Scottish Labour Party Conference

:00:20. > :00:23.Good afternoon and a very warm welcome to live coverage of the

:00:23. > :00:27.Scottish Labour party's spring conference. Delegates have been

:00:27. > :00:31.gathering in Dundee where they are awaiting the keynote speech from

:00:31. > :00:34.their leader, Johann Lamont. The party has undergone a period of

:00:34. > :00:40.soul-searching following the disastrous result in the Holyrood

:00:40. > :00:49.election. Much of the focus of the conference so far has been keeping

:00:49. > :00:53.Scotland in the union as debate rages on the referendum. Our

:00:53. > :00:58.political Korek -- editor, Brian Taylor, is standing by in Dundee.

:00:58. > :01:03.Good afternoon. A hometown event for you today. I usually ask you

:01:03. > :01:08.what is the mood of the conference. Are labour in the mood to fight

:01:08. > :01:13.back? It is a curious conference. They are bit apprehensive to say

:01:13. > :01:19.the least. Since those elections, pretty well every speech by a

:01:19. > :01:22.Labour leader has been prefaced by, we got a doing at Holyrood in May.

:01:22. > :01:26.There will be a different tone from Johann Lamont this afternoon. She

:01:26. > :01:31.will reflect on the heavy defeat but there will be a touch of,

:01:31. > :01:37.enough already. She will say that the time is now to talk about how

:01:37. > :01:40.you rebelled, and to remind delegates -- how you rebuild. And

:01:40. > :01:45.to reminded delegates that they are still here, they are still the

:01:45. > :01:49.Labour Party, campaigning for votes in Scotland. We will be hearing

:01:49. > :01:56.from Johann Lamont later in the afternoon. What is the main thrust

:01:56. > :02:00.of her speech likely to be? As Bryan talks about rebuilding.

:02:00. > :02:07.least according to the advanced releases, it is going to be the

:02:07. > :02:11.creation of a commission to look further at devolution and whether

:02:11. > :02:15.powers will be transferred. I think that illustrates one of her

:02:15. > :02:19.dilemmas. On the one hand she has inherited a party that indeed got a

:02:19. > :02:23.serious defeat last year, because it is a party many voters felt

:02:23. > :02:28.neither had a sense of direction, nor could be trusted to run the

:02:28. > :02:33.country effectively. To that extent, she has one obvious major job, to

:02:33. > :02:38.try to put the Labour Party back together again, and to persuade the

:02:38. > :02:44.public to invest its faith as a potential future government.

:02:45. > :02:48.Meanwhile, there is the debate about independence. The danger is

:02:48. > :02:52.that the party is going do end up spending a lot of time working out

:02:52. > :02:58.what his position is going to be in regards to the referendum, and

:02:58. > :03:02.perhaps not spending enough time reviving the Labour Party itself.

:03:02. > :03:08.As a politician, this is a key moment in her political career,

:03:08. > :03:14.this major speech to Conference. is a major moment for have. It is a

:03:14. > :03:20.big speech to make. I think I agree with John. Where having the Labour

:03:20. > :03:24.conference here in Dundee, and -- we are having the Labour conference.

:03:24. > :03:32.And up the road, there is the Liberal Democrat Conference. At

:03:32. > :03:37.both of them, Alex Salmond's proposal. Labour don't want to be

:03:37. > :03:45.in this position, they don't want to be in that situation of being

:03:45. > :03:49.defeated in Holyrood. But they were defeated heavily and they have to

:03:49. > :03:52.address Alex Salmond's challenge of independence. At the same time they

:03:52. > :03:57.have to posit an alternative to that. The commission that Johann

:03:57. > :04:01.Lamont is setting up will posit that alternative. She doesn't

:04:01. > :04:07.swallow whole the proposals for devolution max, or devolution plus,

:04:07. > :04:13.that we have described already. In an interview on the webcast, she

:04:13. > :04:17.was very sceptical indeed about transferring substantial tax powers.

:04:17. > :04:22.She felt it is only across the UK as a whole that you can equalise

:04:22. > :04:26.resources and revenues and thus, help the poorest.

:04:26. > :04:32.One of the key talking point is how Labour can seize the political

:04:32. > :04:36.momentum from the SNP. Since their defeat to Alex Salmond's party,

:04:36. > :04:46.they have changed leader and promised to listen more closely to

:04:46. > :04:51.voters. What will that mean for the One by one, they fell. Labour

:04:51. > :04:56.politician after Labour politician was unseated from once safe

:04:56. > :05:04.political purges. May 5th 2011 saw the party which wants dominated

:05:04. > :05:09.Scottish politics replaced by Alex Salmond's SNP. Johann Lamont is

:05:09. > :05:13.elected as leader of the Scottish Labour Party. Labour reacted with a

:05:13. > :05:18.new leader. Johann Lamont's challenge is enormous, to rebuild

:05:18. > :05:23.her party, its support, and take on the SNP. All this as a

:05:23. > :05:30.constitutional debate dominates got its politics. The result has been

:05:30. > :05:35.to -- Scottish politics. Her -- the result is her opposition to

:05:35. > :05:39.independence. We need to address the question of rogue landlords but

:05:39. > :05:43.we also need to look at what powers can go further down into our

:05:43. > :05:50.communities. The argument about good government is about how close

:05:50. > :05:59.it is to people. John Mason, Scottish National Party SNP, 10,128

:05:59. > :06:04.votes. One of the scalps belonged to Frank BT. He lost one of

:06:04. > :06:10.labour's safest seats. He now thinks it is time his party

:06:10. > :06:16.embraces its new powers. definition of what we want is

:06:16. > :06:19.important. In the number of opinion polls, the vast majority favour

:06:19. > :06:25.more powers for the Scottish Parliament, but not separation. I

:06:25. > :06:33.think we should be in tune with the Scottish electorate. Will open

:06:33. > :06:37.darling those discussions and we are clear that it is a process

:06:37. > :06:47.about whether Scotland want to be part of the United Kingdom or ought

:06:47. > :06:48.

:06:48. > :06:50.In the past, there has been a perception among some that the

:06:50. > :06:56.party since its most talented people to Westminster, leaving

:06:56. > :07:01.those at Holyrood looking south for instruction. It is daft to pretend

:07:01. > :07:06.it wasn't a problem in the past and it was seen that the Holyrood

:07:06. > :07:11.leader, the perception was that they all had to listen to London.

:07:11. > :07:15.We have a post devolution at London leader in Ed Miliband, he is very

:07:15. > :07:19.relaxed about it, the party is more relaxed and comfortable. We have

:07:19. > :07:23.seen the election of an all Scotland leader in Johann Lamont. I

:07:23. > :07:27.think we are moving into new territory. That his internal party

:07:27. > :07:32.politics. The next test of public opinion will be made's local

:07:32. > :07:36.elections. Labour could struggle to hold on to Glasgow, Scotland

:07:36. > :07:40.biggest local authority. If Labour hold on to this place, it will tell

:07:40. > :07:48.them they have stopped the SNP's momentum. If they lose it, it will

:07:48. > :07:55.be a crushing defeat, and last May's crushing election won't be

:07:55. > :07:58.the low point after all. Let's look at Labour's defeat. And

:07:59. > :08:03.looking at Douglas Alexander, as he was trying to rebuild the party,

:08:03. > :08:08.and not look defeat in the face again. How difficult a job is it

:08:08. > :08:13.for Labour to try to rebuild? have a very difficult task because

:08:13. > :08:16.they did suffer a very severe beating. I think it is pretty clear,

:08:16. > :08:20.if one analyses the defeat, what the Labour Party has to do and the

:08:20. > :08:24.mistakes that were made in the past. The first is partly an issue of

:08:24. > :08:28.personnel. It is partly a consequence of historical accident

:08:28. > :08:34.but it is also systemic. The SNP have their first 11 in the Holyrood

:08:34. > :08:39.Parliament. It had very few parliamentarians before 1999 and

:08:39. > :08:43.virtually all of them opted to go to holy writ. As a result, the

:08:43. > :08:47.senior SNP politicians are there. In contrast, because the Labour

:08:47. > :08:51.Party already had so many MPs in 1999, so few of them decided to

:08:51. > :08:56.move across to Holyrood. Those who did sadly were not with us for very

:08:56. > :09:00.long. I think the Labour Party ended up with a deficit. Voters

:09:00. > :09:06.spotted this. It wasn't just that Iain Gray was felt to not be as

:09:06. > :09:09.good as Alex Salmond, there was a broader question of confidence. The

:09:09. > :09:13.question is, what can the Labour Party do to present to the Scottish

:09:13. > :09:17.public what they feel is more likely to be an effective

:09:17. > :09:21.government. The second thing they have to do, and this is where they

:09:21. > :09:27.have to avoid being distracted too much by the independence referendum,

:09:27. > :09:32.is to start to build a policy programme. Being great odyssey was

:09:32. > :09:37.creating a whole series of policy commissions at -- Iain Gray told us.

:09:37. > :09:40.But nothing happened. Indeed, the only major policy announcements

:09:40. > :09:44.close to the election were imitations of the existing SNP

:09:44. > :09:49.policies, such as the freeze on council tax. The Scottish Labour

:09:49. > :09:53.Party has to start to work up its own policy programme. On top of

:09:53. > :09:57.that, and this is what Johann Lamont's job is, it has got to give

:09:57. > :10:00.people in Scotland some indication of the sense of direction that

:10:00. > :10:03.Scotland would take under a late Scottish Labour devolved government.

:10:03. > :10:10.The truth is that all of those things are missing at the moment,

:10:10. > :10:15.they were not achieved under Iain Gray. That is a crucial task. In

:10:15. > :10:18.eight short weeks, the Labour Party faces a severe electoral test with

:10:18. > :10:21.these local elections, and it makes their job particularly difficult

:10:21. > :10:25.because she is almost going to start on the back foot, before she

:10:25. > :10:29.has had a chance to make much progress with any of these issues.

:10:29. > :10:37.Let's turn to the support for more powers for the Scottish Parliament.

:10:37. > :10:42.One parliamentarian said it is difficult to read in labour. What

:10:42. > :10:47.powers the think Johann Lamont supports? Honestly, we are not

:10:47. > :10:51.clear. We have one indication of one tax that Johann Lamont is

:10:51. > :10:58.reluctant to see devolve, one that Alex Salmond had in his sights,

:10:58. > :11:01.corporation tax. -- deceit devolved. If there were to be devolution of

:11:01. > :11:06.corporation tax, it was set up competition between England and

:11:06. > :11:10.competition. Not a competition as to who could have the higher tax,

:11:10. > :11:14.but the lower tax, with a view to trying to get more businesses to be

:11:14. > :11:18.relocated either side of the border. They are concerned there will be

:11:18. > :11:22.this tax competition and as a result, revenues for the London and

:11:22. > :11:26.Edinburgh government would be less as a result. One of the arguments

:11:26. > :11:30.is that they still want to have a society in which public expenditure

:11:30. > :11:33.is at least higher than some of the other parties would want. And they

:11:33. > :11:43.are concerned that the tax competition would cut across that.

:11:43. > :11:48.In other areas, we are not very clear at all. The mood of the

:11:48. > :11:58.Johann Lamont is that may be weak want to do something but you have

:11:58. > :12:02.

:12:02. > :12:08.to trust me -- maybe we want to do Although we are apparently going to

:12:08. > :12:13.get a Labour commission, in some senses parallel to the Liberal

:12:13. > :12:18.Democrat Commission, it would be starting with somewhat different

:12:18. > :12:23.senses of direction as far as the leaders are concerned.

:12:23. > :12:25.A man who has been a key figure in analysing what went wrong in the

:12:25. > :12:30.Holyrood elections is the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas

:12:30. > :12:34.Alexander. He used his speech to say that the task of renewal is

:12:34. > :12:38.under way, but he warned members would have to work hard to own

:12:38. > :12:42.future success. He also suggested Labour should be open minded to new

:12:42. > :12:45.tax powers in the Scottish Parliament. Stephen Duffy has been

:12:46. > :12:51.assessing how delegates feel the party has elected -- reacted to

:12:51. > :12:55.electoral defeat. In Dundee, change is all around.

:12:55. > :12:59.Work on the way to prepare the ground for the new V&A museum on

:12:59. > :13:04.the waterfront. The city centre, too, has changed beyond recognition.

:13:04. > :13:10.Dundee had to change. Many of its old industries, no longer wanted,

:13:10. > :13:15.were viable. Change is also needed in the Scottish Labour Party,

:13:15. > :13:18.according to one of its leading figures. One more heave would

:13:18. > :13:23.simply guarantee one more defeat, and then another, and then another.

:13:23. > :13:27.The threats to Scotland are too great, and the risks, too real, for

:13:27. > :13:32.Scottish Labour to settle for a quiet life of decline and defeat.

:13:32. > :13:36.We need to change, and changed radically, not to disavow our

:13:36. > :13:40.deepest beliefs, but to become a better expression of them. We need

:13:40. > :13:45.to change how we identify and select candidates, how we organise

:13:45. > :13:50.and fund campaigns, how we develop and communicate policies. We need

:13:50. > :13:54.to change, so that people across Scotland, who share our values, but

:13:54. > :13:59.would not now consider standing as a Labour candidate, will change

:13:59. > :14:06.their mind and say, that's where I want to be, and who I want to stand

:14:06. > :14:16.with. Douglas Alexander doesn't want to demolish the Scottish

:14:16. > :14:17.

:14:17. > :14:25.Labour Party to start again. He Have he says Scottish Labour should

:14:25. > :14:29.never abandon its belief and traditions. Dundee's added to a

:14:30. > :14:34.university, a centre of excellence for the UK gaming industry.

:14:34. > :14:44.Scottish Labour hopes it has picked a game changes in Johann Lamont as

:14:44. > :14:47.

:14:47. > :14:52.I think all political parties in the political cycle go through

:14:52. > :14:57.periods of being on the up and then won the down. Labour was on the

:14:57. > :15:01.down last year. One in eight people voted for us. Yes, it is a process

:15:01. > :15:05.of renewal, but that is the good thing about politics, the

:15:05. > :15:09.electorate are always looking to us for good ideas, ideas that will

:15:09. > :15:13.make their life better, ideas for the future. That is what we need to

:15:13. > :15:17.do, to come up with new ideas and talk about them, and then voters

:15:17. > :15:22.will win our trust. The pledge to stay true to the roots of Labour

:15:22. > :15:27.throughout any change, reassuring to many. I regard the Labour Party,

:15:27. > :15:31.ever since I joined, as the political end of the industrial

:15:31. > :15:36.movement, rather than the other way around. It is important to keep

:15:36. > :15:40.those links? Absolutely, crucially important. You don't think Douglas

:15:40. > :15:48.Alexander is moving away from the style of politicking? I don't think

:15:48. > :15:51.any Labour elected move a -- member would consider it moving away from

:15:51. > :15:58.the trade union movement and I don't think that is what Douglas is

:15:58. > :16:02.referring to. Douglas Alexander is one of many senior figures who

:16:02. > :16:06.represent a Scottish constituency at Westminster. Margaret Curran

:16:06. > :16:09.lost -- left Holyrood for Westminster Abbey last election.

