Scottish National Party

:00:20. > :00:24.A very warm welcome to live coverage of the SNP's autumn

:00:24. > :00:28.conference. The Eden Court Theatre is filling up for Party Leader Alex

:00:28. > :00:33.Salmond's speech. The nationalists are in fine fettle after their

:00:33. > :00:36.historic Holyrood wind. Alex Salmond has a tough task ahead as

:00:36. > :00:44.he tries to convince the rest of the country about independence. We

:00:44. > :00:48.will bring you his speech in half- an-hour.

:00:48. > :00:54.I am here in Inverness. The theatre is packed. They are using all the

:00:54. > :01:00.breakout rooms. Some 2,000 delegates and visitors are here.

:01:00. > :01:05.They particularly want to hear Alex Salmond's speech.

:01:05. > :01:09.Or from Brian later. That spectacular win in May allowed the

:01:09. > :01:13.SNP to move from minority to majority government, paving the way

:01:13. > :01:17.for an independence referendum. A difficult fight lies ahead and they

:01:17. > :01:27.have difficulties on the policy front, too. Alex Salmond has been

:01:27. > :01:29.

:01:29. > :01:35.buffeted by a opposition to his programme.

:01:35. > :01:39.Infection light -- election Nitin May. At schools and sports centres,

:01:39. > :01:44.the electorate delivered an overall SNP majority for the first time

:01:44. > :01:47.since devolution. It was a winner that changed the way that politics

:01:47. > :01:51.were done in Holyrood, something Alex Salmond was aware of when he

:01:51. > :01:57.delivered his victory speech. Although the SNP have a majority of

:01:57. > :02:02.the seats, we do not have a monopoly. The SNP's meeting here in

:02:02. > :02:07.Inverness for its first conference since the election win. There is no

:02:07. > :02:10.doubt that the two big stories are likely to be public spending cuts

:02:10. > :02:15.and the independence referendum. The Scottish Government is going to

:02:15. > :02:25.deal with the thing that Harold Macmillan feared the most - events,

:02:25. > :02:28.

:02:28. > :02:32.dear boy, events. A Bill is proposed to deal with sectarianism.

:02:32. > :02:40.The government backed down on its rush to pass the Lords as it stood

:02:40. > :02:45.accused of failing to listen to church and supporters' groups.

:02:45. > :02:49.Labour, Tories and Lib Dem members refused to support the Lib Dem --

:02:49. > :02:52.the legislation. You can either be part of the problem or part of the

:02:52. > :02:56.solution. If hate crime has polarised things

:02:56. > :03:00.outside the SNP, does the issue of gay marriage have their potential

:03:00. > :03:05.to do the same inside it? The party is keen on introducing gay marriage,

:03:05. > :03:09.but John Mason's remarks that nobody should be forced to approve

:03:09. > :03:13.of it sparked a row, with some of his colleagues accusing him of

:03:13. > :03:17.encouraging discrimination. Ultimately, the SNP should overcome

:03:17. > :03:22.these issues with its overall majority. But it it -- but is it

:03:22. > :03:28.always as simple as that? The main challenge is the economy. The whole

:03:28. > :03:32.of the UK is in trouble. There are billions of counts of cuts in the

:03:32. > :03:36.next few years -- billions of pounds of cuts in the next few

:03:36. > :03:40.years. Then there is the Battle of government - Holyrood verses

:03:40. > :03:44.Westminster. They have clashed on things like the influence of the UK

:03:44. > :03:48.Supreme Court on Scotland's legal system and deficit reducing

:03:48. > :03:52.spending cuts, which the SNP says will take billions off of its

:03:52. > :03:56.budget in the next few years. The UK Government says the Scotland

:03:56. > :04:04.Bill will deliver the biggest single transfer of financial and

:04:04. > :04:06.other powers in 300 years. The SNP says that its status as a pocket

:04:06. > :04:10.money parliament means that Scotland cannot realise its

:04:10. > :04:15.potential. A referendum on independence is to be held towards

:04:15. > :04:19.the end of the current Parliament, with parties coming under

:04:19. > :04:29.increasing pressure to get on with it. They fear that they will lose

:04:29. > :04:31.

:04:31. > :04:35.an outbreak vote on whether to be in or out of the UK. They will keep

:04:35. > :04:41.coming back until they get full independence. The SNP recognises

:04:41. > :04:45.that not everyone backs independence. But Alex Salmond has

:04:45. > :04:50.spoken of Scots today as being part of an independence generation.

:04:50. > :04:55.Andrew Black reporting. Let's discuss some of those issues

:04:55. > :04:58.further. I am joined by Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde

:04:58. > :05:03.University and by Brian Taylor. Bryan, at this point in the

:05:03. > :05:08.proceedings, we always talk about the mood of the conference. I take

:05:08. > :05:14.it it is pitted -- pretty upbeat in Inverness? It is positively

:05:14. > :05:20.ecstatic and euphoric, but there is a contained elements to that. This

:05:20. > :05:25.party did not come into existence in 1934 to seek power. At that time

:05:25. > :05:29.it was a distant dream. Recently, when they have gained power in

:05:29. > :05:35.Holyrood, it is always with an eye to that greater objective of

:05:35. > :05:42.seeking independence. Winnie Ewing famously said that she was not in

:05:42. > :05:45.the House of Commons to settle down but to settle up. That remains the

:05:45. > :05:49.objective of the SNP. They are euphoric at their victory in the

:05:49. > :05:52.Holyrood parliament, but always there is the calculation of the

:05:52. > :05:55.strategy with regard to independence.

:05:55. > :05:59.Professor John Curtice, the stage is set in Inverness. What you think

:05:59. > :06:03.Alex Salmond has to do in his speech this afternoon? Two things

:06:03. > :06:07.we're looking out for. The first is the range of arguments that are put

:06:07. > :06:12.forward for independence. I think we can probably regard this as the

:06:12. > :06:19.beginning of a long campaigned to wards the referendum. We have seen

:06:19. > :06:22.the SNP make the arguments, as it sees it, in favour of independence.

:06:22. > :06:32.To that extent, I think this conference is quite an important

:06:32. > :06:32.

:06:32. > :06:37.event. The second thing which we are looking for is what he says

:06:37. > :06:43.about Devolution Max, his second choice. We have been told he is

:06:43. > :06:53.going to suggest it is a legitimate proposal. I think the SNP are, as

:06:53. > :06:55.

:06:55. > :07:05.it were, moving closer to it as something that may be a second best,

:07:05. > :07:06.

:07:06. > :07:09.but better than nothing. This referendum is not simply going to

:07:10. > :07:13.be an independence referendum, it will be a referendum on Scotland's

:07:13. > :07:17.constitutional future. Around that there is an important potential

:07:17. > :07:23.battle about who is going to claim ownership of the Devolution Max

:07:23. > :07:28.option. The SNP, quite sensibly, are moving to try to claim

:07:28. > :07:35.ownership of it before the opponents do. The Lib Dems said

:07:35. > :07:45.they were in favour of home rule. Model Fraser, clearly, is not

:07:45. > :07:49.unsympathetic to devolution powers. -- model Fraser.

:07:49. > :07:52.It sounds like an important afternoon for the SNP in terms of

:07:52. > :07:56.them giving a little more information about what they hope

:07:56. > :08:00.for in this referendum, which their critics have already said they do

:08:00. > :08:10.not give much information on. think, at the same time, it is a

:08:10. > :08:12.

:08:12. > :08:18.conference speech. There will be some gutsy speaking from Mr Salmond.

:08:18. > :08:24.He needs to energise the party. I have been stunned by the extent to

:08:25. > :08:27.which there is compliance with the slow progress of the referendum.

:08:27. > :08:34.One wit have perhaps expected some sections of the party to get a

:08:34. > :08:38.little bit weary with that. Quite the reverse. They have bought into

:08:38. > :08:42.the project, bought into the calculations Alex Salmond is making

:08:42. > :08:51.about the need to be fair that referendum. Why? He promised he

:08:51. > :08:59.would be fair it. Alex Salmond always believed that independence

:08:59. > :09:03.would come about when Scotland felt confident about itself, not weak.

:09:03. > :09:08.One final thought on this business of the second element of Devolution

:09:09. > :09:17.Max, I wonder who that mandates, who would feel obliged to act as a

:09:17. > :09:24.consequence of that - the UK Government, could dislike that

:09:25. > :09:29.second option. Mr Salmond says that if the people of Scotland speak

:09:29. > :09:36.they are entitled to have their way. New laws allowing gay marriage will

:09:36. > :09:40.be brought in, according to one SNP MSP. Ministers are consulting and

:09:40. > :09:44.stress that no final decision has been made. At a fringe event on the

:09:44. > :09:49.issue, Pete Wishart said he was confident the government would back

:09:49. > :09:57.reform. It has led to concern from religious groups. Glen Campbell

:09:57. > :10:02.Traditionally, marriage is a union between a man and a woman, but

:10:02. > :10:05.should the institution also be opened to same-sex couples? The

:10:05. > :10:11.Scottish Government's consulting on making it possible for gay couples

:10:11. > :10:16.to marry in Scotland. If the law is changed they say no church or other

:10:16. > :10:20.religious organisation would be forced to carry out same-sex unions.

:10:20. > :10:23.That has not been enough to win round Catholic bishops who have

:10:23. > :10:28.warmed the First Minister of a serious chill in relations with the

:10:28. > :10:32.Church if same-sex marriage goes ahead. Objections have also been

:10:32. > :10:37.raised inside the SNP. I think there will be a trip -- terrific

:10:37. > :10:41.amount of opposition. You do not take steps like this when society

:10:41. > :10:46.is broken, when families are breaking up. You do not pull out

:10:46. > :10:55.one of the cornerstones, that his marriage, which is there primarily

:10:55. > :10:59.for the raising of children. issue that is crucial to what sort

:10:59. > :11:04.of comfort -- country we want to be. A fringe event on same-sex marriage

:11:04. > :11:09.heard mainly from supporters. must go forward as equals and admit

:11:09. > :11:14.that love is a concept that we simply cannot qualify and we cannot

:11:14. > :11:21.bind. We only really have one choice here - to support equality

:11:21. > :11:26.for everyone. Equal marriage is about strengthening the institution.

:11:26. > :11:31.Equality is the only answer for our future in an independent Scotland

:11:31. > :11:36.and we should be fighting for it across the SNP, despite all the

:11:36. > :11:41.fears across parties and society on what change brings. Two speakers

:11:41. > :11:49.warned against same-sex marriage. believe that, whether our nation

:11:49. > :11:56.goes forward to independence under the SNP will depend what the SNP

:11:56. > :12:04.does with this, whether we continue to be blessed by God and be able to

:12:04. > :12:10.lead the nation or whether God's blessing will fall from us if we

:12:10. > :12:15.allow homosexual marriage as opposed to partnership. We did not

:12:15. > :12:19.vote for it at and we are not having it.

:12:19. > :12:24.The repeal of the law banning the promotion of, sexuality in schools

:12:24. > :12:31.caused a furious row in Scotland a decade ago. Businessman Brian

:12:31. > :12:38.Souter, an SNP principal donor, backed a referendum on the issue.

:12:39. > :12:44.He has made no comment on the issue of same-sex marriage. It is not his

:12:44. > :12:48.party's section 28. This is a debate that will be held with

:12:48. > :12:52.mutual respect. What I believe will happen is that our government in

:12:52. > :12:55.the course of the next few years, after this consultation, will bring

:12:55. > :13:00.forward legislation which will ensure that we have equal marriage

:13:00. > :13:10.in this country. Some worry the new law could have unintended

:13:10. > :13:14.consequences. Priests and ministers, if they refuse to carry out these

:13:14. > :13:24.ceremonies, could end up in court. I have a strong feeling that, under

:13:24. > :13:29.the Equality Act, any legislation from Scotland or Westminster could

:13:29. > :13:33.be over ruled by the Supreme Court. The Finance Secretary told the BBC

:13:33. > :13:38.that would not happen. I do not think that is a danger at all. This

:13:38. > :13:43.is an issue of clear sensitivity. We have to make the provision

:13:43. > :13:46.available on the basis that the commitments and protections that we

:13:46. > :13:51.put in place our commitments and protections that we can fully on

:13:51. > :13:54.are. I don't support gay marriage in

:13:55. > :13:59.spite of being a Conservative, I support gay marriage because I am a

:13:59. > :14:06.Conservative. The Prime Minister has already promised to change the

:14:06. > :14:10.law in England and Wales. Nicola Sturgeon is in charge of

:14:11. > :14:14.devolved policy ins,. She made no reference to same-sex marriage in

:14:14. > :14:17.her address to conference, but when she launched a consultation on

:14:17. > :14:23.changing the law, she made clear her support in principle. More

:14:23. > :14:32.recently, that Scottish Government is keen to sit -- stress that it

:14:32. > :14:37.will consider all the response I am joined by two MSPs from the

:14:37. > :14:42.conference. First of all, can you each state in 20 seconds your take

:14:42. > :14:47.on gay marriage. First of all, to you, Maureen Watt, what's your take

:14:47. > :14:52.on it? At the moment, as you know, it's out for consultation. I am

:14:52. > :14:57.waiting to see the responses. I would be minded to support it, but

:14:57. > :15:02.I am very much open to see what the responses will bring. And Dave

:15:02. > :15:06.Thompson? Well, similarly, the consultation is taking place at the

:15:06. > :15:09.moment and I am keen to see what comes in at the end of consultation.

:15:09. > :15:13.I am on record as having said I don't see any need for change at

:15:13. > :15:18.the moment, but let's see what the consultation brings in and let's

:15:18. > :15:23.have a proper and full and sensible debate about it after that. What is

:15:23. > :15:27.the need for change? We do have civil partnerships in law, we have

:15:27. > :15:33.had those for a few years, why is there this need for a change?

