:00:28. > :00:34.Welcome to Stormont Today. It is the best of the day's proceedings
:00:34. > :00:40.from up here on the hill. It was a popular move to freeze tuition fees
:00:40. > :00:46.but was that excessive? The rise is going to be considerably more than
:00:46. > :00:50.you think. We have got 8,000 students currently a fraud. If a
:00:50. > :00:56.small proportion stay at home, we cannot provide for them or stop --
:00:56. > :01:06.currently abroad. Is there something in the broad -- in the
:01:06. > :01:16.
:01:16. > :01:20.water? Not in that sense! Our guest First tonight, our Political
:01:20. > :01:27.correspondent Martina Purdy has an exclusive look at the long awaited
:01:27. > :01:32.government programme. What have we got? It is a draft of the programme.
:01:32. > :01:37.It was run up by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister's office
:01:37. > :01:42.and since we have had other versions. It gives you an idea of
:01:42. > :01:46.the administration's thinking. The top Parity and challenge his job
:01:46. > :01:51.creation and improving the economy but it looks at choices given the
:01:51. > :01:56.financial constraints. It looks at improving educational outcomes and
:01:56. > :02:06.reforming healthcare and improving the efficiency of public services.
:02:06. > :02:14.That is quite a vague description. Any flesh on the Bayern's? We are
:02:14. > :02:20.looking at some targets such as providing 21,000 jobs. Getting
:02:20. > :02:26.100,000 people off benefits and into employment. Increasing school
:02:26. > :02:30.leavers to 66 % by 2014 and investing in a rural development.
:02:30. > :02:35.Another target is planning to make certain all large-scale planning
:02:35. > :02:40.applications are decided upon in six months. What does the
:02:40. > :02:48.executives say? They have distanced themselves. They have said it is
:02:48. > :02:52.just a draft. A spokesman said that they would simply not comment.
:02:52. > :02:56.Student fees dominated questions to be Minister for Employment and
:02:56. > :03:01.Learning. Not surprising. Before that it was Enterprise Minister
:03:01. > :03:07.Arlene Foster taking questions. She gets a complement from an alliance
:03:07. > :03:10.member. Can I welcome the Chancellor's announcement in
:03:11. > :03:17.relation to air passenger duty and thank her for the work that she
:03:17. > :03:22.did? Are there any other measures available that perhaps could
:03:22. > :03:32.mitigate other additional pastoral landing charges -- passenger
:03:32. > :03:36.
:03:36. > :03:39.I thank the members for his -- Member for his kind words. I deeply
:03:39. > :03:45.appreciate the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He is to be commended
:03:45. > :03:50.for taking a personal interest in this mattered. I have to say,
:03:50. > :03:55.without his assistants, this would have been a very different story. I
:03:55. > :04:04.commend him for that. There was a lot of hard work behind at the
:04:04. > :04:09.seams. -- behind the scenes. It is true to say that if this passenger
:04:09. > :04:15.duty had not been addressed like that, it might have been very
:04:15. > :04:21.different today. That would have had big ramifications in Northern
:04:21. > :04:27.Ireland. Particularly in the respect of inward investment from
:04:27. > :04:31.North America. I am pleased that is not the case. That might come in
:04:31. > :04:37.useful for some people travelling for the music awards next month.
:04:37. > :04:43.They will be spending lots of money, apparently. It is forecast that the
:04:43. > :04:50.music awards will generate �10 million for the local economy. It
:04:50. > :04:55.is estimated that media coverage will generate �10 million of public
:04:55. > :05:00.relations funding. It will attract 20,000 visitors and 25% from
:05:00. > :05:05.outside Northern Ireland and bringing significant benefit to the
:05:05. > :05:13.area in the longer term will stop at currently less than 10---.
:05:13. > :05:23.Currently less than 10,000 places have been booked as a result of the
:05:23. > :05:23.
:05:23. > :05:33.2011 survey in Belfast. Can I ask how we are looking at the filming
:05:33. > :05:36.