:16:09. > :16:14.Can the renewal of Scottish Labour be completed with so many

:16:14. > :16:20.influential figures down south? Does it matter? I am from Scotland,

:16:20. > :16:24.I am in Scotland, I am fighting for Scotland, as are all UK MPs. One

:16:24. > :16:28.thing we learnt is that we are Scottish Labour. Our primary

:16:28. > :16:33.concern is Scotland and the people of Scotland, I don't think they are

:16:33. > :16:37.that interested in who sits on what institutions. Johann Lamont's plea

:16:37. > :16:40.for the party to stop apologising for past mistakes will lay the

:16:41. > :16:47.groundwork for the repairs to start, but like the transformation of

:16:47. > :16:52.Dundee, it may take some time. Professor John Curtis is still with

:16:52. > :16:56.me. It was interesting, hearing from Margaret Curran. She was one

:16:56. > :17:00.member who went down to Westminster in 2010. We have been speaking

:17:00. > :17:04.about how Labour should try to attract talent to Holyrood. But it

:17:04. > :17:08.is difficult, if even key figures like her are heading down south.

:17:08. > :17:15.Absolutely. The Labour Party had the misfortune to lose senior

:17:15. > :17:20.people from Westminster. But the truth is, there has even been,

:17:20. > :17:23.since then, traffic going from Holyrood through Westminster. Two

:17:23. > :17:28.former Scottish Government ministers, now sitting on the

:17:28. > :17:38.Labour benches at Westminster. I think the Labour Party is going to

:17:38. > :17:41.

:17:41. > :17:46.The Labour Party has ended up with a lot of new MSPs, and far more

:17:46. > :17:51.than you're MSPs than anticipated. Jenny Marra being one of them. We

:17:51. > :17:57.are looking to see whether or not, perhaps to some degree by accident,

:17:57. > :18:01.or perhaps by good fortune, whether some of these new MSPs do start to

:18:01. > :18:11.fill the big boots that need to be felled. Otherwise, the Labour Party

:18:11. > :18:19.

:18:19. > :18:23.will face this difficult task -- At the moment at least, there are

:18:23. > :18:27.Westminster Scottish Labour MPs saying, yes, I want to go north of

:18:27. > :18:32.the border. That is something the Labour Party will have to sort out.

:18:32. > :18:35.It will have to make sure it has got the kind of people that people

:18:35. > :18:41.would want to invest conference in, in terms of a government for

:18:41. > :18:46.Scotland. Electoral strategy is key. It was pretty disastrous at the OU

:18:46. > :18:51.at elections when big beasts like Andy Kerr did not appear on the

:18:51. > :18:55.list -- disastrous at the Holyrood elections. The Labour Party had

:18:55. > :18:59.something of eight innate reluctance to embrace the PR system.

:18:59. > :19:03.Bake -- of an innate reluctance. They but that if people were

:19:03. > :19:08.standing in the constituencies and also on the list -- they felt that.

:19:08. > :19:12.And therefore if people lost but still got elected, that this was

:19:12. > :19:16.losers still getting elected and they were reluctant to allow this.

:19:16. > :19:21.In Wales they legislated against it happening. The Labour Party got

:19:21. > :19:26.caught, as a result of this policy. It never expected that people like

:19:26. > :19:29.Andy Kerr would ever get defeated. They did, and as a result, there

:19:29. > :19:35.was no lifeboat for them on the list and they ended up with this

:19:35. > :19:38.much greater turnover of MSPs than they anticipated. I think we can

:19:38. > :19:42.anticipate that in future Scottish elections, that senior Scottish

:19:42. > :19:45.Labour people will not just be in constituencies, they will also be

:19:45. > :19:49.on the list, they will be at the top of the list and if they have

:19:49. > :19:53.any sense, Johann Lamont will be at the top of the Glasgow list,

:19:53. > :19:56.because the truth is, anybody will tell you that the way in which to

:19:56. > :20:01.play a party list system is to put popular people at the top of the

:20:01. > :20:09.list, because it helps to attract birds. One hopes the Labour Party -

:20:09. > :20:15.Stephen Gough picked up on the issue of Labour staying true to its

:20:15. > :20:18.roots and we had that from Ed Miliband -- Stephen Duff. Is that

:20:18. > :20:25.the way Labour think is the key way ahead, to get back into their

:20:25. > :20:28.heartlands? Behind the problems of the Scottish Labour Party, there is

:20:28. > :20:33.a bigger question. The Labour Party is trying to sort out what

:20:33. > :20:37.direction it is going to go in, after the collapse of New Labour.

:20:37. > :20:40.That disastrous experience of the last three years in office under

:20:40. > :20:45.Gordon Brown. The collapse of the New Labour deal, which was, we will

:20:45. > :20:49.be able to do more for people, by living off the revenues of the City

:20:49. > :20:53.of London. The financial crisis destroyed that model. In the wake

:20:53. > :20:58.of that, the fact that the Labour Party did not succeed in reducing

:20:58. > :21:01.levels of inequality, the Labour Party is having to think about what

:21:01. > :21:05.it is its strategic direction. Under Ed Miliband, there has been a

:21:05. > :21:10.sense that he has been wanting to say to his party, we do want to

:21:10. > :21:15.look at those who are well off -- look after those who are less well

:21:15. > :21:20.off. The squeezed middle is an important target, rather than those

:21:20. > :21:24.at the lower end of the ladder. They are selling to people, this

:21:24. > :21:28.has been part of Labour Party's traditional values in terms of

:21:28. > :21:34.wanting greater equality, greater fairness in society. Johann Lamont,

:21:35. > :21:40.you listen to her, somebody for whom a greater sense of justice and

:21:40. > :21:45.greater fairness matters. The Labour Party is going back to

:21:45. > :21:49.singing rather more familiar tunes. That is ironically a change. The

:21:49. > :21:54.question that remains is how the Labour Party thinks it can deliver

:21:54. > :21:57.greater fairness and equality in our society, and how it can convey

:21:57. > :22:01.that message in such a way that the public will be willing to vote for

:22:01. > :22:10.it, either north or south of the border. That is still the challenge

:22:10. > :22:17.We can see the delegates taking their seats to hear this speech

:22:17. > :22:19.from Johann Lamont. The stage lit in red lighting as opposed to the

:22:19. > :22:25.pink it was for Ed Miliband yesterday F you speak to people in

:22:25. > :22:29.the SNP they believe that the rot set in with Labour as early as 2003,

:22:29. > :22:32.you could maybe trace that back to the Iraq war and that's partly why

:22:32. > :22:37.Alex Salmond decided to stand again as leader in four because he

:22:37. > :22:40.thought he had a good shot of being First Minister in 2007. When do you

:22:40. > :22:46.think Scotland fell out of love with Labour? It's certainly true,

:22:46. > :22:49.on both sides of the border, the Iraq war was a seminal event.

:22:49. > :22:53.Although the Labour Party's popularity didn't decline that

:22:53. > :22:59.sharply immediately after, the subsequent discovery that there

:22:59. > :23:01.weren't the weapons of mass destruction upon which Tony Blair

:23:01. > :23:05.predicated his reasons for going to war meant as a result of that trust

:23:05. > :23:10.in Tony Blair in particular and the Labour Party in general was

:23:10. > :23:13.undermined. Now in the 2005 general election Labour was able to escape

:23:13. > :23:17.too much punishment from that because because the Conservatives

:23:17. > :23:20.south of the border had also backed the war. The Liberal Democrats had

:23:20. > :23:22.opposed it, they profited from that but they weren't able to do the

:23:22. > :23:28.kind of damage to the Labour Party that only the Conservatives could

:23:28. > :23:32.do under the UK electoral system. Iraq is important, but in truth one

:23:32. > :23:37.should also bear in mind here that actually the SNP only won the

:23:37. > :23:41.Scottish election probably in the four or five weeks immediately

:23:41. > :23:44.before the 2011 election. Yes, undoubtedly this background problem.

:23:44. > :23:48.There is no doubt the Labour Party in general there were doubts about

:23:48. > :23:53.its confidence but it was the failure of that campaign that Ian

:23:53. > :23:57.Grey himself led and of the lack of vision inside its manifesto and the

:23:57. > :24:00.idea defending Scotland against the Tories wasn't sufficient of a

:24:00. > :24:05.reason for people to vote for the Labour Party in Scotland, a failure

:24:05. > :24:09.of all those things meant there was frankly this decline of confidence,

:24:09. > :24:13.a rapid erosion of confidence in the Labour Party during the four or

:24:13. > :24:17.five weeks of the election campaign which was remarkable. In contrast,

:24:17. > :24:24.most people felt for all his faults Alex Salmond had done a fairly good

:24:24. > :24:32.job. He is a highly charismatic popular politician and against that

:24:32. > :24:36.Scottish Labour's challenge crumbled too easily. I think that's

:24:36. > :24:42.- we saw Iain Gray, former leader there. There is some of the MPs as

:24:42. > :24:49.well. Yes, there is Kathy Jaime is son. We are talking about Scotland

:24:49. > :24:53.falling out of love with Labour. Of course, there was a 2010 general

:24:53. > :24:58.election. Labour supporters would say there's a big caveat there. The

:24:58. > :25:02.party did remarkably well. But disastrous in 2011. In a sense it's

:25:02. > :25:07.a remarkable the degree to which we have forgotten the 2010 general

:25:07. > :25:11.election north of the border and Labour success. Labour was

:25:11. > :25:17.suffering hor end us defeat -- horrendous defeat. North of the

:25:17. > :25:20.bored ter managed to hold on to its vote and regain those seats in lost

:25:20. > :25:22.in general elections -- by- elections to the SNP. People in

:25:22. > :25:26.Scotland because they didn't want to see the Conservatives back,

:25:26. > :25:31.whatever their worries about the Labour Party Government, therefore,

:25:31. > :25:34.they held on to Labour. That almost in a sense however gave Labour a

:25:34. > :25:39.reassurance that proved so misleading, because from the

:25:39. > :25:43.message they took from that that was that indeed people in Scotland

:25:43. > :25:47.would be so concerned about seeing the Tories in power all be it in

:25:47. > :25:51.coalition with the Democrats they would once again turn to the Labour

:25:51. > :25:55.Party in 2011, in order the Labour Party could defend Scotland against

:25:55. > :25:59.this Conservative Government. The problem always was likely to be

:25:59. > :26:01.with that strategy indeed, yes, if you don't like the Labour and

:26:01. > :26:06.Liberal Democrats north of the border at least there are two

:26:06. > :26:10.choices you have got to express that point of view. One is to vote

:26:10. > :26:13.Labour, the other is vote for the SNP. Of course, beyond that one of

:26:13. > :26:16.their problems, if you say to people we are going to stand up for

:26:16. > :26:20.Scotland's interests, against the Conservative Government, you have

:26:20. > :26:25.got to persuade people that indeed you have got a strong personality

:26:25. > :26:29.to do that. If you look at the polling evidence, the attribute

:26:29. > :26:35.people most commonly associated with Iain Gray was weak. That's one

:26:36. > :26:41.of the reasons why that famous long repeated event when Iain Gray met a

:26:41. > :26:46.well known left-wing activist in Glasgow central station and he

:26:46. > :26:49.ended up scuttling into a sandwich shop, that in a sense became iconic

:26:49. > :26:52.of people's perception of Iain Gray that maybe for all the fact that

:26:52. > :26:55.his heart was in the right place they didn't feel indeed he was the

:26:55. > :26:59.person to stand up, whereas in contrast, of course, they had seen

:26:59. > :27:02.the SNP Government over the previous four years being willing

:27:02. > :27:05.on occasion to say where they disagreed with the Government,

:27:05. > :27:09.whether it was Labour or the coalition, and therefore if you

:27:09. > :27:13.were looking for somebody to stand up for Scotland's interests for

:27:13. > :27:16.many people the answer to that was the SNP. Even though many of those

:27:17. > :27:22.people in truth didn't necessarily want independence. I remember that

:27:22. > :27:28.scrum very well, that day at the Subway sandwich shop. Talking about

:27:28. > :27:32.the electoral strategy there and we had Labour having that rather

:27:32. > :27:35.disastrous U-turn, relaunch two weeks to go before polling day and

:27:35. > :27:39.yesterday Johann Lamont in a web chat with Brian Taylor was saying

:27:39. > :27:43.we had an electoral machine that wasn't telling us the things that

:27:43. > :27:46.were true. They were telling us things we wanted to hear. That's

:27:46. > :27:56.something that really has to be addressed in the Labour Party,

:27:56. > :27:58.

:27:58. > :28:01.doesn't it, when you compare it to the SNP's very well oiled machine?

:28:01. > :28:03.Yes, I think there was always a clue that the Labour Party was

:28:03. > :28:06.going to have a struggle with the Scottish election campaign F you

:28:06. > :28:08.remember back in his speech, I think in the autumn, or might have

:28:08. > :28:10.been the spring one, before the election, Iain Gray told us the

:28:11. > :28:13.Labour Party were going to fight a doorstep campaign and at that

:28:13. > :28:16.moment some of us said hang on, there must be a problem here. The

:28:16. > :28:18.Labour Party we know is rather short of money. People were no

:28:18. > :28:22.longer willing to give money to it following the defeat in 2010,

:28:22. > :28:26.indeed long before that. Therefore, perhaps what he is saying to us is

:28:26. > :28:30.unless my activists get out on the street we are not going to to be

:28:30. > :28:35.able to fight a effective campaign. In part that was true. Having said

:28:35. > :28:39.all of this, the truth is both sides were surprised in the end by

:28:39. > :28:43.the result. The SNP undoubtedly did begin to pick up towards the end of

:28:43. > :28:50.the campaign, the fact that they were doing relatively well and

:28:50. > :28:54.indeed my own constituency, Paul even Neil's constituency, all of a

:28:54. > :28:57.sudden in the last week or so the SNP began to mount a serious

:28:57. > :29:01.campaign. There are examples of other constituencies where clearly

:29:01. > :29:04.the SNP moved its campaign away from those seats it now decided it

:29:04. > :29:08.definitely was going to win, to seats perhaps it never thought it

:29:08. > :29:13.was going to win. Both sides were surprised. I think it's a mistake

:29:13. > :29:20.to suggest that relaunch ten days, a fortnight before the campaign was

:29:20. > :29:23.the cause of Labour's downfall N truth, that was the symptom of

:29:23. > :29:26.Labour's downfall, acknowledging during the previous weeks there had

:29:26. > :29:30.been that lack of confidence, this decline in Labour support. We

:29:30. > :29:32.shouldn't be surprised the Labour Party was rather reluctant to take

:29:32. > :29:39.on what was a rather sudden and unexpected movement of public

:29:39. > :29:43.opinion. Well, we are waiting to hear from Joe lan -- Johann Lamont

:29:43. > :29:48.at the conference. The delegates are filling the hall as we speak.

