:00:17. > :00:22.Good afternoon. Welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:00:22. > :00:28.programme. On St Andrew's Day, pickets and protests from Shetland
:00:28. > :00:33.to the borders. Scotland's public sector goes on strike. A I will be
:00:33. > :00:37.at a Hollywood where MSPs are debating the future of public
:00:37. > :00:41.sector pensions, at least those who are not on the picket line.
:00:41. > :00:46.that Westminster, where MPs assess the impact of the public sector
:00:46. > :00:52.strikes, they are also mulling over the Chancellor's gloomy predictions
:00:52. > :00:57.for the economy. Public sector services have been disrupted across
:00:57. > :01:01.Scotland as over 300,000 public- sector workers have gone astray.
:01:01. > :01:09.The SNP government is debating the issue at Holyrood this afternoon. I
:01:09. > :01:15.am joined by our business editor, Douglas Fraser. Let us put this in
:01:15. > :01:19.some context, first of all. Why are we here, that these strikes? Some
:01:19. > :01:23.18 months after coming into power, one of the things the Government is
:01:23. > :01:28.trying to do, not really related to the deficit reduction which is
:01:28. > :01:33.their main policy at the moment, they what it takes a long-term move
:01:33. > :01:37.to change the public sector pension regime, to some extent, to bring it
:01:37. > :01:42.into line with the private sector regime. Also because people are
:01:42. > :01:47.living longer and the bill is rising. They want to increase
:01:47. > :01:52.contributions from public-sector workers and that the same time, to
:01:52. > :02:00.see people working longer, very often past 60, many people retire
:02:00. > :02:06.at 60, in the public sector, and they want to shift from a final
:02:06. > :02:10.salary, to an average salary. Partly because people are not the
:02:10. > :02:16.supply on their highest earnings at the last point in their Korea.
:02:16. > :02:20.heard that the STUC was seeing they were not sure what the Government
:02:20. > :02:26.was putting forward. There have been claims from the Cabinet Office
:02:26. > :02:29.minister Francis Maude that negotiations had been ongoing well
:02:29. > :02:35.the opposition leader Ed Miliband claimed the last discussions had
:02:35. > :02:42.been on the 2nd November. Or almost everything you say about this is
:02:42. > :02:49.contentious. There may be some talks that are not formalised tops.
:02:49. > :02:52.We don't Robert that and we do not know who is right. In October they
:02:52. > :02:57.quarterback they could offer from the Government which was said to be
:02:57. > :03:02.more attractive. The unions want negotiations to go on without the
:03:02. > :03:07.Government approach to this, but in October, a less unattractive offer
:03:07. > :03:16.was put on the table, particularly for those with a pin you still to
:03:16. > :03:19.go, and slightly more generous at rules at that point might. The
:03:19. > :03:23.unions have been pushing for a stripe date, to show the anger
:03:23. > :03:33.there is within the public sector, not just on pensions but on what is
:03:33. > :03:36.
:03:36. > :03:41.happening with p, and with shedding of staff. -- with pay. In the past
:03:41. > :03:44.one or two months, it seems that formalised negotiations have broken
:03:44. > :03:52.down because people have been building towards this show of
:03:52. > :03:55.strength. On the Government's side, there is a feeling that once the
:03:55. > :03:59.unions have let off some steam, the Government hopes to get back to
:03:59. > :04:04.negotiations. The unions will have made their point, it is a point
:04:04. > :04:09.they can choose to make again at the negotiations can continue.
:04:09. > :04:14.UK government says it is trying to fill this pensions gap. It is a
:04:14. > :04:18.pretty hard sell they are trying to do, and it is a tough one to make
:04:18. > :04:25.people accept. Why do they say it is necessary for these changes to
:04:25. > :04:30.happen? The key reason is, people are living longer, and everyone can
:04:30. > :04:35.agree that is a good thing, but it means people who retire can be
:04:35. > :04:40.expected to draw pensions and can be expected to live longer and a
:04:40. > :04:46.draw patience for longer. That is a much more expensive proposition --
:04:46. > :04:50.draw attentions for much longer. There is some democratic change
:04:50. > :04:55.which means a decreasing number of working people, paying taxes. Many
:04:55. > :04:59.of these pensions are not funded. With the exception of local
:04:59. > :05:03.authority Scotland workers who have a pension pot which is invested
:05:03. > :05:06.most of the others are relying on a promise which future taxpayers will
:05:07. > :05:10.have to meet. And in order to draw back on the commitments that have
:05:10. > :05:16.been made for future generations to pay for people who have yet to
:05:16. > :05:20.retire, the government is trying to get the cost of the system down,
:05:20. > :05:24.and more balance with those currently in the system. But there
:05:24. > :05:28.is no fun to contribute to, those making contributions are simply
:05:28. > :05:32.making it into the Treasury accounts and that money is being
:05:32. > :05:36.dissipated throughout all public services. And how do you think this
:05:36. > :05:42.will play out in the future? You said you thought the unions wanted
:05:42. > :05:46.to show their muscle. Could there be more strikes on the horizon?
:05:46. > :05:51.depends how the unions feel about that. Clearly they have got a lot
:05:51. > :05:55.of support but they are getting some brickbats from the public, who
:05:55. > :06:05.are inconvenienced by this. It is not just about technical issues,
:06:05. > :06:09.
:06:09. > :06:13.pensions, a cruel rates, -- accrual rates. It is about the gap not
:06:13. > :06:17.being filled, and people having to work harder. And there is a salary
:06:17. > :06:21.freeze at the moment which will become of 1% cut for two years
:06:21. > :06:25.after it is finished, and indeed there is a change proposed in the
:06:25. > :06:31.autumn statement yesterday so that you get differential rates of pay.
:06:31. > :06:35.At the moment if you are in the police, fire, the civil service
:06:35. > :06:39.around the country, you get the same rate for the same job. That
:06:39. > :06:42.may change, so that places with different labour markets and
:06:42. > :06:47.different wages will be paid less than London and the South East.
:06:47. > :06:52.That might be a good time. It might bring jobs to parts of Scotland,
:06:52. > :07:01.the north-east of England and Northern Ireland. But it is quite
:07:01. > :07:05.contagious and provocative, also. - - contentious. The industrial
:07:05. > :07:15.action has seen thousands of people mobilised across the country. Let
:07:15. > :07:15.
:07:15. > :08:02.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 47 seconds
:08:02. > :08:06.us take a look at what has been Some of the scenes from across
:08:06. > :08:13.Scotland today. Now, for a look at what is happening inside Hollywood,
:08:13. > :08:17.the can cross like to the chamber, where the SNP government pursues to
:08:17. > :08:22.clear the parliamentary timetable for what the finance secretary
:08:22. > :08:25.called a UK government cash grab one pensions. I have to say, it is
:08:25. > :08:30.unusually quiet on the Labour benches. There is nobody sitting
:08:30. > :08:40.there. They refused to cross the picket line, saying they wanted to
:08:40. > :08:42.
