:00:30. > :00:34.Welcome to the programme. One Downing Street denies lobbyists
:00:34. > :00:39.have influence government policy, could anyone here be pulling the
:00:39. > :00:43.strings of the MLAs? On the programme, the environment
:00:43. > :00:48.dominates the day but his son and deep capitalist the event that
:00:48. > :00:58.brings proceedings to a standstill. - back-row it is an anti-capitalist
:00:58. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:07.movement. Order! Order! And when business got going, more tackling.
:01:07. > :01:12.There is no licence for fracking in Northern Ireland. No licence has
:01:12. > :01:17.been issued, no licence has been issued and I do not know how many
:01:17. > :01:24.more ways I can say this. Fracking is safe as long as nothing goes
:01:24. > :01:34.wrong. Well, America shows things can go wrong. My guest is
:01:34. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :01:38.environmental lawyer, Andrew Lyon. We used to parties dividing along
:01:38. > :01:43.Orange and green lines but it was a green issue of a different picture
:01:43. > :01:46.that raised temperatures in the chamber today. Andrew Ryan is a
:01:46. > :01:53.partner with solicitors and specialises in environmental law.
:01:53. > :01:56.What sort of cases to you cover? do a broad range of work, from
:01:56. > :02:01.defending environmental Prosecutions, advising clients in
:02:02. > :02:06.terms of compliance with the lock, across to looking at environmental
:02:06. > :02:12.implications of planning. It is a broad area. What is the most common
:02:12. > :02:19.case you deal with? In terms of enforcement work, it is to deal
:02:19. > :02:23.with waste, and things like that. Fracking was not just a talking
:02:23. > :02:28.point inside the chamber. Dozens of protesters opposed to the process
:02:28. > :02:32.travelled to Stormont to hand in a petition of more than 2000
:02:32. > :02:37.signatures to MLAs. They claim it is dangerous and do not want the
:02:37. > :02:42.process carried out here. The Alliance and Green parties want
:02:42. > :02:47.more research into the impact of fracking and they tabled a motion
:02:47. > :02:51.calling on the economy Minister to withdraw the licences for fracking.
:02:51. > :02:55.I am bemused by the motion before us. It has been proposed by those
:02:55. > :02:59.to remind us of the need to identify and it lies alternative
:02:59. > :03:05.sources of energy. Yet there seemed to be paranoid about any effort
:03:05. > :03:15.made to find solutions to the energy needs. That is a load of
:03:15. > :03:23.
:03:23. > :03:33.BEEP! Order! Order! BEEP! Order! Suspend the sitting... This is
:03:33. > :03:34.
:03:34. > :03:38.suspended. The public are entitled to hear the debate. Any more
:03:38. > :03:43.interventions and I will ask the public gallery to be cleared. If
:03:43. > :03:48.you want to participate, listen and ask members. Do not refer to the
:03:48. > :03:52.public gallery and the gallery should not intervene. The US is
:03:52. > :03:58.where technology for the mining of fossil fuels is very strong. If
:03:58. > :04:04.those debts are urging the cautionary note, we should also
:04:04. > :04:09.pursue this. We are largely in favour of the motion, but we do
:04:09. > :04:16.recognise that the motion is very prescriptive at the last third,
:04:16. > :04:23.were it talks about emphasising only the energy sources, renewable
:04:23. > :04:28.sources. We must exploit the potential of shale gas. I notice
:04:28. > :04:32.that talk about how shale gas is going to encourage cheaper energy.
:04:32. > :04:36.I have not heard any guarantee about that. In the meantime, it
:04:36. > :04:40.could destroy what we have, it could destroy the agricultural
:04:40. > :04:44.industry and the tourism industry, it could destroy the water quality
:04:44. > :04:53.that be enjoyed and there are too many things that we know could go
:04:53. > :04:58.and no guarantees on cheap energy. Let me say, the premise of this
:04:58. > :05:02.motion is fundamentally flawed. There is no licence for fracking in
:05:02. > :05:05.Northern Ireland. No licence has been issued, a no hydraulic
:05:05. > :05:11.fracking licence has been issued and I don't know how many more ways
:05:11. > :05:16.I can say that. I have listened to members, all of them asking me and
:05:16. > :05:22.the motion asks me to withdraw the licences for hydraulic fracking.