:29:48. > :29:52.We saw some shots of them earlier. There is the hall again, bathed in

:29:53. > :29:56.red light. The delegates waiting for Johann Lamont. There are some

:29:56. > :30:00.delays at the paoeplt. People are - - at the moment. People are taking

:30:00. > :30:04.their seats and getting ready to hear the speech. As she speaks to

:30:04. > :30:09.the delegates there, she's speaking to the converted I suppose, but

:30:09. > :30:15.there must be a lot of people there, a lot of Labour Party members who

:30:15. > :30:18.feel that Labour had lost the way? Indeed. One of the crucial

:30:18. > :30:23.questions to which they are hoping they're going to get the beginnings

:30:23. > :30:28.of an answer this afternoon is does she has the ability and the vision

:30:28. > :30:31.to show them the way forward towards success? Now one of the

:30:31. > :30:34.things to remember is that people like myself and yourself maybe

:30:34. > :30:39.spend a lot of time watching what she's been doing on First

:30:39. > :30:43.Minister's questions and say not been doing badly so far, relatively

:30:43. > :30:49.low expectations of her leadership have so far not not materialised,

:30:49. > :30:54.but the most important opinion poll fact we know about Johann Lamont so

:30:54. > :30:59.far is 40% of people do not know whether they are satisfied or

:30:59. > :31:03.dissatisfied with her leader, rather more people dissatisfied

:31:03. > :31:07.than satisfied. She as got to begin to impress herself on the wider

:31:07. > :31:12.Scottish public outside the hall in Dundee, that indeed she is somebody

:31:12. > :31:16.that they can begin to envisage as a potential First Minister. It's

:31:16. > :31:21.worth bearing in mind here that one of the problems that Ed Miliband is

:31:21. > :31:27.facing, truth is his current poll numbers are still seriously in the

:31:27. > :31:32.wrong end, is that many people are saying we don't envisage you as a

:31:32. > :31:37.possible First Minister. Now Johann Lamont quickly early on has to make

:31:37. > :31:40.people think actually maybe she is an alternative to Alex. I may not

:31:40. > :31:44.still think Alex is better, but at least think of her as being

:31:44. > :31:47.credible. Not many people will watch this speech, but the way this

:31:47. > :31:54.speech gets reported and the way to which people feel indeed does she

:31:54. > :31:58.fill this hall? Does she begin to exude her personality and convey it

:31:58. > :32:02.across, those things will matter in the public picking up the message

:32:02. > :32:05.as to whether or not she is or isn't looking like a possible First

:32:05. > :32:11.Minister. One of the things we used to say about Iain Gray, perhaps

:32:11. > :32:17.unfortunate, we used to say Grey by name and by Nature. He never really

:32:17. > :32:22.overcame that. The danger for Johann Lamont is she will begin to

:32:22. > :32:25.become known as lamentable Lamont. That's something she needs to avoid,

:32:25. > :32:28.the potential jibes are already out there and the truth is there are

:32:28. > :32:33.doubts there, particularly even within the party and certainly

:32:33. > :32:39.outside it as to whether again like Iain Gray, somebody undoubting with

:32:39. > :32:42.a strong concern for social justice, but whether she necessarily has the

:32:42. > :32:45.personality to convey her passion and to convey what she thinks

:32:45. > :32:49.should happen for her country to the wider public. In truth, unless

:32:49. > :32:53.you can do that, particularly against Alex Salmond, you are

:32:53. > :32:56.always going to be struggling. these conference speeches are key.

:32:56. > :33:01.It may be preaching to the converted a small audience and so

:33:01. > :33:05.on, but they're key because as you say they do have repercussions out

:33:05. > :33:07.there. We can think back and think of Iain Duncan Smith speaking to

:33:07. > :33:12.the Conservative Party conference where it was pretty disastrous

:33:12. > :33:15.because he didn't seem to be able to carry the hall, did he? That's

:33:15. > :33:19.exactly right. At the end of the day, these party conference

:33:19. > :33:24.speeches, although they're speeches to the converted, they're still the

:33:24. > :33:27.speeches that reach out to far more people than any other speech that a

:33:27. > :33:33.party leader will give at any other time of the year. This in truth is

:33:33. > :33:38.probably going to be the only occasion in the next 12 months that

:33:38. > :33:41.Johann Lamont will have a speech she makes covered live without any

:33:41. > :33:47.interruption to the wider public. Of course t will appear now on the

:33:47. > :33:51.web and be repeated etc. So to that extent at least it's an absolute

:33:51. > :33:56.golden opportunity and because also - another crucial thing in politics

:33:56. > :34:01.is that first impressions count. Because this is her first speech it

:34:01. > :34:04.does therefore need to be reported as being a good speech. If people

:34:04. > :34:09.begin to say well, you know what, actually it wasn't that good, you

:34:09. > :34:12.know, then the doubts will begin to creep in and once the impression is

:34:12. > :34:16.created that somebody isn't necessarily regarded as a good

:34:16. > :34:21.leader it's very, very difficult to reverse. Things about the

:34:21. > :34:26.leadership is it's very easy to lose popularity once you have got

:34:26. > :34:30.it, but unfortunately, it's even more difficult to gain it,

:34:30. > :34:34.particularly if you have never had it. Her leader south of the border,

:34:35. > :34:38.Ed Miliband, is struggling against the fact he's never really been

:34:38. > :34:41.popular. She's starting with somewhat negative poll readings.

:34:41. > :34:45.She badly needs to get to positive readings sooner rather than later,

:34:45. > :34:48.so that people begin to say well at least she's somebody who's

:34:48. > :34:52.reasonably popular north of the border. We are hoping to hear that

:34:52. > :34:57.speech fairly soon. There are some delays in Dundee still. We might

:34:57. > :35:02.pop back to the hall for a look there. Putting Scotland first is

:35:02. > :35:07.the logo up on the big television screen there. The hall is pretty

:35:07. > :35:14.full, I think. Everyone is waiting for Johann Lamont at the moment.

:35:14. > :35:17.People are sitting there waiting. Some still - still empty seats.

:35:17. > :35:21.Delegates chatting away, waiting to see what she has to say. If we turn

:35:21. > :35:25.to the more substancive elements of the speech, you were mentioning

:35:25. > :35:28.earlier about her proposing a commission to look at more powers

:35:28. > :35:32.for the parliament, but of course we are - the Scotland Bill is

:35:32. > :35:35.making its way through the Houses of parliament at the moment. It was

:35:35. > :35:42.in the committee stage of the House of Lords on Tuesday and of course

:35:42. > :35:45.course that was from the Carman Commission. She's going to propose

:35:45. > :35:51.another commission. One of the lessons of the last couple of

:35:51. > :35:54.months is perhaps the increasing realise realisation amongst

:35:54. > :35:59.unionist politicians, what was the reaction to Alex Salmond's first

:35:59. > :36:03.success, in 2007, which was indeed and here Wendy Alexander was

:36:04. > :36:09.instrumental, was the creation of the Commission that all three of

:36:09. > :36:12.the parties put their weight behind and in truth are potentially quite

:36:12. > :36:16.radical proposals for giving particularly greater financial

:36:16. > :36:21.power and responsibility to the Scottish parliament. Most

:36:21. > :36:25.immediately this Bill will mean that from about 2015-16 onwards

:36:25. > :36:28.much of the income tax raised in Scotland will go directly to the

:36:28. > :36:32.Scottish parliament t won't go via the Treasury. The Scottish

:36:32. > :36:36.parliament will be able to vary the basic rate of income tax, up or

:36:36. > :36:39.down in a much more effective way than the limited powers at the

:36:39. > :36:43.moment and to that extent we are moving a situation away from where

:36:43. > :36:46.for the most part effectively at the moment Holyrood is funded out

:36:46. > :36:51.of a block grant out of Westminster, to one where Holyrood has to begin

:36:51. > :36:54.to raise its own money. In the detail of this Bill in fact is also

:36:54. > :36:59.potentially making the pathway for extending this further. This is

:36:59. > :37:03.pretty radical because the truth is hitherto the UK Treasury, which

:37:03. > :37:08.carefully tries to say that we are the people who are responsible for

:37:08. > :37:12.taxation throughout the UK has been very reluctant to see any taxation

:37:12. > :37:17.reserved automatically to any particular Governmental department

:37:17. > :37:23.or organisation. That principle has been broken and the scan Bill will

:37:23. > :37:27.-- Scotland Bill will seen certain will go north of the border. This

:37:27. > :37:32.potentially radical step has never really been sold to the Scottish

:37:32. > :37:36.public. One of the things the aoupbists -- unionists might want

:37:36. > :37:41.to think about is that perhaps unless they are willing to get some

:37:41. > :37:44.kind of public endorsement for whatever in the end the devolution

:37:44. > :37:47.subject is meant to look like they're never really going to

:37:47. > :37:51.ensure that the Scottish public have bought into whatever

:37:51. > :37:55.constitutional settlement within the union that eventually they want

:37:55. > :37:58.people to buy into. If you don't want two questions on the paper, at

:37:58. > :38:02.some point when will the unionists put something to the Scottish

:38:02. > :38:06.electorate is a crucial question. Thank you. Brian Taylor is in

:38:06. > :38:10.Dundee at the moment. Brian, bring us news from the conference, a

:38:10. > :38:13.slight delay at the moment. Yes, a very substantial delay. I went into

:38:13. > :38:16.the hall to hear the speech but there was nothing happening, so I

:38:17. > :38:21.thought I would come back out here and join you. What they've been

:38:21. > :38:25.doing is shunting people into the middle of the hall, away from the

:38:25. > :38:29.sides to fill up the main benches as much as possible. They're now

:38:29. > :38:32.pretty full but not entirely full and that was what was going on. The

:38:32. > :38:39.stewards were shuffling people into the centre of the hall I suppose to

:38:39. > :38:46.give the impression of a packed audience and that sort of thing. I

:38:46. > :38:56.am sure they'll start soon, or at some point. They were meant to

:38:56. > :38:56.

:38:56. > :39:00.start 20 minutesing. -- minutes ago. We have been speaking about some of

:39:01. > :39:05.the more substancive points around the houses almost, and John was

:39:05. > :39:10.just saying about the offering of the unionist parties, when can they

:39:10. > :39:16.almost come together and put forward a coherent view of unionism

:39:16. > :39:21.to the people of Scotland? Well, they're tip-toeing towards it but

:39:21. > :39:25.there is a real problem. They don't agree, they took two years to agree

:39:25. > :39:29.on the relatively limited contents of the Scotland Bill that came out

:39:29. > :39:33.of the Calman commission and yet now perhaps they're under pressure

:39:33. > :39:37.to go more swiftly towards a common ground. Well, they don't agree on

:39:37. > :39:43.the common ground. The Liberal Democrats are pretty keen on

:39:43. > :39:46.transferring tax powers but they may not want the devo-plus, as set

:39:46. > :39:50.forward by the organisation Reform Scotland. Tories are sceptical

:39:50. > :39:53.about that. And Johann Lamont as we will hear if she ever makes her

:39:53. > :39:58.speech, she will be saying she is sceptical of it as well because

:39:58. > :40:02.she's concerned that if - she will say it's not a test to transfer tax

:40:02. > :40:06.powers, it can cause problems, if, for example t only benefits large

:40:06. > :40:10.companies and doesn't filter down to the ordinary working people

:40:10. > :40:16.she's trying to defend. I was speaking to someone in the SNP who

:40:16. > :40:19.was mentioning this to to John, it's difficult to read the rooms in

:40:19. > :40:26.the Labour Party when it comes to more powers. How do you separate

:40:26. > :40:29.them out. The ones who are pretty firmly against? The difficulty is

:40:29. > :40:33.the real fundamental difficulty is this is not a position of Labour's

:40:33. > :40:36.choosing. When a party is not in a position of its choosing then it

:40:36. > :40:39.becomes a particularly difficult dilemma for them. Labour would

:40:39. > :40:45.rather leave well alone. The Scotland Bill, in practice, would

:40:45. > :40:49.be where they are, there are some who are evangelical for tax

:40:49. > :40:52.devolution but the bulk of the party would rather leave it alone.

:40:52. > :40:56.They know they can't do that because of those results in May

:40:56. > :41:00.last year. They got beaten out of the park and therefore they have to

:41:00. > :41:03.offer something in response to that statement from the electorate. It

:41:03. > :41:07.was last May a vote for independence? It wasn't but it

:41:07. > :41:11.wasn't a vote against it and in the final two weeks of the campaign

:41:11. > :41:14.Labour majored every day on what they perceived as the threat from

:41:14. > :41:17.independence, the voters heard that every single day from the Labour

:41:17. > :41:20.Party and they paid not the slightest attention which indicates

:41:20. > :41:24.to me that the voters are maybe not in favour of independence, we have

:41:24. > :41:27.yet to judge that, but they're certainly not hostile to it or not

:41:27. > :41:31.scared of it, which was the situation previously when the

:41:31. > :41:33.unionist parties were able to make that pitch. So, the people in

:41:33. > :41:37.Scotland have said they're not scared of it, they want to hear

:41:37. > :41:41.some ideas. They're open to ideas. And it's now up to Labour to come

:41:41. > :41:44.forward. Tpwou be fair to Labour they cannot be expected to produce

:41:44. > :41:48.lake that an alternative to independence when the SNP have been

:41:48. > :41:53.advocating their case for many years and Labour still feel there

:41:53. > :41:58.is some uncertainty in that as well. I think you will hear from Joe lan

:41:58. > :42:01.-- Johann Lamont, she will announce they will look at further powers

:42:01. > :42:05.pwau sceptical look as well. Thank you very much. The conference video

:42:05. > :42:10.is now playing, so you will want to take your seat in the hall. We will

:42:10. > :42:14.be speaking to you later. John, interesting what Brian was saying

:42:14. > :42:18.there, that the Labour Party almost being forced into this position,

:42:18. > :42:21.and all three unionist parties are in this position. I suppose maybe

:42:21. > :42:24.it's almost the Liberal Democrats who feel more at home with this

:42:24. > :42:29.situation. There is no doubt the Liberal Democrats have long been in

:42:29. > :42:33.favour of a form of federalism, form of home rule. Devolution is

:42:33. > :42:37.something that they buy into automatically. The problem for the

:42:37. > :42:40.Labour Party is that because many people in the Labour Party think

:42:40. > :42:44.that social justice justice and greater equality is the most

:42:44. > :42:48.important thing that the party is about and that's what they want to

:42:48. > :42:52.achieve, they are then therefore worried that the more that the UK

:42:52. > :42:57.fragments, that therefore the degree to which one part of the UK

:42:57. > :43:03.is willing to help out another part is diminished and the resources to

:43:03. > :43:08.ensure those who are less well huff -- well-off, that those resources

:43:08. > :43:11.no longer necessarily be available. In a sense for them, one has often

:43:11. > :43:15.heard say Labour politicians say what matters to people at the end

:43:15. > :43:18.of the day is not constitutional tinkering, it's the issues of the

:43:19. > :43:22.day, whether or not they've got a job, whether they've enough money

:43:22. > :43:26.and that's always code for at the end of the day for most Labour

:43:26. > :43:30.politicians it is indeed the issues of social justice and equality that

:43:30. > :43:34.matters. It isn't necessarily constitutional tinkering and they

:43:34. > :43:38.feel that therefore the United Kingdom is for the most part the

:43:38. > :43:41.natural arena with which they want to operate. Of course, there is

:43:41. > :43:45.another long-standing Labour tradition. Keir Hardy was in favour

:43:45. > :43:48.of home rule and there's always been an element of the party that

:43:48. > :43:53.felt that indeed it should also run with something of a smaller

:43:53. > :43:56.nationalist dimension but it's attention inside the party and the

:43:56. > :44:00.predominant view in the party has always been much more concerned

:44:00. > :44:05.about social equality than about home rule. We are just about to go

:44:05. > :44:09.back into the hall. I think Johann Lamont will soon be there. Yes, I

:44:09. > :44:15.think we are just hearing the conference were playing a a video

:44:15. > :44:22.in the hall. They're now applauding, I think that's the end of the video.

