:00:18. > :00:19.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:20. > :00:21.Coming up on the programme this afternoon...
:00:22. > :00:24.The Scottish child abuse inquiry holds its first hearings
:00:25. > :00:31.And, there is a return to campaigning on core
:00:32. > :00:35.issues as parties prepare for a head-to-head TV debate.
:00:36. > :00:40.A far-reaching inquiry into allegations of historical abuse
:00:41. > :00:45.of children in care in Scotland will begin hearing evidence today.
:00:46. > :00:47.With me throughout today's programme to discuss this and other news
:00:48. > :00:49.is the political commentator Alf Young.
:00:50. > :00:51.But first let's find out more about those
:00:52. > :00:56.Here's Morag Kinniburgh with the story.
:00:57. > :01:05.Of vigil in memory of children who died after abuse. Survivors are
:01:06. > :01:11.fighting for justice and for action to protect children now. I reported
:01:12. > :01:16.the abuse in 1998 and I was ignored. Over the years I met and heard of
:01:17. > :01:23.many survivors who were the same. Things have changed. Scotland has
:01:24. > :01:27.changed. Child abuse has changed. Reporting and recognising child
:01:28. > :01:32.abuse has changed. Many many people have come forward to tell us about
:01:33. > :01:36.having been abused in care. This inquiry gives investigative abuse
:01:37. > :01:43.against children in care in Scotland. Many children in Scotland
:01:44. > :01:48.have, over the years, been abused whilst in residential care. They
:01:49. > :01:53.suffered some terrible treatment, inflicted by those to whom their
:01:54. > :01:57.care was entrusted. That is a matter of grave concern. So far, 69
:01:58. > :02:01.institutions, boarding schools, hospitals, Kristin cancel and
:02:02. > :02:05.Charity ghettos have been investigated and it is thought
:02:06. > :02:08.thousands of children suffered sexual, physical and emotional abuse
:02:09. > :02:12.as well as neglect by the very people who were meant to look after
:02:13. > :02:16.them. Kate was seven when she was taken to a home in Northern Ireland
:02:17. > :02:18.and repeatedly sexually and physically abused and she has come
:02:19. > :02:26.back to support survivors and has traced her own family. I was called
:02:27. > :02:37.out of class on many occasions when I hadn't put my hand up. I was
:02:38. > :02:42.stretching and that nuns were telling me to hurry up. It has cost
:02:43. > :02:46.?6 million so far and the inquiry could last years as more survivors
:02:47. > :02:48.are expected to come forward and record the abuse they enjoyed. --
:02:49. > :02:50.endured. Morag Kinniburgh ending that
:02:51. > :02:51.report about the hearing Let's speak to Alf Young
:02:52. > :03:02.and our Home Affairs Give us some background, it has been
:03:03. > :03:07.a pretty long saga already. It has been, it was announced in December
:03:08. > :03:13.2014 by the then education Secretary Angela Constance and it began its
:03:14. > :03:19.work in October 2015. We already 18 months down the line and this is the
:03:20. > :03:26.public session that it has held. Hitherto there have been a lot of
:03:27. > :03:29.work done behind the scenes setting up the inquiry, working up the
:03:30. > :03:35.framework of how the evidence will be given and the various chapters of
:03:36. > :03:41.evidence and who will be giving evidence and in what form. As we
:03:42. > :03:44.heard in the report, that has cost around ?6 million so far. What we
:03:45. > :03:53.will now have it a succession of statements from organisation such as
:03:54. > :03:57.the Care Abuse Survivors group. There is a whole list of church
:03:58. > :04:03.bodies and charities that dealt with children, way back into the 1950s,
:04:04. > :04:08.because they are trying to look at abuse which has been carried out in
:04:09. > :04:17.the living memory of people. That goes back 50 or 60 years, and right
:04:18. > :04:20.up to 2015. It is a wide-ranging inquiry but it is fair to say that
:04:21. > :04:26.some of the survivors say it is not wide-ranging enough. And what
:04:27. > :04:30.results... Obviously the survivors are very keen for this and it might
:04:31. > :04:34.help them deal with what they have been through, but in terms of
:04:35. > :04:41.outcomes, other than that, what can happen as a result of this? Nothing
:04:42. > :04:46.will happen, nobody is a result of this inquiry will be charged unless
:04:47. > :04:51.the evidence that is given is sufficient to then go into the
:04:52. > :04:58.formal criminal justice process. What is happening, John Scott QC,
:04:59. > :05:03.who represents beads in Care Abuse Survivors group, said that they want
:05:04. > :05:06.justice, acknowledgement of the abuse they suffered and recognition
:05:07. > :05:10.that they are survivors but also they want some sort of redress,
:05:11. > :05:17.financial compensation, and many are very old and a number have died in
:05:18. > :05:24.the past 18 months while the inquiry has been getting underweight and he
:05:25. > :05:27.argues that what is required is some sort of interim financial payment to
:05:28. > :05:31.help people because their lives have been wrecked and many cannot get
:05:32. > :05:36.work. They are struggling financially and some sort of
:05:37. > :05:39.official recognition with some financial compensation is what I
:05:40. > :05:45.want want. They are not in it for the money, they want recognition.
