:00:25. > :00:28.Coming up on the programme tonight: Incredible incompetence or wilful
:00:28. > :00:38.corruption? The Social Development Minister reveals the Housing
:00:38. > :00:39.
:00:39. > :00:44.Executive overpaid contractors by 18 million pounds. The scale of what
:00:44. > :00:47.has been uncovered has been a scandal. Let's not forget this is
:00:47. > :00:50.tax payers money. Ahead of the G8 summit this weekend, the First
:00:50. > :00:57.Minister says the Executive is close to agreeing a financial way forward
:00:57. > :00:59.with the UK government. We hope an announcement can be made in relation
:00:59. > :01:02.to the economic pact later this week. And our Political
:01:02. > :01:09.Correspondent, Martina Purdy, will be here with her analysis of today's
:01:09. > :01:14.Eighteen million pounds - that's how much the Housing Executive overpaid
:01:14. > :01:17.four contractors for planned maintenance work. The figure was
:01:17. > :01:20.revealed by the Minister for Social Development in a statement to the
:01:20. > :01:23.Assembly today. A review had already found that six firms were overpaid
:01:23. > :01:28.for response maintenance contracts, but the Minister said that paled in
:01:28. > :01:30.comparison to today's findings. We'll hear more from that statement
:01:30. > :01:39.in a moment, but first our correspondent, Martina Purdy, is
:01:39. > :01:43.with me. This is not the first time the Housing executive has been
:01:43. > :01:49.making the headlines. No, this is the latest instalment. There's been
:01:49. > :01:54.a series of problems around contract going back a few years which has led
:01:54. > :02:00.to controversy and a BBC investigation and a damning report
:02:00. > :02:07.from the public accounts committee. Basically, in 2011 Housing executive
:02:07. > :02:12.terminated a �70 million contract with Red Sky amid allegations of
:02:12. > :02:16.overcharging and substandard work. The Minister Nelson McCausland was
:02:16. > :02:23.convinced this was not an isolated case and believed the problems in
:02:23. > :02:26.the executive were widespread and he initiated a review. The findings of
:02:26. > :02:33.the review are coming out today that there are problems around
:02:33. > :02:36.maintenance contractors to the tune of �18 million has vindicated the
:02:36. > :02:44.Minister and it will add impetus to his desire to see change at the
:02:44. > :02:49.executive. The Minister will be more determined than ever perhaps to
:02:49. > :02:54.transform the executive. Yes, and the Minister would like to scrap the
:02:54. > :02:58.Housing executive but when the media speculated that was his intention,
:02:58. > :03:05.he had to row back because he ran into difficulties with the executive
:03:05. > :03:09.that it's fairly clear the plan is radical changes, breaking up the
:03:09. > :03:14.executive, he wants to take the executive, stop it being a landlord
:03:14. > :03:21.to the 90,000 houses and it would be in charge of waiting lists and
:03:21. > :03:27.management and other bodies would look after the housing stock.
:03:27. > :03:30.There's been some robust reaction to this financial scandal. There has
:03:30. > :03:34.been considerable reaction, some of it is putting it back on the
:03:34. > :03:40.ministers Department saying the department has questions to answer,
:03:40. > :03:47.Michael Copeland said it was a catastrophic failure of the
:03:47. > :03:51.Department to exercise appropriate Judah legend is and we heard from
:03:51. > :03:54.Mark Durkan who said it is shocking in light of the housing shortages
:03:54. > :03:56.and what would have been done with the money instead. Thank you for
:03:56. > :03:58.now, Martina. We'll hear more from you later.
