:00:21. > :00:24.Hello there and a very warm welcome from Holyrood to the Scottish
:00:24. > :00:28.Parliament and the special programme. We will hear from the
:00:28. > :00:32.First Minister, he is on his feet now. He has begun his statement
:00:32. > :00:36.setting out his proposals for an independent referendum, this is the
:00:36. > :00:41.consultation paper that will go out to you, the people of Scotland to
:00:41. > :00:45.of their views on that. Alex Salmond started his speech a few
:00:45. > :00:50.minutes ago but we do not want you to miss anything so let's catch up
:00:50. > :00:53.with Mr Salmond from the bear -- from the very beginning. Presiding
:00:53. > :00:57.Officer, the people who live in Scotland are the best people to
:00:57. > :01:02.make decisions about their own future. Of that, there can be no
:01:02. > :01:05.doubt. In May of last year, the people of Scotland gave this
:01:05. > :01:09.Scottish Government an overwhelming mandate because of a record of good
:01:09. > :01:12.government, a clear vision of the future and the promise of a
:01:12. > :01:22.referendum on independence. Today the Scottish Government has
:01:22. > :01:27.published a consultation paper, Will Scotland, Your Referendum. --
:01:27. > :01:31.your Scotland. This gives Scotland the opportunity for people to offer
:01:31. > :01:34.their views on referendum on how the country should be carried out.
:01:34. > :01:40.It's set out a key principles on which the referendum will be based,
:01:40. > :01:43.most importantly that it should be the highest standards of fairness,
:01:43. > :01:50.transparency and propriety. The most important decision by the
:01:50. > :01:54.people of Scotland in 300 years must be beyond reproach. Let me
:01:54. > :01:57.begin with the referendum question. The question we intend to put to
:01:57. > :02:02.the Scottish people when the referendum is set out on page 11 of
:02:02. > :02:07.the consultation, a nation short straight forward question so let me
:02:07. > :02:17.read it. The question is "do you agree that Scotland should be an
:02:17. > :02:25.
:02:25. > :02:29.We have a great deal of questions to deal with to make, I would
:02:29. > :02:32.appreciate if you left a pause to the end. We have set out in the
:02:32. > :02:36.consultation paper that those who wish to do so can provide their
:02:36. > :02:40.views on that question and other aspect of the referendum through
:02:40. > :02:45.the consultation process. The question is designed to comply with
:02:45. > :02:49.the Electoral Commission's guidelines which are the referendum
:02:49. > :02:52.questions which should be provided simply and with neutrality. The
:02:52. > :02:57.question we are publishing today aims to be all three and is subject
:02:57. > :03:02.to testing of course, using a sample of voters. The regulation of
:03:02. > :03:08.the referendum will be an essential element in ensuring its fairness.
:03:08. > :03:10.The regulator must be a body which has the profession and --
:03:10. > :03:13.professionalism to ensure that the vote is above reproach. The
:03:13. > :03:18.regulator should be accountable to this Parliament for its work. As
:03:18. > :03:22.members know, we have had concerns previously about the best way to
:03:22. > :03:25.ensure that accountability. Last year, the Scottish Parliament
:03:25. > :03:29.however passed legislation to give up the Electoral Commission a role
:03:30. > :03:33.in regulating local elections in Scotland. That is a role which the
:03:33. > :03:38.commission will report to this Parliament into how it carries this
:03:38. > :03:44.out. We therefore have the opportunity to build upon that and
:03:44. > :03:49.the Commission's experience in surprise in two elections in 2011
:03:49. > :03:54.and to Ricki Lake -- to regulate the referendum. The document we
:03:54. > :03:57.have published has roles before the commission and the electoral
:03:57. > :04:00.management board. The electron Management Board developed by the
:04:00. > :04:03.Scottish Government work of electoral professionals was
:04:03. > :04:08.established in response to the recommendations of the pooled
:04:08. > :04:18.report into the conduct of the 2007 parliamentary election -- the Gould
:04:18. > :04:23.report. One area where we do agree with the UK Government is on the
:04:23. > :04:26.geographical basis of the franchise. To the people who live and work in
:04:26. > :04:30.Scotland are best placed to decide its future. Our proposal is
:04:30. > :04:34.therefore that the eligibility to vote in the referendum should
:04:34. > :04:41.reflect international accepted principle that franchise for
:04:41. > :04:46.constitutional referendum can be determined by residents. It was the
:04:46. > :04:50.approach for the 1997 referendum on devolution as well. The one area
:04:51. > :04:54.where we propose to extend the franchise relate to young people.
:04:54. > :04:58.This government, and I should say leading figures in the opposition
:04:58. > :05:05.as well have been consistent in commitments, to extend in the
:05:05. > :05:08.France side -- franchise to all 16 and 17-year-olds. Our young people
:05:08. > :05:13.should have the chance to play their part in decisions about the
:05:13. > :05:16.community and their country. Well we have been able to include 16 and
:05:16. > :05:19.17-year-olds in elections, which has been a responsibility of this
:05:19. > :05:24.Parliament, we have done so. If a 16-year-old in Scotland can
:05:24. > :05:27.register to join the Army, get married and pay taxes, surely he or
:05:27. > :05:33.she should be able to have a say in this country's constitutional
:05:33. > :05:38.future. In our cost edition therefore we are seeking views on
:05:38. > :05:42.our right to extend the right to vote in this referendum to 16 and
:05:42. > :05:46.17-year-olds who are eligible to be included on the electoral register.
:05:46. > :05:49.Presiding Officer, just as we do not intend to artificially
:05:49. > :05:56.restricts the fine tries, nor should we restrict the scope of
:05:56. > :06:02.options -- restrict the franchise... The United Kingdom argues that
:06:02. > :06:06.there should be no question of law or that evolution, but the choice
:06:06. > :06:09.should be between full independence of the status quo. The Scottish
:06:09. > :06:14.Government's position is for independence. Therefore that option
:06:14. > :06:19.will appear on any ballot paper in straightforward manner. We set out
:06:19. > :06:22.our proposals for the questions as I said in the consultation document.
:06:22. > :06:27.However this is a consultation with the Committee of the realm of
:06:27. > :06:31.Scotland. And it is imperative that the referendum is seen to be fair,
:06:31. > :06:35.democratic and inclusive. If there is an alternative for maximum
:06:35. > :06:39.devolution which would command support in Scotland, it is only
:06:39. > :06:43.fair and democratic that that option should be among the choices
:06:43. > :06:48.open to the people of Scotland. We will not, as the UK Government
:06:48. > :06:55.seems to want, eliminate that choice simply because it might be
:06:55. > :06:57.popular. We will hold the referendum in the autumn of 2014.
:06:57. > :07:01.The United Kingdom Government argues that because the referendum
:07:01. > :07:07.is so important, therefore we should rush ahead. We are taking a
:07:07. > :07:09.more rational and sensible approach. This document, this consultation
:07:10. > :07:13.document, set out in the clearest form the steps that will lead to be
:07:13. > :07:17.taken to prepare for that referendum. It ensures that in the
:07:17. > :07:23.autumn of 2014, it is the sin is that a referendum could be held in
:07:23. > :07:26.a way that meets the high-standard -- it is the way that the
:07:26. > :07:31.referendum, a high standard that the people this country could
:07:31. > :07:35.expect. We share with United Kingdom government the idea that
:07:35. > :07:38.the views of the country and the electorate should be important, not
:07:38. > :07:42.over parliamentary competent. We have set out in the past of the
:07:42. > :07:46.Scottish Parliament could hold a referendum which we are satisfied
:07:46. > :07:50.would be with in its present confident. In order to ensure the
:07:50. > :07:55.referendum is affecting beyond legal challenge, we will work with
:07:55. > :07:57.the UK Government and I look forward to my conversations with
:07:57. > :08:01.the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister over the coming
:08:02. > :08:04.weeks. Let me be quite clear however. The terms of the
:08:04. > :08:07.referendum are for the Scottish Parliament and the people of
:08:07. > :08:11.Scotland to decide. This is the mandate given to the Scottish
:08:11. > :08:17.Parliament by the people and the responsibility of carrying through
:08:17. > :08:21.the will of the electorate now rests with this chamber. Presiding
:08:21. > :08:25.Officer, I am sure it is not lost in the chamber today and certainly
:08:25. > :08:30.could not be after a time for reflection, that today is the
:08:30. > :08:34.birthday of Robert Burns, our national poet. It is a remarkable
:08:34. > :08:40.testimony to the power of Robert Burns in the 253rd anniversary year
:08:40. > :08:43.of his birth, we will toast the man in many different guises, continue
:08:43. > :08:48.to explore his work and find inspiration in his words. However
:08:48. > :08:52.for the purposes of today, I want to invoke Burns, the Democrat.
