11/03/2017

:00:21. > :00:27.Hello and welcome to our live coverage of the Scottish Liberal

:00:28. > :00:30.Democrats Spring Conference. The leader Willie Rennie will set out

:00:31. > :00:38.his case for Scotland to stay part of the UK. We will have that, live.

:00:39. > :00:42.The MSP Alex Cole-Hamilton tells BBC Scotland his party's MPs in the

:00:43. > :00:48.Commons would block moves for a second independence referendum.

:00:49. > :00:55.And I will be here at the ice rink in Perth going over the figures from

:00:56. > :00:59.the conference. Spring Conference season feels

:01:00. > :01:02.slightly feverish as the political temperature grows around Brexit and

:01:03. > :01:08.an anticipated second referendum. This time it's the turn of the Lib

:01:09. > :01:11.Dems, brandishing their pro-European credentials by demanding a

:01:12. > :01:17.referendum on Britain's departure deal from the EU. As ever our

:01:18. > :01:21.political editor is standing by on the conference floor. Brian, good

:01:22. > :01:26.afternoon. The Lib Dems suffered quite a setback last year in the

:01:27. > :01:30.Holyrood election, bumped down to fifth place by the Greens at the

:01:31. > :01:36.parliamentary election. That is a polite way of putting it,

:01:37. > :01:40.especially after the aftermath of the Westminster outcome as well.

:01:41. > :01:44.Where do they believe they are now? They believe they can corral two

:01:45. > :01:50.positions. One, they say they are the only party pro UK and pro EU

:01:51. > :01:54.without any backsliding from those. They believe that is where the

:01:55. > :01:59.Scottish people are as well, taking account of the two referendums we've

:02:00. > :02:04.had in 2014 and 2016. The challenge for Willie Rennie is to change could

:02:05. > :02:10.let potential position in line with the zeitgeist into practical votes.

:02:11. > :02:13.That is rather a challenge as he, his party and others have found in

:02:14. > :02:17.the past. We are just hearing from the

:02:18. > :02:21.conference behind you. There were some comments from Alex

:02:22. > :02:25.Cole-Hamilton, a leading right, one of the party's MSPs in Scotland

:02:26. > :02:30.today saying his party would block moves in the House of Commons for

:02:31. > :02:35.that section 30 order. Yes, basically you have all sorts of

:02:36. > :02:40.numbers flying around. We are anticipating Article 50 triggered by

:02:41. > :02:44.the Prime Minister to begin the process of withdrawing Britain from

:02:45. > :02:48.the European Union. Then could there be a request from the First Minister

:02:49. > :02:52.perhaps at her conference this time next week, that there should be a

:02:53. > :02:56.transfer under section 30 of the Scotland act 1998, the one that

:02:57. > :03:01.deals with added powers? The added power she has in mind is the power

:03:02. > :03:07.is in 2014, to call a referendum and call it under legitimate powers. If

:03:08. > :03:10.that section 30 request is made Alex Cole-Hamilton is saying it would

:03:11. > :03:13.have to go through Parliament at Westminster and he says his lot

:03:14. > :03:17.would vote against it and seek to stop it. Thank you very much. Much

:03:18. > :03:21.more from you later in the programme.

:03:22. > :03:28.We are joined here for the duration of the programme by a man who almost

:03:29. > :03:29.needs no introduction, Professor John Curtis of Strathclyde

:03:30. > :03:35.University. Thank you for joining us. Just as Brian was saying, a

:03:36. > :03:42.polite way of putting it to say the Greens, the Lib Dems were bumped

:03:43. > :03:46.down to fifth place, of course. The truth is the Liberal Democrats have

:03:47. > :03:54.been in deep electoral trouble since 2011. The most recent Holyrood

:03:55. > :03:59.election, exactly the same as five years ruthlessly. What is now going

:04:00. > :04:04.on is the party is hoping, not just in Scotland but across the UK as a

:04:05. > :04:10.whole, to be able to use the debate about Brexit as a way of retraining

:04:11. > :04:14.some credibility. We saw in the Richmond by-election in London in

:04:15. > :04:17.the autumn, the party pulled off quite a spectacular victory and

:04:18. > :04:22.since then across the UK as a whole, its vote in the opinion polls has

:04:23. > :04:26.finally been up two or three points. It is now running at ten or 11

:04:27. > :04:30.rather than the 8% in the general election. It is pretty clear those

:04:31. > :04:37.voters gained are among those in favour of remaining. Here is the

:04:38. > :04:42.party first in favour of the UK joining the EU, the party most

:04:43. > :04:46.comfortable with the UK's mentorship of the European Union and looking to

:04:47. > :04:50.go back to basics as far as its message is concerned, to try and get

:04:51. > :04:55.voters back. The problem for the party north of the border is that

:04:56. > :05:00.the field is a bit more crowded, because the SNP have also been

:05:01. > :05:03.campaigning quite strongly in favour of Scotland remaining inside the

:05:04. > :05:08.European Union, and indeed that's perhaps the reason Nicola Sturgeon

:05:09. > :05:11.may call a second independence referendum. I think what we are

:05:12. > :05:16.hearing that this conference is an attempt either Liberal Democrats to

:05:17. > :05:20.say, hang on, we are also the real pro-EU party in Scotland, because at

:05:21. > :05:24.the moment at least there isn't any evidence in the polls that the party

:05:25. > :05:28.north of the border are profiting from the party's pro Brexit position

:05:29. > :05:34.in the way the party has to some degree at least done in England and

:05:35. > :05:38.Wales. What do you make of points made by Alex Cole-Hamilton in

:05:39. > :05:42.Scotland today? One has to say it was a little surprising. Gordon

:05:43. > :05:45.Brewer who was conducting the interview was probably also

:05:46. > :05:48.surprised. It has to be said it seemed to cut across the comments

:05:49. > :05:54.that Nick Clegg, the former party leader, gave in a briefing to

:05:55. > :05:57.journalists after his speech yesterday, which I think we will see

:05:58. > :06:02.more of later on, in which he suggested basically the same to the

:06:03. > :06:05.Prime Minister there should be a fatwa on a second independence

:06:06. > :06:08.referendum, suggesting although he didn't think there should be a

:06:09. > :06:12.second referendum, that the UK Parliament should not stand in the

:06:13. > :06:17.way of one should the request for one come. It might be suggested that

:06:18. > :06:21.maybe Nick Clegg, as one of the nine Liberal Democrat MPs, and as the

:06:22. > :06:24.party's European spokesman might be thought more of an authority on what

:06:25. > :06:29.his party position might be on this than Alex Cole-Hamilton, excellent

:06:30. > :06:32.though Alex Cole-Hamilton is. We have to see how it falls out.

:06:33. > :06:36.Certainly it sounded though yesterday, that unlike the

:06:37. > :06:39.Conservative conference last week, we were going to get an answer from

:06:40. > :06:44.the Democrats about what they think should happen if Nicola Sturgeon

:06:45. > :06:48.does request a second independence referendum. After this morning we

:06:49. > :06:54.are left still in a degree of confusion. Thank you. More from you

:06:55. > :06:57.later in the programme, as well. Earlier conference debated a motion

:06:58. > :07:02.looking at how to keep the United Kingdom in the EU. Central to it was

:07:03. > :07:05.a call for a referendum on the final terms of the deal between the UK

:07:06. > :07:08.Government and the rest of the EU. It began with a speech by a certain

:07:09. > :07:17.Alex Cole-Hamilton. Before June I have never cried about

:07:18. > :07:21.an election result. As a Liberal Democrat given the decade we had

:07:22. > :07:28.that is something of an achievement. On the morning of the 24th of June I

:07:29. > :07:33.wept bitterly. It felt as though I had woken to a country I no longer

:07:34. > :07:38.recognised. That 52% of my fellow people were at odds at everything I

:07:39. > :07:44.hold dear. This referendum is one on a case that has long since

:07:45. > :07:47.evaporated, an voodoo economics, xenophobia and amidst representation

:07:48. > :07:52.of our entire relationship with European institutions. And now, in

:07:53. > :07:56.the final analysis, the true cost of a hard Brexit is being measured out

:07:57. > :08:05.in the abject terror etched on faces of academics, and economists. Today

:08:06. > :08:13.I want to send a message to internationalists who rejected

:08:14. > :08:17.independence in 2014 but are sick of Brexit and are toying with it in

:08:18. > :08:21.order to regain their membership of the EU, Nicola Sturgeon is using

:08:22. > :08:25.you. Nearly half of her party who voted supported leave and already

:08:26. > :08:29.she is marching to the beat of their drum, desperate to keep the

:08:30. > :08:33.independence coalition alive she has jettisoned any reference of four

:08:34. > :08:40.mentorship of the EU, talking instead meekly about after and of

:08:41. > :08:42.customs union. They cannot be trusted by those of us who care

:08:43. > :08:49.about Europe. I'm going to go against the majority

:08:50. > :08:53.view of this party for the simple reason it is unrealistic and

:08:54. > :08:58.unfeasible. As much as it pains me to say this, the UK is leaving the

:08:59. > :09:05.European Union and anyone who disagrees with Brexit is publicly

:09:06. > :09:10.attacked by the right-wing media. Now I never had a say in it, but I

:09:11. > :09:16.respect the view of England and Wales. But I also respect the will

:09:17. > :09:22.of the Scottish people to remain, which I believe we must honour at

:09:23. > :09:26.all costs. To do so is democratically acceptable and it is

:09:27. > :09:31.of paramount importance that we defend our place in the European

:09:32. > :09:36.Union. We simply cannot afford to fall in the footsteps of Labour and

:09:37. > :09:38.the Conservatives in not respecting the European Union result in

:09:39. > :09:44.Scotland. On independence, I was a no

:09:45. > :09:50.supporter in 2014, but then I saw what happened last year. I changed

:09:51. > :09:54.my mind, although I did love the UK, I've witnessed a sharp right turn in

:09:55. > :09:59.people's views, talking about our friends, teachers, our colleagues

:10:00. > :10:06.and doctors, like they're aliens with a vicious plot to destroy our

:10:07. > :10:10.country. I don't want to live and an intolerant UK overrun by right-wing

:10:11. > :10:13.populists. I want Scotland to be a member of a progressive, outward

:10:14. > :10:19.looking confident with our friends at the European Union. Yesterday I

:10:20. > :10:23.read an article by a Spanish member of the European Parliament, saying

:10:24. > :10:29.they won't veto Scottish membership of the EU. I also saw an editor 's

:10:30. > :10:33.Mori poll showing support for independence is neck and neck at the

:10:34. > :10:37.moment. What does this show? It shows that more people in our

:10:38. > :10:45.country are starting to think like me, and that obstacles are slowly

:10:46. > :10:52.deteriorating. I'm unable to plan my future here

:10:53. > :10:57.because I have a sword above me. Not only I didn't get a voice in the EU

:10:58. > :11:02.referendum, but the Tory government had the audacity to use me and my

:11:03. > :11:07.fellow EU expatriates as a bargaining chip in the hard Brexit

:11:08. > :11:13.negotiations. We are threatened lose our job, our house, our lives that

:11:14. > :11:22.we've built here. A very complex 85 page form for permanent residence.