:05:46. > :05:49.And money means recognition in the way, some people might be struggling
:05:50. > :05:54.but it is an acceptance by the state that they have been wrong. My sense
:05:55. > :05:58.is that it is also about getting public recognition that this
:05:59. > :06:05.happened and on a scale of really quite horrifying significance. It
:06:06. > :06:09.has lain secret for so long and I think a lot of it is about getting
:06:10. > :06:19.public recognition. It is not just happened here, I met a Canadian from
:06:20. > :06:24.the native tribes in Canada a few years ago and it is happening there
:06:25. > :06:29.as well and Justin Trudeau has just said to the Pope that he has to come
:06:30. > :06:36.to Canada and apologise for the way in which those people, and I met
:06:37. > :06:42.this guy's mother, who had had her language beaten out of her in a
:06:43. > :06:50.school run by nuns in the western side of Canada. And therein might
:06:51. > :06:55.this is an inquiry solely into sexual abuse. I'm curious, you said
:06:56. > :06:59.there could be financial compensation, how does that work?
:07:00. > :07:06.Does the government step in? Is there a process? That is the point,
:07:07. > :07:09.there is no process and John Swinney has made it plain on a number of
:07:10. > :07:16.occasions that there is to be no open station. -- no compensation. I
:07:17. > :07:22.think pressure will build and the government might have to change its
:07:23. > :07:27.mind. But in other enquiries, in Ireland for instance, the question
:07:28. > :07:33.of redress was put on the table and survivors did get money. It is a no
:07:34. > :07:36.fault compensation as it worth it helps people come and it gives some
:07:37. > :07:40.official recognition that something terrible happened and these people
:07:41. > :07:42.can have a bit of financial comfort. Thank you.
:07:43. > :07:45.Now there's just a week and a day to go before the general election
:07:46. > :07:47.takes place and tonight we'll have the first TV debate
:07:48. > :07:53.of the campaign which will feature all the main parties.
:07:54. > :07:55.Our Westminster correspondent is eagerly waiting for the stars
:07:56. > :08:04.We should explain, it is the first TV debate with all the parties
:08:05. > :08:08.because there was a previous want but the Conservatives and Labour did
:08:09. > :08:14.not turn up and we were expecting this evening that Jeremy Corbyn and
:08:15. > :08:18.Theresa May would not turn up but that would be standings from the
:08:19. > :08:25.other parties but now the big news is that Jeremy Corbyn is coming
:08:26. > :08:29.along? Indeed he is going to join the six other party representatives
:08:30. > :08:34.from the Senate house which you can see behind me, part of the
:08:35. > :08:38.University of Cambridge which is normally used for university
:08:39. > :08:42.graduations. Tonight it will be the venue for the only seven way debate.
:08:43. > :08:47.We thought until lunchtime it would be a debate which would have neither
:08:48. > :08:51.Theresa May nor Jeremy Corbyn in but this morning he decided he would
:08:52. > :08:56.take part and issued the challenge to Theresa May to join him, debating
:08:57. > :09:02.the various issues in the general election which is just over a week
:09:03. > :09:06.away. Conservative party sources have made it plain that despite what
:09:07. > :09:11.they regard as a kind offer, she will not be joining them. There is
:09:12. > :09:16.going to be someone there from the Conservative party, who will it be?
:09:17. > :09:22.It will be the Home Secretary, Amber Rudd. She is representing the
:09:23. > :09:25.Conservatives. Theresa May has always made it plain since the
:09:26. > :09:29.beginning of the campaign that she would not be taking part in any face
:09:30. > :09:34.to face debates with Jeremy Corbyn. She will appear on the same
:09:35. > :09:38.programme as him but as we saw the other night, she will be interviewed
:09:39. > :09:43.separately. It will be Amber Rudd for the Conservatives, Tim Darren
:09:44. > :09:48.for the Lib Dems, for the SNP it will be Angus Robertson -- Tim
:09:49. > :09:53.Farron. As far as I can work out, this is the first time he will have
:09:54. > :09:58.taken part in a national debate. I have seen him a few minutes ago
:09:59. > :10:05.arriving in Cambridge looking very relaxed. Taking in the sights of
:10:06. > :10:11.Cambridge as a lot of people are. It will be an interesting debate but it
:10:12. > :10:15.is -- because it is the only debate with all the major parties taking
:10:16. > :10:20.part. They know some of what has happened, they have drawn lots as to
:10:21. > :10:24.who will speak and in what order and where the Legzdins will be. They
:10:25. > :10:29.will each be allowed to make an opening statement -- the lecterns.
:10:30. > :10:32.There will have questions from the floor of which they will have no
:10:33. > :10:37.knowledge, not the exact questions, and at the end they will all get a
:10:38. > :10:42.chance to sum up why voters should vote for their party. Thank you.
:10:43. > :10:48.Your usual sunshine does not seem to have followed you from London! It
:10:49. > :10:52.doesn't! We have some television lights here which makes it look a
:10:53. > :10:58.little bit sunnier than it is. I'm not going to tempt fate but so far
:10:59. > :11:01.the weather has been very kind to us but let's not talk about it too much
:11:02. > :11:05.because I know what happens when you talk about sunshine, it usually ends
:11:06. > :11:13.up with me getting very wet! Thank you. Obviously Labour have thought
:11:14. > :11:18.this is a good wheeze to try this but will it work for them? I think
:11:19. > :11:23.it is part of the rehabilitation of Jeremy Corbyn in the wider sense...