:08:52. > :08:56.Because the choice Scotland faces now is fundamentally a matter of
:08:56. > :09:01.democracy. Our country is facing a new constitutional future and we
:09:01. > :09:04.must take the best part for our people. I am told that there are
:09:04. > :09:09.members of the House of Lords who believe that it is in their
:09:09. > :09:14.province to set boundaries on what Scotland can and cannot do. Caps
:09:14. > :09:18.they should be reminded that Burns' great hymn to the quality has been
:09:18. > :09:28.heard in this Parliament before -- perhaps they should. A man is a man
:09:28. > :09:32.
:09:32. > :09:42.for that and that was... There are hundreds wish at his word, for all
:09:42. > :09:42.
:09:42. > :09:47.that the man of independent mind looks and laughs at all that".
:09:47. > :09:54.Burns's' journey was remarkable. Three centuries on and beat 17 No 7
:09:54. > :10:00.Union, the people elected a majority independence government --
:10:00. > :10:06.pro-independence government. This time the decision will be made
:10:06. > :10:10.democratically by the people of Scotland. Presiding Officer, during
:10:10. > :10:19.the 2011 at election campaign as this column was on a journey. There
:10:19. > :10:24.is a continuity and a sense of purpose. As one of my best friends,
:10:24. > :10:32.bash at bed, said. It is where we are going to go that that is
:10:32. > :10:35.important. It is my belief that Scotland is going forward towards a
:10:35. > :10:39.fairer and more prosperous society and today is the latest in the
:10:39. > :10:43.Vicente along that path. -- is the latest significance. To quote the
:10:43. > :10:45.words of James Robertson, a contemporary poet of who Robert
:10:45. > :10:50.Burns would have undoubtedly approved, the road that was blocked
:10:50. > :10:55.has no end, the unknown journey is known, the heart that is how it
:10:55. > :11:00.will mind. The bird that was trapped has flown. The bird has
:11:00. > :11:06.flown and cannot be returned to its cage. I believe this to represent
:11:06. > :11:10.the aspirations and ambitions of the people of Scotland. Today as we
:11:10. > :11:14.passed another milestone, we reach out to the other parties across
:11:14. > :11:17.this Parliament in a spirit of consensus urging them to contribute
:11:17. > :11:21.to this consultation on the referendum that the people voted
:11:21. > :11:26.for in such huge numbers. Expressing their views, I would
:11:26. > :11:32.urge them to listen not to voices from elsewhere, why not instead
:11:32. > :11:37.take the lead from the people of Scotland? In the election we set
:11:37. > :11:41.out our immediate focus is in addressing the immediate challenges
:11:41. > :11:45.and strengthening Scotland's recovery. Today's decline in the
:11:45. > :11:48.United Kingdom GDP underlines the urgency of that objective. There
:11:48. > :11:50.for our immediate constitutional priority was improving the Scotland
:11:51. > :12:00.Bill to give its job-creating powers that this country
:12:01. > :12:09.
:12:09. > :12:17.All the powers in this Government to improve things. This Parliament
:12:17. > :12:23.needs full economic powers so we can do more for Scotland. The next
:12:23. > :12:28.two and half years promise to be among the most exciting in
:12:28. > :12:34.Scotland's modern history. In the autumn of 2014 the people killing
:12:34. > :12:40.aver country will have their say and the referendum. -- billing and
:12:40. > :12:45.breadth of this country. The people who care the most about Scotland
:12:45. > :12:49.should be the ones making the decisions about a nation's future.
:12:49. > :12:55.No one else is going to do a better job of making Scotland a success.
:12:55. > :12:59.No one else has a stake in the future that the people of Scotland
:12:59. > :13:03.should be in charge. Independence would give us the opportunity to
:13:04. > :13:07.make different decisions, to employment policies designed for
:13:07. > :13:12.Scotland. That means we will be able to make Scotland the country
:13:12. > :13:17.we all know we can be - a wealthier and fairer nation. A country that
:13:17. > :13:21.speaks with its own voice, a stance Toller and the world, takes
:13:21. > :13:28.responsibility for its own future. Independence is about Scotland
:13:28. > :13:34.rejoining the family of nations in her own right. We can be both
:13:34. > :13:38.independent and interdependent. We can stand on our own two feet was
:13:38. > :13:43.working with our friends and neighbours. When the United Nations
:13:43. > :13:47.were formed, they were just over 50 independent countries in the world.
:13:47. > :13:53.Today that figure has risen to almost 200. Of the 10 countries
:13:53. > :13:57.that have joined the European Union in 2004, the majority have become
:13:57. > :14:04.independence in 1990. And Scotland is bigger than six of them. All of
:14:04. > :14:10.these reasons now have a seat at the European top tables. Scotland's
:14:10. > :14:15.journey, a Home Rule journey, is clearly part of a bigger
:14:15. > :14:20.international journey. Independence is what we seek is individuals,
:14:20. > :14:24.whether it is our first car for a strong, it is a natural state for
:14:24. > :14:27.people across the world. Not being underpinned it is the exception.
:14:27. > :14:31.This Parliament in Edinburgh already takes a range of key
:14:31. > :14:37.decisions when it comes to running its schools or hospitals are police
:14:37. > :14:42.and much else besides. Independence will mean we are also responsible
:14:42. > :14:47.for raising our own money. Scotland is a land of unlimited potential,
:14:48. > :14:52.its culture and history, reputation for innovation are renowned
:14:52. > :14:57.throughout the world. Our universities are world class. Our
:14:57. > :15:05.energy resources are unrivalled in Europe. Indeed with current figures
:15:05. > :15:09.we would have the 6th how must gross GDP. With independence, we
:15:09. > :15:14.can have a new social union with the other nations of these islands.
:15:14. > :15:18.We will continue to share with Her Majesty at the Queen as head of
:15:18. > :15:22.state. But we will not have her young servicemen and women dragged
:15:22. > :15:30.into a legal war like Iraq and we will not have nuclear weapons
:15:30. > :15:34.placed on Scottish soil. Order! dependence will create anew modern
:15:34. > :15:39.relationship between the nations of these islands, a partnership of
:15:39. > :15:44.equals. I want Scotland to be independent, not because I think
:15:44. > :15:50.we're better than any other country. But because I know we are just as
:15:50. > :15:55.good as any other country. Like these other nations, our future and
:15:55. > :16:05.resources and our success should be in her own hands.
:16:05. > :16:11.