:44:22. > :44:32.Now the delegates are waiting to hear from her. I ask you no to now

:44:32. > :45:07.

:45:07. > :45:10.welcome the leader of the Scottish I think my children might say that

:45:10. > :45:16.is taking attention-seeking behaviour just a bit too far, but

:45:16. > :45:20.thank you anyway. Conference, this is my first speech to you as leader

:45:20. > :45:23.of the Scottish Labour Party. I have had a look to see how leaders'

:45:23. > :45:29.speeches usually start. They begin usually with a tribute to the city

:45:29. > :45:32.hosting us, and yes, it is great to be in Dundee. Sometimes we pick out

:45:32. > :45:42.a few colleagues to praise and I will happily do that later in my

:45:42. > :45:46.

:45:46. > :45:56.speech. But conference, I need to -- time to start up Pollock -- tant

:45:56. > :46:02.

:46:02. > :46:06.to stop apologising for the We know what happened, we looked

:46:06. > :46:10.tired and complacent and we got the kind of beating we deserved. Now we

:46:10. > :46:15.need to start building the kind of Scottish Labour Party which

:46:15. > :46:20.Scotland deserves an which Scotland needs. We lost an election, we did

:46:20. > :46:24.not lose our sense of right and wrong. We did not lose our values

:46:25. > :46:29.and we will not lose the fight to make Scotland a fairer, more open,

:46:29. > :46:33.more just place to live in, because that is why we exist. I

:46:33. > :46:37.congratulate the SNP on their victory, but that victory did not

:46:37. > :46:42.remove the right for us to exist. It made it greater. A party, a

:46:42. > :46:49.movement, which speaks up for the voiceless, which fights for

:46:49. > :46:52.opportunity, where there is none. A party which believes, which demands,

:46:53. > :47:02.or which have the chance to fulfil potential Abbey the people they can

:47:03. > :47:06.

:47:06. > :47:12.One which promises every parent that their child will have a better

:47:12. > :47:16.chance than they had. I am a Scot and I love Scotland, but the love

:47:16. > :47:21.of my country demands -- drives me to demand that it is better

:47:21. > :47:27.tomorrow than it is today. My love of my country does not blind me to

:47:27. > :47:31.injustice, it inspires me to improve and repair it. I will wear

:47:31. > :47:35.these will tire of with pride but I would not bind it around my eyes so

:47:35. > :47:45.I cannot see the injustice in my country -- I will wear the Saltire

:47:45. > :47:50.

:47:50. > :47:54.I will not talk Scotland down, but I will not be silent while under

:47:54. > :47:59.Alex Salmond, children suffer in poverty and he does nothing about

:47:59. > :48:03.it. I would not be silent while he does Scotland down, while he uses

:48:03. > :48:07.the powers of devolution, not to protect Scotland from a Tory

:48:07. > :48:12.government, but to amplify every cut they make. Does anything feel

:48:12. > :48:16.familiar, conference? We have lost, and we have a government cutting

:48:16. > :48:22.services for the poor and the vulnerable. Blind to the needs of

:48:22. > :48:26.real people, wrapping themselves in the flag. And, oh, backed by Rupert

:48:26. > :48:32.Murdoch. We have been here before and we will do now, what we did

:48:32. > :48:36.then. We will rebuild our party, reconnect with our country, win and

:48:36. > :48:42.put social justice and fairness at the top of the agenda again. And

:48:42. > :48:48.this time, we will do it better than before. Not you, Labour, --

:48:48. > :48:52.not New Labour, not Old Labour, but real Labour. While Cameron and

:48:52. > :48:56.Salmond play bad cop rotten cop over the constitution, there is

:48:56. > :48:59.another reality. People the length and breadth of this country are

:48:59. > :49:03.fearful of their jobs, worrying about how they will make ends meet,

:49:03. > :49:08.whether their kids will get jobs. Watching as the public services

:49:08. > :49:13.they need will -- are cut back. At Westminster we have a Tory lead

:49:13. > :49:18.government which does not care. At Holyrood, we have a separatist

:49:18. > :49:24.government lively passing on cuts, failing to seize the opportunity to

:49:24. > :49:28.protect people. Instead, they see every cut not as a blow to Scottish

:49:29. > :49:32.families, but as an opportunity to boost their separatist agenda.

:49:32. > :49:36.Scotland needs a strong Labour Party, the one that will put

:49:36. > :49:42.Scotland first. One that will put Scott -- jobs and communities first.

:49:42. > :49:47.One born out of a desire to change a world bill divided. The SNP have

:49:47. > :49:52.been in power for five years now. Last May, Alex Salmond told us he

:49:52. > :49:57.would re- industrialise Scotland, and look what has happened.

:49:57. > :50:03.Unemployment up, nudging 250,000. Youth unemployment, out of control.

:50:04. > :50:12.400 women losing their jobs every day. Has Salmond tried to

:50:12. > :50:22.industrialise Scotland? He bought a bridge from Scott left -- he bought

:50:22. > :50:23.

:50:23. > :50:30.By bringing forward the Forth Road Bridge contract, he said it would

:50:30. > :50:34.stimulate the Scottish economy, yet how does that money, �790 million

:50:34. > :50:41.of Scotch taxpayers' cash stimulate the Scottish economy, when it goes

:50:41. > :50:45.to Thailand, -- China, Poland and Spain and only 20 million goes to

:50:45. > :50:49.Scottish companies. How is Salmond standing up for Scotland when

:50:49. > :50:53.industry is ignored? When he is so reckless that it gets to the point

:50:53. > :50:57.where Lanarkshire steel workers feel they have to write to a Tory

:50:57. > :51:02.Prime Minister, a Tory Prime Minister, to ask for protection

:51:02. > :51:07.from a Scottish first minister. When Alex Salmond says Scots don't

:51:07. > :51:11.mind Thatcher's economics, he does not understand Scotland at all. I

:51:11. > :51:15.can well imagine, the Tories would approve of the Forestry Commission

:51:15. > :51:19.renting out its land to foreign companies so that those companies

:51:19. > :51:23.can make hundreds of millions of pounds from Scotland's natural

:51:23. > :51:30.resources. But what Scotland does not approve of is what Alex Salmond

:51:30. > :51:32.is doing, exactly that. Allowing foreign companies to exploit

:51:32. > :51:37.Scotland's natural resources for a fraction of what this country could

:51:37. > :51:41.make if we did the work ourselves. Standing up for China, standing up

:51:41. > :51:46.for Poland, standing up for foreign energy companies. Alex Salmond can

:51:46. > :51:50.rightly claim to be doing all of that. But when it Scotland's second

:51:50. > :51:54.largest company, Scottish and Southern Energy, says that his plan

:51:54. > :51:59.for a referendum in 1,000 days are damaging their business, he can't

:51:59. > :52:03.say that he is standing up for Scotland. He can't say he is

:52:03. > :52:06.standing up for Scotland when one of our finest engineering companies

:52:06. > :52:10.say his plans are damaging their business. He can't say he is

:52:10. > :52:16.standing up for Scotland when Scottish engineering say his plans

:52:16. > :52:24.are damaging the Scottish economy. Let me tell Alex Salmond something.

:52:24. > :52:27.But things all tiers -- putting Saltires around his fireplace is no

:52:27. > :52:31.plan that he is putting Scotland's interest first and there is one

:52:31. > :52:41.think we are good at and this country, spotting a con man when we

:52:41. > :52:47.

:52:47. > :52:52.You see, putting Scotland first means more than holding press

:52:52. > :52:55.conferences in Edinburgh Castle. It means ensuring that Scottish

:52:55. > :52:58.investment benefits Scottish workers. This is what I want. I

:52:58. > :53:04.want the contract which the Scottish Government puts out to

:53:04. > :53:08.tender designed to benefit Scottish firms. I don't want them bundled up

:53:08. > :53:12.together to make deals too big for Scottish firms to bid for. I don't

:53:12. > :53:15.want our rant our Aslan put out for rent for foreign companies to

:53:15. > :53:25.exploit, when with greater imagination we could benefit more

:53:25. > :53:32.

:53:32. > :53:36.I don't want you to think I want this just because I am Scottish,

:53:36. > :53:39.waterproof how Scottish I am. I want these things because I believe

:53:40. > :53:46.they are fair and just, and I believe if Scotland stands for

:53:46. > :53:50.anything, it is fairness and social justice. But let me try to push the

:53:50. > :53:53.phrase of social justice out of the pool of political cliches and telly

:53:54. > :53:58.what I mean by that. I mean that when a mother gives birth to a

:53:58. > :54:02.child, they hope they can feel their own ambitions as a real

:54:02. > :54:08.possibility and not a pipe dream, snuffed out by the time they are

:54:08. > :54:12.three. The hope and ambition of a child, suffocated by poverty. Poor

:54:12. > :54:18.housing and a lack of opportunity. I mean a world where what you can

:54:18. > :54:23.be is more important than what you -- way you come from. And I mean a

:54:23. > :54:26.world where a politician's Budget matches the claim to care. I mean a

:54:26. > :54:32.world where claiming for your loved ones is regarded as a common good

:54:32. > :54:37.to be supported, not a welfare benefit to be cut. A world where

:54:37. > :54:40.enemy is fear, and not our neighbours. Conference, our friends

:54:40. > :54:44.and neighbours in England are currently being subjected to the

:54:44. > :54:50.Alex Salmond road show, going around the lecture halls and TV

:54:50. > :54:54.studios, dusting off old favourites that we know. A oil fund, a

:54:54. > :55:00.currency union, a mobile Defence Brigade, it is like a greatest hits

:55:00. > :55:03.set. Many of us have long been tired of Alex Salmond's fantasy

:55:04. > :55:11.assertions and deluded deflections. It has provided a novelty for his

:55:11. > :55:17.Ink his audience. -- English audience. He is an about and a file,

:55:18. > :55:27.he wants the Bank of England to set interest rates in his beloved

:55:28. > :55:28.

:55:28. > :55:32.My favourite line from his tour is that Scotland, as an independent

:55:32. > :55:37.country under his leadership, will be a beacon for progressives.

:55:37. > :55:43.Progressive is one of those words politicians use. I prefer playing,

:55:43. > :55:48.simple fare. Is it fair that an elderly person has his care visits,

:55:48. > :55:53.possibly his only contact with the outside world squeezed into 15 many

:55:53. > :56:00.windows, because of their care worker is overstretched? Is it fair

:56:00. > :56:05.that the teacher has to delve into there and wages to provide pencils

:56:05. > :56:10.for their class? Is it fair that a vulnerable child in a chaotic home

:56:10. > :56:14.is left at risk, and at the mercy of unfit parents, because

:56:14. > :56:19.overworked social workers don't have time to carry out the proper

:56:19. > :56:25.checks? In Alex Salmond's progressive Scotland, he took a 2%

:56:25. > :56:28.cut from the Tories, double it and handed it to Scotland's councils.

:56:28. > :56:34.We are seeing the consequences of these decisions in our communities

:56:34. > :56:36.every day. Is it right that a young adult, who was not able to take

:56:36. > :56:40.from school the qualifications he would have liked, is being denied a

:56:40. > :56:44.second chance at learning, because colleges cannot guarantee him a

:56:44. > :56:49.decent level of support? Is it right that a worker made redundant

:56:49. > :56:53.misses out on the opportunity to retrain for a tough Labour market,

:56:53. > :57:03.because his local college has to cut the number of courses it

:57:03. > :57:09.provides? Is it right that in Fife, where 25% of school leavers go to

:57:09. > :57:17.Adam Smith and Carnegie colleges, and 2.5% go to St Andrews, it is

:57:17. > :57:23.college funding that is attacked. Colleges in Scotland are being

:57:23. > :57:28.filleted with 20% cuts. Meanwhile, youth unemployment spirals out of

:57:28. > :57:31.control. Is it acceptable that families are trapped in sub-

:57:31. > :57:35.standard or inappropriate homes, because we cannot meet the

:57:35. > :57:39.shortfall in housing demand? Is it acceptable that first-time buyers

:57:39. > :57:44.are shut out of the property market, because of a lack of investment in

:57:44. > :57:48.affordable housing? Is it acceptable that 30,000 construction

:57:48. > :57:53.workers lost their jobs last year, because we are not providing work

:57:53. > :57:57.for them? In Alex Salmond's progressive Scotland, the housing

:57:57. > :58:01.budget was cut by nearly a third, while the waiting lists and the

:58:01. > :58:07.dole queues get longer. They say that imitation is the sincerest

:58:07. > :58:11.form of flattery. Well, conference, I can take no satisfaction from

:58:11. > :58:15.seeing the SNP's pathetic attempts to place themselves as the party of

:58:15. > :58:18.progressives. It was Labour at Westminster who introduced the

:58:18. > :58:24.minimum wage, working family tax credits and the Winter Fuel

:58:24. > :58:28.Payments. It was Labour at Holyrood who introduced concessionary travel

:58:28. > :58:33.and transformed land ownership across Scotland. It was Labour who

:58:33. > :58:39.delivered new schools, hospitals and housing. We are the

:58:39. > :58:43.progressives. Labour understands fairness. Last May, in a rare

:58:43. > :58:53.moment of self-awareness, Alex Salmond told Scotland, he doesn't

:58:53. > :58:53.

:58:53. > :59:03.have a monopoly on wisdom. I couldn't agree more.

:59:03. > :59:06.

