20/04/2013

:01:29. > :01:38.Ed Miliband came to Inverness to declare that the Labour Party is on

:01:38. > :01:43.its way back. In his conference address he

:01:43. > :01:49.branded the coalition as heartless and hopeless and called for a new

:01:49. > :01:59.economic settlement. So one day become an says, we're all

:01:59. > :02:01.

:02:01. > :02:03.Thatcherites now, I have news for him. We are not. A pause. -- a

:02:03. > :02:08.pause. He's said Labour would unite the

:02:08. > :02:13.country, the Tories and the SNP were divided, that Alex Salmond was

:02:13. > :02:17.pursuing... A narrow nationalism that plays for Tory success,

:02:17. > :02:23.because he thinks it's the only way to convince the people of Scotland

:02:23. > :02:29.they should leave the United Kingdom. Can you imagine it?

:02:29. > :02:35.Miliband has made very clear what Labour is against. When it comes to

:02:36. > :02:40.the referendum, he has yet to explain what Labour is in favour of.

:02:40. > :02:44.What its alternative is to Alex Salmond's plans for independence.

:02:44. > :02:54.Johann Lamont's commission on Holyrood powers has proposed

:02:54. > :03:31.

:03:31. > :03:36.And on the subject of MPs, I would say to those unnamed colleagues

:03:36. > :03:43.spitting their dummies out this week, get over it, and engage in

:03:43. > :03:47.particle cetacean. Mr Miliband kept his views to himself. Are you for

:03:47. > :03:54.Against the full devolution of income tax? Have you reached a

:03:54. > :03:59.view? If Labour is on its way back, it still has much work to do on

:03:59. > :04:03.setting out its alternative. I am joined by Professor John

:04:03. > :04:06.Curtice of Strathclyde University, and our political editor Brian

:04:06. > :04:12.Taylor is in Inverness. Good afternoon, Brian, thank you for

:04:12. > :04:17.joining me. As we head towards the independence referendum, this is a

:04:18. > :04:22.fairly critical Conference for Labour? Yes, but it is curious,

:04:22. > :04:26.because the commissioned reports is definitely the dog that didn't bark,

:04:26. > :04:30.or if it did, it is barking very gently. They are not discussing it

:04:30. > :04:37.on the floor of the conference. I think there has been difficulty

:04:37. > :04:43.over the nature of the launch. It is being stressed, and those who

:04:43. > :04:47.are behind it stress this point, it is an interim document, the first

:04:47. > :04:52.step, not the end, perhaps that wasn't fully understood, they feel,

:04:52. > :04:56.by the critics. The debate or discussion will get under way now.

:04:56. > :05:01.You have the concern about the nature of the launch, that will

:05:01. > :05:05.dissipate, it will really go. But then you have concerns amongst some

:05:05. > :05:09.MPs, particularly the older generation, perhaps, those who were

:05:09. > :05:15.there before devolution, that their status might be reduced in some way

:05:15. > :05:23.if the remit of Westminster over Scotland is reduced. Even numbers

:05:23. > :05:28.might be reduced in some way. Then there is the second concern, that

:05:28. > :05:33.is that if you do for all of income tax to Scotland, would there be a

:05:33. > :05:43.cut in the spending available, with the formula, under question, would

:05:43. > :05:44.

:05:44. > :05:49.it be abolished? That is a genuine concern held not just by MSPs...

:05:49. > :05:53.Not just by MPs and party people in Westminster, but across the party

:05:53. > :05:58.more generally. I think once the kerfuffle over the nature of the

:05:58. > :06:02.launch has died down and they all engage in the debate, that is what

:06:02. > :06:07.will feature. There is another element, the party has to decide

:06:07. > :06:13.how far it wants to go in making an offer. It knows it has to make some

:06:13. > :06:18.form of offer to pre-empt or to counter independence, it must be

:06:18. > :06:21.saying no, but, with an offer. It is whether they need to go so far

:06:21. > :06:26.down the road that there is a substantial devolution of powers,

:06:26. > :06:30.or whether only a small scale change would be sufficient. Hearing

:06:30. > :06:36.what Brian has been saying, what does this mean for Johann Lamont as

:06:36. > :06:42.a leader if she tries to exert her authority in the party, not just in

:06:42. > :06:52.Edinburgh but in London? Certainly it is adjusting to the fact that

:06:52. > :07:02.

:07:02. > :07:07.her party dominates Scottish up under Ming Campbell with a

:07:07. > :07:11.proposal for, indeed, substantial devolution of taxation. Now, the

:07:12. > :07:14.Labour Party, if you read the detail of what is in the interim report, it

:07:14. > :07:17.is similar to what the Liberal Democrats has suggested but the tone

:07:17. > :07:20.of the presentation has been very, very different and you have seen the

:07:20. > :07:25.Labour Party struggle for so. Reasons that Brian has outlined to

:07:25. > :07:29.actually go behind. This is something they wish to endorse and

:07:29. > :07:34.demonstrate enthusiasm for. Perhaps also beyond this, there is another

:07:34. > :07:39.question the party has to answer, which in a sense is: If indeed more

:07:39. > :07:44.taxation such as income tax should be devolved what would Johann Lamont

:07:44. > :07:46.and her colleagues want to do with T here is an obvious gap between

:07:46. > :07:51.Labour's position and the Conservatives. Ruth Davidson in

:07:51. > :07:54.coming up with her own commission has been clear. She says: I wish

:07:54. > :07:59.Holyrood to have tax powers, particularly over income tax, so I

:07:59. > :08:03.can go in a Scottish re-election and say - I think it should be reduced.

:08:03. > :08:06.She has a clear link between her social and economic agenda and what

:08:06. > :08:11.she's suggesting for constitutional powers. The Labour Party not willing

:08:11. > :08:17.at the moment to say - if we do have these powers, what will it want to

:08:17. > :08:20.do with it? How might Scotland be improved as a society, if it had

:08:20. > :08:23.these taxation powers that the interim report talks about. We see

:08:23. > :08:29.the delegates filing into the hall behind you there. You said that this

:08:29. > :08:38.is the dog that didn't bark in the night. Do you think she'll retlect

:08:39. > :08:42.flect this debate in her speech? think there will be a reference to

:08:42. > :08:44.the Labour's constitutional commission, it was Johann Lamont who

:08:44. > :08:48.set it up in the first place. But you have something of a tension

:08:48. > :08:52.going on here between the various elements. This is not Labour's

:08:52. > :08:56.natural agenda. I know they were the party who legislated for

:08:56. > :09:00.self-Government, but the moving on from that to enhanced devolution is

:09:00. > :09:03.not really where they want to be. They want to be talking about social

:09:03. > :09:07.justice and social justice within the economy but they are

:09:07. > :09:10.recognising, I think the more intelligent and astute among them

:09:10. > :09:15.are recognising they cannot wish away the referendum on independence,

:09:15. > :09:20.however much they would want to do so. Why? Because they got beat. They

:09:20. > :09:26.got beaten in 2007. They jot thumped in 2011, reflecting the views,

:09:26. > :09:30.again, of senior strategists. Here. They must address that question at

:09:30. > :09:35.the same time as allying it to social justice. The point John made

:09:35. > :09:37.about what you do with the tax powers is intriguing. It is the

:09:37. > :09:41.intrinsic logic of the Conservative position that they require a

:09:41. > :09:47.substantial tax base upon which you can Prince Edward gate a credible

:09:47. > :09:53.offer of tax cutting -- you can predigate.

:09:53. > :09:56.It is too limited, too little to allow a credible tax cut to be

:09:56. > :09:59.proposed but if you have the full control of income tax you could do

:09:59. > :10:03.that. That's the discussion that Labour is also having, what you want

:10:03. > :10:07.to do with the powers of Holyrood. One union said here that Labour was

:10:08. > :10:12.getting the debate all around the wrong way. They should be going

:10:12. > :10:15.first with what they want Holyrood to do in terms of social justice and

:10:15. > :10:18.fit powers to match that. Thank you very much.

:10:18. > :10:22.We mentioned Ed Miliband there, yesterday he devoted much of his

:10:22. > :10:29.speech to reviving the economy, let's listen in a little more to

:10:29. > :10:34.let's listen in a little more to what he had to say. We have huge as

:10:34. > :10:38.a country. They are the challenges we have to rise to and we have to do

:10:38. > :10:48.so in difficult and different time from a past. A time when there is

:10:48. > :10:51.from a past. A time when there is less money around. Toast he at task

:10:51. > :10:56.of the next Labour Government. The way we do that is with a simple

:10:56. > :11:02.idea. A simple idea which expresses who we are as a party We understand

:11:02. > :11:09.that the way countriesed succeed, the way economies succeed is when

:11:09. > :11:13.you have a recovery and an economy, an economy made by the many not just

:11:13. > :11:17.the few at the top. When you back the people who put in the hours, who

:11:17. > :11:20.do the shifts, who get up in the morning before George Osborne's

:11:20. > :11:24.morning before George Osborne's curtains are open. And get back home

:11:24. > :11:28.at night after his curtains have closed again for the night.

:11:28. > :11:33.They are the people we need to back. You know, they are the forgotten

:11:33. > :11:38.wealth creators of this country. So, how do we do it? The first thing we

:11:38. > :11:41.have to do, and you know this here in Scotland, is we have to tackle

:11:41. > :11:45.the decades-long issue of the way our banking system works. It's

:11:45. > :11:51.our banking system works. It's simple: we need banks that serve our

:11:51. > :11:56.businesses, not businesses that serve our banks. That's why our

:11:56. > :12:02.plans are to establish a regional bank in every part of this country,

:12:02. > :12:06.in every part of Britain, serving our small businesses. Banks serving

:12:06. > :12:09.their communities, getting back to the old principles of banking,

:12:09. > :12:17.principles we should be proud of and principles we should restore in the

:12:17. > :12:20.banking system of the United Kingdom.

:12:20. > :12:24.APPLAUSE We need to tackle the decades-long

:12:24. > :12:27.problem of short termism. What is hae that about? It is about the

:12:27. > :12:31.businesses that want to plan for five or ten years ahead but find

:12:31. > :12:35.they can't because of the short-term pressures on them. He with should

:12:35. > :12:38.get rid of the quarterly accounting rules that force those businesses in

:12:38. > :12:44.the short-term decisions and do something else. We should prevent

:12:44. > :12:52.the takeovers, where the hedge funds and speculators swoop in for a quick

:12:52. > :12:55.profit, not actually to help the businesses. We've got to tackle the

:12:55. > :13:01.decades-long problem of vocational education in this country. It is

:13:01. > :13:06.what I want to do with a Prime Minister of Britain, looking with

:13:06. > :13:12.the new First Minister Johann Lamont. We know there is a huge

:13:12. > :13:16.challenge. We must reject the idea. Frankly, it has been an ideal in our

:13:16. > :13:21.culture for so long, that university is best and vocational education is

:13:21. > :13:26.second-best. To every young person, we need to give them high-quality

:13:26. > :13:29.real apprenticeships to aspire to in this country.

:13:30. > :13:34.APPLAUSE We need to tackle the decades-long

:13:34. > :13:39.problem of not building enough homes in Britain. Which puts

:13:39. > :13:45.home-ownership out of reach. And puts fair rents out of reach, too.

:13:45. > :13:49.That is why we said we should be using the money from the 4G spectrum

:13:49. > :13:53.auction for something very simple: To start building homes again in

:13:53. > :14:03.Britain and putting construction workers back to work. That is what

:14:03. > :14:03.

:14:03. > :14:06.this Government should be doing. And you know, you know, to have a

:14:06. > :14:10.recovery made by the many, everybody has to contribute, if they can do

:14:10. > :14:16.so. You know what is really interesting, for all this

:14:16. > :14:20.Government's rhetoric about welfare reform, for all their cuts, do you

:14:20. > :14:24.know that the costs of economic failure are just going up and up?

:14:24. > :14:29.Because they haven't got the growth Because they haven't got the growth

:14:29. > :14:33.in our economy. And there is one party only in the British politics

:14:33. > :14:37.that is actually saying -- let's tackle the scourge of long-term

:14:37. > :14:42.unemployment. And it's the Labour Party. A compulsory jobs guarantee

:14:42. > :14:52.for the nearly 7,000 young people in Scotland who have been unemployed

:14:52. > :14:53.

:14:53. > :14:56.for more than a year. And for all of those over-25, the 15,000 who have

:14:57. > :15:03.unemployed more than two years. Real jobs with real rights to work and

:15:03. > :15:06.real responsibilities to do so. And friends, let me say this - you know

:15:06. > :15:10.that in some communities there are a minority who can work and aren't

:15:10. > :15:15.doing so. And we should put them back to work. But you also know this

:15:15. > :15:21.- that in many, many communities, there is a very vast majority who

:15:21. > :15:25.are desperate to work. And what I'm never going to do, as leader of the

:15:25. > :15:30.Labour Party, is say to the young person in Inverness, desperately

:15:30. > :15:34.searching for a job, or the older person in Ipswich, desperately

:15:34. > :15:44.looking for employment, that somehow, they are a scrounger a

:15:44. > :15:55.

:15:55. > :15:59.We know the way countries suck veed is by uniting them and not dividing

:15:59. > :16:04.them. There is something else we have to do, you cannot have a

:16:04. > :16:08.recovery made by the many, if family budgets are just squeezed year on

:16:08. > :16:12.year on year. You have to tackle the living standards crisis that your

:16:12. > :16:15.country faces. That's why we are in Government now. We would be

:16:15. > :16:18.cancelling that millionaire's tax cut and protecting the tax credits

:16:18. > :16:28.cut and protecting the tax credits that make work pay.

:16:28. > :16:34.

:16:34. > :16:39.that make work pay. Would be introducing a 10p income

:16:39. > :16:46.tax rate, and we would be breaking the stranglehold of the big energy

:16:46. > :16:51.companies in this country. That is how we start to build trust. That

:16:51. > :16:55.is how we start to turn Arie economy around and build a new

:16:56. > :17:04.economy which we need for the future. What about Alex Salmond?