:16:12. > :16:16.Order! The First Minister will now take questions on the issues raised
:16:16. > :16:19.in his statement and the consultation paper. I intend to
:16:19. > :16:25.allow 40 minutes for questions after which we will move on to the
:16:25. > :16:29.next item of business. It would be helpful if members who wished ask a
:16:29. > :16:34.question should press the request to speak but are now. Can I say
:16:34. > :16:42.that time is tight. Can I ask that the questions and the answers be as
:16:42. > :16:47.a sink as possible. By Colin Johann Lamont. This on Burns's day I'd
:16:47. > :16:55.will reflect on my own party piece when I do reply to the toast of the
:16:55. > :17:00.lasses. I shall resist the temptation to give you some useful
:17:00. > :17:09.quotations today but to reflect that with Robert Burns as others
:17:09. > :17:13.called on us to be humble. I thank the First Minister for his
:17:13. > :17:16.statement. He will know that I asked to hold all-party talks and
:17:16. > :17:21.the referendums so everyone in our country could have confidence in
:17:21. > :17:26.that referendum and its outcome. We must recognise that we all love our
:17:26. > :17:31.country, whatever constitutional set we support. The most important
:17:31. > :17:35.thing is that whatever side wins the referendum, that the process is
:17:36. > :17:39.done in such a way that the day after it all Scots come together to
:17:39. > :17:43.fulfil our national duty to make Scotland dollar can be. I regret
:17:43. > :17:47.very much the Prime Minister has continued to decline these all-
:17:47. > :17:52.party talks that I have offered an sadly this consultation paper has
:17:52. > :17:57.done little for those who fear his process is not a fair one. The
:17:57. > :18:01.First Minister asserts is just his own view of the future of Scotland
:18:01. > :18:06.and misrepresents the position of those who want to remain in the
:18:06. > :18:10.United Kingdom. Indeed, he tries to define those who believe and
:18:10. > :18:13.evolution that in order to recognise that, they must have
:18:13. > :18:17.maximum devolution. Let those who disagree with Scotland be separated
:18:18. > :18:25.from the rest of the United Kingdom sheet their own position a let not
:18:25. > :18:28.the First Minister do find it for them. Does the First Minister
:18:28. > :18:33.recognise that both of us that want to stay in the United Kingdom what
:18:33. > :18:37.Scotland to be a strong country? Why does he belittle this pitch
:18:37. > :18:41.Scots and generations of Scots that say we are not equal partners with
:18:41. > :18:45.the other nations in the United Kingdom? Does he has satisfied that
:18:45. > :18:49.we all wish to be independent of each other when we all know that as
:18:49. > :18:54.families and communities you want to come together in partnership and
:18:54. > :18:59.co-operation. And those of us who argue for Scotland being strong in
:18:59. > :19:04.the United Kingdom are the first principles of co-operation and
:19:04. > :19:08.partnership, not about separating ourselves from others. And even at
:19:08. > :19:13.this late stage, given the willingness of the First Minister
:19:13. > :19:17.to meet with Westminster, to negotiate with Westminster, to meet
:19:17. > :19:20.with the world's press at Edinburgh Castle, which yet this lays it
:19:20. > :19:24.acknowledge the importance of coming together with the political
:19:24. > :19:28.parties are in here who represent the majority of Scots who do not
:19:28. > :19:33.support the separation of Scotland from the and -- crest of the United
:19:33. > :19:38.Kingdom. On the platform on which re-engage on a serious debate about
:19:38. > :19:46.the choices facing Scotland, not was his assertion of his position
:19:46. > :19:56.and his misrepresentation of those who disagree with them. First
:19:56. > :20:05.
:20:05. > :20:09.Minister. Can I be clear that the consultation document has been
:20:09. > :20:13.published, we are happy to talk with everyone. That is why we are
:20:13. > :20:18.publishing a consultation document. The consultation is not just for
:20:18. > :20:24.political parties. It is for the community of the realm of Scotland.
:20:24. > :20:28.I am sure that Johann Lamont has noted that many of the represent of
:20:28. > :20:33.Scotland have been speaking and coming forward over recent weeks,
:20:34. > :20:39.in particular some have been shipping their ideas of what they
:20:39. > :20:44.regard as a sensible proposition, not least of which is one of my
:20:44. > :20:48.predecessors Henry McLeish was being outspoken and this regard.
:20:48. > :20:52.The consultation document could not be clearer - we offer that
:20:52. > :20:56.opportunity to people who believe it who think like that to come
:20:56. > :21:03.forward with their ideas. Johann Lamont says I am trying to shake
:21:03. > :21:07.the policy of the Labour Party. I suppose the answer is somebody
:21:07. > :21:14.should be stating their policy of the Labour Party. When I last
:21:14. > :21:18.checked, the Labour Party policy was far the Scotland Bill which is
:21:18. > :21:21.currently going through The house of Parliament in Westminster,
:21:21. > :21:27.without the additions of the economic powers which were one of
:21:27. > :21:30.the things that we -- were so strongly supported by the people of
:21:30. > :21:35.Scotland in the recent elections. If she was to come forward with a
:21:35. > :21:40.further policy, I gently suggest to her that she get on with a process,
:21:40. > :21:47.otherwise it seems a cross of its Colin Butter range of people are
:21:47. > :21:52.going to get there first. Johann Lamont implies that I do not argue
:21:52. > :21:57.in the statement that independence and interdependence, they were part
:21:57. > :22:01.of the same process. That is exactly the point I was making. In
:22:01. > :22:05.terms of the argument about the equality of status, what I believe
:22:05. > :22:11.is that the relationship between equal independence Nations is a
:22:11. > :22:17.thoroughly healthy relationship to have. I do not have to look in
:22:17. > :22:20.their recent past to find a Labour spokesman and Labour politicians
:22:20. > :22:24.complaining when measures which were being against they will of the
:22:24. > :22:30.Scottish people have been enforced on this Parliament against its will.
:22:31. > :22:35.Only recently reunited as the Parliament to attempt to resist
:22:35. > :22:40.some aspects of the welfare to reform bill. I merely suggest that
:22:40. > :22:44.a relationship based on the equality of independent status
:22:44. > :22:48.would be fundamentally a better relationship across the silence
:22:48. > :22:58.than the rather unequal relationship that we have at the
:22:58. > :23:02.
:23:02. > :23:10.present moment. -- across these islands. To add like to thank him
:23:10. > :23:14.for his earlier statements. I would like to thank. This is running
:23:14. > :23:18.across the UK Government consultation. I would urge as many
:23:18. > :23:22.people to respond to Boz. The First Minister says that he should be
:23:22. > :23:28.judged on the mandate that he received from the people of
:23:28. > :23:31.Scotland last May. It is to hold a referendum of independence, a
:23:31. > :23:37.single straightforward question on whether we want to be a separate
:23:37. > :23:41.country or remain part of our United Kingdom. What the people of
:23:41. > :23:51.Scotland want and deserve is a fair, legal and decisive referendum held
:23:51. > :23:51.
:23:51. > :23:55.as soon as possible. But the men's -- the first was deposed as a fear
:23:55. > :24:04.of legal question. We need to make sure that it is asked in a League
:24:05. > :24:09.Two referendum. Will the co-operate with the UK Government? We want co-
:24:09. > :24:12.operation, not confrontation. An outcome decided by the voters of
:24:12. > :24:16.Scotland, not the law courts and a clear answer to the one question
:24:16. > :24:20.which will finally resolve the issue. Scotland wants to move on
:24:20. > :24:24.from the process of the referendum so we can look at the issues
:24:24. > :24:34.surrounding the sovereignty of our nation. The key questions the First
:24:34. > :24:34.
:24:34. > :24:39.Minister has been unable to answer on this column's currency,
:24:39. > :24:44.Scotland's relationship with the EU. The process matters as well. That
:24:44. > :24:48.is why I as a First Minister to enter into further discussions to
:24:48. > :24:51.ensure that Scotland seized also for governments, both of her
:24:51. > :24:56.Parliaments working together to resolve the remaining process
:24:56. > :25:04.issues so that it can then engage with the real debate - will he do
:25:04. > :25:10.so? Yes, I have said we will co- operate in the statement I have
:25:10. > :25:16.just made. Of course the offer of a section 30 is something that I will
:25:16. > :25:20.come. As the Conservative leader will understand, there are very few
:25:20. > :25:26.people in Scotland to think that offer it should be accompanied by a
:25:26. > :25:30.Westminster pulling the strings of Scotland's referendum. I don't
:25:30. > :25:36.understand why anyone in Westminster should be regarding
:25:36. > :25:42.that as a good thing to do. Already we have seen a substantial reaction
:25:42. > :25:48.against the apparent wish or the semblance from Westminster of
:25:48. > :25:54.attempting to dictate the terms of a referendum. Surely it is for this
:25:54. > :25:58.Parliament and the people of Scotland to decide. Can I remind
:25:58. > :26:04.the Conservative leader that her party went into our recent election
:26:04. > :26:07.opposed to any referendum. It does seem wretch that having opposed a
:26:08. > :26:12.referendum. Like it should now be in the position of the Conservative
:26:12. > :26:16.Party that the terms of a referendum should be dictated by
:26:16. > :26:20.air party and Parliament that consistently has a pose that in the
:26:20. > :26:24.first place. If the offer of the section 30 is meant in good faith,
:26:24. > :26:32.then that is the basis for co- operation. I would welcome the
:26:32. > :26:38.welcome! Could I draw her attention to the timetable which has been set
:26:38. > :26:43.out so clearly in the consultation document, which I believe sets out
:26:43. > :26:48.exactly why this is the timing required for a proper and full
:26:48. > :26:56.consideration of the most important decision that this nation has taken
:26:56. > :27:01.for 300 years. It sets out in detail the process. I noticed end
:27:01. > :27:06.the Government's consultations papers, the elements says should
:27:06. > :27:09.there be a question are questions in the referendum. I don't think
:27:09. > :27:14.she would want to give the impression that the United Kingdom
:27:15. > :27:18.Government have prejudged their own consultation. Can I point out,
:27:18. > :27:23.regardless of what many people outside of this chamber might
:27:23. > :27:30.believe, in that timetable we set out a process. In the UK
:27:30. > :27:35.Government's consultation there is no side saying that they managed to
:27:35. > :27:39.run what they call a successful AV referendum in the space of a year.