:59:06. > :59:10.To get the progressive government which embodies its values, the any

:59:10. > :59:14.party that can deliver that is the Scottish Labour Party. If we are to

:59:14. > :59:19.get there, we must change. If we are to get the opportunity to serve

:59:19. > :59:24.the people of Scotland again, we must renew ourselves. And we have

:59:25. > :59:29.started at work. I am the first leader of the Scottish Labour Party,

:59:29. > :59:36.so let me tell you the kind of Labour Party I am going to lead. We

:59:36. > :59:42.have talent in this party, but my current structures, I believe, at

:59:42. > :59:46.Stowe for much of that talent. They make it difficult for people to

:59:46. > :59:51.Sturridge -- stifle much of that talent and make it difficult for

:59:51. > :59:54.people to flourish. I am going to work with the party to find out how

:59:54. > :59:58.we best change those structures, so the best talent the party has to

:59:58. > :00:02.offer is made available to local parties with a real chance of being

:00:02. > :00:06.selected. I don't just want to reach within the party. I want to

:00:06. > :00:10.reach out to wider Scotland, to find the new talent which will

:00:10. > :00:17.rejuvenate our party. Making us truly representative of all parts

:00:17. > :00:24.of Scotland. And so it I have asked Anas Sarwar to work with Margaret

:00:24. > :00:28.Curran and MSPs, to build Tasks for six to identify and bring in new

:00:28. > :00:32.talent, so that we better represent those communities. We need to be

:00:32. > :00:41.open to new members, and we need to be more open to our existing

:00:41. > :00:45.members and supporters. And I know that many left us last May because

:00:46. > :00:49.they felt we had let them down. So I will work with my trade union

:00:49. > :00:53.colleagues, to re-engage with trade union members and demonstrate that

:00:53. > :00:57.our cause is a common cause. We will listen to and learn from

:00:57. > :01:02.communities the length and breadth of the country. My shadow cabinet

:01:03. > :01:07.will, over the next 12 months, travel to every part of Scotland,

:01:07. > :01:11.to talk to anyone interested in social justice and economy --

:01:11. > :01:14.equality, and we will report back up to next year's conference on

:01:15. > :01:19.people's priorities. The next 12 months will be a period of renewal

:01:19. > :01:23.for our party in terms of structures, organisation and policy,

:01:23. > :01:28.as we become a party fit to serve the people of Scotland once again.

:01:29. > :01:33.And I want to use all the talents of this party. It is the people we

:01:33. > :01:37.serve that matters, and the principles we hold, not the

:01:37. > :01:43.institution in which we serve. If we believe in partnership, and we

:01:43. > :01:50.do, then I want members at Holyrood and Westminster to work more

:01:50. > :02:00.closely than we have ever before, to rebuild this party. Some say the

:02:00. > :02:03.

:02:03. > :02:07.big beasts, or men as I call them... Only go to Westminster. But I know

:02:08. > :02:13.that we have talent in both our parliaments and far beyond. And I

:02:13. > :02:18.will build a team across the party which serves Scotland world. It is

:02:18. > :02:21.asserted that no one -- Scotland well. It is asserted that none is

:02:21. > :02:26.put in for the positive case for Scotland remaining in the United

:02:26. > :02:31.Kingdom. -- that no one is putting forward. That is not true, we do.

:02:31. > :02:35.But the SNP did almost every day. They did when they say that

:02:35. > :02:39.Scotland is to keep Stirling. -- they do it when. They do it when

:02:39. > :02:43.they say that our crucial energy sector needs the support of UK

:02:43. > :02:49.consumers' investment to grow. They do it when they say our shipyards

:02:49. > :02:56.would need a Royal Navy contracts to stay open. And my question is

:02:56. > :03:00.this. If even the SNP acknowledge that Scotland needs the UK for a

:03:00. > :03:10.stable currency, a growing energy market, and to keep our defence

:03:10. > :03:17.

:03:17. > :03:21.industries, why would we The Scottish Labour Party is the

:03:21. > :03:27.party which is radical on the constitution. The party which

:03:27. > :03:32.delivered devolution. Remember, a referendum within four months of

:03:32. > :03:37.being elected in 1997, and a Scottish Parliament open for

:03:37. > :03:41.business two years later. And we have to wait a further 1,000 days.

:03:41. > :03:47.We were the ones who fought for the greater powers we see now in the

:03:47. > :03:51.Scotland Bill. Back -- but our test is different to the nationalists.

:03:51. > :03:55.Our test is what is in the best interests of the people of Scotland.

:03:55. > :04:01.They have no test. They just think, more powers for Alex is by

:04:01. > :04:08.definition, a good thing. Our test is a lot more rigorous than that.

:04:08. > :04:15.We cannot allow ourselves to be boxed into an Orwellian debate,

:04:15. > :04:20.more powers good, anything else bad. We need to examine whether tax

:04:20. > :04:24.competition is an interest for the people of Scotland. If it is

:04:24. > :04:29.wasteful, if it leads to a race to the bottom, if it leads to less

:04:29. > :04:32.money for public services, is that in more interest for the people of

:04:32. > :04:37.Scotland? I will not be seduced into the place where which powers

:04:38. > :04:41.to demand is a test of political virility. We are calling for

:04:41. > :04:45.corporation tax -- where calling for corporation tax to be devolved

:04:45. > :04:48.somehow made Shahada, or more Scottish, or even more progressive.

:04:48. > :04:51.-- somehow makes you harder. It won't be in the interest of

:04:51. > :04:54.Scotland if the many people the benefit are big business and it

:04:55. > :04:58.would be more progressive if it means we spend less on public

:04:58. > :05:08.services, caring for the vulnerable and giving opportunity to the

:05:08. > :05:18.

:05:18. > :05:23.The debate on tax powers has to go beyond the cartoon politics of Alex

:05:23. > :05:28.Salmond. And at heart, the SNP want to sell a skewed vision of where

:05:28. > :05:34.Scotland is at. They want you to believe that Scotland is somehow a

:05:34. > :05:38.pressed. That somewhere deep in the bowels of white wall is a little

:05:38. > :05:42.box marked Scottish rights, and that somehow, only if we make

:05:42. > :05:47.enough of a bus, will the box be opened and a few new powers

:05:47. > :05:49.grudgingly tossed over the border. My view of Scotland and the

:05:50. > :05:54.Scottish people is profoundly different. I believe that power

:05:54. > :05:57.lies with the Scottish people, and it is for the people of Scotland to

:05:57. > :06:02.decide how that power should be used in the interest of the

:06:02. > :06:08.Scottish people. The question is not what powers Scotland should

:06:08. > :06:13.claw back, but which powers should we share? How do we share power in

:06:13. > :06:16.a way that best benefits Scotland. What do we share with our

:06:16. > :06:20.neighbours to our mutual benefit. I question for example, whether we

:06:20. > :06:23.should devolve power corporation tax, not because I don't think we

:06:24. > :06:28.are capable of using it, because I want to see the detailed evidence

:06:28. > :06:33.that will tell us whether it will be in our interest or not. Whether

:06:33. > :06:36.pulling tax-raising powers is in our interest. We have as part of

:06:36. > :06:42.our union, one of the richest international hubs in the world,

:06:42. > :06:46.London. My question is this. Is it in the interest of Scotland to

:06:46. > :06:50.enter into tax competition with London, or as someone who is a

:06:50. > :06:53.progressive vision for Scotland, is it better to have a unified tax

:06:53. > :07:03.policy which would distribute wealth to where it is needed most?

:07:03. > :07:07.

:07:07. > :07:11.Will they be good for businesses we rely on to create jobs families

:07:11. > :07:15.need? Will they help create wealth we need for public services we want

:07:15. > :07:20.to build? Will they increase or decrease the stability we need in

:07:20. > :07:25.our economy? I believe that one thing which should inform our

:07:25. > :07:31.debate is the debate in Europe, the experience of the euro. I think the

:07:31. > :07:36.euro teaches us two things. Firstly, taking deeply technical economic

:07:37. > :07:40.decisions for purely political reasons leads to disaster. It was a

:07:40. > :07:45.political ideal of a single currency which has led to the

:07:45. > :07:50.economic disaster felt by all too many families in Greece, Ireland,

:07:50. > :07:56.and Portugal right now. The second lesson is this: If you want

:07:56. > :08:00.monetary union, you need fiscal union and a degree of political

:08:00. > :08:03.union. The SNP acknowledge that a separate Scotland would need to

:08:03. > :08:08.stay in monetary union but they want to break up the fiscal union

:08:08. > :08:12.and political union which we currently have. So, while the rest

:08:12. > :08:16.of Europe moves in one direction to avoid economic disaster, Alex

:08:16. > :08:26.Salmond wants to move in the opposite direction and head

:08:26. > :08:35.

:08:35. > :08:39.straight for it. It makes no sense. And we won't allow the SNP to

:08:39. > :08:44.define our position and our aspirations constitutionally. For

:08:44. > :08:48.it is not to say that the United Kingdom is perfect, that it should

:08:48. > :08:54.not change. But once again I believe that we need to get what

:08:54. > :08:58.the UK means and what Scotland's place is within it in proper

:08:58. > :09:03.perspective. What would the UK be without Scotland? A country we

:09:03. > :09:07.built with our neighbours over the last 300 years. Scotland was never

:09:07. > :09:13.conquered or annexed by the United Kingdom. Since we have had proper

:09:13. > :09:17.democracy in this country Scots have always chosen to live in it.

:09:17. > :09:21.Our values have influenced the modern UK. Scottish values of

:09:21. > :09:26.community where we believe that it is one part of the community is in

:09:26. > :09:30.need, others should come to their aid. That is the essence of how the

:09:30. > :09:34.UK operates. Scotland gets more of the UK resources, not out of

:09:34. > :09:39.charity, or because of weakness, but because with less than a 10th

:09:39. > :09:42.of the population, but a third of the land mass, we need more. So

:09:42. > :09:46.when the Royal Bank of Scotland goes down, Scotland didn't have to

:09:46. > :09:52.negotiate with foreign governments, we didn't need to have to endure

:09:52. > :09:56.years of negotiations as the Greeks are now going through. The help was

:09:56. > :09:59.automatic. Given within ours. We didn't have the indignity which

:09:59. > :10:04.some of our neighbours had of seeking bail-outs from foreign

:10:04. > :10:14.governments. What happened with the RBS bail-out wasn't about

:10:14. > :10:22.

:10:23. > :10:27.Scotland's weakness. It was about And in a world of enormous economic

:10:27. > :10:31.uncertainty, one where we see power moving from west to east, I believe

:10:31. > :10:36.that if Scotland were independent today, a Scottish Prime Minister

:10:36. > :10:42.would be looking to negotiate with our neighbours a union which shared

:10:42. > :10:51.risks and rewards as a UK does. This debate, of course, will be

:10:51. > :10:54.filled with meaningless soundbites, phrases without concepts, devo-max,

:10:54. > :10:57.but the English language has many phrases which many nothing in

:10:57. > :11:07.reality, you know the kind of thing, the cheque is in the post, I will

:11:07. > :11:14.

:11:14. > :11:24.be straight home. LAUGHTER. Archie. Or, I was always backing you for

:11:24. > :11:27.

:11:27. > :11:32.the leadership. APPLAUSE. Even, later on, loved your speech.

:11:32. > :11:37.But let me tell you one phrase which really is meaningless, north

:11:37. > :11:44.of the border. And here is another one, south of the border. Because

:11:44. > :11:48.we have no border. We haven't had one for 300 years. Without a border

:11:48. > :11:53.has Scottish identity flourished or diminished? We don't need a border

:11:53. > :11:58.to be Scottish. We don't need a border to flourish. What we need is

:11:58. > :12:02.a commitment to Scottish values, a commitment to our communities, to

:12:02. > :12:08.equality, and to solidarity. I am afraid, Mr Salmond, that doesn't

:12:08. > :12:18.mean a commitment to the low tax, low public spending ideaology which

:12:18. > :12:20.

:12:20. > :12:24.at the heart of your politics. APPLAUSE.

:12:24. > :12:29.I believe that being in a United Kingdom is good for Scotland, but

:12:29. > :12:33.that does not mean it cannot change. We will look at ways devolution can

:12:33. > :12:37.change, what powers are needed, what more powers are needed and I

:12:37. > :12:41.will lead Labour's Commission on devolution. On that Commission I

:12:41. > :12:46.want, not just Holyrood and Westminster colleagues, but trade

:12:46. > :12:50.union colleagues and colleagues from local Government, too. Because

:12:50. > :12:54.devolution can't just mean powers going from London to Edinburgh. If

:12:54. > :12:58.we believe in devolution we must be more radical than that and ask at

:12:58. > :13:01.which level should power lie if we are to serve the people best? That

:13:01. > :13:05.means a radical look and not just what powers should the Scottish

:13:05. > :13:09.Government have, but what powers does local Government need and

:13:09. > :13:15.which should be devolved further to local communities to allow them to

:13:15. > :13:19.shape their lives? Our values endure, but the way we express them

:13:19. > :13:23.can never be static. We will come up with proposals which strengthen

:13:23. > :13:28.definite definite -- devolution and by that strengthen the United

:13:28. > :13:31.Kingdom and Scotland's place in it. But before we do that, we must take

:13:31. > :13:35.to the country the case for Scotland remaining with the United

:13:35. > :13:40.Kingdom. It must start with Labour's case for the United

:13:40. > :13:45.Kingdom and Labour's campaign. I will lead that campaign, but I want

:13:45. > :13:50.it to be a collective leadership with all of us working together. I

:13:50. > :13:56.will draw on talents of all across our institutions, no matter where

:13:56. > :14:00.people serve. But may I say I am delighted that Alistair Darling has

:14:00. > :14:10.agreed to play a leading role and equally delighted our own Gordon

:14:10. > :14:17.

:14:17. > :14:22.Brown will play his part, too. And we will also work with others

:14:22. > :14:27.who want to keep Scotland in the United Kingdom, people from all

:14:27. > :14:30.parties and none, the skills of the Labour campaign will be lent to an

:14:30. > :14:35.all-party campaign when they're needed. But what we first have to

:14:35. > :14:38.set out is what we want Scotland to be. Our greatest asset is our

:14:38. > :14:42.people. But we still live in a country where our people cannot

:14:42. > :14:46.make the best of themselves, we have parts of our country where

:14:46. > :14:52.families haven't worked for generations, as much by their own

:14:52. > :14:56.culture, as lack of opportunity. That has to change. I want a

:14:56. > :15:01.society where there are genuine opportunities for all, an education

:15:01. > :15:05.system that is a gateway to a better life for all. I want this

:15:06. > :15:15.party to talk of the dignity of Labour again, the right to work

:15:16. > :15:24.

:15:24. > :15:28.I want to create the kind of genuine enterprise culture in this

:15:28. > :15:33.country which ensures our greatest export stops being our people,

:15:33. > :15:36.because Scotland is a place they know longer have to leave to find

:15:36. > :15:41.opportunity. A Scotland where we create the wealth to have the

:15:41. > :15:46.public services we aspire to. A Scotland which leads the world in

:15:46. > :15:51.education again, and where education really is open to all.