:17:04. > :17:11.What about the SNP? As we plan a new economic future for the country,

:17:11. > :17:17.Alex Salmond wants to draw a line through our country. And, you know,

:17:17. > :17:23.it's the same device of politics as the Tories, it's just a different

:17:23. > :17:28.poor -- form of division. They want to set those people in work against

:17:28. > :17:31.those out-of-work, the public sector against the private sector.

:17:31. > :17:37.Those people in trade unions against those people outside trade

:17:37. > :17:41.unions. That is what the Tories want. What does he want? To divide

:17:41. > :17:46.the people of Scotland and the people of the rest of the United

:17:46. > :17:51.Kingdom. It is wrong, friends, because countries succeed when they

:17:51. > :17:55.unite, and not when they divide. The Labour leader, Ed Miliband,

:17:55. > :17:59.speaking yesterday. We will be heading back to Inverness soon for

:17:59. > :18:03.Johann Lamont's speech, but Professor John Curtice is still

:18:03. > :18:08.with me. What does Johann Lamont have to do this afternoon?

:18:08. > :18:13.crucial thing she needs to do is indicate that she has authority

:18:13. > :18:17.over her party, and an ability to give its strategic direction. We

:18:17. > :18:21.have already talked about the argument inside the party about the

:18:21. > :18:28.interim report on devolution, she needs to give a clear indication of

:18:28. > :18:33.how enthusiastic she is for this. Under the controversy which has

:18:33. > :18:37.surrounded her in recent months was the speech back in September worse

:18:37. > :18:41.she suggested that perhaps the Labour Party would no longer --

:18:41. > :18:45.where she suggested that perhaps the Labour Party would no longer

:18:45. > :18:50.endorse the idea of free universities, personal care and bus

:18:50. > :18:56.passes for people. We are told that she will talk about education and

:18:56. > :19:00.she will talk about how the funding that has gone to universities has

:19:00. > :19:07.her to further education. I wonder whether she will indicate that the

:19:07. > :19:11.Scottish Labour Party agrees with beginning to charge for Higher

:19:11. > :19:17.Education. Here is Johann Lamont receiving her APPLAUSE, a standing

:19:17. > :19:25.ovation, just before she begins her speech. That is live from the Eden

:19:25. > :19:29.Court Theatre in Inverness. Are, she is hugging Anas Sarwar, Berg

:19:29. > :19:36.Deputy Scottish leader of Labour. She is taking to the podium to

:19:37. > :19:41.begin his speech. There was a reference back in the

:19:41. > :19:44.arrangements committee not to hear me, and after me putting my best

:19:44. > :19:48.suit armour as well! Conference, I want to start by

:19:48. > :19:51.saying thank you. Thank you to my beloved family, thank you to

:19:51. > :19:55.everyone in this hall and the many people beyond it who have gone out

:19:55. > :20:05.of their way to support me as we rebuild our party. In the language

:20:05. > :20:09.

:20:09. > :20:12.of my forebears, can I just say, SPEAKS IN GARLIC. I relish this job,

:20:12. > :20:21.every part of it. It is wonderful to be in Inverness in such a

:20:21. > :20:31.beautiful weekend, to see those who say that the sun will only shine

:20:31. > :20:32.

:20:32. > :20:34.after September 2014. APPLAUSE.And I want to thank my deputy Anas

:20:34. > :20:42.Sarwar and my old and dear friend Margaret Curran for their support,

:20:42. > :20:50.too. I have asked them both to go on a charm offensive, Anas Sarwar

:20:50. > :20:55.can supply the charm and Margaret can play to her strengths, too!

:20:55. > :20:59.LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE. Margaret and I have been making jokes at each

:20:59. > :21:02.other's expense for more years than I care to reveal, but in all

:21:02. > :21:12.seriousness, her friendship and support has made the hugest

:21:12. > :21:14.

:21:14. > :21:17.difference to me in the last year. Thank you, Sister. APPLAUSE.

:21:17. > :21:22.The early days of my attendance at Labour Party conference were

:21:22. > :21:27.dominated by anger, revulsion and determination to rid Margaret

:21:27. > :21:32.Thatcher and the Tories from office. Never then did I imagine that one

:21:32. > :21:35.day I would be addressing a Scottish Labour Party conference as

:21:35. > :21:39.leader in the week when she was buried. Her death has reminded us

:21:39. > :21:43.all of the damage she did to our country, the pain she brought to

:21:43. > :21:48.too many people throughout this land and the legacy of division she

:21:48. > :21:52.has that. I have been struck with the dignity of the communities -

:21:52. > :21:56.the miners, the shipyard workers, the steel workers - as they

:21:56. > :22:02.recalled the vandalism she wrought, not least the dignity of David

:22:02. > :22:05.Hamilton MP, himself a former miner, who spoke of his regrets that the

:22:06. > :22:15.only time Margaret Thatcher shed 80 a forehead job lost was when she

:22:16. > :22:21.

:22:21. > :22:25.lost her own. -- shed a tear for a job lost. I remember the truth, not

:22:25. > :22:29.just that her era was ushered in by the SNP bringing down a Labour

:22:29. > :22:32.government but that it was our failures as a party when we divided

:22:32. > :22:42.against each other that allowed her to prosper. We will never allow

:22:42. > :22:47.that to happen again. APPLAUSE.I'm not asking anyone either to forget

:22:48. > :22:51.or forgive what Thatcher did. We never will. I also remember that

:22:51. > :22:57.Nelson Mandela, after 27 years jailed in Robben Island, forgave

:22:57. > :23:03.his jailers before he walked out to freedom. And it made me think this,

:23:03. > :23:13.Conference, let our party, let our movement, be shaped by our

:23:13. > :23:14.

:23:14. > :23:20.political heroes, not villains. APPLAUSE.

:23:20. > :23:24.Let's define ourselves by what we are for, not what we are against.

:23:24. > :23:31.Because our vision of how our country could and Shelby is so much

:23:31. > :23:39.richer than the narrow, negative views of Arab opponents. -- how our

:23:39. > :23:43.country could and will be. -- narrow, negative views of our

:23:43. > :23:49.opponents. Last year, we were badly beaten and

:23:49. > :23:53.we had to change, we have changed and we will continue to change. In

:23:53. > :23:58.local elections from Aberdeen to Edinburgh, Stirling to Renfrewshire

:23:58. > :24:02.and, of course, in Glasgow, the Scottish Labour Party had stunning

:24:03. > :24:08.victories. Our party is changing - changing how we do policy, changing

:24:08. > :24:11.how we communicate, changing how we select our candidates. Our new

:24:11. > :24:16.general-secretary will see through that change, and I have every

:24:16. > :24:19.confidence that together we will deliver a modern, 21st Century

:24:19. > :24:24.Party which truly represents the people of Scotland. I know we still

:24:24. > :24:27.have a long way to go but I believe we can achieve our goals for

:24:27. > :24:32.Scotland. We have breathed life into our party when many of our

:24:32. > :24:36.opponents had written us off. This year, I believe our job is to

:24:36. > :24:42.breathe life into Scottish politics. Currently, we are trapped in an

:24:42. > :24:47.argument of narrow nationalism. The SNP have chosen to use the majority

:24:47. > :24:51.not to improve Scotland but to put it on pause until the referendum.

:24:51. > :24:54.The bedroom tax, they don't see it as a opportunity to show how

:24:54. > :25:00.devolution can protect Scots from a Tory government, not a chance to

:25:00. > :25:04.help people, but instead as an opportunity to be aggrieved. I ask

:25:04. > :25:08.them to abandon that now. By pledged to work with the SNP to

:25:08. > :25:12.protect the poor and vulnerable from the injustice of the bedroom

:25:12. > :25:17.tax. We can and must protect them. Scotland can stand united against

:25:17. > :25:23.the Tory cuts, and I call upon the SNP to work with us. If they truly

:25:23. > :25:30.believe in social justice, we can work together. But sometimes I ask

:25:30. > :25:33.what is the case? Well, if you are a tax exile, the SNP will tell you

:25:33. > :25:38.they will cut tax in an independent Scotland. If you are Rupert Murdoch,

:25:38. > :25:42.come to Scotland because you will pay less. At the same time as they

:25:42. > :25:46.say Scotland will be a tax haven for the rich, they claim we will

:25:46. > :25:52.have Scandinavian levels of public spending. Scotland will be a low-

:25:52. > :26:02.tax, debt-free, high public spending country. Rupert Murdoch

:26:02. > :26:03.

:26:03. > :26:08.and Tommy Sheridan will embrace! LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE.

:26:08. > :26:16.And I shall be a size 10 with George Clooney on my arm!

:26:16. > :26:19.LAUGHTER. Even I know that doesn't add up!

:26:19. > :26:24.What the nationalists are having is not a conversation with the people

:26:24. > :26:33.of Scotland, it is an attempt to chat Scotland up. Band, let me tell

:26:33. > :26:38.you, Conference, their chat-up lines are mince! The people of

:26:38. > :26:44.Scotland are going to give them one hell of a knock back! Their story

:26:44. > :26:51.doesn't stack up. But what is our story? What is my story? I grew up

:26:51. > :26:56.in an discerning Glasgow, my family were crofters, married to the land,

:26:56. > :26:59.my father a merchant seaman, wedded to the sea. I saw in my upbringing

:26:59. > :27:03.and the beauty of our land and felt both the warmth of community and

:27:03. > :27:07.the harshness and brutality at times of trying to make a living

:27:07. > :27:12.here. I had the privilege to grow up in a family of love, but one

:27:12. > :27:17.where my family -- mother always reminded me that what we ate, what

:27:17. > :27:22.we war, where we lived was all the product of the sweat of my father's

:27:22. > :27:26.brow, earned at sea. I respected that. I grew up respecting hard

:27:26. > :27:30.work, in a world where people were valued. I saw the unfairness of a

:27:31. > :27:37.world which did not value work back. A father who retired without a

:27:37. > :27:42.pension, a father whose employer cared not for him after he left,

:27:42. > :27:47.but he was until his dying days cared for by a health service, the

:27:47. > :27:50.Labour Party's greatest creation, an expression of our collective

:27:51. > :27:55.belief that individuals deserve better. The family did not feel

:27:55. > :28:00.hard done too, did not blame others will feel entitled, but we thirsted

:28:00. > :28:05.to improve ourselves and the people we called Neighbours. As a child of

:28:05. > :28:10.Anderson and my rural upbringing, I was never the type of person who

:28:10. > :28:14.could expect a university education, but I got one, not because it was a

:28:14. > :28:18.Scottish tradition but because Labour made it a Scottish tradition,

:28:18. > :28:22.that if I worked hard enough, I could achieve. The likes of me, if

:28:22. > :28:26.we are good enough, could get there. That is the Labour tradition. We

:28:26. > :28:30.could marry that tradition to another Scottish tradition, and I

:28:30. > :28:37.could sit by my mother in a public library and study for my Highers as

:28:37. > :28:41.she studied by her daughter's site for no other advancements than her

:28:41. > :28:46.own intellectual pride. And what did I decide to do with my

:28:46. > :28:50.university education? I decided to use it to throw open the gateway to

:28:50. > :28:55.others that had been a dream for me through education. I did it in

:28:55. > :28:59.schools, where I met children as I had been, working-class, proud,

:28:59. > :29:03.eager but blighted by the joblessness of Fatah's Britain. I

:29:03. > :29:07.did it in schools where children did not have the privileges I had

:29:07. > :29:10.had in Anderson, the privilege of a mother and father who got you out

:29:10. > :29:15.of bed in the morning, the privilege of parents who knew the

:29:15. > :29:19.value of education. And I did it in schools where it was an achievement

:29:19. > :29:23.for some children simply to get over the door of the school in the

:29:23. > :29:27.morning. I did it to look into the eyes of those children, children

:29:27. > :29:31.who did not have the benefits of the working-class values instilled

:29:31. > :29:35.in them, and search foreign ember of hope, something to be breathed

:29:35. > :29:39.upon, cherished, made a flame, something we could fight against

:29:39. > :29:46.together, to burn against the dying of the light before they were even

:29:46. > :29:49.fully formed. That was my call to public service. You know, I went

:29:49. > :29:53.back to one of my old schools recently. The old building

:29:54. > :29:58.completely rebuilt by a Labour government, the dilapidated houses

:29:58. > :30:02.I looked out upon from my staffroom are now rebuilt thanks to a Labour

:30:02. > :30:08.government and a Labour council. But the fear of decay returning as

:30:08. > :30:13.the slump continues. Our national shame conference -- our national

:30:13. > :30:16.shame, Conference, is that Margaret Thatcher may begun, but their

:30:16. > :30:21.children in this country whose chances of success are as bad as

:30:21. > :30:26.those of the children I taught them. That has to change, and that is why

:30:26. > :30:30.we exist, to fight injustice. As Nelson Mandela said, education is

:30:30. > :30:35.the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world. And so,

:30:35. > :30:39.friends, were we going to the next Scottish election, we will have

:30:39. > :30:44.plans not to just changed education over one term, but a vision which

:30:44. > :30:48.will look forward 20 years. Because of our schools, colleges and

:30:48. > :30:53.universities will be the best in the world. We need that length of

:30:53. > :30:57.vision. And we will not pay for the opportunity for some while denying

:30:57. > :31:07.opportunity for others. The savaging of the college system to

:31:07. > :31:19.

:31:19. > :31:24.fund universities has been a learning at school, college or

:31:24. > :31:28.university. I want and we need a Scotland which has education open to

:31:28. > :31:33.all. I want us to return to a policy of life-long learning. That's not

:31:34. > :31:37.just a matter of social justice. It is also an economic imperative in a

:31:37. > :31:41.fast-changing world. Let others talk of an oil boom. Our greatest

:31:41. > :31:45.resource will always be our people and if we're to give people the

:31:45. > :31:55.chance to fulfil their potential, it's a second education boom that we

:31:55. > :32:00.