:05:36. > :05:42.of MTV? Are anybody -- is anybody considering directing? This is the
:05:42. > :05:47.home of major productions. I would have thought he had enough stars
:05:47. > :05:51.and wanted to share them around. I think the positive story from last
:05:51. > :05:56.week is that we have got international superstars coming to
:05:56. > :06:04.make big years in Northern Ireland. That sends out a very strong
:06:04. > :06:09.message about the change in Northern Ireland. -- video footage.
:06:09. > :06:18.On to tuition fees. What will happen if more people want to study
:06:18. > :06:24.I understand budgeting and finance and resources that have to be
:06:24. > :06:29.applied. But the rise is going to be considerably more than what do
:06:29. > :06:36.you think. We have got 8,000 students currently abroad. If a
:06:36. > :06:44.small proportion come here, we cannot provide for them. How can we
:06:44. > :06:50.sort this out? The short answer to doubt is that I have the capacity
:06:50. > :06:57.to get back to my colleagues based on the actual evidence. Then I can
:06:57. > :07:03.seek additional resources. I have managed to secured a modest amount
:07:03. > :07:10.of resources to allow student places and it is important to make
:07:10. > :07:14.a start. But the wider point is that we have got a sense of realism.
:07:14. > :07:21.The grant was premised on the assumption of tuition fees being
:07:21. > :07:28.introduced at the same level as Great Britain. My department was
:07:28. > :07:35.promised as well. We have to manage student finance and support at the
:07:35. > :07:40.universities, a budget. To freeze these and look at funding was a
:07:40. > :07:46.considerable achievement. And the pressure of places, it is asking an
:07:46. > :07:52.awful lot on a fixed budget at a time of considerable crisis. I have
:07:52. > :07:58.made the case quite robustly. I understand why we have got the
:07:58. > :08:04.situation today. This is a consequence of what was viewed as a
:08:04. > :08:11.very popular situation and we had a lot of pressure to do this. We have
:08:11. > :08:15.to look at the consequences. Carry on Question Time in the chamber has
:08:15. > :08:25.some members got a bit giddy about a very innocent remarks. Must be
:08:25. > :08:31.
:08:31. > :08:40.We were at it... We were at it last week, Mr Deputy Speaker. If I could
:08:40. > :08:45.ask another question?! I will leave if there. We will hold that thought
:08:45. > :08:55.to another time and we can no doubt talk about that privately. Not in
:08:55. > :09:03.Later than usual, he is our guest of the day, Brian Feeney. It was
:09:03. > :09:10.all laughs but tough decisions ahead. We will see if the proposals
:09:10. > :09:16.will actually ever be decided. We are reading through the programme.
:09:16. > :09:21.It is clear that the constraints from Westminster will be here for
:09:21. > :09:27.another four years. They have brought forward some plans quite
:09:27. > :09:32.quickly. Reducing the number of councils. Big plans for education.
:09:32. > :09:38.Do you feel inspired or optimistic that things might be a bit quicker
:09:38. > :09:44.this time? They will have to be. One of the disappointing things is
:09:44. > :09:48.marking time. A lot of things in the programme has been in the
:09:48. > :09:54.previous programme and achieved nothing in four years. Particularly
:09:54. > :09:59.in education. They did not do anything about 26 councils. They
:09:59. > :10:04.have to do something. The Secretary of State have said if they did not
:10:04. > :10:08.manage it is in the next four years, they will have lost credibility.
:10:08. > :10:13.They will have been in office eight years and achieved nothing. It is
:10:13. > :10:19.imperative to get something done. It is imperative to get the
:10:19. > :10:25.councils reduced. That will save millions. Perception is the problem
:10:25. > :10:29.as well. Members of the public really do feel that we have got
:10:30. > :10:35.inefficiency happening here. They are not seeing the jobs they want
:10:35. > :10:42.to see created and unemployment is rising. The public is quite right
:10:42. > :10:48.about that. The programme is really mother had an apple pie. More jobs
:10:48. > :10:52.and more investment. There are things I frankly do not believe.
:10:52. > :11:00.Getting 100,000 people off benefits and into jobs. Where are these jobs
:11:00. > :11:04.going to be? People are looking at more civil servants in the office
:11:04. > :11:11.of the First Minister and in the Cabinet Office. They are dealing
:11:11. > :11:16.with a population of 60 million. Is that the best use of public money?