:11:23. > :11:27.Lib Dem research showed 28% of them, including those with British

:11:28. > :11:32.families and children, have been rejected, sometimes for an un-ticked

:11:33. > :11:36.box and we were told to be prepared to leave this country.

:11:37. > :11:40.The former Deputy Prime Minister has warned delegates at the conference

:11:41. > :11:44.that Brexit could lead to the end of the United Kingdom. Nick Clegg told

:11:45. > :11:48.the audience to be on their guard against despair and defeatism and

:11:49. > :11:51.attempted to make arguments for liberal values, at a time when he

:11:52. > :11:55.sees national was on the rise. Brian Taylor caught up with him.

:11:56. > :12:02.Nick Clegg, Thank you for joining us. With regard to Brexit, I get the

:12:03. > :12:07.concept, but now we are where we are, what is your objective now,

:12:08. > :12:13.what are you seeking? The main objective is now to give the British

:12:14. > :12:20.people a proper say about what happens next, because let's remember

:12:21. > :12:24.the referendum on the 23rd of June last year gave the mandate of the

:12:25. > :12:29.government to proceed with Brexit, but it gave the British people

:12:30. > :12:33.absolutely no idea, no depiction or notion of what kind of Brexit.

:12:34. > :12:37.There's a lot of different versions of Brexit. The Brexiteers cleverly

:12:38. > :12:40.and cynically withheld from the British people any description of

:12:41. > :12:43.what kind of Brexit they were pursuing. The reason they withheld

:12:44. > :12:48.that is they didn't want to frighten the horses at the time. So they won

:12:49. > :12:52.a surprising victory in the ballot box, but the cost of a complete sort

:12:53. > :12:56.of vacuum as to what happens next. Of course, it should be the British

:12:57. > :13:00.people in charge of our collective fate, just as they were in terms of

:13:01. > :13:07.the initial decision. That's why we say when we finally know what Brexit

:13:08. > :13:11.finally in tales from subsidies to fisheries to our trade relations and

:13:12. > :13:14.so on, give the British people the first say in what Brexit really

:13:15. > :13:20.means in substance. With that further referendum be only on the

:13:21. > :13:24.details of the terms or might it involve reversing Brexit altogether,

:13:25. > :13:27.putting a stop to it altogether? If the British people were to say when

:13:28. > :13:30.we're right at the edge of the cliff at that point, we don't want to jump

:13:31. > :13:37.off and we'd rather stay on terra firma, clearly it would be then for

:13:38. > :13:41.us as a nation to decide whether we are after all want to stay in the

:13:42. > :13:45.European Union. My own view... You could see as a prospect, that Brexit

:13:46. > :13:49.doesn't happen? I can only see that as a prospect of the British people

:13:50. > :13:55.change their mind. It seems to me that one of the absolute central

:13:56. > :13:59.elements of any democracy is the freedom to change your mind when the

:14:00. > :14:04.facts change. Now at the moment we don't know what Brexit looks like. I

:14:05. > :14:08.hope people like me, will have the humility that if Brexit turns out to

:14:09. > :14:11.be a wonderful success, as Boris Johnson says, it will be

:14:12. > :14:15.splendiferous and a wonderful utopia. The deal? Yes, then I hope

:14:16. > :14:20.people like me would have the humility to say we were wrong.

:14:21. > :14:26.Equally, just imagine if the numerous predictions that Brexit

:14:27. > :14:29.isn't going to be a walk in a park or an economic paradise, creating

:14:30. > :14:32.difficulties for families up and down the country you should give the

:14:33. > :14:36.family is the right to say what then happens. Theresa May would say a

:14:37. > :14:40.parliamentary vote on the Parliamentary vote would be yes to

:14:41. > :14:44.the terms or we leave without any terms. You are saying there should

:14:45. > :14:48.be a public, popular vote and it would be either yes to the terms or

:14:49. > :14:51.we stay in Europe? Theresa May's position at the moment is ludicrous.

:14:52. > :14:56.She says Parliament should have a vote but I will only give Parliament

:14:57. > :15:02.vote between what might be a bad deal, so a rubbish deal, and chaos.

:15:03. > :15:05.Since when is any Parliament, let alone the mother of all

:15:06. > :15:09.Parliaments... What we are saying is if and when there is a deal, if and

:15:10. > :15:13.when there is a deal you then have a choice. Either Theresa May decides

:15:14. > :15:17.legally on behalf of the whole nation whether we go ahead with it

:15:18. > :15:24.or not, or the politicians do, or the people. I think in keeping with

:15:25. > :15:27.the initial kind of decision to proceed towards Brexit, the decision

:15:28. > :15:32.to finally sort of sign and seal it should be taken by the people.

:15:33. > :15:37.Either way, this is not some sort of kooky Lib Dem idea but advocated by

:15:38. > :15:41.David Davis, John Redwood and many Brexiteers in the past. They've now

:15:42. > :15:44.rather conveniently fallen silent because they think they have the

:15:45. > :15:51.country over a barrel and are going to proceed with hard Brexit at any

:15:52. > :15:54.cost. You would put the alternative accept the terms of the deal or stay

:15:55. > :16:00.in the European Union, that would be the alternative? Or go back to the

:16:01. > :16:04.negotiating table. A multiple option? I think when you have the

:16:05. > :16:12.referendum, as we know for better or for worse, referendums are guilty of

:16:13. > :16:15.simplifying difficult choices, now you know what Brexit entails and

:16:16. > :16:21.what it means for your family, do you still want it yes or no. And no

:16:22. > :16:27.would be used in the European Union? I think legally no would of course

:16:28. > :16:30.be Britain... And I suspect many other European countries would hold

:16:31. > :16:36.their heads in the hands that Britain said we want to go, then

:16:37. > :16:41.stay, and then stay after all. I know having spoken to many leaders

:16:42. > :16:43.of the European Union, however sad they are Britain wants to leave on

:16:44. > :16:49.how exasperated they are by this coming and going over the 40 years

:16:50. > :16:52.we've been a member of the European Union, they all, they all in the

:16:53. > :16:56.final instance believe it would be better for the European Union to be

:16:57. > :17:01.a family of nations working together, rather than falling apart.

:17:02. > :17:06.Some of your rivals would call this... Saying it was a way of

:17:07. > :17:09.getting around June 23. Do you think it's feasible Britain will remain in

:17:10. > :17:14.the EU at the end of this process? I think it is possible, not

:17:15. > :17:18.necessarily likely but possible. Events are changing so dramatically.

:17:19. > :17:22.I will tell you why I don't think it's impossible. If you and I had

:17:23. > :17:25.received, and millions of other voters, in the run-up to the

:17:26. > :17:32.referendum in June, had received a manifesto will with photos of Boris

:17:33. > :17:35.Johnson, Nigel Farage, Michael Gove on the front cover and a nice

:17:36. > :17:40.introduction saying, this is our collective view of the kind of

:17:41. > :17:44.Brexit we want, in and out of the singles market and Customs union and

:17:45. > :17:48.so on, then people like me would now not have a leg to stand on, because

:17:49. > :17:51.not only would they have gained the mandate to proceed towards Brexit,

:17:52. > :17:55.they would have gained the mandate from the British people on the terms

:17:56. > :18:00.of the Brexit. They very deliberately and cynically didn't do

:18:01. > :18:03.that. They actually still don't agree among themselves about what

:18:04. > :18:07.sort of Brexit they want. That is why there is still a decision to be

:18:08. > :18:11.made, which is yes we are proceeding towards Brexit. We don't know what

:18:12. > :18:15.kind of Brexit. That surely... It's not a technical matter, it's a

:18:16. > :18:20.matter of profound constitutional significance, what kind of Brexit,

:18:21. > :18:23.hard Brexit or soft Brexit, a disruptive one or less disruptive

:18:24. > :18:27.one. The people should have the final say. Nick Clegg, thank you

:18:28. > :18:35.very much indeed for joining me. Nick Clegg there are of course.

:18:36. > :18:41.Brian is back live now. Yes, joined by two parliamentarians.

:18:42. > :18:48.Thank you both for joining us. Mike Rumbles and Mike Purvis. Let's talk

:18:49. > :18:52.Europe first of all. We've been hearing that Europe debate, the

:18:53. > :18:57.contributions from Nick Clegg, the former leader. You talk about this

:18:58. > :19:02.referendum on the Brexit terms. That is a diddle, a way of saying we lost

:19:03. > :19:05.and with sore and we want to run the contest again. The point we made

:19:06. > :19:08.repeatedly in the House of Lords, and we were the strongest in the

:19:09. > :19:13.House of Lords when it came to trying to change the Article 50 bill

:19:14. > :19:16.to reflect what I think it's a growing desire in the country, it's

:19:17. > :19:22.the people who should decide, weather and exit deal with the EU is

:19:23. > :19:28.in their interest. The voters of leave would say your loss, give in

:19:29. > :19:31.and don't try and run it again. To hold it again and again until you

:19:32. > :19:34.get the answer you like stubble or they might say that but they would

:19:35. > :19:38.be arguing probably the same case they have been arguing for 25 years

:19:39. > :19:45.and longer. We can set that aside. The real issue is the youngest

:19:46. > :19:49.people, many of which were not in referendum at all, the 16 and

:19:50. > :19:52.17-year-olds, will have an average 60 years to live with this

:19:53. > :19:56.consequence of what will be decided in the next few years, we believe

:19:57. > :20:00.very strongly they should decide if the exit deal is in the best

:20:01. > :20:03.interests for themselves. That's why we made the case in Parliament. We

:20:04. > :20:10.will continue to make that case on Monday in the House of Lords,

:20:11. > :20:15.because I believe the people are the best of the is the best deal or not.