:03:58. > :04:07.Let's hear more now from that statement by the Minister, Nelson
:04:07. > :04:11.McCausland. The findings are extremely disappointing. Given the
:04:11. > :04:17.scrutiny the organisation is already under for its management of response
:04:17. > :04:24.maintenance contracts and I totally concur with this. The figure is
:04:24. > :04:33.estimated to be some �18 million. Let me say that again, in case you
:04:33. > :04:37.misheard. �18 million in overpayments to four contractors. I
:04:37. > :04:46.have been advised by the Housing executive that the contractors are
:04:46. > :04:52.PK Murphy, barn, mascot and Dixons. I am sure you are astounded at the
:04:52. > :04:57.amount. And wonder at the level of incompetence within the Housing
:04:57. > :05:03.executive that led to this state of affairs. The scale of what has been
:05:03. > :05:08.uncovered has been a scandal. Let's not forget this is the taxpayers
:05:08. > :05:14.money. It could have been used to build around 200 much needed social
:05:15. > :05:20.homes. In type -- in tackling these issues I appoint a new chairman,
:05:20. > :05:27.Donald Hoodless he was taken on a difficult job but is determined to
:05:27. > :05:31.put in place clear governance and assurance -- systems to tackle the
:05:31. > :05:35.issues and make the organisational changes that are required to bring
:05:35. > :05:41.this organisation into line as to ensure appropriate services are
:05:41. > :05:49.delivered to tenants, along with value for public money. What has
:05:49. > :05:58.happened in the past must not happen in the future. As yet, it is not
:05:58. > :06:07.clear if this is a result of incredible incompetence, or wilful
:06:07. > :06:12.corruption. Time will tell. Would he agree there is a legacy here of
:06:12. > :06:20.access pricing in contracts, a historic legacy of culinary trees
:06:20. > :06:28.and this has been used as a factor -- paramilitaries. It is not a new
:06:28. > :06:33.issue. Housing executive board shaken by contracts report, reports
:06:33. > :06:38.recommended this system should be changed, a headline in the Belfast
:06:38. > :06:42.Telegraph in 1978! So, more than 30 years ago there were issues about
:06:42. > :06:50.housing contracts, it is not new. What we have identified clearly if
:06:50. > :06:55.the scale and the scope of this, it's been identified �18 million and
:06:55. > :07:03.bear this in mind, when you are dealing with the �18 million, that
:07:03. > :07:08.is not spread evenly. In the case, I understand one of the contractors,
:07:08. > :07:18.highest amount was eight or �9 million overpaid. That is the scale
:07:18. > :07:24.of it. Can I ask, in view of this statement, he did say that there was
:07:24. > :07:32.problems with the contracts for over 30 years. Somebody somewhere should
:07:32. > :07:37.have seen what was happening and not allowed it to reach 18 million
:07:37. > :07:44.pounds of public money going astray. Could the Minister Teller, is there
:07:44. > :07:49.any possibility that somebody will be made accountable for this error
:07:49. > :07:54.and criminal proceedings will be initiated so that some of the money
:07:54. > :07:59.will be recouped on behalf of the taxpayer. We do need to get to the
:07:59. > :08:07.bottom of responsibility here. did this happen, how did it happen
:08:07. > :08:13.and people have two take responsibility for their actions. Or
:08:13. > :08:19.inactions, as the case may be. With the Minister agree that those
:08:19. > :08:24.elected representatives who made representation on behalf of East
:08:24. > :08:32.Belfast Red Sky and who were pilloried in the press are doing
:08:32. > :08:39.so, have now been completely ruined decay to -- vindicated. On the basis
:08:39. > :08:42.of the report, there is really no doubt that the issues with Housing
:08:42. > :08:48.executive contracts were not unique to Red Sky.
:08:48. > :08:55.Indeed, it is clear there were significant contractors engaged in
:08:55. > :08:59.similar practices. At the time that the Red Sky contracts were
:08:59. > :09:04.terminated, it was argued by some people that Red Sky was singled out
:09:04. > :09:08.and the motivation behind the decision was questioned. The
:09:08. > :09:13.department received representations from a number of political parties,
:09:13. > :09:18.as he knows from East Belfast, the DUP and ultimate unionists and
:09:18. > :09:28.Alliance party. All of the parties spoke out at that time on the
:09:28. > :09:30.
:09:30. > :09:34.matter. I have to say that the first point I made there, the other
:09:34. > :09:37.contractors that were around when gauged in similar prayer forces.