:32:00. > :32:04.need in Scotland. We will make Scotland a fairer, more

:32:04. > :32:08.just country. That is why we seek just country. That is why we seek

:32:08. > :32:12.power. Conference, this weekend we have published the interim report of

:32:12. > :32:16.our devolution commission. I believe it is a good piece of work. It's

:32:16. > :32:21.radical and challenging. I'm grateful to everyone who contributed

:32:21. > :32:26.to it, whether they represent Scottish Labour Party in our

:32:26. > :32:31.councils, in Europe, Hollywood, trade unions or party members. What

:32:31. > :32:36.it is, is a starting point of where we agree how devolution is to be

:32:36. > :32:44.developed. What it is not, is an attempt to appease the SNP. I am

:32:44. > :32:47.well aware that you don't appease lions by throwing more Christians at

:32:47. > :32:52.them. APPLAUSE

:32:52. > :32:55.And I will not walk an inch down the road to independence. We will have

:32:55. > :33:02.plenty of time to debate it throughout the party and we'll

:33:02. > :33:07.consult with all of Scotland on it. But let's do that within this con

:33:07. > :33:11.context: Our debate is not power for power sake. It is to ask where best

:33:11. > :33:15.should power lie it make the best of people's lives. There are two

:33:15. > :33:18.principles within that that I am determined to protect. One, is to

:33:18. > :33:22.deliver power to our people, not to institutions. The current SNP

:33:22. > :33:29.Government is one of the most centralising since Margaret

:33:29. > :33:34.Thatcher. APPLAUSE

:33:34. > :33:38.This isn't just a question of devolving power from Westminster to

:33:38. > :33:42.Holyrood, but beyond to the people best-placed to make the best of

:33:42. > :33:46.people's lives. I want to reinvigorate democracy at council

:33:46. > :33:53.level and beyond it, in our communities. The second point I make

:33:53. > :33:58.is this: Sovereignty lies with the Scottish people. We choose to be

:33:58. > :34:01.inner partnership with our neighbours and that means we should

:34:01. > :34:05.be respectful to our neighbours because it is a partnership. I do

:34:05. > :34:12.not want a settlement that reduces Scotland's inyou flens in

:34:12. > :34:20.Westminster one iota. -- influence. Let's be clear what is on average.

:34:20. > :34:25.The SNP want to allow us to separate ourselves but allow Westminster to

:34:25. > :34:30.desued what we can spend and borrow without one Scott at wells. I want

:34:30. > :34:34.Scotland to play a full part with a full Scottish representation at

:34:34. > :34:38.full Scottish representation at Westminster.

:34:38. > :34:43.Westminster. APPLAUSE

:34:43. > :34:48.that is what is in Scotland's interests and that is why we are the

:34:48. > :34:50.party of Scotland. The SNP say we are on a home rule journey. Pity

:34:50. > :34:59.they didn't join us when we started they didn't join us when we started

:35:00. > :35:03.APPLAUSE Labour created the Scottish

:35:03. > :35:07.Parliament because we believe in devolution. And we've continued to

:35:07. > :35:11.lead the debate on devolution. We have begun a dialogue with the

:35:11. > :35:16.people of Scotland about what powers the Scottish Parliament should have.

:35:16. > :35:19.But, Conference, can I tell you today what powers I really want?

:35:19. > :35:29.They are the powers that Alex They are the powers that Alex

:35:29. > :35:34.Salmond already has. APPLAUSE

:35:34. > :35:38.The power over Scotland's education. The power over Scotland's health

:35:38. > :35:42.service. That way we shape the schools that will give every child

:35:42. > :35:46.an opportunity to reach their potential. That way, we support the

:35:46. > :35:50.colleges that will give people a chance to learn the skills needed to

:35:50. > :35:54.get a decent job. That way, we will build the universities that will

:35:54. > :35:59.pass on the knowledge to the people who will drive our economy in the

:35:59. > :36:02.future and that way we will provide future and that way we will provide

:36:02. > :36:06.the care for the six and -- sick and elderly that they need and deserve

:36:06. > :36:10.and that way, we can empower our children to make healthier choices.

:36:10. > :36:15.We know it is not the union that prevoents us from achieving our

:36:15. > :36:20.ambitions for Scotland. -- prevents us. So why do we have to wait until

:36:20. > :36:25.after a referendum to get on with realising them? The man Alex Salmond

:36:25. > :36:29.put in charge of our schools, Mike Russel, said in a speech that he

:36:29. > :36:33.wants to bring about a chak in education that will transform

:36:33. > :36:38.schools. -- change. But, he said, he can only do it after independence.

:36:38. > :36:45.Well, if he can not bring about that change now, my message to him is to

:36:45. > :36:55.move over and let someone else who can, get on with the job.

:36:55. > :37:01.

:37:01. > :37:04.Because, in the Labour Party, we know how to get on with the job.

:37:04. > :37:11.Labour in Government had a childcare strategy within months of coming

:37:11. > :37:15.into office. We introduced child tax credits to supplement child benefit,

:37:15. > :37:19.and introduced paternity and extended maternity leave. We lifted

:37:19. > :37:24.hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty. We don't need the

:37:24. > :37:28.Council of Economic Advisors to tell us what a difference investing in

:37:28. > :37:32.education and childcare can make. I know, only too well as a teacher and

:37:32. > :37:38.a mother. A few weeks ago Alex Salmond stood on his Conference

:37:38. > :37:44.platform and promised a childcare revolution. Yet, he made the same

:37:44. > :37:49.promise of 600 hours care for three and four-year-olds as he had made in

:37:49. > :37:54.2007. Six years on and families are still waiting. Only 1% of

:37:54. > :37:58.two-year-olds will be guaranteed early learning and care. We are

:37:58. > :38:02.massively behind the rest of the UK, never mind other countries in the

:38:02. > :38:06.world. Families of pre-schoolchildren need help and

:38:06. > :38:11.action now. Families of primary school-aged children need help with

:38:11. > :38:15.out of school care and wrap-around care. Is Alex Salmond concerned

:38:15. > :38:20.about the families who pay more for childcare than they do a mortgage?

:38:20. > :38:26.Or was it a cynical attempt to persuade the women who oppose him to

:38:26. > :38:36.change their minds, when what we want to do is change women's lives?

:38:36. > :38:41.APPLAUSE Conference, you can make up your own

:38:41. > :38:44.mind, but this time, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

:38:45. > :38:49.If he is serious about supporting the families who are struggling with

:38:49. > :38:53.childcare costs, then let's make it happen now. And I challenge Alex

:38:53. > :38:57.Salmond to meet me next week and to bring his budget. I will work with

:38:57. > :39:02.him to ensure we can deliver the childcare that a modern family

:39:02. > :39:06.needs. We have worked up proposals. I'm sure he has, too. We can agree

:39:06. > :39:09.what our priorities should be and how we are going to deliver it

:39:09. > :39:16.within his budget. within his budget.

:39:16. > :39:21.APPLAUSE I came into politics to ensure

:39:21. > :39:24.people could achieve their full potential. That is why I joined the

:39:24. > :39:26.Labour Party. Changing people's lives for the better is what we are

:39:26. > :39:31.in the business of. We will work with anyone who shares our values

:39:31. > :39:35.and who wants it make a positive difference to people's lives -- to

:39:35. > :39:38.make. Because what is exciting Conference, is that we can support

:39:38. > :39:44.people to change our lives and people can change their own when

:39:44. > :39:49.they are empowered to do so. Last year I sue community ownership first

:39:49. > :39:52.hand when I was at an estate trust on the Isle of Lewis. You would be

:39:52. > :39:58.surprised and impressed about what the community organisations there

:39:58. > :40:01.are delivering much house-building. Developing renewables, investing in

:40:01. > :40:06.population decline and reinvigorating their area. Community

:40:07. > :40:09.assets is a powerful vehicle to tackle not just social injustice and

:40:09. > :40:13.inequality but it also delivers economic growth. It gives power to

:40:13. > :40:18.the people and allows them to transform their communities. It was

:40:18. > :40:21.a Labour executive that brought in the land reform act. It has allowed

:40:21. > :40:26.remarkable progress to be made in the number of communities that now

:40:26. > :40:30.own their land. But despite that, Scotland's landownership patterns

:40:30. > :40:35.are significantly out of line with what is the norm in much of Europe

:40:35. > :40:40.and much of the world. Just 16 owners have #10e % of Scotland's

:40:40. > :40:45.land and get tax breaks for doing so. -- 10%. I have to say that land

:40:45. > :40:51.reform has stalled under the SNP. If we want to have any real hope in

:40:51. > :40:55.changing the current land own hership in Scotland we have to be

:40:55. > :40:59.bold and radical. -- ownership Scotland, we'll extend

:40:59. > :41:03.rights for community purchase of land and for those rights strike

:41:03. > :41:07.across Scotland. If if it is in the public interest, communities will

:41:07. > :41:17.have the right to purchase land, even if the landowner is not a

:41:17. > :41:27.

:41:27. > :41:31.willing seller. Now that is a power worth devolving.

:41:31. > :41:35.Times maybe hard but we can still make change. Last year I started a

:41:35. > :41:40.debate on what our choices should be on a time when money is tight.

:41:40. > :41:44.People ask why I made that speech in September. I will tell you why.

:41:44. > :41:48.Because we know, what every family in the country knows, that times are

:41:48. > :41:52.hard. Until there is economic recovery there are choices to be

:41:52. > :41:56.made. We know, but the SNP admit only in private that the finances

:41:56. > :41:59.are power and with an ageing population the demands on those

:41:59. > :42:03.finances will increase. I believe we need to be honest about the

:42:03. > :42:09.challenges we face because only by being honest can we be true to the

:42:09. > :42:11.values we all hold. I was told at the time, by some, that I was right,

:42:11. > :42:16.the time, by some, that I was right, but that it was bad politics. Well,

:42:16. > :42:20.I think that to wait until the day after the referendum to tell the

:42:20. > :42:30.truth about where we are is rotten politics.

:42:30. > :42:35.APPLAUSE I believe the only sort of politics

:42:35. > :42:40.which is good politics is honest politics and my ambition is to marry

:42:40. > :42:42.the debate we have in the Scottish Parliament, in the TV studios and in

:42:43. > :42:48.the newspapers, with the lived reality of the people we represent.

:42:48. > :42:51.When I called for an honest debate about spending priorities, many

:42:51. > :42:56.criticised me and misrepresented my motives. Conference, let me tell you

:42:56. > :43:02.why I said what I said. A few weeks before I spoke, I met with a group

:43:02. > :43:07.of care workers who told me about their experiences of the job. Good

:43:07. > :43:10.people, who work hard at a difficult job for little reward. They

:43:10. > :43:13.explained how they were asked to task and go. That they were

:43:13. > :43:17.instructed not to speak with the people they cared for because they

:43:17. > :43:22.had to be in and out in 15 minutes. They told me how difficult they

:43:22. > :43:26.found that process, because it goes against their instincts to care and

:43:26. > :43:31.help. I was convinced that the truth about their working lives and the

:43:31. > :43:36.lives of those they cared for was not something that could be finessed

:43:36. > :43:41.or ignored. We could not pretend that this system was working. It

:43:41. > :43:46.made me realise it is simply obscene for politicians to celebrate

:43:46. > :43:50.policies which bear no relation to what is happening on the ground. It

:43:50. > :43:55.is time politicians were honest with the public about hard choices. We

:43:55. > :44:02.can't afford a cartoon debate when older people are being tucked up in

:44:02. > :44:12.bed by 6.00pm because it fits in a career's precious schedule because

:44:12. > :44:18.

:44:18. > :44:22.You know, the SNP claimed I was attacking the principle of

:44:22. > :44:30.universial benefits, which I was not. What I was asking was the

:44:30. > :44:35.central question for anyone who believes in social justice. How do

:44:35. > :44:42.you deal with social Jews disin a time of scarcity not of plenty. --

:44:42. > :44:49.social justice. They revealed two truths. We in Labour start with the

:44:49. > :44:53.beliefs of the people. We see what how we can deliver the needs and

:44:53. > :44:59.commune Kate it to them. The SNP start with the slogan. The slogan is

:44:59. > :45:03.part of the policy and people's needs come last. That is why in this

:45:03. > :45:11.country Alex Salmond says we have free personal care, but in truth we

:45:11. > :45:14.have vulnerable and elderly people getting 15 minute visits by careers

:45:14. > :45:19.who are instructed not to talk to them because a conversation would

:45:19. > :45:26.take up too much time. Fro personal take up too much time. Fro personal

:45:26. > :45:31.care! -- free personal careful. Free personal care, says Salmond, but a

:45:31. > :45:37.career is told not to say anything to a pensioner in need. He has the

:45:37. > :45:40.slogan but people are suffering. Let me talk about one of the great

:45:40. > :45:43.achievements of the Labour Government. The bus pass is a great

:45:43. > :45:53.thing but it doesn't really work if there isn't a bus to get on. That's

:45:53. > :45:59.

:45:59. > :46:03.there isn't a bus to get on. That's Around the country, services cut,

:46:03. > :46:09.routes going. In part of my constituency, this week we were

:46:09. > :46:13.told there would be no buses in one area after 6pm. That is why I want

:46:13. > :46:18.to debate about our nation's priorities. As my Bevan said, the

:46:18. > :46:23.language of priorities is the religion of socialism. One trade

:46:23. > :46:27.unionist said that contentious issues such as the continuation of

:46:27. > :46:32.universal entitlement must be continued to and conducted

:46:32. > :46:39.transparently, rather than in the current polarised terms. That is

:46:39. > :46:43.why I asked a finance experts to conduct an evidence-based reduce --

:46:43. > :46:47.and evidence-based view of what we can afford as a nation. But when I

:46:47. > :46:53.was asked -- when I asked for the debate I was publicly derided by

:46:53. > :46:56.the SNP. John Swinney says there is a crisis in public spending - in

:46:56. > :47:00.private, at least. The Scottish cabinet will talk amongst

:47:00. > :47:06.themselves about the spending crisis we are facing, while denying

:47:06. > :47:10.it in public. John Swinney even questions the affordability of a

:47:10. > :47:20.state pension in a separate Scotland. Let me tell him, Labour

:47:20. > :47:26.