:11:16. > :11:21.What about corporation tax? We have had much discussion about that and
:11:21. > :11:28.we will hear more about that later. Is that a key to boosting the
:11:28. > :11:33.economy? I heard that at the Conservative conference. That is
:11:33. > :11:38.much more dangerous than it has ever been. He is not banking on the
:11:38. > :11:44.prospect. I think they have been attacked by the Scottish Office, by
:11:44. > :11:54.people like Alex Salmond. They are talking about reducing it to 15 %
:11:54. > :11:54.
:11:54. > :11:57.by 2020. But he is not very hopeful. Thank you very much. The Finance
:11:57. > :12:01.Minister Sammy Wilson says if London does not its Stormont the
:12:01. > :12:06.powers to cut, they will have to come up with alternative ways to
:12:06. > :12:09.boost the economy. He was talking to the Secretary of State and
:12:10. > :12:19.setting up a committee to examine the cost implications of reducing
:12:20. > :12:20.
:12:20. > :12:25.the tax in Northern Ireland before I will be concerned about by the
:12:25. > :12:29.setting up the committee is a way of saying, let us keep it into the
:12:29. > :12:33.long grass, and I suppose it is only when we start talking, you
:12:33. > :12:40.will find out whether that is the case. Once the Government makes up
:12:40. > :12:49.its mind that politically it wants to do something, once the
:12:49. > :12:53.Chancellor realised, he took the right political decision and it's
:12:53. > :12:58.saved the link between here and North America with the airlines. So
:12:58. > :13:03.I am not overly worried at the moment, but I think into a three
:13:03. > :13:07.months' time when we see how it works we might have a better idea.
:13:07. > :13:12.Some people have accused you of putting corporation tax on the long
:13:12. > :13:16.finger. That is not the case. What I said
:13:17. > :13:21.and is still the case, it is that we are seeking to have the powers
:13:21. > :13:25.devolved as quickly as possible, but the actual reduction in the
:13:25. > :13:29.rate will be some time down the line, because there is no point in
:13:29. > :13:33.reducing the rate immediately if you are not getting some benefits
:13:33. > :13:38.from investment decisions. Since investment decisions take about two
:13:38. > :13:41.or three years to make, why would you cut the rate of corporation tax
:13:41. > :13:47.before you get the benefits? You would be paying and getting no
:13:47. > :13:51.benefits. First of all we need a decision to devolve, the
:13:51. > :13:54.legislation to devolve, and then we will announce a date, probably at
:13:54. > :14:00.the end of this period of the Executive, when that will be
:14:00. > :14:05.reduced. That gives investors the certainty, that they know when than
:14:05. > :14:10.that they are going to pay the lower level of corporation tax?
:14:10. > :14:15.I think there has always been an element he did not want to see it
:14:15. > :14:20.devolved - they did not want to hand over more tax powers to
:14:20. > :14:30.devolved administrations, they were also -- always fearful that what
:14:30. > :14:30.
:14:30. > :14:35.happened in Northern Ireland... So there was always the resistance
:14:35. > :14:38.there, so I am not surprised at that. Even in the discussions we
:14:38. > :14:44.had earlier warned there was always those tensions between people who
:14:44. > :14:49.quite clearly were not committed to devolving corporation tax and does
:14:49. > :14:52.who wanted to look at it. What happens if London cool off and
:14:52. > :14:57.say we are not going to give you the powers?
