:00:17. > :00:22.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme
:00:23. > :00:25.today: With fewer than five months to go until the independence
:00:26. > :00:30.referendum, the debate heats up. MSPs discuss it in parliament this
:00:31. > :00:33.afternoon. More delays for the plans to introduce minimum pricing for
:00:34. > :00:39.alcohol as a Scottish judge sends it to a European court for
:00:40. > :00:43.consideration. And here at Westminster, they may not have any
:00:44. > :00:50.MPs but the parties are all watching the rise of UKIP.
:00:51. > :00:53.Now, as the countdown clock ticks until the 18th of September the
:00:54. > :00:56.debate is heating up and political arguments, once confined to Holyrood
:00:57. > :01:03.and TV studios, are now taking place in the nation's workplaces, schools
:01:04. > :01:06.and pubs. The Conservatives are using their debating time in
:01:07. > :01:11.Parliament to look at the issue. More from the chamber in a moment.
:01:12. > :01:13.First, let's cross to Glenn Campbell who's standing by with a quartet of
:01:14. > :01:24.MSPs. Not just any quartet. Let's go to
:01:25. > :01:29.Alec Johnson. It is your motion. This is Scotland's democratic
:01:30. > :01:36.elected parliament. If you lose this afternoon that is it, you give up. I
:01:37. > :01:40.don't see that happening. The motion today is all about celebrating
:01:41. > :01:44.Scotland's place in the union. It is something we need to shout about
:01:45. > :01:48.uncelebrated. There are a lot of people in Scotland who believe that
:01:49. > :01:52.Scotland have a great deal to contribute, have contributed in the
:01:53. > :01:59.past, will contribute in the future. This is Scotland's opportunity to
:02:00. > :02:04.support the union. You won't be shouting in the same direction. I am
:02:05. > :02:08.looking forward to the debate this afternoon and some of the positive
:02:09. > :02:13.contribution will come from our benches. Scotland has the
:02:14. > :02:21.opportunity to reinvigorate democracy. Scotland got government
:02:22. > :02:27.it did not vote for. But it is a democratic institution. Scotland
:02:28. > :02:35.voted one way and we got governments of a different colour. That is the
:02:36. > :02:43.opposite. Is there an opportunity for Labour to be the government for
:02:44. > :02:48.the independent Scotland? Whatever happens after the referendum we will
:02:49. > :02:53.compete in elections and so will the SNP weathered it is a yes or no.
:02:54. > :03:00.Democracy will continue no matter what happens. One of the reasons for
:03:01. > :03:05.maintaining the union is dead is an opportunity for a Labour government
:03:06. > :03:19.right across the UK. -- is that it is an opportunity. Can Labour govern
:03:20. > :03:24.in England? We need to have solidarity. We know that in
:03:25. > :03:29.progressive decisions that have been taken across the UK that is because
:03:30. > :03:34.working people have demanded those progressive decisions to be made.
:03:35. > :03:37.University education, the NHS and minimum wage were made because
:03:38. > :03:42.progressive forces across the UK demanded them. It is only across the
:03:43. > :03:47.wider tax base that the wider demanded them. It is only across the
:03:48. > :03:50.of the UK that policies are advanced. I was trying to keep a
:03:51. > :04:52.straight face when advanced. I was trying to keep a
:04:53. > :06:05.has done very well. It has done well advanced. I was trying to keep a
:06:06. > :06:15.hands of the people? Compared to Alec Thomson, Nigel Farage... Not so
:06:16. > :06:19.long ago, there was a Tory majority in Scotland and this idea that all
:06:20. > :06:26.you need to do is vote independence and somehow a socialist Scotland
:06:27. > :06:31.will emerge is bogus. He is saying he will get the government you vote
:06:32. > :06:36.for. People in the independent campaign believe that and it is
:06:37. > :06:39.nonsense. Opinion polls on the way that UKIP is performing in Scotland,
:06:40. > :06:43.that is a right-wing vote in Scotland and if we don't watch out
:06:44. > :06:49.the conditions that are created for an independent country might allow
:06:50. > :06:53.that to return. Independence is the beginning of a campaign for
:06:54. > :06:57.reshaping our political landscape. There are more dividing lines than
:06:58. > :07:02.one in Scotland. In all those other debates, we might be on the same
:07:03. > :07:06.site. What I take today's debate as a signal is the parties campaigning
:07:07. > :07:12.for a no vote and increasingly taking seriously the prospect of not
:07:13. > :07:17.win this referendum. The people of this Scotland will vote yes. That is
:07:18. > :07:26.an intriguing perspective. The yes vote is beginning. Do you accept
:07:27. > :07:31.that the yes vote is catching up? There are opinion polls all over the
:07:32. > :07:37.place at the moment. It depends who you look at. That is your opinion, I
:07:38. > :07:43.don't necessarily agree with that. When we get nearer the date and when
:07:44. > :07:47.people go to the ballots, that is when people will get serious about
:07:48. > :07:53.this. I think people have got a lot to lose in this. It will be at that
:07:54. > :08:00.point, when we get closer to the date of the referendum. It ceases to
:08:01. > :08:03.be an abstract concept. It becomes a real possibility. We can do it in
:08:04. > :08:12.the real world. It is exciting and scary. The UK government your party
:08:13. > :08:20.leaders have tight hard. There is to be new figures that to the bank the
:08:21. > :08:24.economic prospect. We had a chance refusing the idea of a shared pound
:08:25. > :08:32.and yet still, the yes camp seems to be coming up. I have no faith in
:08:33. > :08:38.opinion polls. What you think is happening on the ground? I think
:08:39. > :08:42.people are focused on what their decision will be on that day. I
:08:43. > :08:47.believe it'll be closer than some people expect it to be. What is your
:08:48. > :08:53.party and the government of a party needs to do? We need to keep our
:08:54. > :08:57.nerve, make sure we continue to talk up the positive side of the United
:08:58. > :09:01.union which is what we have been trying to do and make sure the
:09:02. > :09:06.people of Scotland know the union still has a lot to offer them.