:11:24. > :11:29.They have caught Theresa May because if she did turn up it would look
:11:30. > :11:33.like she was caving in to him and if she doesn't, she risks looking
:11:34. > :11:36.petulant. And the fact that it is Amber Rudd and not her will not play
:11:37. > :11:42.that well because people will ask why she is not there, why she is not
:11:43. > :11:49.engaging in the issues of the moment as a leader of one of the parties
:11:50. > :11:52.that wants to be in power. Obviously it only works for Jeremy Corbyn if
:11:53. > :11:57.he can pull off a good performance but it is not that difficult in a
:11:58. > :12:02.one plus six. The interesting thing is this campaign has gone is that he
:12:03. > :12:08.has made mistakes, he made one yesterday about the cost of
:12:09. > :12:12.childcare proposals, not knowing the number, a big number and he had
:12:13. > :12:17.forgotten it, but by the evening he was handing out a jar of jam to the
:12:18. > :12:22.hosts of The One Show. I forgot my jar of jam for you today! But it
:12:23. > :12:26.obviously worked. He comes across increasingly as somebody who most
:12:27. > :12:30.people did not know much about that who is increasingly comfortable in
:12:31. > :12:37.his own skin. That is maybe a little bit of why Labour is appearing... Is
:12:38. > :12:41.it that? John Curtis Good who knows about these things, described the
:12:42. > :12:47.Labour performance in the polls is remarkable. It has gone from... It
:12:48. > :12:52.could be 12 points that the Tories are ahead or five depending on which
:12:53. > :12:56.poll you look at but still it is a turnaround. Not so much that it is
:12:57. > :13:03.big, that the orthodoxy in the media was that it would not happen. He was
:13:04. > :13:08.finished and burned, toast. But he's not yet toast. But the caveat is,
:13:09. > :13:16.are the pollsters able to actually get some real handle on what people
:13:17. > :13:19.are thinking? And there is a gap in the polls, way outside any margin of
:13:20. > :13:24.error so something is not right. And they are even prior learning as you
:13:25. > :13:28.could have been doing this huge Super Bowl that will interview 7000
:13:29. > :13:36.people a day from now until the election -- super pole. They think
:13:37. > :13:38.it might give a better result. Recent evidence from the pollsters
:13:39. > :13:45.in recent elections, notably in That is probably why they are trying
:13:46. > :13:48.something different. Now, in the Scottish Parliament
:13:49. > :13:50.today, Jamie Hepburn, the Minister for Employability
:13:51. > :14:02.and Training, is leading I very much welcome that. I look
:14:03. > :14:06.forward to Mr Lockhart doing that in a moment or so. But I would have
:14:07. > :14:09.thought Mr Lockhart would have welcomed a business pledge making a
:14:10. > :14:16.difference to 80,000 workers across Scotland. At beaten in that regard
:14:17. > :14:21.to Jackie Baillie's Amendment. -- let me turn in that regard. Let me
:14:22. > :14:27.say, in terms of her specific wording of the amendment, I thought
:14:28. > :14:29.it was perhaps a bit more critical than it might have necessarily been.
:14:30. > :14:39.I've just made the point about a business pledge, the living wage,
:14:40. > :14:47.the hundreds... I will in a moment. We see the living wage accreditation
:14:48. > :14:50.scheme, 800, carers positive skin, covering over 200,000 workers in
:14:51. > :14:56.Scotland. I think that is progress, and of course I will give way. The
:14:57. > :15:00.Minister is well aware that we support the Scottish Government in
:15:01. > :15:05.the Scottish business pledge. We just wish you would be more
:15:06. > :15:11.ambitious in promoting it so more people would benefit. Indeed, that
:15:12. > :15:15.is a shared agenda, so it's a perfectly good intervention for me
:15:16. > :15:18.to go on to say but I think the wording is a bit more critical than
:15:19. > :15:24.it needed to be. I don't want to split hairs, and I would absolutely
:15:25. > :15:28.recognise that, yes, whilst progress has been made, we need to make
:15:29. > :15:36.further progress. I recognise what I think is the implicit
:15:37. > :15:38.recommendation, that the Scottish parliament should have control over
:15:39. > :15:44.employment law. I see the ambition she set out in relation to the
:15:45. > :15:49.amendment. I think it's vital that we have the ability to see an
:15:50. > :15:54.engagement of dialogue between employers, unions and government to
:15:55. > :16:03.better in bed fair work in law here in Scotland. That reflects the fair
:16:04. > :16:06.work convention also strategic Labour Martic group has been
:16:07. > :16:11.established as part of the Labour market strategy. If we can see a
:16:12. > :16:17.control of these areas here in this Parliament, we can ensure we have
:16:18. > :16:21.fair work embedded in our legal framework. I recognise, and I hope
:16:22. > :16:25.it is recognised that progress has been made, but we must never be
:16:26. > :16:30.complacent. Too many people are still in low paid or insecure work.