:05:22. > :05:27.There are no licences. Indeed, nobody in Northern Ireland has a
:05:27. > :05:32.licence to extract oil or gas by any method currently. The Minister
:05:33. > :05:38.said it does not permit for any drilling and colleagues refer to
:05:38. > :05:42.this as a desktop exercise. Is there not even within this,
:05:42. > :05:48.permission for exploratory drilling? I have a licence which
:05:48. > :05:55.was granted. It's available on the internet. Anybody can check this.
:05:55. > :06:04.It does allow it for some drilling. To suggest drilling as desktop
:06:04. > :06:11.research is misleading. In year four and five, it allows for
:06:11. > :06:15.secondary exploration wells. member is wrong in addition to that.
:06:15. > :06:19.They have to apply to the Department for the licence for
:06:19. > :06:25.fracking and they also have to apply for planning application and
:06:25. > :06:29.for the environmental impact assessment. It is outlined in the
:06:29. > :06:35.licences. There might be further permission is necessary but it is
:06:35. > :06:40.within their licence. This is a licence which includes fracking,
:06:40. > :06:46.multiple horizontal laying and processed on a train. People can
:06:46. > :06:49.check this. There was confusion about whether the exploratory work
:06:49. > :06:54.the Enterprise Minister referred to would involve any fracking. She
:06:54. > :06:59.told me it would not. You have the borehole, I came to boring a hole
:06:59. > :07:06.for water, which farmers will be familiar with. They take samples of
:07:06. > :07:11.rock. No fracturing can take place. Until planning application has been
:07:11. > :07:15.met. He does seem unclear whether they do have to come back to you
:07:15. > :07:21.and ask for further information. Every licensee under stands they
:07:21. > :07:24.cannot do any invasive drilling without an application. To
:07:24. > :07:28.ourselves, the Department of Environment and the environmental
:07:28. > :07:32.impact assessment. It is very clear that anybody who does undertake
:07:32. > :07:37.this, and these are reputable companies, they know they have to
:07:37. > :07:42.apply for that. The Assembly has spoken, what difference will that
:07:42. > :07:45.make? We listen to the Assembly and what it has to say but if I was to
:07:45. > :07:50.revoke the licence that currently exists and that isn't what the
:07:50. > :07:55.motion calls on me to do, it calls are made to revoke licences which
:07:55. > :07:59.allowed fracturing and there are none. The motion was flawed. That
:07:59. > :08:02.is what I tried to explain today. Unfortunately, some members were
:08:02. > :08:06.not listening and there are no licences so it is difficult to
:08:06. > :08:12.revoke licences that matter not there. Or was today's debate a
:08:12. > :08:17.waste of time? It gives us a chance to listen to members' concerns, the
:08:17. > :08:21.concerns they have picked up from across the world, a lot of people
:08:21. > :08:25.don't live in Northern Ireland, they were coming across to express
:08:25. > :08:29.concerns as to what happened in their jurisdiction. In Northern
:08:29. > :08:33.Ireland it's a different situation, we have all the protections in
:08:33. > :08:37.place and I would not have it any other way. This is where I live. I
:08:37. > :08:40.want to ensure we do this in a responsible way and that we look at
:08:40. > :08:45.alternative energy sources. It would be wrong not to it but we
:08:45. > :08:51.only do so when it is environmentally safe. And a low
:08:51. > :08:56.table today's motion and she is with us. Was it flawed? -- Anna Lo.
:08:56. > :09:00.Flawed in what way? She said there are no licences for fracking so the
:09:00. > :09:06.wording of the motion was wrong? is important that we look at this
:09:06. > :09:11.process fairly carefully. The Minister has issued licences for
:09:11. > :09:20.exploratory work to investigate and explore the potential for fracking
:09:20. > :09:26.in Northern Ireland, and it has been banned in the USA and France
:09:26. > :09:32.and in Germany. And now it is happening in Northern Ireland.