:08:42. > :08:48.show solidarity with picketing workers. The SNP benches are almost
:08:48. > :08:52.full. John Swinney is on his feet at the moment, registering strong
:08:52. > :08:59.opposition to the UK government policy. We can cross now, live, to
:09:00. > :09:05.the chamber. The pensions was back in surplus in 2009-10.
:09:05. > :09:11.Contributions higher than payments. And then, when we take recourse to
:09:11. > :09:14.the existing agreements made with the trade unions, the shield deals
:09:14. > :09:19.which were in place before the Hutton report was commissioned, we
:09:19. > :09:23.find that the cash and share arrangements agreed with trade
:09:23. > :09:26.unions would have contributed at least the past year of the
:09:27. > :09:31.increased contributions demanded by the United Kingdom government, so
:09:31. > :09:37.there was no case for short-term increases in contributions, other
:09:37. > :09:45.than to reduce the deficit that the Tories were determined to reduce at
:09:45. > :09:51.too far, and too fast a pace, for the benefit of our people. We are
:09:51. > :09:55.going to have an afternoon of entertainment, yes. Carry on.
:09:55. > :10:05.insists that this is to reduce the deficit but what impact does he
:10:05. > :10:06.
:10:06. > :10:10.think it has on the deficit? goodness! Where is my quo? This is
:10:10. > :10:14.from the independent public service pinches commission terms of
:10:14. > :10:19.reference. The object of the proposals that Hutton was to look
:10:19. > :10:24.at in the short term, was "to contribute to the reduction of the
:10:24. > :10:28.structural deficit". If it has not caught up with the brief of the
:10:28. > :10:37.Conservative government, what hope is there that they do what is going
:10:37. > :10:40.on, on this particular issue? -- that they know what is going on. It
:10:40. > :10:45.was appropriate for Parliament to meet on this occasion and to have
:10:45. > :10:49.the debate we are having today. I believe the Government agrees that
:10:49. > :10:53.on days like this, Parliament has the responsibility to make its
:10:53. > :10:58.boys' hair. We have a duty to put our case to Westminster, and that
:10:58. > :11:01.is why we're here and parliament, today. I was struck by the quote
:11:01. > :11:06.from Mr Crawford read out to Parliament last week from Jim
:11:06. > :11:11.Sillars, who said that a parliament is not an office or factory, it is
:11:11. > :11:14.the heart, the soul, and the instrument whereby civic society
:11:14. > :11:19.gains democratic legitimacy for the Protection of free-speech, and
:11:19. > :11:24.ruled by the ballot box. On an issue as significant as public
:11:24. > :11:28.sector pensions, I believe it is absolutely correct that the
:11:28. > :11:33.Scottish parliament meets here today, amid such public anger to
:11:33. > :11:36.make our view clear to the United Kingdom government. I fully
:11:36. > :11:41.understand why so many public sector workers dualled Anita strike.
:11:41. > :11:46.We feel it is necessary, both to make their voices heard in the
:11:46. > :11:48.pensions debate, and to register disapproval of the UK government
:11:48. > :11:54.plan to said that the giggly increase pension contributions. At
:11:54. > :11:57.a time when public sector workers face a pay freeze, significant
:11:57. > :12:02.increases in National Insurance, the dishes, higher VAT, a rising
:12:02. > :12:07.inflation and your costs, it is simply the wrong thing to do. Using
:12:07. > :12:12.our limited powers, the Scottish could and it has taken action,
:12:12. > :12:16.issuing a social breach to help hard-pressed families. We have
:12:16. > :12:20.maintained the council tax freeze, renewed its commitment to the
:12:20. > :12:26.Scottish living wage, and to notified redundancies within those
:12:26. > :12:31.parts of the public sector which we managed directly. These are
:12:31. > :12:36.practical measures the help people facing financial challenges. The
:12:36. > :12:41.key to resolving disputes of this nature is to maintain a process of
:12:41. > :12:45.meaningful and open discussion which allows all sides to explore
:12:45. > :12:50.creative and imaginative solutions within an agreed timetable. And I
:12:50. > :12:55.hope that opportunity exists, to make progress on these issues. It
:12:55. > :13:00.is important, as we explore this issue, that we understand that the
:13:00. > :13:05.financial, political and legal context which shapes the debate we
:13:05. > :13:08.are having, that approximately five 400,000 members of the six main
:13:08. > :13:12.public-sector pension schemes in Scotland, the NHS, teachers, local
:13:12. > :13:18.government, the Civil Service, the police and fire and rescue services,
:13:19. > :13:23.these schemes collectively support 314,000 pensioners and dependents
:13:23. > :13:27.or nearly 20% of the population, directly affected by this issue
:13:27. > :13:36.either as a scheme member or as beneficiary, and we're all, at
:13:36. > :13:40.least, indirectly, affected. I set out to Parliament the fact that
:13:40. > :13:45.contributions in 2,000 and then totalled �3 billion and the total
:13:45. > :13:50.paid out as pension payments was less than that, at �2.8 billion. In
:13:50. > :13:54.macro-economic terms across the UK as a whole, the cost of meeting
:13:54. > :13:59.public sector pension liabilities represents around 1.8% of GDP, per
:13:59. > :14:04.annum. The Hatton report highlights that pension piers are scheduled to
:14:04. > :14:09.fall as a percentage of GDP over time, there for the bus to wrap up
:14:09. > :14:19.contributions in the short term is demonstrated as misplaced, one more
:14:19. > :14:19.
:14:19. > :14:24.time. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with the GDP assumptions with
:14:24. > :14:29.a NATS graph, and that report? simply setting yet the evidence
:14:29. > :14:33.that the Hutton report has put into the public domain, clearly evidence
:14:33. > :14:38.gathered as part of extensive process of analysis undertaken by
:14:38. > :14:42.the Hutton report. One of the important factors in driving the
:14:42. > :14:46.debate in pensions is that people are living longer and have a better
:14:46. > :14:50.quality of life. The latest Office for National Statistics data
:14:50. > :14:59.published in October 2011, shows male life expectancy rose by 6.8
:14:59. > :15:03.years, between 1985-2010, and is expected to increase by another 4.9
:15:03. > :15:10.years in 2035. Female life- expectancy also went up and is
:15:10. > :15:14.expected to increase further, by a further 4.6 years, by 2035. Another
:15:14. > :15:19.piece of context which is of vital importance is that we must tackle
:15:19. > :15:24.the myth of the gold-plated public sector pension. The reality is that
:15:24. > :15:30.public sector pensions are, in the mean, relatively modest. The
:15:30. > :15:36.average in the gestation is �7,057 per annum, and for a local
:15:36. > :15:39.government worker is �4,754. Although it is right for us to
:15:39. > :15:45.question, and to consider the affordability and sustainability of
:15:45. > :15:49.the current arrangements, we must do so on an informed basis and not
:15:49. > :15:53.on the basis of ideological cant, or prejudice. The final piece of
:15:53. > :16:03.the contextual jigsaw concerns the powers and responsibilities of
:16:03. > :16:05.