:47:26. > :47:30.is keeping the pension he thinks we And I make this pledge to the

:47:30. > :47:34.people of Scotland, I will be straight with you about what we can

:47:34. > :47:38.and cannot do. We won't say one thing in private and then tell the

:47:38. > :47:42.public something we know to be untrue, because we know the reality

:47:42. > :47:48.of people's lives, and they deserve the truth. The biggest issue for

:47:48. > :47:52.people right now is the economy. People are hurting, unemployment is

:47:52. > :47:58.unacceptably high, growth is too slow. Many of those lucky enough to

:47:58. > :48:01.stay in a job are forced to accept reduced hours. Many finding a job

:48:02. > :48:07.for a first time are accepting temporary contracts. For too many,

:48:07. > :48:11.wages are falling and prices rising. This is the real world, and it

:48:11. > :48:15.needs to change. We need an economy that works for the many, not the

:48:15. > :48:21.few. We need an economy that equips us to compete with the emerging

:48:21. > :48:26.powers of China and India. We need any economy fit for the 21st

:48:26. > :48:29.century, and we won't be able to do that with a low-skill, low-wage

:48:29. > :48:39.economy. Participating in a race to the bottom will mean finishing

:48:39. > :48:42.

:48:42. > :48:45.bottom of the race. APPLAUSE this, of course, is not

:48:45. > :48:50.the view of the Conservatives of the SM -- or the SNP.

:48:50. > :48:53.They are wedded to the policies of the past and oblivious to reality.

:48:53. > :48:57.The Conservatives are still committed to rewarding those at the

:48:57. > :49:02.top while the majority are left to feel the pain. This month, people

:49:02. > :49:08.earning over �1 million a year received an average tax cut of

:49:08. > :49:12.�100,000, a policy four millionaires -- a policy for

:49:12. > :49:16.millionaires, signed off by a cabinet of millionaires. Alex

:49:16. > :49:20.Salmond favours a low tax and lightly regulated economy. Remember,

:49:20. > :49:25.he spoke of the need for lighter touch regulation of financial

:49:25. > :49:30.services just before the crash? He needs that the way to attract

:49:30. > :49:36.global investors to Scotland is his ultra-low Corporation Tax. This is

:49:36. > :49:42.extreme short-termism. The economy needs to be built on strong

:49:42. > :49:45.foundations. When making long-term investment decisions, we want a

:49:45. > :49:50.skilled and educated workforce, skills at all levels, not just

:49:50. > :49:55.graduates, investment in basic and intermediate skills, areas where we

:49:55. > :50:00.compare badly with our major competitors and a major reason for

:50:00. > :50:05.our low levels of productivity. This is why the SNP cut of 120,000

:50:05. > :50:10.college places is not only unjust, it undermines our long-term

:50:10. > :50:14.economic potential. David Cameron and Alex Salmond don't realise that

:50:14. > :50:18.the era of trickle-down economics is at an end. We need any economy

:50:18. > :50:23.that works for people, not against them, an economy built from the

:50:23. > :50:29.middle out, not from the top down. The key factor in economic growth

:50:29. > :50:33.is the strength and size of the middle. Inequality encumbers growth.

:50:33. > :50:37.Ken McIntosh and Catherine Jamieson are working hard in developing a

:50:37. > :50:40.Scottish Labour alternative economic strategy. It will much as

:50:40. > :50:43.before one parliamentary term, they will focus on how we can build an

:50:44. > :50:48.economy which meets long-term challenges. They will be examining

:50:48. > :50:55.how we can build an economy from the middle, our approach to

:50:55. > :51:00.taxation, meeting the productivity challenge, strengthening exports

:51:00. > :51:04.and building economics services. Labour's enduring causes to help

:51:04. > :51:09.and protect the vulnerable, to make sure the old, the sick and the poor

:51:09. > :51:14.have serenity and dignity in their lives. Our mission is to write the

:51:14. > :51:18.social arithmetic, to give a voice to the voiceless, hope to those who

:51:18. > :51:28.feel hope is wrong -- gone, to give security to the insecure. We will

:51:28. > :51:29.

:51:29. > :51:34.never walk past on the other side. APPLAUSE.

:51:34. > :51:38.And, Conference, there is no greater cause than child poverty.

:51:38. > :51:43.Its existence diminishes us all. A child is not to blame for the

:51:43. > :51:48.circumstances into which they are born. As a society, we have a moral

:51:48. > :51:52.obligation to ensure that every child can fulfil their potential.

:51:52. > :51:57.Progress in reducing child poverty in Scotland has stalled under the

:51:57. > :52:05.SMP. Today as I speak, 27 out of 32 local authorities have council

:52:05. > :52:08.wards where over 20% of children living policy for -- poverty. The

:52:08. > :52:13.spectre of child poverty looms for the first time since the early

:52:13. > :52:18.1990s. This should be treated as a national emergency, but it is not.

:52:18. > :52:23.The SNP instead choose to ignore reality. Three weeks ago, Alex

:52:23. > :52:30.Salmond delivered a speech in which she referred to Iraq 10 times.

:52:30. > :52:35.Independent, 25 times. But the word poverty was never spoken. The

:52:35. > :52:42.difference between him and me is very clear. He entered politics to

:52:42. > :52:52.re-erect borders, I came into politics to tear down barriers.

:52:52. > :53:02.

:53:02. > :53:06.We know Alex Salmond is no friend of the poor. Under Labour,

:53:06. > :53:12.substantial progress was made in reducing shell property and we are

:53:12. > :53:16.rightly proud of this, but we must now meet the challenges of today --

:53:16. > :53:20.in reducing child poverty. We want to ensure that social justice is

:53:20. > :53:25.woven into the fabric of everything we do. The challenge paper

:53:25. > :53:29.published today set out our policies, and offers many answers

:53:29. > :53:34.that the SNP choose to ignore. I did not come into politics to

:53:34. > :53:43.debate the constitution, I came into politics to end poverty.

:53:43. > :53:48.APPLAUSE. Today, though, we find a Scotland

:53:48. > :53:52.suffering from the Tories' failed economic plan, and an SNP

:53:52. > :53:57.administration who could not care less about protecting Scotland from

:53:57. > :54:02.it. An SNP administration happy to spend thousands of pounds

:54:02. > :54:07.commemorating historic battles and cutting college places. And in that

:54:07. > :54:12.you can see why they don't get what is great about Scottish history.

:54:12. > :54:22.Our greatest moments were and when we out-thought our neighbours, it

:54:22. > :54:28.

:54:28. > :54:32.Our enemy is poverty, with all the evils that brings. Alex Salmond

:54:32. > :54:38.would have you believe that the enemy is our neighbours. He wants

:54:38. > :54:43.to have a debate with David Cameron, but he won't abate me. That is why

:54:43. > :54:50.-- because he wants to deceive people into thinking this is a

:54:50. > :54:55.question of Scotland versus England. It is not. The fight is Scotland

:54:55. > :55:05.versus summoned, in cities one that Scotland is going to win. --

:55:05. > :55:20.

:55:20. > :55:25.Scotland versus Alex Salmond. And I make this solemn promise to

:55:25. > :55:29.you, I will do everything in my power to restore honesty to

:55:29. > :55:34.politics. We in this party, this movement, will fight for this

:55:34. > :55:38.country we love. Let me tell you what my job is about. It's about

:55:38. > :55:43.making sure this party response to the needs of Scotland, about

:55:44. > :55:48.fighting privilege and inequality whenever we find it, about fighting

:55:48. > :55:54.poverty and opening up opportunity for all. It is about creating a

:55:54. > :56:03.fairer, better, more prosperous Scotland. It is about leading

:56:03. > :56:13.Scotland and that, Conference, is a job by a minded to do. Thank you.

:56:13. > :56:15.-- it is a job I am minded to do. A standing ovation there. The

:56:15. > :56:21.Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont began with a critique of

:56:21. > :56:25.Margaret Thatcher. She mentioned the SNP a lot, saying they have put

:56:25. > :56:30.Scotland on pause until the referendum. She's at the savage

:56:30. > :56:36.cuts in the colleges have been a disgrace, she tried to defend her

:56:36. > :56:40.something for nothing speech and said but she was trying to restore

:56:40. > :56:44.honesty to politics. I am joined in the studio by a process that --

:56:44. > :56:49.Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde universities. Watching

:56:49. > :56:53.Johann Lamont, what was your reaction? The speech was a speech

:56:53. > :57:00.in which Johann Lamont exhibited a willingness to tackle her demons.

:57:00. > :57:03.There were two in particular she was dealing with, one was this row

:57:03. > :57:08.over the last couple of days about this interim paper are more

:57:08. > :57:12.devolution for Scotland. In a sense she said, look, I am behind this.

:57:12. > :57:17.But in so doing she was very careful to try to appease the

:57:17. > :57:21.critics in her party. So claiming, although I think many commentators

:57:21. > :57:25.would question it, that she was not trying to imitate the SNP, not

:57:25. > :57:30.trying to do this because of the threat of independence, but giving

:57:30. > :57:34.has very firm commitment that she didn't want Scotland's

:57:34. > :57:40.representation at Westminster to be cut, that was a very clear image --

:57:40. > :57:44.message. It was interesting when she went on to sell why her party

:57:44. > :57:48.is keen on devolution, she seemed much keener to sell the ability of

:57:48. > :57:52.the party to use the existing powers of the Scottish Parliament -

:57:52. > :57:58.of education, health and social care - they are wanting to talk

:57:58. > :58:02.about what they might want to do if Holyrood had control of taxation.

:58:02. > :58:07.The second demon which she mentioned and dealt with was the

:58:07. > :58:11.controversial speech last September up in which she raised questions

:58:11. > :58:16.about the current policy, and she tried to explain a bit more about

:58:16. > :58:21.it, in particular that it was not her opinion that it was good to

:58:21. > :58:25.have a universal service of the quality is not very good. That said,

:58:25. > :58:30.she did not take us any further in giving us an indication of what the

:58:30. > :58:36.Labour Party might end up doing all wanting to say by 2016 about how to

:58:36. > :58:39.reshape public service in Scotland. She criticised the funding cuts for

:58:39. > :58:44.further education colleges and said they had lost out to universities,

:58:44. > :58:49.but there was no indication that universities might be selling

:58:49. > :58:54.something that some people should have to pay for. Brian Taylor is in

:58:54. > :58:59.Inverness. Interesting what John was saying, Johann Lamont trying to

:58:59. > :59:03.fight those demons. I suppose in some way she had a lot of

:59:03. > :59:09.explaining to do. She did, to some extent. I thought it was a very

:59:09. > :59:14.good speech, very personal. She is up against a very charismatic

:59:14. > :59:20.leader in Alex Salmond, the head of the SNP, so she was trying to set

:59:20. > :59:27.out her own personal background and very personal motivations for her

:59:27. > :59:32.political decisions. I take John's point, there was a lot of counter

:59:32. > :59:35.thoughts about what she is against, she was concerned about the nature

:59:35. > :59:40.of care and the provision of education, she did not really

:59:40. > :59:47.provide details. But as John also notes, 2016 would be the manifesto

:59:47. > :59:52.during which those would be detailed. I thought the staging was

:59:52. > :59:57.intriguing. If you look at the large stage behind her, a great,

:59:57. > :00:02.huge salt air behind Johann Lamont, obviously trying to reclaim the

:00:02. > :00:08.patriotic position from the SMP. On that quite remarkable phrase at the

:00:08. > :00:14.close, it was not Scotland versus England in the constitution debate,

:00:14. > :00:18.rather, it was not Alex Salmond verses England, it was Alex Salmond

:00:18. > :00:21.versus Scotland. One understands why she makes that point, but I

:00:21. > :00:26.think Alex Salmond might be having a bit of a wry smile when you

:00:26. > :00:30.consider you won an overall majority in the 2011 Election

:00:30. > :00:35.amongst the people of Scotland in a voting system designed to prevent

:00:35. > :00:43.his party from doing that. delegates are filing out, and I

:00:43. > :00:46.gather you wish to -- was speaking to Margaret Curran earlier? Yes, I

:00:46. > :00:49.spoke to her raising some of the issues which arose in the speech,

:00:49. > :00:59.and raising with her the ideas and thinking that she had on the

:00:59. > :01:04.

:01:04. > :01:07.is important that we look to the future. Unemployment is a huge

:01:07. > :01:12.problem. We have deep problems for long-term unemployment. Scottish

:01:12. > :01:16.Labour need to offer a vision for the future. I'm very pleased that

:01:16. > :01:24.John McFall, who did so much during the banking crisis and helped

:01:24. > :01:32.challenge that, is helping to chair that taskforce, joined by an

:01:32. > :01:37.entrepreneur in Mrs Rainey who is a very steely businesswoman. They are

:01:37. > :01:40.both working at us to look at were spects for the future to create new

:01:40. > :01:43.opportunities for employment. -- prospects. But we had the figures

:01:43. > :01:46.showing that the position in Scotland is better than the rest of

:01:46. > :01:49.the UK on unemployment and employment. Don't you give the

:01:49. > :01:55.Scottish Government, the SNP Scottish Government some credit for

:01:55. > :01:58.that? No, I don't because the marginal difference is from time to

:01:58. > :02:03.time, depending on when different figures come out. Whatever those

:02:03. > :02:07.figures r there is a deep problem with unemployment in Scotland,

:02:07. > :02:11.particularly long-term unemployment. But nevertheless. They are making it

:02:11. > :02:15.better. The point I'm trying to make, is get out of talking about

:02:15. > :02:19.the day-to-day political debate. We need to look to the future, look to

:02:19. > :02:21.the new industries and opportunities. We need to change the

:02:21. > :02:25.Scottish economy. The Scottish Government say they are doing that.

