:00:27. > :00:28.Hello and welcome to this extra edition of Stormont Today,
:00:29. > :00:30.where MLAs have spent the day debating a range of amendments
:00:31. > :00:38.The complex and controversial issue of abortion
:00:39. > :00:39.in cases of fatal foetal abnormality
:00:40. > :00:41.was always likely to dominate proceedings -
:00:42. > :00:44.but there was another story that got people talking in the corridors
:00:45. > :00:46.here - the fallout from the DUP MLA Jim Wells'
:00:47. > :00:47.whispered comments about women
:00:48. > :00:50.at the beginning of a recent Public Accounts Committee meeting.
:00:51. > :00:53.An Alliance MLA behind one of this evening's
:00:54. > :00:55.amendments regrets what he sees as the restrictions
:00:56. > :01:07.placed on some of his fellow Members.
:01:08. > :01:14.Sadly there are those who will make their decisions today due to the
:01:15. > :01:15.influence of party whips, rather than through free expression of
:01:16. > :01:16.their conscience. But MLAs do vote to help the law try
:01:17. > :01:27.and keep up with modern technology. At the time the legislation was
:01:28. > :01:32.drafted, nobody envisaged the type of world we would be living in
:01:33. > :01:35.today, where we all have smartphones capable of taking photographs,
:01:36. > :01:37.videos and they are capable of being shared online instantly.
:01:38. > :01:39.And I'm joined by Professor Rick Wilford
:01:40. > :01:41.for his take on another busy day inside - and outside -
:01:42. > :01:48.It was over eight hours into today's added sitting before Members
:01:49. > :01:51.got to the main event - the final set of amendments to be
:01:52. > :01:55.including those dealing with abortion.
:01:56. > :01:57.And the sitting ran late into the evening.
:01:58. > :01:59.The contentious proposal was to allow abortion in situations
:02:00. > :02:02.of fatal foetal abnormality and the arguments on both sides
:02:03. > :02:13.have been well rehearsed both inside and outside the chamber.
:02:14. > :02:17.some of the parties made their positions clear.
:02:18. > :02:23.If there is another place to do legislation apart from Stormont, I
:02:24. > :02:26.would like to hear or it is in Northern Ireland. I think the
:02:27. > :02:31.objective for the DUP's working group is to get us down until after
:02:32. > :02:39.the election. They have set a deadline of six months. Currently
:02:40. > :02:44.the looking not in our but the Ulster Unionist Party also, they
:02:45. > :02:47.have a free vote. Another one that has come across two hours this
:02:48. > :02:52.morning. We will see where we are in a few hours. Our MLAs will both of
:02:53. > :02:56.their individual conferences dictate and I do not know how that is
:02:57. > :02:59.because I do not think it would be appropriate as leader to ask them
:03:00. > :03:01.and give the belt I was trying to influence them, because I think they
:03:02. > :03:06.know from my public statements that I would support a change in the law.
:03:07. > :03:12.I am uncomfortable as a man telling a woman what to do with the body.
:03:13. > :03:17.The SDLP will be voting against each of those amendments. We are a
:03:18. > :03:23.pro-life party. These amendments have been stuck on to adjust
:03:24. > :03:27.something which never was to deal with such an emotive and
:03:28. > :03:32.controversial issue as abortion. We believe that women should have the
:03:33. > :03:37.option to decide if they choose to go ahead with the pregnancy in
:03:38. > :03:40.relation to fatal foetal abnormality. This is about women
:03:41. > :03:46.making the decision and we believe that they should have the option to
:03:47. > :03:53.terminate or they have been victims of sexual crime where a woman's life
:03:54. > :03:53.was in danger. -- or where a woman's life.
:03:54. > :03:55.And Professor Rick Wilford is with me now.
:03:56. > :03:58.Rick, it's a subject that's been discussed many times in the past.
:03:59. > :04:00.And it continues to divide opinion in the chamber.