:09:37. > :09:39.That has been vindicated by the report. The Minister for Social
:09:39. > :09:47.Development, Nelson McCausland. Joining me now from the Committee
:09:47. > :09:52.for Social Development is Sinn Fein's Fra McCann.. What is your
:09:52. > :09:56.reaction to today's announcement? There is a lot the Minister said I
:09:56. > :10:02.could not disagree with. It is a scandal, a scandal that needs to be
:10:02. > :10:08.dealt with. But I draw the line, it is easy to say there is an �80
:10:08. > :10:14.million overspend but there is no flesh on the bones of how it
:10:14. > :10:19.originated and where it came from and where the money was paid out and
:10:19. > :10:23.who paid it out. Are you satisfied with the action the Minister has
:10:23. > :10:29.taken, there will be an audit and a review and he says serious questions
:10:29. > :10:36.need to be answered. I agree with that. I have no difficulty with that
:10:36. > :10:42.but I would go further and I am on record saying what he needs to do is
:10:43. > :10:46.include his own department in any review that takes place. When all is
:10:46. > :10:52.said and done, his department is the governing body, the parent body of
:10:52. > :10:59.the Housing executive and they have not picked up some serious problems
:10:59. > :11:04.that existed in contracts and there are serious questions to be answered
:11:04. > :11:08.and the buck stops with the Minister. He stood up today and said
:11:08. > :11:13.people must take responsibility for the actions or inactions. You saying
:11:13. > :11:21.the Minister is responsible? Minister has to be responsible for
:11:21. > :11:26.his actions. And I think when you look at this scandal going back, it
:11:26. > :11:31.originated at the time of the introduction of the contractors many
:11:31. > :11:36.years ago, there are a number of ministers including his predecessors
:11:37. > :11:42.who could have dealt with this over a period of time. You say the buck
:11:42. > :11:49.stops with him, �18 million of taxpayers money, are you saying he
:11:49. > :11:54.is responsible? Of course.He needs to have an independent enquiry, that
:11:54. > :12:02.needs to include the role and lack of leadership by his department and
:12:02. > :12:09.it leads to him. There needs to be flash put on the bones of what has
:12:09. > :12:15.been said today, not only is �18 million overpayment, in the past two
:12:15. > :12:19.or three years, there's been 25 million underspent. If he is found
:12:19. > :12:27.to have taken his eye off the ball, what then? He needs to make a
:12:27. > :12:32.decision whether his leadership or lack of leadership has to regular
:12:32. > :12:36.lead to not dealing effectively with what has happened. It is serious.
:12:36. > :12:42.�18 million, we are dealing with the longest waiting lists there has
:12:42. > :12:47.been, my constituency is chock-a-block at hostels are full of
:12:48. > :12:57.people trying to get houses, a �27 million underspent could have been
:12:58. > :12:59.
:12:59. > :13:05.spent on housing. We leave it there. Peter Robinson is
:13:05. > :13:07.hoping to announce an economic pact with the UK government. Pressing the
:13:08. > :13:11.government for the devolution of Corporation Tax remains a key
:13:11. > :13:16.protein. We are examining the actions that can be taken forward
:13:16. > :13:23.now so a devolved rates could be implemented as soon as possible
:13:23. > :13:26.after a positive decision by the UK government in 2014. We are
:13:26. > :13:31.disappointed the Prime Minister does not intend to make a decision on the
:13:31. > :13:36.devolution of Corporation Tax until 2014, the executive remains
:13:36. > :13:41.committed to securing these powers to rebalance the economy, create
:13:41. > :13:51.jobs and increased prosperity. Devolution will allow us to meet a
:13:51. > :13:57.shared objection -- objective to rebalance the economy. The proposals
:13:57. > :14:00.Karoly been developed as part of the impact will stimulate economic
:14:00. > :14:05.growth and its intended the measures will be put in place pending the
:14:05. > :14:11.Corporation Tax decision, we hope an announcement will be made later this
:14:11. > :14:16.week. It's important to state the measures being discussed as part of
:14:16. > :14:19.the economic pact are not sought as a replacement for Corporation Tax,