:16:31. > :16:33.The importance of government working with partners, including trade
:16:34. > :16:37.unions, the third sector in business, to protect the rights of
:16:38. > :16:41.all workers, has never been more important. We published our first
:16:42. > :16:45.Labour market strategy that I refer to a few moments ago, in recognition
:16:46. > :16:51.of current and future challenges and to set out how fair work contributes
:16:52. > :16:56.to future economic growth. We will continue to work with the fair work
:16:57. > :17:01.convention to support the continued delivery of security, opportunity
:17:02. > :17:07.and effective fulfilment. That independent fair work convention is
:17:08. > :17:10.central to making the current about their work and creating more
:17:11. > :17:15.energetic and productive workplaces supported by stronger industrial
:17:16. > :17:22.relations. The vision which I share, for the fair work remarks to be
:17:23. > :17:25.embedded throughout workplaces by 2025, and protecting the rights of
:17:26. > :17:26.workers is at the core of the framework and the principles which
:17:27. > :17:36.underpin it. This is an odd debate about workers'
:17:37. > :17:40.rights, because it is all predicated on what happens once Britain leaves
:17:41. > :17:47.the EU, and whether one can believe Theresa May's pledges to maintain
:17:48. > :17:53.workers' rights in the UK. That is really what underpins it. It's one
:17:54. > :18:00.relatively tiny example of a huge number of issues like that, where
:18:01. > :18:08.Europe's interventions has put in some of the superstructure of
:18:09. > :18:12.support of that kind. When we leave, what replaces it? I think I saw the
:18:13. > :18:17.FT saying today that 759 treaties need to be renegotiated to --
:18:18. > :18:22.renegotiated. On things like workers' rights, the status quo and
:18:23. > :18:28.he will become British law until the British Parliament decides, or the
:18:29. > :18:33.Scottish parliament, decides to change it, so that is what Theresa
:18:34. > :18:35.May has said, that basically what if they're under Europe becomes their
:18:36. > :18:43.in Britain. So we might change things. Of course, the other
:18:44. > :18:47.dynamic, which was clear at Holyrood there, is that Scotland and the rest
:18:48. > :18:53.of the UK might want to simply do it differently, have the power being
:18:54. > :18:57.doubled to do it. It's an interesting one for Labour. I notice
:18:58. > :19:03.Ian Murray has been saying that he wants devolution of Labour's rights.
:19:04. > :19:07.Workers' rights. You can see the logic, but you also think that that
:19:08. > :19:12.is the last thing socialists should campaign for. Is difficult to run a
:19:13. > :19:17.relatively integrated economy if we are still part of the UK, and
:19:18. > :19:19.workers, as we now know, we know from our families and friends and
:19:20. > :19:25.acquaintances, people move across the board of the time and work in
:19:26. > :19:30.different places difficult to do. We talking about this as a Brexit issue
:19:31. > :19:34.by the back door. This whole election, we were supposed to be
:19:35. > :19:40.talking about nothing else but Brexit. We have hardly talked about
:19:41. > :19:45.it at all. What happened? My sense is that it was really called for
:19:46. > :19:50.opportunistic reasons, to establish a kind of majority that would enable
:19:51. > :19:55.tough talking and strong talking, strong and stable and all of those
:19:56. > :19:59.words that we get thrown at us on a daily basis. So what Theresa May
:20:00. > :20:04.meant was, I want an election to give me a mandate to do what I want
:20:05. > :20:09.that Brexit, not so we can have a discussion about it. We are not
:20:10. > :20:12.Willie having that discussion, and I suspect we won't have that
:20:13. > :20:14.discussion once the election over and we know who is in power.
:20:15. > :20:16.Now, Holyrood is to be given control over 11 benefits under
:20:17. > :20:19.the Scotland Bill and yesterday Social Security Secretary Angela
:20:20. > :20:21.Constance set out the details of the first benefit payments to be
:20:22. > :20:35.Let me start with our plans for the best start grant and funeral
:20:36. > :20:40.expenses assistance. These are early benefits, and they will make an
:20:41. > :20:43.immediate difference to people of the full commitments set out in our
:20:44. > :20:50.manifesto. We will start delivering Scotland's first new benefit by
:20:51. > :20:54.summer 2019, and this replacement to the sure start maternity grant is a
:20:55. > :20:59.substantial investment in a child's early years. As part of our wider
:21:00. > :21:03.work aimed at giving each child a best start in life, it will
:21:04. > :21:08.contribute to tackling poverty, improving health and raising
:21:09. > :21:12.attainment in the current UK Government's sure start grant, it is
:21:13. > :21:18.a single payment of ?500 to families on low incomes. We will increase it
:21:19. > :21:22.to ?600 for the first child, recognising that the UK rate hasn't
:21:23. > :21:27.increased in over a decade. We will also reintroduce payments of ?300
:21:28. > :21:34.for second and subsequent children, a cut made by the UK Government in
:21:35. > :21:37.2011. I will make no judgment on the number of children people decide to
:21:38. > :21:42.have, and we will place no limit on the number of children we help in
:21:43. > :21:50.any qualifying family. We will also provide to payments of ?250 during a
:21:51. > :21:52.child's early years, around the time they start nursery and before
:21:53. > :21:59.starting school. This means qualified families received ?1100
:22:00. > :22:05.over the course of the early years of their first child's life,
:22:06. > :22:12.compared to just ?500 at present. Plus further support for additional
:22:13. > :22:16.children. For a two child means an additional ?1400. Take-up of the
:22:17. > :22:21.sure start maternity grant is low, around 50%, so improving take-up and
:22:22. > :22:28.increasing the support provided will make an immediate impact on low
:22:29. > :22:33.income families in Scotland. We will also deliver the new funeral
:22:34. > :22:37.expenses assistance by 2019, providing critical support to people
:22:38. > :22:42.at a difficult time. We heard through our consultation about the
:22:43. > :22:45.stress caused by the complexity of the application process and time
:22:46. > :22:51.taken to make payments. We have already committed that we will aim
:22:52. > :22:56.to process applications within ten working days of receipt of a