:04:01. > :04:07.It is, not only with between the parties but within some of. If you
:04:08. > :04:12.were going to tally up which we devote me go, I certainly think that
:04:13. > :04:19.the evidence and foreword by Alliance will be defeated. There
:04:20. > :04:22.should be at least low 40s in favour of the amendment in relation to
:04:23. > :04:30.sexual crime and foetal foetal abnormality. There are two things
:04:31. > :04:33.worth observing, the DUP chose not to voice concern on this occasion,
:04:34. > :04:38.maybe because they felt they had the numbers on the side of the argument
:04:39. > :04:42.anyway, namely the proposal to establish this panel, which will
:04:43. > :04:46.take six months to come up with what the party hopes will be an agreed
:04:47. > :04:51.position in relation to fatal foetal abnormality. That pitted comfortable
:04:52. > :04:55.beyond the Assembly election in May. I do not think there is necessarily
:04:56. > :04:58.going to prevent the issue being erased during the course of the
:04:59. > :05:03.campaign itself. -- being raised. I wonder whether there might be one or
:05:04. > :05:06.two chinks, if you like. It seems to be united front in the part of the
:05:07. > :05:10.DUP imposing these amendments and maybe one or two who are a bit
:05:11. > :05:18.morbid bowl on the issue... I think it is an issue that is worth
:05:19. > :05:21.pressing MLAs on and I certainly think the Ulster Unionist Party is
:05:22. > :05:25.on the right thing in allowing members to vote according to their
:05:26. > :05:30.own consciences because this is ultimately a key personal matter. It
:05:31. > :05:35.is permanently a matter for women. And there is something, I think,
:05:36. > :05:41.better in the modes of some when you see a chamber dominated by men as it
:05:42. > :05:45.were determining and governing what might happen on the citizens of
:05:46. > :05:50.front. What do you make of the issue being dealt with in this manner, as
:05:51. > :05:56.a series of amendments to a much broader justice bill? It is not
:05:57. > :06:01.unusual. Quite often you get bills which are pejoratively described as
:06:02. > :06:04.blunderbuss pieces of legislation, in the sense that they have lots of
:06:05. > :06:10.clothes off and amendments and all the rest. I do not think it is an
:06:11. > :06:16.attempt to, if you like, bury the issue. One could not because it is
:06:17. > :06:19.so controversial. But it is a means of trying to, as it were, pushed
:06:20. > :06:25.through a set of changes in one market until the that it says the
:06:26. > :06:28.abortion amendments are included within it, I think, is not an
:06:29. > :06:31.appropriate. Thank you very much indeed.
:06:32. > :06:37.So let's get a flavour of the debate in the chamber.
:06:38. > :06:43.Today, Mr Speaker, I am asking members of this Assembly to take a
:06:44. > :06:49.decision based on this debate on how all the circumstances in history
:06:50. > :07:02.preceding it have influenced their conscience. Sadly, there are those
:07:03. > :07:06.who will make their decision due to the influence of party whips rather
:07:07. > :07:10.than through free expression of their conscience. This issue
:07:11. > :07:15.requires, demands, careful consideration from the medical
:07:16. > :07:18.professionals, from practitioners, from families, from Essex and legal
:07:19. > :07:26.experts, to ensure sufficient and proper clarity and guidance are the
:07:27. > :07:30.hallmarks of the way forward. George Horner has stated that as it stands,
:07:31. > :07:36.the law is not compatible with human rights. We, as legislators, should
:07:37. > :07:42.first and foremost about legislation that is human rights compliant. This
:07:43. > :07:46.series of amendments are proposing a major change to the law. Changing
:07:47. > :07:52.the law in this area, if it is to be done, needs to proceed with great
:07:53. > :07:56.care and widespread engagement with relevant stakeholders. On this
:07:57. > :07:59.occasion, this simply has not happened. The background is the
:08:00. > :08:04.Minister held a public on the station particularly around the
:08:05. > :08:10.issue of foetal foetal abnormality there is considerable public
:08:11. > :08:14.support. Foetal abnormality. My understanding, and the minister can
:08:15. > :08:19.directly because I do not speak for him, is that whilst he would have
:08:20. > :08:22.liked to have brought the FFA issue forward in this building could not
:08:23. > :08:35.get through, which is why we are here now. Under this is not limited
:08:36. > :08:37.to any conditions. -- under this amendment, fatal foetal abnormality
:08:38. > :08:46.is not limited to any conditions. Could it be used to abort foetuses
:08:47. > :08:50.with down syndrome or spina bifida? It has been made absolutely clear
:08:51. > :08:52.and everything that has been said in terms of the department
:08:53. > :08:59.consultation, in terms of the week this amendment is written, that we
:09:00. > :09:02.are talking about a fatal abnormality. Let us not add further,
:09:03. > :09:07.to oppose women suffering with such an issue, or indeed, to those who
:09:08. > :09:13.have children who suffer from down syndrome or some other limiting
:09:14. > :09:18.issue, which is not fatal. Making that comparison, you are straying
:09:19. > :09:25.into extraordinarily dangerous territory. Justice Warner had this
:09:26. > :09:28.to say, doctors know when a foetus has a fatal foetal abnormality. This
:09:29. > :09:34.is primarily a medical diagnosis, not a legal judgment. Will we not
:09:35. > :09:36.trust doctors to diagnose a fatal foetal abnormality?
