22. > :23:25.Now Prime Ministers questions. There was claim and counterclaim
:23:25. > :23:29.about the Government's progress on the economy. Ed Miliband, the
:23:29. > :23:31.Labour leader, claimed not enough was being done to boost economic
:23:31. > :23:36.recovery. But the Prime Minister defended the Government's austerity
:23:36. > :23:44.programme and responded to an SNP question on the Electoral
:23:44. > :23:48.Commission. Now, growth was not not 5% but 0.4%.
:23:48. > :23:53.A flatlining economy means people's living standards are falling. Now
:23:53. > :23:57.his excuse is that other countries have done worse than us. Can he
:23:57. > :24:02.confirm that since the Chancellor's spending review more than two years
:24:02. > :24:08.ago, out of 20 major G20 economies Britain has been 18th out of 20 for
:24:08. > :24:11.growth? First of all, let me say on high speed rail, which goes right
:24:11. > :24:14.through the middle of the Chancellor's constituency, we are
:24:14. > :24:19.proud of the fact that it's this Government that's taken the
:24:19. > :24:22.decision to invest. Just as it's this Government that's building
:24:22. > :24:27.Crossrail which is the biggest construction plan anywhere in
:24:27. > :24:33.Europe. Now he asks about other European economies. The fact is if
:24:33. > :24:37.you listen to the European Union, the OECD or the IMF, they all point
:24:37. > :24:41.out that Britain will have the fastest growth of any major economy
:24:41. > :24:46.in Europe this year. I have to ask him, what is his plan? We all know
:24:46. > :24:50.it, it's a three-point plan, more spending, more borrowing, more debt.
:24:50. > :24:55.Exactly the things that got us into the mess in the first place. I have
:24:55. > :25:00.to say, we have used to that kind of answer from the Prime Minister.
:25:00. > :25:04.He promises a better tomorrow and tomorrow never comes. That is the
:25:04. > :25:08.reality. He couldn't deny the fact that we are 18th out of 20
:25:08. > :25:14.countries. We have done worse than the USA, worse than Canada, than
:25:14. > :25:19.Germany, worse than France, because of his decisions. Now last week the
:25:19. > :25:23.chief economist of the IMF said this - if things look bad at the
:25:23. > :25:28.beginning of 2013, which they do, and he was talking about the UK,
:25:28. > :25:32.there should be a reassessment of fiscal policy. Mr Speaker, after
:25:32. > :25:37.two years of no growth, can the Prime Minister tell us whether he
:25:37. > :25:40.thinks he should do anything differently in the next two years?
:25:40. > :25:47.First of all, I would say that he should listen to the managing
:25:47. > :25:52.director of the IMF who said this, when I think back myself of May
:25:52. > :25:59.2010 when the UK deficit was at a 11%, when you were in office, right,
:25:59. > :26:02.and I tried to imagine what the situation would be like today if no
:26:02. > :26:08.such fiscal consolidation programme had been decided, I shiver. That is
:26:08. > :26:11.what the IMF said about the plans of the last Labour Government.
:26:11. > :26:14.Scottish Government has today accepted the welcome proposals of
:26:14. > :26:18.the Electoral Commission in relation to the independence
:26:19. > :26:22.referendum in full. Amongst those recommendations is that the UK
:26:22. > :26:26.Government and the Scottish Government should joinly agree to
:26:26. > :26:30.clarify what process will follow the referendum for either outcome.
:26:30. > :26:33.Given that the UK Government and indeed the Labour Party have called
:26:33. > :26:35.for the full acceptance of the Electoral Commission
:26:35. > :26:38.recommendations, will the Prime Minister today give a commitment
:26:38. > :26:42.that he will work with the Scottish Government in advance of the
:26:42. > :26:47.referendum to come up with this joint position? Well, first of all,
:26:47. > :26:49.can I welcome the fact that the SNP have accepted what the Electoral
:26:49. > :26:53.Commission found because the Electoral Commission were worried
:26:53. > :26:56.that, frankly, it was a biased question. So I think it's good
:26:56. > :27:00.they've accepted that. Of course we will work with the Scottish
:27:00. > :27:05.Government in providing information, but let me be clear about what we
:27:05. > :27:09.won't do. We will not pre-negotiate Scotland's exit from the United
:27:09. > :27:13.Kingdom. It is, frankly, it is his party that wants to break up the
:27:13. > :27:19.United Kingdom. It's for his party to make the case.
:27:19. > :27:23.Let's go to Westminster and speak to our correspondent standing by on
:27:23. > :27:25.College Green. Thank you very much. As we heard the normal tough and
:27:25. > :27:29.tumble and arguments over the economy, but as far as we are
:27:29. > :27:32.concerned in Scotland, one story on the agenda today, and that's the
:27:32. > :27:37.Electoral Commission with its two reports. One on the referendum
:27:37. > :27:47.question and the second on party funding. To discuss those issue I
:27:47. > :27:49.