:20:16. > :20:18.Mike Rumbles, on the point of principle, if you like. Isn't it

:20:19. > :20:25.arguable that you should now just accept the position and try without

:20:26. > :20:29.rather than seeking to overturn it? I think the differences we accept

:20:30. > :20:34.the decision of the British on the referendum but when the referendum

:20:35. > :20:38.negotiations are over it shouldn't be the Prime Minister and Cabinet to

:20:39. > :20:41.decide on the terms with which we leave the EU. We need to know what

:20:42. > :20:44.the deal is and we need to tell the British people and the British

:20:45. > :20:48.people are sovereign on this. We should be saying to them, here is

:20:49. > :20:51.the deal the Prime Minister has negotiated. Do you want to accept

:20:52. > :20:55.this deal or not? The first referendum was only the start of the

:20:56. > :21:02.process. The end of the process is a rubber stamp from the voters, from

:21:03. > :21:05.the people, to save this is right or wrong. Let's talk about the House of

:21:06. > :21:10.Lords again. You mentioned the Lords have sent it back to the Commons

:21:11. > :21:13.with two crucial amendment, saying there should be an actual real

:21:14. > :21:21.Parliamentary vote at the end and there should be a sanction the EU

:21:22. > :21:25.members to stay. If the Commons just chuck throws back on this know is

:21:26. > :21:30.that the end of it or do you see it going back and forth? We believe

:21:31. > :21:34.very strongly these are of fundamental importance. Whether the

:21:35. > :21:37.Labour Party will crumble in the House of Commons as they did in the

:21:38. > :21:42.House of Lords we will see on Monday evening. This is something where, we

:21:43. > :21:48.are the party that wanted to reform the Lords, we wanted it to be a

:21:49. > :21:53.democratic -- democratically elected chamber. We will use those powers

:21:54. > :21:57.and if anything, the speech I made in the Article 50, I'm casting votes

:21:58. > :22:01.for the next generation and for the young people in Scotland and across

:22:02. > :22:07.the whole of the UK that didn't vote for Brexit, they need a voice and I

:22:08. > :22:12.want to be that voice. Today they will argue the Liberal Democrats can

:22:13. > :22:15.represent a majority, pro-EU, pro-UK, a majority in Scotland

:22:16. > :22:18.because of the outcome of the two referendums but you are not

:22:19. > :22:23.demonstrating that on the ground in terms of popular support. We are

:22:24. > :22:28.starting from a pretty low level but going upwards. The opinion polls are

:22:29. > :22:31.up, our council elections victory is a wrap. All measures of electoral

:22:32. > :22:37.support are up. We have a tremendous opportunity now to convince the

:22:38. > :22:40.Scottish people that we are the only party out there that want the United

:22:41. > :22:45.Kingdom together and want to be in the European Union. Do you expect

:22:46. > :22:49.there to be a second referendum on independence? Do you expect that to

:22:50. > :22:53.happen? I don't expect it to happen because the First Minister doesn't

:22:54. > :22:56.have a mandate for it. If it comes to the Scottish Parliament, we are

:22:57. > :23:00.committed to voting against this because there is no mandate. I tell

:23:01. > :23:05.you why, because she is usurping my vote on the vote of many people like

:23:06. > :23:09.me last year when she says Scotland voted to stay in the European Union.

:23:10. > :23:13.On the ballot paper, my ballot paper said we wanted the UK to remain in

:23:14. > :23:17.the European Union. She doesn't have a mandate. Nick Clegg takes a

:23:18. > :23:21.different view and says they shouldn't be a fatwa from the Prime

:23:22. > :23:26.Minister. Admittedly he says he's against the idea of a second

:23:27. > :23:29.referendum. Would you as part of parliamentarians at Westminster seek

:23:30. > :23:33.to block the section 30 power being transferred back to Scotland?

:23:34. > :23:36.Currently we have no idea what Nicola Sturgeon is wanting to put

:23:37. > :23:40.forward and we have no idea what Theresa May and the Conservatives

:23:41. > :23:46.are doing. Clarity on the Liberal Democrat position. There is no

:23:47. > :23:51.question that needs to be clarity. Mike has given the position... From

:23:52. > :23:56.the Scottish party that we don't even want it to get out of Holyrood,

:23:57. > :24:00.because we stood on our manifesto campaign. There's no question.

:24:01. > :24:04.Anyone watching the should have no question, we don't support another

:24:05. > :24:09.Scottish referendum. Even if the people... We had the referendum

:24:10. > :24:13.once, once-in-a-lifetime. That was supposed to close down the whole

:24:14. > :24:18.issue. The difference with the European referendum is that

:24:19. > :24:23.referendum last year started the process and we need to finish it.

:24:24. > :24:26.What we should have done in the independence referendum, that was a

:24:27. > :24:31.stop and close because the Scottish people clearly said no, we want to

:24:32. > :24:36.stay within the United Kingdom. I beg your pardon, we have to stop

:24:37. > :24:37.there, going into the hall itself... Willie Rennie is about to speak,

:24:38. > :24:55.let's hear him. Thank you for that very warm welcome

:24:56. > :24:59.and thank you for joining our team of spokespeople. I know you will be

:25:00. > :25:03.a great addition to the team, applying that strong and determined

:25:04. > :25:10.mind to the environment. Thank you again for that introduction.

:25:11. > :25:14.APPLAUSE 2017 of the year of anniversaries in

:25:15. > :25:22.the Rennie family. My parents marked their 60th year of

:25:23. > :25:29.marriage. Janet and I celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary. Our first

:25:30. > :25:34.son Alexander was born 21 years ago. And just for a bit of advance

:25:35. > :25:40.warning, my 50th is in September! LAUGHTER

:25:41. > :25:48.Janet and I set up our first home in a little village in Cornwall.

:25:49. > :25:53.Alexander was born in the hospital in Plymouth. My father served his

:25:54. > :26:01.National Service in Staffordshire. My first proper job was in Cornwall.

:26:02. > :26:08.My son's first job was at Butlins in Somerset. That's my family. Our

:26:09. > :26:12.family story is like so many others in Scotland, and the rest of the

:26:13. > :26:20.United Kingdom. Our lives are intertwined, connected, we are one.

:26:21. > :26:27.Our lives are intertwined as well with people from all across Europe

:26:28. > :26:30.who have set up their home here. Europeans who live, work, pay their

:26:31. > :26:36.taxes, have married and brought up their families here. Like my Polish

:26:37. > :26:40.sister-in-law moniker, living and working in Scotland for a decade and

:26:41. > :26:48.now choosing to make Homer with her new family here in Scotland. We are

:26:49. > :26:53.one. So the debate on the constitution is personal. It's not a

:26:54. > :27:01.dry and dusty debate about government structures. It's about

:27:02. > :27:05.family, community, destiny. I want to bring communities and peoples

:27:06. > :27:11.together, not drive them apart. That is why I will oppose erecting a

:27:12. > :27:15.barrier, any barrier, in the heart of my family. Just like I will

:27:16. > :27:21.oppose erecting a barrier, any barrier, in the heart of the United

:27:22. > :27:25.Kingdom more European Union. The United Kingdom is our family, the

:27:26. > :27:26.European Union is our family and we stand together with our family.

:27:27. > :27:46.APPLAUSE Erecting barriers and division

:27:47. > :27:52.between us and the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland

:27:53. > :27:55.with independence is just as objectionable as the division we are

:27:56. > :28:02.seeing with the people of Europe, as a result of Brexit. It upsets me

:28:03. > :28:06.when I hear conservatives describing European people as takers not

:28:07. > :28:14.givers. That somehow they are only interested in what they can get from

:28:15. > :28:22.our welfare state and NHS. It upsets me when I hear Nationalists describe

:28:23. > :28:28.British people as the far right, selfish, mean-spirited and insular.

:28:29. > :28:33.Conservatives want me to choose my British family over my European

:28:34. > :28:36.family. Nationalists want me to choose my European family over my

:28:37. > :28:42.British family. My message to them both is clear... I choose my family

:28:43. > :28:53.over your division. APPLAUSE

:28:54. > :29:02.It looks as if the First Minister is determined to rerun the referendum

:29:03. > :29:08.of only three years ago. It is not a battle I want. After all the

:29:09. > :29:14.divisions of the last campaign, and we will not vote for it. But if the

:29:15. > :29:19.Nationalists think that by asking the question over and over again

:29:20. > :29:25.they will beat us into submission, then they need to think again. And

:29:26. > :29:30.by the way, it will take more than threatening to bring back Alex

:29:31. > :29:36.Salmond to make us change our mind, too. I will stand up for our United

:29:37. > :29:41.Kingdom family. We will lead the way on the kind of campaign for the

:29:42. > :29:47.United Kingdom that we want to see. We should set the terms.

:29:48. > :29:52.There is much talk about the economy. I am sure some businesses

:29:53. > :29:58.may benefit from independence. I have heard there is particular

:29:59. > :30:05.excitement at the prospect of an order is room at the flag factories

:30:06. > :30:09.of Falkirk and the face painters of Arbroath. I can tell you, they are

:30:10. > :30:13.absolutely over the moon at the prospect of another independence

:30:14. > :30:20.referendum. But we know the economic case for independence is weaker than

:30:21. > :30:28.even in 2014. So I will not dwell on that today. The new case for the

:30:29. > :30:33.United Kingdom is a positive, uplifting one that focuses on the

:30:34. > :30:37.ties that bind us rather than the differences that some would use to

:30:38. > :30:41.divide us. It is that emotional case, it is the liberal case for

:30:42. > :30:47.unity, the compassionate case, it goes to the heart of who we are.

:30:48. > :30:51.Britain is full of people who care. We together care about the

:30:52. > :30:58.environment, poverty at home and abroad, the sick the elderly, the

:30:59. > :31:04.young. Our country is jammed of people who want a better world. The

:31:05. > :31:11.Oxford committee for famine relief was a group of concerned citizens

:31:12. > :31:18.who first met in 1942 to relieve famine in Greece. You know what,

:31:19. > :31:24.today they are Oxfam. In the wake of the First World War one woman and

:31:25. > :31:32.her sister campaigned for children. In the early 20s they filled a ship

:31:33. > :31:39.with 600 tonnes of aid bound for Russia, to save the lives of 300,000

:31:40. > :31:48.children and more than 350,000 adults. Save the children now helps

:31:49. > :31:53.over 17 million children every year. Both charities, born in the heart of

:31:54. > :31:59.Britain, showing compassion to the world. British people with

:32:00. > :32:04.compassion and care, and digging into their pocket. We should

:32:05. > :32:08.celebrate our generosity and compassion, it is a mark of who we

:32:09. > :32:11.are. No Scottish Nationalists will tell me I should be ashamed of that.