:09:37. > :09:39.shows no sign of finding common ground,
:09:40. > :09:41.there was one part of the Justice Bill
:09:42. > :09:46.the offence of posting revealing videos or pictures online
:09:47. > :09:49.The DUP's Alastair Ross tabled the amendment
:09:50. > :09:52.to make the act a criminal offence in Northern Ireland
:09:53. > :09:58.and he found support from across the chamber.
:09:59. > :10:04.I want to the committee does not propose amendments to create a new
:10:05. > :10:07.offence of disclosing private sector photographs and films with the
:10:08. > :10:11.intent to cause distress, generally known as revenge pornography. We are
:10:12. > :10:15.looking at the creation of an offence similar to that created in
:10:16. > :10:20.England and Wales by the criminal Justice and Courts act earlier this
:10:21. > :10:22.year. Last year, sorry. Such behaviour is already totally
:10:23. > :10:27.unacceptable and it should be recognised that there are a number
:10:28. > :10:31.of existing laws in Northern Ireland to prosecute offenders, such as the
:10:32. > :10:34.offence of harassment, improper use of a communications network, even
:10:35. > :10:39.blackmail. The other point is the usual period on summary conviction
:10:40. > :10:42.would be improvement for a term not unseating six months, a fine or
:10:43. > :10:45.both. It is an issue of foetal which is what we have further
:10:46. > :10:49.consideration stage four. I am happy to except the will of the committee
:10:50. > :10:53.that we should proceed to make this amendment today. Bear I am sure
:10:54. > :10:56.members are aware of the stress, devastating and humiliation caused
:10:57. > :11:01.to victims when intimate films of autographs at the Usher with an
:11:02. > :11:09.individual, often had a trusted in possibly, I'd insured worldly. --
:11:10. > :11:13.widely. Most of -- then who they have trusted implicitly, as sharers
:11:14. > :11:20.widely on the Internet. Prosecutions could potentially be brought forward
:11:21. > :11:23.with current legislation but at the time it was drafted, nobody
:11:24. > :11:25.envisaged the day before we would be living in today, where we love
:11:26. > :11:30.smartphones capable taking photographs or videos, capable of
:11:31. > :11:33.being shared online almost instantly. Therefore, I think the
:11:34. > :11:47.law needs to keep the pace with some of the technological changes and
:11:48. > :11:53.recognise the world live in today. Perhaps there are pieces of it you
:11:54. > :11:58.were off, that it showed us that there were gaps in legislation with
:11:59. > :12:06.the Internet and particularly around a particular issue which people now
:12:07. > :12:11.call revenge porn. I in the chair is correct when he says, I know the
:12:12. > :12:16.Minister himself is accepting these amendments and I accept in how we
:12:17. > :12:20.deal with other aspects of this as we go forward. Because I think it is
:12:21. > :12:24.important and it is important for this reason, there are many people
:12:25. > :12:30.who are being subjected to this and they feel vulnerable and isolated.
:12:31. > :12:34.Another people who are using it for control and coercion and then either
:12:35. > :12:40.very, very clear signal that will not be tolerated. In terms of the
:12:41. > :12:47.amendment tabled by the Chair of the Justice committee in relation to
:12:48. > :12:55.what is described as revenge ash macro revenge porn. I think we have
:12:56. > :13:05.all been horrified to hear of the bad experiences that people... Some
:13:06. > :13:13.young, and some of the have had in relation to this and it seems to be
:13:14. > :13:19.a modern-day evil. So I think I very much welcome the fact that we are at
:13:20. > :13:24.least drinking the insulation in line with England and Wales. --
:13:25. > :13:26.bringing legislation in line. And that section of the Justice Bill
:13:27. > :13:29.was passed on an oral vote. Another part of the bill concerns
:13:30. > :13:31.the Prison Ombudsman. The bill would place the office
:13:32. > :13:34.on a statutory footing and allow the Ombudsman to launch
:13:35. > :13:36.an investigation at his While most of the seventeen
:13:37. > :13:39.amendments in this section were uncontentious, a Sinn Fein
:13:40. > :13:42.proposal which would compel people to assist in Ombudsman's
:13:43. > :13:52.investigations proved less so. In relation to the power to compel
:13:53. > :13:55.witness amendments 47 and 48 which Mr McConnell has tabled provide a
:13:56. > :13:59.power to enable the ombudsman to compel a person to assist in any
:14:00. > :14:04.investigation is it an offence and liable to a fine of exceeding level
:14:05. > :14:09.three if that is refused. This issue was raised with the committee by the