:02:25. > :02:29.I don't think they are doing enough and as a country we need to think

:02:29. > :02:32.much more deeply about where the new opportunities are coming from which

:02:32. > :02:36.is why I have high-profile and thoughtful people doing this work

:02:36. > :02:46.for us. Labour wants it offer a new vision for the country, as we move

:02:46. > :02:47.

:02:47. > :02:53.forward to the rev rechlt -- wants to offer. It is a big decision and

:02:53. > :02:56.big debate. I'm in the complacent but we need to look ahead. What

:02:57. > :03:01.Scotland will we have? Let's create new jobs and look to the new

:03:01. > :03:05.industries but we need to do that now. You say you are not complacent

:03:05. > :03:08.but are some in the party almost grudging about the existence of a

:03:08. > :03:12.rev rechlt it is not the fight they want to have. You hear them saying -

:03:12. > :03:18.this is not our issue we want to talk about social justice and

:03:18. > :03:22.unmroichlt well, tough t you lost, there is going to be a rev rechlt --

:03:22. > :03:25.-- and unemployment, well, tough, you lost. I think I have come to

:03:25. > :03:29.terms with that. We lost the election, we are having a referendum

:03:29. > :03:33.and now I'm quite excited about it. Let's have that debate with the

:03:33. > :03:37.people of Scotland. It is a huge opportunity for people like myself

:03:37. > :03:42.to put our plans to them to talk about the kind of Scotland we want

:03:42. > :03:46.to have. I think passionate and and believe Scotland is the best place

:03:46. > :03:51.when we work with our fronds and neighbours across the UK to put the

:03:51. > :03:54.case we want. -- friends. I think the grudge has passed and now we

:03:54. > :03:59.embrace the opportunities it presents. Is the grudge passed? You

:03:59. > :04:04.have a behind the scenes battle. That's perhaps overstating t a

:04:04. > :04:09.behind the scenes squabble at this Conference about the document that

:04:09. > :04:12.dare not speak its name. The commissioned report you don't debate

:04:12. > :04:16.on the floor of the Conference. You had MPs saying they weren't

:04:16. > :04:20.consulted and union leaders saying the first they heard about it was

:04:20. > :04:23.when they saw it in the papers. cannot win. Nonetheless, this is an

:04:23. > :04:27.interim report which is the start of a debate which is maybe why some

:04:27. > :04:30.people feel they have not heard it before. Should you have consulted

:04:31. > :04:35.more widely with your MP colleagues? This is the start. This is the start

:04:35. > :04:38.of what we are doing. It is an interim report. Do you accept it was

:04:38. > :04:42.badly-handled? I don't think people realised it was an interim report if

:04:42. > :04:45.I was being honest but many now feel reassured we have made that clear.

:04:45. > :04:49.It is an interim report. There is a real opportunity for people to

:04:49. > :04:54.participate. There will be different views, I ak knowledge that. Actually

:04:54. > :04:59.I would encourage different views. -- I acknowledge that. You have got

:04:59. > :05:05.them The core is what is in the best interests of the Scottish people.

:05:05. > :05:10.You have to link tax to what you spend. To how it helps grow your

:05:10. > :05:13.economy and becomes a political debate. That's what we will do.

:05:13. > :05:16.are the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland. Are you personally

:05:16. > :05:22.supportive of devolving income tax to the Scottish Government? I want

:05:22. > :05:25.to look at the arguments my test will be what works best for the

:05:25. > :05:30.Scottish people. The report said there was a strong case and if the

:05:30. > :05:32.commission was minded, you were a prominent member of that, are you

:05:32. > :05:37.minded to devolve income tax for Scotland? There is a case for it and

:05:37. > :05:40.I want to assess the case. What is the downside? Can we link it to

:05:40. > :05:44.proper spending in Scotland? Can we make sure it grows the economy? How

:05:44. > :05:48.does it link to the rest of the UK? We have a very integrated economy.

:05:48. > :05:54.Those are the kind of tests we need to look at and we need to have those

:05:54. > :05:59.debates. Why rule out other, it is a like corporation tax and North Sea

:05:59. > :06:02.oil revenues? We don't want a race to the bottom. You don't want

:06:02. > :06:06.competition. Another phrase for race to the bottom is competition. No,

:06:06. > :06:16.you create a frame where the only direction is bottom. That's the

:06:16. > :06:18.

:06:18. > :06:23.problem. Sometimes that doesn't , depending on what you create. Labour

:06:23. > :06:26.have created a fair tax system where you put in and you get out. But it

:06:26. > :06:30.has to be fair and effective. We know this is a big decision, it

:06:30. > :06:34.needs a lot of thought. It is not a done deal. We have have those tests

:06:34. > :06:38.and debates going ahead in the future. And one thing that your MP

:06:38. > :06:42.colleagues at Westminster, the Scots MP colleagues are concerned about,

:06:42. > :06:48.is that if too many tax powers are shifted to Scotland, there is

:06:48. > :06:52.perhaps an argument that the remit is less at Westminster and fewer MPs

:06:52. > :06:57.from Scotland at Westminster. They are worried about that. I don't

:06:57. > :07:01.think they have terrible cause. We have clear that there is a knead for

:07:01. > :07:05.strong Scottish representation at Westminster as I will make very

:07:05. > :07:08.clear. There are big issues such as welfare and macroeconomic issues

:07:08. > :07:12.that need strong, effective representation. And we believe in

:07:12. > :07:16.the partnership of Britain. We know that we need strong representation

:07:16. > :07:21.at Westminster. Let's turn to that question of welfare, an issue to the

:07:21. > :07:29.foreat this conference, the underoccupancy surplus or subsidy,

:07:29. > :07:32.otherwise known as the bedroom tax. -- an issue to the fore.

:07:32. > :07:36.Would Labour scrap it? One of the points in my speech today is the

:07:36. > :07:39.bedroom tax is one of many changes coming through the welfare system.

:07:39. > :07:43.There are many problems coming down the line, real challenges. In

:07:43. > :07:48.particular I would draw your attention to what is going to happen

:07:48. > :07:52.to disabled people. The Universial Credit policy, the flagship policy

:07:52. > :07:55.of this Government is in deep trouble. It is chaotic in

:07:55. > :07:59.implementation. Independent commentators are questioning its

:07:59. > :08:03.survival, it has been so badly implemented. Labour will come

:08:03. > :08:06.forward with an alternative to this Government's programme on welfare.

:08:06. > :08:11.I'm in the hearing an answer there. I'm in the hearing you promise you

:08:11. > :08:15.will scrap the bedroom tax. What we are saying to you, Brian, is the

:08:15. > :08:19.bedroom tax needs to fit into the context of the other welfare changes

:08:19. > :08:26.this Government is implementing. I'm dopely worried about the Universial

:08:26. > :08:30.Credit system, I think it could fall over. -- deeply worried. You will

:08:30. > :08:34.know we are doing very new and interesting thinking around the

:08:34. > :08:38.contributory principle. We will do that, when we are ready to produce

:08:38. > :08:42.that policy. I'm still not hearing an answer. A previous Labour

:08:42. > :08:46.opposition would, for example - another charge which had two names,

:08:46. > :08:50.the community charge, AKA poll tax, you would have said, it is wrong,

:08:50. > :08:54.hateful, it'll G you are saying of the bedroom too, it is wrong,

:08:54. > :08:59.hateful, you are not saying it would go. -- bedroom tax. That's bus it is

:08:59. > :09:02.part of a broader Universial Credit. We need to look at the impact on the

:09:02. > :09:08.Universial Credit and how that would be implemented. There might be some

:09:08. > :09:11.form of challenge. We would not have introduced the bedroom tax. But we

:09:11. > :09:14.want to be honest with the British people. We will produce an

:09:14. > :09:17.alternative to the entire Tory Government's welfare system I have

:09:17. > :09:23.to say, I think that's better for some people campaigning on one

:09:23. > :09:29.element of it, making no commitments on the rest of it that are so

:09:29. > :09:34.pernicious. Hang on a sevenlingted Labour has made a huge issue. --

:09:34. > :09:38.Labour has made a huge issue. -- hang on a minute. Ed Miliband made

:09:38. > :09:42.an issue in his speech, yet you are still not saying you would scrap T

:09:42. > :09:47.I'm clear, the Government's entire welfare programme, of which the

:09:47. > :09:51.bedroom tax is part, is in trouble. It is deeply pernicious in terms of

:09:51. > :09:57.what it is going to do to disabled people. We'll not isolate one and

:09:57. > :10:00.say that's the only one we will look at. We'll come forward with a

:10:00. > :10:04.comprehensible alternative. I think that's a much better deal rather

:10:04. > :10:08.than looking at one campaign. We need a genuine alternative. Welfare

:10:08. > :10:11.really matters for people. Not only for those who receive it but also

:10:11. > :10:15.for those who contribute to it. We need to be honest with the Scottish

:10:15. > :10:18.and British people and say - when we meet your questions about welfare,

:10:18. > :10:22.on whichever side of the debate you are on, we will give you a

:10:22. > :10:27.comprehensive answer, not the answer on one political aspect of it.

:10:27. > :10:33.you very much. Shadow Scottish Secretary, Margaret

:10:33. > :10:38.Cower A we shall cross back to Inverness. -- par great Curran.

:10:38. > :10:42.-- Margaret. We're joined now by Johann Lamont.

:10:42. > :10:48.During the speech you spent a great deal attacking the SNP, one of the

:10:48. > :10:52.things you picked them up on was the so-called American way of public

:10:52. > :10:56.services, low American tax rates, high Scandinavian public services,

:10:56. > :11:00.but was it not Tony Blair who started this by cutting taxes and

:11:00. > :11:03.improving services funded by improving services funded by

:11:03. > :11:06.unsustainable borrowing? Look, what I was clear about is we need to have

:11:06. > :11:09.honesty in politics. We need to learn the lessons of what happened

:11:09. > :11:13.in a financial crisis and now we need to make sure we address those

:11:13. > :11:17.problems and the point I was making about the SNP is they have have

:11:17. > :11:21.power right now to make a difference. To make a difference to

:11:21. > :11:25.people's lives and they are not doing that. They are having a debate

:11:25. > :11:29.instead about the constitution in some wonderful world after

:11:29. > :11:33.independence rather than addressing the issues now. I want us to talk

:11:33. > :11:37.about unemployment, care for the elderly and childcare and I'm made

:11:37. > :11:40.an offer to Alex Salmond to sit down to see if we can agree to playing

:11:41. > :11:45.that difference. Education was also -- make that difference. Education

:11:45. > :11:47.was also a key point. You said in your speech you had benefited for a

:11:47. > :11:51.free education at university which is what the Scottish Government

:11:51. > :11:57.provide at the moment for Scottish students. Are you in favour of

:11:57. > :12:00.bringing back tuition fees? Is that the nearest we got to a policy

:12:00. > :12:05.announcement as Nicola Sturgeon has said? Well, what I said was I

:12:05. > :12:11.benefited from an education. I got to university, very many of my

:12:11. > :12:15.contempries are not awe we are in a different place now. Contemp yaries.

:12:15. > :12:19.Every level of education matters. You don't invest in one at the

:12:19. > :12:23.expense of the other which the SNP have done and the challenge of

:12:23. > :12:27.children in school has to be addressed. We are currently in a

:12:27. > :12:31.position where we are spending �79 million a year funding European

:12:31. > :12:33.students to come to Scottish universities when constituents like

:12:33. > :12:37.mine, with the best of qualifications can't access a

:12:37. > :12:41.university place. We need a mature discussion about that. We need to

:12:41. > :12:45.look at why our access rates are poorer than the rest of the United

:12:45. > :12:50.Kingdom. Our drop-out rate is poorer than the rest of the United Kingdom.

:12:50. > :12:53.We know that education matters. I want an honest, mature debate, not a

:12:53. > :12:58.dividing line between myself and other political parties. That was

:12:58. > :13:02.one policy area you picked up on but you also had to explain a another

:13:02. > :13:06.couple of areas. One was the Devolution Commission which you

:13:06. > :13:11.called radical and challenging, but it has been pretty disastrous for

:13:11. > :13:14.this Conference. You have created a rod for your own back with MPs not

:13:14. > :13:17.rod for your own back with MPs not turning up and so many against it.

:13:17. > :13:21.You are obviously not here. If you were at this Conference you would

:13:21. > :13:25.know huge amounts of energy, very upbeat because we understand that we

:13:25. > :13:29.are in a place where we are changing and people again are policening to

:13:29. > :13:35.us and yes we will have a debate about devolution because we care

:13:35. > :13:38.deeply about it. -- people again are listening. This is not a platform

:13:38. > :13:41.the Scottish people to separate from the rest of the UK. The Scottish

:13:41. > :13:45.Parliament is a way you can protect people in tough times. My challenge

:13:45. > :13:51.to the SNP is to use the powers they already have to make a difference.

:13:51. > :13:54.We will, through the Deef lulings Commission and beyond -- Devolution

:13:55. > :14:00.commission. Talk to people about how we can get power in the best place.

:14:00. > :14:04.It is not about a narrow political, party political debate. It is about

:14:04. > :14:07.something far more serious. Another thing you had to explain was your

:14:07. > :14:12.something for nothing speech and you said you were not attacking the

:14:12. > :14:20.principle of universial benefits which left a few journalists in the

:14:20. > :14:24.hall looking rather confused. demanding honesty. It is not

:14:24. > :14:28.sufficient to have a slogan. You have to have a policy that's funded.

:14:28. > :14:33.I talked about the gap between the free bus pass and no bus available.