:14:57. > :15:01.I would say to them politically, but if you do not believe that the
:15:01. > :15:07.devolution of corporation tax is the means to achieve that objective,
:15:07. > :15:12.then tell us what you do believe. Tell us what we can do to rebalance
:15:12. > :15:16.the economy. It is not in London's interest or our interests to keep
:15:16. > :15:21.this heavy reliance on the public sector. We have seen the impact
:15:21. > :15:25.that when there is reductions in Government spending, it is
:15:25. > :15:30.magnified, the effect is magnified in Northern Ireland because of our
:15:30. > :15:36.dependence on the public sector. We need to rebalance the economy, and
:15:36. > :15:39.I will make the argument that if that is not the means then tell us
:15:40. > :15:46.what you are going to give us. You cannot simply say that the public
:15:46. > :15:52.sector is too big in Northern Ireland - and then say we have no
:15:52. > :15:56.ideas how to rebalance. It is a must have provided it is devolved
:15:56. > :16:01.at the right price, and it is devolved in the right way. I think
:16:01. > :16:07.that is the important thing - it is not the only answer, it is not
:16:07. > :16:14.going to solve all of the problems, but I speak to businessmen on a
:16:14. > :16:18.regular basis, many of them are keen to see it devolved. Most of
:16:18. > :16:25.the honest ones will tell you that it will not solve all their
:16:25. > :16:31.problems, or not lead mad jiggly to massive investment tomorrow, but
:16:31. > :16:34.nevertheless it will be important for us to have it in the toolbox.
:16:34. > :16:38.The Finance Minister Sammy Wilson speaking to me earlier.
:16:38. > :16:45.Brian, you are a former member of the SDLP. What do you make of the
:16:45. > :16:49.leadership contest? It has now gone behind the scenes as the various
:16:49. > :16:54.candidates to their canvassing and tried to twist arms and show people
:16:54. > :17:00.how attractive they are. I think there are too many candidates and
:17:00. > :17:03.they may do each other damage. Alastair Macdonald make a mistake
:17:03. > :17:08.standing this time, because the people who rejected him two years
:17:08. > :17:14.ago will not fought find this time either, and he may damage his
:17:14. > :17:22.opponent by standing. But his thoughts will probably go to
:17:22. > :17:26.somebody else in the end. I think they were people who
:17:26. > :17:31.thought they had to throw their hat in the ring to give themselves a
:17:31. > :17:37.leg up in the party. I don't think either has a chance of winning, in
:17:37. > :17:41.the case of, McDevitt, he has only been elected since May. He was co-
:17:41. > :17:46.opted to the Assembly before that, but only elected in his own right,
:17:46. > :17:49.and people will think he is too soon. Throwing his hat in the ring
:17:49. > :17:54.means he will become more senior in the party.
:17:54. > :17:58.Is it a prize worth winning? It is really a crown of thorns.
:17:58. > :18:02.Whoever gets collected this time may well be the last leader of the
:18:02. > :18:08.SDLP. If they do not get the party together for the Assembly elections
:18:08. > :18:12.in 2015, the party will be reduced to such a small number, maybe six
:18:12. > :18:17.Assembly members. Added Will's ceased to be a force to be reckoned
:18:17. > :18:21.with. So it is crunch time, they have got to get it right this time,
:18:21. > :18:26.because they cannot choose another leader of next year.
:18:26. > :18:29.They were highly charged scenes in committees this past week. When
:18:29. > :18:33.should children become criminally responsible? That got tempers
:18:33. > :18:38.frayed at the Justice Committee, but at Agriculture emotions ran
:18:38. > :18:40.high as a senior civil servant was asked about the mistakes that led
:18:40. > :18:47.to the Crossnacreevy land deal disaster.
:18:47. > :18:52.There are two events here. And there is a link between them, it is
:18:52. > :18:58.not a straightforward link. One event is the management scheme
:18:58. > :19:08.which I maintain was very desirable, endorsed by farmers, very necessary
:19:08. > :19:17.to the economy. A good outcome. The second event is that we sought to
:19:17. > :19:23.dispose of an asset to bring in �200 million, and we have failed.