:14:10. > :14:14.Human Rights Commission who consider the effectiveness of the numbers
:14:15. > :14:18.and's investigations will be augmented by calling witnesses
:14:19. > :14:21.interview. When we discussed the interview with the current
:14:22. > :14:24.ombudsman, he believed it will be a cosmetic change and affect very few
:14:25. > :14:30.deaths in custody or complaints investigated. This is the
:14:31. > :14:34.opportunity to give the ombudsman capability and power to carry out
:14:35. > :14:39.investigations to deal with compliments and to provide the
:14:40. > :14:45.service of ensuring there is current accountability mechanisms in and
:14:46. > :14:50.around our presence. -- our prisons. The idea of compelling someone to
:14:51. > :14:53.give evidence and I certainly heard of this evidence given and he said
:14:54. > :14:59.there were no issues and that is good and fine. I wouldn't question
:15:00. > :15:04.it in anyway and that is a good state of affairs that the local
:15:05. > :15:09.operating with all investigations, but as the powers perhaps widen and
:15:10. > :15:13.parts we have seen under the minister's terms the powers of
:15:14. > :15:17.investigation will widen. None of us can predict the future that is why
:15:18. > :15:22.it is best that we give provision for the ombudsman if he sees fit or
:15:23. > :15:27.if she sees fit in the future to have that power. Public person to
:15:28. > :15:34.assist in any investigation under this, where not absolutely convinced
:15:35. > :15:40.-- we not absolutely convinced it is a right and proper amendment in
:15:41. > :15:45.relation to these matters. It's very difficult to conceive of a situation
:15:46. > :15:48.where you could actually compound a person to assist. You might be able
:15:49. > :15:53.to compel others and to attend somewhere or to arrive at some
:15:54. > :15:59.office or whatever, but you can not control that person to assist. It is
:16:00. > :16:03.almost the same as the fundamental concept of a criminal investigation
:16:04. > :16:07.and the right to silence. To suggest that in this context you can compel
:16:08. > :16:11.somebody, when in another context you clearly cannot comment you can
:16:12. > :16:16.certainly make some but the attendant, but what point? In this
:16:17. > :16:22.issue has arisen in other regards as well. It has a Briton in the past in
:16:23. > :16:27.regards to the role of the police ombudsman, it arises in terms of
:16:28. > :16:32.criminal investigations by the police every day. So I think we
:16:33. > :16:36.would need to be very sure would how one would do that as well as there
:16:37. > :16:41.was justification for doing it had at the moment, I do not see
:16:42. > :16:46.anything, certainly the measure which already exists in the Bill
:16:47. > :16:50.about penalties for those who would seek to obstruct the investigation
:16:51. > :16:55.are absolutely right. That is a very different issue from pretending
:16:56. > :16:56.somehow that you can actually compel somebody to give useful information
:16:57. > :16:58.if they are unwilling to do so. Sinn Fein is to lodge a complaint
:16:59. > :17:01.against the DUP MLA Jim Wells following an incident
:17:02. > :17:02.in the Assembly yesterday. It's alleged he confronted
:17:03. > :17:04.Sinn Fein's Megan Fearon Another complaint has already been
:17:05. > :17:08.lodged against Mr Wells for alleged sexist comments he made
:17:09. > :17:12.during a Public Accounts Committee Mr Wells says his remarks
:17:13. > :17:16.have been misunderstood. Here's the official Assembly
:17:17. > :17:58.footage of both incidents. And Rick has joined me
:17:59. > :18:01.again for a final word. Not for the first time,
:18:02. > :18:11.Jim Wells finds himself in a corner. I think in all recall the hot water
:18:12. > :18:16.he got into during the general election campaign last year and now
:18:17. > :18:21.here is at the centre of another political storm. Another storm of
:18:22. > :18:26.controversy. As it was politicians worth their salt will recognise that
:18:27. > :18:29.perception means an enormous amount in politics. And the fact is that
:18:30. > :18:36.people perceive as remarks as being an instance of casual everyday
:18:37. > :18:40.sexism. I'm not alleging that is what he intended, but that is the
:18:41. > :18:44.way in which some people will have perceived it and I suspect it is not
:18:45. > :18:47.going to do his prospects are getting a nomination for the DUP and
:18:48. > :18:53.its constituency very much good. It's going to be, as it were, again,
:18:54. > :19:00.at the centre of another row. This time of the alleged sexism. Brick,
:19:01. > :19:06.thank you very much indeed. That is it for tonight. Do join me for the
:19:07. > :19:11.The View Would. Thank you for watching.