:14:33. > :14:37.The gap between the free personal care and an elderly person tucked up

:14:37. > :14:41.in bed at 6.00pm. Everybody with a family across this country, knows

:14:41. > :14:44.there is a gap between what has been said by the Scottish Parliament,

:14:44. > :14:48.Scottish Government and reality. I want to bring these two things

:14:48. > :14:52.together. Actually when I was talking about it and derided by the

:14:52. > :14:55.SNP. It turned out they were talking about it as well. The only

:14:55. > :14:58.difference was they were talking about it private because they don't

:14:58. > :15:02.believe you can trust the people of this country with that conversation.

:15:02. > :15:06.I want it out in the open and let's have a genuine debate about how to

:15:06. > :15:09.protect people in tough times. How we address child poverty and how we

:15:09. > :15:19.ensure our educational institutions ensure our educational institutions

:15:19. > :15:19.

:15:19. > :16:25.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 66 seconds

:16:25. > :16:30.The former Chancellor Alastair Darling attacked the SNP union for

:16:30. > :16:38.eight -- plan for a currency union with the rest of the UK as a

:16:39. > :16:41.straitjacket. The economic argument is the

:16:41. > :16:46.question of currency. There is a pattern emerging with the

:16:46. > :16:50.nationalists, the more you ask questions, the more you find their

:16:50. > :16:54.arguments fall apart. Look at Europe. They told us, hand on heart,

:16:54. > :16:59.they had a legal opinion which said we would automatically remain

:16:59. > :17:02.members of the European Union. What happened? When pressed, we found

:17:02. > :17:05.there was no legal opinion, Scotland had been quite

:17:05. > :17:08.deliberately deceived into believing nothing would change,

:17:08. > :17:13.where the reality is that we would have to apply again to become

:17:13. > :17:17.members of the European Union. The same thing with NATO. Critically,

:17:17. > :17:20.when they come to the question of the currency, they are being

:17:20. > :17:25.evasive and not straightforward with people. In the past 12 months

:17:25. > :17:29.alone, they have gone from being in favour of the Euro, about as

:17:29. > :17:33.popular in Inverness as it is in Essex, to using the pound like

:17:33. > :17:36.Panama uses the dollar, where you would have no central bank, which

:17:36. > :17:41.would completely undermine the financial services industry in this

:17:41. > :17:46.country, to now they say they will have a currency union. Thinking

:17:46. > :17:50.about it, the practicalities, if we have voted to leave the UK, we have

:17:50. > :17:55.left the bank that prints the currency that we currently use.

:17:55. > :17:59.Pound sterling is the currency of the United Kingdom. It is not a

:17:59. > :18:03.currency union at the moment. In order to keep the pound, the

:18:03. > :18:07.Nationalists say we would have to enter into a currency union.

:18:07. > :18:11.Yesterday, Nicola Sturgeon said that, of course, with a currency

:18:11. > :18:16.union, we could do what we want it with no constraints, spend money on

:18:16. > :18:20.anything you want. That is utter nonsense. You don't need to imagine

:18:20. > :18:24.what would happen. Look at what has been going on in the eurozone for

:18:24. > :18:28.the last four or five years. In a currency union it is the larger

:18:28. > :18:32.economies that call the shots. We also know that a currency union

:18:33. > :18:37.would mean that another country, what would then be a fine country,

:18:37. > :18:44.would have to approve our budget, tax, spending and borrowing. That

:18:44. > :18:47.is not freedom, if you vote for independence you are boating into a

:18:47. > :18:57.straitjacket from which you can never escape, and the consequences

:18:57. > :19:00.

:19:00. > :19:03.would be very bad for Scotland. pause. -- APPLAUSE. When we start

:19:03. > :19:08.facing the challenges of the rising ageing population in Scotland, if

:19:08. > :19:13.there was a drop in oil prices or another banking crisis some time in

:19:13. > :19:18.the future, you are on your own. The burden, far from being shared

:19:18. > :19:22.across the UK, for some 6 million people living in Scotland. Where is

:19:22. > :19:27.the sense in that? We are better and stronger together. Some

:19:27. > :19:30.nationalists have twigged this. Some of their supporters and

:19:30. > :19:35.academics now realise the blind alley we are going down and they

:19:35. > :19:39.are saying, let's have our own separate Scottish currency. Every

:19:39. > :19:42.time you visit somebody south of the border, you'd have to change

:19:42. > :19:47.your currency. Every time your granny, encore auntie came appear

:19:47. > :19:51.they would have to get currency to visit you. Businesses trading with

:19:51. > :19:56.the rest of the UK would have to factor in the cost of the exchange

:19:56. > :20:04.rate. Launching a new currency now and are to be the most turbulent

:20:04. > :20:13.economic times in modern times, it is truly courageous, in YES

:20:13. > :20:17.MINISTER terms. -- in the Yes Minister terms. You would be

:20:17. > :20:22.gambling on oil prices, it is a ridiculous policy. It would be

:20:22. > :20:25.gambling with Scotland's future in a way that I think is totally

:20:25. > :20:33.unacceptable. Alex Salmond has said he will debate the currency with me.

:20:33. > :20:38.The reason for that is used -- is he does not have the answers. But

:20:38. > :20:43.he cannot hide for 17 months. Scotland is entitled to an answer.

:20:43. > :20:46.What currency would we use? What what the consequences be? Scotland

:20:46. > :20:51.is entitled to believe that the nationalist stance on this, as on

:20:51. > :20:56.so many other things, is incredible and is falling apart. I believe

:20:56. > :20:59.there is a much better choice for our future than separation. The

:20:59. > :21:04.last thing we need at the present time is more uncertainty and

:21:04. > :21:09.division. If we walk away from the UK, we give our children a one-way

:21:09. > :21:13.ticket to a deeply uncertain destination. That, to me, is

:21:13. > :21:16.totally unacceptable. We know there is nowhere better, but we

:21:16. > :21:21.understand there is something bigger. That is why we are better

:21:21. > :21:27.and stronger together. Thank you very much.

:21:27. > :21:31.Alastair Darling. Anas Sarwar is the Scottish party's Deputy Leader

:21:31. > :21:38.and chief co-ordinator of labour's 2014 referendum campaign. He joins

:21:38. > :21:44.me from Inverness. -- Labour's 24 to referendum campaign. Let's look

:21:44. > :21:49.at Scottish Labour's offering in the event of a "no" vote, of course.

:21:49. > :21:52.With the devolution commission, presented at this conference, the

:21:52. > :21:57.interim report, it seems like there was utter confusion about what

:21:57. > :22:02.Scottish Labour want. Only you could describe an honest

:22:02. > :22:05.and frank debate amongst colleagues as confusion. If they want to have

:22:05. > :22:10.an open and frank conversation right across Scotland, experts in

:22:10. > :22:15.all sectors of Scotland, to find a devolution settlement which works

:22:15. > :22:18.best for Scotland. How do we celebrate being part of the United

:22:18. > :22:23.Kingdom and recognise we have rights and responsibilities as part

:22:23. > :22:28.of the UK, while making sure we have policies to make sure we can

:22:28. > :22:32.deliver the kind of society we want to live in, a socially just comical

:22:32. > :22:36.and fairer society. I think there has been confusion. One MP said

:22:36. > :22:43.there has been a great deal in the way this has been handled. No one

:22:43. > :22:48.knew what was discussed, he said on Reporting Scotland, yesterday.

:22:48. > :22:52.have an interim report setting out key areas we want to look at, key

:22:52. > :22:57.recommendations. We have said nothing is set in stone, there are

:22:57. > :23:02.no fine conclusions. We recognise we don't have all the answers and

:23:02. > :23:10.we want to have an open dialogue within the party. Yes, with

:23:10. > :23:13.colleagues, but, more importantly, with Scotland. We are trying to

:23:13. > :23:18.genuinely create a devolution settlement which is not in the best

:23:18. > :23:23.interests of the Labour Party but in the best interests of Scotland.

:23:23. > :23:29.You say you're still to arrive at various conclusions. Income tax,

:23:29. > :23:33.for instance, what is the reasoning? It seems to be unclear.

:23:33. > :23:37.What we have said as there are no final conclusions, there is a

:23:37. > :23:41.strong case for devolving income tax, especially to increase the

:23:41. > :23:46.accountability of the parliament. It is right we look at the big

:23:46. > :23:50.questions to make sure we are not adding administrative burden two

:23:50. > :23:55.companies are individuals. How do we get a model which works in the

:23:55. > :23:59.best interests of Scotland? That is the key point of every

:23:59. > :24:03.recommendation. It is not power for a reason, to get from one building

:24:03. > :24:09.in London to another in Edinburgh, it is powers that be will Purpose

:24:09. > :24:14.for a fairer, more just Scotland. As the devolution commission has

:24:14. > :24:20.pulled apart by your own people, it looks like Better Together is being

:24:20. > :24:23.pulled apart by the unions. I think that some of them are getting upset

:24:23. > :24:30.about Conservative involvement and they want a more Labour oriented

:24:30. > :24:35.campaign? I think you should not fall for the SNP spin machine. The

:24:35. > :24:39.only people suggesting pulling apart is the Yes Scotland campaign,

:24:39. > :24:44.and the SNP. What we and the unions recognise is that when the work

:24:44. > :24:46.together, we are stronger to get than generally win together. The

:24:46. > :24:51.challenge for the Labour Party and the Labour movement is to make sure

:24:51. > :24:55.that not only does our devolution settlement work, but also how we

:24:55. > :25:00.create the policies and ideas in Scotland, making sure we are only

:25:00. > :25:05.doing it types of things that Johann was talking about, fighting

:25:05. > :25:09.inequality and poverty, not just in Glasgow or Inverness but across the

:25:09. > :25:16.UK. That is a Labour strength and that is why I am sure the trade

:25:16. > :25:20.unions will get behind us to keep part of the UK and to return at a

:25:20. > :25:25.UK Labour government in 2015 and Johann Lamont as First Minister in

:25:25. > :25:29.2016. You want all the debate to be above board heading towards the

:25:29. > :25:37.referendum, but you have had a grievance over the past two weeks

:25:37. > :25:47.about the Ian Taylor donation. The SNP set to hand it back, we did not

:25:47. > :25:48.

:25:48. > :25:52.be easier if you did and you could lay the matter to rest? SNP and Yes

:25:52. > :25:58.Scotland don't have the big answers. Let's focus on what type of

:25:58. > :26:02.Scotland they want to live in, and so the unanswered questions. We are

:26:02. > :26:07.about exposing the myths in the debate and revealing the facts.

:26:07. > :26:11.Let's not go on about petty debates which do not matter, let's talk

:26:12. > :26:15.about the issues which affect people every day. I want to live in

:26:15. > :26:20.a left of centre, socially just Scotland, and I think we can

:26:20. > :26:24.deliver it. What is the SNP vision for an independent Scotland? We

:26:24. > :26:29.still don't know. Thank you for joining us.

:26:29. > :26:33.Labour have used the conference to hit out at the SNP economic

:26:33. > :26:37.policies, saying let's get his government ministers have presided

:26:37. > :26:40.over a low economic growth and mass unemployment. The Party finance

:26:40. > :26:44.spokesman claimed there was so much more that Labour could do if they

:26:44. > :26:48.were in power. What are you going to do when you

:26:48. > :26:53.grow up? What are you going to be? We have all been asked this or

:26:53. > :26:59.asked ourselves. When you're young, you don't always know the answer.

:26:59. > :27:04.For most of us at least, you imagine yourself in a job. For

:27:04. > :27:09.200,000 Scots, there is no answer to that question. For one in every

:27:09. > :27:12.six under 25, there is no job to dream about. A decade and a half

:27:12. > :27:17.after the Labour Party battle to rid this country of youth

:27:17. > :27:22.unemployment, this blight on so many lives is back. The problem is

:27:22. > :27:26.worse than ever. When we talk about the Labour vision for Scotland's

:27:26. > :27:30.future, it is not an abstract concept, it means building a

:27:30. > :27:34.healthier, happier and more confident Scotland, tackling

:27:34. > :27:38.inequality. Above all, it means employment - for ourselves, our

:27:38. > :27:42.families and everyone around us. I don't pretend there is a magic key

:27:42. > :27:46.to unlock the door to individual and social prosperity, but I think

:27:46. > :27:50.having a job comes close. It is not just having an income, although

:27:50. > :27:54.goodness knows how many families in Scotland could do with more money

:27:54. > :27:59.right now, but a job can give you pride, self-worth and respect. If

:27:59. > :28:04.we can get Scotland working again, we can tackle proper -- poverty,

:28:04. > :28:10.improve health, give people a stake in society and a sense of shared

:28:10. > :28:13.purpose. Instead, what do we see? The Tory government failing the

:28:13. > :28:18.economy and with a deliberate and calculated objective of reducing

:28:18. > :28:21.public sector employment by half-a- million. And accompanying them, an

:28:21. > :28:25.SNP government making further wrong choices of their own but content to

:28:25. > :28:30.say it is all the fault of Westminster. I don't know how many

:28:30. > :28:34.times I have said that I don't blame the SNP for all the ills in

:28:34. > :28:36.our economy, but I hold them responsible for their own actions.

:28:36. > :28:40.I hold them responsible for the college lecturers who have lost

:28:40. > :28:44.their jobs, the police support staff and carers laid off, but

:28:44. > :28:48.thousands of nurses and teachers who cannot find work because posts

:28:48. > :28:52.have gone. I blame them for spending �800 million putting

:28:52. > :28:57.people at the door, money that could have been better spent hiring

:28:57. > :29:02.1500 teachers, 1500 nurses and 1500 police officers in each of the last

:29:02. > :29:06.five years. There is a line in John Swinney's infamous leaked cabinet

:29:06. > :29:10.paper which talks about the importance of managing the public

:29:10. > :29:15.sector workforce. In case that is not immediately obvious, that his

:29:15. > :29:19.job cuts, to you and me. As the euphemism for the unpalatable, it

:29:19. > :29:23.is on a par with his latest description of the Scottish fiscal

:29:24. > :29:27.deficit as a relative surplus, or when the First Minister says, in

:29:27. > :29:32.terms of the debate - in other words, don't trust a word he says.