:16:05. > :16:08.Scottish ministers when public- That responsibility is fettered by
:16:08. > :16:12.significant legal and financial constraints imposed by the UK
:16:12. > :16:16.Government which makes it difficult for us to deliver appropriate
:16:16. > :16:21.responses to the pensions challenge. The responsibility for the civil
:16:21. > :16:26.service scheme is reserved to the UK Government. The United Kingdom
:16:26. > :16:32.Government commissioned Lord Hutton to undertake his review of this
:16:32. > :16:37.issue. And we supported Lord Hutton in that exercise, making it
:16:37. > :16:42.possible for him to engage with stake holders in Scotland. His
:16:42. > :16:49.report was published in October 20 10 and his final report was
:16:49. > :16:54.published in March 2011. It said new schemes should be developed
:16:54. > :16:59.based on a more equitable sharing of costs. It said the Government
:16:59. > :17:03.should replace the existing final salary pension scheme with a new
:17:03. > :17:09.career average scheme and recommended... The Finance
:17:09. > :17:14.Secretary speaking there. Let's go to the chamber and Glenn Campbell.
:17:14. > :17:19.It looks a lot more quiet now outside the Parliament? Yes the
:17:19. > :17:27.protesters came and then they went. It is chilly here on St Andrew's
:17:27. > :17:30.day, but an hour or so ago, there were around 7,000 people rallied
:17:30. > :17:36.outside the Scottish Parliament, trade union officials say the
:17:36. > :17:39.figure was actually nearer 10,000. But a very large demonstration,
:17:39. > :17:46.perhaps the largest that there has been since the Parliament opened
:17:46. > :17:52.here in 2004. Now obviously the Finance Secretary is on his feet
:17:52. > :17:55.inside the chamber and addressing MSPs from the SNP, from the
:17:55. > :18:00.Conservative Partys and from the Liberal Democrats. But Labour and
:18:00. > :18:06.the Greens staying a I way from Parliament, preferring to stand on
:18:06. > :18:12.the picket lines, with striking workers. With that context let's
:18:12. > :18:16.discuss the strike with the General Secretary of the STUC, Graeme Smith.
:18:16. > :18:20.Are you happy with the support you have had for the strike? There has
:18:20. > :18:25.been tremendous support from the public sector workforce. We have
:18:25. > :18:30.had a huge rally in Edinburgh and Glasgow. There are about 17 events
:18:30. > :18:33.taking place and we have seen the depth of anger, of frustration, of
:18:33. > :18:39.determination of the public sector workers to resist what has been
:18:39. > :18:43.done, not just to their pingess, but the threat to their jobs and we
:18:43. > :18:47.had thrown in yesterday the additional two years of a pay
:18:47. > :18:51.freeze. People are angry and we have seen that demonstrated today.
:18:51. > :18:56.Do you make any apology to those who have had their operations
:18:56. > :19:01.cancelled or have had to take the day off work to look after the
:19:01. > :19:04.kids? I e -- I regret there needed to be a strike, but it is difficult
:19:04. > :19:09.to negotiate with the Government, because the Government has not been
:19:09. > :19:15.clear about the negotiations. For two weeks the Government has spent
:19:15. > :19:20.the time in a propaganda war of misinformation and lies and trying
:19:20. > :19:23.to viltkwri trade unions and the public sector. It would have been
:19:23. > :19:29.better trying to resolve this dispute. That is what we need to
:19:29. > :19:35.see happen now. Can that happen now, or is it inevitable that the
:19:35. > :19:39.changes will be pushed through? unions have shown a willingness to
:19:39. > :19:42.negotiate around this issue. We have not had that responded to by
:19:42. > :19:46.the Government. The Government seem to be very keen to pick a fight
:19:46. > :19:50.with the public sector workforce and again it demonstrated that
:19:50. > :19:54.yesterday. But I hope that there will be serious, there will be fair
:19:54. > :20:01.negotiations and if that is the case, then hopefully it can be
:20:01. > :20:05.resolved. If not my fear is there may be further industrial action.
:20:05. > :20:10.In the private sector, pensions have been squeezed and the
:20:10. > :20:15.Government points out that people are living longer, isn't it
:20:15. > :20:18.unreasonable to expect that the deals of the past can continue?
:20:18. > :20:24.This is one of the issues that has been raised, because things are bad
:20:24. > :20:34.in the private sector, they should be bad in the public sector. Our
:20:34. > :20:35.
:20:35. > :20:38.ourle campaign -- our campaign is about justice for all. Those in the
:20:38. > :20:42.private sector wants to see individuals save for themselves. We
:20:42. > :20:46.need to address the issue of pensions across the board. The real
:20:46. > :20:51.division is not between the public and private sector, but between
:20:51. > :20:56.ordinary workers who don't have pension and the rich directors who
:20:56. > :20:59.pay themselves huge pensions. you saying the existing schemes are
:20:59. > :21:03.sustainable. Or are you prepared to negotiate some reduction? There
:21:03. > :21:07.must be a recognition that only a few years ago the trade union sat
:21:07. > :21:10.down with the Government and negotiated significant changes,
:21:11. > :21:15.changes which increased contributions and the retirement
:21:15. > :21:20.age and put limits on the amount of contribution Naas the taxpayer
:21:20. > :21:23.would make to pensions. Unions have shown a willingness to negotiate
:21:23. > :21:29.and I hope the Government will respond F they don't, they should
:21:29. > :21:32.be in in doubt this action could continues. On the politics of this,
:21:33. > :21:36.the Scottish Government, through the Finance Secretary, making clear
:21:36. > :21:40.he does not support your action. Labour at Westminster seem to be
:21:40. > :21:44.sitting on the fence. In Scotland they're on your side. Well I have
:21:44. > :21:48.to say I have been pleased that the Scottish Government has been
:21:48. > :21:55.supportive of the cause of the public sector workforce. But very
:21:55. > :21:57.disappointed they didn't support Labour and the Tkwreens -- Greens
:21:58. > :22:03.in abandoning the Scottish Parliament today. Today is not a
:22:03. > :22:08.day for debating pensions, but for MSPs to demonstrate their
:22:08. > :22:13.democratic duty by standing alongside their constituents who
:22:13. > :22:18.are on strike, rather than o' eera ther than talking to themselves in
:22:18. > :22:26.Parliament. Thank you. We will have more from here at Holyrood from a
:22:26. > :22:32.couple of MSPs later. Thank you. Now some of the issues with our
:22:32. > :22:35.commentator, Angus Macleod from the Times. Thank you for joining me.