:14:19. > :14:26.the executive will continue to push for Corporation Tax powers to help
:14:26. > :14:30.provide stimulus to move the economy forward. We will consider the case
:14:30. > :14:34.for an additional fiscal powers to assist incoming growth and we are
:14:34. > :14:39.conscious of the implications for the grant and the Minister of
:14:39. > :14:45.Finance is pressing the government to take action on issues like fuel
:14:45. > :14:49.duty, short haul air passenger duty and VAT for the hospitality sector
:14:49. > :14:55.and construction sectors. The key element in terms of the Friday of
:14:55. > :14:59.this week, if that is the date we can get the pact agreed with her
:14:59. > :15:07.majesties government, the key element is not just the commitment
:15:07. > :15:10.they will definitely take a decision in 2014 but as important to us that
:15:10. > :15:19.if that's a positive decision, it will be implemented during the term
:15:19. > :15:23.of the coalition government. Could I ask him if he is aware of and
:15:23. > :15:29.whether he has given any consideration to the roofing paper
:15:29. > :15:37.is by Amnesty International, one covering child abuse and the other
:15:37. > :15:42.about abuse in the Magdalen laundry institutions. In relation to the
:15:42. > :15:49.abuse perpetrated by the clergy, that clerical abuse, it is no less
:15:49. > :15:56.important, or no less a motive than the institutional abuse, and we are
:15:56. > :16:02.mindful of the equally destructive impact that that abuse has upon
:16:02. > :16:06.individuals. I have said in the house before, following the enquiry
:16:06. > :16:10.into historical institutional abuse, it will be for the executive to
:16:10. > :16:18.consider how to deal with abuse that does not fall within the enquiry's
:16:18. > :16:23.terms of reference. In relation to the Magdalen laundry, I know there
:16:23. > :16:32.is a question later on, can I say that anyone who was resident here
:16:32. > :16:36.within the map: Laundries or similar institutions as a child, between
:16:36. > :16:41.1922 and 1995, can go forward to the enquiry into historical
:16:41. > :16:45.institutional abuse to relate their experience. They will be able to
:16:45. > :16:49.talk in private about their experiences to members of the
:16:49. > :16:53.enquiry acknowledgement forum, and the contact details are available on
:16:53. > :16:56.the website. The Junior Minister Jonathan Bell.
:16:56. > :16:58.There is clearly something going on with the distribution of energy
:16:58. > :17:01.costs here - that's what the Enterprise Committee was told last
:17:01. > :17:04.week when it heard from the Authority for Utility Regulation and
:17:04. > :17:08.local business representatives. A report found large businesses face
:17:08. > :17:18.some of the highest energy prices in Europe, as we can hear now in our
:17:18. > :17:18.
:17:18. > :17:22.weekly look at committee business. The main findings of our work was
:17:22. > :17:27.that domestic prices were around about the European average, which is
:17:27. > :17:33.not a bad place to be, given where we are in the energy supply chain.
:17:33. > :17:38.But we will come onto that later on. Also, the prices for small business
:17:38. > :17:47.customers were around the EU average and they make up 70% of the total
:17:47. > :17:54.businesses. For the remaining 30% of business customers, those using more
:17:54. > :17:59.than 20 megawatt and, prices were among the highest. We in Northern
:17:59. > :18:06.Ireland are challenged by our size and our isolation and our dependence
:18:06. > :18:10.on imported fuels. When you add that all up, we are not in a fantastic
:18:10. > :18:16.race to begin with. First of all, the utility regulator sets the
:18:16. > :18:24.amount of money that they can charge consumers and you all know that that
:18:24. > :18:28.issue, they did not accept the proposals for expenditure over the
:18:28. > :18:35.next five years. That issue is now with the petition commission to be
:18:35. > :18:40.resolved. We take the view that we scrutinised that long and hard and
:18:40. > :18:47.we are trying to do the best we possibly can for consumers whilst at
:18:47. > :18:50.the same time ensuring that we have the right level of investment in the
:18:50. > :18:59.network to maintain long-term reliability and security of supply
:18:59. > :19:04.for consumers. The other point is that, and it is the distribution.