:19:23. > :19:31.bogus exercise? No, I do not accept that. We have failed having done
:19:31. > :19:37.the work. We have not retreated, we have said that when it reopens we
:19:37. > :19:41.will return to the job. We but we have failed in the task we set
:19:41. > :19:47.ourselves of disposing of the assets within the spending review
:19:48. > :19:52.period. That is not a good outcome for us as a department, to fail at
:19:52. > :19:59.any task that we put our minds to. So do you feel you have learnt
:19:59. > :20:08.lessons? I think we have. I think we have learned a lot about how to
:20:08. > :20:13.approach a major capital assets and how to seek the advice... We have
:20:13. > :20:20.learned a lot about the constraints on disposing of an asset, and I
:20:20. > :20:27.suppose that is what we carry forward with us. I do, and again,
:20:27. > :20:31.it is a joy of my life that occasionally I get to talk to the
:20:31. > :20:35.young people coming into the service, and I had that experience
:20:35. > :20:39.in the last week of bringing in a young fast track graduate. What I
:20:39. > :20:46.would say is that the recommendations of this committee
:20:46. > :20:56.are very important and are taken very seriously by all of us. It
:20:56. > :20:56.
:20:56. > :21:02.will be... It will be of concern if we end up driving out, particularly
:21:02. > :21:06.younger people with careers in front of them. The measurement and
:21:06. > :21:12.the management of risk. I would just put that on the table as
:21:12. > :21:19.something to bear in mind. It would have been possible, frankly, in
:21:19. > :21:26.June 2007, for both the department and ministers to say, we have our
:21:26. > :21:32.processes, and there is nothing we can do. And there you are -
:21:32. > :21:38.Agriculture, industry, you have a problem with you at slummy - deal
:21:38. > :21:48.with it, you are the polluter. -- you slurry. We did not do that, we
:21:48. > :21:49.
:21:49. > :21:55.took a risk. Retrospective,... But I would be genuinely disappointed
:21:55. > :22:02.if we end up driving out that management of risk as a concept and
:22:02. > :22:10.as an issue for the young people coming into the department.
:22:10. > :22:18.We get some issues here about the UN Convention and the rights of
:22:18. > :22:23.children. Where they say that you advocate we should dot dot dot
:22:23. > :22:27.child welfare should be at the centre. There is a perception that
:22:27. > :22:32.we are forgetting about the rights of society, of community, not just
:22:32. > :22:38.the victim, but about community. How do we ensure that there are
:22:38. > :22:47.checks and balances, and if you take the issue about age, about
:22:47. > :22:56.moving from ten to 12 or about 12 to 14, when it 18? You have here,
:22:56. > :23:03.quoting your report on page 76, the intention was to treat all under 18
:23:03. > :23:07.year-olds as children. And you come back into this argument. The that
:23:07. > :23:12.the point is you have to make the argument, that there is a better
:23:12. > :23:17.way of dealing people than with the criminal justice system.
:23:17. > :23:21.relation to the rights of the community and what we say about the
:23:21. > :23:25.UN Convention on the rights of the child and particular article 3
:23:25. > :23:31.which talks about representing the best interests of the child, what
:23:31. > :23:35.we say is that the best interests of the child, according to
:23:35. > :23:41.international instruments, should be part of the principal aim of any
:23:41. > :23:49.youth justice system. In Northern Ireland, it is not. Protecting the
:23:49. > :23:56.public, however, is. It is part of the principal aim. We are
:23:56. > :24:00.suggesting that all of those things should be reflected in the
:24:00. > :24:05.principal aim of the youth justice system. It is not just about
:24:05. > :24:08.protecting the public, it is not just about preventing offending and
:24:08. > :24:12.reoffending, but also about insuring the best interests of the
:24:12. > :24:16.child. In showing that all the right components are part of that
:24:16. > :24:20.principle aim. To see more from Question Time or
:24:21. > :24:23.anything else going on in the chamber or at committee, go to our
:24:24. > :24:27.Democracy Live page way can watch proceedings from Stormont,
:24:27. > :24:31.Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff or Brussels.