:22:36. > :22:40.First, the negotiations point that Graeme Smith was making there. The
:22:40. > :22:45.UK Government saying that negotiations are still ongoing and
:22:45. > :22:48.Francis Maude made that point in Scottish Parliament. -- in
:22:48. > :22:52.Parliament. How have the negotiations been going through?
:22:52. > :22:57.This is like nailing jelly to the wall. Are the negotiations going on
:22:57. > :23:03.or not? This the unions say not since November have they been in
:23:03. > :23:08.touch with anyone. But I thought the atmosphere of this was
:23:08. > :23:14.ratcheted up at the weekend when Danny Alexander the Chief Secretary
:23:14. > :23:19.to the Treasury, said that the improved deal that was on offer
:23:19. > :23:24.from the Government, that no pension member within ten years of
:23:24. > :23:30.retirement would see any reduction in their pension and obviously also
:23:30. > :23:34.making them an offer which has been on the table would be withdrawn, if
:23:34. > :23:41.the unions did not come back and sit down and hammer out some deal.
:23:41. > :23:45.Well it seems that in fact that has, that tactic has only succeeded as
:23:45. > :23:51.many predicted it would n souring the atmosphere further. I think
:23:52. > :23:59.that it was a bit of cack-handed of him, who ironically picked the
:23:59. > :24:05.Guardian, the fayreed -- faifrd paper of the -- favoured paper of
:24:05. > :24:11.the unions to announce this. will things pan out? Will these
:24:12. > :24:16.change go ahead? I don't think it is inevitable. What is inevitable
:24:16. > :24:20.as Graeme Smith I thought graphically pointed out, that more
:24:20. > :24:25.strikes may follow. That raises a point about the patience of
:24:25. > :24:27.everyone else in the great unwashed Scottish public with a series of
:24:27. > :24:32.strikes. Maybe today they show understanding and think maybe these
:24:32. > :24:36.people have a point, but whether that understanding will hold for a
:24:37. > :24:40.series of these one day strikes is another matter. What about the
:24:40. > :24:45.Scottish politics of this? We're hearing John Swinney speaking, he
:24:45. > :24:51.is having to ride two horses. Everyone seems to be riding two
:24:51. > :24:54.horses. I can put some flesh on the bones. I have seen a tweet from
:24:55. > :24:59.Stuart Hosie the Dundee SNP MP, saying that he has been supporting
:24:59. > :25:03.the strike at meetings in Dundee. At the same time, John Swinney is
:25:03. > :25:09.telling us that he doesn't support the strike. As for Labour, they're
:25:10. > :25:17.all over the place. The MSPs are not crossing picket lines, but the
:25:18. > :25:22.MPs R it is a botch up on everyone's parts. For Labour their
:25:22. > :25:27.Scottish Labour MPs were in the commons. Yes and happy to be there.
:25:27. > :25:32.Some will say I chose -- that shows the independence of Labour group at
:25:32. > :25:41.Holyrood. But I think it shows a break down in communication. Thank
:25:41. > :25:46.you. Still to come: The Saltire flew from No 10 Downing Street and
:25:46. > :25:50.David Cameron wished all Scots a happy St Andrew's day. But he
:25:50. > :25:57.didn't have a happy day at Prime Minister's questions. That is
:25:57. > :26:04.coming up. And now more on the strikes. Our reporter Kevin Keane
:26:04. > :26:08.is in Aberdeen. This rally has been going on in Aberdeen. You can see
:26:08. > :26:12.several thousand people are here with banners from a whole range of
:26:13. > :26:17.unions, from the Fire Brigades Union, through to Unison and others.
:26:17. > :26:23.A lot of them involved in this and several people speaking from the
:26:23. > :26:27.centre of castle gates. One of these speakers I'm joined by, that
:26:27. > :26:34.is Kay Barnet. Ouch how much of a strength of feeling is there -- how
:26:34. > :26:38.much of a strength of feeling this? Sni You can -- You can see and hear
:26:38. > :26:45.there is a massive strength of feeling. It is display of support
:26:46. > :26:50.from public sector workers, unions like mine, the teachers, the EIS,
:26:50. > :26:56.we have 60,000 members, but it is a display of unions coming together
:26:56. > :27:01.in the public sector and putting a clear and strong message across to
:27:01. > :27:04.the Government. About pensions, and about the public sector in general.
:27:04. > :27:13.The UK Government have condemned the strike. Do you think this is
:27:13. > :27:17.having an effect on them? Yes it is. Because in actual fact, on my way
:27:17. > :27:21.down I stopped at a picket line and I have been stopped in the streets
:27:22. > :27:25.on the way to here, by members of public, not just union members,
:27:25. > :27:29.saying thank goodness there are people in Scotland who are willing
:27:29. > :27:35.to stands up and give the Government a clear message about
:27:35. > :27:43.how irresponsible they're being. It is not public sector workers or
:27:43. > :27:46.trade union members who are here and across Scotland, they're not
:27:46. > :27:51.the irresponsible people in Scotland. It is those who will not
:27:51. > :27:57.listen. To very fair-minded, decent public sector workers. It is your
:27:57. > :28:00.union that comes in for the most criticism. People who themselves
:28:00. > :28:05.have children are having to take time off and look after children.
:28:05. > :28:11.Because your members are on strike. What do you say to those people?
:28:11. > :28:18.a mother of three children, I can say not only myself, but other
:28:18. > :28:25.members sympathise greatly. But parents in Scotland, just as much
:28:25. > :28:29.as the public, know that what today is about it is not not just about
:28:29. > :28:34.pensions, but the whole future of public services and the public
:28:34. > :28:38.sector in Scotland. So although the focus today is a focus on pensions,
:28:38. > :28:43.it is about the whole future of public service in Scotland and I
:28:43. > :28:47.think that parents in Scotland very much appreciate that and as I said,
:28:47. > :28:51.I have been stopped by parents and members of public pliers who are
:28:51. > :28:57.preerbtdive of what we're attempting to -- myself who are
:28:57. > :29:02.appreciative of what we're trying to do. Some may be members of the
:29:02. > :29:06.private sector. What do you say to those people? It is interesting how
:29:06. > :29:10.those are in the private sector are beginning to understand where we're
:29:10. > :29:14.coming from. It is the Government that have tried to set public
:29:14. > :29:19.sector against private sector workers. And that is not a fair and
:29:19. > :29:22.right thing to do. We do not believe that we're a special case,
:29:22. > :29:28.we believe that all workers in society and beyond should have the
:29:28. > :29:32.right to a decent pension. Thank you. It is of course a typically
:29:32. > :29:39.cold day here, but no rain and there are substantial numbers here
:29:39. > :29:44.to take part in this rally today. Thank you. No surprise the strike
:29:44. > :29:47.action dominated Prime Minister's questions, which saw one of the
:29:47. > :29:54.most furious exchanges between David Cameron and Ed Milliband in
:29:54. > :29:58.weeks. In June the Prime Minister praised the head teacher of a
:29:58. > :30:03.school in red itch for refusing to strike. Today he is closed her
:30:03. > :30:06.school and says, this has been the most difficult decision of my
:30:06. > :30:10.professional life. The difference in the summer was I had faith in
:30:10. > :30:14.the Government. I have not seen any progress, so I have decided to
:30:14. > :30:19.strike. Why does the Prime Minister think so many decent hard working
:30:19. > :30:29.public sector workers, many of whom have never been on strike before,
:30:29. > :30:33.