:15:33. > :15:37.I think we can see other countries moving in that direction and as we

:15:37. > :15:42.said, we have put it out to consultation. We have said we would

:15:42. > :15:47.do that and have done it. We will wait and see what happens. What's

:15:47. > :15:51.your objection to gay marriage, why do you think it shouldn't happen?

:15:51. > :15:57.Well, the consultation is drawing in a lot of responses, as your

:15:57. > :16:01.piece just showed there, that there's a big debate going on at

:16:01. > :16:05.the moment and we need to see just what comes in on the consultation.

:16:05. > :16:10.It is important for a Government that is a listening Government to

:16:10. > :16:14.listen to what the people say. I would encourage everybody out there

:16:14. > :16:18.who wants to influence this debate to get their contributions into the

:16:18. > :16:22.Government and we will have a full and frank and sensible debate about

:16:22. > :16:26.the issues in due course. On the press release accompanying the

:16:26. > :16:29.consultation it's pointed out the social attitudes survey which said

:16:29. > :16:32.60% of Scots do support gay marriage, if you are a listening

:16:32. > :16:37.Government why don't you just go ahead and do it? I think you have

:16:37. > :16:42.to look much more widely than just an opinion poll. Opinion polls can

:16:42. > :16:46.be affected by the question and how you ask it and so on. We need a

:16:46. > :16:50.full consultation. We need to listen to what people all over

:16:50. > :16:54.Scotland have to say about this issue and the various different

:16:54. > :16:59.organisations that have an interest in it, as well. The sensible thing

:16:59. > :17:04.to do for a listening Government is to wait, see what comes in, have a

:17:04. > :17:09.proper debate, and then decide what to do. We saw some strong

:17:09. > :17:13.objections to gay marriage in that report, words being banded around

:17:13. > :17:18.such as God removing his blessing from the party. We have seen the

:17:18. > :17:21.mainstream faith groups such as the Roman Catholic Church opposed to it.

:17:22. > :17:27.Do you fear there could be unintended consequences in the

:17:27. > :17:31.legislation, ie, forcing religious groups to perform these ceremonies?

:17:31. > :17:37.Well, when the legislation comes, it has got to be detailed and we

:17:37. > :17:40.have to make sure that it's tight enough, that it doesn't have

:17:40. > :17:45.unintended consequences. These kind of things will come out in the

:17:45. > :17:50.consultation and the debate, once the legislation is proposed and

:17:50. > :17:54.that's why we can't pre-empt that. We shouldn't as a Government and as

:17:54. > :17:59.parliamentarians pre-empt that. We should be, as Dave has said,

:17:59. > :18:04.listening to all aspects and all answers to the consultation and

:18:04. > :18:07.that's what we are doing. Dave Thompson, I am sure the legislation

:18:07. > :18:11.would ensure that people weren't forced to go ahead with this, do

:18:11. > :18:18.you think it's time for a more tempered discussion in the SNP and

:18:18. > :18:21.not the kind of devisive language we saw yesterday. I wasn't at the

:18:21. > :18:25.meeting you referred to and I am quite sure that the debate that we

:18:25. > :18:29.will have will be a very measured debate. It will be a sensible

:18:29. > :18:32.debate where people can put their point of view on both sides of the

:18:32. > :18:37.argument and we can decide how to go forward. It's a debate, not just

:18:37. > :18:42.for the SNP, it's a debate for all parties and all parties will have

:18:42. > :18:46.different views within them. Thank you very much.

:18:46. > :18:50.Now, the point of this party is fundamentally independence. The

:18:50. > :18:54.referendum is going to happen but it won't be cut and dried. There is

:18:54. > :19:04.a debate about what forms Scottish independence might take and whether

:19:04. > :19:07.

:19:07. > :19:11.there should be more than one question. Here is our correspondent

:19:11. > :19:14.Raymond Buchanan. They can almost taste it. An

:19:14. > :19:18.independence referendum will be offered to the people soon, but so

:19:18. > :19:24.far a debate on the subject hasn't been on the conference menu.

:19:24. > :19:28.Instead, a fringe event hosted by the Daily Telegraph gave delegates

:19:28. > :19:32.a chance to discuss the policy. This is why we are in business.

:19:32. > :19:37.This is it. They came here to debate visions of independence. At

:19:37. > :19:41.the top table the party's campaign director, and the former treasurer.

:19:41. > :19:44.From the audience questions about how this party can win with a

:19:44. > :19:47.referendum at least two years away. I have friends who are not at all

:19:47. > :19:50.interested in politics and I was visiting them last week and they

:19:50. > :19:56.were saying everybody is talking about independence and Alex Salmond,

:19:56. > :20:04.how do we sustain that until 2014? My fear is dirty tricks at the

:20:04. > :20:09.crossroads. Do you think that can happen? Firstly the issue about the

:20:09. > :20:16.establishment, I am not sure there is an establishment in the sense,

:20:16. > :20:21.the idea that there's some sort of huge conspiracy, I am not convinced

:20:21. > :20:27.about. Indeed, to help them win the party hierarchy are actively

:20:27. > :20:31.embracing British traditions, so an independent Scotland would keep the

:20:31. > :20:36.Queen, the pound, and have an open border. When people do listen to

:20:36. > :20:39.that they'll realise this is what every other normal country does in

:20:39. > :20:44.the world. We can continue to have a social union we all value, but we

:20:44. > :20:47.can also be a normal country that makes the important decisions that

:20:47. > :20:52.affect ourselves as individuals, as families and communities.

:20:52. > :20:55.doesn't that sound like a light- weight version of independence?

:20:55. > :20:58.Independence is your parliament being Sovereign so parliament can

:20:58. > :21:02.make whatever decision it is wants. It may be that there are a whole

:21:02. > :21:05.series of areas where we continue to pool our interests, both with

:21:05. > :21:08.our neighbours and friends on these islands, but elsewhere in Europe

:21:08. > :21:12.and the world. The key thing is that our parliament can make

:21:12. > :21:16.whatever decisions it likes and that means if any of these

:21:16. > :21:19.arrangements aren't optimal in the future you can change them. If that

:21:19. > :21:24.seems too strong for voters the SNP have another option, more powers

:21:24. > :21:27.for Holyrood, but not independence. It's been called devolution max.

:21:27. > :21:33.It's not what delegates here want, but it will be better than nothing

:21:33. > :21:38.at all. One is about absolute independence and the other is about

:21:38. > :21:46.more devolution and more powers. Which powers? Possibly tax-raising

:21:46. > :21:51.powers. More of a Sovereign ownership on what we think of as

:21:51. > :21:56.Scottish and Scottish issues. half-way house between what we have

:21:56. > :22:01.at the moment and full independence where the Scottish parliament would

:22:01. > :22:04.have more powers than it currently has, but is not the full

:22:04. > :22:10.independence that we seek. there are some within the party who

:22:10. > :22:13.think a second referendum question could risk confusing voters and

:22:13. > :22:21.imperil independence. The aim should be to take the people by the

:22:21. > :22:25.hand and show them we can create this better society and that mean

:22:25. > :22:28.hrrb. The party are likely to back two referendum questions, but look

:22:28. > :22:33.to others to argue for the devolution max option. Then there's

:22:33. > :22:38.the question of when this will all happen. 2014 has been hinted at but

:22:38. > :22:42.that's a secret to be revealed another day.

:22:42. > :22:45.Well, let's discuss this further and go back to Inverness and our

:22:45. > :22:50.political editor Brian Taylor. Thank you very much.

:22:50. > :22:54.I am joined here at the Eden Court Theatre by Professor James Mitchell

:22:54. > :22:57.and eubgs pert on -- an expert on these matters, covering these

:22:57. > :23:04.things as long as I have anyway, which is probably a depressing

:23:04. > :23:08.thought for both of us. You were here to deliver the Donaldson

:23:08. > :23:13.lecture. First, this issue of the second question in a referendum,

:23:13. > :23:20.there will be independence and then devolution Max which I kper pret as

:23:20. > :23:24.being -- kper pret as -- interpret. Is that a clever strategic move on

:23:24. > :23:27.the part of the SNP or a confusion? I think it's a clever move. In a

:23:27. > :23:30.sense it's an insurance policy so that if the Scots don't vote for

:23:30. > :23:34.independence the likelihood is they'll vote for more powers and

:23:34. > :23:40.that seems to be where public opinion is at the moment. Polls

:23:41. > :23:45.suggest, the large polls. We have contradictory evidence from the

:23:45. > :23:50.polls. At least the SNP would win something if it's not the end goal.

:23:50. > :23:54.Exactly what that more powers involves is as yet unclear. I have

:23:54. > :23:57.to say my view would be that the SNP alone cannot define that.

:23:57. > :24:00.That's got to be something the other political parties and perhaps

:24:00. > :24:03.even beyond the parties have to have a share in defining. Is that

:24:03. > :24:06.because it will be down to a UK Government to make the changes, the

:24:06. > :24:12.Scottish Government, if that is mandated, the Scottish Government

:24:12. > :24:16.on its own could not bring about devolution max? You cannot devolve

:24:16. > :24:19.as it were, over the years even before we had devolution. The

:24:19. > :24:22.problem is if Scots vote for independence it's clear-cut, you

:24:22. > :24:26.get independence. There are negotiations but you get it. When

:24:26. > :24:30.you vote for more powers you have got to negotiate with a UK

:24:30. > :24:34.Government and it would make sense before you put anything on the

:24:34. > :24:37.ballot paper to have some agreement across parties, at least some of

:24:37. > :24:40.the other parties, on what that vote will be. The Liberal Democrats

:24:40. > :24:44.are clearly engaging in this. They've set up a Commission to look

:24:44. > :24:49.at this. We know there is a debate inside the the Labour Party. Who

:24:49. > :24:52.knows who may happen in the Tory Party. Your own lecture, you

:24:52. > :24:59.referred to Scottish identity had become more comfortable, a change

:24:59. > :25:02.you had seen since the previous time you did the lecture. 94.

:25:02. > :25:06.said perhaps the party near needed to recognise there were continuing

:25:06. > :25:11.British dimensions, did you arrange a bodyguard for after the speech!

:25:11. > :25:20.If I tried that in 1994 I wouldn't have got away with it. It wouldn't

:25:20. > :25:23.have gone down at all well. That's a major statement, not just in the

:25:23. > :25:26.changes here in the SNP but in Scotland. We are more relaxed about

:25:27. > :25:32.who we are. This is an identity, a Scottish identity that doesn't feel

:25:32. > :25:35.threatened. What do you mean by the British dimensions? A number of

:25:35. > :25:39.different dimensions. There will be continueities, unions that will

:25:39. > :25:45.continue. The social union, the links between people with family

:25:45. > :25:49.and friends in parts of the UK. SNP need to begin to... They need

:25:49. > :25:53.to articulate that. Britishness is the term to use. They've problems

:25:53. > :25:58.with this term and we need to get over this. Now it's possible

:25:58. > :26:01.because Scottish identity is more secure. Thank you very much.

:26:01. > :26:07.Back to the studio. Thank you very much.

:26:07. > :26:11.Well, Professor John Kurtice is still here. What do you think about

:26:11. > :26:16.that, about a second question, a clever move or confusion? Well, the

:26:16. > :26:18.truth is the history of this is that the SNP when it held the

:26:18. > :26:23.national conversation I think through that process discovered

:26:23. > :26:26.that indeed what some opinion approximatelies already de-- polls

:26:26. > :26:30.already detected, the idea of Scotland being responsible for more

:26:30. > :26:33.or less most of its domestic affairs, but defence and foreign

:26:33. > :26:38.affairs was the most thing - through that conversation they

:26:38. > :26:41.discovered the popularity of that position. As a result, ever since

:26:41. > :26:45.the conclusion of the national conversation that's clearly been

:26:45. > :26:49.potentially on the SNP's agenda. I think in part the SNP learned

:26:49. > :26:52.something. But it's also true that certainly the opinion polls

:26:52. > :26:56.indicate that seems to be something the public are willing to vote for,

:26:56. > :26:59.whereas they don't seem to be willing at the moment, at least the

:27:00. > :27:04.majority, to vote for inpence. It has to be said, if you were to go

:27:04. > :27:10.back... Sorry, I have to stop you there. We can go straight to our

:27:10. > :27:20.commentator Andrew Black where Alex Salmond is about to speak in Eden

:27:20. > :27:32.

:27:32. > :27:38.I was just Can I say to the folk in the hall, you are the lucky ones.

:27:38. > :27:46.These five overspill halls, they're all paying, you know!

:27:46. > :27:50.The message from premier Ran should remind us of two things. Firstly,

:27:50. > :27:54.Scotland has many, many friends internationally. People are

:27:54. > :28:00.cheering us on, they're wishing us well. And that international reach

:28:00. > :28:04.is a huge asset for our country. Secondly, climate change is perhaps

:28:04. > :28:08.the biggest single issue facing this planet. The responsibility of

:28:08. > :28:12.the Scottish parliament, the Scottish Government for it's

:28:12. > :28:17.element accidental, it wasn't even on the agenda back in 1997 and

:28:17. > :28:21.therefore, wasn't specified or reserved in the Scotland Act, as a

:28:21. > :28:26.result it became devolved. So, given that by international acclaim

:28:26. > :28:30.we have handled this mighty issue well, as a Government and as a

:28:30. > :28:34.parliament, what possible argument could there be that the Scottish

:28:34. > :28:44.parliament is not capable of discharging all of the issues

:28:44. > :28:46.

:28:46. > :28:50.facing the Scottish people? APPLAUSE.

:28:50. > :28:55.Also I wanted to say a word about Scotland's late national poet Eddie

:28:55. > :28:59.Morgan. He was a man whose modesty as an individual was matched only

:28:59. > :29:05.by his brilliance as a poet. He didn't wear his politics on his

:29:05. > :29:10.sleeve, but he's left this party a financial legacy which is

:29:10. > :29:15.transformational in its scope and Angus will spell out that tomorrow.

:29:15. > :29:19.His real legacy, of course, to the world is in the body of his work.

:29:19. > :29:25.He once told our Scottish parliament we give you our deepest,

:29:25. > :29:30.dearest wish to govern well, don't say we have no mandate to be so

:29:30. > :29:40.bold. Delegates, by your applause, let's salute the life of Edward

:29:40. > :29:53.

:29:53. > :29:58.Nicola, when I was cutting my political teeth in West Lothian,

:29:58. > :30:01.trying to work out what I did with that computer screen, the late

:30:01. > :30:09.Billy Wolfe once told me that the Scottish National Party stood for

:30:09. > :30:18.two things: Independence for Scotland and home rule for Bo'ness.

:30:18. > :30:24.In reality, of course, the SNP does stand for two fundamental aims.

:30:24. > :30:28.Independence for Scotland and also the furthering of all Scottish

:30:28. > :30:32.interests. These are guiding lights and they are equally important

:30:32. > :30:40.because they reflect the reality that our politics are not just

:30:40. > :30:44.constitutional but based on people. I tried to reflect some of the Sun

:30:44. > :30:49.election night when the community of the realm of Scotland presented

:30:49. > :30:54.us with their greatest ever mandate of the devilish in Iraq. We got an

:30:54. > :30:57.absolute majority in a proportional system, a system specifically give

:30:58. > :31:07.up -- designed to prevent such a thing from happening. Mind you, it

:31:08. > :31:09.

:31:09. > :31:17.was designed by the Labour Party, so... Perhaps we should not be

:31:17. > :31:25.surprised that their cunning plan did not work out. The best laid

:31:25. > :31:31.schemes of mice and Lord George Robertson. I said that, after

:31:31. > :31:36.almost 80 years, we had lived up to the name of one of our founding

:31:36. > :31:46.parties. East, west, south and north, we are now the National

:31:46. > :31:51.

:31:51. > :31:55.Party of Scotland. It is a good phrase - the community of the realm.

:31:55. > :32:03.It is a concept developed in medieval Scotland to describe an

:32:03. > :32:07.idea of community identity which was beyond sectional interest. The

:32:07. > :32:12.best Scots term would be the common well. Sometimes as a government we

:32:12. > :32:18.have to take sides with in Scotland as well as taking Scotland's side,

:32:18. > :32:23.particularly when times are tough and we have to ask the rich to help

:32:23. > :32:31.the poor and the strong to help the weak. We always do so in pursuit of

:32:31. > :32:40.that common good. We love Scotland but we do not believe our country

:32:40. > :32:44.is perfect. We seek to make it better. We know that, in building

:32:44. > :32:49.the new Scotland, we must confront the demons from the past, like

:32:49. > :32:53.sectarianism, and problems from the present, like alcoholism. The

:32:53. > :32:58.election told us that the people respect and understand that

:32:58. > :33:03.sometimes it takes guts to govern. We shall always government for that

:33:03. > :33:07.common good. We government, we have government, wisely, and we will

:33:07. > :33:14.continue to do so. We have sheltered the community from the

:33:14. > :33:18.economic storms in so far as it is in our power to do so. Our

:33:18. > :33:23.community face hugely difficult circumstances, a squeeze between

:33:23. > :33:27.falling in comes and rising prices. To help family budgets we have

:33:27. > :33:37.frozen the council tax for four years and we will continue to

:33:37. > :33:41.freeze it through this Parliament. APPLAUSE Labour say that we should

:33:41. > :33:51.not do this. Really? Then we would have the same

:33:51. > :33:56.60% rises as when they were in power, a council tax rise of �680

:33:56. > :34:00.for a Band D property. We have held down water rates. The Lib Dems say

:34:00. > :34:09.we should privatise water. Really? Then we would be as powerless to

:34:09. > :34:15.act on water bills as they are right now to act on energy bills.

:34:15. > :34:21.And to help family budgets we have abolished prescription charges.

:34:21. > :34:27.APPLAUSE The Tories say we should not do this.

:34:27. > :34:32.Tell that to the 600,000 Scots on incomes of �16,000 who were forced

:34:32. > :34:38.to pay for their medicine. Every household bill which is on the road

:34:38. > :34:41.influence we have tried to control. Every household bill under UK

:34:41. > :34:49.influence is out of control. In Scotland, we have a prices and

:34:49. > :34:55.incomes policy, in England, the Tories control in comes, except, of

:34:55. > :34:59.course, in the boardroom, but not prices. None of these things - the

:34:59. > :35:04.frieze of council tax, prescription charges, water bills - has been

:35:04. > :35:11.easy. The record shows that the only party attempting to hold down

:35:11. > :35:21.household bills is the Scottish Government and the SNP.

:35:21. > :35:25.APPLAUSE Now, the Unionist parties have lost touch with the people.

:35:25. > :35:34.Labour and Tories are parties without a lead of. The Liberals

:35:34. > :35:40.have a leader without a party! LAUGHTER.

:35:41. > :35:44.We govern well, they will pose badly. In the election, the people

:35:44. > :35:54.decided that Labour would not fit for government. Right now, they are

:35:54. > :35:54.

:35:54. > :36:02.not fit for opposition in Scotland. Governing well makes a real

:36:02. > :36:05.difference to real people. Back in 2007, we said we would put 1,000

:36:05. > :36:12.extra police on the streets and communities of Scotland. Labour

:36:12. > :36:19.said it could not be done, but it has been done. The result has been

:36:19. > :36:29.a 35 years low in recorded crime in Scotland. I will just repeat that.

:36:29. > :36:31.

:36:31. > :36:36.Recorded crime is at its lowest since 1976, when Jimmy Carter was

:36:36. > :36:41.the President of the United States and Jenny Saville was presenting

:36:41. > :36:45.Top Of The Pops. Earlier this week, an opinion poll showed that fear of

:36:45. > :36:52.crime in Scotland were running at almost half the level of the rest

:36:52. > :37:01.of the United Kingdom - 28% against 48%. Much of that success is down

:37:01. > :37:04.to these extra police officers. We believe in freedom, but the freedom

:37:04. > :37:10.of people from fear of being mugged or Robbie is a key objective of

:37:10. > :37:14.this government. The extra police officers and a substantial part of

:37:14. > :37:17.achieving that objective. Let there be no mistake - at our reform of

:37:17. > :37:26.the police service in Scotland is about protecting the front line so

:37:27. > :37:32.that the front line can protect the people.

:37:32. > :37:36.Right now our focus is on jobs and the economy. John Swinney and his

:37:36. > :37:43.team spend every waking minute seeking to encourage our businesses

:37:43. > :37:48.to grow and to attract new companies to Scotland. We have the

:37:48. > :37:51.most competitive business tax regime across these islands. 80,000

:37:51. > :37:56.small businesses either pay no rates a tall or have a substantial

:37:56. > :38:00.discount. We know, as they do, that their success is the key to future

:38:00. > :38:06.job creation. We shall continue to offer that crucial incentive

:38:06. > :38:16.throughout this Parliament. Let us be clear - the Small Business Bonus

:38:16. > :38:19.

:38:19. > :38:21.stays in SNP Scotland. APPLAUSE In the last few months, a

:38:21. > :38:29.procession of major international companies have chosen Scotland as

:38:29. > :38:33.the place to conduct their business. The message has been the same -

:38:33. > :38:39.Scotland has the people and the resources to allow them to conduct

:38:39. > :38:44.their international operations from a Scottish base. What have the UK

:38:44. > :38:48.Government been focusing on while we focus on jobs and investment?

:38:48. > :38:55.They have formed at Cabinet sub- committee to attack Scottish

:38:55. > :39:05.independence. Let us get this right. Cameron, Clyde, Osborne and

:39:05. > :39:05.

:39:05. > :39:09.Alexander set on a committee thinking of how to bring down

:39:09. > :39:13.Scotland while inflation is more than double its target and don't --

:39:13. > :39:16.unemployment is at an all-time high. And they wonder why they carry no

:39:16. > :39:20.confidence among the people of England, never mind the people of

:39:20. > :39:30.Scotland. Our message to these ministers is clear: Stop attacking

:39:30. > :39:32.

:39:32. > :39:42.Scottish aspirations and start supporting economic recovery.

:39:42. > :39:44.

:39:44. > :39:51.APPLAUSE We need more capital investment, not less.

:39:51. > :39:57.Finance for companies, job security for the people. What is the grand

:39:57. > :40:01.strategy emerging from London to restore their flagging political

:40:01. > :40:08.fortunes? More ministerial day trips to Scotland. Conference,

:40:08. > :40:18.every Tory minister who comes North puts it another 1,000 boats towards

:40:18. > :40:25.

:40:25. > :40:31.the national cause. -- puts another 1,000 volts. -- votes.

:40:31. > :40:36.The Prime Minister came to hail the new investment in oil and gas

:40:36. > :40:40.fields. There was no sign of a ministerial visit this week when

:40:40. > :40:44.his government betrayed the future of Long Gannet. Over 13 billion

:40:44. > :40:48.from Scotland's oil and gas in the course of this year, but not even

:40:48. > :40:58.one 10th of that to secure the future of the Clean coal industry

:40:58. > :41:03.of Scotland, not even one 10th of one year of oil and gas revenues to

:41:03. > :41:13.help our planet saving technology. Mr Cameron, how little you

:41:13. > :41:20.

:41:20. > :41:23.understand Scotland! CHEERING AND APPLAUSE when he was

:41:23. > :41:28.making the BP announcement, Mr Cameron claimed his geography

:41:28. > :41:32.teacher at Eton had told him all the oil would be gone by the turn

:41:32. > :41:37.of the century. The Prime Minister's memory is

:41:37. > :41:40.faulty. It was not his Etonian geography teacher, it was

:41:40. > :41:43.successive Labour and Tory governments, like Margaret

:41:43. > :41:49.Thatcher's Energy Minister, who claimed that oil was declining in

:41:49. > :41:53.1980. Now the cat is well and truly out of the bag. We know that oil

:41:53. > :41:58.and gas will be extracted from the waters around Scotland for at least

:41:58. > :42:05.the next 40 years. Can I, therefore, put this very simple proposition?

:42:05. > :42:09.After 40 years of oil and gas, West Minister has coined in some �300

:42:09. > :42:14.billion from Scottish waters. That is around �60,000 a head for every

:42:14. > :42:19.man, woman and child in this country. The Tory's own Office for

:42:19. > :42:23.Budget Responsibility figures suggest another �230 billion of oil

:42:23. > :42:28.revenues over the next 30 years. And that was before the latest

:42:28. > :42:35.announcements. London has had its turn out of Scottish oil and gas.

:42:36. > :42:45.Let the next 40 years before the people of Scotland. -- before the

:42:46. > :42:55.

:42:55. > :43:05.APPLAUSE Scotland, our country, has the greatest a real energy

:43:05. > :43:05.

:43:05. > :43:10.resources in Europe - dazzling, gas, Hydro-Electric and clean coal.

:43:11. > :43:14.I went to announce the redevelopment of a fabrication site.

:43:14. > :43:17.Marine engineering is coming alive in the Highlands of Scotland again.

:43:17. > :43:23.Today I am announcing a further important development on our

:43:23. > :43:27.journey to lead the world in wave and tidal power. There will be a

:43:27. > :43:33.new �80 million fund to support Marine Energy commercialisation.

:43:33. > :43:38.This will support development, scaling up device is already under

:43:38. > :43:41.test in Scottish waters. This is part of a �35 million investment

:43:41. > :43:45.over the next three years which will support the testing,

:43:45. > :43:50.technology, infrastructure and deployment. Scotland is leading the

:43:50. > :43:54.race to develop offshore renewables. With this announcement, our nation

:43:54. > :44:04.moves up another gear. The message is clear: In Marine Energy, it is

:44:04. > :44:14.

:44:14. > :44:20.Right now some two thirds of wave and tidal projects in Europe are in

:44:21. > :44:26.Scottish waters. That will soon be three quarters. The announcement on

:44:26. > :44:30.Thursday of the intention to test underlines the international impact

:44:30. > :44:36.that Scotland is having. And as we develop wave and tidal commercially

:44:36. > :44:40.in our waters, then we will export that technology across the planet.

:44:40. > :44:45.Our objective in wave and tidal power is not just of demonstration

:44:45. > :44:49.projects, but hundreds of megawatts of electricity by 2020, enough to

:44:49. > :44:52.power half a million homes in Scotland. The green

:44:52. > :44:59.reindustrialisation of the coastline of Scotland is central to

:45:00. > :45:06.our vision of the future. And the jobs impact will be felt to Dundee,

:45:06. > :45:11.to Aberdeen and the northeast ports, to the Murray Forth, from Orkney

:45:12. > :45:14.waters to the western Isles. All of these areas will benefit from the

:45:14. > :45:24.green reindustrialisation of Scotland.

:45:24. > :45:29.

:45:29. > :45:36.Now onshore wind power has wb one serious drawback, that is only a

:45:36. > :45:42.little of the fabrication is homebased, despite the fact the

:45:43. > :45:47.first modern wind turbine was tepl straighted in 1887, that's right,

:45:47. > :45:53.1887, the technology was exported to Denmark and Germany more than a

:45:53. > :45:56.generation ago. However, we can do something about our off shore

:45:56. > :46:01.renewable opportunity. Our objective is that Scotland will

:46:01. > :46:04.design, engineer, fabricate, install machines that will dominate

:46:04. > :46:14.the energy provision of this century. That's our vision for

:46:14. > :46:20.

:46:20. > :46:27.Scotland and we shall get there. And in doing so, we will create

:46:27. > :46:30.jobs and opportunity and hope for young people in Scotland. It is the

:46:30. > :46:36.inescapable responsibility of this Government, indeed for every adult

:46:36. > :46:40.Scot, to help tackle the scourge of youth unemployment. Employment

:46:40. > :46:44.among Scottish youngsters is almost 5% higher than elsewhere in these

:46:44. > :46:47.islands. We have a near record of school leavers going on to positive

:46:48. > :46:53.destinations of a job and apprenticeship, or full-time

:46:53. > :46:59.education. However, this is not enough. Youth unemployment is still

:46:59. > :47:05.far, far too high. So this is what we are doing, and this is what we

:47:05. > :47:09.shall do. First, apprenticeships. There will be 25,000 modern

:47:09. > :47:15.apprenticeships in Scotland. 60% more than when we took office. Not

:47:15. > :47:19.just for this year, but every year. And in Scotland remember every

:47:19. > :47:23.single youngster on a modern apprenticeship is in a job.

:47:23. > :47:29.Secondly, every major contract or grant from Government will now have

:47:29. > :47:39.an apprenticeship or training plan attached to it. For example, when

:47:39. > :47:43.in the last few weeks pwrobgs stopb was chosen as there were 50 new

:47:44. > :47:53.apprenticeships in new jobs. Every junkster not in a job -- youngster

:47:53. > :47:56.not in a job or apprenticeship will be offered a a training opportunity.

:47:56. > :48:01.Fourthly, we shall ensure that university and college education

:48:01. > :48:04.remains free to Scottish students. We now have more world-class

:48:04. > :48:09.universities per head than any other nation on the face of this

:48:09. > :48:15.planet. And thanks to this party that opportunity will remain to

:48:15. > :48:25.young Scots on the basis of ability to learn, not the ability to pay.

:48:25. > :48:34.

:48:34. > :48:38.Today I am announcing a further move, companies in energy sector,

:48:38. > :48:43.even this difficult economic climate, are reporting skill

:48:43. > :48:46.shortages. Over the next four years we will deliver 2000 modern

:48:46. > :48:50.apprenticeships specifically designed for the energy industries.

:48:50. > :48:54.However, we will also now provide an additional 1,000 flexible

:48:55. > :49:00.training places for energy and low carbon. Real opportunities for our

:49:00. > :49:10.youngsters in the sectors which will shape the industrial future of

:49:10. > :49:12.

:49:12. > :49:17.our country. We can't wipe every tear from every

:49:17. > :49:22.cheek, much as we would like to. But we can try. Everything that we

:49:22. > :49:26.do will reflect the common wheel of Scotland. The best way to get

:49:26. > :49:30.people back into work is through capital investment, that's why John

:49:30. > :49:35.Swinney is diverting funds to sustain economic recovery. That's

:49:35. > :49:38.why we created the Scottish Futures Trust to gain value for money.

:49:38. > :49:42.Major contracts sponsored by the Scottish Government have now

:49:42. > :49:47.delivered on time and on budget. And this gives me the opportunity

:49:47. > :49:51.to make a further announcement. Two years ago we set out plans for a

:49:51. > :49:56.new school building programme in Scotland led by the Scottish

:49:56. > :50:00.Futures Trust, our investment was to deliver 55 new schools. 37 new

:50:00. > :50:04.schools already committed in the first two phases. Conference, the

:50:04. > :50:08.Scottish Futures Trust has levelled the playing field in public sector

:50:08. > :50:18.construction contracts, we have sunk the PFI and replaced it with

:50:18. > :50:24.

:50:24. > :50:28.That's the sort of action that's allowed us to deliver over 300 new

:50:28. > :50:31.or refurbished schools in the last four years. And that's why today I

:50:31. > :50:36.am able to tell you that the next phase of the new school building

:50:36. > :50:42.programme will be able to deliver 30 new schools across the nation, a

:50:42. > :50:47.dozen more than previously planned. That will provide a further 15,000

:50:47. > :50:52.pupils with 21st century learning facilities. Delegates, in the face

:50:52. > :50:55.of Westminster cutbacks, �2.5 billion non-profit distribution

:50:55. > :51:00.programme is crucial to economic recovery. None of that would have

:51:00. > :51:10.been possible if we had allowed the PFI rip-off to continue. That's

:51:10. > :51:20.

:51:20. > :51:27.We face a winter in this energy rich country of ours, where people

:51:27. > :51:31.will be frightened to turn on their heating. Fuel poverty amid energy

:51:31. > :51:41.plenty. What a miserable disgraceful legacy from Westminster

:51:41. > :51:43.

:51:43. > :51:46.to our energy-rich nation. Fuel poverty amid energy plenty, if

:51:46. > :51:50.there was ever an argument for taking control of our own resources,

:51:50. > :51:56.then this must be it. The Prime Minister's fuel summit was little

:51:56. > :52:01.more than hot air. We don't control the energy markets. But we can and

:52:01. > :52:04.will do something to help. We already have the best heating

:52:04. > :52:09.initiatives in these islands, we have invested funds this year to

:52:09. > :52:14.make what's good even better. We have expanded our energy assistance

:52:14. > :52:18.package to include thousands of Scottish carers. And by 2015 the

:52:18. > :52:24.Scottish Government will increase our fuel poverty and energy budget

:52:24. > :52:30.by one third. And because of that investment I am able to make a

:52:30. > :52:34.further announcement. A few moments ago you heard the premier of south

:52:34. > :52:38.Australia praising our offer of energy efficiency measures to half

:52:38. > :52:48.a million Scottish households. I can now tell you by April of next

:52:48. > :52:52.

:52:52. > :52:56.year that 500,000 will become 700,000, ensuring 200,000 more

:52:56. > :53:06.Scottish families get the help they need to heat their homes in this

:53:06. > :53:09.

:53:09. > :53:16.energy-rich country of ours. Delegates, on the way to Inverness

:53:16. > :53:22.on Thursday, I noticed an outdoor company called Nay Limits. Now, no

:53:22. > :53:27.limits is a beautiful idea. And somehow it carries a bit more punch

:53:27. > :53:32.in the Scots. Nay limits to your ambition, your courage, your

:53:32. > :53:36.journey. It sums up the spirit of freedom which many of us take from

:53:36. > :53:43.our magnificent landscape and which we wish for our society and for our

:53:43. > :53:46.politics. It's the same spirit that was reflected in the worlds of

:53:46. > :53:49.Charles Stuart Parnell. No man has the right to fix of boundary of a

:53:49. > :53:56.march of a nation, no man has the right to say to his country thus

:53:56. > :54:06.far shall thou go and no further. No politician, and certainly no

:54:06. > :54:18.

:54:18. > :54:23.London politician, will determine So the Prime Minister should hear

:54:24. > :54:29.this loud and clear. The people of Scotland, the Sovereign people of

:54:29. > :54:34.Scotland are now in the driving seat. 20 years ago when Scotland

:54:34. > :54:39.faced a previous Tory Government, a cross-party group through up a

:54:39. > :54:41.claim of right for Scotland. This is what it said: We do do here by

:54:41. > :54:45.acknowledge the Sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine

:54:45. > :54:49.the form of Government best suited to their needs and do here by

:54:49. > :54:55.declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations, their

:54:55. > :55:01.interests shall be paramount. 20 years ago we demonstrated for that

:55:02. > :55:08.right in front of an open-top bus in Edinburgh. But we had no

:55:08. > :55:14.parliament then. The point is a very simple one, we have now that

:55:14. > :55:17.claim of right and next month I will ask Scotland's parliament to

:55:17. > :55:23.endorse a new Scotland's khraepl of right. The days -- claim of right.

:55:23. > :55:32.The days of Westminster politicians telling Scotland to do or think is

:55:32. > :55:42.over. The Scottish people will set the agenda for the future.

:55:42. > :55:56.

:55:56. > :56:00.Robert Kennedy once said the future is not a gift, it's an achievement.

:56:00. > :56:05.That's true for Scotland as it is for any nation. Our future will be

:56:05. > :56:11.what we make it. The Scotland Bill isn't even enacted yet, yet it lies

:56:11. > :56:14.in the past, unloved uninspiring, not even understood but its own

:56:14. > :56:18.propoepbents. The UK Government haven't even gone through the

:56:18. > :56:21.motions of considering the views of the Scottish Government. The

:56:21. > :56:25.current Scottish parliament committee, the last Scottish

:56:25. > :56:30.parliamentary committee. Total negativity to even the most

:56:30. > :56:35.reasonable proposal to strengthen the Bill's job-creating powers. The

:56:35. > :56:41.respect agenda lies dead in the throats. This is Westminster's

:56:41. > :56:46.agenda of disrespect, not disrespect to the SNP, but a

:56:46. > :56:52.fundamental disrespect for Scotland. The Tories and their liberal

:56:52. > :56:58.frontmen have even taken to call themselves Scotland's other

:56:58. > :57:01.Government. A Tory-Scottish Government? I tell you if phraser

:57:01. > :57:11.thought such a notion was conceivable, he wouldn't be trying

:57:11. > :57:14.

:57:14. > :57:18.In contrast fiscal responsibility, financial freedom, real economic

:57:18. > :57:22.power is a legitimate proposal. It could allow us to control our own

:57:22. > :57:28.resources, introduce competitive business tax, and fair personal

:57:28. > :57:33.taxation. All good, all necessary, but not enough. Delegates, even

:57:33. > :57:37.with economic powers Trident nuclear missiles would still be on

:57:37. > :57:41.the river Clyde, we could still be forced to spill blood in illegal

:57:41. > :57:44.wars like Iraq and Scotland would still be excluded from the councils

:57:44. > :57:49.of Europe and the world. These things only independence can bring.

:57:49. > :57:59.It's why this party will campaign full square for independence in the

:57:59. > :58:14.

:58:14. > :58:21.coming referendum. We have the talent, the resources,

:58:21. > :58:25.the ingenuity. The only limitations our imagination and ambition. Let

:58:25. > :58:29.us put the people of Scotland in charge and see our nation flourish

:58:29. > :58:34.as never before. Let us build a nation that reflects the values of

:58:34. > :58:44.our people. With a social contract and a social conscience at the very

:58:44. > :58:46.

:58:46. > :58:50.heart of our success. It is not a country or a future on offer from

:58:50. > :58:56.the Tory government in the south. That one institution which really

:58:56. > :59:02.made that -- made great Britain great - the National Health Service

:59:02. > :59:11.- is being dismantled. The Tories Colet "big society", I call it no

:59:11. > :59:16.society at all. -- the Tories call it. Remember the founding

:59:16. > :59:22.principles. We are committed to winning independence for Scotland

:59:22. > :59:28.and we have pledged to the furtherance of all Scottish

:59:28. > :59:32.interests. Both are in our DNA. It is to we are and what we are for.

:59:32. > :59:37.It is what makes us Scotland's National Party. It is more than

:59:37. > :59:41.just the name, it is an attitude. Over these past three days at this

:59:41. > :59:46.conference, I have seen that passion and belief in action. We

:59:46. > :59:51.are a party with a mission because we know Scotland's causes great and

:59:51. > :59:58.we know Scotland's need is great. Let us be strong, let us have her

:59:58. > :00:02.own debate about her own future on the timescale that was endorsed by

:00:02. > :00:06.our own people in May. Let us decide it in a proper fashion. Our

:00:06. > :00:11.task as a party is to convince the people of this nation that we can

:00:11. > :00:16.do better, to work at building a society which is not simply better

:00:16. > :00:21.than to, but a beacon of justice and fairness to the world. These

:00:21. > :00:27.things will come from hard work and sweat. Look around you, look at

:00:27. > :00:35.where we stand now. Tell me this was easy. It was not easy. It was

:00:35. > :00:40.80 years of hard work. We stand where we do today because of

:00:40. > :00:45.generations before us, because of party workers and campaigners who

:00:45. > :00:52.are not here today. We share a vision of a land without boundaries,

:00:52. > :01:02.of a people unshackled from low ambition and chances. We have a

:01:02. > :01:11.

:01:11. > :01:21.vision of a Scotland on bound. No limits for Scotland! -- -- a

:01:21. > :01:36.

:01:36. > :01:44.Scotland unbound. MUSIC: Let us Spec Together. --

:01:44. > :01:50.Let's Stick Together. Alex Salmond was saying that they

:01:50. > :01:53.were governing For The Common Good and governing well. He was speaking

:01:53. > :01:57.about Scotland's Reg energy resources. Turning to the

:01:57. > :02:05.referendum, he started to speak about how fiscal responsibility was

:02:05. > :02:10.a legitimate proposal. There you can see Mr Salmond being applauded

:02:10. > :02:15.as he speaks to some of the delegates. He ended his speech by

:02:15. > :02:25.saying we shall prevail. I am joined by Professor John Carter's

:02:25. > :02:28.

:02:28. > :02:32.from Strathclyde University. Your immediate thoughts. Alex Salmond

:02:32. > :02:35.has a remarkable talent to always paint a positive vision of where he

:02:35. > :02:40.is going and where the country is going, even when the current news

:02:40. > :02:44.is not very good. That was a very strong theme of his speech. The

:02:44. > :02:47.other thing about the SNP is that they had simply been providing

:02:47. > :02:53.Scotland with what most people regard as reasonably effective

:02:53. > :02:57.government. That was clearly endorsed by the election last May.

:02:57. > :03:00.One of the things Mr Salmond is trying to do it is, the first half

:03:00. > :03:05.was very much about defending the records of the Government, coming

:03:05. > :03:09.up with indications of new things he is going to do, linking that

:03:09. > :03:13.into his vision of a better Scotland and then trying to get

:03:13. > :03:21.people by saying, if you buy into this then you what to buy into our

:03:21. > :03:26.vision of no limits. He is trying to persuade people to move from

:03:26. > :03:31.admiring the SNP as a competent government to wanting to have their

:03:31. > :03:34.country, Scotland, independent as a means of delivering that vision. We

:03:34. > :03:39.will have to see whether any of this makes any impact on public

:03:39. > :03:44.opinion. I mentioned the point about fiscal

:03:44. > :03:54.responsibility being legitimate, but campaigning for full

:03:54. > :04:03.independence. There was a further indication of at two questioned

:04:03. > :04:10.referendum. At the end of the day, it might be a lot easier to win

:04:10. > :04:13.Devolution Max. He did not say that explicitly in the speech. He

:04:13. > :04:17.arguably moved closer than he has in the past, saying that it is not

:04:17. > :04:25.that bad an idea. There was one paragraph in a speech that, for the

:04:25. > :04:27.most part, was about good government and independence.

:04:27. > :04:30.Devolution Max made less of an appearance in the speech than

:04:30. > :04:33.perhaps we had been led to believe it would.

:04:33. > :04:42.Let us go straight back to the conference hall where Brian Taylor

:04:42. > :04:46.has rushed out. I thought it was an intriguing

:04:46. > :04:50.speech. There was the early section on jobs and the securing of jobs.

:04:50. > :04:53.That is the way the Scottish Government is proposing to act -

:04:53. > :04:57.going for the economy first and then the constitutional issue later.

:04:58. > :05:03.He is clearly placing that in the context of people's aspirations.

:05:03. > :05:06.There was also struck to to the speech. The two is in the

:05:06. > :05:10.aspirations of independence and for the in the interests of Scotland, I

:05:10. > :05:15.think he was making that tantamount to the two question in the

:05:15. > :05:24.referendum. I am joined by three MSPs who were observing the speech.

:05:24. > :05:28.Thank you for joining us. The stuff about energy and jobs and

:05:28. > :05:31.development, are really a lengthy section on that. I know he is

:05:31. > :05:37.evangelical about the subject. He clearly thinks it is important.

:05:37. > :05:39.Incredibly important. You cannot come up and deliver a speech just

:05:39. > :05:44.about constitutional future, you have to make an announcement about

:05:44. > :05:47.what really matters to the people of Scotland. It is jobs, security,

:05:47. > :05:52.youth unemployment. That came out with just as much passion as

:05:52. > :05:55.anything about the constitution. I thought it was fantastic to have so

:05:55. > :06:00.many announcements in one speech. You tackle jobs and the economy

:06:00. > :06:04.first because that is the people's concerns, rather than the party's

:06:04. > :06:12.concern. As he said at the beginning of the speech, the party

:06:12. > :06:16.is about the furtherance of Scottish interest. It is about what

:06:16. > :06:23.independence is for as well. I think what he is saying is that we

:06:23. > :06:27.are doing our very best within the constitutional arrangements. We are

:06:27. > :06:31.doing what we can but we are constrained by the constitutional

:06:31. > :06:35.arrangements. We could do so much more with independence, or even

:06:35. > :06:44.with full fiscal responsibility bus-stop and yet the focus now is

:06:44. > :06:48.on concerns about jobs with the referendum deferred.

:06:48. > :06:53.Yes, the focus is on the economy and any responsible government

:06:53. > :06:56.would focus on the economy. I loved when he said that the UK Government

:06:56. > :07:00.seemed to be focusing on setting up a sub-committee to do Scotland down

:07:00. > :07:06.when they should be focusing on the economy. That is an intriguing

:07:06. > :07:10.point. The vast bulk of the speech was about the Scottish Government's

:07:10. > :07:16.achievements, but it was the big attack lines upon Westminster that

:07:16. > :07:24.got the cheers. It is the sort of thing that gets the audience going.

:07:24. > :07:28.As Alex said, we have no limits. The problem with them Westminster

:07:28. > :07:33.Government is that they set limits. We have to establish the common

:07:33. > :07:37.good for the people of Scotland. What Alex was saying throughout his

:07:37. > :07:41.speech, and I think it came across well, is that we should have the

:07:41. > :07:46.ambition. We need the imagination to go forward. I think that came

:07:46. > :07:51.over loud and clear, basically. That phrase, the common good, is

:07:51. > :07:54.intriguing. It was used in his Scotland address on setting out the

:07:54. > :07:58.programme for government in the Scottish Parliament. He seems to be

:07:58. > :08:01.saying that you try to govern as sensibly as possible within the

:08:01. > :08:06.limits of devolution and then invite the voters to go that stage

:08:06. > :08:13.further. Is that the strategy? think the phrase is saying that

:08:13. > :08:16.there are limits and we have constraints on us at the moment. We

:08:16. > :08:20.need to do it with good governance. The programme is to try and ensure

:08:20. > :08:27.that we get that agenda right. We need to create a Scotland for the

:08:27. > :08:31.future. That is why his announcements today, even with the

:08:31. > :08:35.apprenticeships and focusing on the energy sector for those, is the way

:08:35. > :08:41.forward. It is the way forward for our young people. The future for

:08:41. > :08:49.Scotland is our young people. Jonathon Porrit, let us tackle the

:08:49. > :08:55.independence referendum issue. Your political opponents are saying --

:08:55. > :09:00.Humza Yousaf. The Tory conference is saying, have a referendum now,

:09:00. > :09:05.get it sorted. This is what I love, not just about politicians but some

:09:05. > :09:10.sections of the media, the utter hypocrisy of it. Independence is

:09:10. > :09:15.riding high in the opinion polls. Alex Allan's approval ratings are

:09:15. > :09:19.higher than all of the other leaders combined. Here we are,

:09:19. > :09:23.sticking to the promise that we made, no mandate upon which we were

:09:23. > :09:26.elected - take care of jobs and the economy, tackle youth unemployment

:09:26. > :09:30.and fuel poverty. In the meantime, we are making the case for

:09:30. > :09:36.independence with everything that we do. That referendum will come in

:09:36. > :09:40.the latter half, as it should. That promise to defer the

:09:40. > :09:45.referendum to the second half was not made accidentally, it was

:09:45. > :09:49.because you calculated that the economic circumstances might not be

:09:49. > :09:52.prepare we made the promise during the election. I am sure that, had

:09:52. > :09:56.we broke it, you would be standing here are accusing us of breaking

:09:56. > :10:00.promises. If I could just say something about Annabel Goldie. She

:10:00. > :10:06.does not represent people in Scotland. Her pronouncements today

:10:06. > :10:09.contradict William Hague, who said that the UK Government should

:10:09. > :10:13.postpone having a referendum on Europe because of economic

:10:13. > :10:18.circumstances. They are in complete disarray. As the First Minister

:10:18. > :10:21.says, we do not have an opposition in this country. They do not have a

:10:21. > :10:27.mandate. You will not is that the biggest cheer came when he

:10:27. > :10:30.underlined that fact - that they do not have a mandate. It is

:10:30. > :10:37.interesting that we are going to bring forward another claim of

:10:37. > :10:43.right for Scotland. He is going to put a motion to Parliament and

:10:43. > :10:49.challenge the other parties? Yes. The Liberals and the Labour Party

:10:49. > :10:52.signed it in the past. If they accept the sovereignty of the

:10:52. > :11:00.Scottish people they will sign it this time. Was that a bit of a

:11:00. > :11:09.stunt? Not at all. It goes back hundreds of years. We are carrying

:11:09. > :11:13.on a tradition in Scotland. This second option of fiscal

:11:13. > :11:19.responsibility, control of tax, spending and benefits, Mr Salmond

:11:19. > :11:25.made it clear that it is very much second best. Is that a fall-back

:11:25. > :11:29.option for the SNP? Is that why it would be in their referendum?

:11:29. > :11:39.think he made it very clear. The aspiration for our campaign is to

:11:39. > :11:48.

:11:48. > :11:57.walk out there and actually go for full independence in the referendum.

:11:57. > :12:03.Why is it in there. Why do you not just do yes or not to independence?

:12:03. > :12:06.Alex said that we are taking things square on. He said we are for

:12:06. > :12:09.independence. At the end of the day, it is up to the people of Scotland.

:12:09. > :12:13.We are a party who will listen to Scotland's people and give them the

:12:13. > :12:17.choice. That is something that is not happening in Westminster. They

:12:17. > :12:20.are trying to dictate what should happen in Scotland at the moment.

:12:20. > :12:30.We're saying, let's listen to the people and tell them what we are

:12:30. > :12:38.about, give them a clear message. You listen to the Scottish people,

:12:38. > :12:41.but if either independence or full fiscal autonomy is supported, it is

:12:41. > :12:45.not the Scottish Government would have to act, it is the UK

:12:45. > :12:48.Government. How would they feel mandated when they have opposed the

:12:48. > :12:52.idea of having that question on the ballot paper? The UK Government

:12:52. > :12:57.have made it clear that they will accept the views of the Scottish

:12:57. > :13:01.people. On a yes or not to independence. They do not want the

:13:01. > :13:04.second question. It is really not for them to decide, it is for the

:13:04. > :13:09.Scottish people, as the First Minister made very clear. They do

:13:09. > :13:17.not have a mandate in Scotland. The coalition parties got less than 20%

:13:17. > :13:21.of the vote. They are held in complete contempt. I hear the point

:13:21. > :13:24.about mandate and listening to the views of the people, but if it is

:13:24. > :13:28.full fiscal autonomy it is the UK Government to would have to

:13:28. > :13:37.implement it. Should they not been -- be involved in drawing up the

:13:37. > :13:41.referendum? The reason it could be put on the paper is because we do

:13:41. > :13:51.not restrict the people. The SNP campaigns for independence but we

:13:51. > :13:55.

:13:55. > :14:01.want to hear the voice of the Scottish people. That will be

:14:01. > :14:05.demanded and will have to listen to the boss of the people. These

:14:05. > :14:10.activists, on those cold, wet and windy days when they have put

:14:10. > :14:17.leaflets through the door, that will be what they want from the

:14:17. > :14:27.people of Scotland - independence. Thank you for joining me. Back to

:14:27. > :14:28.

:14:28. > :14:33.I am still joined by Professor John Curtice here. One interesting point

:14:33. > :14:37.about the claim of rights, Brian was asking if that was a stunt.

:14:37. > :14:40.What do you think could be happening with this? One of the sub

:14:40. > :14:45.things of Alex Salmond's speech was in a sense this continuing debate

:14:45. > :14:48.going on, and there was a story in The Scotsman this this morning,

:14:48. > :14:50.alleging the London Government might want to take on the

:14:50. > :14:55.referendum itself. Hold the referendum instead of the Scottish

:14:55. > :15:01.parliament. And in so doing, as you heard there, only to put on the

:15:01. > :15:04.issue of independence on that referendum, so there have been

:15:04. > :15:08.various noises to suggest maybe the UK Government in parliament might

:15:08. > :15:11.decide to try and taeupbg over the -- take over the referendum process.

:15:11. > :15:15.Alex Salmond was laying down clearly in that speech that in his

:15:15. > :15:20.view those moves are illegitimate. After all, I guess he would argue

:15:20. > :15:24.none of those parties had the idea in their 2010 manifestoes which is

:15:24. > :15:27.the mandate which the UK Government has, let alone the 2011 ones. His

:15:27. > :15:30.point about putting the claim of right before the Scottish

:15:30. > :15:33.parliament, in part, as you have seen, it's to embarrass Labour and

:15:33. > :15:36.the Liberal Democrats, to accept that's a claim of right and he's

:15:36. > :15:39.suggesting if indeed Scotland does have the right to determine its own

:15:39. > :15:45.future, then therefore, it should be the Scottish Government in

:15:45. > :15:49.parliament that determines how that future is decided. I think the

:15:49. > :15:52.difficulty is, again you saw that in the recent discussion, John

:15:52. > :16:00.Major's Government over 20 years ago accepted that Scotland did

:16:01. > :16:05.indeed have the right to cecede from the union. It's rather more

:16:05. > :16:08.difficult to argue that Scotland has the unilateral right to

:16:08. > :16:13.determine the terms of its membership of the union. And

:16:13. > :16:16.clearly if Scotland were to vote in favour of devolution max people in

:16:16. > :16:20.England and the Government would have to be willing to facilitate it,

:16:20. > :16:24.so that extent it's difficult to suggest that Scotland can simply

:16:24. > :16:28.assert its right within the union as opposed to its right to

:16:28. > :16:33.independence. This is a point that's been hammered home by the

:16:33. > :16:36.SNP at the moment about Westminster having no legitimacy, we have been

:16:36. > :16:40.seeing that with investigations and so on. It's a point they're really

:16:40. > :16:43.trying to push and Mr Salmond was pushing it in his speech. They are,

:16:43. > :16:49.of course in making those comments they're always referring to the

:16:49. > :16:59.outcome of the 2011 Scottish election, even there the SNP didn't

:16:59. > :16:59.

:16:59. > :17:02.get over half the vote, 44 or 45%. They don't say much about the 2010

:17:02. > :17:06.general election when the Labour Party got over 40%. The SNP around

:17:06. > :17:09.20. The Liberal Democrats weren't that far behind. Of course, the UK

:17:10. > :17:12.Government will argue that's where its mandate comes from. Tories and

:17:12. > :17:18.Liberal Democrats in Scotland didn't do that well, but equally

:17:18. > :17:21.the SNP also didn't dominate Scotland when we were last electing

:17:21. > :17:28.UK Government, as opposed to Scottish one. Thank you very much.

:17:28. > :17:31.I am delighted to say that I am joined now by the SNP deputy leader

:17:31. > :17:34.and Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. Thank you very much for

:17:34. > :17:37.joining me. A rousing speech from the First Minister there to

:17:37. > :17:40.delegates. Can you tell me more about this claim of right that we

:17:40. > :17:46.have just been discussing, is it a clever trick to smoke out the

:17:46. > :17:50.opposition? No, it's a statement of principle. It's 20 years since

:17:50. > :17:54.Labour and the Liberals were happy to sign up to the principle that

:17:54. > :17:58.it's the Scottish people who gets to decide their own future. So,

:17:58. > :18:01.it's a great idea to put that wfr the -- before the Scottish

:18:01. > :18:05.parliament again and give all parties the opportunity to sign up

:18:05. > :18:08.to that very simple but very powerful and important principle

:18:08. > :18:12.that nobody has a right to decide Scotland's future, except the

:18:12. > :18:17.Scottish people themselves. We have been hearing a lot about this

:18:17. > :18:23.second question. Is this a way to make sure that Labour and even the

:18:23. > :18:26.Conservatives sign up to devolution Max, that they set out their

:18:26. > :18:31.support? Well, the First Minister made very clear in his speech there

:18:31. > :18:34.that in the referendum the SNP will be full square behind the case for

:18:34. > :18:40.independence. We will campaign for independence because we believe

:18:40. > :18:44.that is the best way to build a better future for Scotland. But

:18:44. > :18:47.fiscal autonomy, call it what you want, it's a option. We are not

:18:47. > :18:50.hostile to the idea of that question on the ballot paper,

:18:50. > :18:54.because we are Democrats, we believe it is the right of the

:18:54. > :18:58.Scottish people to decide. Of course, it's for those who advocate

:18:58. > :19:01.that option to define that option and to argue for it. OK, we have

:19:01. > :19:05.been hearing from the First Minister about fiscal

:19:05. > :19:09.responsibility. He was saying it was a legitimate proposal. This is

:19:09. > :19:12.one tiny little piece of information that we have received

:19:12. > :19:17.from the First Minister about the independence referendum that there

:19:17. > :19:21.probably could be that second question there. Well, what the

:19:21. > :19:25.First Minister was saying today was that the case for fiscal autonomy,

:19:25. > :19:28.for the Scottish parliament having full economic powers, it's a

:19:28. > :19:33.legitimate one and all the extra powers that would come with that

:19:33. > :19:36.are good powers to have and they're necessary powers to have. But our

:19:36. > :19:41.view is that they're not in themselves enough, because if we

:19:41. > :19:44.just had full fiscal autonomy we wouldn't have the powers to get

:19:44. > :19:48.triedent off the Clyde, we wouldn't be able to ensure we were never

:19:48. > :19:52.again dragged into an illegal war, so we need as a country the full

:19:52. > :19:56.powers of independence. But we believe that it's not for any

:19:56. > :19:59.politician, certainly not for any Westminster politician, to decide

:19:59. > :20:04.Scotland's future. That right lies with the Scottish people and they

:20:04. > :20:08.have to look at the options available to them. Mr Salmond also

:20:08. > :20:12.spoke that he would campaign full square for independence. Why don't

:20:12. > :20:19.you just have one question then, why don't you make it a simple yes-

:20:19. > :20:23.no? Well, we said we are not hostile to having the devo-max

:20:23. > :20:27.option but we will see what transspires in the fullness of time

:20:27. > :20:30.but there's absolutely no doubt that the SNP's favoured option and

:20:30. > :20:33.the option we will campaign for is independence and we will do that

:20:33. > :20:37.for the reasons the First Minister outlined this afternoon, the

:20:37. > :20:41.reasons I have just repeated, because we believe financial powers

:20:41. > :20:46.for the Scottish parliament and the Scottish people are essential. They

:20:46. > :20:49.are necessary. Powers that are job- creating powers, we need those

:20:49. > :20:52.powers to support and create jobs to get the economy moving. We

:20:52. > :20:56.believe they're not enough. We need the full powers of independence and

:20:56. > :20:59.that's what the SNP will campaign for. In his chat with the MSPs they

:20:59. > :21:03.were speaking about why they would have the referendum in the second

:21:03. > :21:06.half of the parliament that had been a promise made during the

:21:06. > :21:09.election campaign. Are you now regretting that promise? You

:21:09. > :21:12.probably took a clever calculation before the election that the world

:21:13. > :21:16.economy would start to improve by that point and so you would

:21:16. > :21:18.probably get a bit of a better showing, showing you were a good

:21:18. > :21:23.Government, but looking at what's happening at the moment looks like

:21:23. > :21:27.we are entering long years of economic stagnation? Well, we won a

:21:27. > :21:31.majority in that election so thra's not much about the campaign that we

:21:31. > :21:35.need to regret. We made it very clear in the election campaign that

:21:35. > :21:39.the referendum would take place in the latter half, the second half of

:21:39. > :21:43.the parliament. The people of Scotland endorsed that timetable in

:21:43. > :21:47.the overwhelming mandate that they gave us in the election. So, I

:21:47. > :21:50.think we will do something that people an say politicians should do,

:21:50. > :21:53.we will stick to our promise. The referendum will be in the second

:21:53. > :21:56.half of the parliament. Indeed, it's a very vague timetable, isn't

:21:56. > :22:01.it? And everything about the referendum is vague, we have not

:22:01. > :22:05.heard much from the First Minister, Michael Moore posed those six

:22:05. > :22:14.questions to the First Minister talking about what happened to bank

:22:14. > :22:17.regulation, which currency would Scotland adopt, how many inherit in

:22:17. > :22:20.pension liability, and what would be the debt and how much eupd pence

:22:20. > :22:23.would cost. -- independence would cost. We are never hearing anything

:22:23. > :22:26.about these questions. These issues were laid out in the White Paper

:22:26. > :22:29.the the Scottish Government published a couple of years ago. I

:22:29. > :22:33.think Michael Moore would be better advised to start answering some of

:22:33. > :22:36.the questions about the deFire Brigadeenceies of the Scottish --

:22:36. > :22:39.deFire Brigadeenceies of the Scotland Bill he is taking through

:22:39. > :22:42.the House of Commons. The Scottish parliament will ledge late for a

:22:43. > :22:48.referendum in due course and the detail will be fully debated at

:22:48. > :22:50.that time. But at the heart of the case for a referendum is that very

:22:50. > :22:54.very simple proposition that it gives the people of Scotland the

:22:54. > :22:58.right to decide their own future. That was something the Liberals and

:22:58. > :23:01.Labour were happy to sign up to 20 years ago. Let's see if they're

:23:01. > :23:04.happy to sign up to that principle now. The First Minister had some

:23:04. > :23:09.major announcements about the economy in his speech. He was

:23:09. > :23:14.talking about governing well and for the common wheel. He mentioned

:23:14. > :23:20.fuel poverty and what the SNP were doing to tackle fuel poverty. We

:23:20. > :23:23.heard from Labour earlier this month that there had been a

:23:23. > :23:27.reversal in as they put it savage cuts to fuel poverty budget,

:23:27. > :23:31.efforts to tackle fuel poverty. Is Mr Salmond being like a supermarket

:23:31. > :23:36.in some sense, that he cuts the fuel poverty budget and then he

:23:36. > :23:41.pretends that it's going up in 2015, is this a sneaky approach to

:23:41. > :23:45.governing well? I don't think there's much credibility in much

:23:45. > :23:48.that Labour says these days. It's recognised right across the

:23:48. > :23:52.spectrum that our measures and initiatives to tackle fuel poverty

:23:52. > :23:56.are amongst the best right across these islands and the First

:23:56. > :24:00.Minister announced today that the number of people benefiting from

:24:00. > :24:03.these initiatives will go up from 500,000 to 700,000. But the real

:24:03. > :24:09.point the First Minister was making today, I am sure it's a point not

:24:09. > :24:13.lost on anybody in Scotland, that we have these appalling levels of

:24:13. > :24:19.fuel poverty amid energy plenty. That's one of the most compelling

:24:19. > :24:22.reasons for the extra powers that independence would bring, would an

:24:22. > :24:26.oil-rich country, a renewable- energy rich country, we shouldn't

:24:26. > :24:30.have people living in fuel poverty. We were hearing about governing

:24:30. > :24:33.well and he does have a reputation for having a steady hand on the

:24:33. > :24:37.tiller, but he has been buffeted over the past few months by the

:24:37. > :24:42.opposition to the anti-sectarian legislation and we are hearing

:24:42. > :24:46.about divisions in the party over gay marriage. Is the SNP's ship not

:24:46. > :24:50.just a happy ship at the moment? think anybody who's at this

:24:50. > :24:54.conference will know the SNP ship is an extremely happy ship. It's

:24:54. > :24:58.also an extremely big ship. This is the biggest and best conference the

:24:58. > :25:01.SNP has ever had. One of the things the First Minister said in his

:25:01. > :25:06.speech, again I think will reasonate with people across the

:25:07. > :25:10.country, sometimes it takes guts to govern. You have to face up to

:25:10. > :25:14.challenging issues and deal with them, on the same-sex marriage

:25:14. > :25:17.issue no decisions have been taken there. We are in the middle of a

:25:17. > :25:22.consultation and listening very clearly and carefully to all the

:25:22. > :25:26.views that are expressed. On sectarianism, I don't know many

:25:26. > :25:29.people in Scotland who don't think this is one of the demons of

:25:29. > :25:32.Scotland's past, that we really do have to face. Most people think the

:25:32. > :25:37.Scottish Government is doing the right thing in facing up to that

:25:37. > :25:44.problem and seeking to solve it once and for all. Nicola Sturgeon,

:25:44. > :25:48.thank you very much. Now, the finance Finance Secretary

:25:48. > :25:52.was grilled by BBC online users yesterday in a live web-cast. Our

:25:52. > :25:55.political editor put your questions to John Swinney on a range of

:25:55. > :25:58.subjects from gay marriage to independence. Here is a flavour of

:25:58. > :26:03.that chat beginning with a question on why there were no plans to

:26:03. > :26:06.introduce a local income tax during this parliamentary session.

:26:06. > :26:09.What we said in the election campaign was that we would discuss

:26:09. > :26:12.during the course of this parliament with other parties and

:26:12. > :26:17.with other stakeholders and with the communities of Scotland, how we

:26:17. > :26:21.could move from the council tax to a position where we had an approach

:26:21. > :26:24.that was based on the ability to pay. What's to discuss? You are in

:26:24. > :26:31.favour of a local income tax during the previous parliament as well.

:26:31. > :26:36.You said it was the lack of a majority that was thwarting you.

:26:36. > :26:40.The difficulty with that we said we wouldn't ledge late for such a

:26:40. > :26:43.proposition... Why not, if it's such a good idea? Why not is

:26:43. > :26:46.because we acknowledged there were a number of complexities around the

:26:46. > :26:50.issue of - there's a lots of complexities we have to overcome. A

:26:50. > :26:53.lot of dialogue that's that's to be undertaken with the UK Government

:26:53. > :26:57.on these questions and we wanted to get that right as part of a wider

:26:57. > :27:02.debate within Scotland which would take place during this parliament.

:27:02. > :27:06.The dialogue being if council tax goes, the benefit goes as well?

:27:06. > :27:10.There's a material change in that issue, because on 1st April 2013

:27:10. > :27:13.the UK Government proposes to devolve council tax benefit to the

:27:13. > :27:17.Scottish Government. So in the course of this parliament there

:27:17. > :27:21.would be a material change to the council tax benefit arrangements so

:27:21. > :27:23.that argument that was used by the previous Labour Government to

:27:23. > :27:26.thwart us would not be relevant because you would have the

:27:26. > :27:30.devolution of council tax benefit. How would you still have benefit if

:27:30. > :27:33.you have scrapped council tax? money would be transferred as a

:27:33. > :27:37.block to the Scottish Government. The other issue which we have to

:27:37. > :27:41.consider and one of the reasons why we decided that the local income

:27:41. > :27:46.tax shouldn't be pursued during this parliament is clearly we have

:27:46. > :27:49.some economic uncertainties, given the wider economic challenges that

:27:49. > :27:54.we face, some public spending reductions which make it very

:27:54. > :27:59.difficult to implement this at this time. And also we have the change

:27:59. > :28:03.to income tax which are coming as a kopbs kopbs kopbs -- consequence of

:28:03. > :28:07.the proposals in the Scotland Bill. All of that is an element of

:28:07. > :28:10.complexity and uncertainty we have to navigate through. It's why we

:28:10. > :28:14.are having the discussion during this parliament. If local income

:28:14. > :28:17.tax is such a wonderful idea and it doesn't stand up when the economics

:28:17. > :28:20.circumstances are troublesome, then it doesn't seem perhaps it is such

:28:20. > :28:23.a fabulous idea, maybe it's not workable? I am saying about when

:28:24. > :28:27.it's the moment of implement--ation that you have to get correct.

:28:27. > :28:31.are committed to it still? Government is committed to local

:28:31. > :28:35.income tax. But not in this parliament? We said in the election

:28:35. > :28:38.campaign in May we wouldn't ledge late for it during the course of

:28:38. > :28:41.this parliamentary parliamentary term and we are remaining faithful

:28:41. > :28:43.to that commit. When we say one thing to people in May we honour

:28:43. > :28:50.that in the course of the parliamentary term. A question from

:28:50. > :28:53.south of the border also on finance, how you the Scottish Government can

:28:53. > :28:56.afford free preskrepgses and university education, when they

:28:56. > :29:06.can't in England? He says the people in England are having to pay

:29:06. > :29:08.

:29:08. > :29:12.The Scottish Government is better able to manage its resources than

:29:12. > :29:16.the UK Government. Spending in Scotland is much higher per head of

:29:16. > :29:21.population. It is not. There is a comparable level of public

:29:21. > :29:25.expenditure north and south of the border, in terms of the areas of

:29:25. > :29:32.responsibility that we have. We're putting our priorities in place to

:29:32. > :29:42.provide a range of services that are important to people. Free

:29:42. > :29:45.optical test, for example - people say that is ridiculous. It costs us

:29:45. > :29:52.about �26 was that if you were to get that examination in the health

:29:52. > :29:57.service, it would cost a great deal more. One simple lie test can

:29:57. > :30:01.detect four major medical conditions that can be averted a.

:30:01. > :30:05.Some of these things that are described as free actually have a

:30:05. > :30:10.real benefit that is of significant impact upon the health and well-

:30:10. > :30:14.being of the people of Scotland. Will there be questions over some

:30:14. > :30:19.of these services in the future? The expert report that was done for

:30:19. > :30:24.you government suggested that free bus passes for the over-sixties,

:30:24. > :30:27.even free personal care, may not be up for -- may not be affordable in

:30:27. > :30:33.the long term. The review gave us a range of

:30:34. > :30:41.options, many of which I took. The principal one was to apply

:30:41. > :30:45.constrains the public sector pay. It has been applied to in the

:30:46. > :30:50.course of the current budget period. They came up with a range of

:30:50. > :30:56.options that were greater than the savings I was required to make. If

:30:56. > :31:02.you look at the three-year spending programme, it demonstrates

:31:02. > :31:09.absolutely that the services we provide, with a free bus passes,

:31:09. > :31:12.free personal care, these are affordable and are fully provided

:31:12. > :31:15.for within the provisions I have made.

:31:15. > :31:21.Bruce from Glasgow wonders what you would do with the powers of

:31:21. > :31:27.independence. Particularly, he asks if you believe in a fairer Scotland

:31:27. > :31:30.where the wealthy pay greater tax? We are believers in progressive

:31:30. > :31:34.taxation. The key judgment is to make sure you're gathering tax from

:31:34. > :31:38.those with the ability to pay. We have to make sure we have

:31:38. > :31:41.sufficient balance within our society and within the taxation

:31:41. > :31:45.system that enables us to generate tax revenues from those who can

:31:45. > :31:49.afford to pay for them to support public services that mattered to

:31:49. > :31:53.the people of our country and to invest in the long-term future of

:31:53. > :31:56.our economy. If you're asking me whether the balance of taxation of

:31:56. > :32:03.the present moment is an indication of something that is relatively

:32:03. > :32:07.correct in terms of personal taxation, I am probably comfortable

:32:07. > :32:17.with the balance of taxation we have that the present time. I want

:32:17. > :32:17.

:32:17. > :32:20.to tackle the issue of people on low incomes. I think the overall

:32:20. > :32:24.balance is not far away from which it needs to be.

:32:24. > :32:32.Brian Taylor, speaking to the Finance Secretary yesterday. The

:32:32. > :32:35.Treasury spokesman, Stewart Hosie, joins me now. We are heaving from

:32:35. > :32:42.the finance secretary about why a local income tax could not be

:32:42. > :32:45.introduced and why it will be defer to the next Parliament. Is that a

:32:45. > :32:50.definite promise that council tax will be scrapped and that local

:32:50. > :32:56.income tax will be introduced? John Swinney is telling you that,

:32:56. > :33:03.that is the plan. Why could it not be introduced for

:33:03. > :33:08.this session? I am not familiar with the ins and outs of it. I

:33:08. > :33:13.heard a bit of your package. We have frozen the council tax for a

:33:13. > :33:19.number of years. It will be frozen for the rest of this Parliament.

:33:20. > :33:24.The idea is to support progressive taxation. It makes sense to stick

:33:24. > :33:27.to the timescale that John laid out. A iron surprised you're not

:33:27. > :33:35.familiar with the proposals. The big worry was that there would

:33:35. > :33:38.be a rather large funding gap. what John has done is to put in

:33:38. > :33:43.place the council tax freeze. We need to make sure that stays in

:33:43. > :33:48.place to help people in the short- term. Then, when we are in the

:33:48. > :33:54.position to deliver local income tax, which is fair and progressive,

:33:54. > :33:59.that is what we do. When you deliver a local income tax,

:33:59. > :34:06.how would it be collected? Would you use the powers that Parliament

:34:06. > :34:09.has at the moment or perhaps wait for something from the Calman

:34:09. > :34:16.Commission, which have been against? There is a big problem in

:34:16. > :34:22.terms of income tax that we would have effectively 50% of the base

:34:22. > :34:25.rate with a smaller percentage of the 40% rate and the smallest

:34:25. > :34:32.percentage of the highest rate. That is an imbalance in terms of

:34:32. > :34:34.income tax. It also causes an imbalance in the basket of tax is

:34:35. > :34:39.that Scotland ought to have control of. There are various technical

:34:39. > :34:43.reasons why that poses a problem. In terms of collecting income tax,

:34:43. > :34:49.of course, you would look use the income tax collection methods that

:34:49. > :34:52.are in place at the time to do that. We were hearing from the Sports

:34:52. > :34:55.Minister about how Scotland might be short changed in the future,

:34:55. > :35:04.when it comes to the Commonwealth Games, compared to the Olympic

:35:04. > :35:14.Games. We want equity on taxation issues. The fact that athletes for

:35:14. > :35:16.the Olympics will not be taxed on their in -- on their income, but

:35:16. > :35:21.have become to the Commonwealth Games they will be. It is not

:35:21. > :35:25.acceptable or equitable. The sport Minister was saying that

:35:25. > :35:31.some proposals for Olympic taxation are not fair and equitable. How can

:35:31. > :35:37.you address that? It is quite important. When big international

:35:37. > :35:41.sporting events, particular sporting individuals come here and

:35:41. > :35:46.they are anxious about the money that they make here. Governments

:35:46. > :35:50.encourage them to come and take part and the tax burden is set

:35:50. > :35:53.aside. It seems to happen for the Olympic Games but they have not

:35:53. > :35:58.made the same consideration for the Commonwealth Games in Scotland.

:35:58. > :36:03.Obviously, pressure needs to be brought to bear on the Westminster

:36:03. > :36:05.Government. It is a perfectly sensible thing for the minister to

:36:05. > :36:09.be saying. You are trying to bring that

:36:09. > :36:12.pressure to the Westminster Government. The pressure from the

:36:12. > :36:17.Westminster Government is very much on you when it comes to explaining

:36:17. > :36:23.the costs of independence. I was speaking to Nicola Sturgeon about

:36:23. > :36:28.Michael Moore's six questions by Alex Salmond. No. 6 - how much

:36:28. > :36:32.would independence cost? What is the bottom Line? For 30 years,

:36:32. > :36:40.Scotland run a budget surplus on average. Meanwhile, the UK went

:36:40. > :36:45.into the downturn �500 billion in debt. Even the figures for last

:36:45. > :36:49.year, we put in more than the UK and we get less than the average

:36:49. > :36:53.out of the UK. We make a contribution. In terms of spending

:36:53. > :36:57.the same money in in in -- in an independent Scotland, we think we

:36:57. > :37:02.would get more value for it. More importantly, we would have the

:37:03. > :37:09.ability to take decisions, whether on tax or social policy on anything

:37:09. > :37:13.else, to deliver better outcomes for the Scottish people.

:37:13. > :37:16.There are decisions that will not be in your hands to take, even if

:37:16. > :37:20.there is independence. John Swinney said Scotland would not join the

:37:20. > :37:24.euro. Essentially, a monetary policy would continue to be

:37:24. > :37:29.controlled by the Bank of England, even in an independent Scotland.

:37:29. > :37:39.think it makes perfect sense to stay within the Stirling's on for

:37:39. > :37:47.

:37:47. > :37:57.the foreseeable future. -- within Stirling for the foreseeable future.

:37:57. > :37:57.

:37:57. > :38:07.-- sterling. You would not have control of

:38:07. > :38:12.

:38:12. > :38:17.interest rates on anything. It is every single tax, duty and levy.

:38:17. > :38:22.You could make sure that cheap, high-strength alcohol was not

:38:22. > :38:31.available and that other things were taxed more. There are lots of

:38:31. > :38:35.things that we can do with fiscal levers.

:38:35. > :38:40.As Danny Alexander pointed out, Scotland's share of the national

:38:40. > :38:47.debt would be �65 billion. How will we pay for that? We are already

:38:47. > :38:52.paying for our share of the UK's one trillion pounds debt. It is due

:38:52. > :38:56.to rise to 1.5 trillion pounds, most of which was created before

:38:56. > :39:01.this downturn and before the banking crisis. We are already

:39:01. > :39:05.contributing are full share to that. We have always said, and it is

:39:05. > :39:09.quite right, that we would take our full the glossy picture of any debt

:39:09. > :39:15.and we would serve as it like any other independent country, with the

:39:15. > :39:19.advantage, of course, of having a one trillion pounds asset of

:39:19. > :39:21.untapped North Sea oil and gas, sitting there for future

:39:21. > :39:25.generations. Thank you for joining us.

:39:25. > :39:29.I am still joined by Professor John Carter's from Strathclyde

:39:29. > :39:33.University. Interesting that Stewart Hosie was not quite up to

:39:33. > :39:38.date with local income tax there. He was pretty definite that the SNP

:39:38. > :39:42.would introduce it in the next parliamentary session. After all,

:39:42. > :39:47.council tax is pretty unpopular. There are a couple of developments

:39:47. > :39:54.that will make it possible to introduce the local income tax. The

:39:54. > :40:02.first is the decision of the UK Government to devolve council tax

:40:02. > :40:06.benefit. Previously, the problem was that if Scotland introduced a

:40:06. > :40:11.local income tax but council tax benefit was a ball that would mean

:40:11. > :40:17.that Scotland would lose the amount of money in council tax benefit

:40:17. > :40:20.that normally flows to Scotland. In order to introduce local income tax,

:40:20. > :40:23.you would have to use the tax varying powers but the Scottish

:40:23. > :40:28.Parliament, which is a maximum of 3p on the standard rate. The

:40:28. > :40:38.revenue from that would not be sufficient to cover the rent -- the

:40:38. > :40:42.revenue lost from abolition of council tax. Those two things. The

:40:42. > :40:46.UK Government, ironically, has made decisions that are going to make it

:40:46. > :40:51.possible for the SNP to introduce one of its own choice policies.

:40:51. > :40:56.On the issue of monetary policy, the SNP would still have Scotland

:40:56. > :41:00.in the pound. Stewart Hosie seemed to think that they would have

:41:00. > :41:07.control, but a lot still remains in London. One has to ask a question

:41:07. > :41:12.about that. One of the questions about the eurozone crisis is that

:41:12. > :41:16.you cannot have monetary union without at least some degree of

:41:16. > :41:20.fiscal co-ordination. The lesson from grace is that if a country

:41:20. > :41:26.overspends it helps to drive everyone down, including the

:41:26. > :41:31.confidence of people in that country. The SNP are saying that,

:41:31. > :41:38.either way, an independent Scotland would remain part of a currency

:41:38. > :41:44.union. It would be there remained in the pound bought it would join

:41:44. > :41:47.the euro. If Scotland retain the pound, questions would clearly be

:41:47. > :41:55.raised in London as to what is going to be done to ensure that

:41:55. > :42:00.Scotland's fiscal stance is not so at variance with what they UK

:42:00. > :42:04.Government regards as in the interest of Stirling, and some kind

:42:04. > :42:09.of fiscal restraint might be required. Recent developments have

:42:09. > :42:13.somewhat undermined the argument that monetary union is possible but

:42:13. > :42:18.that you can still have full fiscal freedom. Scotland may have more

:42:18. > :42:21.fiscal freedom under that arrangement, but the idea of fiscal

:42:21. > :42:24.-- full fiscal freedom is rather more doubtful than it was a year

:42:24. > :42:27.ago. Scotland's councillors will be the

:42:28. > :42:32.first politicians to go over the top end next year's local elections.

:42:32. > :42:36.They could be the ones who bear the brunt of an angry electorate.

:42:36. > :42:40.Budget cuts mean slashed services and councillors will have to answer

:42:40. > :42:44.for schools that close, roads that go on repaired or bins that do not

:42:44. > :42:49.get empty. Back to Brian Taylor, who is joined by three councillors

:42:49. > :42:55.who will be in the firing line. Thank you very much.

:42:55. > :42:59.Let us go first to Todd Buchanan from Edinburgh. What sort of cuts

:42:59. > :43:09.are pending in Newry area? And �92 million of cuts were announced

:43:09. > :43:11.

:43:11. > :43:14.recently. I think it will go up to about �140 million. -- �140 million.

:43:14. > :43:18.We are trying to make sure that we deliver the services that the

:43:18. > :43:27.people of Edinburgh made. What is happening in East Lothian?

:43:27. > :43:30.We actually saw this coming several years ago. We started to reduce our

:43:30. > :43:37.personnel by natural wastage. We also came up with good ideas about

:43:37. > :43:43.saving money. How many jobs have gone? About 600.

:43:43. > :43:46.What is happening in Glasgow in terms of cuts? In Glasgow, the SNP

:43:46. > :43:54.are still in opposition, so it is not really in our hands to make

:43:54. > :43:57.that decision at the moment. I like how you have ambition there! There

:43:57. > :44:06.is a voluntary redundancy programme going on in the council.

:44:07. > :44:11.Unfortunately, that means a lot of Do you feel that voluntary

:44:11. > :44:17.redundancy will have to become compulsory redundancy, even if you

:44:17. > :44:20.are fortunate enough to take control? I would hope not. It would

:44:20. > :44:24.be for us when we come into administration to look at the books

:44:24. > :44:29.and see the situation. You can't make that promise? We can't, we

:44:29. > :44:33.would hope not. You say you have staved it off by pre-empting the

:44:33. > :44:43.issue. We have reducing a lot of our overheads but also our leader

:44:43. > :44:46.has said we will not have redundancies... Not compulsory. We

:44:46. > :44:49.are at that point we have lost enough people that we are out of

:44:49. > :44:51.balance and we have to look at who is doing which job where. We

:44:52. > :44:54.haven't necessarily lost the right people in the right places. I hear

:44:54. > :44:59.what you are saying about protecting the frontline but

:44:59. > :45:06.services are going to be squeezed. Is that not going to mean people

:45:06. > :45:11.are angry with the council here, they're angry anywhere because of a

:45:11. > :45:14.certain transport project. The The SNP were never in favour of this

:45:14. > :45:17.transport project. But yes it is going to be very difficult.

:45:17. > :45:22.Everybody has to acknowledge that. The settlement that John Swinney

:45:22. > :45:25.gets in the block grant is going to directly affect the number of

:45:25. > :45:29.people employed in public service. You got to be going to these voters

:45:29. > :45:37.in May and saying, and it's not four years' time as it is with

:45:37. > :45:41.Holyrood, it's in May, and saying we are going to have to cut jobs...