:29:32. > :29:36.Conference, let us never forget that the SNP have been in power in

:29:36. > :29:41.Scotland now for six years. Six years of no economic growth, six

:29:41. > :29:46.years of rising prices and falling incomes, six years of mass

:29:46. > :29:51.unemployment. Ed talked last month about this being a lost decade. For

:29:51. > :29:56.me, he has summed up my fears about government in this country. The

:29:56. > :30:00.truth is, both the SNP and the Tories have resigned themselves to

:30:00. > :30:05.that last decade. They have turned their back on the problems of today.

:30:05. > :30:09.The SNP have left us in a state of limbo. Failing to use the problems

:30:09. > :30:13.of devolution to make a difference, failing to have any additional

:30:13. > :30:18.sense of purpose for our nation, and failing to get this country

:30:18. > :30:22.working again. Opposition is an exasperating plays Boris to be, but

:30:22. > :30:28.we can take some heart, because where Labour has led, the SNP have

:30:28. > :30:31.followed. We called for a young person's guarantee for 16 to 18

:30:31. > :30:36.year-olds out of work, we call from apprenticeship scheme to offer

:30:36. > :30:41.thousands the opportunity to learn a trade. Be called for a dedicated

:30:41. > :30:46.youth unemployment Minister. The SNP has at least tried to follow

:30:46. > :30:51.Labour. If we were on power, there are so much more we would be doing.

:30:51. > :30:54.The subsidy scheme would be in place, getting people into work.

:30:54. > :30:59.Industrial manufacturing strategy would be getting the economy moving

:30:59. > :31:03.again. Our community benefit causes would be making better use of the

:31:03. > :31:07.huge resources of government procurement. We would be supporting

:31:07. > :31:11.the construction industry with investment in housing, not cuts. We

:31:11. > :31:15.would be using the knowledge and expertise of our colleges to offer

:31:15. > :31:23.hope to those who need to retrain or learn new skills, rather than

:31:23. > :31:27.slamming the door in their face. We now know that there are 168,000

:31:27. > :31:35.fewer people studying in our colleges than when the SNP came to

:31:35. > :31:38.power. 168,000 fewer students. A third of all those college places

:31:39. > :31:43.for people with additional support needs have gone, and all the while

:31:43. > :31:53.the SNP have spent �45 million pushing college lecturers and staff

:31:53. > :32:06.

:32:06. > :32:10.people on our side, to develop our transport and infrastructure. Let's

:32:10. > :32:14.leave constitutional politics for another day. Let's tell people of

:32:14. > :32:15.our focus on getting all Scots a our focus on getting all Scots a

:32:15. > :32:24.job. job.

:32:24. > :32:28.Thank you. Ken Mcuntosh there. I'm joined by Labour's infrastructure

:32:28. > :32:34.spokesman, Richard Baker. Thank you very much for joining me, live from

:32:34. > :32:38.the conference. Hearing what Ken Mackintosh was saying, a great

:32:38. > :32:42.critique of the SNP's record in power, so he thinks, but actually

:32:42. > :32:46.when we saw the figures today, the largest increase in employment in

:32:46. > :32:50.Scotland for 12 years and GDP figures showing Scotland's economy

:32:50. > :32:55.continuing to outperform the UK. Unemployment in Scotland has fallen

:32:55. > :33:01.over the last five monthly releases and is below 200,000 in the first

:33:01. > :33:06.time in four years. Not an accurate critique from Ken Mackintosh, is it?

:33:06. > :33:10.It is an accurate critique, Andrew. I should say good afternoon. The

:33:10. > :33:13.fact is these figures fluctuate. Other times we've had unemployment

:33:13. > :33:17.higher than the rest of the UK and have lagged behind in terms of

:33:17. > :33:21.growth. We've seen recent improve thes and they are welcome. Any

:33:21. > :33:25.improvement in these figures is welcome but we are starting from a

:33:25. > :33:30.very low base of low growth or no growth at all. We are simply saying

:33:30. > :33:32.as Scottish Labour that we have to be more ambitious than that. That's

:33:32. > :33:37.why we are putting forward different proposals, for example, investing

:33:37. > :33:40.more in housing, a different approach to public sector

:33:40. > :33:43.procurement to get more people back into work. I don't think anybody

:33:43. > :33:50.surely could say those figures you have quoted are good enough and

:33:50. > :33:54.should be good enough for Scotland. Scotland also saw GDP grow in the

:33:54. > :33:58.final quarter of 2012 where it fell for the rest of the UK, this is

:33:58. > :34:01.because the Scottish Government have a smaller settlement from the UK

:34:01. > :34:05.Government What I'm saying to you, is where we have better figures than

:34:05. > :34:09.the rest of the UK that's welcome, but what we are still talking about

:34:09. > :34:13.is extremely low levels of growth indeed. Fractional levels of growth.

:34:13. > :34:17.With you comparing minuscule differences in terms of low or no

:34:17. > :34:22.growth. -- you are comparing. In other years, only recently, we have

:34:22. > :34:25.seen that we have been behind at other times. I'm afraid if things

:34:25. > :34:28.currently continue on the current pat and no change of policy from a

:34:28. > :34:32.Scottish Government, even with continuing the strong economic at

:34:32. > :34:36.Westminster, we are starting to do very much better here in Scotland

:34:36. > :34:40.either. -- we are not doing very much better. Rather than cutting

:34:40. > :34:44.housing budget by 40% and having big drops in construction employment as

:34:44. > :34:50.a result we have put forward plans to invest 330 million more in

:34:50. > :34:55.building more housing, addressing social needs and giving people in

:34:55. > :34:59.the construcks sector those jobs. I don't think it is a be unreasonable

:34:59. > :35:04.proposal. You are talking about policy areas. One key policy area to

:35:04. > :35:09.try to get growth is public were curement, trying to filter out that

:35:09. > :35:14.money -- procurement. Trying to filth ter down to small and

:35:14. > :35:18.medium-size m-sized businesses. -- trying to filter down. Nicola

:35:18. > :35:23.Sturegon was laying that out in Parliament in the week. But they

:35:23. > :35:28.haven't. If you look at cross, they were awarded on the basis of being

:35:28. > :35:32.marked 90% against price and 10% like other aspects like community

:35:32. > :35:36.benefit. In Wales, the same contracts are awarded 60% on price,

:35:36. > :35:43.and 40% on wider community benefit and, for example, awere tisships,

:35:43. > :35:48.paying a living wage, all those other issues. -- apprenticeships.

:35:48. > :35:51.And to benefit local firms, not just multinationals but local firms

:35:51. > :35:55.employing locals. The Scottish Government have got that wrong. It

:35:55. > :35:58.is not just me, organisations say they have got it wrong. I hope they

:35:58. > :36:03.are listening and will change course and tact. But they have to do that.

:36:03. > :36:07.They have not been getting it right so far. Thank you very much. We'll

:36:07. > :36:10.have to leave it there. Now, Professor Curtis is still with

:36:10. > :36:14.Now, Professor Curtis is still with me in the studio. John you were

:36:15. > :36:18.hearing that critique from Ken Mackintosh and Richard Baker's

:36:18. > :36:22.argument, considering the figures we saw this week, are they correct or

:36:22. > :36:25.is the Scottish Government correct? I think you saw a certain amount of

:36:25. > :36:31.difficulty, in pursuing the critique be given the recent figures but

:36:32. > :36:35.there is a wider problem in pursuing arguments on SNP's stewardship of

:36:35. > :36:39.the Scottish economy which, of course, that many of the key powers

:36:39. > :36:42.that Government has in terms of dealing with the economy, do not lie

:36:42. > :36:49.in Holyrood's control. It might have been slightly more interesting,

:36:49. > :36:55.perhaps, if this critique of the S NP's position was Allied with an

:36:55. > :36:58.argument about - well how indeed if the Holyrood Parliament did indeed

:36:58. > :37:02.have responsibility for income tax, how then the Labour Party might

:37:02. > :37:08.think those poufrs could be used to ensure that Scotland's economy was

:37:08. > :37:11.stronger. -- those powers. And thereby produce a better

:37:11. > :37:15.outcome. I think the problem at the moment with all the arguments about

:37:15. > :37:19.saying that ask the land isn't doing better or worse, is in truth given

:37:19. > :37:22.that sof doesn't rely on the Scottish Government's remit and we

:37:22. > :37:27.are talking about the Government with a fixed amount of spending, so

:37:27. > :37:31.if it spends more on construction, it has to spend less anywhere else.

:37:31. > :37:40.I think then it is difficult to pursue this particular argument with

:37:40. > :37:44.a degree of of inteactual credibility. We heard Johann

:37:44. > :37:49.Lamont's speech, we were talking about the substantive points. But

:37:49. > :37:53.when it came to the style, what did you make? At times her speech was

:37:53. > :37:58.ragged when it came to the applause? One of the things for which Johann

:37:58. > :38:02.Lamont has a lot of good commentary is her ability to deal with the

:38:02. > :38:07.First Minister in First Minister's Questions and often her wit and

:38:07. > :38:11.humour and quick-wittedness has resulted in her getting rather good

:38:11. > :38:17.notices. I have to say, how farever, it does look like she still has to

:38:17. > :38:23.master the art of giving a Conference speech. -- however.

:38:23. > :38:27.The essential Wass two-fold. I in a sense am the not the right person to

:38:27. > :38:33.say this, her delivery was too quick. She was saying them too

:38:33. > :38:37.quickly. She was reading a speech, as many politicians do, off the

:38:37. > :38:41.so-called sincerity machine, whereby it is projected to screens in front

:38:41. > :38:46.of her that aren't visible to the audience. One still got the sense

:38:46. > :38:50.she was reading. She needs to learn to pace herself. She still needs to

:38:50. > :38:53.learn to change her tone, so even though the speech might be in front

:38:53. > :38:56.of her, it sounds as though it is coming from the heart, rather than

:38:56. > :39:01.being too prepared. So, in truth, yes, there is still work to be done

:39:01. > :39:05.there. I think, perhaps, particularly unfortunate given what

:39:05. > :39:10.Brian said, this was a speech in which she really was trying to sell

:39:10. > :39:14.herself as a person. She has quite good opinion poll ratings, and she

:39:14. > :39:19.is trying to build on that, but I'm in the quite sure if this speech

:39:19. > :39:24.would have worked so far as that is concerned. I will turn to my

:39:24. > :39:34.sincerity machine and read that we will hand back to Inverness to Brian

:39:34. > :39:40.

:39:40. > :39:46.to has been joined by delegates. I have not dump -- I have indeed. We

:39:46. > :39:50.have Willy Bain. In Scotland they shorten your name

:39:50. > :39:56.at every opportunity. Serious matter bhashgs what did you make of the

:39:56. > :40:01.speech? -- serious matter, what did you make? Fantastic.Very personal.

:40:01. > :40:06.It identified the problems we have, skills, childcare, our education

:40:06. > :40:10.system in big reform and she dealt with those. I think she showed us

:40:10. > :40:15.you can deal with those if you have the right vision, and within the

:40:15. > :40:19.powers that the Scottish Government has. We know childcare assumes so

:40:19. > :40:23.much more in terms of people's after-tax in terms of the UK and

:40:23. > :40:27.Peters of Europe. We need real action on childcare now. She showed

:40:27. > :40:31.she is up to the challenge. She was identifying the problems, you might

:40:31. > :40:35.say, but I didn't hear many of the solutions with regard to those

:40:35. > :40:41.issues, she was saying free personal care, it is a slowing an but isn't

:40:41. > :40:44.working. I didn't hear Labour's answer. -- it is a slowing an. I

:40:44. > :40:49.didn't hear university budgets. think she was changing the terms of

:40:49. > :40:54.the debate. She was saying that this afternoon the real power in politics

:40:54. > :40:58.lies with ideas and not wither power, whichever level of Government

:40:58. > :41:02.it is at. She opened the gates, I think, this afternoon for the ideas

:41:02. > :41:05.to come through. She set our priority and she is saying that our

:41:05. > :41:10.challenge is poverty, while Alex Salmond is actually doing nothing

:41:10. > :41:15.with the powers that he has. She Saud this afternoon that the powers

:41:15. > :41:18.she wants are the powers Salmondsome has and is doing nothing with. --

:41:18. > :41:23.that Alex Salmond has and is doing nothing with. That was very

:41:23. > :41:28.powerful. But a key amount of politics was the economy. Wouldn't

:41:28. > :41:32.it have been honest to have given some credit to the Scottish

:41:32. > :41:36.Government since the unemployment figures and employment figures are

:41:36. > :41:40.et abouter than the rest the UK? seemed to me what came out of the

:41:40. > :41:44.speech was about honesty and power and responsibility and about

:41:44. > :41:46.devolving it down to local Government but more importantly from

:41:46. > :41:51.local government down into communities. I this think that's

:41:51. > :41:55.what came out for me. What we are doing now, the Scottish government

:41:55. > :42:00.can get on with tackling poverty, looking at children, education, land

:42:00. > :42:03.reform. These issues we can get on with now. What seemed to me for the

:42:03. > :42:06.next 18 months all we are going to talk about is the referendum rather

:42:06. > :42:10.than what matter to the people I represent. Let's come to Gerry. They

:42:10. > :42:13.would say, the Scottish Government if they were here in mine tierial

:42:13. > :42:18.form, that they are getting on with those in as much as they can within

:42:18. > :42:23.the constraints of a tight budget set down by Westminster and they

:42:23. > :42:28.would also say they hear from you the additional spending plans, they

:42:28. > :42:33.don't hear the alternatives to find the money. You say that but just

:42:33. > :42:36.look at the legislation pushing through Holyrood at the moment. The

:42:36. > :42:40.post-16 I thinkcation Reform Bill which they say is about widening

:42:40. > :42:44.access. The paragraph about widening access, at the heart of her speech

:42:44. > :42:49.today, the paragraph is that long, it is nonspecific. How long do you

:42:49. > :42:53.want the paragraph to be? Well, what I'm saying. If it is in there, it is

:42:53. > :42:57.in there. There are no specifics in it. It is warm words. They are

:42:57. > :43:00.saying they are doing something on wider access, as far as I can see on

:43:00. > :43:06.the legislation they are not doing anything spe Secretary of. Warm

:43:06. > :43:10.words. She said today that we need the action, and the ideas and the

:43:10. > :43:14.powers that the SNP have. A promise is being made but not the details on

:43:14. > :43:18.where the money would be found. Let's be clear on the economy.