:19:04. > :19:08.This is a key point, the distribution of network charges
:19:08. > :19:13.amongst different consumer groups. What is very interesting, when you
:19:13. > :19:17.compare us to the Republic of Ireland, network charges on average
:19:17. > :19:22.are 20% lower than they are on average in the Republic of Ireland.
:19:22. > :19:27.What is very interesting is when you look at what large users are paying,
:19:27. > :19:33.they are paying something like 20% higher. There is clearly something
:19:33. > :19:38.going on in distribution. The distribution of charges has to be
:19:38. > :19:44.significantly different and we can come back to that point that it is a
:19:44. > :19:50.key finding. What I would like to say is I run a small Northern
:19:50. > :19:55.Ireland company. We started off in Northern Ireland and we want to play
:19:55. > :20:05.our part in Northern Ireland. We want to be part of the food and
:20:05. > :20:10.
:20:10. > :20:18.Trent strategy. -- food and Trent strategy. -- drink strategy. Costs
:20:18. > :20:28.are close on forcing us to move the part of our production that goes to
:20:28. > :20:30.
:20:30. > :20:39.the mainland. We will save in some processes. We will save the guts of
:20:39. > :20:49.100,000 on alert visiting and we will save the cost of 100,000 on the
:20:49. > :20:50.
:20:50. > :20:57.transport -- we will save the cost of 100,000 on electricity. 100 staff
:20:57. > :21:01.would go. That is how serious it is in this moment in time. It is now
:21:01. > :21:05.four years since we first presented this problem to the committee.
:21:05. > :21:09.During that for years the only policies we have seen our policies
:21:09. > :21:14.which will make the problems worse, policies which will compound the
:21:14. > :21:16.problem and increase cost. There is no policy whatsoever to address the
:21:16. > :21:20.high cost. Bryan Gray from Manufacturing
:21:20. > :21:22.Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein was accused of "fairytale
:21:22. > :21:26.economics" by the Finance Minister today as he answered questions on
:21:26. > :21:29.the devolution of fiscal powers. First up, however, Sammy Wilson was
:21:29. > :21:37.asked how much his department has spent on flags and flagpoles in the
:21:37. > :21:42.last five years. The department has spent �7 on flags
:21:42. > :21:52.and flagpoles in the last five years. You can see that we get good
:21:52. > :21:58.bargains for the flag in Northern Ireland. Does the Minister recognise
:21:58. > :22:02.that by erecting flag poles in Belfast city centre, this could
:22:02. > :22:11.potentially raised tensions unnecessarily and further to that,
:22:11. > :22:16.was there consultation carried out by people before the decision?
:22:16. > :22:22.see, this question amazes me. People who objected to the steps of which I
:22:22. > :22:28.have taken, Mr Deputy Speaker, are actually responsible for the powers
:22:28. > :22:33.which I have exercised. I am exercising my powers through the
:22:33. > :22:42.flags and regulations Northern Ireland 2000 at it. What was the
:22:42. > :22:49.origin of this act? The origin of this act was the Belfast agreement.
:22:49. > :22:55.Who negotiated the Belfast agreement? Sinn Fein, the SDLP, and
:22:55. > :23:02.to end all state? Who encouraged people to vote for it? So I could
:23:02. > :23:06.almost say thank you to the members party for giving me the ability and
:23:06. > :23:11.for encouraging people to give me the ability to direct flags on
:23:11. > :23:17.government buildings in Belfast city centre. Many businesses have
:23:18. > :23:24.expectations that revaluation will lead to a lowering of rates and this
:23:24. > :23:31.is evident from the many radio broadcasts which we have heard.