:09:32. > :09:37.There is a potential in Northern Ireland. And we really have not
:09:37. > :09:44.looked at the seriously and it is a process that can have and has been
:09:44. > :09:50.shown to have health issues, to have environmental damaging issues.
:09:51. > :09:56.And we cannot let this go simply by saying, we will let them look at it.
:09:56. > :10:03.Without a full impact assessment. Were you satisfied with Arlene
:10:03. > :10:08.Foster's explanation? We are not. She says the planning service will
:10:08. > :10:14.have a look at this and will carry it out with the environmental
:10:14. > :10:17.impact assessment. In Northern Ireland, I do not know about within
:10:17. > :10:22.the environmental planning framework, if we have the
:10:22. > :10:32.Competency to look at this and have a rigorous, full and comprehensive
:10:32. > :10:33.
:10:33. > :10:36.assessment on this. Within the EU directives, the amount of gas being
:10:36. > :10:43.extracted would be below the threshold for the full impact
:10:43. > :10:48.assessment to be carried out. What we are asking is for an independent,
:10:48. > :10:55.rigorous environmental impact assessment. Carried out not by the
:10:55. > :11:00.deal a but relayed by a university or someone with the expertise to
:11:00. > :11:05.carry this out. So that we are satisfied that it isn't going to
:11:05. > :11:09.cause long-term consequences for Northern Ireland. Andrew, this is
:11:09. > :11:15.your area of expertise. Do you think we need an independent body
:11:15. > :11:25.to look at this order are the procedures robust enough? In terms
:11:25. > :11:31.of the legal framework it by be robust. In so far as the framework
:11:31. > :11:35.is there in terms of the potential impact but whether it is a lack of
:11:35. > :11:40.knowledge is with the technical expertise in what that impact might
:11:40. > :11:44.be. And that is possibly were there could be a problem in the future
:11:44. > :11:49.because the expertise locally and nationally might not be there to
:11:49. > :11:53.understand what is still an emerging and fairly novel process.
:11:53. > :11:57.Even the word fracking has come into Our Language very quickly over
:11:57. > :12:06.the last couple of weeks. It is that something you are looking up
:12:06. > :12:09.now? Cases in America? It is any days and a lot of concern seems to
:12:09. > :12:14.be in America about the environmental issues that have been
:12:14. > :12:20.raised. You have to contrast the American system with the UK and the
:12:20. > :12:25.ear, were there are more rigorous controls on environmental processes
:12:25. > :12:28.but what it comes down to is having the knowledge and expertise to
:12:28. > :12:33.apply that regulatory framework to what is going on and that is where
:12:33. > :12:38.problems could arise. What happens next? Effectively, nothing can
:12:38. > :12:45.happen as a result of today's motion? We need to continue to
:12:45. > :12:50.raise the concerns of the public, particularly in Fermanagh. I want
:12:50. > :12:56.to follow what on Andrew's point. Northern Ireland, the Environment
:12:56. > :13:06.Agency is a very small branch within the DoE. It has been known
:13:06. > :13:11.to have a lack of resources and I have a lot of respect for these
:13:11. > :13:16.people doing their best within these constraints and to be able to
:13:16. > :13:21.regulate the processes once it has been installed, but they don't have
:13:21. > :13:27.the resources to do that. They don't have the technical know-how.
:13:27. > :13:32.How do we know the process is being regulated? At the moment there are
:13:32. > :13:35.thousands of cases of water pollution, R Care Quality
:13:35. > :13:40.Commission, they have not brought many cases out for prosecution
:13:40. > :13:46.because simply there is a lack of resources within the department.