:43:18. > :43:22.Long-term unemployment is going up and wages are going down. The SNP

:43:22. > :43:26.are not using the powers they have, the powers that they could do, to

:43:26. > :43:30.introduce loof-long learning which she talked about in her speech

:43:30. > :43:35.today. -- life-long. That's one of the drivers to get people's wages

:43:35. > :43:41.increase. Only when we see people's wages increase will we see the

:43:41. > :43:46.economy... But that's not given by the Scottish government, it is

:43:46. > :43:50.driven by government policies. are a range of issues. Making sure

:43:50. > :43:54.that people have the ability to progress within a job, to move on to

:43:54. > :43:58.a higher category within a job, to get the skills to move on to even

:43:58. > :44:04.better employment, it is krutical in raising peep's wages, the SNP do not

:44:04. > :44:09.have an agenda. -- it is critical. She also talked about the commission

:44:09. > :44:13.on devolved powers. Some of your colleagues are leery. Are you among

:44:13. > :44:17.the ones who say transferring income tax to the Scottish Parliament is a

:44:17. > :44:21.step too far. We are already transferring part of income tax

:44:21. > :44:26.through the Scotland Act that was passed last year. Those powers come

:44:26. > :44:31.on snreem 2016. The principle of devolving income tax is one of the

:44:31. > :44:34.UK Parliament has been happy to do. - all of income tax. In terms of the

:44:34. > :44:38.plans the commission has set out, this is a beginning of a dialogue

:44:38. > :44:44.with the Scottish people. We need to take this out to every community.

:44:44. > :44:48.This is not just a discussion for MPs and the Scottish Parliament. We

:44:48. > :44:54.need to have the discussion about where the proper balance between the

:44:54. > :45:00.taxes lies. Presumably you were at the meetings of MPs on Tuesday in

:45:00. > :45:04.which they were he is coraited. were not. Are you going to tell me

:45:04. > :45:09.that there was a full and frank exchange of views. There was. There

:45:09. > :45:13.was expression of the idea that as the party of devolution we are in

:45:13. > :45:18.the best place to take it forward to uts next stage. The Commission

:45:18. > :45:21.plans, a good or bad idea? I think you infer vfr a proper conversation

:45:21. > :45:26.unless you throw a grenade in to open up the debate. You guys have

:45:26. > :45:30.been speak being this for the last couple of days. It is now an open

:45:30. > :45:34.conversation. It is not being debated in the Conference hall. That

:45:34. > :45:38.would be open. That would be presuming the Scottish people are

:45:38. > :45:41.going to say. Johann Lamont will be leading a conversation in our

:45:41. > :45:45.communities and wider Scottish society. She will belies enening to

:45:45. > :45:51.our people the powers they want. I think monthly matching those with

:45:51. > :45:54.ideas, and that's what she committed to. Your take on this? It is

:45:54. > :45:57.important that as a Commission, within the next year, we don't speak

:45:57. > :46:02.just within the Labour Party but we get out into communities and we can

:46:02. > :46:06.engage with them. In Edinburgh that's what we did with the

:46:06. > :46:11.manifesto for local government. We speak to residents groups and

:46:11. > :46:16.community #2k3wr0u7s groups. I hope this Commission will do that. --

:46:16. > :46:21.residents groups and community groups.

:46:21. > :46:25.I Hope we'll gr out and say, how do you see the future, here are some of

:46:25. > :46:30.our views, we want to put it to you, here are our views. We want you to

:46:30. > :46:33.come back with your views. Do you frank, could the launch be

:46:33. > :46:38.better-handled? Launches perhaps suit people like yourself but what

:46:38. > :46:41.is important is what we do out in our communities. How we engage with

:46:41. > :46:44.our communities, residents groups and community groups and people

:46:44. > :46:54.and community groups and people and community groups and people

:46:54. > :47:04.

:47:04. > :47:09.Can you work with other parties or groups? What purpose would these

:47:09. > :47:13.policies serve? If we were going to consider devolving further tax

:47:13. > :47:18.powers, it would be with that end in mind. If we were going to do

:47:18. > :47:22.ball further income tax powers and powers around other taxes, it would

:47:22. > :47:28.be to create a fairer and more progressive tax system in Scotland.

:47:28. > :47:32.Jenny Marra, Johann Lamont said this was a debate, Alex Salmond

:47:32. > :47:35.versus Scotland. Loads of luck with that one given that he won an

:47:35. > :47:40.overall majority a short time ago in a voting system explicitly

:47:40. > :47:47.designed by Labour to prevent him from doing so. He is rather

:47:47. > :47:52.popular? I think a silent majority do not support independence, and I

:47:53. > :47:57.think Johann underlined that. This devolution discussion, I do not

:47:57. > :48:01.care what Alex Salmond has to say, because the truth is that Alex

:48:01. > :48:04.Salmond does not believe in devolution. We are the party of

:48:05. > :48:08.devolution, we delivered the Scottish Parliament. He wants

:48:08. > :48:16.independence, that is the cliff that he wants to jump off. The

:48:16. > :48:22.devolution debate is ours, Johann will lead to that. But Alex Salmond

:48:22. > :48:26.versus Scotland? For goodness sake, he won an overall majority. Lots of

:48:26. > :48:30.people do not want to go down the route of independence, that was

:48:31. > :48:37.Johann as saying. How does Labour need to play the referendum

:48:37. > :48:44.campaign? You're working with other parties in Better Together, but is

:48:44. > :48:48.it primarily a Labour offering? think that in the campaign, parties

:48:48. > :48:52.have come together for a Common Purpose on the referendum, but I

:48:52. > :48:58.think it is up to the Labour Party to give the vision of how these see

:48:58. > :49:01.Scotland, following the referendum. That is what we need to do in the

:49:01. > :49:07.Scottish Labour Party. I speak to people who want to know the Labour

:49:07. > :49:12.Party vision for Scotland, but more importantly, to go back, we need to

:49:12. > :49:17.speak to communities. They are the ones living day and, day out with

:49:17. > :49:22.the policies that we all want to implement. Thank you all very much

:49:22. > :49:25.for joining the discussion. With that analysis, it is back to the

:49:25. > :49:29.studio. Professor John Curtice is still

:49:29. > :49:34.with me. Lots of use pouring out from the Labour conference over the

:49:34. > :49:38.course of the weekend. Where does this leave the Independent's

:49:38. > :49:44.campaign debate? If it is worth reflecting that it has probably

:49:44. > :49:47.been the case since Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister, stood at

:49:47. > :49:50.Scotland and told us that the Scottish government did not have

:49:50. > :49:54.legal advice on whether or not Scotland would or would not

:49:54. > :50:00.continue to be a member of the European Union, ever since then, I

:50:00. > :50:06.think on fairness the Yes side is on the back foot in the exchange

:50:06. > :50:13.about independence. The Better Campaign has to worry that maybe

:50:13. > :50:16.now the pendulum has swung in the other direction. I think it has had

:50:16. > :50:23.two substantial embarrassments, the first was the row about the

:50:23. > :50:25.donation from Mr Taylor, which I am sure many people in terms of the

:50:25. > :50:31.details will not follow, but they will have picked up that somebody

:50:31. > :50:34.who has given a donation to the Better To get the campaign, some

:50:34. > :50:37.people feel he has had a shady background and he was criticised

:50:37. > :50:42.when he gave money to the Conservatives, but now he is

:50:42. > :50:45.apparently OK. And visions people have seen over the past 24 hours,

:50:45. > :50:50.including in this programme, Ed Miliband refusing on saying where

:50:50. > :50:54.he stands on the idea that there should be more devolution of tax

:50:54. > :50:58.powers. Margaret Curran on this programme refusing to say that she

:50:58. > :51:02.thought it was a pretty good idea and the party should think about it.

:51:02. > :51:06.I think what the party has to worry about, and it will be interesting

:51:06. > :51:10.to see whether the SNP reacts, is whether the SNP will be inclined to

:51:10. > :51:14.say to people, we know that you have been uncertain and you thought

:51:14. > :51:18.you could just have lots more devolution. Well, actually, can you

:51:18. > :51:23.trust the Labour Party to deliver that if they are apparently so

:51:23. > :51:29.reticent about ideas that they themselves have published. I think

:51:29. > :51:34.that is the risk the Labour Party is running. Maybe the pendulum will

:51:34. > :51:40.not swing, but I think there is an opportunity for the Yes campaign to

:51:40. > :51:43.put the No side on the back foot. Now back to Inverness for one final

:51:43. > :51:49.time, Brian is joined by members of the press.

:51:49. > :51:55.We had a trio of politicians, now we have a pair of journalistic aces,

:51:55. > :52:01.Eddie Barnes and Magners garden. What did you think? In politics,

:52:01. > :52:08.there is such an anti-politics mood. Authenticity is the cult -- is the

:52:08. > :52:13.holy grail. I think what you have seen at the moments, Johann is

:52:13. > :52:16.driving as the woman who tells it straight. That is very much a

:52:16. > :52:19.picture coming through loud and clear up in a lot of her speeches,

:52:20. > :52:26.it came through for me in that speech.

:52:26. > :52:32.I degree, I think honesty was one of the key messages. -- I agree.

:52:32. > :52:38.There was an obvious contrast with the First Minister, who they have

:52:38. > :52:43.accused of being less than honest. He would rebut that robustly. But I

:52:43. > :52:47.think the key message in Johann Lamont's speech was when she said

:52:47. > :52:52.the powers they really want are the powers Alex Salmond already has. It

:52:52. > :52:57.was a continuing theme, the SNP government, she claims, are not

:52:57. > :53:02.using powers at their disposal, across a whole range of subjects

:53:02. > :53:06.such as the health service, free personal care. That was at the

:53:06. > :53:10.heart of the speech. There was finally a substantial mention of

:53:10. > :53:13.the devolution commission, which she set up and which reported on

:53:13. > :53:18.Thursday. What I thought was interesting was there was quite a

:53:18. > :53:23.clear message to MPs in the speech, I don't want any fewer MPs in

:53:23. > :53:28.Parliament. And that having the response we have seen over last 48

:53:28. > :53:34.hours, don't worry, I don't want to get rid of you. It was a message of

:53:34. > :53:41.reassurance, trying to rein it back a little bit from the implications.

:53:41. > :53:45.And yet this has caused a row? has. It has not quite broken out

:53:45. > :53:50.but it has rather threaten to overshadow the conference. There is

:53:50. > :53:56.a division. It is to a black-and- white to say it is between MPs and

:53:56. > :54:01.MSPs... It is more nuanced than that. There is a difference of

:54:01. > :54:05.opinion. I think it centres rather than on the merits of the policy of

:54:05. > :54:15.itself off to boarding income tax in full, more on the political

:54:15. > :54:16.

:54:16. > :54:23.necessity. Some people believe that the referendum will result in a

:54:23. > :54:29.heavy defeat for the independents, on the other hand people think the

:54:29. > :54:39.referendum could be closer, the SNP would emerge quite strongly, and

:54:39. > :54:40.

:54:40. > :54:45.Daisy the needs to... Own this was not about appeasing. She is talking

:54:45. > :54:49.about not appeasing reliance by throwing them more Christians. I

:54:49. > :54:53.think that was aimed at the sceptics in her party. It will be

:54:53. > :55:01.very, very interesting to see whether Johann Lamont could, even

:55:01. > :55:05.if she wanted, backtrack from this. Where do you see this going? Where

:55:05. > :55:10.do you see this going in practice when there is consultation on the

:55:10. > :55:15.way? I think she has calmed down a bit by saying this is just the

:55:15. > :55:18.start of the process. It goes back here and of months' time, that is

:55:18. > :55:21.when the final Commission report comes out, there will have to be a

:55:21. > :55:29.lot of talking to bring people around and reassure people's

:55:29. > :55:31.concerns about the extent they are going to. Rather than making that

:55:31. > :55:37.an issue about tactics or appeasement, we need to know about

:55:37. > :55:42.the principles of this party. do you think we are? Labour are

:55:42. > :55:47.working in A better Together, but it is very much a Labour of the

:55:47. > :55:54.coming out? I think they could not see themselves as being the only no

:55:54. > :55:58.party. They need to make it an issue of principle.

:55:59. > :56:05.We have seen the start of the discreet Labour referendum campaign.

:56:05. > :56:09.I'm not sure that Truth Team is a great name -- name for the

:56:09. > :56:15.initiative, but the unions were at least pleased to see a separate

:56:15. > :56:20.Labour referendum campaign emerging which will run in parallel with the

:56:20. > :56:27.cross-party Better To get their effort. Thank you both for analysis.

:56:27. > :56:31.Back to the studio. That brings our live television

:56:31. > :56:36.coverage of the conference to a close. My thanks to Professor John

:56:36. > :56:42.Curtice for his company this afternoon. Any changes in the polls

:56:42. > :56:46.after this conference, do you think? If you look at the party

:56:46. > :56:51.position in the opinion polls, it is almost still in as bad a

:56:51. > :56:55.position as in 2011. So far as pushing the party forward in terms

:56:55. > :57:01.of looking like a party that could win power in 2016, there is still

:57:01. > :57:05.an awful lot of work to do. Thank you for your company this afternoon.

:57:05. > :57:11.Join me tomorrow for more on the conference on Sunday Politics

:57:11. > :57:15.Scotland at a later time of 2:35pm. We will have much more, including a