:30:33. > :30:35.feel the Government's not listen The reason people last writing is
:30:35. > :30:40.because they might object to our reforms that public-sector pensions.
:30:40. > :30:45.But I believe those reforms are absolutely essential, and as the
:30:45. > :30:51.former Labour pension secretary Lord Hutton said, and he said this,
:30:51. > :30:54."it is hard to imagine a better deal than this." what I would say
:30:54. > :30:59.of of all to people who are on strike today is that they are going
:30:59. > :31:06.on strike, at a time when negotiations are still under way.
:31:06. > :31:12.The Right Honourable Gentleman refers to what was said in June.
:31:12. > :31:18.Let me remind them what he said, on 30th June. These strikes are wrong,
:31:18. > :31:23.the strikes are wrong, at a time when negotiations are going on. Why
:31:23. > :31:30.has he changed his mind? They declare their positions at and then,
:31:30. > :31:36.and said they have made their final offer! And they have not even met
:31:36. > :31:40.the unions for four weeks, since November 2nd. And what has the
:31:40. > :31:45.Prime Minister going round saying to people? He has gone round saying
:31:45. > :31:50.he is privately delighted the unions have walked into his trap.
:31:50. > :31:54.That is the reality. He has been spoiling for this fight. And the
:31:54. > :32:00.reason people have lost faith is, he has not been straight with
:32:00. > :32:08.people. Will he admit that 100,000 low-paid workers on 15,000 a year
:32:08. > :32:13.or less are facing an immediate tax rise of 3% on his pension plans?
:32:13. > :32:18.know that his entire party is paid for by the unions, but I have to
:32:18. > :32:25.say, it is extraordinary that what he has just told the House, is
:32:25. > :32:29.completely and utterly untrue. The fact is, there were meetings with
:32:29. > :32:34.the trade unions yesterday. There will be meetings with the trade
:32:34. > :32:38.unions tomorrow, there will be meetings on Friday. These
:32:38. > :32:44.negotiations are under way. And let me repeat again what he said in
:32:44. > :32:48.June. "it is wrong to strike when negotiations are going on". And yet,
:32:48. > :32:54.today, he backs the strikes - because he is irresponsible, left-
:32:54. > :32:59.wing and week. I am proud that millions of hard-working people in
:32:59. > :33:06.this country support the Labour Party. Better that than millions
:33:06. > :33:10.from Lord Ashcroft! Now, the problem is, the problem is that he
:33:10. > :33:17.does not understand his own policies. He does not understand
:33:17. > :33:22.they are part-time workers getting less than 21,000, who will be hit,
:33:22. > :33:27.800,000 low-paid, part-time workers, 90% of Umar woman will be paying
:33:27. > :33:34.more, and he denies it, but it is true, Mr Speaker. He sits there
:33:34. > :33:42.shaking his head. He doesn't even know his own policy. And of course,
:33:42. > :33:47.Mr Speaker, he couldn't explain or justify what he did to everyone on
:33:47. > :33:51.low pay, with the miserable deal cooked up with the Deputy Prime
:33:51. > :33:56.Minister, to cut �1 billion from tax credits yesterday and in the
:33:56. > :34:01.Autumn Statement. They have no explanation for why they are doing
:34:02. > :34:04.that. The latest from Prime Minister's Questions. Back to the
:34:04. > :34:10.Chamber of the Scottish Parliament and to my colleague, Sarah
:34:10. > :34:16.Patterson. The debate is continuing. The Conservative economy spokesman
:34:16. > :34:21.is currently on his feet. He has been talking about the fact that he
:34:21. > :34:31.and his opinion, most public sector workers will seek no reduction in
:34:31. > :34:34.their pensions. And he has been calling on the SNP finance
:34:34. > :34:39.secretary to stop grandstanding against the UK government. We can
:34:39. > :34:45.cross now to hear what else he has to say. This is a hugely sensitive
:34:45. > :34:50.issue. That was the rationale for giving up to an independent,
:34:50. > :34:54.respected figure like Lord Hutton. We are living longer, and pensions
:34:54. > :34:58.are to be paid for. What the UK government is attempting to do is
:34:58. > :35:04.strike a fair balance between the taxpayer and the employee, and in
:35:04. > :35:10.many cases, they will end up with a better pension. That is a better
:35:10. > :35:14.proposal than the schemes proposed by the SNP in the S P P A
:35:14. > :35:24.submission to Lord Hutton, and on that basis, I move the amendment in
:35:24. > :35:27.
:35:27. > :35:31.my name. I call on Willie Rennie to speak, amendment No. 14402. A tough
:35:31. > :35:35.course is right that I start my contribution -- it of course is
:35:35. > :35:38.right that I start my contribution by expressing support for the fight
:35:38. > :35:42.hundred 1,000 people who were public sector workers in Scotland.
:35:42. > :35:46.We may disagree that whether they should be on strike, but it is
:35:46. > :35:50.clear from the hundreds I have met across Scotland that they used to
:35:50. > :35:56.work in the public sector because they believe in what that means and
:35:56. > :36:00.a dedicated to their jobs. I can understand their concern, as the
:36:00. > :36:03.changes be made to their terms and conditions, but part of that gives
:36:03. > :36:08.us some insight as to why this debate is happening in this
:36:08. > :36:12.Parliament, and why this Parliament should be setting, because however
:36:12. > :36:16.some people try to portray it, Scotland is not just the contrary
:36:16. > :36:20.of public-sector workers. There are half a million affected directly by
:36:20. > :36:25.the changes to pensions, but there and another 2 million other
:36:25. > :36:32.taxpayers who have an interest in this issue, who have to pay part of
:36:32. > :36:39.the Pension Bill and are entitled to have their interests represented.
:36:39. > :36:43.Strike almost right? The public of Scotland should expect to see --
:36:43. > :36:52.strike or no-strike? The public of Scotland should expect to see these
:36:52. > :36:57.issues discussed. People who have left school at 15, what will 65,
:36:57. > :37:02.retired at 65, but in more recent times, people went to university.
:37:02. > :37:06.Perhaps have a gap year, start work at 25, continue to will the age of
:37:06. > :37:11.60, but then still what a strong pension for another 20 years. To
:37:11. > :37:16.keep the same pensions simply does not add up. An element of change
:37:16. > :37:20.has visited each of those groups already. People who work for
:37:20. > :37:24.private companies have seen the end of their final salary pensions.