:13:46. > :13:50.Thank you very much. You will have to leave it there. The Deputy First
:13:50. > :13:54.Minister was taking questions today but if you were expecting to hear
:13:54. > :13:59.something on the Maze development which had been promised, it was to
:13:59. > :14:03.be a disappointing session. Also up was a Social Development Minister,
:14:03. > :14:09.who concentrated on Warm Homes. First, a question on the recent
:14:09. > :14:14.controversy surrounding Belfast's lord mayor. What impact does a
:14:14. > :14:18.First Minister believe it will have on equality issues given the recent
:14:18. > :14:28.decision by the Belfast Lord Mayor not to present at Duke of Edinburgh
:14:28. > :14:30.
:14:30. > :14:36.award to a local young female Obviously this has been a sizable
:14:36. > :14:41.story in the media. It has generated a lot of heat. I welcome
:14:41. > :14:45.very much the fact that the Mail has apologised for what was
:14:45. > :14:52.undoubtedly a mistake. There is a clear commitment that that would
:14:52. > :14:58.not be repeated. -- the Mayer. People should resist the temptation
:14:58. > :15:03.to inflame the situation any more than it has been. The important
:15:03. > :15:10.thing to do is whenever someone makes a mistake is to put your hand
:15:10. > :15:14.up and apologise. As far as I am concerned, he was big enough in the
:15:14. > :15:20.first instance to attend the Duke of Edinburgh award presentations,
:15:20. > :15:26.and in the second instance, he put his hands up and made it clear that
:15:26. > :15:32.he should apologise and he did apologise. The apology was fulsome.
:15:32. > :15:37.I think it is important not to make a meal out of it but to move on, to
:15:37. > :15:44.understand that certain circumstances will be a challenge
:15:44. > :15:48.for all of us. What we all have to do is continue to stretch out the
:15:48. > :15:52.hand of friendship to each other. We should not make life difficult
:15:52. > :15:58.for each other, as I am afraid in this circumstance we saw that
:15:58. > :16:04.happen. The junior minister was on her feet to answer the next
:16:04. > :16:08.question on the planned enquiry into historical institutional abuse.
:16:08. > :16:13.The minister will be aware of the reports produced by the Roman
:16:13. > :16:17.Catholic Church this week. The ones relevant to Northern Ireland, will
:16:17. > :16:21.they be included in this enquiry, and when we look at the needs of
:16:21. > :16:27.the victims and survivors, can that Minister assure us they will be
:16:27. > :16:33.given the most important privilege preference in all this, and not the
:16:33. > :16:38.needs of the legal profession? was one of the arrears when we were
:16:38. > :16:48.talking to the victims they had asked us to ensure this enquiry has
:16:48. > :16:52.not overlook them. We are aware of the reports, it relates to the
:16:52. > :16:58.north here. The reports did not deal with abuse, but rather look at
:16:58. > :17:01.how the Church have already dealt with allegations of abuse. The
:17:01. > :17:06.general theme we have seen from the reports has been that the church
:17:06. > :17:13.was more concerned with protecting the image than protecting the
:17:13. > :17:17.children and who were being abused. This is totally unacceptable, and
:17:17. > :17:22.those within the Church hierarchy will need to examine their
:17:22. > :17:29.consciences this -- their conscience with regard to this. The
:17:29. > :17:32.way in which they obsessively conceal the abuse, the reports
:17:33. > :17:36.indicated procedures are now in place to ensure it allegations of
:17:36. > :17:46.abuse are reported to the proper authorities, and we will be
:17:46. > :17:47.
:17:47. > :17:56.properly monitoring it. We met with a member of the safeguarding board,
:17:56. > :18:01.and we intend to keep in touch with him. We will establish and ensure
:18:01. > :18:05.that the chair of the enquiry will be able to make recommendations to
:18:05. > :18:10.us if they feel there are other steps and issues that they could
:18:10. > :18:18.take account of. This week's falling temperatures has made fuel
:18:18. > :18:23.poverty even more topical, although it is rarely far from bit agenda.