:27:39. > :27:43.If roughening a referendum is running a referendum on a policy
:27:43. > :27:47.that nobody supported in a way that thoroughly confuse the electorate
:27:47. > :27:50.and which had a low turnout and every part of the country which
:27:50. > :27:54.wasn't having Parliamentary elections, then maybe that is good
:27:54. > :27:58.enough for her friends at Westminster. I think Scotland's
:27:58. > :28:02.referendum should be based on the process and the timetable that has
:28:02. > :28:10.been set out of this document which will allow all of the people of
:28:10. > :28:15.Scotland to contribute first issue to the process, to determine their
:28:15. > :28:20.legislation next year and to get a decision after that. The most
:28:20. > :28:30.important decision this nation has taken in 300 years. Let's do this
:28:30. > :28:30.
:28:30. > :28:34.and a careful, proper and I find the First Minister for an
:28:35. > :28:38.advance copy of the statement. Today we will seek much pomp, much
:28:38. > :28:45.ceremony at the castle but we will still have fewer answers about
:28:45. > :28:50.independent. It is more Shakespeare than Burns. Much of -- Much Ado
:28:50. > :28:55.About Nothing. Whilst independence dominates the work of his
:28:55. > :29:02.government, our country is gripped by an employment and rising costs.
:29:02. > :29:07.I want home rule within the UK family. But can the UK for -- First
:29:07. > :29:11.Minister told me if devo max got 99% of the vote, would his
:29:11. > :29:19.government guarantee to honour the wishes and will the Scottish
:29:19. > :29:27.people? First Minister. Given that the Liberal leader does not want
:29:27. > :29:33.the option on the ballot paper... Sometimes I think it a son
:29:33. > :29:38.advantage and sometimes I think is a disadvantage. -- sometimes I
:29:38. > :29:42.think it is an advantage. I have got a very clear memory of
:29:42. > :29:47.luminaries such as Lord Steel arguing passionately in the House
:29:47. > :29:52.of Commons for having a multi- option referendum. I remember a
:29:52. > :29:57.Liberal Party campaigning in the 1990s overtly for a multi-option
:29:57. > :30:02.referendum. There are a range of ways and it is not beyond the wit
:30:02. > :30:05.of man to devise a referendum which has a clear answer but does not
:30:05. > :30:11.deny the body of opinion in Scotland the opportunity to have
:30:11. > :30:15.their option on the ballot paper. In terms of quoting the Bard,
:30:16. > :30:20.either from south of the border or north of the border, I was rather
:30:20. > :30:30.struck by a burnt' view on coalition government. -- Robert
:30:30. > :30:34.
:30:34. > :30:39.Byrne's view. A queer hotch potch, Thank you, Presiding Officer. The
:30:39. > :30:43.referendums to Scotland take a place in the world as an
:30:43. > :30:46.independent nation. Can the business to confirm that Anand than
:30:46. > :30:52.touch of that is that Scotland can be a nation without the obscenity
:30:52. > :31:02.of nuclear weapons within her waters? Yes, I can and yes, it will
:31:02. > :31:06.be. La snap the First Minister spoke about the relationship --
:31:06. > :31:08.last night, with the rest of the UK. Can he reassure businesses and
:31:08. > :31:18.constituents that an independent Scotland will be the best friend
:31:18. > :31:18.
:31:18. > :31:23.and neighbour to the UK? Yes, I can. I have to say that the response to
:31:23. > :31:27.that argument seems to be rather more positive among our friends
:31:27. > :31:33.south of the border than it does to the opposition parties in this
:31:33. > :31:36.chamber. The idea of a country standing on its own two feet co-
:31:36. > :31:40.operating with its friends and neighbours is not something that
:31:40. > :31:45.many people in England find difficult to understand. Therefore
:31:45. > :31:48.perhaps it is surprising that if you people in this chamber have
:31:48. > :31:57.trouble with that internationally recognised an extremely common
:31:57. > :32:00.concept. I am pleased that the Government's consultation document
:32:00. > :32:03.published today which show acknowledges that formal
:32:03. > :32:09.negotiations will be opened with the EU by an independent Scotland
:32:09. > :32:13.and many of us have known that that would be the case. Were the First
:32:13. > :32:18.Minister, having conceded that principle, now publish the legal
:32:18. > :32:25.advice that he commissioned in this regard? I have referred in this
:32:25. > :32:30.chamber and can refer again a range of legal authorities to support the
:32:30. > :32:34.Scottish Government's position. But to correct, the point is that
:32:34. > :32:44.negotiations will be held within the context of the European Union.
:32:44. > :32:46.
:32:46. > :32:49.The precise point was made best by Lord Mackenzie Stuart. If there...
:32:50. > :32:53.If the union is dissolved it creates two successor states each
:32:53. > :32:57.of which will have the same obligations and rights as the other
:32:57. > :33:01.state, both of which will negotiate their position from within the
:33:01. > :33:05.context of the European Union. I can say to Patricia Ferguson, there
:33:06. > :33:09.is no evidence whatsoever that there is any body of opinion across
:33:09. > :33:12.the European Union that would not welcome but Scotland than the west
:33:12. > :33:21.of -- the rest of the UK into continuing membership of that
:33:21. > :33:27.organisation. First Minister, you and I are both
:33:27. > :33:31.old enough unfortunately to remember the 1939 referendum. By
:33:32. > :33:36.process gerrymandered by a Westminster Parliament. If this
:33:36. > :33:41.process is to have any... Order, please that has hear the member.
:33:41. > :33:46.must be developed in Scotland rather than constricted by a
:33:46. > :33:51.Westminster. Does he therefore believe that it is essential that
:33:51. > :33:55.is as broad across Scotland is possible involved in shaping this
:33:55. > :33:58.referendum through consultation, evidence taken, debate within and
:33:59. > :34:04.without this Parliament? Something much more likely to happen to a
:34:04. > :34:14.Scottish Parliament than any UK Parliament. First Minister.
:34:14. > :34:17.
:34:17. > :34:21.remember two things particularly about 1979. I remember the 40% rule.
:34:22. > :34:25.Introduced into the franchise and supported by the Conservative Party
:34:25. > :34:29.and introduced by a Labour Member of Parliament called George
:34:29. > :34:34.Cunningham. A process which was quite uncommon then that is
:34:34. > :34:38.becoming ever more common in the current House of Commons and I also
:34:38. > :34:42.remember well Douglas-Home, former Prime Minister, telling the people
:34:42. > :34:46.of Scotland that they should vote against because he was sure that a
:34:46. > :34:51.better form of government was coming forward very soon. Something
:34:51. > :34:55.which the people of Scotland waited for in the long years of government
:34:55. > :34:59.of Margaret Thatcher and John Major. Those of us with long enough
:34:59. > :35:09.memories will not be taken in by any such ruse again.
:35:09. > :35:09.
:35:09. > :35:18.APPLAUSE Richard Baker to be followed by Stuart Matt Mullan. The
:35:18. > :35:23.Thatcher government the SNP ushered in. In Paris three, editor of the
:35:23. > :35:27.referendum is -- paragraph 3 the days of the referendum is "insert
:35:27. > :35:34.date here. Can you guarantee the referendum will not be held later
:35:34. > :35:38.this autumn 2014? Yes, I can. It will be held on the timetable which
:35:38. > :35:43.has been outlined. I suggest that Richard Baker reads that timetable
:35:43. > :35:48.and then I would be genuinely interested... I think it would be
:35:48. > :35:51.difficult to do, if we have here to the requirements or at least the
:35:51. > :35:55.suggestions of the Gould Commission in terms of the timing after
:35:55. > :35:57.legislation in which road should be held, it would be extremely
:35:57. > :36:01.difficult to short circuit that time period. I don't think we
:36:01. > :36:04.should do so, we should have proper consideration on the timetable that
:36:04. > :36:10.is set which comes to the referendum date in the autumn of
:36:10. > :36:15.2014. I am not sure of Richard Baker's activity in politics way
:36:15. > :36:21.back in 1979 but can I commend him to read the autobiography of James
:36:21. > :36:26.Culligan, the Labour Prime Minister -- James Callaghan. He actually
:36:26. > :36:36.blamed Labour devolutionists of the downfall of his government. Perhaps
:36:36. > :36:39.