:09:07. > :09:13.Better Together has been in interesting aspect. Sadly, one thing
:09:14. > :09:17.that has been short in this campaign is the willingness of the business
:09:18. > :09:27.community and academic community to persist about in that. It is made
:09:28. > :09:32.difficult for them. I think that is a mistake. We should have been
:09:33. > :09:38.encouraging people to participate. Based isn't just for politicians. I
:09:39. > :09:47.belated business for Scotland has got a massive membership in growing
:09:48. > :09:50.recent -- weekly. We have seen the meltdown in the CBA when this
:09:51. > :09:57.position was laughable. They ever in a real mess. Alex Johnson wouldn't
:09:58. > :10:08.back the Better Together campaign. He avoided the question. He said he
:10:09. > :10:11.wouldn't support it in a clear way. The fact is, we have an opportunity
:10:12. > :10:16.to make a huge difference to the future of Scotland. This is a once
:10:17. > :10:26.in a lifetime opportunity. Thank you. Stewart 's badge says yes and
:10:27. > :10:30.your badge says no. I'm joined here in the studio for
:10:31. > :10:37.the duration of the programme by the commentator Alf Young. Good
:10:38. > :10:41.afternoon. Thank you for coming in. Interesting to hear that discussion.
:10:42. > :10:45.As Brian was pointing out, we can guess how the vote will go in
:10:46. > :10:51.Parliament this afternoon. Patrick Harvey is talking about it being in
:10:52. > :10:55.exciting and scary prospect. I don't know if the debate is going to be
:10:56. > :11:01.either exciting prospect. I suspect it since it is a Tory motion and the
:11:02. > :11:09.listeners SNP amendment we know how it will end. Let's hear that debate
:11:10. > :11:16.now. Here is Annabel Goldie from the Scottish Conservatives.
:11:17. > :11:20.I look forward to their contributions to this debate. This
:11:21. > :11:24.union is supported by people with no political views and opinion polls
:11:25. > :11:30.confirm that across Scotland a majority of people support and want
:11:31. > :11:37.to stay within the UK. We just in question to pose is why? Why in 2014
:11:38. > :11:42.is there such broad support for a structure which was conceived over
:11:43. > :11:46.300 years ago? To answer that we need to look at the what. What is
:11:47. > :11:51.this partnership, what does it enable Scotland to do? Like any
:11:52. > :11:56.other partnership it offers twin attractions will stop it lets us
:11:57. > :12:03.share talent, maximise opportunity, in times of challenges St Brides the
:12:04. > :12:10.burden of risk. Together we have fought against and continue to fight
:12:11. > :12:14.against terrorism, together we faced the ceiling challenge of recession.
:12:15. > :12:18.It is worth remembering the UK Treasury had a fine nearly ?50
:12:19. > :12:22.billion to bailout the banks including Royal Bank of Scotland and
:12:23. > :12:28.the bank of Scotland. It also had provide guaranteed measures equates
:12:29. > :12:34.into ?275 billion for the Royal Bank alone. That has not been negative.
:12:35. > :12:40.That is a godsend. In the 21st century, if it is defined by any one
:12:41. > :12:46.characteristic... Certainly. With the member not also agreed that the
:12:47. > :12:56.US government also contributed to the bailout of both the banks to the
:12:57. > :13:03.tune of ?180 billion. I'm merely indicating the use of port of the
:13:04. > :13:08.Treasury and saying that is an important dimension of stability.
:13:09. > :13:13.Can I also point out that in this global world, in which we live, a
:13:14. > :13:19.world only as distant as your mobile phone, your iPad or your tablet,
:13:20. > :13:24.this is a world we will be able to influence. Not a exercise in ancient
:13:25. > :13:28.and colonial control but to be at the heart of international
:13:29. > :13:32.influence, policy direction and decision-making. To promote
:13:33. > :13:37.international security, global peace, protection of democratic
:13:38. > :13:42.freedoms, protection of the planet, to find trading partners, to support
:13:43. > :13:47.business and create jobs. Our United Kingdom partnership allows us in
:13:48. > :13:51.Scotland to do that. We add in the G7 and G8 groups, we are one of the
:13:52. > :13:56.five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council. We are an
:13:57. > :14:01.elite member of NATO and we have one of the top three countries in the
:14:02. > :14:06.EU. In this global aids, we need that global reach and as part of the
:14:07. > :14:14.UK we have it. A separate Scotland can't replicate that. Consider this,
:14:15. > :14:19.the UK employs 14,000 people in 267 embassies, high commissions,
:14:20. > :14:22.consulates in 154 countries and 12 overseas territories around the
:14:23. > :14:31.world. You can't move abroad without the reassuring sign of the union
:14:32. > :14:36.Jack. I think that is a sad reflection of the gravity of this
:14:37. > :14:42.debate. The UK internationally is defending Scots whiskey against
:14:43. > :14:44.counterfeit, excessive taxation, UK internationally is defending Scott
:14:45. > :14:49.was the against trade barriers and other restrictions. Scottish
:14:50. > :14:56.businesses benefits from the active support of UK trade and investment.
:14:57. > :15:00.Last year alone, UK trade and investment helped nearly 2000 Scotch
:15:01. > :15:05.businesses to trade with other countries. In a global world, we are
:15:06. > :15:13.plugged in where it matters and a separate Scotland, however well
:15:14. > :15:17.intended, can't create that scale. Very importantly, we also deliver to
:15:18. > :15:23.those less fortunate than us. Last year, the UK gave over ?11.4 billion
:15:24. > :15:26.of international development spending, the second-largest donor.