:23:31. > :23:34.I ask the Minister what action he intends to take to manage those
:23:34. > :23:39.expectations? Some businesses will pay more because economic conditions
:23:39. > :23:44.have moved in their favour. market has pushed consumers towards
:23:44. > :23:48.certain types of businesses or areas. Some businesses will pay less
:23:48. > :23:53.because either the areas that are in, or the locations they are, have
:23:54. > :23:58.had a fall in the number of customers, footfall, economic
:23:58. > :24:03.activity and therefore that is reflected in the relevant rents that
:24:03. > :24:08.they pay. I think that is the first thing, to try and get this message
:24:08. > :24:12.over. The same of -- same amount of money will began that so there will
:24:12. > :24:16.be winners and losers. The Finance Minister, Sammy Wilson.
:24:16. > :24:19.And Mr Wilson had a busy day as he presented details of the budgets for
:24:19. > :24:29.the Stormont departments to the Assembly. More than eight billion
:24:29. > :24:38.
:24:38. > :24:42.pounds were up for discussion. resolution covers the house and the
:24:42. > :24:46.estimates are set up. The committee's scrutiny of the main
:24:46. > :24:51.estimates focused on scrutinising the background for the allocations
:24:51. > :24:57.for each department. The amounts of money is involved were significant
:24:57. > :25:02.including a total of almost �100 million in resource allocations and
:25:02. > :25:09.�313 million in capital allocations. The Minister did say rather
:25:09. > :25:14.encouraging words in relation to the current economic situation. I would
:25:14. > :25:19.hope that he would perhaps expand on that and give us even more
:25:19. > :25:25.encouragement in relation to the economic situation. It does seem to
:25:25. > :25:30.me that we are still in the doldrums. The current financial
:25:30. > :25:33.climate remains challenging as the amount of money for public
:25:33. > :25:37.expenditure in Northern Ireland continues. The Assembly wants those
:25:37. > :25:43.public funds that are available to be spent wisely. The Assembly must
:25:43. > :25:53.be able to hold to account those public oddities that have that task.
:25:53. > :25:55.
:25:55. > :26:02.-- those public bodies. And so I thought a new vibrant opposition
:26:02. > :26:10.party, NI 21, that there would be nothing for me to do today, but to
:26:10. > :26:17.my dismay I discover that we now have to add the acronym a wall --
:26:17. > :26:22.AWI OL to it. They must come forward and say with one voice, this is what
:26:22. > :26:26.we intend to do, this is where we will allocate resources and where
:26:26. > :26:34.there is clarity of vision, clarity of the way forward, we will provide
:26:34. > :26:40.the necessary oversight and clarity of presentation? It is nice to see
:26:40. > :26:47.that the new party of Northern Ireland is on a lead and that the
:26:47. > :26:56.end of a lead is Jim Allister. of a sudden, Mr MacRae appears in
:26:56. > :27:02.the chamber. I thought it was last Thursday, the 45 on Monday. There
:27:02. > :27:06.are signs of growth. But let's be realistic about this. There are
:27:06. > :27:14.still big chine just for us and since we plunged the very depths of
:27:14. > :27:20.the recession, it will take a long time and growth will be very slow.
:27:20. > :27:24.Even the predictions for the UK economy are for 1.5%. Going back to
:27:24. > :27:28.the heights of where we will does where we were before will take some
:27:28. > :27:38.time. Sammy Wilson. I'm joined again by
:27:38. > :27:38.
:27:38. > :27:44.our political correspondent, Martina Purdy. It will be a busy week with
:27:44. > :27:52.the G8 coming to town. We will have heard from Barack Obama. He will
:27:52. > :27:59.begin a keynote address. I think you will talk about seizing the
:27:59. > :28:05.initiative and keep on going. And what about the finance package?
:28:05. > :28:10.that happen before the G8? The First Minister suggested that could happen
:28:10. > :28:17.before Friday. Obviously, we were not expecting a big file --
:28:17. > :28:21.obviously, we are not expecting a big pile of money. There are
:28:22. > :28:30.enterprise zones which will create jobs and access to finance. It is
:28:30. > :28:35.not just Arab Obama coming to town, it is a pretty -- it is not just
:28:35. > :28:42.Barack Obama coming to town, it is a pretty impressive line-up. And there