:24:31. > :24:37.Watching that committee, Brian, what do you think of the standard
:24:37. > :24:43.of our watchdogs here at Stormont? First of all you can never
:24:43. > :24:46.underestimate the pomposity and self-importance of the MLAs, and in
:24:46. > :24:52.any case it is in inverse proportion to their ability and
:24:52. > :24:58.knowledge. They do not specialise - what you tend to find is that
:24:58. > :25:01.individual MPs become known to be experts on particular areas,
:25:01. > :25:05.whether it be law, health, or education, and they become
:25:05. > :25:10.formidable figures on those committees. Home affairs, for
:25:10. > :25:16.example. Chris Mullin, the former chair, for years and years, became
:25:16. > :25:21.an expert on that committee almost in his own right. A lot tend to ask
:25:21. > :25:25.questions about all kinds of things. But they have not had a chance to
:25:25. > :25:28.have years and years on the committee. That's right, but we
:25:28. > :25:33.need to have more and more people specialising, so that instead of
:25:33. > :25:36.asking questions on all kinds of subjects, they hone in on a
:25:36. > :25:42.particular aspect and become somebody to be feared by officials
:25:42. > :25:46.and ministers, because they know that particular MLA is the expert
:25:46. > :25:51.on a certain area. We really do not have any of those.
:25:51. > :25:54.MLAs want tougher sentences for fuel launderers and more cross-
:25:54. > :25:59.border co-operation in catching those involved in fuel smuggling.
:25:59. > :26:04.It is estimated the cost the Exchequer is around �200 million
:26:04. > :26:07.and year in lost revenue. The DUP's Jim Wells was a number of MLAs who
:26:07. > :26:13.call for a crackdown on the criminals involved.
:26:13. > :26:16.It is a serious issue, and I will be interested to see what the
:26:16. > :26:21.Justice Minister says. I do not think we as a society are taking
:26:21. > :26:25.this seriously enough. For custodial sentences. If I still a
:26:25. > :26:29.million pounds from a bank I would go down, but if somebody Launders
:26:29. > :26:34.fuel and makes millions of pounds, all he gets is a suspended sentence,
:26:34. > :26:40.a rap on the knuckles or a fine. If we take this seriously we would
:26:40. > :26:43.like to see far more people going down, if they are caught doing this.
:26:43. > :26:47.Only then will we should the community that the Department of
:26:47. > :26:52.Justice takes this seriously. practical reality is that the
:26:52. > :26:55.action he wants to see his action being taken by the Lord Chief
:26:55. > :27:01.Justice and which he wants the judiciary to step up on. It is also
:27:01. > :27:06.the case that this issue is a reserved matter. If we were to see
:27:06. > :27:10.action on changing the level of sentences, it would be a matter for
:27:10. > :27:15.the Westminster Parliament, and it is a matter on which I suspect the
:27:15. > :27:20.Treasury would have a strong view with regard to the UK as a halt. I
:27:20. > :27:23.doubt very much, whatever the will of the members of this house,
:27:23. > :27:26.whether we would be given permission by the Treasury to
:27:26. > :27:30.legislate within Northern Ireland alone on this particular issue.
:27:30. > :27:33.That is the practical reality we have to deal with. It is fine to
:27:33. > :27:39.say this is what we want, in practical terms it may be that we
:27:39. > :27:45.cannot get what we want. In terms of our amendment, it is
:27:45. > :27:50.our view that given this problem is a direct result of the border, it
:27:50. > :27:55.is seemingly illogical that it cannot be tackled in any other way.
:27:55. > :27:59.We do accept the minister when he says that there has been increased
:27:59. > :28:06.co-operation across the border, but obviously not enough. I think I
:28:06. > :28:09.would reiterate the question. By Mr Bradley asking how many times have
:28:09. > :28:13.these parties met together, and how often and how much work had they
:28:13. > :28:20.done? That is something that needs to be improved.
:28:20. > :28:25.Brian, a final word. What do you make of the presidential election?
:28:25. > :28:30.It is a new dimension to Irish politics to have Sinn Fein, a Sinn
:28:30. > :28:36.Fein candidate. People have been surprised they hit the ground
:28:36. > :28:41.running, and he is looking pretty close to some of the other runners.
:28:41. > :28:45.He is ahead of the Fine Gael candidate, and they are the largest
:28:45. > :28:49.party in Government. So it is difficult to know at this stage,
:28:49. > :28:54.but all the candidates are quite close together and it is going to
:28:54. > :28:59.depend on transfers. Sinn Fein is not transfer friendly, no matter
:29:00. > :29:04.how good Martin McGuinness is. If he gets a good personal first vote,