:22:57. > :23:01.completed application. I want to turn to carers allowance. We are all
:23:02. > :23:06.agreed on the vital contribution that carers make to Scotland, and it
:23:07. > :23:09.isn't right that people with caring responsibilities receive less
:23:10. > :23:14.support than others. That's why the First Minister committed in October
:23:15. > :23:16.2015 to increasing the level of carers allowance to that of
:23:17. > :23:22.jobseeker's allowance. We have been working hard with the DWP to
:23:23. > :23:25.investigate how to increase the support as quickly as we can, and I
:23:26. > :23:30.thank them for the constructive and collaborative support and helping us
:23:31. > :23:37.achieve that commitment as early as possible. I can announce to the
:23:38. > :23:41.chamber that we will do so from next summer. As an interim arrangement to
:23:42. > :23:46.get this done as early as possible, people in Scotland will continue
:23:47. > :23:50.receiving carers allowance from DWP, but they will receive the increase
:23:51. > :23:54.from our Social Security agency and they will receive that support twice
:23:55. > :24:01.a year. Whilst first payments will be in the summer of 2018, they will
:24:02. > :24:04.cover from April 2018, so carers can be assured they will get funding
:24:05. > :24:13.that covers all of the 2018-19 financial year. We will invest over
:24:14. > :24:16.?30 million a year in increasing the support. I am delighted this policy
:24:17. > :24:24.will now be delivered by the Scottish Government. Our plans for
:24:25. > :24:29.the first wave of benefits show the difference we can make to the people
:24:30. > :24:30.of Scotland through our new Social Security powers, ensuring they are
:24:31. > :24:31.treated with dignity and respect. That was Angela Constance setting
:24:32. > :24:33.out the first priorities To dig into the detail we're joined
:24:34. > :24:37.by Professor Paul Spicker - a writer and commentator
:24:38. > :24:48.on social policy. First of all, can I ask you an
:24:49. > :24:55.obvious question? Are any of these changes going to make a difference
:24:56. > :24:59.to people that they will really notice in their everyday lives? They
:25:00. > :25:05.are going to make a change certainly do people. When you say in their
:25:06. > :25:08.everyday lives, that suggests that people go through these procedures
:25:09. > :25:13.frequently, and from what you just heard, you will gather that the
:25:14. > :25:18.benefits that are being dealt with first are not those benefits. They
:25:19. > :25:23.are the benefits which typically are paid as a one-off. The funeral
:25:24. > :25:27.payments, which is a particularly difficult and complex and obscure
:25:28. > :25:33.procedure, is obviously not something that people get practice
:25:34. > :25:36.at going through, and there are lots of potential problems in the way it
:25:37. > :25:40.will be done. The government has made a deliberate decision to start
:25:41. > :25:48.off, certainly in two cases, with the best start grant and the funeral
:25:49. > :25:52.payments, with things that can be dealt with as one-offs, so they can
:25:53. > :25:56.then get procedures in place and get things to work. The carers allowance
:25:57. > :26:01.is interesting. They approached that in a different way. Instead of
:26:02. > :26:08.trying to deal with that as a regular benefit paid in the way that
:26:09. > :26:11.other benefits have been paid, weekly, fortnightly or monthly,
:26:12. > :26:20.they've gone five twice a year payment. They've gone -- that will
:26:21. > :26:27.greatly simplify the administration. But that is a top up. It is. They
:26:28. > :26:31.had the option of taking over carers allowance, and there was indeed a
:26:32. > :26:38.certain amount of controversy at the time at the powers being put in,
:26:39. > :26:44.that they seemed in the Scotland act to be tying the much too closely to
:26:45. > :26:50.the existing carers allowance. Now, by taking this option and going for
:26:51. > :26:52.a top up, Angela Constance just called it a supplement, effectively
:26:53. > :26:59.that means that it piggybacks on the existing rules for carers allowance.
:27:00. > :27:04.Those rules are complex. They are often arcane. They certainly confuse
:27:05. > :27:08.people who, for example, will often received a note saying that they are
:27:09. > :27:15.entitled but that no money comes along with it. That will remain the
:27:16. > :27:18.case. There were suggestions, for example, that the Scottish
:27:19. > :27:22.Government might want to do something about the position of
:27:23. > :27:26.young carers or students, who are currently excluded. They will remain
:27:27. > :27:31.excluded because, within the existing system run by the DWP, they
:27:32. > :27:35.are not entitled, and that will continue to be the case. As you were
:27:36. > :27:42.suggesting earlier, there will have to be a new agency to administer all
:27:43. > :27:45.of this. You seem to be suggesting that, by focusing on one-off
:27:46. > :27:48.payments, they can at least get the thing up and running and make sure
:27:49. > :27:54.it works before they start to do anything more ambitious. Social
:27:55. > :27:58.Security involves deals with huge numbers of people in a wide variety
:27:59. > :28:02.of circumstances, and what successive administrations have had
:28:03. > :28:06.to learn to live with is that anything that can go wrong will go
:28:07. > :28:11.wrong. They have been working very hard to try and make sure that as
:28:12. > :28:14.little goes wrong as possible, because we can be fairly sure that
:28:15. > :28:20.people in the media, like yourself, will come back later and say, you
:28:21. > :28:23.were going to take this over and make it better, look at the problem
:28:24. > :28:29.is this or that person has been through. And I think they are very
:28:30. > :28:34.sensitive to that. The danger is that, if you are trying to make sure
:28:35. > :28:38.that the transition is as painless as possible, one way of doing that
:28:39. > :28:42.is also to freeze things the way that they are, rather than trying to
:28:43. > :28:50.look at how it might be done better. And there is a strong tendency in
:28:51. > :28:52.this to be, let's say, unadventurous, sometimes
:28:53. > :28:56.conservative, holding onto systems because they are there. As I have
:28:57. > :29:00.already said about both the carers allowance and the funeral payments
:29:01. > :29:04.in particular, there are rules in them which I think many people would
:29:05. > :29:09.like to see changed. They would like things done differently.