:37:24. > :37:28.People with private pensions have seen annuity rates drop
:37:28. > :37:32.dramatically and the cycle of world stock markets has seen the value of
:37:32. > :37:37.many people's retirements cut by tens of thousands of pounds. Of
:37:37. > :37:42.course people are concerned, but I am grateful for the steps that the
:37:42. > :37:47.UK government has taken to instil fairness in the changes that are
:37:47. > :37:52.proposed, to protect those on low incomes, contrary to what John
:37:52. > :37:56.Swinney says, to increase benefits for many workers, and to make sure
:37:56. > :38:01.that all the accumulated benefits are retained, especially for those
:38:01. > :38:10.who are only 10 years away from the end of service. Change to public
:38:10. > :38:13.sector pensions was always going to... On the point of fairness, can
:38:13. > :38:18.remember justified the move from the retail price index to the
:38:19. > :38:22.consumer price index as the way for calculating inflation related
:38:22. > :38:28.Updating, given that it affects everyone in receipt of a state
:38:28. > :38:34.pension and not just everyone in the public sector? It is applying
:38:34. > :38:38.across the public sector, across society as a whole. This is the
:38:38. > :38:44.rate the Bank of England uses and it is an appropriate, more accurate
:38:44. > :38:48.level to use, reflecting the cost that people bear. The Labour Party
:38:48. > :38:56.has accepted that they should up reforms to public sector pensions,
:38:56. > :39:06.in London. That is what is going on in the chamber. No Labour Party or
:39:06. > :39:06.
:39:07. > :39:10.Green Party MPs -- MS Ps, present. Were joined by the SNP MSP Kenny
:39:10. > :39:20.Gibson and by Malcolm Chisholm. Malcolm Chisholm, why are you not
:39:20. > :39:20.
:39:20. > :39:25.at work representing your constituents? I have been talking
:39:25. > :39:30.to a great number of constituents today, who are taking action. This
:39:30. > :39:33.is not just a strike like other strikes. If you look at women
:39:33. > :39:38.workers, there has never been in the history of this country so many
:39:38. > :39:43.women on strike as the Arc today. Of course we should be debating the
:39:43. > :39:48.issue, but not today. It is unfortunate as the Fijians have
:39:48. > :39:51.said, that be SNP decided to debate this, today, when they should be
:39:51. > :39:58.out showing support for the public sector workers whose pensions are
:39:58. > :40:02.being attacked. Kenneth Gibson, from the SNP, this must be awkward
:40:02. > :40:08.for you, because there must a been unease at having to cross picket
:40:08. > :40:12.lines, amongst some MSPs. Mull, is being disingenuous. We have just
:40:12. > :40:16.seen Ed Miliband and the House of Commons speaking, so I wonder why
:40:16. > :40:20.it is OK for Labour MPs to go into the House of Commons to debate this,
:40:20. > :40:23.but not the Scottish parliament. We know our police, and that is
:40:23. > :40:27.debating the issues of the day in the Scottish parliament. There is
:40:27. > :40:31.no picket at the Scottish Parliament at this time so there is
:40:31. > :40:38.no reason why Malcolm Chisholm cannot walk through the door.
:40:38. > :40:42.Labour position on the strike has been an absolute mess. In the House
:40:42. > :40:46.of Commons, the Labour leader Ed Miliband, not condoning or
:40:46. > :40:52.condemning the strike, but Scottish Labour taking a very different line.
:40:52. > :40:56.You have not got a very coherent argument. We're taking the exactly
:40:56. > :41:02.the same line as London but we get criticised if we do anything
:41:02. > :41:05.different. We had been asked to attend Parliament by Boland and
:41:05. > :41:10.colleagues but the trade unions asked us specifically not to take
:41:10. > :41:13.part in Parliament, so we're listening to what our constituents,
:41:13. > :41:17.in the public-sector unions, are saying, but we are mindful of the
:41:17. > :41:21.way in which this is a completely unprecedented strike. It is very
:41:21. > :41:25.important that we challenge the myths a growing public sector
:41:25. > :41:29.pensions. Some of them I hear that your coverage of the debate from
:41:29. > :41:34.the Conservatives and Lib Dems with in the last few minutes. I was glad
:41:34. > :41:40.to hear Gavin Brown Ref Bear to the Hatton report, but Lord Hutton said
:41:40. > :41:46.public sector pensions, as a share of GDP, is declining, it is 1.9%
:41:46. > :41:51.now, it would be 1.4% in 2016, without the changes. We do not make
:41:52. > :41:57.these changes. There is not a crisis of public sector pensions.
:41:57. > :42:00.want to put up on Hutton report with you, Kenneth Gibson. This has
:42:00. > :42:05.been called a naked cash grab by the UK government, tough meet the
:42:05. > :42:09.deficit. But do you not agree there was a �9 billion gap between
:42:09. > :42:14.contributions and payments coming up in four years' time, so we do
:42:14. > :42:18.actually need this money? I don't agree with those figures. The money
:42:18. > :42:22.in Scotland in the public sector pension fund has increased by 200
:42:22. > :42:26.million over the last year. But the timing of this is wrong. We're
:42:26. > :42:30.talking about imposing an additional pension contribution on
:42:30. > :42:36.public sector workers, at a time when inflation is 5.2%, VAT has
:42:36. > :42:40.gone up by 2.5%, but there is a pay freeze for those earning less than
:42:40. > :42:44.�21,000 per year, so when families are struggling, it is the wrong
:42:44. > :42:47.time to impose this. What has upset us in Scotland is that we have been
:42:47. > :42:51.blackmailed into this. For every month the delay bringing in these
:42:51. > :42:59.proposals, the Scottish parliament will be fined �8.4 million per
:42:59. > :43:04.month. You say you are being blackmailed into this, but you I --
:43:04. > :43:07.you are either a government or you are not. Would you except John
:43:07. > :43:12.Swinney has the power to put forward his own arguments? Pensions
:43:12. > :43:15.are reserved. We would be fined �100 million. That is the salaries
:43:15. > :43:20.of the year 4,000 teachers at a time when the Scottish budget has
:43:20. > :43:23.been cut by 12% over three years, and it would be grossly
:43:23. > :43:27.irresponsible to sell to impose a �100 million cut which would not
:43:27. > :43:32.tell anyone in the long run. We think that is nonsense. I would
:43:32. > :43:37.point out that, Malcolm Chisholm crossed picket lines last year,
:43:37. > :43:43.along with other MSPs when the Labour Government cut redundancy
:43:43. > :43:47.payments by one per possible service workers, causing civil
:43:47. > :43:50.service used to roll out a strike last year. Mr Chisholm, the
:43:50. > :43:54.previous Labour government did not address this. The pension timebomb
:43:54. > :43:58.was not addressed by the previous UK Labour government. That is
:43:58. > :44:05.completely untrue. There was a pension agreement between the then
:44:05. > :44:08.Labour government added radiance in 2007. The National Audit Office did
:44:08. > :44:12.an audit of that arrangement and said that as a result of what
:44:12. > :44:16.Labour did then, the pension issue was stabilised, and that was
:44:16. > :44:20.followed by the Hatton report which said there would be a declining
:44:21. > :44:24.share of GDP going to public-sector pensions. There is no pages crisis,
:44:24. > :44:28.and we have to challenge the myth being put forward by the UK
:44:28. > :44:34.government. I agree with much of what Kenny Gibson said in his last
:44:34. > :44:38.statement, although it is contradicted by the statement that
:44:38. > :44:43.the Scottish government need on pigeons, but this is a cash grab or
:44:43. > :44:48.in a public sector workers already enduring a pay freeze, so workers
:44:48. > :44:51.who are physically going to have a pay freeze for the ears were being
:44:51. > :44:55.asked to pay extra for their pensions and it is a tax grab, and
:44:55. > :45:03.in many cases, attacks grab one very low-paid workers, who
:45:03. > :45:08.certainly do not have gold-plated Labour say you won't take your
:45:08. > :45:13.salary today, where will that money go? The money is Wirth held and
:45:13. > :45:19.people can make contributions their own money to whoever they want. It
:45:19. > :45:24.will be the same for anyone else on strike, the money will be withheld
:45:24. > :45:28.by those who pay the salaries. Thank you both for joining me.