:27:49. > :27:52.am joined by three Scottish MPs. Generally on that question of the
:27:52. > :27:55.referendum, do you think the Electoral Commission has got it
:27:55. > :27:57.about right? I think so. The important thing is we have a clear
:27:57. > :28:01.question that everybody understands and one that everybody can accept
:28:01. > :28:04.the result from. That isn't misleading and wouldn't be open to
:28:04. > :28:11.challenge. I think the analysis behind it, plus their conclusion
:28:11. > :28:14.and their recommendation seems to be imminently sensible and I hope
:28:15. > :28:21.we all agree on it. Your party wanted a question of do you agree
:28:21. > :28:24.Scotland should be an independent country. Was it playing politics
:28:24. > :28:30.which your party thinking we will shoot for the moon and accept
:28:30. > :28:33.something less? Not at all. We put forward a question. It went to the
:28:33. > :28:36.Electoral Commission, we are happy with what they've said. They did
:28:36. > :28:40.say our question was clear and easy to understand but some people
:28:40. > :28:43.thought it might be leading, I don't know who that was was but
:28:43. > :28:46.they've made a recommendation. We accepted immediately that
:28:46. > :28:49.recommendation. We are happy with what's come forward. Do you believe
:28:49. > :28:54.that the question is now clear and simple and it is basically the best
:28:54. > :28:59.form of words we can get for this debate? Yes, I am very happy that
:28:59. > :29:02.the SNP have eventually come out and - in relationship to the fact
:29:02. > :29:06.you have been labouring for many months as to whether you would
:29:06. > :29:10.accept the Electoral Commission's advice, came out today and said
:29:10. > :29:14.that they would. I am very, very satisfied that the question that is
:29:14. > :29:17.now going to be on the ballot paper according to the Electoral
:29:17. > :29:21.Commission is not one that's weighted in any way and it's a
:29:21. > :29:24.clear and fair question, because we need, as Malcolm said, we need to
:29:24. > :29:27.be sure that everybody can be contebt with this -- content with
:29:27. > :29:31.this result. As far as funding is concerned, the Electoral Commission
:29:31. > :29:41.have perhaps been kinder to the political parties saying no, we
:29:41. > :29:51.
:29:51. > :29:55.I think the our Electoral Commission have come forward with
:29:55. > :29:58.something that gives a fair, balanced and realistic level of
:29:58. > :30:02.funding. There are things that must be done and the previous level of
:30:02. > :30:10.funding would not have allowed proper communication with the
:30:10. > :30:12.voters. The voters need answers and information through their doors.
:30:12. > :30:18.So the air Electoral Commission have untidy the hands that your
:30:18. > :30:22.government was trying to tie? Not at all. The Electoral
:30:22. > :30:28.Commission have come up with something different to what we
:30:28. > :30:31.suggested. We have accepted that. Are the other parties going to
:30:31. > :30:36.accept what the Electoral Commission has said regarding talks
:30:36. > :30:42.about what could happen after the independence referendum. It is a
:30:42. > :30:52.double standard. That is not what was said. That is
:30:52. > :30:52.
:30:52. > :30:57.the SNP putting their own spin on Let us tackle what was said, then.
:30:57. > :31:02.The Electoral Commission said there should be a framework developed,
:31:02. > :31:11.not that negotiations should take place before the referendum. That
:31:11. > :31:15.is very clear. Go away and clear it, -- go away and read it, my. The
:31:15. > :31:20.question you must answer is what talks when you have about what will
:31:20. > :31:26.happen when Scotland votes to know? Will there be another 80 years of
:31:26. > :31:29.ranting about independence? The SNP has made it clear they are
:31:29. > :31:34.prepared to enter into negotiations about the process.
:31:34. > :31:39.The is is not just about the UK. There is an international to
:31:39. > :31:43.mention about this. There can be no rational discussion about an
:31:43. > :31:48.independent Scotland it has not been agreed. We can have a process
:31:48. > :31:52.discussion about what will happen. But you cannot prejudge that until
:31:52. > :31:57.the people had decided. We should set a framework for that process
:31:57. > :32:01.but that should not be the same as prix negotiation.
:32:01. > :32:05.When did discussion about framework start to border on discussions
:32:05. > :32:10.about what might happen? If you take the example of a
:32:10. > :32:13.discussion about currency, it is impossible to conclude what kind of
:32:14. > :32:18.currency arrangements there will be until you have decided whether
:32:18. > :32:23.Scotland will be independent. It is a waste of time, energy and money
:32:23. > :32:29.to get into a discussion like that before the event.
:32:29. > :32:36.So, my, you cannot have detailed conversations until you have
:32:36. > :32:40.decided the issue. I was talking about the process.
:32:40. > :32:43.The Electoral Commission has said there should be negotiations
:32:44. > :32:48.between the UK and Scottish government on these matters. We
:32:48. > :32:52.have been talking -- calling for that for a long time. The UK
:32:52. > :32:56.governments have refused to do so. It is a double standard from them.
:32:56. > :33:02.They demand the we accept all the Electoral Commission says and they
:33:02. > :33:05.will not accept it. We are very happy to accept what
:33:05. > :33:10.the Electoral Commission has said. We have said for months we will
:33:10. > :33:14.accept all of their recommendations. Johann Lamont came out today to say
:33:14. > :33:19.she was made comfortable with what they put forward today. We in the
:33:19. > :33:23.Scottish Labour Party will put forward our plans before the autumn
:33:23. > :33:30.of 2014 for an extension into evolution. That is what we will two.
:33:30. > :33:35.We do not know what might's party will do when the Scotland votes No.
:33:36. > :33:40.At the end of the day, while the question be that important? Surely
:33:40. > :33:45.by 2014 people will know what side of the debate they are on.
:33:46. > :33:49.If it is a leading question, there was a danger that people will not
:33:49. > :33:53.accept the result. People will know which side of the arguments they
:33:53. > :33:58.are on and I think many people have already made up their mind. The
:33:58. > :34:06.important thing is, whether you are for or against independence, you
:34:06. > :34:09.accept the argument and work with The same question to you, briefly.
:34:09. > :34:13.The Electoral Commission said are question was clear and there was a
:34:13. > :34:16.high level of understanding of the issues. We have accepted their
:34:16. > :34:21.recommendations and will get on with the campaign and are confident
:34:21. > :34:25.of a Yes vote. It is hugely important though we
:34:25. > :34:29.have a level playing field and there is no leading anywhere in the
:34:29. > :34:35.question. I am very happy we can get on and discuss the real issues
:34:36. > :34:40.about Scotland's feature within the United Kingdom.
:34:40. > :34:47.Andrew, they you have it, at three happy politicians down at
:34:47. > :34:52.Westminster. We must be doing something wrong!
:34:52. > :34:58.Holyrood's budget is due to be finalised next week and there have
:34:58. > :35:02.been calls for a �35 million cut in college funding to be reversed. The
:35:02. > :35:08.NUS have written to the finance secretary and Labour are raising
:35:08. > :35:18.that with the Education Secretary in the chamber this afternoon.
:35:18. > :35:25.
:35:25. > :35:29.Hugh Henry. What I will say to Mr Henry is that
:35:29. > :35:34.the principle of what will be Dean new University of the West of
:35:34. > :35:42.Scotland College is keen on the plans we have going forward. They
:35:42. > :35:46.are working with us. Labour have been found once again attempting to
:35:46. > :35:54.make political gain with scare tactics. There any policies seem to
:35:54. > :36:03.be those of fear now. Near the average waiting list up on the
:36:03. > :36:08.Scottish colleges waiting-lists has shown that many and not actually
:36:08. > :36:15.waiting for a place. The figures quoted by Labour appeared to be
:36:15. > :36:20.complete fantasy. Labour were told to deal with this issue in a mature
:36:20. > :36:24.manner. We're dealing with the future of young people. They have
:36:24. > :36:28.decided to carry on regardless. I have said after enduring debate in
:36:28. > :36:32.this chamber that out with this bubble there is a real-world out
:36:33. > :36:35.there with a real people and their allies. They are extremely
:36:35. > :36:41.disappointed when they hear some of the debates that come from this
:36:41. > :36:44.chamber, particularly from the Labour Party. They just believe in
:36:44. > :36:50.dealing with their issues and making personal attacks on
:36:50. > :36:54.individuals rather than discussing the whole issue we're here to
:36:54. > :37:01.debate. The audit confirms that duplication of appliqued puts on
:37:01. > :37:08.the alleged waiting lists was an issue. -- Bob applicants on the
:37:08. > :37:16.alleged waiting-lists. The majority appear to have found a place on a a
:37:16. > :37:23.course at another college. Labour went round every college and
:37:23. > :37:28.probably got similar figures to what we already have. On the whole,
:37:28. > :37:32.Scotland's colleges, with some of the figures they brought to the
:37:32. > :37:40.committee, were not particularly good at the best of time. What
:37:40. > :37:43.would Labour do differently? Last week Ken Mackintosh course --
:37:43. > :37:52.called for all of the money to be reinstated to the budget and spent
:37:52. > :37:59.on housing. John Swinney stated last year that �205 million would
:37:59. > :38:04.be spent including some on capital investment and in education. What
:38:04. > :38:08.he take money from this budget and spend it on further and higher
:38:08. > :38:15.education. This is an attempt to get a headline instead of looking
:38:15. > :38:20.after the students of Scotland. Thank you.
:38:20. > :38:24.It is unfortunate that we are here once again having to debate further
:38:24. > :38:28.education in this chamber and to challenge this Government's Stav
:38:28. > :38:38.which cuts which are having a devastating impact on thousands of
:38:38. > :38:38.
:38:38. > :38:41.people across Scotland. -- savage cuts. We are, once more, having to
:38:41. > :38:45.challenge the Education Secretary who continues to deny what is
:38:45. > :38:49.happening in our colleges. Given that the Education Secretary said
:38:49. > :38:54.last year that college produced were increasing when in fact they
:38:54. > :38:59.were decreasing, it is unsurprising he has been caught denying rowers
:38:59. > :39:05.see it again. He was as a simple question about college waiting
:39:05. > :39:10.lists. He said it was a false concept. The only false concept
:39:11. > :39:18.here is his answers. How many people are on College waiting
:39:18. > :39:22.lists? We still do not know. The Cabinet Secretary does not know.
:39:22. > :39:26.Their own interim order it has stated that there are people in
:39:26. > :39:32.Scotland on waiting lists and waiting for college places and if
:39:32. > :39:37.there was any more doubt, the SNP's own amendment today even admits
:39:37. > :39:41.there are waiting lists. It should not be a surprise that we have
:39:41. > :39:46.College waiting lists. It should not be a surprise when so many
:39:46. > :39:52.staff in posts have been removed from our college system. It should
:39:52. > :40:00.not be a surprise when you/college teaching projects for when student
:40:00. > :40:04.numbers have been cut by thousands. It took my Russell six months to
:40:04. > :40:10.apologise for misleading Parliament last time. How long will we have to
:40:10. > :40:15.wait for an apology this time? How can anyone have any confidence in
:40:15. > :40:18.him when he continually misleads this chamber but, more seriously,
:40:18. > :40:26.he implements policies that continues to damage the life
:40:26. > :40:30.chances of thousands of Scots. A Labour representative speaking in
:40:30. > :40:40.the chamber there. Let us pick up on some of those
:40:40. > :40:45.points with our commentator Alf Young. They were described as a
:40:45. > :40:48.duplicitous apposition. What is going on in the college sector at
:40:48. > :40:52.the moment? The college sector is going through
:40:52. > :40:57.a remarkable restructuring which has brought down from above and put
:40:57. > :41:02.on the sector. Several colleges are having to combine into bigger
:41:02. > :41:07.regional units so there is that administrative turmoil. There is a
:41:07. > :41:11.question of funding and the net impact on that appears to be that
:41:11. > :41:15.there are fewer students in future are going through the system. There
:41:15. > :41:19.is talk about full-time equivalents and the rest of it but in terms of
:41:19. > :41:26.actual students, there will be disappointed people who cannot get
:41:26. > :41:30.places on courses. The Government is, to a degree, vulnerable in the
:41:30. > :41:35.sense that it has made a priority in policy terms of not charging
:41:35. > :41:41.tuition fees at university level and that has to be paid for
:41:42. > :41:46.somewhere and it appears it is being paid for from the bit iffy
:41:46. > :41:55.post-school education system that his nearest facing two jobs in the
:41:55. > :42:00.economy. -- that bit of the post- school education system. The other
:42:00. > :42:07.parties are making the most of this, as they always do.
:42:07. > :42:10.Labour calling for that �35 million cut to be reversed. They are
:42:10. > :42:15.focusing on the so-called waiting list. Apparently 5,000 people are
:42:15. > :42:21.on them but Mr Russell has called them a false concept.
:42:21. > :42:23.I am not clear from that debate and to the one in the media that I
:42:23. > :42:30.understand who is in the right on that.
:42:30. > :42:32.It is quite difficult to work out! It is unclear whether there are
:42:32. > :42:38.actual waiting lists on not and there are people who are not
:42:38. > :42:42.getting on to courses because colleges are, as part of the
:42:42. > :42:48.rationalising the courses they deliver, reducing the number of
:42:48. > :42:52.students. The money is smaller. Some people are being disappointed.
:42:52. > :42:58.Whether it is a waiting list on just a degree of numbers of people
:42:58. > :43:02.who are not making it into courses, at the end of the day it is damaged
:43:02. > :43:07.life chances and that is where political action is.
:43:07. > :43:13.One other key story came out today. The Office of Fair Trading looking
:43:13. > :43:16.at the UK petrol market. They say it is doing well but a lot of
:43:16. > :43:24.independent retailers say this is a great disappointment.
:43:24. > :43:28.They do not like it and motorists do not like it either. There are 7p
:43:28. > :43:34.in rises in wholesale prices sitting in the pipeline, waiting to
:43:34. > :43:42.show up on the forecourt. It would push petrol prices up to 140p per