:29:10. > :29:16.Just to remind people, there are many benefits that have not been
:29:17. > :29:20.devolved and will not change so many of the big ticket issues, like the
:29:21. > :29:30.freeze in welfare payments, the cap on tax credits, Nunavut is effected
:29:31. > :29:33.by this? None of it. The way it is usually represented and something
:29:34. > :29:38.that Angela Constance repeated yesterday, is to say there is a
:29:39. > :29:46.number of specific benefits being transferred and the most important
:29:47. > :29:51.which have not yet been organised or provision made for disability living
:29:52. > :29:56.allowance and attended allowance, but if we look at the rules, they
:29:57. > :29:58.don't actually say Scotland will take over the administration of
:29:59. > :30:05.these benefits. It says Scotland will have the power to make rules
:30:06. > :30:11.and make benefits in these areas. Things don't have to stay the way
:30:12. > :30:15.they are. But every change has to be done with care. Because of the
:30:16. > :30:22.difficulty of doing this, because there is so much that overlaps with
:30:23. > :30:27.so much else in the benefit system, clearly absolutely everything has to
:30:28. > :30:31.be negotiated. For example, carer Pulse allowance is not paid if an
:30:32. > :30:37.overlapping benefit is payable. For many people that means that if they
:30:38. > :30:44.get pension credit, they will not get carer Pulse allowance as well
:30:45. > :30:48.also they may claim it in order to get the carer Pulse premium. This is
:30:49. > :30:52.about information going back and forth between the different parts of
:30:53. > :30:55.the benefits system that will still be the case. Thank you very much for
:30:56. > :30:57.joining us. The new benefits will be subject
:30:58. > :30:59.to the scrutiny and agreement Joining me from the Garden Lobby
:31:00. > :31:05.today, we have Ivan McKee of the SNP, Jamie Greene
:31:06. > :31:06.from the Conservatives, Claudia Beamish for Labour,
:31:07. > :31:24.John Finnie of the Greens, Claudia Beamish, what do you make of
:31:25. > :31:29.these Social Security proposals? I feel reasonably positive about the
:31:30. > :31:31.proposals, I think it will be very important that the Scottish
:31:32. > :31:36.government and local authorities make sure that people know what the
:31:37. > :31:42.possibilities are because I know at the moment there is not as broad an
:31:43. > :31:45.uptake as there might be. I am a co-convenor of the cross-party group
:31:46. > :31:53.for carers and I have been a young carer long ago and I fight hard for
:31:54. > :31:56.carers' rights. It is disappointing that the SNP government has not
:31:57. > :32:03.actually agreed yet, although I hope they will come to that, to backdate
:32:04. > :32:07.the carer's allowed as well as doing with what they're doing with
:32:08. > :32:10.matching jobseeker's allowance which Scottish Labour is also doing but
:32:11. > :32:16.they could backdate it to win powers were. Presumably Labour would want
:32:17. > :32:21.the Scottish government to say they would find some way of not
:32:22. > :32:26.implementing the cap on tax credits to two children? I think that would
:32:27. > :32:30.be an important issue and in our election pledges we are clear that
:32:31. > :32:36.we are determined to support education in a way that the SNP
:32:37. > :32:42.government has not. Liam McArthur, what do you make of these proposals?
:32:43. > :32:47.Like Claudia, there is stuff to welcome. As has been suggested in
:32:48. > :32:52.the earlier debate, the complexity of this area of policy should not be
:32:53. > :32:56.underestimated and actually starting with allowances that are perhaps
:32:57. > :33:00.more straightforward to administer, it does not seem to be an
:33:01. > :33:03.unreasonable approach but nevertheless expectations are that
:33:04. > :33:08.having argued so strenuously and for some time for devolution over
:33:09. > :33:12.control of these benefits, we want to see the Scottish government
:33:13. > :33:18.tailor the approach in Scotland to meet the needs and expectations of
:33:19. > :33:24.people here. Alison Johnson, would you have done anything different? --
:33:25. > :33:29.Alison Johnstone. We wanted to go further than the other parties with
:33:30. > :33:34.the allowance because carers save our economy billions and we have
:33:35. > :33:38.over 700,000 unpaid carers in Scotland and probably about 70,000
:33:39. > :33:41.who are claiming the allowance. We would like the government to look at
:33:42. > :33:45.how much they are paying. The jobseeker's allowance, that is
:33:46. > :33:52.intended to replace income you are not earning but being a carer
:33:53. > :33:55.carries other costs as well. I asked in the statement yesterday if the
:33:56. > :33:58.Cabinet Secretary would look at increasing it for carers looking
:33:59. > :34:02.after more than one person for example. There is more we can do and
:34:03. > :34:08.we have to use all the powers we have to the max. Jamie Greene, are
:34:09. > :34:12.the Conservatives against anything that the Scottish government is
:34:13. > :34:16.proposing here or is it fair enough? What we are seeing is devolution in
:34:17. > :34:20.action and it is worth pointing out that it was David Cameron's
:34:21. > :34:22.Conservative government who ensured these powers were devolved to the
:34:23. > :34:26.Scottish parliament and what was clear yesterday from the statement