:32:12. > :32:24.I am proud of who we are. APPLAUSE

:32:25. > :32:31.And that compassion has built some of the best public services too. It

:32:32. > :32:36.is why we built the best Health Service in the world. The second

:32:37. > :32:40.biggest aid budget in the world. The welfare state to help people in

:32:41. > :32:45.need. Public compassion has driven that state action. Of course, there

:32:46. > :32:50.are political differences within our country. But so there are in

:32:51. > :32:56.Scotland too. You just need to travel from Perth here to Dundee to

:32:57. > :33:00.see those differences. Think about this - there are ten times as many

:33:01. > :33:06.Remain voters in England as there are in Scotland. Think about this -

:33:07. > :33:13.the majority of people in England did not vote for the Conservatives.

:33:14. > :33:18.Just because some English people have repugnant views does not make

:33:19. > :33:23.the entirety of them repugnant. Just as some Scottish people have

:33:24. > :33:32.offensive opinions, does not make us all offensive either. Nigel Farage,

:33:33. > :33:40.that tweed clad xenophobe is not representative of all English

:33:41. > :33:44.people, just as Edward Coburn is not represent idea of all Scots. I

:33:45. > :33:52.admire the great historical figures of progress from all parts of

:33:53. > :33:57.Britain. Emlin ParkHurst on votes for women. William beverage,

:33:58. > :34:02.building the Welfare State, our United Kingdom is an uplifting,

:34:03. > :34:15.mutely beneficial partnership that we should cherish, not thrash.

:34:16. > :34:20.APPLAUSE So if we head into another

:34:21. > :34:26.referendum, the responsibility on liberals is great. We must stand up

:34:27. > :34:31.and be counted for our values. This is a Battle of Ideas, not of

:34:32. > :34:37.identities and flags. We must stand up for our family, whether in

:34:38. > :34:41.Britain or across Europe. We must make the positive, open

:34:42. > :34:43.internationalist case, tell our friends about how compassionate,

:34:44. > :34:49.tolerant and generous the United Kingdom is. Send a message of hope

:34:50. > :34:55.that things can be better still. We should be like Laura Muir, always

:34:56. > :34:59.willing to run another lap. We can turn back the tide of division. We

:35:00. > :35:04.can celebrate both our differences and the tie that is bind us. We can

:35:05. > :35:09.say no to independence and yes to partnership. We can once and for all

:35:10. > :35:13.put an end to the claim that if you do not believe in independence, you

:35:14. > :35:24.do not believe in Scotland. APPLAUSE

:35:25. > :35:31.So if our First Minister gambles with our country again, I can tell

:35:32. > :35:35.you now that the Liberal Democrats will campaign for Scotland's

:35:36. > :35:40.partnership with the United Kingdom. We will not just campaign with

:35:41. > :35:45.numbers on a spreadsheet, but with smiles in our hearts. I want all

:35:46. > :35:51.people who live in this country to rise up and say we stand with our

:35:52. > :35:55.neighbours. That we cherish the compassion of British people and we

:35:56. > :35:57.value our partnership. Our job is to turn back the tied of division.

:35:58. > :36:13.APPLAUSE The Conservatives have been gambling

:36:14. > :36:18.too. Their EU referendum gamble put their party before our country.

:36:19. > :36:22.Reckless on the economy. Risking our security. Threatening our

:36:23. > :36:29.environment. Diminishing our place in the world. Holding Donald Trump's

:36:30. > :36:35.tiny hand. All to unite a fractured party. More interested in reaching

:36:36. > :36:41.for the past than recognising the modern Britain we have become. This

:36:42. > :36:47.is the biggest change in our international posture in a

:36:48. > :36:53.generation. From partnership through global organisations, to a futile

:36:54. > :37:02.attempt to build our own power base in the world. Theresa May knows the

:37:03. > :37:07.price of Brexit. Ruth Davidson, she knows the cost, but they both charge

:37:08. > :37:14.towards the cliff at an ever faster rate. In the Budget, the Chancellor

:37:15. > :37:26.had to create a war chest to fight off the effects of Brexit. It's a

:37:27. > :37:31.colossal ?60 billion. On our own doorstep, a university has told us

:37:32. > :37:37.that they're cutting 100 jobs and say Brexit is one of the reasons.

:37:38. > :37:42.And the prices in the shops are on the rise. Energy prices are on the

:37:43. > :37:47.rise. Jobs are being lost. That's the hard cost of a Conservative

:37:48. > :37:52.Brexit. It is hitting us in our pockets and costing our country dear

:37:53. > :37:56.and we haven't even left the European Union. It turns out the

:37:57. > :38:01.Conservatives are building a wall and they're expecting us to pay for

:38:02. > :38:11.it. It's reckless and we will oppose it.

:38:12. > :38:18.APPLAUSE Now, of course, we must respect the

:38:19. > :38:22.result of the referendum. But political leaders have got a

:38:23. > :38:28.responsibility to lead. And leadership is what this country is

:38:29. > :38:37.missing at one of the most significant periods in modern

:38:38. > :38:41.political times. Labour has shown an astonishing level of indifference to

:38:42. > :38:49.the fate of our country. No challenge. No questions. Just

:38:50. > :38:56.compliance. They have turned the fine tradition of her imagine tee's

:38:57. > :39:00.loyal opposition to her imagine tee's obedient opposition. That's

:39:01. > :39:05.why it would only be right for the British people to take charge of the

:39:06. > :39:10.final say on whatever deal is agreed by the Conservative Government with

:39:11. > :39:15.the EU. A Brexit deal referendum is the right and democratic thing to

:39:16. > :39:22.do. When they look back at this time, our grandchildren will be

:39:23. > :39:26.astonished that they did not take our time and ask ourselves the

:39:27. > :39:36.question whether we really wanted this. When the Brexit deal proves to

:39:37. > :39:41.be so damaging, why would we not ask the British people a new question? I

:39:42. > :39:46.told this conference in the autumn that I will not give up on Europe

:39:47. > :39:55.and I won't. We can win the case. Public opinion can change. We saw it

:39:56. > :40:01.with the invasion of Iraq. From jeering our Charles Kennedy in the

:40:02. > :40:06.street at the start, people turned to oppose the Iraq war. Political

:40:07. > :40:09.leadership is sometimes about persuading people, not just

:40:10. > :40:17.repeating what the last focus group told you. That's followership, when

:40:18. > :40:21.the jobs are lost and the mortgages rise and the prices ib cease and the

:40:22. > :40:25.foreign investment declines and the cost becomes ever more apparent, the

:40:26. > :40:29.mood, the view, the opinion of the merit of Brexit will go into

:40:30. > :40:33.reverse. Our job, as Liberal Democrats, will be to be there, to

:40:34. > :40:37.be the gathering place, to give the leadership to win the cause, that's

:40:38. > :40:38.our purpose and that is what we will do.

:40:39. > :40:55.APPLAUSE The Conservatives have abandoned the

:40:56. > :41:01.internationalist posture. This country has built over generations.

:41:02. > :41:06.The Labour Party timidly accept that approach. The SNP was to compound

:41:07. > :41:12.the break-up of Europe with a break-up of the United Kingdom. And

:41:13. > :41:17.this week, we heard from Jim Sellers. He says he won't back

:41:18. > :41:25.independence if it means being in the European Union. He speaks for

:41:26. > :41:34.one in three independent supporters who also backed Brexit. Alex Salmond

:41:35. > :41:42.have been unusually coy on this subject. You haven't heard any

:41:43. > :41:51.senior nationalist say the only way to keep Scotland in the EU is to

:41:52. > :41:55.have independence. They used to say that all of the time. They did that,

:41:56. > :42:01.didn't they? Do you remember? They used to say it all the time. Now,

:42:02. > :42:06.they never do. They now say that their dissatisfaction with the UK

:42:07. > :42:13.Government transcends the issue of Europe. So the evidence is mounting.

:42:14. > :42:19.The nationalists are preparing a sell-out of Europe in a desperate

:42:20. > :42:23.bid to win independence. Some people have thought about whether perhaps

:42:24. > :42:30.Scottish independence is the best way to stay in the EU. But it's

:42:31. > :42:36.clear to me that if you trust the SNP on this then you are going to be

:42:37. > :42:41.disappointed. So let me tell you of the fundamental risk that

:42:42. > :42:44.independence now poses. It is to leave Scotland outside the United

:42:45. > :42:50.Kingdom, and outside the European Union. The worst of all worlds. What

:42:51. > :43:00.a disaster that would be. APPLAUSE

:43:01. > :43:05.I tell you, there is a better way. The best way for us to stay in the

:43:06. > :43:08.European Union is through the United Kingdom, with the economic

:43:09. > :43:12.consequences of Brexit becoming clear, people like John Major, Alan

:43:13. > :43:18.Johnson, Tony Blair, backing a re-think. Our victory in Richmond

:43:19. > :43:25.Park showing there is momentum in the UK for change. We have the

:43:26. > :43:28.nation's eyes upon us and we won. Even Bob Geldof campaigned in

:43:29. > :43:33.Richmond High Street with me! By the way, it was a good job he came on a

:43:34. > :43:38.Wednesday because I'm told he doesn't like Mondays!

:43:39. > :43:43.I knew you would love that one. You have to be of a certain age to

:43:44. > :43:49.understand that one! I noticed you all laughed. Pro-EU

:43:50. > :43:56.people should not fall for the nationalist trick. They should back

:43:57. > :44:00.the only pro EU party, the party that will never use Europe for

:44:01. > :44:05.narrow ends. The party that has always stood up for Europe. The

:44:06. > :44:15.Scottish Liberal Democrats. APPLAUSE

:44:16. > :44:24.It is the Liberal Democrats that speak for the majority of people in

:44:25. > :44:30.our country. A majority of people in Scotland voted for Scotland to

:44:31. > :44:34.remain in the United Kingdom. We stand with them. And a majority of

:44:35. > :44:38.people in Scotland voted for the United Kingdom to remain in the

:44:39. > :44:45.European Union. And we stand with them too. No one else stands with

:44:46. > :44:51.the majority of Scotland for the United Kingdom and for the European

:44:52. > :44:55.Union. Liberal Democrats do. And we will stand against the actions of

:44:56. > :45:00.the political fire raisers of our time. A majority of people in

:45:01. > :45:05.Scotland want to keep the United Kingdom, but the SNP want to burn it

:45:06. > :45:09.down. They do not speak for Scotland. And a majority of people

:45:10. > :45:12.in Scotland want to keep the European Union, but the

:45:13. > :45:17.Conservatives want to burn that down. They do not speak for

:45:18. > :45:22.Scotland. They are each lighting the match in response to the actions of

:45:23. > :45:26.the others, determined to start fires that threaten our economy,

:45:27. > :45:31.security, and our environment. Scotland has had enough of their

:45:32. > :45:41.fire raising. It is our job to put those fires out.

:45:42. > :45:47.APPLAUSE And it doesn't have to be like this.