:36:39. > :36:43.The consultation proposals giving all those living in Scotland and
:36:43. > :36:46.electoral roll the right to vote. I was born in Barrow-in-Furness
:36:46. > :36:50.therefore in England but the First Minister encourage all those in
:36:50. > :36:58.Scotland no matter where you come from two joined the debate between
:36:58. > :37:01.now and 2014. I think there is an important point. The people of
:37:01. > :37:06.Scotland are those who live in Scotland, have chosen to make their
:37:06. > :37:10.home and livelihood is collared, pay Scottish taxes and a part of
:37:10. > :37:14.the Scottish Community of the realm. That is the right franchise to have
:37:15. > :37:21.in a referendum. It conforms to other international experiences. It
:37:21. > :37:29.is the right things to do. We are not interested where people come
:37:29. > :37:33.from, we are interested in where we are going together as a country.
:37:33. > :37:37.someone who signed the vote 16 pledge, I would like to ask the
:37:37. > :37:41.First Minister about that particular aspect of the franchise.
:37:41. > :37:48.Can you clarify whether voters at 16 would require 14 and 15-year-
:37:48. > :37:53.olds to be added to the public electoral roll? Is so, how does his
:37:53. > :37:57.government approach the child- protection issues arising?
:37:57. > :38:01.process is not only laid out in the document and I suggest it is read
:38:02. > :38:05.by the member but of course the practices already being carried
:38:05. > :38:12.forward in the health board elections. Without any difficulty
:38:12. > :38:18.whatsoever. I really think that if the member is now saying that the
:38:18. > :38:21.Labour Party supports votes for 16 and 17-year-olds except in the case
:38:21. > :38:25.of the Scottish referendum, then they had better explain what they
:38:25. > :38:32.were doing at the House of Commons supporting an amendment to allow 16
:38:32. > :38:35.and 17-year-olds to support in the AB referendum. I really think the
:38:35. > :38:39.days of saying one thing in this chamber and another in the House of
:38:39. > :38:45.Commons are over for the Labour Party. Although I have to say,
:38:45. > :38:49.given the embarrassment that must be a Crosby Labour benches in the
:38:49. > :38:53.House of Commons siding with the Tories on every single issue, I can
:38:53. > :38:59.well understand why they would like to exclusion cells -- across the
:38:59. > :39:03.Labour benches. To exclude themselves. I would like to ask the
:39:03. > :39:07.31st minister if his government intends to falsify the opinions or
:39:07. > :39:16.any other constitutional experts -- First Minister, in order to justify
:39:16. > :39:21.a model multi- option referendum. Here was I thinking that David
:39:21. > :39:27.would lead his party and rise to the occasion but David has
:39:27. > :39:30.disappointed me on many occasions and does so again. I think the
:39:30. > :39:35.record of the Conservative Party and its approach to referendum not
:39:35. > :39:39.least in the 40% rule is one which David would do well to reflect on
:39:39. > :39:44.but I hope that even he will look at the paper in the consultation
:39:44. > :39:49.paper which has been published and whatever else he may say or do or
:39:49. > :39:54.agree with, it sets out a process which is above and beyond reproach.
:39:54. > :39:58.The Annabelle Ewing to be followed by Neil Findlay. I would like to
:39:58. > :40:02.thank the First Minister for his statement. It is clear to me that
:40:02. > :40:06.independence would deliver to this Parliament the powers we need to
:40:06. > :40:11.ensure a prosperous Scotland. Can the First Minister confirm that
:40:11. > :40:14.ahead of the vote in autumn 2014, the Scottish Government will come
:40:14. > :40:17.forward with the prospectus such that we can ensure that there is a
:40:17. > :40:23.comprehensive debate in which all the people of Scotland will be
:40:23. > :40:31.fully engaged? Yes, I can and it is in the timetable laid out in the
:40:31. > :40:36.document. We are following the process which is similar to the
:40:36. > :40:40.1997 paper which a white paper saw being published. The White Paper
:40:40. > :40:48.gives people people range of information they argue and entitled
:40:48. > :40:54.to in terms of up deciding on their vote. And that is set in the White
:40:54. > :40:58.Paper next year and the timetable of the consultation paper. He will
:40:58. > :41:02.friendly. Given that the 1 o'clock gun has been fired to start the
:41:02. > :41:06.process of yet another constitutional consultation, for
:41:06. > :41:11.the First Minister take some time to reflect on how he wants this to
:41:11. > :41:15.proceed? Does he agree with me that party members and supporters on all
:41:15. > :41:22.sides should have an informed debate devoid of personal attacks
:41:22. > :41:30.on those individuals who may hold a different view? Yes, I do. Chris
:41:30. > :41:34.ingrained. Thank you. Given the proximity of my constitution see --
:41:34. > :41:38.constituency to the English border, come the First Minister confirm
:41:38. > :41:40.that the current harmonious sharing of services English Patient to the
:41:41. > :41:46.border general hospital and Scottish elderly to care homes in
:41:46. > :41:55.Berwick will continue upon independence? Yes, I can. Lewis
:41:56. > :42:00.Macdonald. Thank you. Can the First Minister confirm that the
:42:00. > :42:04.referendum did so on the basis of a detailed scheme of devolution which
:42:04. > :42:08.was put in place within a few short months of the election of the then
:42:08. > :42:12.Labour government? And the First Minister tell us why it is that he
:42:12. > :42:15.believes that this Parliament is incapable of even considering the
:42:15. > :42:22.responses to this consultation and passing the Referendum Bill
:42:22. > :42:25.published today in draft for a further 18 months or are the
:42:25. > :42:29.Scottish people not capable of having a debate on that for a
:42:29. > :42:32.further year? Will he consider having a look at the timetable or
:42:32. > :42:41.consider the question being asked this afternoon, tell a specifically
:42:41. > :42:45.the date on which to hold the referendum? I think the timetable
:42:45. > :42:49.is detailed. Lewis Macdonald will be good to consider that the
:42:49. > :42:54.legislation has to go through this Parliament in a proper fashion. I
:42:54. > :42:57.have lost count in the number of times of other matters brought to
:42:57. > :43:02.this Parliament, particularly legal matters, where the Parliament I
:43:02. > :43:06.think rightly has had to adopt a short and procedure. IC no reason
:43:06. > :43:10.why there should be in the Referendum Bill an icy that Lewis
:43:10. > :43:13.Macdonald is agreeing with that. I have build this into the timetable
:43:13. > :43:16.published in the consultation document and I would commend it to
:43:16. > :43:20.Lewis Macdonald because I think any reasonable reading, and that
:43:21. > :43:28.timetable includes the publication of the white paper and that we are
:43:28. > :43:35.following exactly President of 1997. I hope we can have a genuine debate
:43:35. > :43:39.-- the conditions of 1997. I disagree with him in terms of the
:43:39. > :43:43.nature of how the referendum in 1997 was presented. I think it was
:43:43. > :43:48.absolutely imperative in terms of the success of that referendum not
:43:48. > :43:51.to present self government of devolution and self government of
:43:51. > :43:56.independence as opposites to each other and that is why I was able to
:43:56. > :44:00.stand with Donald do on a platform and both of us argue together in a
:44:00. > :44:07.way which did not allow the no complain to divide us. I really
:44:08. > :44:10.would come penned -- men him to -- meant him to go back at how that
:44:10. > :44:13.debate was allowed to approach. Perhaps other in his benches may
:44:14. > :44:22.well be able to stand shoulder to shoulder again when we get to the
:44:22. > :44:27.campaign proper. The as the First Minister agree that Westminster
:44:28. > :44:31.attaching conditions is unacceptable and might be
:44:31. > :44:40.considered playing politics with an offer made ostensibly to achieve
:44:40. > :44:44.legal some urgency was. People my it, to that decision but I have to
:44:44. > :44:49.say and Michael Moore has made it clear that the objective of a
:44:49. > :44:53.section 30 order is merely to be helpful. To enable this party
:44:53. > :44:58.therefore if that is made in a genuine way and if the consultation
:44:58. > :45:05.is genuine, asking people questions about one questions or to questions,
:45:05. > :45:09.then negotiation should present us with that. If it is a genuine offer
:45:09. > :45:18.to enable this Palmer to fulfil the mandate that we undoubtably have, I
:45:18. > :45:21.think most people would not take kindly to the idea of strings in
:45:21. > :45:31.this Parliament or this country in terms of a decision on our future
:45:31. > :45:36.