:34:27. > :34:30.is that they were lacking in detail as to how these benefits would be
:34:31. > :34:36.delivered and the structure of the new agency in Scotland, how is it
:34:37. > :34:39.could operate and be funded. But you are not against any of the proposals
:34:40. > :34:45.we have been discussing the last few minutes? Again, that is the point of
:34:46. > :34:48.devolution... I understand that the Scottish government can make them, I
:34:49. > :34:53.am asking if the Conservative party is happy with these? Clearly they
:34:54. > :34:59.have taken a different path from the party nationally and our government
:35:00. > :35:03.in Westminster, and I would say that if they do want to spend more public
:35:04. > :35:07.money they have to tell the voters directly and clearly where the money
:35:08. > :35:12.is coming from. How much is this going to cost and where is it going
:35:13. > :35:17.to come from? The number that the Cabinet secretary spoke about in the
:35:18. > :35:22.debate I think was 150 million and the details of where... That is in
:35:23. > :35:27.the overall Scottish budget, and that is already budgeted for in the
:35:28. > :35:35.budget that was passed and we discussed earlier when the agency
:35:36. > :35:41.was set up over the coming years. You are saying there is no
:35:42. > :35:44.additional money? I'm saying that there is 150 million for the agency
:35:45. > :35:50.which will be spent in due course as it is set up over the coming period
:35:51. > :35:54.and the money for the benefit is already budgeted for. It has already
:35:55. > :35:59.been identified in the budget you are past. Is that your
:36:00. > :36:03.understanding, Jamie Greene? Again we are lacking transparency. It was
:36:04. > :36:07.clear from the statement yesterday that many members across the chamber
:36:08. > :36:11.are looking for specifics on both the cost of how this agency will
:36:12. > :36:15.operate and any additional benefit that Scotland is introducing on wet
:36:16. > :36:20.in the budget the money will come from and if it will affect any other
:36:21. > :36:26.area of benefit or public spending in the budget. Election campaign,
:36:27. > :36:32.Liam McArthur, if we can swing round to you, there you are, what are you
:36:33. > :36:37.going to do in the remaining time? We are fairly positive, obviously in
:36:38. > :36:44.the constituencies like East Dunbartonshire, Edinburgh West...
:36:45. > :36:48.Overall... You don't seem to be breaking through in the way you
:36:49. > :36:51.hoped to. We always made clear we would be focusing our efforts on
:36:52. > :36:57.constituencies where we had the best chance of winning and in a number of
:36:58. > :36:59.those... Let's forget the individual constituencies but you are still on
:37:00. > :37:07.about eight to ten points in the poll. As I say, we are quite
:37:08. > :37:12.confident that the momentum is with us in those constituencies. What
:37:13. > :37:18.issues are you going to focus on, Alison Johnstone? We have been
:37:19. > :37:22.focusing on our call for a universal Basic income pilot, as we are
:37:23. > :37:26.discussing in Glasgow and Fife and we would like to see some action
:37:27. > :37:31.there. We are emphasising the fact we could have 200,000 new jobs in
:37:32. > :37:35.Scotland in the industries of the future. Obviously we are opposing
:37:36. > :37:39.the Tories hard Brexit and our candid in Glasgow North just topped
:37:40. > :37:43.a poll of Westminster and Holyrood leaders when it came to popularity.
:37:44. > :37:48.You don't seem to talk about green issues any more, are you going to
:37:49. > :37:52.change the name of the party to the used to be Green Party? Why would a
:37:53. > :38:00.political party not want to have a position on all the issues devolved
:38:01. > :38:04.this Parliament or Westminster? You are not be used to be Green Party!
:38:05. > :38:09.It is time for Claudia Beamish to do is Jeremy Corbyn can win. He has a
:38:10. > :38:14.terrific chance and the polls today have shown there is an opportunity
:38:15. > :38:19.and I want to say that I was out with Ian Murray's campaign yesterday
:38:20. > :38:23.and the people on the doorsteps in Edinburgh South... Hang on, I'm
:38:24. > :38:28.going to interrupt you because you're all doing this, we can't talk
:38:29. > :38:32.about individual constituencies. Just to explain, it's not because
:38:33. > :38:36.I'm interrupting you, it is because legally we're not allowed to and you
:38:37. > :38:40.know perfectly well it is not fair because it is only fair to talk
:38:41. > :38:45.about particular constituencies when all the candidates standing in that
:38:46. > :38:49.constituency are there to present themselves and that applies to
:38:50. > :38:54.constituencies you would fight any Scottish election. Jamie Greene,
:38:55. > :38:56.what are you going to major on? I will not talk about specific
:38:57. > :38:59.constituencies because what is clear is that the Scottish Conservatives
:39:00. > :39:03.are the only party making any significant gains in Scotland as we
:39:04. > :39:08.saw with the recent local elections and a poll this might put us neck
:39:09. > :39:12.and neck with Labour and the Lib Dems down at 5%. If you are looking
:39:13. > :39:17.at polls and what will happen in the weeks' time, it is clear we will
:39:18. > :39:22.make some gains. Have you been surprised, delighted or disappointed
:39:23. > :39:26.at the U-turn that Theresa May has been engaging in over the past week?