:45:28. > :45:32.Labour MPs have crossed the picket lines to enter the house of
:45:32. > :45:36.Parliament. There is a lot o' discuss after the Chancellor's
:45:36. > :45:39.autumn statement and on this day of strike action, let's go to
:45:39. > :45:46.Westminster and David Porter. Some tough questions for David Cameron
:45:46. > :45:53.at Prime Minister's questions today? Yes it was a noisy event
:45:53. > :45:58.today. It was one of the instances where it was not synthetic anger.
:45:58. > :46:02.People were angry and had different views on the strikes and the autumn
:46:02. > :46:07.statement. We have also had within the last couple of hours news from
:46:07. > :46:12.the Foreign Secretary that he ordered the Iranian Embassy to be
:46:12. > :46:18.shut and Embassy staff to withdraw from Britain as retaliation for
:46:18. > :46:25.what has been going on in Tehran and the storming of British Embassy.
:46:25. > :46:33.So no shortage of things to discuss with Iain Murray from Labour. And
:46:33. > :46:39.Mike Weir from the SNP and Jo Swinson from the Liberal Democrats.
:46:39. > :46:43.Jo Swinson, why is it that the Government is having to get so
:46:43. > :46:47.tough with those in the public sector with relation to their
:46:47. > :46:52.pensions? Well the good news that we're all living longer and while
:46:52. > :46:58.that is an excellent thing it means it is not sustainable for pensions
:46:58. > :47:03.to continue in the way they have been. When many of the schemes that
:47:04. > :47:08.started out it was about 50% was paid by the employee and 50% by the
:47:08. > :47:13.taxpayer. And that balance is nor like two thirds being paid by the
:47:13. > :47:17.taxpayer and that is not going to be able to be sustainable. So we're
:47:17. > :47:22.asking people to pay more, but what is on offer from the Government is
:47:22. > :47:28.still a very good pension deal and in fact it has been made better by
:47:28. > :47:32.the improved offer which Danny Alexander announced. I I would
:47:32. > :47:38.encourage people in the public sector and the unions who are
:47:38. > :47:43.striking to look at the detail and recognise that defined benefits are
:47:43. > :47:52.being protected, everything that has been acrude is protected and it
:47:52. > :47:58.is a generous period of transition. I'm 31 and I think about pensions
:47:58. > :48:02.will be like when we draw pension and it is going to have to change.
:48:02. > :48:10.People are drawing pensions for 20 years now. Some of us can't
:48:10. > :48:15.remember when we were 31 x but Mike Weir from the Government say it is
:48:15. > :48:21.unsustainable to have pensions at their current levers. No, the
:48:21. > :48:24.Government are taking money out of the pockets of people who can't
:48:24. > :48:31.afford it. Most people in the public sector are low paid and are
:48:31. > :48:37.being asked to pay 3% when they're facing higher fuel and and food
:48:37. > :48:40.prices and at best a pay freeze in some cases, that is a difficult
:48:40. > :48:46.situation and it is also adding to the economic woes. That is taking
:48:46. > :48:51.money out of local economies. There is a danger that low paid workers
:48:51. > :48:56.will opt out of pension schemes and that is storing up problems.
:48:57. > :49:03.there not case if your party was in Government, you would beable 1 to
:49:03. > :49:06.do the same thing? "-- be having to do the same thing. Well there are
:49:07. > :49:12.negotiations going on about pensions, but this immediate 3%
:49:12. > :49:16.increase in contribution rate is a 3% income tax on the lowest paid.
:49:16. > :49:19.People are striking not because they want to have a go at the
:49:19. > :49:23.Government, but because they have had enough. They see their
:49:23. > :49:26.contributions going up and they're being asked to work longer and that
:49:26. > :49:31.is not good enough. The Government have to get around the table with
:49:31. > :49:37.the union and come to a settlement. Otherwise the rhetoric that we're
:49:37. > :49:41.about to see about this 2nd November proposal will come to
:49:41. > :49:48.fruition. That notice helping anyone. It is a case you're going
:49:48. > :49:53.to have a negotiate a deal and may as well do it sooner than later?