:15:51. > :15:55.That is how I express my patriotism, not a separate Scotland, but a

:15:55. > :16:00.better Scotland. But if you express your patriotism by finding

:16:00. > :16:06.difference with others, rather than unity of purpose, go with the other

:16:06. > :16:10.guy. Not with me. If you measure your love of your country in yards

:16:10. > :16:15.of tartan, go with the other guy, not me. If celebrating your culture

:16:15. > :16:20.and tradition has at its heart a desire to divide, not appreciate

:16:20. > :16:26.diversity, go with the other guy, not with me. I ask everyone in this

:16:26. > :16:30.party, everyone in our land to come with me, to celebrate Scottish

:16:30. > :16:35.values and make them real, in a Scotland which is a land of

:16:35. > :16:38.fairness, of equality, of solidarity, a Scotland of

:16:38. > :16:44.innovation, invention and opportunity. We will renew our

:16:44. > :16:54.party to rebuild our land and we will do it by being a better Labour,

:16:54. > :17:06.

:17:06. > :17:10.a real Labour, Scottish Labour. Johann Lamont, the Scottish Labour

:17:10. > :17:15.leader there, being hugged by her deputy, and standing ovation from

:17:15. > :17:19.the crowd as our tpeurbs -- as her first speech as leader. She said it

:17:19. > :17:23.was time for the party to stop apologising for the mistakes of the

:17:23. > :17:27.past and start fighting again for Scotland. She set out the details

:17:27. > :17:31.of that Commission to look at new powers for Scotland, and pointed

:17:31. > :17:36.out that Alistair Darling would take a leading role in that and she

:17:36. > :17:40.had a strong emphasis on social justice, as well. Attacking Alex

:17:40. > :17:44.Salmond saying you can spot a conman when you can see one. We are

:17:44. > :17:49.seeing those pictures live from Dundee there, with me in the studio

:17:49. > :17:52.is Professor John Curtis from Strathclyde University. A lot of

:17:52. > :17:55.substancetive points in that speech. The Commission and Alistair Darling

:17:55. > :17:59.being two of the most interesting. Certainly in terms of the detail of

:17:59. > :18:02.the speech, probably two things. First indeed is the Commission on

:18:02. > :18:06.devolution that was linked to the press -- leaked to the press this

:18:06. > :18:11.morning, indicating she was going to lead it. Perhaps the thing we

:18:11. > :18:14.haven't been told this morning was interesting, the confirmation, long

:18:14. > :18:18.been suspected, Alistair Darling is going to play a key role in

:18:18. > :18:21.Labour's campaign in defence of the union, and indeed also the mention

:18:21. > :18:25.that Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, is also going to play a

:18:25. > :18:29.role. In truth, the other thing she said which was important, though it

:18:29. > :18:31.lacked detail, although there's this Labour campaign for the union,

:18:31. > :18:34.she's acknowledging it's going to have to work with other parties,

:18:34. > :18:38.though she wasn't going to tell her colleagues too much about the

:18:38. > :18:42.detail of that. Perhaps she is paving the way we might for example,

:18:42. > :18:45.see Gordon Brown and David Cameron on the same platform in defence of

:18:45. > :18:49.the union. The other thing she was able to announce as an opposition

:18:49. > :18:55.leader was how she was going to begin to change her party. Now, two

:18:55. > :18:58.things there, the first was that indeed she was going to set up

:18:58. > :19:01.taskforces to open up the party, to try and bring in new talent and

:19:01. > :19:05.here was an acknowledgement, although she was defending her

:19:05. > :19:10.party, that the party does indeed need to see if it can get people

:19:10. > :19:13.who can acquire the confidence of the Scottish people those into

:19:13. > :19:17.Holyrood. The other thing she said, she acknowledged the party needed

:19:17. > :19:23.to develop in terms of policy, though how she was going to do it

:19:23. > :19:26.we still remain to see. Essentially what she was saying is the - trying

:19:26. > :19:31.to find out people's priorities. We have to wait and see in 12 months

:19:31. > :19:36.what mansion to come out of that. Beyond that, however, I think the

:19:36. > :19:39.perhaps interesting thing about this speech was that at the centre

:19:39. > :19:44.of this was indeed social justice, equality, as we have been saying

:19:44. > :19:47.before the speech. Anybody who was any doubt that that's what she

:19:47. > :19:52.believes in could not now be in any doubt. I think the interesting

:19:52. > :19:56.thing about it was the way that she was then trying to argue that those

:19:56. > :20:00.values are not only important values, but that they are Scottish

:20:00. > :20:03.values and that therefore that because the best way of promoting

:20:03. > :20:07.those values is as part of the United Kingdom, she was beginning

:20:08. > :20:12.to come up with an argument as to how somebody who might believe in

:20:12. > :20:16.something that's better for Scotland, and in pride in Scotland,

:20:16. > :20:19.how somebody with that disposition might still want to believe in the

:20:19. > :20:23.union. I think one of the things that some of us have been arguing,

:20:23. > :20:27.one of the things mising from the unionist campaign so far, has been

:20:27. > :20:31.an ability to link of sense of Scottish paoeut -- identity to an

:20:31. > :20:35.argument for the union. Now, I could criticise certain aspects of

:20:35. > :20:38.the argument but undoubtedly as to here is an attempt to try to link

:20:38. > :20:43.the Scottish identity to the union, in that sense her speech moved the

:20:43. > :20:47.debate on from the kind of speech that David Cameron made, passionate

:20:47. > :20:50.though it was,s with waupb that links -- one that links of

:20:50. > :20:54.Britishness to the union rather than than ideas of Scottishness.

:20:54. > :20:58.can go to Dundee now, where our political editor Brian Taylor is

:20:58. > :21:01.standing by with sell gates who have rushed from the -- delegates

:21:01. > :21:06.who have rushed from the hall to give reaction.

:21:06. > :21:10.Strolled gently, rather than rushed! I have been joined

:21:10. > :21:14.immediately by Ken McIntosh, the finance spokesman for the party. We

:21:14. > :21:19.will be joined by others in a couple of seconds. Thank you very

:21:19. > :21:22.much for joining us. Be careful of this, because Johann Lamont says a

:21:22. > :21:28.phrase that doesn't matter is love the speech, none of you are allowed

:21:28. > :21:30.to say love the speech by the way, you have to say it was awful over

:21:30. > :21:33.something like that! She's attacking Alex Salmond for

:21:33. > :21:37.withdrawing funds from public spending but surely he has no

:21:37. > :21:41.option. He's working within cuts laid down by the United Kingdom

:21:41. > :21:45.Government, he has no choice? contrast Johann was making was

:21:45. > :21:48.between what Alex Salmond says and does. Because, he talks a good game.

:21:48. > :21:51.He is always talking about defending Scotland. He talks about

:21:51. > :21:56.bringing forward capital investment, talks about the difference the SNP

:21:56. > :22:00.are making but actually what he is actually doing is passing on,

:22:00. > :22:04.simply passing on the Tory cuts. What else can he do, he is working

:22:04. > :22:08.within a fixed budget, he can't disinvent them, he can't make money,

:22:08. > :22:12.print money. You can take a different approach F you take the

:22:12. > :22:17.economy, one measure in particular unemployment, we should be doing

:22:17. > :22:21.things like following wage subsidies. Labour's Scottish

:22:21. > :22:24.futures programme. These are things Government has power and ability to

:22:24. > :22:32.do now. These are choices they make. The SNP are in charge of a vast

:22:32. > :22:35.budget here in Scotland. Choices... You talk about a jobs fund. The

:22:35. > :22:39.speech criticises him for cutting spebing on the health service and

:22:39. > :22:42.Government, has no option. He has to make these cuts. What you are

:22:42. > :22:50.suggesting there is that he has no choice and therefore there's no

:22:50. > :22:57.point having a Scottish parliament. We are joined by Margaret and Anas.

:22:57. > :23:07.It was a great speech! On that point, he does have choices. The

:23:07. > :23:09.

:23:09. > :23:15.grant cut by 2.2%. The Government has chosen to pass on a cut to 5.5%.

:23:15. > :23:18.It's an SNP choice to double the cut for local Government. It's a

:23:18. > :23:22.multiplied effect of spending. For example, if you invest in housing,

:23:22. > :23:26.you then get construction jobs. People are spending and you get

:23:26. > :23:32.people paying rents which is much better and keeps the economy

:23:32. > :23:37.thriving. It's the effects he's failed to grasp. You accept that

:23:37. > :23:42.he's working within a fixed budget laid down by the UK Government?

:23:42. > :23:45.Perhaps then you are he could explain to me why he is voting

:23:45. > :23:48.against the Scotland Bill which will give the Scottish Government

:23:48. > :23:52.more borrowing powers. He's been arguing for borrowing powers but

:23:52. > :23:56.his party is voting against it, that doesn't make sense for a party

:23:56. > :23:59.trying to resist cuts, apparently. That will be fine except he himself

:23:59. > :24:05.argues, he argues, that what he does in power has made a difference.

:24:05. > :24:08.He keeps saying that plan as implemented by the SNP has made a

:24:08. > :24:11.difference, has altered the course of the recession in Scotland. I

:24:11. > :24:14.don't think it's true, but he argues that case. He says that what

:24:14. > :24:18.he does makes a difference in Scotland. You can't have it both

:24:18. > :24:21.ways, either it does or doesn't. Another issue, you have been tasked

:24:21. > :24:24.by the leader with engaging with the party and bringing out the

:24:24. > :24:28.talent and all that sort of thing. What's the problem at the moment

:24:28. > :24:38.and the diagnosis? We want to be a party that's open to everybody, all

:24:38. > :24:38.

:24:39. > :24:43.parts of Scotland. There will be no no no-go areas. We want the best

:24:43. > :24:46.people representing News West Minister, local Government and

:24:46. > :24:50.Holyrood. The best we can possibly find and that's what we are doing

:24:50. > :24:54.in the years ahead. There was that announcement of the campaign to get

:24:54. > :25:01.new candidates. The Commission looking at more powers for Scotland

:25:01. > :25:03.and a big one that struck me, Johann Lamont to lead the Labour

:25:03. > :25:07.campaign on the union with support from Alistair Darling and Gordon

:25:07. > :25:11.Brown. Indeed, I think you will see there was a very positive response

:25:11. > :25:16.from the hall on that. We are a unified party. We have purpose and

:25:16. > :25:18.direction. We do believe there is broad support support for

:25:18. > :25:21.maintaining the union but a particular Labour case for

:25:21. > :25:25.maintaining the union and giving Scotland a better and brighter

:25:25. > :25:32.future, which will now be directed under a strong vibrant Labour Party

:25:32. > :25:36.under strong vibrant leadership. She talks about lending that Labour

:25:36. > :25:41.campaign where necessary to... Lending it? She said that. She said

:25:41. > :25:45.lending it to others, loaned to other parties. That's a bit

:25:45. > :25:48.partisan, should you not join together in a common front? I have

:25:48. > :25:51.said all along and many people agree that of course where you

:25:51. > :25:55.share an agenda of people, we are not frightened of working with

:25:55. > :25:59.others, of course but there is a distinct Labour agenda about the

:25:59. > :26:07.future. We are not fighting for this union... A distinct Liberal

:26:07. > :26:10.Democrat agenda. Good luck to them. They will articulate that and we

:26:10. > :26:12.will join with them when appropriate but there's a very

:26:12. > :26:16.proper Labour vision for the future of Scotland. We have not heard

:26:16. > :26:21.enough about that, but now with Johann we will be stepping up and

:26:21. > :26:24.taking that message to all parts of Scotland. I mean, it's a devolution

:26:24. > :26:27.commission. It's reminding people we are the party of devolution.

:26:27. > :26:33.Then, we will lend that support to those who want to oppose the

:26:33. > :26:37.separatists and it was a good argument. Stick with the devolution

:26:38. > :26:42.commission and it's to look at more powers and yet Johann Lamont and

:26:42. > :26:48.other speakers, not least including Ed Miliband, very, very sceptical

:26:48. > :26:52.about tax powers on the intellectual argument you would

:26:52. > :26:58.then lose the wide tax base. starting point for the team is we

:26:58. > :27:02.recognise that in the past people have looked at at - we want to look

:27:02. > :27:05.at open to have the debate and discussion that what powers need to

:27:06. > :27:10.be where, west Westminster, Holyrood and in the best interest

:27:10. > :27:15.of Scotland and want to have that open dialogue across Scotland that

:27:15. > :27:18.we recognise is a parallel process and answer that fundamental

:27:18. > :27:22.question, part of the United Kingdom or separate from it. Let me

:27:22. > :27:26.answer the point about the Labour campaign. There's positive cases

:27:26. > :27:29.for the reason around politics, influence and ability around the

:27:29. > :27:33.world, our security, safety and monetary union we have. There's

:27:33. > :27:38.also a specific Labour case, a social Democrat case for being part

:27:38. > :27:41.of the United Kingdom. We funmently believe in equality of opportunity

:27:41. > :27:47.and distribution of wealth. It's only Labour that can make that case,

:27:47. > :27:50.not The Conservative Party. I heard you say corporation tax. Many

:27:50. > :27:53.people in Scotland are worried about, because every time Alex

:27:53. > :27:56.Salmond talks about devolution of corporation tax he always talks

:27:56. > :27:59.about reducing it and the implications for Scotland are

:27:59. > :28:02.enormous. Now is the time for to us step up and question the details of

:28:02. > :28:08.what's going to actually happen in Scotland. What about the transfer

:28:08. > :28:11.of all of income tax, would you say that has that same concern perhaps?

:28:11. > :28:15.Johann Lamont has made it clear to say we are open-minded about what

:28:15. > :28:19.the future holds but we will put it under very specific scrutiny and

:28:19. > :28:26.the key test will be help Scotland, will it help the Scottish people,

:28:26. > :28:29.will it advance social justice in Scotland? Devo-plus, corporation

:28:29. > :28:32.tax, income tax, not VAT, not national insurance. It's

:28:32. > :28:36.corporation tax and income tax transferred to Scotland. You are

:28:37. > :28:43.against that, aren't you? You know what the problem is, nobody really

:28:43. > :28:52.knows what these terms mean. What devo-max means... Corporation tax

:28:52. > :28:57.and tack incomes. --. And income tax. We will look at the case and

:28:57. > :29:01.evidence and and argue on it, does help the Scottish people? Let me

:29:01. > :29:05.try another thing with each of you, direct quote from the speech, I

:29:05. > :29:09.believe power lies with the Scottish people. You believe that,

:29:09. > :29:12.accept that? Why not put your proposition of more powers to the

:29:12. > :29:15.people in a referendum? proposition on devolution? Yeah.