:15:27. > :15:34.Impressively, the Westminster Government has increased spending to
:15:35. > :15:38.0.7%. It is the first G8 country to meet this target. A separate
:15:39. > :15:44.Scotland cannot match that level of contribution. In a global world,
:15:45. > :15:49.that United Kingdom presence and influence are what I want to be part
:15:50. > :15:54.of, it is immensely positive, very important, something to celebrate
:15:55. > :15:59.and something to be proud of, and in a separate Scotland I would not have
:16:00. > :16:07.it. Deputy Presiding Officer, I for 1am not jacking in the union Jack.
:16:08. > :16:15.-- I for 1am not. I have never regarded myself, at least not for a
:16:16. > :16:19.very long time, as being in the van of youthful opinion, but I have been
:16:20. > :16:23.visiting schools, taking part in debates, and the evidence coming
:16:24. > :16:25.through is overwhelmingly young people in schools and university
:16:26. > :16:32.support the United Kingdom. Why is that? I think, to them, the UK
:16:33. > :16:39.partnership is positive, relevant to Scotland, and in their global world,
:16:40. > :16:43.it is a partnership with huge significance. Let me finish the
:16:44. > :16:47.point. With a population of 5 million people, we are not going to
:16:48. > :16:50.be at these top tables. Not only does Scotland lose out on that
:16:51. > :16:56.influence, but others will make these strategic local decisions. She
:16:57. > :17:00.mentions the opinion of young people. Which she accept that young
:17:01. > :17:04.people are enthusiastic about being in the European Union and that is a
:17:05. > :17:11.key way forward for the UK and Scotland? I'm sure they are, about a
:17:12. > :17:15.range of issues. At the moment we are in the European Union, so they
:17:16. > :17:22.can be there if they so desire. Presiding Officer, from the age of
:17:23. > :17:30.11 I did not grow up beside an ordnance factory and I watched
:17:31. > :17:33.regular naval presence whilst being acutely conscious of defence.
:17:34. > :17:40.Defence is linked to the global world I have been describing. The UK
:17:41. > :17:49.is a major presence in NATO. It has had a global reach. She says that
:17:50. > :17:56.she grew up in the West of Scotland, and I wonder, when her speech is
:17:57. > :18:00.going to refer to the injuring intergenerational poverty the United
:18:01. > :18:06.Kingdom has resided over on her own backyard in the West of Scotland? In
:18:07. > :18:09.the West of Scotland, I have been fortunate to see a very impressive
:18:10. > :18:13.economic transformation from industrial and traditional
:18:14. > :18:16.industries to the high-tech industries which arrived at
:18:17. > :18:24.Inverclyde at the end of the 20th century. On defence, Scottish
:18:25. > :18:31.regiments are an integrated part of the British forces. At a time when
:18:32. > :18:36.numbers are decreasing, army numbers will increase in Scotland by 800,
:18:37. > :18:42.and that is the highest level since 2007. I want to make progress, I
:18:43. > :18:44.have been generous with my interventions. In procurement,
:18:45. > :18:48.defence for Scotland means thousands of defence jobs, jobs which are
:18:49. > :18:56.generally well paid, skilled positions I arrange of companies,
:18:57. > :19:04.from specialists. -- from arrange of companies. A legal challenge to the
:19:05. > :19:08.Scottish Government's policy on minimum alcohol pricing has been
:19:09. > :19:11.referred to a European court by the Court of session. For more on this I
:19:12. > :19:17.am joined by our home affairs correspondent Reevel Alderson. Good
:19:18. > :19:23.afternoon. First of all, let's look at the story behind this. Why is the
:19:24. > :19:27.Court of session referring this? It seems as if we are going back into
:19:28. > :19:30.the mists of time, but the Scottish Government has been very keen for a
:19:31. > :19:37.number of years to bring in minimum alcohol pricing, and they passed
:19:38. > :19:46.legislation in May 2012 setting down what that minimum price would be,
:19:47. > :19:49.50p per unit of alcohol. There has been a series of challenges to
:19:50. > :19:54.this, most notably from the Scotch Whisky Association, which says this
:19:55. > :20:01.measure would be contrary to European Union law, in effect, it
:20:02. > :20:08.would be a restraint on trade, and they say that is not allowed. They
:20:09. > :20:12.went to the Court of session and the judge said this measure is all
:20:13. > :20:21.right, it is compliant with European Union law, they then appealed and
:20:22. > :20:30.there is a hearing where they argued it should be decided by Europe.
:20:31. > :20:36.Today, the judgement of the Court of session has said this is a matter
:20:37. > :20:46.which should be decided upon by a European court, the Court of Justice
:20:47. > :20:53.of the European Union. This is a court of the European communities,
:20:54. > :20:56.and it would decide whether the Scottish Government's legislative
:20:57. > :21:01.proposal is compliant with European Union law. This is a process that
:21:02. > :21:06.will further delay the implementation of this policy. What
:21:07. > :21:10.kind of timescale are we looking at? You mentioned we are looking back
:21:11. > :21:18.into the mists of time when it started, what are we looking at now?