:45:36. > :45:40.I welcome today's consultation. I am sure many people who came to
:45:40. > :45:44.support independence on the issue of Trident. Does the prefers
:45:44. > :45:49.Minister agree with me that those voters need to know more than just
:45:49. > :45:53.the current Government's policy? They will need to have certainty
:45:54. > :45:57.that no future Scottish Government either after the referendum our
:45:57. > :46:05.next election will be able to put the issue of Trident back on the
:46:05. > :46:10.table and strike a table -- deal with the continued existence of
:46:10. > :46:16.Trident? Will he consider a prohibition on a future Scottish
:46:16. > :46:20.Government on striking such a deal? In technical terms, one Government
:46:20. > :46:26.is not able in this Parliament or any Parliament to bind its
:46:26. > :46:34.successors which would have to be voted on by the people of Scotland.
:46:34. > :46:38.It is inconceivable that a nation we tolerate the continued presence
:46:38. > :46:43.of weapons of mass destruction on its soil. I do not believe that any
:46:43. > :46:47.Government that puts forward such a proposition would be elected by the
:46:47. > :46:50.people of Scotland. I think Patrick Harvie and I will have to express
:46:50. > :46:58.our joint trust on the good judgement and wisdom of the people
:46:58. > :47:02.of Scotland on who the light and for what purpose. The First
:47:02. > :47:05.Minister has set out a timetable leading us through an independence
:47:05. > :47:09.referendum to we first Scottish General Election. Does he agree
:47:09. > :47:13.that if the people of Scotland vote for independence then it would be
:47:13. > :47:17.for all parties in this chamber and beyond to put forward their
:47:17. > :47:20.positive vision about how best we can use those powers so that the
:47:20. > :47:25.sovereign right of the people of Scotland can fully determined not
:47:25. > :47:34.only the type, the form of Government are the type of Gorman
:47:34. > :47:40.best suited to the needs? -- type of Government I sop an interview at
:47:40. > :47:44.of Johann Lamont during the leadership campaign. She wasn't
:47:45. > :47:48.saying she supported at but in the context of an independent Scotland,
:47:48. > :47:53.the Labour Party would put forward a policy programme that was in the
:47:53. > :48:00.best interests of the Scottish people. I take Arata word and that
:48:00. > :48:05.would be a view of all parties and therefore you can be reassured. All
:48:05. > :48:09.people -- politicians a want to serve the people of Scotland,
:48:09. > :48:17.whatever the constitutional context, I think that is no assurance that
:48:17. > :48:23.is shared across this chamber. -- that is an assurance. It is
:48:23. > :48:28.important that any referendum is legally competent and is not just
:48:28. > :48:32.an opinion poll. Will the First Minister state what advice he has
:48:32. > :48:40.taken from the Lord Advocate on the referendum been legally binding and
:48:40. > :48:46.whether he will publish such advice? Can I give you some general
:48:46. > :48:51.advice. There is no such thing as a binding referendum in the pure
:48:51. > :48:55.sense and the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom principle is the
:48:55. > :49:05.sovereignty of the Queen in Parliament. Whatever a Government
:49:05. > :49:06.
:49:06. > :49:11.does or doesn't do, they have been done as consultative referendums.
:49:11. > :49:17.Most Democrats, most parties acknowledge they will of the people.
:49:18. > :49:22.That is why the referendum has for us. In terms of the question on
:49:22. > :49:27.legal advice, no Government that I know of, the only example I can
:49:27. > :49:33.think of his Iraq, by the publishers are confirms these
:49:33. > :49:38.things. Every document that the Scottish Government has published
:49:38. > :49:46.confirms to their legal position as we know it. We would not be
:49:46. > :49:51.publishing the documents otherwise. I congratulate the First Minister
:49:51. > :49:54.on his speech and the clear intention with which she has just
:49:54. > :49:58.exemplified to state that the Scots have a choice between the
:49:58. > :50:01.sovereignty of the Queen and Parliament and that Parliament as
:50:01. > :50:06.the Parliament at Westminster and the sovereignty of the people of
:50:06. > :50:10.Scotland. We represent them at a limited ways of course because it
:50:10. > :50:16.is Westminster who has decided how far we should fail to govern
:50:16. > :50:20.ourselves. I think that is what is the issue of minds of Scots at the
:50:20. > :50:25.moment. They lack the confidence that we could govern ourselves
:50:25. > :50:30.properly. Therefore can the First Minister assure me that during this
:50:31. > :50:35.fair referendum, affair contrast with the pit between what we know
:50:35. > :50:40.we can get if we vote for the continuation of the union, like the
:50:40. > :50:46.worst health statistics in Europe, are men and women's centre fight in
:50:46. > :50:49.wars we should have nothing to do with, low rates of growth and a
:50:49. > :50:53.continuous for station as exemplified in this Parliament in
:50:53. > :50:58.the many petty things that we are not allowed to do as a sovereign
:50:58. > :51:01.Parliament. If he contrasts that with what we should be to do to
:51:01. > :51:07.achieve our optimum as a nation among stations, co-operating with
:51:07. > :51:11.those we have most in Government with, he is likely to have the
:51:11. > :51:17.outcome of the referendum by the seat. Finally, will they have
:51:17. > :51:27.nothing to do with the second question. He can deliver the answer.
:51:27. > :51:27.
:51:28. > :51:33.I am grateful for 90% of Margot's question. I know that her voice
:51:33. > :51:38.will be clearly heard both from the process of the agreeing of the
:51:39. > :51:43.terms of that referendum and the conduct of the referendum Ref --
:51:43. > :51:48.itself. There are signs in Scottish politics that the people of
:51:48. > :51:52.Scotland want to hear positive arguments correctly deployed. I
:51:52. > :51:57.think the success of the SNP and last year's election in particular
:51:57. > :52:07.was an assertion that a positive vision of the future would triumph
:52:07. > :52:10.
:52:10. > :52:19.over a negative campaign. In those circumstances negative campaign is
:52:19. > :52:23.-- campaigns... I think if we hold to that positive vision of the
:52:23. > :52:31.future of Scotland then I think we will triumph over any negative
:52:31. > :52:41.campaigning that merely pulled against us. -- may be levelled.
:52:41. > :52:42.
:52:42. > :52:46.relation to the franchise, can I ask about the not -- non-voters.
:52:46. > :52:52.Given that these people often come from the most deprived communities
:52:52. > :52:57.which have most to gain from Scottish independence. There is a
:52:57. > :53:02.section where we put forward an idea in terms of increasing turnout.
:53:02. > :53:04.I do agree with them. Increasing turnout is not just about the
:53:04. > :53:12.facilitation and making it easier for people to attend a polling
:53:12. > :53:17.station. It is also about motivation and the wish of people
:53:17. > :53:20.to turn out and have a say. It is wise to turn our attention to that.
:53:20. > :53:25.I would talk that the response to this paper will be strong indeed.
:53:25. > :53:30.It will signal agree level of interest among our fellow citizens.
:53:30. > :53:33.He is right to point out that it is in everyone's interest that the
:53:33. > :53:38.turnout in the referendum is maximise, that as many people as
:53:38. > :53:42.possible are able to vote, and he is correct to draw attention to the
:53:42. > :53:48.idea that people have to be motivated to vote to feel that
:53:48. > :53:53.their vote will make a difference to the future. From answers to
:53:53. > :53:56.Parliamentary questions we know that the Scottish Government spent
:53:56. > :53:59.�400,000 on the last historic consultation, the national
:53:59. > :54:03.conversation, if not including staff time. How much more public
:54:03. > :54:08.money will be spent on the independence question between now
:54:08. > :54:12.and there spending limits coming into effect? Will any Government
:54:12. > :54:17.money be spent on others including groups outside Parliament to
:54:17. > :54:26.develop almost the not quite independence options? Can I say it
:54:26. > :54:30.to hem, I think when you look at Scottish Government expenditure, it
:54:30. > :54:33.is a mere fleabite compared to it - - compared to the extraordinary
:54:33. > :54:37.expenditure of the last Labour Government and the present
:54:37. > :54:42.coalition Government to seem to be staffing the entire Downing Street
:54:42. > :54:46.with special advisers whose job it seems to be to intervene in the
:54:46. > :54:50.referendum campaign. Even people who until recently advisers in this
:54:50. > :54:54.very Parliament. So when it comes to looking at the efficient use of
:54:54. > :55:01.public money, then I think this party has a lot to commend it.