:29:15. > :29:20.Well, I am not against that but you can't do it in the same time as a

:29:20. > :29:27.separatist vote. Why not? The two would be contradict Torrey. If you

:29:27. > :29:29.vote, for the sake of argument, 51% vote for independence but 98% vote

:29:29. > :29:35.for devolution, what's going to happen? You can't then say there's

:29:35. > :29:39.a majority in favour of of independence. Why don't you tput in

:29:39. > :29:43.competition. Economy one, do you want change, question two what

:29:43. > :29:46.change do you want? Again you are putting devolution in the context

:29:46. > :29:55.of separation and there are two separate directions. Devolution

:29:55. > :29:59.does not lead to independence, it There is a mandate for a single

:29:59. > :30:04.question referendum. We are open to have the debate about devolution.

:30:04. > :30:12.To be clear, where Labour will be in this process, the only vote that

:30:12. > :30:15.kills the pollution as a concert or a process is the yes, no. So you

:30:15. > :30:20.say no to put it on a paper alongside independence? There is a

:30:20. > :30:24.big enough debate to be had. referendum is about making a

:30:24. > :30:29.decision about our future. We need to have the opinion of this got is

:30:29. > :30:35.that people and we can't do that if we separate from the UK -- the

:30:35. > :30:39.opinion of the Scottish people. you come up with a radical proposal

:30:39. > :30:45.for more powers, would you accept that that would require, on his own,

:30:45. > :30:49.a referendum? We will see how that debate emerges and if it is

:30:49. > :30:54.necessary. We have gone very far in developing devolution as things

:30:54. > :30:59.currently stand. For example, the Scotland Bill. We have a big

:30:59. > :31:03.decision to make about our future. Do we stay in the partnership, or

:31:03. > :31:07.do we leave. That is the big question that needs to be decided

:31:08. > :31:15.for us. Thank you to all of you. We have had the speech and the

:31:15. > :31:22.reaction. We are not allowed to say that we loved the speech. We must

:31:22. > :31:29.say it was moderate and intriguing and entertaining.

:31:29. > :31:33.Thank you. Professor John Curtice is still with me. We have been

:31:33. > :31:37.discussing this -- the issues but let's look at some of the style.

:31:37. > :31:43.How did Johann Lamont do? She dispensed with some of the jokes at

:31:43. > :31:47.the beginning and wrapped it up very quickly. Indeed. There were

:31:47. > :31:52.three characteristics. Undoubtedly it was very passionate. I think

:31:52. > :31:56.anybody who was watching for the first time would say, this is

:31:56. > :32:02.certainly a politician who wears her heart on her sleeve. She has

:32:02. > :32:06.got a very clear sense of values and things that she believes in.

:32:06. > :32:09.That may, I think, helped to persuade the Scottish public to

:32:09. > :32:16.take her seriously. That said. Alongside the passion, I think

:32:16. > :32:22.there was perhaps too much earnestness or nervousness. I am

:32:22. > :32:27.often criticised as speaking too quickly. I can get away with that.

:32:27. > :32:33.A politician cannot. A politician giving a leader's speech has to be

:32:33. > :32:37.able to pause. A politician who is going to build up an audience has

:32:37. > :32:42.got to create those lines in which they invite the audience to applaud,

:32:42. > :32:45.or maybe to cheer, so you build up momentum. In truth, it moved too

:32:45. > :32:49.quickly. I think there were only three interruptions at most in

:32:49. > :32:54.terms of applause. That is something she will have to work out.

:32:54. > :32:58.There was an interesting visual question. One of the things that is

:32:58. > :33:01.going do happen, people may not read the speech but they will see

:33:01. > :33:05.the picture on the television or in the newspaper. She opted to wear a

:33:05. > :33:09.blue dress. Here was somebody giving a very traditional Labour

:33:09. > :33:12.message against a rake -- a red background but she decided to wear

:33:13. > :33:18.a blue dress. I don't know if it was delivered, in trying to say, I

:33:18. > :33:23.may be giving you some fairly passionate social democracy, but I

:33:23. > :33:28.can still reach out to others, or whether it was a mistake. Shall we

:33:28. > :33:32.say, it is surprising to see a Labour leader, won her first outing,

:33:32. > :33:38.wearing a colour that is traditionally associated with the

:33:38. > :33:45.conservative enemies. The speech writers, maybe you're hinting that

:33:45. > :33:55.there wasn't enough texture. The rough and this move in terms of the

:33:55. > :33:57.

:33:57. > :34:02.waves our - the rough and this move We had a section which was a

:34:02. > :34:06.critique of the SNP, which I thought was important. One of the

:34:06. > :34:14.things that has been missing has been to come up with a critique of

:34:14. > :34:18.the SNP's record in office. That was prodded at the round of

:34:18. > :34:22.interviews. It is important, particularly the idea that the SNP

:34:22. > :34:27.are not doing enough for Scotland. This is trying to attack the SNP in

:34:27. > :34:37.terms of the heart of his beliefs. There was an important passage

:34:37. > :34:41.about social justice. We were then moving but but but these are

:34:41. > :34:45.traditional Labour values, and whether the party needs to change.

:34:45. > :34:55.The argument about how the party needs to change and her critique of

:34:55. > :35:02.the Union, they -- their, the joint was not very clear. That bit, I

:35:02. > :35:07.think, was rather more muddled. She didn't always give the signals to

:35:07. > :35:11.the audience that she was moving from one section to another. Thank

:35:11. > :35:18.you, back with you later. This week saw the launch of the devo Plus

:35:18. > :35:24.campaign in Edinburgh. Brian Taylor is at the conference to talk about

:35:24. > :35:33.that a little bit more. Patricia Ferguson and Richard Baker, thanks

:35:33. > :35:37.both for coming. Devo max, devo Plus, independence, devo pass was

:35:37. > :35:41.the campaign launched this week. To transfer control of welfare

:35:41. > :35:44.benefits and corporation tax, but leave National Insurance and VAT at

:35:44. > :35:50.Westminster. Duncan MacNeill is on there as an individual, what does

:35:50. > :35:53.the party think of it as a party perspective? I think the party is

:35:53. > :35:57.interested to hear what other people have to say, and that is why

:35:57. > :36:02.Johann Lamont is setting up her own commission, to work out where our

:36:02. > :36:07.position is in terms of what powers should beware in Scotland. Johann

:36:07. > :36:17.Lamont is right, if we want to be radical, and we do, we have to

:36:17. > :36:21.

:36:21. > :36:24.You want to be radical, and her opening remarks are as best in --

:36:24. > :36:27.expressing reservations about further tax transfers. We want to

:36:27. > :36:32.be radical about making a difference to the lives of people

:36:32. > :36:36.in Scotland. She set out very well, exactly how we want to go about

:36:36. > :36:43.doing that and the kind of Scotland we want to see. That is what really

:36:43. > :36:47.matters, the kind of Scotland we want. Finance is your bag, it is

:36:47. > :36:54.your area. Are you are attracted by the idea of tax powers being

:36:54. > :37:01.transferred, or do you have this rival competing issue of concerns

:37:01. > :37:05.about the tax base being narrowed? We said what the proponents of

:37:05. > :37:08.taxpayers have to show is where the economic benefit lies in Scotland.

:37:08. > :37:12.When we looked at corporation tax, it was going to cost hundreds of

:37:12. > :37:17.millions of pounds, to achieve the cut in corporation tax which the

:37:17. > :37:20.SNP wanted to see. The evidence that would attract the business was

:37:20. > :37:25.extremely poor. That is why we did not support the case of corporation

:37:25. > :37:33.tax, and we do have a concern. We will enter into debate around taxed

:37:33. > :37:39.devolution. We have a concern about a race to the bottom. To be clear,

:37:39. > :37:43.it applies to income tax as well as corporation tax? Not to such an

:37:43. > :37:47.extent to income tax, but particularly corporation tax. There

:37:47. > :37:55.is a concern which would need to be addressed. Explain the point about

:37:55. > :37:59.tax competition. If Scotland cuts corporation tax, for example,

:37:59. > :38:04.everybody is trying to get to the cheapest possible level in terms of

:38:04. > :38:09.corporation tax and income is not coming in from tax revenue. It

:38:09. > :38:13.creates a danger for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

:38:13. > :38:18.am struggling to see that if you start from a fundamental scepticism

:38:18. > :38:24.about transferring tax powers, what is left, if you are doubtful of the

:38:24. > :38:27.very least about tax powers? It is what you do with the money you have,

:38:27. > :38:30.the priorities you said. We have seen Alex Salmond with one of the

:38:30. > :38:34.biggest budgets the Scottish Parliament has had, in spite of the

:38:34. > :38:38.cuts from Westminster that he tells us about every day. But we are not

:38:38. > :38:48.seeing much being done to help the unemployed in my constituency, not

:38:48. > :38:52.seeing much to reduce child poverty. Surely you accept is working with a

:38:52. > :38:58.fixed and declining budget, that it could be 2027 before we are back to

:38:58. > :39:01.the levels of 2010. It is even more important that you make the right

:39:01. > :39:05.choices and have the right priorities, and that is our

:39:05. > :39:13.overwhelming guidance. We want to make sure we make the right choices

:39:13. > :39:19.for the right outcomes for people in Scotland. Thank you, and I can

:39:19. > :39:23.back to the studio. With me, Professor John Curtice. Listening

:39:23. > :39:28.to that, an interesting debate about the new tax powers, are

:39:28. > :39:33.Labour in a difficult position? They are. In a sense what the

:39:33. > :39:39.Labour Party are trying to do is to say to people in Scotland, who

:39:39. > :39:43.makes the decision? It is not so important as what decision is made.

:39:43. > :39:46.Either way, we think decision should be made in such a way that

:39:46. > :39:51.promotes our understanding -- by the way. The problem the Labour

:39:51. > :39:55.Party faces is that when you ask people in Scotland, who should be

:39:55. > :40:01.making decisions about taxation and who should be making decisions for

:40:01. > :40:05.Scotland about welfare benefit, the un said you get is -- the answer

:40:05. > :40:10.you get is that around two-thirds of people in Scotland say, these

:40:10. > :40:15.are the things that the Scottish Parliament should decide for

:40:15. > :40:20.Scotland. The idea of devolving these things is almost as popular

:40:20. > :40:23.as the idea of devolving health and education. That is the problem the

:40:23. > :40:28.Labour Party faces, they are not necessarily where the public are in

:40:28. > :40:33.terms of their perceptions of who should be making the decision.

:40:33. > :40:37.Thank you. I am now joined by Johann Lamont, she has joined me

:40:37. > :40:42.from Dundee. Thank you for joining me, fresh from your first

:40:42. > :40:44.conference speech as leader. You have set out some very detailed

:40:44. > :40:48.proposals in your attempts to refresh the party, you have said it

:40:48. > :40:52.is time to stop apologising. What is the fundamental problem with

:40:52. > :40:57.Labour and how do you hope to get Scottish people re-engaged with the

:40:57. > :41:00.party? I think we have a strong message from people at the last

:41:00. > :41:04.election that we had lost touch with them, they believed we were

:41:04. > :41:08.not standing up for them, not standing up for Scotland, our own

:41:08. > :41:12.interests were more important. We want to get out and speak to people,

:41:12. > :41:17.but their priorities and concerns - - about their priorities. And we

:41:17. > :41:22.want to change our party in order that we cannot serve people once

:41:22. > :41:27.again. You have tasked Anas Sarwar with trying to seek out fresh

:41:27. > :41:32.talent. Is the Labour Party full of dead wood? Far from it. It is clear

:41:32. > :41:36.to us that you have to refresh and renew. You need to deal on all the

:41:37. > :41:40.talents beyond our own party membership. I have said that on

:41:40. > :41:45.occasion, our party has not been sufficiently well coming. We want

:41:45. > :41:49.to make a well-supported -- a way of supporting people who have the

:41:49. > :41:55.capacity to represent us, but also to open up the capacity for natural

:41:55. > :41:59.Labour voters who have not yet made the next step. We want people to be

:41:59. > :42:04.able to engage in the broader political debate and here Labour's

:42:04. > :42:08.message more strongly. Labour have always had a problem with this. The

:42:08. > :42:12.big beasts were normally the men. They have always been down at

:42:12. > :42:17.Westminster. Even in the 2010 election, talent people like

:42:17. > :42:21.Margaret Curran went south to stand at Westminster. What is the problem

:42:21. > :42:25.with Labour at Holyrood attracting good candidates? I don't accept

:42:25. > :42:29.that. We lost a lot of very good, highly talented people in the last

:42:29. > :42:35.election. If you lose badly, you lose a lot of gifted people. Almost

:42:35. > :42:39.by accident, we ended up with some very good people coming in. I want

:42:39. > :42:43.it to be more rigorous. I don't accept that all of the talent lies

:42:43. > :42:49.in one place. I recognise we need to open up our party, draw people

:42:49. > :42:53.on, support them in order that they can represent us. I don't accept

:42:53. > :43:00.the notion that people go to Westminster, and a lot of people

:43:00. > :43:04.choose to go to Holyrood because they do things in a different way.

:43:04. > :43:08.Our tests for candidates is that they have the highest standards and

:43:08. > :43:13.commit themselves to working for the party and to representing the

:43:13. > :43:17.people but they have been voted in by. He pointed out to -- that they

:43:17. > :43:22.have been voted in by. He pointed out that you wanted an electoral

:43:22. > :43:28.machinery that was fit for purpose. It was a massive failure in the

:43:28. > :43:32.last election, wasn't it? I have been honest about this and one of

:43:32. > :43:36.the hardest things to take last May was not just that we were defeated,

:43:36. > :43:42.but we didn't see it coming. That was a political failure but also an

:43:42. > :43:48.electoral failure. We have to do all of those things and we will be

:43:48. > :43:52.examined 18 -- examining how we create the electoral structure to

:43:52. > :43:56.ensure we are reaching out to people with our message, and that

:43:56. > :43:59.will enable, organisationally, to get people to support us at

:43:59. > :44:04.election time. You have announced this commission to look at more

:44:04. > :44:10.powers for Scotland. The Scotland Bill is making its way through the

:44:10. > :44:16.Houses of Parliament, from the Carmen Commission. Is it really

:44:16. > :44:23.time for another commission? have said we were not be painted

:44:23. > :44:25.into a corner by the SNP wanting to define their own position of

:44:25. > :44:28.separation and position in the constitution. I am relaxed about

:44:28. > :44:32.looking at what further powers they should be. How do we make

:44:32. > :44:37.government work better at every level. The test is not what

:44:37. > :44:39.institution it goes to but how that power is used. The devolution

:44:39. > :44:43.Commission in Labour recognises that many people think there should

:44:44. > :44:47.be more power at a Scottish level for but I believe we need to look

:44:48. > :44:51.at how we reinvigorate and support communities going to a local level.