:18:23. > :18:28.The minister got annoyed by this in due full -- got annoyed by this
:18:28. > :18:33.issue. The minister has highlighted the nature of the problem, when
:18:33. > :18:42.will he take effective action to deal with those who are in serious
:18:42. > :18:48.difficulty? I do not know where the member has been for the last mile,
:18:48. > :18:54.because there has been many announcements about this. -- the
:18:54. > :18:59.last month. It is not a case of talking about it, but doing things.
:18:59. > :19:05.We have in place a scheme for Warm Homes, while a replacement, ongoing
:19:05. > :19:10.improvements, the member can shake his head as much as he once, but
:19:10. > :19:14.the fact is, when people are doing something and delivering, he should
:19:14. > :19:19.at least acknowledge that it is happening. Not in your head in the
:19:19. > :19:23.corner of the room will not do much to address fuel poverty, but the
:19:23. > :19:31.actions been taken by his department are delivering. --
:19:31. > :19:38.shaking your head. Will the Minister ensure that a housing a
:19:38. > :19:45.polity spends all it can on double glazing? -- that those in authority.
:19:45. > :19:49.Double-glazing is a matter of public interest. It is important
:19:49. > :19:54.too tense and important to the construction industry. It is
:19:54. > :19:59.important we put down the message clearly. -- important to homeowners.
:19:59. > :20:05.I do not anticipate and I will not accept any failure in this regard.
:20:05. > :20:10.It is imperative that a housing executive makes sure at the �2
:20:10. > :20:15.million already allocated has been spent and therefore we are able to
:20:15. > :20:20.come back for the second amount of �2 million to make up the total of
:20:20. > :20:24.�4 million. This was agreed with the finance minister. If there are
:20:24. > :20:29.issues here that need to be addressed very quickly, the message
:20:29. > :20:36.will be going clearly and I am due to meet the housing executive on
:20:36. > :20:42.Thursday. At the top of that agenda will be ensuring that all �4
:20:42. > :20:45.million is able to be used, and that it is all spent. Companies Act
:20:45. > :20:50.they are looking for work in the construction industry and
:20:50. > :20:59.homeowners are looking for double glazing. -- companies are looking
:20:59. > :21:04.for work. Staying with our environmental theme, and a new
:21:04. > :21:14.strategy has been revealed aimed at tackling environmental and heritage
:21:14. > :21:14.
:21:14. > :21:21.crime. They will launch a crackdown on waste, wildlife and historic
:21:21. > :21:25.buildings. The minister also revealed he is considering
:21:25. > :21:29.strengthening the law on metal theft. We need to ensure those who
:21:29. > :21:36.break the law will be robustly dealt with. That is what we are
:21:36. > :21:41.doing today. We will at departments working together to ensure
:21:41. > :21:46.criminals are prosecuted more vigorously. There is responsibility
:21:46. > :21:53.on the judges and courts to impose more severe penalties on those
:21:53. > :21:59.gangs responsible for at the most damage. The theft of metal is
:21:59. > :22:03.becoming an increasing problem, that is recognised in London, where
:22:03. > :22:09.they are bringing forth new legislation. I have instructed my
:22:09. > :22:12.own officials to school boat whether we need new legislation. --
:22:12. > :22:20.to look at whether. We will demonstrate that whatever the
:22:20. > :22:29.history, we will pursue and prosecute individual criminals and
:22:29. > :22:32.criminal gangs for damaging the environment. That is the measure of
:22:32. > :22:36.what the Government should be doing in the future going forward. With
:22:36. > :22:41.their putting words in the mouth of the minister, he seemed to be
:22:41. > :22:49.saying Bilal was robust but the courts are not been robust enough.
:22:49. > :22:53.-- the law was robust. Is that the case? Generally, yes. In terms of
:22:53. > :23:00.the law itself, there are different environmental crimes and the
:23:00. > :23:07.different penalties can be quite stringent. There can be large fines
:23:07. > :23:11.and imprisonment, but those are not vigorously enforced by the courts.