:55:01. > :55:04.Perhaps that is one reason for the election result last year. Good
:55:04. > :55:07.afternoon from the politics Scotland studio on the day the
:55:07. > :55:11.First Minister outlines his vision for the forthcoming referendum on
:55:11. > :55:16.independence. We have heard from Alex Salmond and the opposition
:55:16. > :55:23.parties. Let's get some analysis from Brian Taylor. Eyes to joining
:55:23. > :55:29.us. Any major surprises are is this what you expected? It is what we
:55:29. > :55:33.expected. This on page 12. That is what the ballot paper could look
:55:33. > :55:40.like be in its simplest form. It says, do you agree that Scotland
:55:40. > :55:43.should be an independent country - yes or no? That is the clear,
:55:43. > :55:47.simple straightforward question that Alex Salmond is putting
:55:47. > :55:51.forward. But a couple of issues arise from that. It seems that that
:55:51. > :55:56.form of question is only feasible according to Mr Salmond and there
:55:56. > :55:59.is a transfer of legal powers from Westminster to Holyrood. The so-
:55:59. > :56:04.called Section 30 transfer. The paper indicates that if that does
:56:04. > :56:07.not happen there are strings attached by Westminster then they
:56:07. > :56:12.would revert to the form of question in an earlier document
:56:12. > :56:14.that was talking about enabling the Scottish Parliament to move beyond
:56:14. > :56:19.existing powers towards independence, in other words are
:56:19. > :56:24.more muddied question. The other issue is the business of the
:56:24. > :56:28.electoral commission. It is being said they will be in charge of
:56:28. > :56:33.monitoring and scrutinising the report. Those who have been through
:56:33. > :56:40.it in detail have been pointing out that the list of response will --
:56:40. > :56:45.responsibilities do not appear at this stage to includes rolling upon
:56:45. > :56:49.-- ruling on whether the questions affair are not. That comes in at
:56:49. > :56:54.the campaign stage. Something we will clarify as the day goes on.
:56:54. > :56:58.The UK Government had other issues about the franchise and the date.
:56:58. > :57:02.What was Mr Salmond thing about that? On the franchise he was
:57:02. > :57:10.allowing 16 and 17 year-olds to vote. And the entitlement of being
:57:10. > :57:17.allowed to vote to be based on residency. I think we will push
:57:17. > :57:23.hard for of 16 and 17 year-olds to vote. They will push on the date.
:57:23. > :57:27.Mr Salmond is adamant on autumn 2014. He does not believe that we
:57:27. > :57:30.it would be sensible to be going to the people of Scotland with the
:57:30. > :57:38.proposition of independence right now when there is such economic
:57:38. > :57:42.uncertainty. Therefore to divert this took autumn 2014. It is in
:57:42. > :57:46.line with a promise he made earlier. We had the Prime Minister saying he
:57:46. > :57:55.was to get on with it. He wants it earlier than later. I do not think
:57:55. > :58:03.the UK Government cant and force that sooner than later pish. I
:58:03. > :58:09.think bottom 2014. I reckon the franchise will be on residence. Do
:58:09. > :58:13.I think it 1617 year-old? I'm not sure. An important day in Holyrood.
:58:13. > :58:19.A lot of international media what is happening later on this
:58:19. > :58:23.afternoon? I am going up to the castle later on where the first
:58:23. > :58:28.Minster is holding an international media conference to publish the
:58:28. > :58:36.document here, the consultation paper. The consultation is open to
:58:36. > :58:41.all the people of Scotland. It is open for them to write to, to the
:58:41. > :58:45.administration headquarters. I am sure that everyone hopes that this
:58:45. > :58:49.consultation is as widespread as possible. The UK Government under
:58:49. > :58:53.Michael Moore have publish their own consultation paper. Widely in
:58:53. > :58:57.the same areas but coming to different conclusions of the
:58:57. > :59:02.referendum. There is an opportunity to have all these discussions at
:59:02. > :59:12.the same time. There also be negotiations taking place directly.
:59:12. > :59:17.Here as we heard between the parties here and their Scottish and
:59:17. > :59:27.UK Government. Just one small snag, the Scottish secretary has chicken
:59:27. > :59:28.
:59:28. > :59:33.Let's get some analysis from our two guests in the studio. Thank you
:59:33. > :59:37.for joining us. To you, John. Your general reaction first. What did
:59:37. > :59:43.you get out of the First Minister's statement? The first thing to
:59:44. > :59:46.understand strategically about the statement and the consultation
:59:46. > :59:50.document is that this is perfectly clear that the Scottish Government
:59:50. > :59:55.accept that they are involved in a negotiation with the UK Government.
:59:55. > :59:59.These are proposals that could only be implemented if both sides would
:59:59. > :00:03.agree if indeed a so-called Section 30 orders made under the Scotland
:00:03. > :00:13.Act because certainly the referendum question which Mr Sam
:00:13. > :00:17.and wants would not be legal within the existing terms -- Mr Burns.
:00:17. > :00:24.Hacienda nothing in the consultation to do that and my view
:00:24. > :00:27.is that he has probably has -- has he done anything. You read the fine
:00:27. > :00:31.body tell, there would not be many people who would be able to vote in
:00:31. > :00:38.the first place. What I thought would be the sticking point is
:00:38. > :00:43.whether there should be one question or two. There is a crucial
:00:43. > :00:46.difference between this and the paper published two years ago.
:00:47. > :00:53.There and no details about what the question might look like or how it
:00:53. > :00:57.might be decided if both questions are on the ballot paper. I think
:00:57. > :01:04.the truth is that the consultation is going to have to come to some
:01:04. > :01:13.pretty firm evidence that people want, if it were to be the only
:01:13. > :01:17.issue that stands between him and Westminster for. You spotted a
:01:17. > :01:21.footnote on devo max, what is that? I agree with John, there is no de
:01:21. > :01:25.tell about how the question would be phrased. But there is a
:01:25. > :01:30.paragraph about what devo max might look like. It was similar to the
:01:30. > :01:35.earlier document. No real change there. In terms of the referendum
:01:35. > :01:40.ballot paper, there is a footnote which makes reference to the
:01:41. > :01:45.international examples. For example, the New Zealand example. It was a
:01:45. > :01:51.question first on the principle first of change, do not want it or
:01:51. > :02:00.not? And the second questioned gave different options. But suggest they
:02:00. > :02:04.are open to include do this on the ballot paper and also as an
:02:04. > :02:07.alternative option. The Unionist parties would object straight away
:02:07. > :02:11.if there were many questions because they say it is whether or
:02:12. > :02:15.not we have independence and the referendum in terms of do you want
:02:15. > :02:21.a change or not, they would say that is not the real choice before
:02:21. > :02:25.Scotland. If Mr Salmond can continue with this,... By up with
:02:25. > :02:29.you two in a moment. It was one of those moments and the Scottish
:02:29. > :02:32.Parliament, a significant time in the story of constitutional change.
:02:32. > :02:37.But hear the reaction from the opposition parties and we are
:02:38. > :02:42.joined by the Labour leader, Johann Lamont, Ruth Davidson and the
:02:42. > :02:46.Liberal Democrat leader. Good afternoon to you all. Johann Lamont,
:02:46. > :02:51.you're criticising the First Minister for not taking you up on
:02:51. > :02:56.your offer of cross-party talks. And you are claiming this process
:02:56. > :03:00.might not be fair. Why is that? from the beginning we have asked
:03:00. > :03:06.for an early referendum, and with a straight question that it's a
:03:06. > :03:10.straight result. People can have confidence in the result. 1979 is
:03:10. > :03:13.often cited as an example of a referendum that went wrong. Part of
:03:13. > :03:17.the message of that was that you have to be fair, give people the
:03:17. > :03:21.opportunity to make a choice and then everyone can accept the result.
:03:21. > :03:26.I am concerned to they that we remain in the same position. We
:03:26. > :03:28.have not got confidence through the First Minister's statement that the
:03:28. > :03:33.clear question independently scrutinised is going to be an offer.