:44:51. > :44:55.It is entirely consistent with our politics to say that we need to

:44:55. > :45:01.look at where best power should lie. That is the test, is it in the

:45:01. > :45:04.interest of people of Scotland? Not a presumption that power comes to

:45:04. > :45:06.Scottish Parliament to create the change that we want. You have

:45:06. > :45:11.announced Alistair Darling will be taking a leading role. He said he

:45:11. > :45:15.was a busy MP and he had to be in London three days a week. When did

:45:15. > :45:19.you speak to him last and when did he change his mind? I speak to him

:45:19. > :45:23.regularly, I was speaking to him this week. He and I, and across the

:45:23. > :45:27.party, we share a passion for a strong Scotland, in partnership

:45:27. > :45:32.with the rest of the United Kingdom. We will put our shoulder to the

:45:32. > :45:36.wheel in arguing Labour's case. We are all confident we can make that

:45:36. > :45:40.case and we will have a role to play, and in my leadership, I want

:45:40. > :45:44.to be inclusive and collective, because we understand the scale of

:45:44. > :45:47.the challenge and the importance of the decision facing the people of

:45:47. > :45:51.Scotland. Do they want to lead a partnership that has worked well

:45:51. > :45:58.for so many years, or do they want to stay, but make the partnership

:45:58. > :46:02.stronger, by looking again at how devolution works? As part of that

:46:02. > :46:09.debate, we were talking about the new powers for the parliament, it

:46:09. > :46:12.is interesting that you mentioned the competition, the race to the

:46:12. > :46:18.bottom of the taxes. You were concerned about that. It is

:46:18. > :46:25.interesting did hear that with devo Plus, you would have more taxes

:46:25. > :46:30.devolved to Scotland and you have concerns about that. -- interesting

:46:30. > :46:35.to hear that. I think like many people, the test is what works in

:46:35. > :46:38.the best interest of the people of Scotland. It is about looking at

:46:38. > :46:42.the evidence. The devolution commission will look at the

:46:42. > :46:47.evidence and Test against our commitment to social justice.

:46:47. > :46:50.Strong economy and shared prosperity. Many economists say

:46:50. > :46:55.that you end up with wasteful competition and obviously, that is

:46:55. > :46:59.not something we would support. I am very clear that nothing is off

:46:59. > :47:05.the table, we need to test it and rationalise it against the evidence.

:47:05. > :47:11.Rather than by some view, or having some more powers will strengthen

:47:11. > :47:16.Scotland and making it a better place. If you're talking about the

:47:16. > :47:21.case for strengthening Scotland, who used -- we stand shoulder to

:47:22. > :47:26.shoulder with? We be appearing with Gordon Brown? -- will you be

:47:26. > :47:29.appearing with Gordon Brown, or David Cameron? This is where

:47:30. > :47:36.constitutional politics take Sue. Parties to support being inside the

:47:36. > :47:40.United Kingdom will come together - - constitutional politics takes you.

:47:40. > :47:45.I am very confident that there will be an important role for Gordon

:47:45. > :47:48.Brown, Alistair Darling. We recognise there will be other

:47:48. > :47:53.voices arguing for the United Kingdom, and where we can work

:47:53. > :47:57.together, we will. You boasted you were the new Scottish Labour Party,

:47:57. > :48:01.the leader of the MPs and the MSPs. Speaking to a senior party figure

:48:01. > :48:06.at Westminster, when it came to the suspension will Eric Joyce, it was

:48:06. > :48:11.Ed Miliband who took that decision and not you. Are you really in

:48:11. > :48:15.charge of the MPs as well as the MSPs? I can assure you I am the

:48:15. > :48:22.Scottish Labour leader, and what is on the tin is what happens. We have

:48:22. > :48:27.had the discussion about Eric Joyce's administrative suspension

:48:27. > :48:31.from the party, but I made it very clear that recent reports -- if

:48:31. > :48:36.written reports about his behaviour are clear, then I do not regard him

:48:36. > :48:41.as somebody who is fit to stand as a Labour candidate. Thank you very

:48:42. > :48:46.much for joining us. Professor John Curtice is still

:48:47. > :48:54.with me. Let's pick up on some of the things that Johann Lamont was

:48:54. > :48:59.saying, speaking about the election. She made it very clear that it was

:48:59. > :49:06.time to stop apologising. Undoubtedly. This is the time at

:49:06. > :49:09.which the Labour Party is trying to put a line in the sand. I think as

:49:09. > :49:14.we have been hearing, one of the important things that has happened

:49:14. > :49:20.is that the Labour Party is beginning to settle down to the

:49:20. > :49:24.task of the opposition in the Holyrood. The task of any party in

:49:24. > :49:29.opposition is to come up with and critique of what the government is

:49:29. > :49:33.doing. We have had two elements of that. One is trying to suggest that

:49:33. > :49:36.the SNP are similar to the Conservatives in the way in which

:49:36. > :49:44.they are approaching the issue of cutting public expenditure.

:49:44. > :49:48.Secondly, trying to argue that the SNP are not doing things in terms

:49:48. > :49:52.of Scotland's interest. The criticisms of the Forth Road Bridge

:49:52. > :49:57.contract, some would argue that the SNP couldn't do much about that

:49:57. > :50:03.because of European Union rules. Leaving that to one side, it means

:50:03. > :50:07.they are trying to suggest the SNP are not necessarily a progressive,

:50:07. > :50:12.or a party standing up for Scotland. That is the kind of thing the

:50:12. > :50:17.Labour Party needs to do, to try to undermine the impression of the SNP,

:50:17. > :50:21.that the SNP has been trying to convey. That has been important and

:50:21. > :50:24.it means the Labour Party is moving on, it is trying to work out how it

:50:24. > :50:33.gets from the position it's that to a position where it might be more

:50:33. > :50:43.popular than the SNP wants more -- from the position it is at.

:50:43. > :50:46.

:50:46. > :50:52.Brian Taylor is standing by with An Swanson, what do you make of the

:50:52. > :50:55.speech, a series of announcements, it was policy-rich but none of it

:50:55. > :50:58.precise? The most significant thing this announcement about having a

:50:58. > :51:02.Commission which mean that is Labour are going to look into what

:51:02. > :51:06.more powers they think are needed for Holyrood, if any, and she's

:51:06. > :51:10.going to lead that and include various other people from the party.

:51:10. > :51:13.She was going further than that in setting out arguments why she

:51:14. > :51:18.thought it was important not to go for independence, but to stay part

:51:18. > :51:21.of the union, it was more arguments today, rather than just the slogans

:51:21. > :51:25.that we heard from some Labour people in the past. Andy Nickell,

:51:25. > :51:30.from the Sun, she's setting up a Commission and they're all talking

:51:30. > :51:34.about it being radical, at the same time she's dising the idea of

:51:34. > :51:39.corporation tax possibly and income tax being transferred? It was a

:51:39. > :51:43.little bit alarming from my point of view, according to Johann Lamont

:51:44. > :51:47.the idea that you can have a low tax, low public spending economy,

:51:47. > :51:51.doesn't fit in with Scottish politics. Does that mean what she

:51:51. > :52:00.sees as a high tax high public spend economy, when in a few years'

:52:00. > :52:05.time so many more taxpayers taxpayers - she would want to tax

:52:05. > :52:09.more and spend more. Those advocating devo-plus that campaign

:52:09. > :52:13.launched this week, end of a campaign from Reform Scotland, talk

:52:13. > :52:20.being the advantages of tax competition, she's contesting that

:52:20. > :52:24.idealogically. Tkpweb I find that baffling, you might want to attract

:52:24. > :52:27.businesses to employ people who then find tax. They find that

:52:27. > :52:31.alarming, I don't know why. Corporation tax has become

:52:31. > :52:34.something of a litmus test in this debate if parties are serious about

:52:34. > :52:39.devolving serious powers, corporation tax has to be in the

:52:39. > :52:43.mix. She seems to be ruling it out from the start. Ed Miliband was

:52:43. > :52:47.sceptical as well. One of the big themes is we are the party that can

:52:47. > :52:51.put Scotland first, but they don't seem ready to put Scotland first if

:52:51. > :52:56.it disadvantages the rest of the United Kingdom and on some issues

:52:56. > :53:01.likes corporation tax that may be necessary. You have the check on

:53:01. > :53:05.candidates, Anas sar swar is -- Sarwar is going to do. The third

:53:05. > :53:08.announcement was a campaign to promote the union but a Labour

:53:08. > :53:12.campaign to promote the union with Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown

:53:12. > :53:17.and it will be on loan to other parties, if necessary, what do you

:53:17. > :53:23.make of that? There was a sort of hidden hand of friendship, she said

:53:23. > :53:27.she would work with other parties, she's moved a bit on that. She was

:53:27. > :53:33.reluctant to go into bed with the Conservatives when first elected.

:53:33. > :53:36.She doesn't want to cede ground. They want to occupy the centre

:53:36. > :53:40.ground of Scottish politics because they believe people want more

:53:40. > :53:45.powers, and talk about that but they want to exclude and shunt

:53:45. > :53:49.aside the other parties. They want to where the votes are. What about

:53:49. > :53:53.this Labour campaign to save the union, or promote the union rather?

:53:53. > :53:58.Well, I think we can have a two- question referendum, either

:53:59. > :54:02.independence or more powers. The point is while Labour, Tory and Lib

:54:02. > :54:06.Dem agree there should be... They don't agree on what they are.

:54:06. > :54:10.when we are going to get them except we have to vote no before

:54:10. > :54:13.anything else. There might be an attraction to the right on

:54:13. > :54:16.transferring tax in order to bring about the very competition you were

:54:16. > :54:19.speaking about. And the thing they don't want to do here. What about

:54:19. > :54:24.this Labour campaign, Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown on board,

:54:24. > :54:27.but it's going to be loaned or handed on to the others. I am not

:54:27. > :54:29.sure it's that surprising the parties want to have their own

:54:30. > :54:33.campaigns because they believe in different things. I think there's a

:54:33. > :54:38.problem now with we have too many Commissions and campaigns going on,

:54:38. > :54:43.there's going to be confusion because the Lib Dems have their own

:54:43. > :54:47.Commission, the Scotland's Future debate going on, the devo-plus

:54:47. > :54:50.people were launching last week. With Labour it's almost too late,

:54:50. > :54:53.because they're coming to this debate very late when Labour as the

:54:53. > :54:58.people that deliver devolution in the first first place should have

:54:58. > :55:03.been leading the debate. The issue of talents within the Labour Party,

:55:03. > :55:08.she said the big beasts at Westminster, or men as I call them,

:55:08. > :55:14.good gag. Was it an indication she's at least alert to this

:55:14. > :55:18.accusation they don't have a vast talent at Holyrood. I think people

:55:18. > :55:23.have always been quite quick to sort of rubbish the talent at

:55:23. > :55:26.Holyrood and they were doing that when Labour were easily the biggest

:55:26. > :55:29.party, as well. But obviously Labour are very diminished now

:55:29. > :55:34.since last year's election and so they're almost by definition

:55:34. > :55:39.they're struggling. What about this reaching out for new candidates and

:55:39. > :55:42.something every party does all the time or something new to this.

:55:42. > :55:46.hope there's something new to this. While reaching out all the time

:55:46. > :55:48.they've been from a certain limited number of trees they've shaken and

:55:48. > :55:55.people in the Scottish parliament now that nobody, certainly people

:55:55. > :56:00.within the Labour Party never expected would ever become MS --

:56:00. > :56:04.MSPs, but they came up the list. There is a dearth of talent.

:56:04. > :56:08.was frank with that. The party structure has straoeufled talent

:56:08. > :56:11.because often those people picked as candidates is because they're a

:56:11. > :56:14.relative or friend or something like that. She wants to open up the

:56:14. > :56:18.process but the most recent example of that is in Glasgow City Council

:56:18. > :56:23.where there's been a horrible backlash because it was thought to

:56:23. > :56:27.be a flawed heavy-handed way so they've have to learn from that.

:56:27. > :56:31.was strange we have Anas Sarwar, who inherited the seat from his

:56:31. > :56:37.father now leading this campaign to widen the pool. Let's talk about

:56:37. > :56:44.ther issue addressed in great detail, public spending. She was

:56:44. > :56:49.saying Alex Salmond was (making) matters -- was making matters worse.

:56:49. > :56:52.Do you think that's an attack on play with the public? I think

:56:52. > :56:56.public spending cuts are obviously things that do affect people and so

:56:56. > :57:00.I think Labour are quite alert to that and the fact that council

:57:00. > :57:03.elections are coming up in 61 days we were reminded this morning. It

:57:03. > :57:07.means there is going to be a lot of focus on cuts right at the grass

:57:07. > :57:12.roots where it does mat tore people and if Labour can manage to

:57:12. > :57:18.persuade voters that's something they would be able to try to stop.

:57:18. > :57:22.Try to pin the blame on Holyrood, rather than Westminster. Alex

:57:22. > :57:27.Salmond says the source is Westminster. There's no explanation

:57:27. > :57:31.about where this extra money should come from. If there's less money

:57:31. > :57:34.from Westminster, where is the more money? They say he is making wrong

:57:34. > :57:39.choices, within the money available. So what would they rather spend it

:57:39. > :57:41.on? Fair point. They've learned the lesson from the last Holyrood

:57:41. > :57:46.election where they started attacking the Conservatives, they

:57:46. > :57:51.have to attack the local man, Alex Salmond who got I think 20 mentions

:57:51. > :57:54.in the speech. Personalised the attack heavily against Salmond

:57:54. > :57:58.because his demeanour puts off a lot of voters as well as attracting

:57:58. > :58:01.them. Just before the last election campaign started Ed Miliband at the

:58:01. > :58:04.Labour conference in Glasgow say Scottish elections were a chance to

:58:04. > :58:07.send a message to the Tories and a message to Westminster. There was

:58:07. > :58:13.hardly any mention of that. They made a mess of that one so they're

:58:13. > :58:16.going for the face of the cuts, making Salmond into the face of the

:58:16. > :58:19.cuts. Economically doesn't make much sense but politically the

:58:19. > :58:26.logic is impeccable, they have to attack Salmond. If people are

:58:26. > :58:30.feeling pain perhaps then they will perhaps accept the message. As Tom

:58:30. > :58:34.says, this time they've forgotten to mention Mrs Thatcher, at long

:58:34. > :58:38.last she's been consigned to history. Thank you very much for

:58:38. > :58:43.joining me. Back to the studio. Thank you very much, we will see

:58:43. > :58:47.you tomorrow at the Lib Dem conference. The coverage continues

:58:47. > :58:51.in Sunday Politics tomorrow. We are reporting from the Scottish Lib Dem

:58:51. > :58:54.conference here, we have have an interview with Nick Clegg. Also a

:58:54. > :59:04.report from Scottish Labour's conference, Johann Lamont will be

:59:04. > :59:05.

:59:05. > :59:11.joining us live at the time of 12.00.

:59:11. > :59:14.That's Sunday Politics tomorrow. A earlier time. That brings our

:59:14. > :59:17.television coverage to a close of the Scottish Labour Party

:59:17. > :59:21.conference in Dundee. There's plenty more coverage online. My

:59:21. > :59:28.thanks to Professor John Curtis for his company here all this afternoon.

:59:28. > :59:33.We will both be back tomorrow morning for the Lib Dem conference