:39:27. > :39:33.I don't think she has been engaging in a U-turn. It is putting forward
:39:34. > :39:38.our manifesto which is a true costed manifesto unlike some of the other
:39:39. > :39:41.parties... It is the manifesto with different versions depending on
:39:42. > :39:45.which day of the week it is? And I have not seen a single poll that
:39:46. > :39:49.puts the Labour Party ahead. The choice is clear, it is Theresa May
:39:50. > :39:52.or Jeremy Corbyn to be by Minister and who do you want to represent
:39:53. > :40:00.this country at the Brexit negotiations? The SNP, you kind of
:40:01. > :40:03.need to get on a map in this election and convince people in
:40:04. > :40:09.Scotland it is not just about Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May but can you
:40:10. > :40:12.do that? The last time I looked, the map of Scotland was pretty yellow
:40:13. > :40:14.and we are focused on all constituencies because we have a
:40:15. > :40:20.good chance of winning in every single seat and this battle is down
:40:21. > :40:23.to Scotland standing up to the Tory government in Westminster and the
:40:24. > :40:28.people of Scotland need to vote for the party and MPs who they think
:40:29. > :40:31.have the best of doing that and in every one of the 59th constituencies
:40:32. > :40:35.it is the SNP do our best placed to beat the Tories. What would you say
:40:36. > :40:40.to people, and there has been this comment to this effect, to people
:40:41. > :40:44.saying that the SNP were the big social Democratic party in Scotland
:40:45. > :40:49.but your manifesto actually looks like a rather pale imitation of
:40:50. > :40:56.Jeremy Corbyn's? I think you will find that we other party campaigning
:40:57. > :41:00.for anti-austerity, if you look at our commitment, ?120 billion over
:41:01. > :41:03.the lifetime of the Westminster Parliament to invest in public
:41:04. > :41:08.services and infrastructure, we have a commitment that is very solid and
:41:09. > :41:13.frankly, the policies that Jeremy Corbyn has got in his manifesto,
:41:14. > :41:17.four example free tuition fees, are basically copying from SNP policies
:41:18. > :41:20.and it is the other way round, it is asking the lead on this and the
:41:21. > :41:24.Labour Party who is trying to catch up as best they can as they always
:41:25. > :41:32.do. We will have to leave it there I'm afraid. That you all are looking
:41:33. > :41:34.determined over the next couple of weeks, thank you very much.
:41:35. > :41:38.Let's get some final thoughts from Alf Young.
:41:39. > :41:44.What do they need to do for the next couple of weeks other than avoid
:41:45. > :41:50.mentioning individual constituencies on programmes like this? I think
:41:51. > :41:56.they need to get more people engaged. My sense is that people who
:41:57. > :42:02.don't obsess about politics all the time are pretty disengaged from the
:42:03. > :42:06.whole campaign so far. If they want people to actually come out and cast
:42:07. > :42:13.their votes, they have to start talking. We are facing big,
:42:14. > :42:16.significant developments in these islands... Perhaps you have alluded
:42:17. > :42:22.to part of the problem earlier in the programme when we were talking
:42:23. > :42:26.about when Theresa May was saying it is about Brexit, the referendum was
:42:27. > :42:29.about Brexit, this is about giving her the power to negotiate a Brexit
:42:30. > :42:36.she has not made clear what it is she wants to do so the debate is not
:42:37. > :42:40.about Brexit. There are a whole set of issues, the issue of what this
:42:41. > :42:47.process of coming out will look like and how it will affect us all in
:42:48. > :42:49.terms of our material lives, our secure lives and the rest of it but
:42:50. > :42:55.there are all these other things that have not really been addressed
:42:56. > :43:02.about intergenerational equity, the state of the health service, I had
:43:03. > :43:06.an experience of it myself and mine was terrific. But you can see the
:43:07. > :43:13.pressure is on it in terms of the costs... We're not having that
:43:14. > :43:16.debate. The SNP would say that we were against Brexit and they want
:43:17. > :43:20.another independence vote and want to stay in the single market and
:43:21. > :43:24.presumably they could argue that the reason there is no big debate on
:43:25. > :43:27.Brexit is because although labour say things differently from the
:43:28. > :43:30.Tories, they are not fundamentally challenging the Conservative
:43:31. > :43:36.government on it. What with the debate be about? It seems to me you
:43:37. > :43:41.don't get that kind of debate any more because the whole atmosphere,
:43:42. > :43:45.the interparty atmosphere, is so intensely bitter. One side is going
:43:46. > :43:51.to destroy us all, the other will make heaven tomorrow is none of that
:43:52. > :43:56.is real or true. If only some of them would engage on how do you make
:43:57. > :43:59.what we have got that bit better. We heard Angela Constance talking about
:44:00. > :44:03.adding a bit too benefits but you don't make things better by calling
:44:04. > :44:09.Sure Start best start and saying that something different. This is
:44:10. > :44:13.hardly the first time this has happened, but politicians are
:44:14. > :44:18.dealing in Apocalypse now, Brexit is going to be not a bit difficult and
:44:19. > :44:22.difficult to negotiate but a disaster! Or the most fantastic
:44:23. > :44:27.opportunity ever! Do people's eyes glaze over? I think so. The whole
:44:28. > :44:32.thing about that side go it doesn't matter which party, blue, red or
:44:33. > :44:38.yellow, that party will destroy you all, life as you know it. It is just
:44:39. > :44:44.so disengaged from the kind of lives most people live and the issues they
:44:45. > :44:47.face on a daily basis. I think politicians in general have become
:44:48. > :44:51.so professionalised that they have become disengaged from the
:44:52. > :44:52.electorate. On that thought, we believe that!
:44:53. > :44:56.We're back at noon tomorrow with First Minister's Questions.
:44:57. > :45:10.Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson