:00:23. > :00:26.Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. The worst experience of my
:00:26. > :00:36.political life, says the Health Minister as he responds to a motion
:00:36. > :00:40.
:00:40. > :00:45.on the pseudomonas outbreak which killed four babies. Telling people
:00:45. > :00:51.bump their babies had died and perhaps that was a voidable was one
:00:51. > :00:54.of the hardest things I had to do. Also on the programme, with prison
:00:54. > :00:57.issues high on the political agenda, my guest is Olwen Lyner from NIACRO.
:00:57. > :01:07.And as he attempts to jump start the economy the Finance Minister
:01:07. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:16.gives it his all. 1, 2, 3! But we start tonight with that
:01:16. > :01:19.debate on pseudomonas. A Sinn Fein motion called for the creation of a
:01:19. > :01:22.regional neonatal intensive care unit to be speeded up. A sombre
:01:22. > :01:32.house heard criticism of some of those involved, but also praise for
:01:32. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:37.the minister. One we talk about the new women and
:01:37. > :01:41.children's hospital, we talk about maternity services in Belfast and
:01:42. > :01:47.neonatal services across the region. It was in the early 1990s that it
:01:47. > :01:52.became clear that radical change was needed for maternity services,
:01:52. > :01:58.not only at the Belfast City back at the Royal. Everyone knew that
:01:58. > :02:06.they were not equipped and the services were split between two
:02:06. > :02:11.hospitals. In June at the 2003, it was announced that the new deja nor
:02:11. > :02:16.hospital for women and children will be sited at the Royal. In 2005,
:02:16. > :02:19.it was announced that funding for the new building, which would lead
:02:19. > :02:23.to one of the best maternity facilities in the world was
:02:23. > :02:30.available. So there are a number of questions that go back to that time.
:02:30. > :02:35.What happened to that funding and where is the state-of-the-art
:02:35. > :02:41.facility? And as members would recall, there was a pseudomonas
:02:42. > :02:48.outbreak, or an incident in Londonderry. That led to the issue
:02:48. > :02:53.of an internal memo on 22nd December when the chief medical
:02:53. > :02:59.officer at made an announcement. That has been made available to us
:02:59. > :03:03.and I have read it many times. In my naivety, that document did not
:03:03. > :03:09.indicate the gravity of the situation that had developed.
:03:09. > :03:15.Fundamentally, but documents and -- the document did not mention that a
:03:15. > :03:19.child had died. It should have been in that memo. And although it has
:03:19. > :03:24.been refuted by the Department, it is inevitable that that memo may
:03:24. > :03:31.have sat in an in-tray for action after Christmas and that would have
:03:31. > :03:37.been entirely understandable, but not justified. There is no evidence
:03:37. > :03:46.that following that alert that there was much action taken.
:03:46. > :03:51.have to get the systems in place. It is a dreadfully painful lesson
:03:51. > :04:00.to have to learn for the whole surface and the families, but we
:04:00. > :04:05.have to put in place a system where we can identify pseudomonas early.
:04:05. > :04:15.-- health service. We look and expertise from around the world but
:04:15. > :04:15.
:04:15. > :04:25.will enable us to respond to this quickly. The motion refers to the
:04:25. > :04:29.
:04:29. > :04:36.recent pseudomonas outbreak. The death of those babies is
:04:36. > :04:45.devastating. Also, families who have had babies in neonatal units
:04:45. > :04:50.across Belfast will be concerned. I know that many people felt a lot of
:04:50. > :04:56.pain and for me personally, it has be the worst experience of my
:04:56. > :05:03.political life having to deal with this, and having to deal directly
:05:04. > :05:08.with the families involved. Telling people that their babies died and
:05:08. > :05:17.perhaps that was a voidable was one of the hardest things I have heard
:05:17. > :05:23.there had to do and I trust I will never have to do it again -- I have
:05:23. > :05:31.had to do. We need to have answers as quickly as possible. Mr Alastair
:05:31. > :05:39.is right in that sometimes inquiries can be put up as
:05:39. > :05:42.blockages? -- blockages. How long will they last?
:05:42. > :05:45.How safe are prison officers from attack in their place of work?
:05:45. > :05:48.lot safer than they used to be, according to the Justice Minister.
:05:48. > :05:51.He was was asked about a recent assault at Maghaberry. We'll hear
:05:51. > :06:00.that in a moment, but first here's the Health Minister again,
:06:00. > :06:05.answering a question on the treatment of eating disorders.
:06:05. > :06:10.cost is significant when families have to go to go different
:06:10. > :06:18.jurisdictions. It's not just the cost of the facility, but the
:06:18. > :06:25.charge on the health service. Family members need to be close to
:06:25. > :06:35.the location for visits. The cost is extensive and since 2005, �2
:06:35. > :06:37.
:06:37. > :06:46.million had been invested in the eating disorder services. Since
:06:46. > :06:56.2010, in patients eating disorders treatment had been provided. There
:06:56. > :06:58.
:06:58. > :07:05.are specially trained psychiatric staff. This provides a seamless
:07:05. > :07:09.service. Following on from the previous supplementaries, what is
:07:09. > :07:13.the situation in terms of the number of referrals in terms of
:07:13. > :07:23.eating disorders? Given the size of the population in Northern Ireland,
:07:23. > :07:24.
:07:24. > :07:31.it would be difficult to sustain a specialist unit. And the current
:07:31. > :07:37.economic climate, it is not money we will tie up directly with the
:07:37. > :07:42.development of such a unit, but the private sector have expressed
:07:42. > :07:51.interest and had been in discussions with the health service
:07:51. > :07:55.as to how many clients they would provide. Individual patients might
:07:55. > :08:01.benefit from care outside of Northern Ireland, but indications
:08:01. > :08:08.are that over the last few years, there has been a reduction in
:08:08. > :08:18.contractual referrals and that trend is expected to continue as we
:08:18. > :08:21.
:08:21. > :08:29.develop our own local expertise. The future of the causeway hospital
:08:29. > :08:39.in collaring has been causing concern for MLAs. Well Coleraine
:08:39. > :08:41.
:08:41. > :08:45.continue to have an accident and emergency provision? In terms of
:08:46. > :08:52.the causeway hospital, population plans are being looked at through
:08:52. > :08:56.the trust and the Commission bodies and what is important is that what
:08:56. > :09:00.is thought to myself is a sustainable model for the future.
:09:00. > :09:04.The easiest thing for me to do as the minister would be to indicate
:09:04. > :09:13.that I would not be altering or changing everything in the causeway
:09:13. > :09:16.hospital. Only for six months, one year, two years down the line for
:09:17. > :09:23.the whale colleges to withdraw their services, I would rather make
:09:23. > :09:28.a decision that will allow for a sustainable model for a hospital.
:09:28. > :09:34.It will include an emergency department within that. I am not
:09:34. > :09:40.sure whether he or I should be more concerned, but I find myself on the
:09:40. > :09:50.same pages as the MP for North Antrim Ian Paisley. He says that
:09:50. > :09:51.
:09:51. > :09:59.the hospital will close. If one of his own MPs finds no reassurance,
:09:59. > :10:04.why should anyone think otherwise? Well, I note the member quoting
:10:04. > :10:13.from a certain publication and it does not always give things right,
:10:13. > :10:18.or of course. As the Member knows, the aforementioned MP the
:10:19. > :10:22.participate. In highlighting the problem that the European Working
:10:22. > :10:28.Title States, by not allowing doctors to come into Northern
:10:28. > :10:33.Ireland who would have previously been allowed in to support services,
:10:33. > :10:38.I appreciate the fact that the Member of Parliament is putting up
:10:38. > :10:47.a vigorous campaign on a regular basis. In fact, he tortures me
:10:47. > :10:52.about it. Justice next, and the minister was questioned about
:10:52. > :10:57.prison officer safety at Maghaberry. The safety of prison officers is a
:10:57. > :11:02.priority. Him enough three years be recorded assault has Haft.
:11:02. > :11:09.Nonetheless, there is no room for complacency. Recently, staff were
:11:09. > :11:16.able to respond to an manage incident safely and swiftly and no
:11:16. > :11:24.injuries were sustained. Although assaults on prison staff, nurses
:11:24. > :11:29.and teachers cannot be tolerated. Tensions are often a fact of life
:11:29. > :11:35.in a prison setting. On many occasions, staff can use their
:11:35. > :11:40.training to bring situations to a successful resolution. Whilst 30
:11:40. > :11:48.other prisoners were in the facility on certain incidents, they
:11:48. > :11:52.did not join in and some of them actually aided the prison officers.
:11:52. > :11:58.What assessment is carried out when it comes to the number of staff
:11:58. > :12:05.ratio to the number of prisoners? They are the 30 prisoners did not
:12:05. > :12:14.get involved, but if they did, it could have been serious. Given the
:12:14. > :12:17.Governor of Maghaberry is a minister, can he give assurance
:12:17. > :12:24.that senior management at Maghaberry can ensure the safety of
:12:24. > :12:30.the staff but were they? We do have ratios of officers to start on the
:12:30. > :12:38.landings which are large be comparable with, and in many cases,
:12:38. > :12:42.higher than more stop poor prisoner than our neighbouring prisons. The
:12:42. > :12:47.fact that the last three years has seen, despite the increase in a
:12:47. > :12:53.number of prisoners, the number of incidents like this going down is
:12:54. > :12:57.an indication of good work being done by prison staff and management
:12:57. > :13:00.in dynamic security to ensure these incidents do not happen with any
:13:00. > :13:04.regularity. We heard there about prisoner
:13:04. > :13:06.numbers going up and with me now is Olwen Lyner of the prisoner welfare
:13:06. > :13:08.group NIACRO. We've heard repeated calls for a
:13:08. > :13:18.re-evaluation of business rates, but the Finance Minister has again
:13:18. > :13:24.
:13:24. > :13:27.I think in terms of looking at rehabilitation, we must look not
:13:27. > :13:32.just at the Justice Department but a number of departments that should
:13:32. > :13:36.be helping people when they are coming out of prison. The majority
:13:36. > :13:42.of people will be coming out and looking for housing in the public
:13:42. > :13:47.sector. Public sector support. That will affect the housing executive.
:13:47. > :13:51.Many will have a form of benefits and we meet the Social Security
:13:51. > :13:58.Agency. They need to be brought to realisation of what life will be
:13:58. > :14:02.like back in society and the issues they will face. And how they will
:14:02. > :14:07.integrate into society again in a way that it means the behaviours
:14:08. > :14:13.that brought them to that place our behaviour is they can work to
:14:13. > :14:21.reduce. Prism is an important opportunity for people to consider
:14:21. > :14:30.life choices. -- prison. Some of the debate in recent times has been
:14:30. > :14:37.a debate between hang a heady and hard a goody. Severe punishments
:14:37. > :14:42.compared to a liberal view. purpose of prison is to bring
:14:42. > :14:46.people that have been found to be guilty of some offence to serve a
:14:46. > :14:51.period in prison. The period of being outside society is a
:14:51. > :14:56.punishment in itself. After we have taken away their liberty and they
:14:56. > :15:01.are there for six months, one year or whatever, we must engage with
:15:01. > :15:07.people to look at what is required when they come back into society
:15:07. > :15:12.began. I am interested in the term a liberal. It is not easy for
:15:12. > :15:16.people to face up to their behaviour and make these changes.
:15:16. > :15:19.What matters is that people come out and that they did not commit
:15:19. > :15:25.offences again and we do not have people victimised and have more
:15:25. > :15:33.crime. That is not so much liberal as sensible and a good use of
:15:33. > :15:36.public money. We are trying to We've heard repeated calls for a
:15:36. > :15:39.re-evaluation of business rates but the Finance Minister has again said
:15:39. > :15:49.that won't happen until 2015. I asked Sammy Wilson why that's the
:15:49. > :15:50.
:15:50. > :15:56.case. I have heard this said, that because the value has gone down,
:15:56. > :16:01.and therefore be rates should go down. But of course when the Dow
:16:01. > :16:07.you was going up four and five times in the middle of the boom, it
:16:07. > :16:14.went up four or five times because that is not the way that it works.
:16:14. > :16:20.We set a certain amount of money in which to raise it from taxation. If
:16:20. > :16:26.it goes down, for example, by 50 %, that does not mean the rate will go
:16:26. > :16:32.down by 50 %. We still want to get the same amount of money from
:16:32. > :16:36.business rates but it might mean that it would double and equally
:16:36. > :16:43.the value of properties go up and the amount you pay per pound would
:16:43. > :16:47.half. If people think this will be a panacea for getting rates down,
:16:47. > :16:52.it might change relatively for some people and some areas getting an
:16:52. > :16:56.increase and other areas getting a decrease but it is not going to
:16:56. > :17:02.solve all of the problems. What about changing the system
:17:02. > :17:09.altogether with a local sales tax? That would not necessarily be all
:17:09. > :17:16.that fair. Because you might find that some stores cover a big area
:17:16. > :17:22.and meet demands on public services, but the value of sales is quite low
:17:22. > :17:30.and vice versa. And so with every kind of system, we will always have
:17:30. > :17:35.an upside and downside. A sales tax for example, it will only have, it
:17:35. > :17:42.can end the be based on declared sales. What about fly-by-night
:17:42. > :17:46.stalls? Before accounts are published, they are bankrupt and
:17:46. > :17:53.whatever. That could be a recipe for people that wants to avoid
:17:53. > :17:57.paying any tax at all. These are the kind of considerations we have
:17:58. > :18:03.decided and unless the Assembly asks for a total change in how we
:18:03. > :18:08.did local taxation, we have done a valuation of property and we will
:18:08. > :18:15.have a where shinned down and that will be done in a way that will be
:18:15. > :18:21.robust and in place by 2015. Rather than the gaps that we have, we want
:18:21. > :18:29.to do a five year valuation and an evaluation of property on a regular
:18:29. > :18:32.basis. But we did not want the turbulence in the market. I think
:18:32. > :18:36.that is the right decision because we did the way the recession went
:18:36. > :18:42.and property values went all over the place, we could not have a
:18:42. > :18:47.proper valuation. Why should government revenues be protected?
:18:47. > :18:51.Because they are used for the very services on which businesses depend.
:18:51. > :18:57.Every week, I have got organisations coming and saying
:18:57. > :19:02.that we would like to spend more money in a revamping town centres
:19:02. > :19:09.and on infrastructure and protecting businesses, the police
:19:09. > :19:13.service and so on. People pay for a service. That is why we collect the
:19:13. > :19:16.Revenue. And if we stop the service is because we did not collect the
:19:16. > :19:22.Revenue, people could equally say that is having an impact on
:19:22. > :19:25.Students in Northern Ireland who want to go to university in
:19:25. > :19:28.Scotland are being told they can qualify for free tuition, as long
:19:28. > :19:31.as they have an Irish passport. The Ulster Unionist Employment &
:19:31. > :19:37.Learning spokesperson, Basil McCrea, has called for fairness. He joins
:19:37. > :19:41.me now. What do you mean by that? It is not fair that you can have
:19:41. > :19:46.one set of people in Northern Ireland that can go to university
:19:46. > :19:50.for free and another person 50 ft away that cannot. That is not fair
:19:50. > :19:56.and it is not equality. everybody can surely apply for an
:19:56. > :20:00.Irish passport? That is about different value choices people make.
:20:00. > :20:05.It does seem strange that legislation says not just Irish
:20:05. > :20:10.passport but Belgian, French or any European Union passport would get a
:20:10. > :20:14.free education in Scotland. The only people that cannot get it for
:20:14. > :20:19.free in Scotland are people in Northern Ireland, England or Wales
:20:19. > :20:22.and that is discriminatory. people can get eat here within
:20:22. > :20:30.reason if they apply for the Irish passport and gave for a course
:20:30. > :20:34.where there is not a cap. Discrimination is not right, ever,
:20:34. > :20:39.under any circumstances. And if you talk about discriminating against
:20:39. > :20:44.English people in Northern Ireland or Irish people in Scotland, the
:20:44. > :20:47.whole of Northern Ireland is based on equity and fairness. What is
:20:47. > :20:54.very strange for me in this debate is that people that shout loudest
:20:54. > :20:58.about equality are strangely quiet about this. If we want a civilised
:20:58. > :21:01.society it should be equal for everybody and if it is free for one
:21:01. > :21:08.person you should be for others. He should charge the same fees for
:21:08. > :21:12.everybody. But surely the equation is that the students are faced with
:21:12. > :21:17.a question, even if they are Irish passport holders, they are not sure
:21:17. > :21:22.if they will get their choice because of the competition. It they
:21:22. > :21:29.say that they will pay the fees, that is very unfair to put them in
:21:29. > :21:38.that position. I did not have any problem with people taking an Irish
:21:38. > :21:43.passport and saying that entitles into that is presumably some form
:21:43. > :21:47.of Merit and suitability. That seems fair and equitable. But what
:21:47. > :21:52.seems unfair is that an equally qualified person going for exactly
:21:52. > :21:58.the same course and the same timescale and place will be charged
:21:58. > :22:03.money. We do not have any way around that. That is totally unfair
:22:03. > :22:09.and discriminatory. The DUP and Sinn Fein should be speaking up for
:22:09. > :22:14.this because they speak up on an awful lot of similar issues.
:22:14. > :22:19.are we not doing the same thing, we are not offering it for free but
:22:19. > :22:22.they will have to pay a higher rate than the students here? The idea of
:22:22. > :22:29.discrimination has broken down because of the fee structure that
:22:29. > :22:33.is operating. If you offer to one it should be offered to another. I
:22:33. > :22:39.did not have any problem with a regulatory regime that says that we
:22:39. > :22:44.think that if we charge more fees we can offer a better course. Or it
:22:44. > :22:48.people say that we do not want to charge fees because that can
:22:48. > :22:52.discourage participation. That is valid but what is not is charging
:22:52. > :22:57.one set of fees to one set of people and another or not charging
:22:57. > :23:02.another set of people. That is blatant and absolute, no getting
:23:02. > :23:08.away from it, this is discriminatory. It is not equality
:23:08. > :23:11.and it shows the paucity of arguments from other parties like
:23:11. > :23:17.the DUP and Sinn Fein and its his country means anything it is about
:23:17. > :23:23.being fair. We must realise the trauma in society and we have to
:23:23. > :23:28.fix that. Looking at Justice, you have just left de Justice Committee
:23:28. > :23:35.but what do you think the committee and the Assembly must do to make
:23:35. > :23:39.things better for your organisation in terms of rehabilitation? I think
:23:39. > :23:44.the projects generally, I think we have got an issue about the justice
:23:45. > :23:47.committee and continued scrutiny. We need to be moving forward in a
:23:47. > :23:54.positive direction and the committee provides that scrutiny
:23:54. > :23:59.and they will continue to do that. But we need the Executive, anyone
:23:59. > :24:03.minister on their home must have the support of other parties, other
:24:03. > :24:11.departments, other ministers to make the Executive work at them. We
:24:11. > :24:19.have to work together -- make the Executive happen. That is something
:24:19. > :24:22.We talked last week and last night about the lack of business here at
:24:22. > :24:27.the Assembly. Well, there was a development today as Gareth Gordon
:24:27. > :24:33.told me earlier. We have not had much action in the chamber for
:24:33. > :24:37.weeks. We had a situation which is indicative of the fact that we do
:24:37. > :24:42.not have enough for MLAs to be discussing but the business
:24:42. > :24:46.committee have communicated concerns to the DUP Minister and
:24:46. > :24:51.will go back to the Executive to tell us what has been set. I have
:24:51. > :24:56.been told by that committee that things are looking better and we
:24:56. > :25:02.have got a much healthier order paper for this month and more
:25:02. > :25:07.executive business. But at least one MLA said more can be done.
:25:07. > :25:12.are working on this, that and the other but I would rather they came
:25:12. > :25:16.clean and told us that and we knew what to expect. By not coming
:25:16. > :25:20.forward, there appears to be a suspicion that maybe they do not
:25:20. > :25:27.have something. I would not like to think that but if that is the case
:25:27. > :25:31.we had better have a review of what they are doing. But we have got
:25:31. > :25:35.problems for Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness as well. It is
:25:35. > :25:40.not just today but it has been dominated today here by health
:25:40. > :25:46.matters and that has been causing concern in the officer of the first
:25:46. > :25:52.and Deputy First Minister. They have got a trade negotiation to the
:25:52. > :25:57.United Arab Emirates and India and they are feeling decidedly unwell
:25:57. > :26:04.and in the past few months it has been bad and I think that we need
:26:04. > :26:09.to look at that. We have been looking at people being sent to
:26:09. > :26:15.prison in this way and it does not happen in the UK any more. Does
:26:15. > :26:20.that deeds to be reviewed? It is really disproportionate. At the
:26:20. > :26:26.time when the offence is committed and the individual is in court, the
:26:26. > :26:32.judge determines if that is an offence at once a prison. A much
:26:32. > :26:42.lesser outcome -- that is warranting prism. That is like
:26:42. > :26:44.
:26:44. > :26:54.community service and a fine. -- prism. -- jail. People can choose
:26:54. > :26:55.
:26:55. > :27:02.to go to jail instead of paying.... Some people end up defaulting and
:27:02. > :27:08.they have owed less than �500. Some of them have them for motoring
:27:08. > :27:15.offences. In the big picture of who should be going to jail, one a
:27:15. > :27:18.fence that warrants it, I did not condemn for one second what has
:27:18. > :27:28.happened but I do not think that is what the majority thinks that prism
:27:28. > :27:30.
:27:30. > :27:32.Now you may have heard of a dead cat bounce - that's when there's a
:27:32. > :27:35.temporary recovery on the stock market. We didn't have that today.
:27:35. > :27:39.What we did have was a finance minister bounce. He wasn't trying
:27:39. > :27:42.to jump start the economy, but launch a family fun day which will
:27:42. > :27:52.take place at Stormont next month. And Sammy Wilson wasn't shy when it
:27:52. > :28:19.
:28:19. > :28:29.1, 2, 3, go! That is better. You see the way I do that? Better milk.
:28:29. > :28:29.
:28:29. > :28:38.Not very good? What a minister. That is good. And that is on 4th