:45:48. > :45:55.We can build a better future for the whole UK. Last week Kezia Dugdale

:45:56. > :46:02.made the case for federalism. Welcome Kez! It makes a change to

:46:03. > :46:07.see Labour fighting the battles of 2017, not 1983 or 1970 in Moscow in

:46:08. > :46:11.John McDonnell's case. LAUGHTER

:46:12. > :46:16.We have the opportunity to build something bigger. To grow the

:46:17. > :46:22.movement for a federal UK. It's federalism that we have been

:46:23. > :46:28.advocating for 100 years. In the last 20, we have seen the idea

:46:29. > :46:36.develop. Power is now shared around the UK more than ever before. We can

:46:37. > :46:41.do more. Federalism is the wrong term and viable future for the UK

:46:42. > :46:46.that saves us from the forces of perpetual division. It would move us

:46:47. > :46:52.on from the Punch and Judy show of Westminster versus the rest. So that

:46:53. > :46:55.is why I can tell you today that I have appointed Jeremy Purvis to lead

:46:56. > :46:59.a new group that will work with people from other parties and none

:47:00. > :47:05.to develop the case for federalism in the United Kingdom. More and more

:47:06. > :47:09.people from different parties and different parts of Britain are

:47:10. > :47:15.looking at federalism. We will be there to help bring them together.

:47:16. > :47:20.If you are tired of division, tired of history repeating and repeating

:47:21. > :47:26.and repeating, fed-up with the fires that destroy then it is the time to

:47:27. > :47:32.try something new. Federalism is the stable, secure and respectful future

:47:33. > :47:42.that we can bring. APPLAUSE

:47:43. > :47:48.And while the SNP and Conservatives are busy lighting fires, they ignore

:47:49. > :47:54.the need to get on with the day job. There is work to be done. Scottish

:47:55. > :48:03.education used to be one of the best in the world. It is now slipping

:48:04. > :48:08.down the international rankings. Reforms, they're chaotic and

:48:09. > :48:15.regressive. On mental health, we once had a world leading mental

:48:16. > :48:22.health strategy. But now we don't even have one anymore. The SNP have

:48:23. > :48:28.left it to rot. During the Budget talks with the SNP we discovered

:48:29. > :48:35.that they are much further behind on mental health than even we feared.

:48:36. > :48:42.The SNP reeled against the council tax for decades, describing it as

:48:43. > :48:49.evil and unfair. But now they have saved it from abolition. They

:48:50. > :48:53.ignored their own independent commission, forced through arbitrary

:48:54. > :49:00.increase and rocked the council tax in place for another generation. And

:49:01. > :49:06.then there is Keith Brown, our economy secretary. Not only is our

:49:07. > :49:11.economy lagging behind the rest of the UK, with growth slower,

:49:12. > :49:16.employment lower, productivity still behind, there was Amazon. He paid

:49:17. > :49:21.them millions of pounds in grants, but didn't bother to check if they

:49:22. > :49:29.paid the proper Living Wage. And then there was China. He got the

:49:30. > :49:35.First Minister, his boss, to sign an agreement worth, we were told, a

:49:36. > :49:40.whopping ?10 billion, but he didn't bother to check on their Human

:49:41. > :49:47.Rights record first. It was not good. One stands accused of

:49:48. > :49:54.corruption and abuse in Africa. And he didn't bother to check if the

:49:55. > :50:02.company had any money to spend, but it turns out they didn't, they run a

:50:03. > :50:05.pub in the Cotswolds! This is true. LAUGHTER

:50:06. > :50:10.No Living Wage, no Human Rights check, no money. . These people

:50:11. > :50:16.aspire to run an independent country, but they do not run a Human

:50:17. > :50:26.Rights check-in a china shop up the Amazon!

:50:27. > :50:31.APPLAUSE But it does not have to be like

:50:32. > :50:36.this. Liberal Democrats engage constructively with the Scottish

:50:37. > :50:41.Government to try to make improvements, big improvements, to

:50:42. > :50:46.its budget. Ours was a ?400 million package for our economy through

:50:47. > :50:50.investing in people. For mental health, with support for early

:50:51. > :50:56.intervention and in primary care the police and A departments. For

:50:57. > :51:00.investment in colleges, to bring back part-time courses especially

:51:01. > :51:05.for women and mature students. For a pupil premium in schools that has

:51:06. > :51:11.been proven to give poorer children the opportunity to be all they can

:51:12. > :51:17.be. For more cash into our police to help them recover from the botched

:51:18. > :51:22.SNP centralisation. This was a chance for the Scottish Parliament

:51:23. > :51:26.to use the new powers that we argued and campaigned for. This was a

:51:27. > :51:31.chance to deliver a positive programme of reform to make our

:51:32. > :51:36.country the best again. But this was a missed chance because the SNP just

:51:37. > :51:42.wouldn't do it because they had their eye on a very different prize.

:51:43. > :51:46.It's time to get on with the day job, to focus on our people, to make

:51:47. > :51:51.a difference for everyone. This is not the time to divide our country

:51:52. > :52:02.once again with yet another independence debate.

:52:03. > :52:07.APPLAUSE And there are six weeks until we

:52:08. > :52:13.have a chance to send a message on all of this. The council elections

:52:14. > :52:21.are a chance for us to show who we are. We have a message of hope, not

:52:22. > :52:25.division. A Liberal Democrat council elected council will be an advocate,

:52:26. > :52:31.not a cheerleader for independence. They will be an advocate for better

:52:32. > :52:35.mental health, for investment in education, for a stronger economy

:52:36. > :52:39.against a Conservative hard Brexit, for Scotland in the United Kingdom.

:52:40. > :52:43.And for an end to the council tax. That's a positive plan of action for

:52:44. > :52:54.every part of Scotland. APPLAUSE

:52:55. > :53:01.As you would expect, I've been knocking on doors and speaking with

:53:02. > :53:06.voters across the country. I have joined some of our excellent

:53:07. > :53:14.candidates who are leading the way. Carol Ford from Glasgow Trish

:53:15. > :53:19.Robertson, Clare Graham from Musselburgh, Rosie O'Neill, Lauren

:53:20. > :53:27.Jones, Kevin Lang, I'm not going to list them all, Ben Laurie, Chris

:53:28. > :53:34.Dickinson, Katrina Campbell, I have been on the doors with Alex and Liam

:53:35. > :53:38.and Mike who have been working hard at Holyrood and then getting out to

:53:39. > :53:44.support our local candidates in the evenings. First class. Dedicated

:53:45. > :53:47.advocates for their communities, all and everyone of them and I want

:53:48. > :54:00.everyone of you here to support them.

:54:01. > :54:07.APPLAUSE We have a great team. We need strong

:54:08. > :54:13.liberal voices for the challenges we all have ahead. The optimistic

:54:14. > :54:18.forces. The liberal case. The international posture. It needs

:54:19. > :54:23.standard bearers. As we face the forces of division, we have to ask

:54:24. > :54:30.ourselves who we are, and what we will do. The question that will be

:54:31. > :54:41.asked of us in years to come when people ask about this time is this -

:54:42. > :54:51.what did you do? When the world in 2016 and 2017 faced Brexit, Trump,

:54:52. > :54:56.Le Pen in France, Vilders in the Netherlands, what did you do? What

:54:57. > :55:01.did you do when our country of 300 years faced break-up? I don't want

:55:02. > :55:09.just to say that we mocked them for their terrible hair! I want to be

:55:10. > :55:15.able to say we stood strong more the international liberal answer the we

:55:16. > :55:23.stood with Justin through dough for refugees with a manual macron for

:55:24. > :55:28.social progress, for D# 6 and Mark Riter in the Netherlands for values

:55:29. > :55:32.and for the positive values for the hole of the UK free from the

:55:33. > :55:39.division of the SNP. We will be able to say we stood for a better, open,

:55:40. > :55:43.positive world, based on partnership, trust and generosity of

:55:44. > :55:49.spirit. What did we do? We did the liberal thing and we got back to

:55:50. > :56:03.winning again. Thank you. APPLAUSE

:56:04. > :56:10.Willie Rennie there receiving a standing ovation at the Lib Dem

:56:11. > :56:14.spring conference in Perth. He said the debate on the constitution is

:56:15. > :56:18.personal. It's about family, community, destiny. He said the

:56:19. > :56:23.economic case for independence was weaker than in 2014. He said the new

:56:24. > :56:27.case for the UK is positive and uplifting. He said a Brexit deal

:56:28. > :56:32.referendum is a right and democratic thing to do. A Scottish independence

:56:33. > :56:37.would leave Scotland out of the UK and the EU and he said he would

:56:38. > :56:41.stand up for the majority of Scotlanders saying that he stood up

:56:42. > :56:46.for the UK and the EU, federalism, the long-term future for the UK. He

:56:47. > :56:51.announced a cross-party group on federalism too. Professor John

:56:52. > :56:56.Curtis is still with me watching the pictures in the hall in Perth. John,

:56:57. > :57:00.just your initial reaction to Willie Rennie's speech? Well there, is the

:57:01. > :57:04.third conference speech that we have had of the Scottish party season and

:57:05. > :57:07.it is another conference speech where the issue of whether or not

:57:08. > :57:10.there should or shouldn't be a referendum has been central and

:57:11. > :57:16.indeed a speech which almost yet again seems to be written on the

:57:17. > :57:19.assumption that Nicola Sturgeon at some point in the not too distant

:57:20. > :57:26.future will be asking for a second independence referendum. In add van

:57:27. > :57:30.of today's speech we were told Mr Rennie would layout the emotional

:57:31. > :57:36.case for staying inside the EU. That case seemed to be basically a belief

:57:37. > :57:40.that the United Kingdom is actually a progressive, compassionate country

:57:41. > :57:43.in his point of view and that's reflected in his work in Oxfam and

:57:44. > :57:49.the National Health Service, etcetera. I'm not quite sure this

:57:50. > :57:53.will necessarily go down as a major contribution and a major original

:57:54. > :57:56.contribution to the case for the European Union, for Scotland

:57:57. > :58:01.remaining inside the UK. What was the rather more interesting part of

:58:02. > :58:05.the speech was the argument in which he suggested that actually although

:58:06. > :58:08.the reason why perhaps we might have a second independence referendum is

:58:09. > :58:13.because Scotland voted Remain inside the European Union. That actually

:58:14. > :58:16.perhaps the SNP will ditch that argument as if indeed the referendum

:58:17. > :58:21.is called because of an awareness that around one in three of those

:58:22. > :58:26.who voted yes in September 2014 actually voted to leave the European

:58:27. > :58:29.Union and are therefore trying to predicate the argument for

:58:30. > :58:33.independence as a means of keeping Scotland inside the European Union

:58:34. > :58:40.may provide divisive. That was interesting. I think a different

:58:41. > :58:44.line of attack on the SNP. In a sense a notice to the SNP if they

:58:45. > :58:47.try to do that, Willie Rennie will be reminding us why are we having

:58:48. > :58:51.this referendum to keep Scotland inside the European Union, why have

:58:52. > :58:53.we dropped it and the Liberal Democrats will keep on going on

:58:54. > :58:57.about it. That was the most interesting part of the speech. He

:58:58. > :59:01.is trying to do, as we suggested at the beginning of the programme, is

:59:02. > :59:06.to suggest it is only the Liberal Democrats who are the pro-European

:59:07. > :59:09.party. He wants to undermine the credentials of the SNP on that

:59:10. > :59:13.count. John, thank you very much. Well, let's head back to the

:59:14. > :59:19.conference hall in Perth for live reaction now. Brian Taylor is

:59:20. > :59:33.standing by with some guests. Brian. Two SNPs. What was playing the Who

:59:34. > :59:37.and Teenage Wasteland? It was a barn storming speech. Let's talk about

:59:38. > :59:40.the European referendum. You want a further one on the Brexit terms and

:59:41. > :59:43.he was trying to suggest that the SNP cannot be trusted on European

:59:44. > :59:50.Union membership and the best way to keep Scotland in the EU is through

:59:51. > :59:54.the UK, really? Article 50 is about to be triggered we've leaving as the

:59:55. > :59:59.UK surely? We are the only party who stands in the space occupied by the

:00:00. > :00:03.majority of the Scottish people who voted to reject independence in 14

:00:04. > :00:09.and voted to remain in the last referendum in 2016 and the policies

:00:10. > :00:12.we've under scored with that at this weekend, underpin us as the main

:00:13. > :00:17.party. Those people should gather to, who want to stay in the UK and

:00:18. > :00:20.want to stay in the EU. I get it, you corrale these two things

:00:21. > :00:24.together, but it's stretching it a bit, is it not, to say the way for

:00:25. > :00:27.Scotland to stay in the EU is to stay attached to a United Kingdom

:00:28. > :00:30.that's on the verge of leaving the European Union, we're about to

:00:31. > :00:36.trigger the departure signal, surely? The argument Willie was

:00:37. > :00:42.getting across, it is evident from the remarks from Jim Sellers and

:00:43. > :00:46.others and indeed the way the vote panned out amongst yes supporters,

:00:47. > :00:49.the support for Brexit, for Leave was significant and a party that's

:00:50. > :00:54.been hell bent on independence at any cost over the last number of

:00:55. > :00:58.years cannot be trusted. I think your argument for remaining part of

:00:59. > :01:00.the European Union, where you're collaborating with your partners,

:01:01. > :01:05.where you give-and-take is undermined, if at the same time

:01:06. > :01:10.you're making exactly the reverse argument within the context of the

:01:11. > :01:15.union you're currently a member of. Jim Sellers doesn't speak for the

:01:16. > :01:19.SNP? He speaks for a large part of the yes in the nationalist movement

:01:20. > :01:23.and that hasn't been discounted. The point Willie was making. We have

:01:24. > :01:27.heard little from Alex Salmond or from Mike Russell. Two people who

:01:28. > :01:31.have never been shy of grabbing any available mic at the first

:01:32. > :01:35.opportunity to give the Scots the been fit of their wisdom. Clarify

:01:36. > :01:41.things, Alec. We have had others say, you guys as a party would vote

:01:42. > :01:44.against any means of bringing about a second independence referendum, a

:01:45. > :01:48.section 30 transfer? We stood for election last year on a mandate that

:01:49. > :01:51.was clear to oppose a second referendum on independence. And we

:01:52. > :01:56.have our instructions from the electorate so we will act

:01:57. > :02:00.accordingly and vote consistently to block a second referendum. Some

:02:01. > :02:03.would say you got your instruckses from the electorate on 23rd June

:02:04. > :02:09.which was to get out of the yurp, but you still want to have another

:02:10. > :02:13.referendum on that, on the terms, that's hypocrisy? Nearly 50% of the

:02:14. > :02:18.people of Great Britain would love to stay part of the EU, yet we are

:02:19. > :02:22.the only political party that stands with them in that firm mament, it is

:02:23. > :02:27.in the finest traditions of democracy... You lost on 23rd June.

:02:28. > :02:31.You lost. You lost the argument. You lost the vote. The SNP lost the

:02:32. > :02:34.independence referendum in 2014 yet you would never expect... You're

:02:35. > :02:40.trying to stop them from having a say. You want a second referendum on

:02:41. > :02:44.Europe? I think it is acceptable, except on the Brexit referendum in

:02:45. > :02:49.June last year, there was a vote to leave. I don't think anybody would

:02:50. > :02:52.dispute the fact that point of departure has been consented to by

:02:53. > :02:55.the British public. What they have not signed up to is the hard Brexit,

:02:56. > :02:58.the mandate that Theresa May and her colleagues seem to be hell bent on

:02:59. > :03:02.taking forward and I think it is only right that the British people

:03:03. > :03:08.have an opportunity to express their views on what that point of

:03:09. > :03:16.destination is. Is the difference in 2014 we had a White Paper, the White

:03:17. > :03:20.Paper you derided... I have met a few of the authors of that White

:03:21. > :03:24.Paper. Setting out proposals for independence and in 2016, there was

:03:25. > :03:28.no such thing. It was just a Brexit? The concept of what Brexit meant was

:03:29. > :03:32.very different depending on which leader of the Leave campaign you

:03:33. > :03:36.listened to. Subsequently some of the key messages from the Leave

:03:37. > :03:41.campaign about remaining part of the single market, not leaving the

:03:42. > :03:45.customs union, the ?350 million for our NHS, all of those have been cast

:03:46. > :03:50.aside. That calls into question the mandate. It makes it imperative that

:03:51. > :03:53.the British public have an opportunity to express their opinion

:03:54. > :03:57.on the detail of what it is that Theresa May and her colleagues

:03:58. > :04:01.finally negotiate. If they express that opinion, could it be in your

:04:02. > :04:04.view that Britain remains in the European Union rather than leaving

:04:05. > :04:15.as was suggested from 23rd June? Sepp

:04:16. > :04:21.That ?350 million to the NHS, for example, evaporated. When we

:04:22. > :04:26.understand what had Brexit means, the isolation and economic collapse,

:04:27. > :04:29.you will see that needle of public opinion move more in the favour of

:04:30. > :04:33.the decision and our party is taking at this conference to stand up for

:04:34. > :04:38.those who have an internationalist perspective on one based in the EU.

:04:39. > :04:42.Do you think there will be, regardless of your opposition, do

:04:43. > :04:48.you think there will be another independence referendum, perhaps

:04:49. > :04:51.next year? I think ever since the EU referendum Nicola Sturgeon has been

:04:52. > :04:56.using that as a Trojan horse to get another referendum and a crack at

:04:57. > :04:59.the whip. She will look at back at this, and should've won a look back

:05:00. > :05:03.in 20 years and they, what would've happened if I just pulled the

:05:04. > :05:10.trigger? There is almost certainty behind a second referendum. I think

:05:11. > :05:13.she's been dropping ever more obvious hints about her intentions.

:05:14. > :05:17.I think with the support of the Green Party in the Scottish

:05:18. > :05:22.Parliament she see a pathway towards it. I think however some of the

:05:23. > :05:26.apprehension she has shown up until now, is the fact she knows what the

:05:27. > :05:28.polls suggest, that there is an overwhelming desire to go down this

:05:29. > :05:33.route again, to open up the divisions that frankly, whatever the

:05:34. > :05:37.energising effect of that last referendum, the way it divided

:05:38. > :05:42.families, communities, workplaces, is not something many people want to

:05:43. > :05:47.see again. Would you fight it? Another better together? It looks

:05:48. > :05:52.like it wouldn't be. That is an interesting aspect. It took up the

:05:53. > :05:57.bulk of Willie Rennie's speech. The economic argument for independence

:05:58. > :06:02.is dead, is owned by Andrew Wilson and some of the White Paper itself.

:06:03. > :06:09.I think we see oil prices at the moment... He would not say he has

:06:10. > :06:13.disowned the argument. I think the economic argument now is not strong.

:06:14. > :06:17.Would you work with Labour and Tories? We need to find a more

:06:18. > :06:23.positive way of putting the argument, finding the things that

:06:24. > :06:26.unite us. Dum Project Fear and go for project positive? There needs to

:06:27. > :06:30.be a more positive argument. If you look at the Brexit campaign, by

:06:31. > :06:36.sticking to the dry figures there's an fear you end up losing. Could it

:06:37. > :06:40.be a joined up campaign with the three principal pro-European

:06:41. > :06:44.parties? One of the key principles of liberalism is pluralism. We

:06:45. > :06:48.believe we won't turn face against other parties, or groups who want to

:06:49. > :06:51.work together to make a positive case for us remaining in the United

:06:52. > :06:56.Kingdom. I think that is the only way we can take down that formidable

:06:57. > :06:59.Nationalists campaign that we saw in 2014, that has been gearing up for

:07:00. > :07:06.this for the last two years. They've been waiting for the go order. We

:07:07. > :07:09.ignore those other like-minded groups at our peril. Thank you for

:07:10. > :07:14.joining us. Particular grateful to you as you came here instead of

:07:15. > :07:18.watching the rugby. That is dedication! STUDIO: All very

:07:19. > :07:22.dedicated, thank you for that. Delegates at have also condemned the

:07:23. > :07:26.Chancellor's budget on Wednesday as fundamentally unfair. They accused

:07:27. > :07:29.the UK Government of piling the greater burden on people who, as

:07:30. > :07:37.they put it, are feeling the Brexit squeeze. Lord Purvis said it was

:07:38. > :07:41.affirmation of the cost of Brexit on our pockets.

:07:42. > :07:44.With the context of Brexit, the hardest of hardest of Brexit is the

:07:45. > :07:49.government wished to bring, what is the budget we see within that

:07:50. > :07:52.context? Well, the sound constitutional reasons the House of

:07:53. > :07:56.Lords will not be voting on this budget but we will have a voice. I

:07:57. > :08:00.will certainly have a voice. That voice will be highlighting that we

:08:01. > :08:04.believe it is unfair for very many thousands of people in Scotland

:08:05. > :08:08.working very hard who are self-employed. But it does say

:08:09. > :08:13.something, does it not conference, when perhaps the least popular

:08:14. > :08:17.Chancellor in living memory, Norman Lamont, criticise the budget and the

:08:18. > :08:21.Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson supported it? What does that mean?

:08:22. > :08:25.That means that it highlights perhaps more than anything else the

:08:26. > :08:30.difference between the conservative approach to budgets and finance and

:08:31. > :08:35.ours. We have budget fairness that is the hallmark of our approach.

:08:36. > :08:40.Yes, investing in public services, but making sure that those who had

:08:41. > :08:44.the broadest shoulders carry most of the burden. With Ruth Davidson it is

:08:45. > :08:48.the other way round. She had the audacity even this week, to say that

:08:49. > :08:53.any increase budget for the Scottish parliament should be used as tax

:08:54. > :08:58.breaks for the wealthiest. We will be campaigning in Price and across

:08:59. > :09:02.the UK as a combined Liberal Democrat party against these

:09:03. > :09:05.changes. I am self-employed and these tax

:09:06. > :09:09.changes affect me directly. I want to say first I don't necessarily

:09:10. > :09:16.object to paying higher taxes. We should increase taxes, what I

:09:17. > :09:19.disagree with is the Chancellor's assertions of employed people now

:09:20. > :09:23.apparently have the same benefits as employed people. Which made no sense

:09:24. > :09:27.to me when I heard it, it made no sense to me the third, fourth, fifth

:09:28. > :09:31.or sixth time I read it. I would like to give you some examples of

:09:32. > :09:34.how self employed people don't have the same benefits. I don't have the

:09:35. > :09:39.right to an employer pension, which won't be compulsory in the next

:09:40. > :09:42.couple of years. I don't have any entitlement to holiday pay or sixth

:09:43. > :09:48.leave or anything like that. I don't have the ability to access a union

:09:49. > :09:51.if I want. All of these things are things I have sacrificed in order to

:09:52. > :09:55.work in the industry I've chosen. That is my choice, and I'm willing

:09:56. > :10:00.to accept the consequences of that, but to say I get the same deals as

:10:01. > :10:04.employed people is not true. Public services like education and

:10:05. > :10:13.mental health desperately starved of funds, the Chancellor provide is no

:10:14. > :10:20.money to invest in these services that are desperately needed.

:10:21. > :10:25.Instead, what do we have? We have ?60 billion, a massive sum, ?60

:10:26. > :10:29.billion as a contingency fund for Brexit. That is what the Chancellor

:10:30. > :10:33.thinks Brexit is going to cost the country. I don't remember the leaves

:10:34. > :10:38.campaign putting that up on their buses, Vote Leave and it will cost

:10:39. > :10:43.you ?60 billion. That's just one of the many misrepresentations of the

:10:44. > :10:48.Leave campaign. And the one thing that people do remember about the

:10:49. > :10:51.budget was that national insurance increased for the self-employed. A

:10:52. > :10:56.blatant breach of the manifesto pledge. Remember the Tory

:10:57. > :11:01.manifesto... David Cameron and George Osborne proudly proclaiming

:11:02. > :11:09.no increases of income tax, VAT on national insurance. No mention of

:11:10. > :11:14.any small print, a blatant breach of a manifesto pledge. Now we have a

:11:15. > :11:18.party know full well that damage breaking a manifesto pledge can cost

:11:19. > :11:21.you. So let's make it perfectly clear that the Tories have broken a

:11:22. > :11:26.manifesto pledge on the country should not forgive them for it. We

:11:27. > :11:34.already have the lowest population tax rate in the G20, but bear in

:11:35. > :11:40.mind a company actually has to pay tax before this kicks in. We need a

:11:41. > :11:49.progressive, simplified tax system. Arguably national insurance should

:11:50. > :11:53.be linked to PAYE. These lines are being blurred. Rather than shifting

:11:54. > :11:56.the limited amount of money around, let's have a party that leads from

:11:57. > :12:01.the front in terms of progressive tax policy across the board.

:12:02. > :12:06.One of our strongest selling point is local economy. It something we

:12:07. > :12:11.need to invest in but we are aware, as two local authorities, there is a

:12:12. > :12:14.brain train. Because of the lack of infrastructure investment, lack of

:12:15. > :12:16.broadband or transport or opportunities for our younger

:12:17. > :12:23.people, our creative industries are dying. This is not going to help. I

:12:24. > :12:26.can't believe the Conservatives can be so blind sighted in not

:12:27. > :12:30.representing our communities well, particularly where we have great

:12:31. > :12:34.talent coming out the Scottish Borders and elsewhere in Scotland in

:12:35. > :12:37.creative industries and other areas that could support real

:12:38. > :12:40.entrepreneurial spirit. Conservatives yet again, you have

:12:41. > :12:44.let the UK down, you have let Scotland down, you have let -- let

:12:45. > :12:49.the Liberal Democrats lead the way. APPLAUSE

:12:50. > :12:54.Some of the applause at the end of the budget debate at the Lib Dem

:12:55. > :12:58.conference. Brian is back now with some guests. He has got hold of some

:12:59. > :13:06.delegates. Indeed so. Thank you. You introduced

:13:07. > :13:10.Willie Rennie. Presumably you liked the speech? Yes, yes, I thought it

:13:11. > :13:20.was fantastic. It really got across the message, they EU appeal, the

:13:21. > :13:24.emotions that people feel, people feeling the possibility of a second

:13:25. > :13:31.independence referendum is dividing them from their families. Instead of

:13:32. > :13:35.attacking he was trying to make this passionate case for the union. That

:13:36. > :13:39.struck me as a bit different. We've heard it before perhaps but a bit

:13:40. > :13:42.different. This is important, it is ultimately about people's lives. The

:13:43. > :13:49.same as Brexit. People's families are being torn apart and it's just,

:13:50. > :13:56.it's not acceptable that we don't consider the human aspect of it all.

:13:57. > :14:00.Chris, you got a name check so presumably you are very happy?

:14:01. > :14:05.Absolutely, delighted. It comes down to the hard work local council

:14:06. > :14:08.candidates are doing in the campaign to identify issues in their local

:14:09. > :14:11.communities and be local champions. Holding the government to account on

:14:12. > :14:16.so many of their failings. You didn't get a name check and you

:14:17. > :14:20.didn't introduce him, but we can count your one of the tribe he

:14:21. > :14:25.wanted out there, is that right? What did you make of the speech? Are

:14:26. > :14:32.far too long the SNP have tried to claim heart means independence. What

:14:33. > :14:36.Willie did today is saying heart is part of us being proud of our

:14:37. > :14:40.country, part of the UK, part of the EU, we are the only party doing

:14:41. > :14:44.that. It's uplifting, it's a message of hope. We need to deny what the

:14:45. > :14:47.SNP is saying is the truth because it's not. He did say that and said

:14:48. > :14:51.it very strongly, said that the majority position in Scotland.

:14:52. > :14:56.That's one job to translate from that into support on the doorsteps.

:14:57. > :15:00.Not just a council elections but generally. You have struggled in the

:15:01. > :15:05.last few elections at Westminster and Holyrood. Yes, but in the last

:15:06. > :15:12.year we have won 31 council by-elections. Won Richmond, got

:15:13. > :15:16.close in Whitby and close in Copeland. People don't want a second

:15:17. > :15:20.referendum on independence and also the upset people felt in England

:15:21. > :15:25.with Brexit is what we experienced in Scotland. You said you don't want

:15:26. > :15:29.a second referendum on independence but Willie Rennie's speech was

:15:30. > :15:33.predicated on the fact it looks like it will happen. We don't want one

:15:34. > :15:37.and we feel we are stronger together as part of the United Kingdom as a

:15:38. > :15:41.family and into our European allies. We need to be bringing the walls

:15:42. > :15:45.down, not putting artificial barriers up. We live in the 21st

:15:46. > :15:48.century, in a global society, where the world is becoming smaller.

:15:49. > :15:53.Therefore putting artificial barriers up really doesn't, in terms

:15:54. > :15:58.of supporting humanity, we need to be outward looking. Unless you are

:15:59. > :16:06.to have a world government, and you would probably advocate one, you

:16:07. > :16:09.have to have a government somewhere. And some would say the Scottish

:16:10. > :16:15.Government should gain full powers they were described as normal

:16:16. > :16:19.situation. The United Kingdom needs a federal structure, which we are

:16:20. > :16:23.working towards. The commission is already out there. As you had in the

:16:24. > :16:28.speech today, for a federal United Kingdom, where we can make all the

:16:29. > :16:34.parties in the United Kingdom mark fairly represented. How would you do

:16:35. > :16:37.it? That's to be decided by England. Come on, you put forward federalism,

:16:38. > :16:41.you have to have a vague idea of what it is. We do. We have

:16:42. > :16:45.parliament in Scotland, we helped to set that up and we helped the

:16:46. > :16:48.Parliament in Wales. We have an assembly Northern Ireland. We need

:16:49. > :16:51.our English counterparts to play their part and define how they would

:16:52. > :16:57.like. Scottish parliament was defined by the Scottish people and

:16:58. > :17:02.Scottish in Scotland. We need our England English colleagues to do the

:17:03. > :17:06.same. I put to other representatives earlier on the programme here, you

:17:07. > :17:10.want a second referendum on the terms of Brexit. I understand the

:17:11. > :17:14.argument is different from the principle, but it does sound a bit

:17:15. > :17:18.like having another go because you didn't like the out come the first

:17:19. > :17:23.time round. It sounds like trying to overturn the verdict from June 23.

:17:24. > :17:27.Here we have to give credit to the SNP because they gave us a White

:17:28. > :17:31.Paper before the independence referendum. A bit different. Yes, we

:17:32. > :17:33.didn't have that for the EU referendum. People didn't

:17:34. > :17:39.essentially know what they were voting for. You were voting in or

:17:40. > :17:43.out of the European Union and they voted out. You're trying to reverse

:17:44. > :17:47.that, isn't that anti-democratic? We're not trying to reverse it at

:17:48. > :17:52.all, we're trying to find out what exactly it is people mean by that.

:17:53. > :17:55.In and out, that's so black and white. The issue is so much more

:17:56. > :18:00.complicated. Parliamentarians standing where you are now said it

:18:01. > :18:04.could be that if you vote against the terms, the alternative is we

:18:05. > :18:09.stay in the European Union. In other words you would be reversing June 23

:18:10. > :18:14.if people change their mind. I think the point is it's not as that would

:18:15. > :18:17.be asked reversing it, the people would be reversing it. What is

:18:18. > :18:24.really frustrating when Tory MPs go on about the will of the people, as

:18:25. > :18:31.if those who wanted to remain aren't people as well. This is about

:18:32. > :18:33.saying, OK... But you hold a referendum, an election, some person

:18:34. > :18:38.gets more votes than the other one, the person that gets more votes

:18:39. > :18:42.wins. Then you can reverse it again in four years. I think the point

:18:43. > :18:46.about the independence referendum is we didn't know what we were voting

:18:47. > :18:51.for. There wasn't enough detail. We had two years in Scotland, three

:18:52. > :18:55.months is not enough. Is in a bit cheeky to be castigating the SNP for

:18:56. > :18:58.having a second referendum on independence when you want a second

:18:59. > :19:03.referendum on the European Union? Some might say that is hypocrisy in

:19:04. > :19:06.the extreme. Not at all. We had some of the detail in the independence

:19:07. > :19:10.referendum about the kind of Scotland they envisioned that we

:19:11. > :19:12.rejected it wholeheartedly to say there wasn't an economic argument or

:19:13. > :19:17.it wasn't favourable for Scotland. With Brexit there was none of that

:19:18. > :19:20.detail. We're now going to a hypothetical negotiating table with

:19:21. > :19:25.terms that nobody in the United Kingdom had prior to that. Take the

:19:26. > :19:29.?250 million put on the side of the busts. Where is that pledge now?

:19:30. > :19:34.Nonexistent, under the carpet. That is the difference. That's what we

:19:35. > :19:37.are calling for, to know what the terms of our EU engagement would be

:19:38. > :19:42.and then the people can make that decision. Let me ask you each in

:19:43. > :19:47.turn, do you think there will be a second referendum on independence

:19:48. > :19:53.and if so when? At this point I think it does look likely. I can't

:19:54. > :19:58.say when, but we will fight to not have that happen, because at this

:19:59. > :20:03.point... Fight independently or with Labour and the Conservatives? At

:20:04. > :20:11.this point I would say no, but I can't be sure. If and when? It's

:20:12. > :20:15.possible, it will be in two years, five years or ten years. That seems

:20:16. > :20:19.to be what the SNP want to do. But we as a political party are saying

:20:20. > :20:25.no to an independence referendum and will stand, federalism platform. I

:20:26. > :20:28.think we are stuck with it, Nicola is determined to drag us back to

:20:29. > :20:33.that division. I suspect it will happen. She talked about this

:20:34. > :20:36.common-sense point of autumn 2018. I think it's outrageous she says

:20:37. > :20:40.common sense when she wants it. Be later than that. The Tories are

:20:41. > :20:45.saying not before the Brexit terms. I'm against her term of common sense

:20:46. > :20:51.being another referendum. The point is whenever it happens, we are the

:20:52. > :20:55.ones leading the fight. We are the clear ones, with a clear position on

:20:56. > :21:00.the EU and the UK. Thank you all three very much indeed for joining

:21:01. > :21:03.me here at the conference in Perth. Back to the studio.

:21:04. > :21:07.Thank you for all your efforts this afternoon at the conference. No

:21:08. > :21:11.delegates at the conference have backed the decriminalisation of drug

:21:12. > :21:14.possession for personal use. During the debate yesterday they also

:21:15. > :21:18.called on the Scottish Government to support safe injection facilities

:21:19. > :21:27.for heroin users wherever they are needed.

:21:28. > :21:33.One last -- at long last safe injection sites are being considered

:21:34. > :21:40.but we have to consider safety measures. They are using street

:21:41. > :21:44.heroin. Problematic drug users are also the most impoverished group in

:21:45. > :21:49.society. Safe injection sites don't alleviate this poverty. The users

:21:50. > :21:52.still need to find that ?100 from somewhere. We don't have to make

:21:53. > :21:57.them find that money, if we just provided the heroin in the clinic,

:21:58. > :22:00.the user can stop breaking the law, start thinking about jobs, family

:22:01. > :22:04.and housing. In all the studies done in many countries now, heroin is

:22:05. > :22:07.more effective and more cost-effective than methadone are

:22:08. > :22:11.helping people get their lives back on track. If you can't relate to the

:22:12. > :22:17.problematic drug user, then maybe you can relate to their family, as I

:22:18. > :22:22.do. They finally found the right drug for my brother's mental illness

:22:23. > :22:25.and I got my brother back. There are over 60,000 problem drug users in

:22:26. > :22:28.Scotland but tens of thousands of families facing the dilemma no

:22:29. > :22:38.family should face. Do you hold your loved ones close or do you push them

:22:39. > :22:42.away and live a life, a half life in constant dread of the knock on the

:22:43. > :22:47.door from the policeman telling you it finally got them.

:22:48. > :22:51.The quality of drugs finally going into the public is not of a

:22:52. > :22:57.sufficient safe quantity level that we can allow into clubs. The effect

:22:58. > :23:01.of somebody convulsing in front of you is damaging to the members of

:23:02. > :23:06.staff, to all of those who are trying to use the entertainment

:23:07. > :23:11.venue, to all of those around them. Particularly I draw your attention

:23:12. > :23:16.to the line, local authorities to make licensing decisions based on

:23:17. > :23:19.venues' efforts to keep their customers safe, rather than efforts

:23:20. > :23:23.to assist police in enforcing drug laws.

:23:24. > :23:28.If that were to say in concert with or alongside, I could support it.

:23:29. > :23:32.But where it said rather than, I simply cannot support it. We must

:23:33. > :23:37.work with all the intelligence, all the support we can, to make it

:23:38. > :23:42.safer, to make people safer, to make the event, live music, a safer place

:23:43. > :23:45.to be. There was a patient of mine who was

:23:46. > :23:49.a single mother and came in with bruising all over her face. It

:23:50. > :23:54.brought home to me the impact of what was happening. She'd been up by

:23:55. > :24:02.a dealer for not paying for her heroin. Decriminalising possession

:24:03. > :24:05.is not the same as legalising. The controlled availability of heroin on

:24:06. > :24:12.the NHS would reduce the power of dealers, which should be vigorously

:24:13. > :24:16.pursued. We need to treat heroin addiction as an illness and not as a

:24:17. > :24:21.crime. I worry that the media are more

:24:22. > :24:25.likely to report on our attitude to drugs in general, and this motion in

:24:26. > :24:30.particular, rather than what I see as the much more crucial motions

:24:31. > :24:35.which we are tackling at this conference. Of course I recognise

:24:36. > :24:39.the drugs problem that we have and the enormous human and financial

:24:40. > :24:45.burden and cost which they impose upon families, on society and the

:24:46. > :24:50.country. We do have a policy on drugs, which includes prevention and

:24:51. > :24:55.treatment centres. They do need more support. That's already a Lib Dem

:24:56. > :25:02.policy. So I perhaps ask you that we vote against this motion and leave

:25:03. > :25:05.our current Lib Dem policies as they are at the moment.

:25:06. > :25:11.We provide support for those who suffer addiction of tobacco and

:25:12. > :25:16.alcohol but not for harder drugs. There is no autonomy where there is

:25:17. > :25:19.addiction, at least in a system of supervision there is someone that

:25:20. > :25:24.knows that you are going to come in every week for that drug. If you

:25:25. > :25:29.push them out of that system, if you push them to go to the streets and

:25:30. > :25:31.take any cocktail of drugs, then there is not someone there who is

:25:32. > :25:36.going to expect you there the next week. So even if you fall out of the

:25:37. > :25:40.cycle, there is someone that knows you should be there and someone can

:25:41. > :25:46.be flagged when that doesn't happen. That was a look at the drugs debate

:25:47. > :25:49.yesterday at the conference. Now, just a final thought from Professor

:25:50. > :25:53.John Curtis as we head towards the end of our coverage. John, just as

:25:54. > :25:57.we touched on at the very beginning of the programme, the Lib Dems

:25:58. > :26:02.facing their next big electoral test, local government election in

:26:03. > :26:06.May. How might they perform in Scotland?

:26:07. > :26:10.If you have been listening very closely to the coverage of this

:26:11. > :26:14.conference, you may have heard a lot about Colorado. That's not a

:26:15. > :26:18.reference to the seminal battle in the history of this nation but a

:26:19. > :26:21.by-election that took place a few weeks ago which the Lib Dems won and

:26:22. > :26:27.they took a seat from the SNP. They want to convince us this is enough

:26:28. > :26:30.evidence of a significant rise of their support in Scotland. I'm

:26:31. > :26:37.afraid the figures don't quite back that claim. Lib Dem vote with 70% of

:26:38. > :26:40.the first preference vote, up three points from five points previously

:26:41. > :26:45.thought why did they win the Seacrest about we have pressure

:26:46. > :26:51.control voting in elections in Scotland and lots of conservatives

:26:52. > :26:55.an independent voters gave them at first preference. More broadly, if

:26:56. > :26:57.you look at Liberal Democrat performance in local government

:26:58. > :27:06.by-elections in Scotland since May of last year, on average, the share

:27:07. > :27:12.of the first preference vote is up by just 2%. Given they only got six

:27:13. > :27:16.or 7% back in 2015, in 2012, this frankly isn't good enough. It

:27:17. > :27:20.contrasts sharply with the performance of the party in local

:27:21. > :27:24.government by-elections south of the border. Since September of last

:27:25. > :27:28.year, an average where the Liberal Democrats have fought the war that

:27:29. > :27:33.they've fought back in 2015-16, their vote has been up on average 14

:27:34. > :27:37.points. It's been very varied. Some places with spectacular Lib Dem

:27:38. > :27:41.victories, elsewhere they haven't made much progress at all. It is the

:27:42. > :27:48.semblance south of the border at least, in certain circumstances,

:27:49. > :27:51.where there is a local issue to exploit, voters have begun to forget

:27:52. > :27:53.coalition and tuition fees and everything they didn't like about

:27:54. > :27:58.the coalition and the party is perhaps regaining its role as the

:27:59. > :28:01.party of protest. The truth is, north of the border neither in the

:28:02. > :28:05.opinion polls or local government by-elections is there evidence of

:28:06. > :28:10.that happening. The truth is the Liberal Democrats could discover on

:28:11. > :28:12.the 5th of May that in so far as recreating their local government

:28:13. > :28:18.base in Scotland is concerned, they have made much progress at all.

:28:19. > :28:22.Given that the government base has always been a crucial foundation. If

:28:23. > :28:26.that is what happens, it could be bad news for the party indeed. Thank

:28:27. > :28:30.you very much for that and for being with us for the duration of the

:28:31. > :28:33.programme. The next week for the SNP conference.

:28:34. > :28:40.That is the end of our live coverage. More on the Lib Dems on,

:28:41. > :28:43.'s Sunday politics Scotland. The UK shows starts at 11 on BBC One

:28:44. > :28:47.Scotland. Now, from the team at the

:28:48. > :28:51.conference, and from all of us here in the studio, thank you very much

:28:52. > :28:56.for being with us. Do enjoy the rest of the afternoon. Bye-bye for now.