:45:41. > :45:45.We have lost the link to Inverness there, but I am still joined by

:45:45. > :45:48.Professor John Curtice from Strathclyde University. How much

:45:48. > :45:51.have we learned from the SNP during this conference about a future

:45:51. > :45:56.referendum? I think we have learned one important thing, but we have

:45:56. > :46:00.also got one still big doubt that arises as a consequence, the thing

:46:00. > :46:04.we have learned is the SNP have definitely nailed their colours to

:46:04. > :46:09.the mast of a two-question referendum, one on both

:46:09. > :46:16.independence and so-called devolution Max, they would have to

:46:16. > :46:20.do a lot of rowing back now if that weren't to be the case. They've now

:46:20. > :46:24.pretty much committed themselves. But at the same time we are still

:46:24. > :46:28.not entirely clear as to how far they're going to be willing to back

:46:28. > :46:31.devolution Max. We need to bear in mind here in their most recent

:46:31. > :46:37.White Paper on this they said there would and two-question referendum,

:46:37. > :46:39.it wouldn't be a case of put these in order. Say yes or no to

:46:39. > :46:43.independence and devolution Max. That raises an important question.

:46:43. > :46:46.It may well be that devolution Max is the SNP's second preference. But

:46:46. > :46:50.how are they going to tell people to vote in the referendum? They

:46:50. > :46:55.can't say yes, maybe. Yes to independence and maybe to

:46:55. > :46:59.devolution Max. They're either going to have to say yes-no, or

:46:59. > :47:03.yes-yes. We could expect the SNP to tell us soon whether the SNP

:47:03. > :47:07.campaign in their referendum is going to be a yes-yes campaign, or

:47:07. > :47:12.a yes-no one. Thank you. We have the line back to Inverness. Let's

:47:12. > :47:16.go back to Brian Taylor. Welcome back. I blame the cuts!

:47:16. > :47:21.Let's continue that discussion. That same question, isn't it going

:47:21. > :47:24.to be hell on wheels as a councillor or any party going to

:47:24. > :47:28.the electorate at a time of squeezed budgets and jobs going and

:47:28. > :47:30.services? No doubt it will be difficult and certain services will

:47:30. > :47:35.be trimmed but basically we are going to be able to sustain

:47:35. > :47:39.virtually all of our services. People understand, since we have

:47:39. > :47:44.not increased council tax, since we provided all the services they need,

:47:44. > :47:46.and since we are actually talking to them because we have been more

:47:46. > :47:51.interactive than a previous administration, we think we have

:47:51. > :47:54.got them on side. Who is going to take the blame, UK Government, John

:47:54. > :47:57.Swinney, Scottish Government with the allocation across councils or

:47:57. > :48:00.is it going to be the local authority that gets a slap in the

:48:00. > :48:03.face? To some extent it will be spread and there there be political

:48:03. > :48:08.people who will blame the ones they want. Fundamentally the UK

:48:08. > :48:13.Government. What do you make about that, it's not where buzz the the -

:48:13. > :48:16.- where does the blame lie, where in the eyes of the voters?

:48:16. > :48:19.depends which services they use and what matters most. Pensions, for

:48:20. > :48:22.example, they will look at the UK Government and that's clearly

:48:22. > :48:27.Westminster that's behind it. That's clearly their fault. That's

:48:27. > :48:30.a huge issue for a lot of people. When it comes to smaller issues

:48:30. > :48:33.that are perhaps important to some people, bin collection and things

:48:33. > :48:38.like that, it's important but not as important as money in your

:48:38. > :48:42.pocket. Do we have to look at new ways of providing services? We have

:48:42. > :48:49.to look at new ways to provide service if you have a reducing

:48:49. > :48:53.budget. You need to look at leveraging extra money from

:48:53. > :48:58.elsewhere. You don't regard that as breaking the public sector ethos,

:48:58. > :49:03.the unions would see it as that. in the SNP want public service jobs

:49:03. > :49:06.to provide public sector services. But we have to recognise there will

:49:06. > :49:10.be some back office provision and different ways of doing things that

:49:10. > :49:15.still have a majority of services provided by public sector workers.

:49:15. > :49:21.For example, we have not charged for ice-cream stands in East

:49:21. > :49:25.Lothian, that's an income, lots of things like that that can support

:49:25. > :49:31.our budget.. We have two museums staffed by volunteers, that are

:49:31. > :49:34.going to be cheaper to run than before. Are there some areas

:49:34. > :49:39.perhaps minor, major areas, from which authorities should simply

:49:39. > :49:43.withdraw? I don't think so. You need to have responsible, and I

:49:43. > :49:47.would argue for the NHS to be democratically accountable, for

:49:47. > :49:51.example, they should expand local Government. How about that question,

:49:51. > :49:55.some areas that local authorities should quit from? I don't think so.

:49:55. > :49:58.A lot of the confirms we provide are so vital to people that if you

:49:58. > :50:02.were to start to cut back on them then they would very much be missed.

:50:02. > :50:05.I can't think of any particular areas that Glasgow provides at the

:50:05. > :50:09.moment that it shouldn't be providing. There might be different

:50:09. > :50:12.ways of delivering things like Dave says, looking to get more income

:50:12. > :50:14.from different areas. We have been speaking to staff in Glasgow for

:50:14. > :50:18.sometime now looking for ideas where they think income generation

:50:19. > :50:23.might come from. It might not make a lot of money but lots of little

:50:23. > :50:27.ideas can bring in the cash that we need to make the gap. Thank you,

:50:27. > :50:32.especially for being patient during the ad break, as we might call it.

:50:32. > :50:37.Back to the studio for real. Thank you very much. A final time,

:50:37. > :50:40.Professor John Curtice is here with me, it was Alex Salmond addressing

:50:40. > :50:43.the party faithful in that speech when he was talking about

:50:43. > :50:48.independence or did he reach out to the wider public? That's always a

:50:48. > :50:53.choice for any party leader in their speech. Surprisingly, for the

:50:53. > :50:56.most part, Mr Salmon was talking to the audience and the hall, not the

:50:56. > :51:00.wider public. He almost seemed to be saying to his party, look you

:51:00. > :51:03.have heard this stuff about devolution Max but I believe

:51:03. > :51:07.independence, we will manage to win this referendum. It's almost trying

:51:07. > :51:11.to reassure the folk in the hall. There was much less in that

:51:11. > :51:14.particular the independence section of the speech trying to I think

:51:14. > :51:18.draw to the wider public to say these are the reasons why you

:51:18. > :51:21.should back it. I think that part of the SNP political strategy,

:51:21. > :51:24.there's still a lot to be written if Mr Salmond is going to take

:51:24. > :51:28.making speeches that are going to make those who are outside the

:51:28. > :51:33.existing nationalist fold want to vote for independence. Do you think

:51:33. > :51:40.in terms of appealing to people outside he was emphasising the

:51:40. > :51:44.governance section of... It's both the governance and his big ability,

:51:44. > :51:48.supreme attribute, is this constant ability to present a positive

:51:48. > :51:52.vision of where his country is going. Again as it were, we have to

:51:52. > :51:56.recreation in part of the SNP message of 1970s. It's Scotland's

:51:56. > :51:59.oil was a message that came in the time of the three-day week, the

:51:59. > :52:03.miners' strikes, etc when the economy was on its knees. Again as

:52:03. > :52:05.it were, the economy is on its knees, and again we see the

:52:06. > :52:09.nationalists saying yes there is a brighter future for Scotland, and

:52:09. > :52:14.it's to do with energy, it's partly to do with oil and it's partly to

:52:14. > :52:19.do with marine power. Again it's a similar political situation for the

:52:19. > :52:23.SNP. Trying to promote the vision of a popular Scotland against the

:52:23. > :52:27.backdrop of a poor economic situation. Thank you very much.

:52:27. > :52:30.Let's go back to Brian Taylor one final time in the conference hall,

:52:30. > :52:34.he has some of Scotland's top political journalists with him, I

:52:34. > :52:38.think. We certainly do. It's been a

:52:38. > :52:42.remarkable conference. I described it as ecstatic and euphoria with

:52:42. > :52:48.that contained controlled element that they are looking forward to

:52:48. > :52:52.the referendum, but perhaps some distant future, we don't know at

:52:52. > :52:59.the moment. There have been a couple of controversies on the go,

:52:59. > :53:05.we discussed the issue of gay marriage earlier, it was a rather

:53:05. > :53:09.choreographed discussion. And the anti-second tanianism Bill --

:53:09. > :53:13.sectarianism Bill. The Minister was really very blunt indeed in saying

:53:13. > :53:18.that the Bill was necessary and would be processed. Here is what

:53:18. > :53:24.she had to say. It is the people's will, and not

:53:24. > :53:31.only are they right, but we will in this party do the people's will on

:53:31. > :53:36.this. This is, after all, the 21st century. Not the 19th century.

:53:36. > :53:41.That's why the work we are doing is so essential. Is it going to be

:53:41. > :53:46.easy? Well, hell no. Because if it was easy, it would have been done

:53:46. > :53:53.decades ago. It isn't going to be easy. But just because it isn't

:53:53. > :54:03.easy, doesn't mean we don't do it. We are not feared, we are going to

:54:03. > :54:07.

:54:07. > :54:10.take this one head-on. Thank you very much. First of all,

:54:11. > :54:14.that speech, they're in some trouble on this Bill to say the

:54:14. > :54:19.least, they faced some criticism. But she's really going for it.

:54:19. > :54:24.she is. There isn't a great deal of political problem for the SNP on

:54:24. > :54:29.this in that the Labour Party agree with them basically, so any

:54:29. > :54:33.criticism... Except they now say withdraw the present Bill and bring

:54:33. > :54:37.in a better one. Start from scratch again, that's never going to happen.

:54:37. > :54:42.They agree with the outcome. Even at that, when it was brought up the

:54:42. > :54:46.objections to it, Salmond was quick to meet him and try and asaupblg

:54:46. > :54:49.the reservations he had about it. Brian, your paper The Herald has

:54:49. > :54:52.covered this Bill substantially, where do you think they are right

:54:52. > :54:57.now on it. She sounds very determined. Not only she sounds

:54:57. > :55:03.determined, but so too did Kenny MacAskill her boss, when he made it

:55:03. > :55:08.clear he would not ship from getting this legislation through.

:55:08. > :55:11.The difficulties are the football clubs in the main, the SPL and SFA

:55:11. > :55:14.and the fans group, they're all substantial objections, but these

:55:14. > :55:18.really have got to be overcome and I believe that this Government will

:55:18. > :55:21.do best to do that. It's going to take some negotiation, but this

:55:21. > :55:25.Bill is important and they will do their best to get it through.

:55:25. > :55:30.turn to the First Minister's speech. The two options on the referendum,

:55:30. > :55:34.but one that he really wants. he did say that fiscal independence

:55:34. > :55:39.was a legitimate position and that was... And right on to independence.

:55:39. > :55:42.That was as as broad as hint as you are going to get there was two

:55:42. > :55:47.questions. But whatever we are going to be campaigning for

:55:47. > :55:51.independence. As we were saying independence has been the word of

:55:52. > :55:55.this - sometimes the SNP is criticised for independence-lite,

:55:55. > :55:59.not mentioning it, but it has been hammered home this time. The SNP's

:55:59. > :56:03.rivals are demanning this referendum be put now, Alex Salmond

:56:03. > :56:07.doesn't seem that worried at these demands. Because it's not going to

:56:07. > :56:10.happen. If David Cameron tries to bully the timetable for the

:56:10. > :56:15.referendum Alex Salmond will turn that to his advantage, it will not

:56:15. > :56:18.play well in Scotland. The Scottish people, whether they are approve of

:56:19. > :56:22.independence, whether they want devolution Max or any variations,

:56:22. > :56:27.will not stand for a Westminster Government saying you will do this

:56:27. > :56:32.on our terms. Alex Salmond would be able to use that card to his own

:56:32. > :56:35.advantage. How about this idea, that he is going to take the claim

:56:35. > :56:39.of right, the original wording of the claim of right, the sovereignty

:56:39. > :56:43.of the people and ask parliament to endorse that again, will that

:56:43. > :56:46.bother the other parties or will they sign up? I don't think it will

:56:46. > :56:54.bother the other parties. The SNP can get it through as a majority

:56:55. > :56:59.anyway. You don't see that as a particularly... I just think - I am

:56:59. > :57:05.surprised he is letting the referendum go for such a long time.

:57:05. > :57:11.2014, I know there is all these pointers in 2014. Angus Robertson

:57:11. > :57:15.said 2014 in the fringe or then said or 2015. Leaving it for three

:57:15. > :57:19.years gives them many pitfalls and things that can happen. As

:57:19. > :57:24.Macmillan said, events, dear boy, events. The economy can trip them

:57:24. > :57:27.hup. They promised during the election campaign it would be

:57:27. > :57:32.deferred to the latter half of the parliament. There's no reason why

:57:32. > :57:35.they should change from that. Alex Salmond has the whip hand on this.

:57:35. > :57:41.The reality is he can afford to play the long game. He wants

:57:41. > :57:48.independence. Clearly said in the speech Westminster politicians will

:57:48. > :57:53.not dictate what we want. He sounded almost Churchillian at one

:57:53. > :57:57.point. There will be nay limits. We are looking at a man at the top of

:57:57. > :58:01.his game, feeling very confident and the reality is that he may well

:58:01. > :58:04.be prepared to settle for devolution Max rather than fuller

:58:04. > :58:07.independence this time because he knows that gives him the

:58:07. > :58:09.opportunity in the parliament to follow this one to ask that

:58:09. > :58:13.question again. I say in the parliament to follow this because

:58:13. > :58:18.there is every possibility that the SNP will still be in Government at

:58:18. > :58:22.that time. Thank you very much. And a reference there to Churchill, who

:58:22. > :58:26.of course is most famous as the former MP for Dundee. Back to the

:58:26. > :58:30.studio. Thank you very much Brian for that. Also thanks to Professor

:58:30. > :58:35.Curtice who has been with us throughout the programme.

:58:35. > :58:39.That brings our kfrpblg to -- coverage to an end here. Remember

:58:39. > :58:44.you can catch highlights of the conference on BBC2 and BBC Radio

:58:44. > :58:47.Scotland tomorrow. The Politics Show is on BBC1 Scotland tomorrow