:23:11. > :23:15.Quite significant environmental offences have ended up with fairly
:23:15. > :23:18.low penalties. That is changing over time, but there is a sense
:23:19. > :23:24.that certain types of crimes are not recognised for the serious
:23:24. > :23:29.nature of them. It also reflects on the enforcement procedures of the
:23:29. > :23:33.Environment Agency. There has been a perception in the past the that
:23:33. > :23:38.the Environment Agency is not going after particularly serious
:23:38. > :23:45.criminals. That is things like waste disposal operations, and
:23:45. > :23:55.there is a perception that within the legitimate waste at business,
:23:55. > :24:00.
:24:00. > :24:06.they are being over-regulated. Interesting points. Two MLAs are
:24:06. > :24:10.back in the chamber looking more clean-shaven. They grew moustache
:24:10. > :24:17.is aware awareness -- to raise awareness of cancers affecting men.
:24:17. > :24:22.I caught up with them and ask them why they got involved.
:24:22. > :24:26.colleagues were involved last year, obviously the females could not
:24:26. > :24:30.take part, but she inspired the male colleagues to get involved.
:24:30. > :24:36.There is a need to raise discussion and debate around men's health
:24:36. > :24:44.issues. We were very grateful to be involved in raising awareness and
:24:44. > :24:50.funds. How much did you raise? raise around �800. Hopefully we
:24:50. > :24:55.will get a few more work involved next year. Years was quite over the
:24:55. > :25:03.top, did it take a lot of work? -- your moustache. It just grew itself
:25:03. > :25:10.unfortunately. I did not do too much pruning. You had a few
:25:10. > :25:20.comparisons. I had a few. I was compared to a character from a
:25:20. > :25:20.
:25:20. > :25:27.sitcom. I was also compared to Charles Bronson. The convict, not
:25:27. > :25:37.the actor. What about the women in your life, what did they think of
:25:37. > :25:40.
:25:40. > :25:44.it? My girlfriend was pleased I took it off. Recent events at
:25:44. > :25:48.Belfast City Hall reached the chamber today as we heard earlier,
:25:48. > :25:54.with the exchange between Tom Elliott and Martin McGuinness. Our
:25:54. > :26:03.political editor had more detail. It has been a big controversy but
:26:03. > :26:08.it reached Stormont with Martin McGuinness making it clear that the
:26:08. > :26:16.big mistake had been made. At the same time, Sinn Fein is looking for
:26:16. > :26:20.Unionists to draw a line on this. What is this we're hearing about
:26:20. > :26:23.two of our committees heading south? They time that wrong if they
:26:23. > :26:30.want any bargains, because the Irish budget will make everything a
:26:30. > :26:35.bit more of -- a bit more expensive. The Regional Development Agency are
:26:35. > :26:43.having a meeting on the enterprise trained on the way down. They are
:26:43. > :26:51.getting a briefing about the development of rail services. They
:26:51. > :26:55.hope to end the meeting before their journey has finished. The
:26:55. > :27:00.environment committee are also going down. They will have a joint
:27:00. > :27:07.meeting with counterparts, and they will consider a different mode of
:27:07. > :27:14.transport, they are getting a briefing from Tyre Manufacturers'
:27:14. > :27:23.about environmentally friendly tyres. They will be burning rubber
:27:23. > :27:27.metaphorically. Some interesting issues raised tonight about
:27:27. > :27:35.fracking and environmental crime. Why do you think there has been
:27:35. > :27:38.less of a punishment handed out by some of the courts? I think it is
:27:38. > :27:42.because certain environmental crimes are seen as a victimless
:27:42. > :27:49.crime. It is difficult to put a price on the cost of the impact on
:27:49. > :27:52.the environment in the short term. What needs to be done? Do we need
:27:52. > :27:58.an independent environmental protection agency? To a certain
:27:58. > :28:02.extent, that would assist in so far as it is separate from any
:28:02. > :28:07.influence from government. In terms of enforcement it is not that
:28:07. > :28:11.important. What is more important is educating the courts and
:28:11. > :28:17.magistrates as to the seriousness of these crimes. Educating the