:03:33. > :03:36.I am not sure if that is the case, looking at the document which is
:03:36. > :03:41.here in the draft Referendum Bill, it looks like it will be a very
:03:41. > :03:45.fair process with an Electoral Commission seeing it wrong by a
:03:45. > :03:49.board. I am sure the devil is in the detail and we want to look at
:03:49. > :03:52.it but I understand people are already expressing concerns
:03:52. > :03:55.precisely what the role of the Electoral Commission is. You must
:03:55. > :03:59.understand that they First Minister shifted to this position. He
:03:59. > :04:03.preferred his own body created by himself at one point to oversee his
:04:03. > :04:06.referendum. And some of this is being dictated by the First
:04:06. > :04:10.Minister's desire to control everything and my concern is that
:04:10. > :04:15.there has been an attempt to fix the question. We all want to know
:04:15. > :04:18.what the future is and everything must focus on making sure the
:04:18. > :04:25.referendum process is fair and seen to be there so people can accept
:04:25. > :04:27.the result and that is why I ask for all party, cross-party talks to
:04:27. > :04:30.shape the question and not simply responded to what the First
:04:30. > :04:36.Minister has offered us. Ruth Davidson from the Scottish
:04:36. > :04:41.Conservatives, you are calling for this referendum to be fair and
:04:41. > :04:45.legal as well. You listened to what Brian Taylor were as saying with
:04:45. > :04:49.the set-up set out today, we need the section 30 from the UK
:04:49. > :04:54.Government. Do you think seeing the details set out today, do you think
:04:54. > :04:57.the UK Government will be reminded to allow that to happen? We have
:04:57. > :05:01.seen more movement from the Scottish Government and the last
:05:01. > :05:05.two weeks family have seen in the last two years so I am glad to see
:05:05. > :05:10.there has been movement. I want to ensure they are in charge of the
:05:10. > :05:14.question. As well as the other areas. We have also seen movement
:05:14. > :05:16.from the First Minister in terms of whether it should be a single
:05:16. > :05:22.question or not. He says his preference is for that single
:05:22. > :05:27.question. That is my party position and it is also Johann Lamont's
:05:27. > :05:31.party position. It is the position or the one would and 29 people
:05:31. > :05:39.elected to the Scottish Parliament. What we have seen is some wriggle
:05:39. > :05:44.room -- 129 people. What we need is clarity but one thing we have seen
:05:44. > :05:47.movement on and this is important is that we want to see Scotland's
:05:47. > :05:50.two Parliament, governments working together. I am of the First
:05:50. > :05:53.Minister has finally recognised he does need to work with the UK
:05:53. > :05:57.Government to ensure that it is a legal referendum as well as fair.
:05:57. > :06:01.Will he Rennie from the Scottish Liberal Democrats, you have just
:06:01. > :06:04.picked up a press release saying this is much ado about nothing and
:06:04. > :06:08.a lot of answers still remain. The looks like we have got a lot of
:06:08. > :06:14.answers. I am hearing what your coalition colleague is saying, that
:06:14. > :06:22.we are moving closer to gaining answers. I think we have taken a
:06:22. > :06:26.step backwards and if you look at the 2010 consultation, they said at
:06:26. > :06:31.exactly how they proposed the question. The independence question
:06:31. > :06:34.and the devo max question. Now they say that they will seek advice on
:06:34. > :06:39.how to construct the devo max question. They have stepped back,
:06:39. > :06:42.quite rightly, I believe, because that devo max question would not be
:06:42. > :06:47.right, it would be treated as a second-class question. We have gone
:06:47. > :06:51.back from where we were before. By reference to Much Ado About Nothing
:06:51. > :06:56.is that we are still amid a consultation document and we don't
:06:56. > :06:58.really know the answers that people want about the substance. About
:06:58. > :07:02.independence, defence, foreign affairs. How we will pay for it.
:07:02. > :07:08.None of that stuff has come forward today. To be fair, this is a day
:07:08. > :07:11.about process, though. It is not about the sub-standard detail. The
:07:11. > :07:15.consultation says that the single question of do you agree that
:07:15. > :07:19.Scotland should be an independent country, is there a preferred
:07:19. > :07:23.question? Yes, they say that is the preferred question that they are
:07:23. > :07:28.still leaving open the door to a devo max question. Why would we put
:07:28. > :07:38.forward our own proposals in a referendum which would be treated a
:07:38. > :07:41.
:07:41. > :07:47.second class? 99% of the population, if they did, devo max, would you be
:07:47. > :07:50.prepared to follow that, he was not willing to support that. Johann
:07:50. > :07:54.Lamont from Labour, if you had cross-party talks, what kind of
:07:54. > :07:59.issues would be coming up? What issues do you still have about the
:07:59. > :08:02.franchise and the timing? I think the fundamental thing is about how
:08:02. > :08:07.straight forward the question is so people know they are making a
:08:07. > :08:10.choice between staying inside the UK or leaving it and confidence
:08:10. > :08:14.that this referendum made in Scotland and shipped by Scotland
:08:14. > :08:17.issued by more than at the Scottish Parliament itself and that there is
:08:18. > :08:21.genuinely independent scrutiny of that question. I think these are
:08:21. > :08:24.reasonable things to ask in a time we are asking people to make
:08:24. > :08:29.fundamental decisions. I don't think I agree with the First
:08:29. > :08:33.Minister today, the most important day for 300 years, quite
:08:33. > :08:37.significant issues have happened in the interim, women getting the vote
:08:37. > :08:41.for example. We were very keen that there is no charge laid against the
:08:41. > :08:46.referendum process that it is being fixed in order that people can
:08:46. > :08:50.engage with debates. Whatever the verdict of the Scottish people
:08:51. > :08:55.might be. Why not your MSPs was bringing up the cost of the
:08:55. > :09:02.referendum. What about the cost on spending during the course of the
:09:02. > :09:09.campaign? The limit is �250,000 for one political party. That is up
:09:10. > :09:18.�150,000. What is your reaction? Also I notice that any registered
:09:18. > :09:22.organisation past... This is the 4th consultation document. There is
:09:22. > :09:27.an issue about that and I want to make sure that everybody who
:09:27. > :09:33.engages in his political debate about the future of Scotland is not
:09:33. > :09:36.stop from having their voice heard. Just because of money. This has to
:09:36. > :09:45.be a referendum about the future of Scotland to put determined by the
:09:45. > :09:54.quality of the debate and the arguments put their future -- put
:09:54. > :09:58.forward for their voice. It seems that there and must be a stringent
:09:58. > :10:02.timetable which ends in 2014, it sounds like that is the earliest
:10:02. > :10:06.they can hold it. If you look at the timetable and what is in it,
:10:06. > :10:15.you will see that is not the case. They put forward a draft Bill today
:10:15. > :10:18.but they will not bring it forward and -- until the following year. We
:10:18. > :10:25.heard from a great amount of civic Scotland particularly the business
:10:25. > :10:28.community that once to have answers sooner than -- that would answer
:10:28. > :10:31.sooner rather than later. I think we should have it as soon as
:10:31. > :10:36.possible so we can have it settled and settle the question once and
:10:36. > :10:45.for and we can move on. Do you think you're coalition colleagues
:10:45. > :10:47.will be getting a little step closer to agreement. The First
:10:47. > :10:52.Minister needs to work with the UK Government to ensure that this
:10:52. > :10:55.referendum is not just fair and decisive but also legal. There is a
:10:55. > :11:00.meeting on Friday and one with the Prime Minister thereafter and this
:11:00. > :11:05.must be welcomed. We want consensus, not confrontation. We want to
:11:06. > :11:09.ensure this is a fair and decisive legal referendum. Scotland will not
:11:09. > :11:13.settle for anything less and we must move forward on that process.
:11:13. > :11:18.We want to get on to the proper debate about the real substantive
:11:18. > :11:21.issues of independence. Briefly on the same point, your colleague
:11:21. > :11:26.Michael Moore is meeting with the First Minister. Closer to
:11:26. > :11:29.agreement? I am confident there will be agreement. The fat the
:11:29. > :11:37.First Minister is prepared to talk about this issue to Michael Moore
:11:37. > :11:42.is the recognition of that. Johann Lamont from Labour, will he Rennie
:11:42. > :11:46.from the Scottish Liberal Democrats and Ruth Davidson from the Scottish
:11:46. > :11:51.Conservatives, thank you for joining me live from Holyrood. Our
:11:51. > :11:54.coverage will be continuing over on BBC Two Scotland in just a moment
:11:54. > :11:58.including the First Minister's press conference live from