:21:19. > :21:25.They do say the crests of Justice, the mill of justice is exceedingly
:21:26. > :21:30.slow, and I don't think this will be a fast turnaround. We are looking at
:21:31. > :21:34.at least 15 months, possibly two years before the court in Luxembourg
:21:35. > :21:37.pronounces on this, then it comes back to the Court of session in
:21:38. > :21:44.Edinburgh and they have to decide on the basis of the advice they have
:21:45. > :21:53.got from Luxembourg whether or not the Scotch Whisky Association case
:21:54. > :21:58.is approved or not and whether this policy is compliant. There is then a
:21:59. > :22:02.further possibility of another appeal so I don't think we'll see at
:22:03. > :22:11.any soon. What kind of reactions have we been seeing? By coincidence,
:22:12. > :22:14.Alex Neil is in Brussels, the Health Secretary who is driving this, and
:22:15. > :22:20.he told BBC Scotland the government is disappointed by this ruling,
:22:21. > :22:28.frustrated it is going to take a further number of months if not
:22:29. > :22:32.years, he says it must be tested by European law, and if that is what is
:22:33. > :22:36.going to happen it is fair enough. The Scotch Whisky Association have
:22:37. > :22:39.said all along they wanted it to be tested by a European court because
:22:40. > :22:47.they think it is not compliant with European legislation, so they are
:22:48. > :22:56.happy, but an alcohol organisation that promotes responsible drinking
:22:57. > :22:58.said that every week, 20 people in Scotland are dying because of
:22:59. > :23:04.alcohol misuse and problems with alcohol, and as a result of this,
:23:05. > :23:08.that death toll will continue, the cause they say bringing in minimum
:23:09. > :23:14.unit pricing will help tackle Scotland's terrible record with
:23:15. > :23:16.alcohol. Thank you. This has been a controversial policy, but
:23:17. > :23:20.frustrating for the Scottish Government to have another legal
:23:21. > :23:25.setback. Absolutely. If it takes this kind of time, two years in
:23:26. > :23:29.Europe, possibly, coming back, going to the Supreme Court, you're
:23:30. > :23:35.beginning to think, will we see anything happen on this issue this
:23:36. > :23:39.side of 2020? It is getting into that kind of timescale. For
:23:40. > :23:43.legislation that was passed at the beginning of the decade to be
:23:44. > :23:47.struggling to get an outcome at the end of the decade it is not exactly
:23:48. > :23:54.fast and effective policy-making. With an election intervening. Some
:23:55. > :23:57.people watching this will think, the Scottish Parliament has voted on
:23:58. > :24:02.this, it is the democratic will of Parliament, is it perhaps right that
:24:03. > :24:07.an issue like this is mired in legal argument and the courts? We are for
:24:08. > :24:13.now part of the European Union, and it is all about free trade, so if
:24:14. > :24:17.there are issues about a particular approach to one alcoholic drink, it
:24:18. > :24:21.is not only going to affect whiskey, but it is the important one in
:24:22. > :24:29.Scottish terms, because it is an important and successful industry,
:24:30. > :24:34.if it feels discriminated against, and it has that in other markets,
:24:35. > :24:40.local markets in the Far East, they will preferentially treat rice
:24:41. > :24:47.alcohol derivatives against whiskey to keep it out of their market. It
:24:48. > :24:53.is a long, seething issue for the Scotch Whisky Association. Trying to
:24:54. > :24:57.work it out in a European context, without going through the European
:24:58. > :25:01.legal system and saying, is this compliant with being in a free trade
:25:02. > :25:09.area, it would be open to challenge anyway. It has probably got to go
:25:10. > :25:13.through this process. The irony is whiskey is not really targeted by
:25:14. > :25:17.this, what the Scottish Government is desperately trying to target is
:25:18. > :25:22.cheap cider, cheap vodka, cheap bottles of wine, Chuck was in
:25:23. > :25:25.damage. They are not really targeting whiskey at all, because
:25:26. > :25:34.only the cheapest brand of whiskey would be affected by this. Thanks
:25:35. > :25:36.very much. A short time ago we were covering the debate on the
:25:37. > :25:41.independence referendum in the chamber. We heard from the
:25:42. > :25:46.Conservatives. Let's watch the response from the Deputy first
:25:47. > :25:53.Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. The Tories were wrong in the last
:25:54. > :25:59.referendum, not just a bit wrong but 100%, comprehensively wrong. And
:26:00. > :26:03.yet, despite that, they expect people to believe them know when
:26:04. > :26:07.they say it is best to leave powers of the economy, taxation, the
:26:08. > :26:14.welfare state, energy and defence in the hands of their friends at
:26:15. > :26:18.Westminster. Will the member agree that it was a Tory led government at
:26:19. > :26:22.Westminster in 2012 which delivered the Scotland act giving this
:26:23. > :26:30.parliament even greater powers? If Annabel Goldie thinks the Scotland
:26:31. > :26:33.act 2012 is great powers, I think it tells all of us we can expect
:26:34. > :26:38.nothing from these parties when it comes to more powers in the event of
:26:39. > :26:41.voting against independence. The truth is, the Tories are wrong in
:26:42. > :26:46.this referendum, as they were in the last one. The tragedy, if you're a
:26:47. > :26:51.Labour Lib Dem supporter is only this time, the Tories have dragooned
:26:52. > :26:57.the leadership of those parties as well. The reality, which I believe
:26:58. > :27:03.is obvious to decent Labour supporters the length and breadth of
:27:04. > :27:06.our country is, the Tories are the living embodiment of the democratic
:27:07. > :27:10.case for Scotland being an independent country. Why should the
:27:11. > :27:19.party that in the last four general elections managed to win zero, one,
:27:20. > :27:25.one, and won seats in Scotland be in any position of power in Scotland?
:27:26. > :27:30.They have no democratic mandate to govern Scotland. For half of the
:27:31. > :27:34.time we have been governed by Westminster administrations with no
:27:35. > :27:37.mandate in Scotland, parties that had been comprehensively rejected by
:27:38. > :27:45.the people of this country. It is a democratic outrage. If we vote no,
:27:46. > :27:49.we have no guarantee the same thing will not happen again in the general
:27:50. > :27:51.election, because whatever Labour say, they cannot guarantee we
:27:52. > :27:54.election, because whatever Labour not end up with another Tory
:27:55. > :27:59.Government. Scotland has voted Labour only to end up with the
:28:00. > :28:52.Tories too often in the past to have the wool
:28:53. > :28:54.Tories too often in the past to have rule makes me... It acts people to
:28:55. > :28:56.fill in the rest. Here is the answer, more and more Labour voters
:28:57. > :30:18.are coming up with in Scotland, answer, more and more Labour voters
:30:19. > :30:24.independence as an impossibility to laugh at. Clear they are losing
:30:25. > :30:27.momentum, they are losing the argument and they are rattled the
:30:28. > :30:34.people of Scotland are ready to vote yes.
:30:35. > :30:39.I agree with that. You have pre-empted what I was about to say.
:30:40. > :30:44.There are many reasons the no campaign is in deep trouble and the
:30:45. > :30:49.yes campaign is gaining ground. I want to focus on three of them
:30:50. > :30:53.today. Firstly, people are not daft. That is something the no campaign
:30:54. > :30:57.ever factored into their calculations. They see through the
:30:58. > :31:01.scaremongering and they don't take kindly to the threat. Above all,
:31:02. > :31:06.people know the ties that matter between our nations, family,
:31:07. > :31:12.culture, history don't depend on Westminster. We only have to listen
:31:13. > :31:16.to the words of the president of independent Ireland when he made a
:31:17. > :31:21.state visit to the UK a few weeks ago. Our nation share a unique
:31:22. > :31:26.proximity, we share a common narrative woven through the
:31:27. > :31:30.connections between our people and heritage. Words that demonstrate
:31:31. > :31:34.through the example of independent Ireland the political independence
:31:35. > :31:38.and a strong enduring social union go hand-in-hand. People know now the
:31:39. > :31:47.no campaign's position on currency is bluff and bluster. We have got a
:31:48. > :31:52.report today describing it as confused logic, inadequate economics
:31:53. > :32:00.and subterfuge to frighten the Scottish people. They currency bluff
:32:01. > :32:04.has been blown, it is in tatters. The question being asked now is if
:32:05. > :32:10.people can't believe no with currency, why should they believe
:32:11. > :32:13.them on anything else? The second reason the no campaign is in
:32:14. > :32:25.trouble, people know we need independence to put ourselves in the
:32:26. > :32:30.driving seat of our future. It is only by voting yes that we can make
:32:31. > :32:33.sure we don't get saddled with government we have rejected, it is
:32:34. > :32:39.only by voting yes we can secure our place in Europe. We can't escape the
:32:40. > :32:45.risk of being pulled out of Europe by the UK driven politics of the
:32:46. > :32:52.Westminster party for stop -- by the UKIP driven politics. It is only by
:32:53. > :32:57.voting yes that we can stop the dismantling of our welfare state. I
:32:58. > :33:03.had to check wasn't seeing things when I read the Labour amendment
:33:04. > :33:07.today. The legal amendments talked about pooling, sharing and
:33:08. > :33:11.redistributing resources. Then you read stuff like that you have to ask
:33:12. > :33:15.yourself if the Scottish Labour leadership is living on the same
:33:16. > :33:22.planet N same country as the rest of us. If Labour really thinks that ?6
:33:23. > :33:28.billion of cuts to social security, 100,000 more kids being pushed into
:33:29. > :33:31.poverty and a 400% rise in demand for food banks represents
:33:32. > :33:39.redistribution, then we have taken a wrong turn somewhere. The best way,
:33:40. > :33:45.the only way to protect the institutions we cared about, what
:33:46. > :33:48.could be described as the best of British institutions, is to get the
:33:49. > :33:54.power to decide for ourselves what happens to them. We have proved that
:33:55. > :34:00.with the NHS, we need independence to protect the welfare state. Can I
:34:01. > :34:05.say to Annabel Goldie, I would rather, much rather, have an end to
:34:06. > :34:14.child poverty and a seat on the EU when security council or weapons of
:34:15. > :34:19.mass destruction any day. -- the UN Security Council. The third reason
:34:20. > :34:26.the yes campaign is gaining ground is this, the more people hear the
:34:27. > :34:32.doom mongers saying we can't, the more people will say loudly and
:34:33. > :34:37.clearly, yes we can, we are the 14th richest country in the world, we're
:34:38. > :34:41.blessed with natural resources, we have world-class universities and
:34:42. > :34:44.industries, there is no doubt we can be independent and the more the no
:34:45. > :34:48.campaign questions that the more they insult our intelligence and
:34:49. > :34:53.damage their own credibility for stop the question in this debate is
:34:54. > :34:57.how we rich enough to be independent? The answer to that
:34:58. > :35:01.question is an emphatic yes. The real question is how we use our
:35:02. > :35:08.wealth as a country to create the kind of economy and society... I'm
:35:09. > :35:16.afraid, the mentor is finishing. The member is closing. A country that
:35:17. > :35:20.can protect things that matter like our NHS and our welfare state. A
:35:21. > :35:26.country that is confident, was a tiff, outward looking. One that
:35:27. > :35:31.takes responsibilities for our own future and isn't driven by the
:35:32. > :35:41.politics of Nigel Farage and UKIP. I am afraid you must close. We have a
:35:42. > :35:45.prosperous independent country. The only way to secure that is to vote
:35:46. > :35:52.yes and I move the amendment in mining. That was Nicola Sturgeon.
:35:53. > :35:59.You can catch more of that debate on democracy live.
:36:00. > :36:01.Some of Scotland's charities have been warning MSPs on Holyrood's
:36:02. > :36:05.Welfare Reform Committee that there is a clear link between benefit
:36:06. > :36:08.changes and the increased use of food banks. But a director for the
:36:09. > :36:12.Department for Work and Pensions said the rise in the use of food
:36:13. > :36:14.banks was as a result of "people maximising their economic
:36:15. > :36:21.opportunities" and not because of tougher benefit rules.
:36:22. > :36:30.In terms of our own experiences, it seems the sanctions is a major cause
:36:31. > :36:38.of referrals. In January to March we had to signpost 1300 clients to food
:36:39. > :36:41.banks. That is about 150 of our clients. We have done a recent
:36:42. > :36:50.survey of advisers and they found that 90% of them agreed to
:36:51. > :36:56.sanctions. Both national evidence and on the ground evidence is
:36:57. > :37:04.pointing towards welfare reform. In Scotland, what I was struck with,
:37:05. > :37:07.was the broad agreement as to the causes of surgeries and food bank
:37:08. > :37:11.use and it isn't credible to say there is not a link between welfare
:37:12. > :37:16.changes and food bank useful stop Oxon doesn't do direct delivery, we
:37:17. > :37:25.work with partners. They are very clear, they have given evidence
:37:26. > :37:31.recently showing 77,000 Scots used their services last year. One of the
:37:32. > :37:41.key reasons was that was welfare delays. Third, was welfare changes.
:37:42. > :37:45.If you take the figures produced a few weeks ago saying there are a
:37:46. > :37:54.million people who've used food banks. We had about a third of the
:37:55. > :37:59.whole food bank sector. If you gross that three million and divided by
:38:00. > :38:05.you -- weekly usage you get a figure of about 60,000 that is being
:38:06. > :38:09.generous. If I told you that in Canada the population there is half
:38:10. > :38:20.of the United Kingdom, 32 million. The weekly use is 700,000, not
:38:21. > :38:24.60,000, 700,000. If I told you in Germany the equivalent of the trust
:38:25. > :38:29.reckoned in 2009, they were helping 1 million Germans a week, not
:38:30. > :38:36.60,000, 1 million Germans a week and the latest figures are 1.5 million
:38:37. > :38:44.Germans are weak. Germany isn't a welfare wasteland. That makes me
:38:45. > :38:49.think that supply is the issue that is driving that. Why would put
:38:50. > :38:55.people respond in a different way to rich people would respond to their
:38:56. > :39:01.being incentives or things you can claim? This is a supply led growth
:39:02. > :39:04.going on. It will continue to be growing over the years ahead
:39:05. > :39:15.whatever the path of welfare policies. We live in a society where
:39:16. > :39:19.there are poor people and rich people and people will maximise
:39:20. > :39:27.their economic choices. That is just how economies work for stop it is a
:39:28. > :39:33.mistake to see sanctions as a punitive measure.
:39:34. > :39:48.My experience is many benefits recipients welcome the jolt that the
:39:49. > :39:51.sanction can give them. Now to Prime Minister's Questions
:39:52. > :39:55.and the Labour leader Ed Miliband said the UK government had given
:39:56. > :39:59.privileged city investors a golden ticket to buy Royal Mail shares and
:40:00. > :40:04.then sold them onto a profit. David Cameron insisted the policy was a
:40:05. > :40:08.success. He also criticised comments Alex Salmond made about President
:40:09. > :40:18.Putin. I am raising issue about the health
:40:19. > :40:24.of tax. The reason this matters is because...
:40:25. > :40:33.Order, order. This is incredibly tedious. People can calm down, take
:40:34. > :40:41.a tablet if necessary. Ed Miliband. Shares were sold for one seven
:40:42. > :40:48.billion and are now worth 2.7 billion. Who cashed in? Long-term
:40:49. > :40:53.investors. They made killing of hundreds of thousands of pounds in
:40:54. > :40:57.weeks. Yesterday, the representative of the bank that sold the shares
:40:58. > :41:03.said there was an understanding, with those investors. He said there
:41:04. > :41:13.was any understanding, it is on the record. Why were they allowed to
:41:14. > :41:20.make a fast buck? He talks about ripping off the tax when it was he
:41:21. > :41:23.who left in 11% budget deficit after the biggest banking bailout in
:41:24. > :41:27.Britain's history. I have to say that these are exactly the argument
:41:28. > :41:38.that Michael foot made about the privatisation of the other
:41:39. > :41:42.companies. It pleases the backbenchers, it excites the trade
:41:43. > :41:47.unions but it is a silly meaningless. It's easy to recommit
:41:48. > :41:52.into renationalising the Post Office? Of course not. It is plain
:41:53. > :41:59.to the gallery because he can't talk about the success of our economy. --
:42:00. > :42:02.it is playing to the gallery for stop it is one rule for the postal
:42:03. > :42:08.workers and another for the headphones. They have been very coy
:42:09. > :42:16.about who runs the hedge funds. It is the Chancellor's best man. Why is
:42:17. > :42:21.it, it is one rule if you deliver the Chancellor's best man speech and
:42:22. > :42:26.another rule if you deliver the Chancellor's post. He is painting
:42:27. > :42:31.himself into the red corner bike only talking about issues that are
:42:32. > :42:35.successive for the government that will appeal to the left wing behind
:42:36. > :42:41.him and the people who want to play the politics of envy. That is what
:42:42. > :42:45.is happening in can see it. Nothing to save other long-term economic
:42:46. > :42:53.plan measures Britain is on the rise and Labour is the slide. Ukrainians
:42:54. > :42:57.in Scotland votes to Alex Salmond expressing astonishment at the First
:42:58. > :43:02.Minister statement that he admired President Putin. Will the Prime
:43:03. > :43:10.Minister support the statements of the Scottish Ukrainian community in
:43:11. > :43:17.condemning those statements which support a regime which repressive
:43:18. > :43:24.its own minority and silences its critics. I agree with the honourable
:43:25. > :43:28.lady. I think what Alex Salmond said was a major error of judgement. All
:43:29. > :43:34.of us in this house should be supporting Ukrainian desire to be a
:43:35. > :43:37.sovereign independent country and to have the respect of the
:43:38. > :43:45.international community and party leaders for their ambition. Let's
:43:46. > :43:49.stay at Westminster now. Our correspondent is on college green.
:43:50. > :43:54.Nigel Farage has loomed large in Westminster today even though he is
:43:55. > :44:02.not in the House of Commons. It is an interesting one this one. In
:44:03. > :44:06.under a month's time they will be the European elections and the
:44:07. > :44:13.opinion polls are correct the UK Independence party seems to have the
:44:14. > :44:17.majority support, all the majority to think that with a caution. UKIP
:44:18. > :44:23.is increasing its support well be support for some of the other
:44:24. > :44:28.parties is going down. The decision by Nigel Farage not a contest that
:44:29. > :44:32.by-election in new work in the Midlands has pleased some
:44:33. > :44:37.conservatives. The spectre of UKIP as far as some MPs are concerned is
:44:38. > :44:49.the elephant in the room. We will be discussing that in a moment. I am
:44:50. > :44:52.joined by three MPs from Scotland. I will begin a view first because the
:44:53. > :44:56.issue that dominated Prime Minister's Questions time was the
:44:57. > :45:00.Royal Mail, the sell-off of part of the Royal Mail. With hindsight
:45:01. > :45:09.guided your government, your coalition government, your secretary
:45:10. > :45:13.cell you Royal Mail too cheaply? The portal thing about the privatisation
:45:14. > :45:15.is they need to deliver the universal service obligation, six
:45:16. > :45:20.days a week. With the benefit of hindsight, it is easy to say the
:45:21. > :45:24.government could have got more money from it, but that is only with the
:45:25. > :45:28.benefit of hindsight. Every privatisation that went through,
:45:29. > :45:35.that has been a significant issue. When Labour sold up a defence
:45:36. > :45:39.company, it was worth ten times more after privatisation. With the
:45:40. > :45:43.benefit of hindsight, the government could have got more, but that is
:45:44. > :45:46.wonderful when you deal with the stock market. If you could predict
:45:47. > :45:53.how the stock market goes you would be rich. I can see you are pleased
:45:54. > :45:56.the universal postal suffrage has been maintained, particularly for
:45:57. > :46:02.parole constituencies, but the government paid advisers are a lot
:46:03. > :46:05.of money, surely if you pay millions of pounds in fees, you expect them
:46:06. > :46:12.to perhaps say, you're pitching this too low. The government to the
:46:13. > :46:16.professional advice it received, and as I say, hindsight is a wonderful
:46:17. > :46:20.thing. If you could predict the stock market you would be
:46:21. > :46:24.fantastically rich. Every previous privatisation has had similar
:46:25. > :46:32.issues, the important thing is the universal service obligation is in
:46:33. > :46:35.law. Ian Murray, no doubt you will agree with your leader that it went
:46:36. > :46:41.to cheaply. You also have to remember this coalition government
:46:42. > :46:46.did something your party did not manage to do. We never wanted to
:46:47. > :46:49.privatise the Royal mail. The 2010 general election manifesto said we
:46:50. > :46:56.would keep it in public hands stop the Prime Minister lied about that.
:46:57. > :47:00.Alan is putting on a brave face. We have lost ?1 billion to the
:47:01. > :47:08.taxpayer. The government took the advice of professional advisers, one
:47:09. > :47:13.of those, we have found out, they were on the priority investors less
:47:14. > :47:17.as well, the 17 companies given nearly three quarters of ?1 billion
:47:18. > :47:23.worth of shares. They sold within 24 hours, making a 40% profit. They
:47:24. > :47:28.were advising on the price, the price was too low, it was the lowest
:47:29. > :47:31.of all the prices, they lost the taxpayer ?1 billion, and it is
:47:32. > :47:38.unacceptable for somebody to be advising on price, to then be a
:47:39. > :47:43.priority investor and then take the money and run. Questions are piling
:47:44. > :47:47.up. When Peter Mandelson was business and trade secretary, I
:47:48. > :47:51.thought he wanted to sell off part of the Royal mail but he thought it
:47:52. > :47:57.was going to be too difficult? He did want to sell part of the Royal
:47:58. > :48:02.Mail, but things have changed since then, the Royal Mail made profit,
:48:03. > :48:06.the regulatory environment was improved, the pension deficit was on
:48:07. > :48:11.the public books. ?20 billion worth is sitting at the Treasury. The
:48:12. > :48:13.context has changed. Margaret Thatcher also said it would be too
:48:14. > :48:18.difficult. This coalition government have sold it to cheaply. It was a
:48:19. > :48:23.national asset that belonged to everybody, and a serious question
:48:24. > :48:30.needs to be raised about why people buying the shares were also advising
:48:31. > :48:34.on the price. That is surely not right and there are transparency
:48:35. > :48:39.issues. My queer, what would happen in an independent Scotland? We have
:48:40. > :48:43.a part privatised Royal Mail, what would happen in an independent
:48:44. > :48:47.Scotland? We have made it clear after independence we will
:48:48. > :48:51.renationalise those parts of the Royal Mail that are within Scotland.
:48:52. > :48:56.We believe it should never have been privatised, all that is coming out
:48:57. > :48:59.about the way it was sold at to that. We have seen since the
:49:00. > :49:04.privatisation that prices have gone up, job losses, despite what Alan
:49:05. > :49:11.says about universal service there is still real concern about survival
:49:12. > :49:14.of that. The best place for Royal Mail to be to serve the whole of
:49:15. > :49:20.Scotland is in public ownership and we are committed to taking it back
:49:21. > :49:26.into public ownership. Would that be a forced renationalisation? I'm not
:49:27. > :49:32.sure there is anything other than a forced renationalisation. Maybe they
:49:33. > :49:37.would want to sell it to us, they tell us it does not make a profit,
:49:38. > :49:40.so it should not be very expensive if that is the case, so we are
:49:41. > :49:44.committed to taking it back into public ownership, the only way to
:49:45. > :49:50.ensure we have got a service that covers the whole of Scotland. Mike
:49:51. > :49:53.says the SNP Government have committed that but they have not
:49:54. > :49:59.told us where they will get the money to do that. If they are going
:50:00. > :50:03.to have an appropriation of foreign assets, it is little wonder Alex
:50:04. > :50:09.Salmond praises Vladimir Putin. Utter nonsense. It is not an
:50:10. > :50:14.appropriation of foreign assets, they are assets within Scotland.