:49:53. > :49:59.agree all sides need to get around the table. But in terms of low paid
:49:59. > :50:03.workers, they're going to benefit, because moving to the average
:50:03. > :50:06.salary, the deal the Government has put forward makes it better
:50:06. > :50:09.pensions for low paid workers than they would be able to get. The
:50:09. > :50:14.other thing we need to remember, the state pension, that many people
:50:14. > :50:19.rely on as part of their income, anding thanks to Liberal Democrats
:50:20. > :50:23.we have a triple lock and pensions are going up by 5.2% and that is
:50:23. > :50:29.the big increase there has been in the state pension. We're doing a
:50:29. > :50:35.lot to protect pensioners and the most vulnerable. And so while these
:50:35. > :50:41.are difficult times, there is still a focus on the low paid and the
:50:41. > :50:45.most vulnerable rabble. We're fighting a helicopter policing the
:50:45. > :50:48.march, if you wanted better pensions for people in Scotland,
:50:48. > :50:53.this anything the SNP or the Scottish Government could do to say
:50:53. > :50:59.we would have a different pensions deal in Scotland? The Scottish
:50:59. > :51:03.Government wanted to do that, but Danny Alexander said he would take
:51:03. > :51:07.a hundred million out of Scottish budget if we did. The Scottish
:51:07. > :51:11.Government are tied by the grant from Westminster and we don't have
:51:11. > :51:19.the power to vary that. We would seek to do it differently, because
:51:19. > :51:25.of the the way the system is set up we can't do that. This system must
:51:25. > :51:30.change. How do we get to where we don't have millions withdrawing
:51:30. > :51:35.their labour? It must be done on the basis of consensus. We are
:51:35. > :51:41.hearing rhetoric from Jo Swinson, but the winter fuel payments have
:51:41. > :51:44.developed, because of decision made by the Government. And would the
:51:44. > :51:49.Scottish Government do something. Their submission to the Hutton
:51:49. > :51:56.Inquiry is to do something worse than what the Conservative
:51:56. > :52:00.Government is trying to do. That is nonsense. It is true we need to
:52:00. > :52:05.look at pensions, but it must be done with proper negotiations and
:52:05. > :52:09.not imposing a 3 pence tax. pension strike is the second half
:52:09. > :52:15.of an important week here, yesterday the autumn statement, and
:52:15. > :52:20.Jo Swinson, however the Government would like to put a gloss on it, it
:52:20. > :52:24.was gloomy from the Chancellor. one is denying we're in a difficult
:52:25. > :52:28.financial situation. In 2008 there was a massive shock to the global
:52:28. > :52:33.economy. We're dealing with the aftermath of that and further
:52:33. > :52:37.trouble within the eurozone which effects the British kpwhri. But we
:52:37. > :52:42.are helping low paid workers through raising the income tax
:52:42. > :52:48.threshold and a hasive programme of investment with new transport
:52:48. > :52:53.projects to boost the economy. There is a Barnett consequential,
:52:53. > :53:00.with �400 million going Scottish Government and I hope the snl will
:53:00. > :53:05.use that. You are getting �433 million from the Barnett
:53:05. > :53:09.consequentials. Will the Scottish Government put that to good use?
:53:09. > :53:13.course it will. The Scottish Government have already been doing
:53:13. > :53:18.what they can within their powers to push forward infrastructure
:53:18. > :53:21.projects. What is not clear about the money however is what the
:53:21. > :53:25.revenue consequences are and as I understand I, the Scottish
:53:25. > :53:30.Government have been told the capital outcome, we have yet to see
:53:30. > :53:37.the whole picture and the other thing there is a the statement
:53:37. > :53:44.yesterday said that growth will be 0.7% in 2012. Much of that money
:53:44. > :53:48.isn't coming in until after 2012. So there is only a small amount
:53:48. > :53:54.available, welcome that though it is. Iain Murray, you say the
:53:54. > :53:59.Government is cutting too much too deeply. But it appears it is a non-
:53:59. > :54:04.start tore take the braibs off and boost spending. The markets
:54:04. > :54:09.wouldn't buy that? They are borrowing �158 million, because the
:54:09. > :54:14.Chancellor's plan is not working. Unemployment will rise and the
:54:14. > :54:19.number of people losing their job is going up and the Chancellor has
:54:19. > :54:22.to do something to address that. He refuses to move off his
:54:22. > :54:28.ideologically draifr driven plan and look at something to boost the
:54:29. > :54:37.economy. We have to leave is there. Thank you. We have battled
:54:37. > :54:44.helicopters and sirens and now we finish, it goes quiet. Thank you.
:54:44. > :54:48.Now let's round up with Angus Macleod. Very interesting hearing
:54:48. > :54:53.that debate. It is difficult for folk watching to pick out who is
:54:53. > :54:58.right in this pension debate? a lot of things, there is right on
:54:58. > :55:05.both sides. I have no doubt, most people looking at this would say
:55:05. > :55:10.that the Government has handled the issue with an astonishing lack of
:55:10. > :55:16.finesse and we go back to last weekend. But I listened to Malcolm
:55:16. > :55:21.Comisholm and others saying that pensions as a percentage of GDP is
:55:21. > :55:23.declining. But of course that begs the question what GDP? We're in a
:55:23. > :55:29.situation where the Scottish economy some would say is already
:55:29. > :55:36.in recession. And it is difficult to see how public sector workers
:55:36. > :55:40.can a void taking their share of the pain that that means across
:55:40. > :55:44.society. That brings us to the wider context of the autumn
:55:44. > :55:50.statement yesterday, those growth figures were a shock. Yes, we have
:55:50. > :55:57.heard the description of economics often enough as a dismal science,
:55:57. > :56:03.yesterday it showed how dismal it can be. Osborne a year ago when he
:56:03. > :56:06.presented his staipt, h talked in positive terms, there was light at
:56:06. > :56:11.the end of the tunnel, deficit reduction was on track and well
:56:11. > :56:18.what a difference a year has made? Because of low productivity and
:56:18. > :56:26.inflation and to give him this, because of the eurozone shock, all
:56:26. > :56:30.his calculations have come well and truly unstuck. Politically north
:56:30. > :56:36.and south of the border it is tricky when it comes to timing. We
:56:36. > :56:39.have the general election in 2015, the Scottish elections in 2016 and
:56:40. > :56:47.the referendum. It is not good for political parties when the economy
:56:47. > :56:52.is not in a good way. It may be that the result could be the moment
:56:52. > :56:55.the political language, the political train will change, if you
:56:55. > :57:00.remember Osborne and David Cameron were going to go to voters and say
:57:00. > :57:04.we have got rid of the deficit. Well they're not saying that. It
:57:04. > :57:09.may be lighter, they say. And in term of referendum it is your guess
:57:09. > :57:13.as good as mine how will voters vote? Against a very bleak economic
:57:13. > :57:19.back grounds. Will that make them more inclined to vote yes or more
:57:19. > :57:24.inclined to vote no? I wouldn't want to bet on either at the moment.
:57:24. > :57:29.Talking about the Chancellor and his plan A and there were further
:57:29. > :57:35.cuts in spending. He stood up yesterday, do you think he had the
:57:35. > :57:40.cred cibility -- credibility to carry on with his plan. In term of
:57:40. > :57:46.credibility, his credibility is just holding. But only just. If
:57:46. > :57:53.these, if his latest forecast go awry next year, and we see Britain
:57:53. > :57:56.back into recession, I am not sure that he will be able to, well he
:57:56. > :58:01.might not even be around for the next stpaiment. I think David
:58:01. > :58:06.Cameron will prove loyal. But I think there needs to be some ideas
:58:06. > :58:11.put forward by the Treasury as to how to haul Britain out of the
:58:11. > :58:17.recession. The ideas Osborne came up yesterday, I don't think they
:58:17. > :58:23.qualified. Some one said it reminded them of Gordon Brown,
:58:23. > :58:29.micromeasures, nothing really that was a -- could be said to change
:58:29. > :58:34.the face of the economic situation. Thank you. Our web-site is being