:50:15. > :50:17.They belong to the Scottish people and they should never have been
:50:18. > :50:22.privatised. I agree they should never have been privatised. You have
:50:23. > :50:27.to tell people how you would pay for it. The SNP plans to have a separate
:50:28. > :50:32.Royal Mail in Scotland are just complete nonsense. At present is,
:50:33. > :50:38.with one Royal Mail, people can post a letter anywhere in the country and
:50:39. > :50:44.have it delivered the next day anywhere else. Under the SNP plans
:50:45. > :50:47.there would be separate Royal Mail in Scotland, you would need to pay
:50:48. > :50:54.international postal rates, it is Daft. Let's move onto another
:50:55. > :51:01.subject, the European elections, the of UKIP. It might not be a huge
:51:02. > :51:05.story in Scotland but in the UK generally and amongst your
:51:06. > :51:12.colleagues down here, the rise of UKIP is focusing their minds. The
:51:13. > :51:17.Liberal Democrats have always been absolutely clear, we are the party
:51:18. > :51:19.that believes in Europe. Europe rings us millions of jobs and if we
:51:20. > :51:29.pull out there would be millions of jobs lost. -- rings us -- gives us.
:51:30. > :51:33.We need to make that clear. In that, the Liberal Democrat MEP has
:51:34. > :51:37.done a wonderful job representing Scotland in Europe and I would urge
:51:38. > :51:41.people to turn out and support him and the Liberal Democrats on the
:51:42. > :51:44.22nd of May because it is important we remain in Europe and we see off
:51:45. > :51:54.the campaign from UKIP and from the Conservative party. We got the plot
:51:55. > :51:59.in for your candidate. Ian Murray, either colleagues in the North of
:52:00. > :52:00.England looking uneasy? We have to make the positive case. UKIP are
:52:01. > :52:08.very and the make the positive case. UKIP are
:52:09. > :52:56.-- opposed to the EU. If anybody is make the positive case. UKIP are
:52:57. > :52:58.be a major player in Scotland, in the UK context they can shake the
:52:59. > :54:28.tree up, can they? Indeed, the UK context they can shake the
:54:29. > :54:32.positive, but I think the unfortunate thing was they were said
:54:33. > :54:35.with no context of the Ukraine, what was happening there, they were said
:54:36. > :54:44.some time ago, they are only now appearing. It looks against the
:54:45. > :54:50.context of what happened in Ukraine rather badly judged, simply because,
:54:51. > :54:59.for a government that stands for real search in the independent
:55:00. > :55:01.sovereignty of Scotland, -- reasserting the sovereignty, to be
:55:02. > :55:07.talking in any sort of glowing terms about the reader -- leader of Russia
:55:08. > :55:14.who seems to be less careful about sovereignty, it does not look too
:55:15. > :55:20.clever. Let's ask you about the Royal mail sell-off. You can bring
:55:21. > :55:24.some of your knowledge on this. We are seeing in prime ministers
:55:25. > :55:32.questions what else the northbound -- Ed Miliband was saying about city
:55:33. > :55:36.speculators pocketing money, about how George Osborne's best man was
:55:37. > :55:41.one of the advisers, is it right for the government to have this advice?
:55:42. > :55:47.In the sense that if you're going to sell a major state-owned industry,
:55:48. > :55:53.assets, you need to get advice from somewhere, and the only place to go
:55:54. > :55:57.in a market-driven economy is the city. They've gone to the city, but
:55:58. > :56:01.when you get allegations, as we did have at one point from Ian Murray,
:56:02. > :56:12.that one of the advisers was also one of the beneficiaries, of this
:56:13. > :56:15.special allocation, many of those institutions were holding onto the
:56:16. > :56:23.shares and then sold off them very quickly because the price rose so
:56:24. > :56:28.dramatically full of areas? About them -- there is questions about
:56:29. > :56:37.them having a dog into races which are conflicting. I think there is
:56:38. > :56:40.milage in this for Ed Miliband. It plays to a wider theme that has run
:56:41. > :56:45.through this programme, the independence debate, the welfare
:56:46. > :56:49.issue, there are gross inequalities in Britain and when people who don't
:56:50. > :56:59.have very much are going to a food bank looking for a bite to eat can
:57:00. > :57:03.watch city institutions making billions over what used to be a
:57:04. > :57:10.public asset, that sense of grievance and disillusion about
:57:11. > :57:16.economic inequality is fertile ground. People like Nicola
:57:17. > :57:22.Sturgeon, who was the real red in terms of her dress today rather than
:57:23. > :57:25.the man that Cameron was trying to defeat in PMQs will make use of
:57:26. > :57:30.that. Whether they have the policies to do anything about it is much the
:57:31. > :57:38.other question, because I don't see the detailed policies in the
:57:39. > :57:44.independence case from the SNP about actually making that dramatic change
:57:45. > :57:48.to inequality in our society. Let's reflate touch on the final issue,
:57:49. > :58:00.Nigel Farage deciding not to stand in the newer by-election -- Newark.
:58:01. > :58:04.Was he wise to do that? It was such a safe Tory seat that I think he
:58:05. > :58:11.looked at it and said, the kind of search I would need would be of
:58:12. > :58:16.cataclysmic proportions, and fearing he would not do that in a seat in
:58:17. > :58:20.the Midlands that he had no hinterland in, he decided against it
:58:21. > :58:23.and is going to put all his energy into emerging as the strongest force
:58:24. > :58:32.in the European elections on the 22nd of May. For the first time, he
:58:33. > :58:35.has blinked, and what we don't know is whether it will change the story
:58:36. > :58:41.about how omnipotent he is and what a great touch he has with the
:58:42. > :58:44.people. Thank you for your company here. That is all we have time for
:58:45. > :58:47.in the programme. We are back at the same time next week. Thanks for
:58:48. > :59:00.watching. It's shocking it'd happen
:59:01. > :59:05.in a public place. I don't find it funny,
:59:06. > :59:08.but I don't find it offensive. It really is vile.
:59:09. > :59:10.Shock value sells. Men are even less tolerant of women
:59:11. > :59:13.than they were before. The hatred of women.
:59:14. > :59:16.Some people are offended. Others think women
:59:17. > :59:18.should just man up. and even misogyny
:59:19. > :59:22.socially acceptable? Join me, Kirsty Wark,
:59:23. > :59:26.as I investigate...