13/02/2012

:00:24. > :00:28.Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Meryl Streep wins a BAFTA for

:00:28. > :00:32.playing a politician. Makes you wonder who might portray some of

:00:32. > :00:39.our MLAs on the big screen. On the bill tonight - Dominic

:00:39. > :00:45.Bradley battles mutiny on the Finance Committee. You are not

:00:46. > :00:54.doing it on our behalf. I am acting on behalf of the committee.

:00:54. > :00:59.Sammy Wilson is the invisible man. We cannot continue. I do not know

:00:59. > :01:02.whether Minister is, but I am confident he will return.

:01:02. > :01:12.And it's the lobsters from outer space as Patsy McGlone confuses his

:01:12. > :01:13.

:01:13. > :01:17.crustaceans. The lobsters would control the Starship, starfish?! Is

:01:17. > :01:20.that right? The Junior Minister Jonathan Bell

:01:20. > :01:23.told members last week that the issue of gay marriage was not under

:01:23. > :01:27.consideration. The issue was raised during a question session on the

:01:27. > :01:35.sexual orientation strategy which is due to be published soon. John

:01:35. > :01:39.O'Doherty is from the Rainbow Project. What was the reaction of

:01:39. > :01:42.people from you quit when they heard that? We were very

:01:42. > :01:46.disappointment with the comments made in the chamber last week. It

:01:46. > :01:50.is a ridiculous situation where in Northern Ireland no consideration

:01:50. > :01:54.is being given to the issue of gay marriage when we have had a

:01:55. > :02:04.commitment from the Prime Minister that he will look at this in 2012,

:02:05. > :02:11.

:02:11. > :02:15.2013. It is a ridiculous situation. It is time our Assembly became

:02:16. > :02:21.proactive in the serious issues. were the first region of the UK to

:02:21. > :02:31.have civil partnership. At Scylla lead. It is one of the most

:02:31. > :02:31.

:02:31. > :02:37.ridiculous parts of it. It is about time the Northern Irish Assembly

:02:37. > :02:43.started to lead on these issues. -- absolutely. What do you put it down

:02:43. > :02:46.to? It is difficult to understand. We expect leadership from our

:02:46. > :02:50.politicians. If they say we are opposed to this and it is something

:02:50. > :02:56.we will not look at for whatever the reason, we could understand

:02:56. > :03:03.that. But to be so belligerent, to not even want to discuss it or

:03:03. > :03:09.investigate the impact it will have on all Ireland -- on Northern

:03:09. > :03:17.Ireland, it's not good enough. about the issues for not just gay

:03:17. > :03:24.couples, but anyone who is not married? It is ridiculous that only

:03:24. > :03:28.married couples can adopt. We are being refused outright because our

:03:29. > :03:37.politicians cannot agree on a structure of adoption. Marriage is

:03:37. > :03:44.on the decrease and the number of eligible couples that are able to

:03:44. > :03:51.adopt are decreasing. We need to make sure that assessments are made

:03:51. > :03:53.on it will basis and not just marriage. Thank you.

:03:53. > :03:56.The Justice Minister revealed today that he has written to the

:03:56. > :03:59.Department of Culture at Westminster asking that TV licence

:03:59. > :04:01.evasion be treated as a civil rather than a criminal matter. His

:04:01. > :04:04.comment came during Question Time this afternoon. We will hear that

:04:04. > :04:07.shortly, but we start with questions to the Health Minister on

:04:08. > :04:12.problems with alcohol. The minister will be aware that

:04:12. > :04:17.last week the minister for social development was moving towards

:04:17. > :04:25.banning drinks promotion, which are targeted at young people. Will the

:04:25. > :04:31.Minister work and continue to work with the Minister for Social

:04:31. > :04:38.Development to apply at a minimum cost to a unit of alcohol so as to

:04:38. > :04:43.discourage under-age drinking? working closely with the minister

:04:43. > :04:46.of social development on this issue. We have had conversations with the

:04:46. > :04:50.Minister of Justice and other ministers because the issue of

:04:50. > :04:56.alcohol misuse is so prevalent in our was society and crosses so many

:04:56. > :04:59.boundaries. The answer about working with the Minister for

:04:59. > :05:09.Social Development - clearly we are working closely together. We are

:05:09. > :05:09.

:05:09. > :05:14.taking forward the cause of work on research leading on that, with the

:05:14. > :05:24.support of other agencies. It will be of interest to the House that I

:05:24. > :05:25.

:05:25. > :05:30.have engage closely as well with Mr Reilly in the Irish government.

:05:30. > :05:35.They are keen to introduce a minimum pricing for alcohol and

:05:35. > :05:40.they are keen that they do it at a similar time to us here in Northern

:05:40. > :05:46.Ireland. That is completely rational to ensure we do not have a

:05:46. > :05:50.situation where alcohol is cheaper on one side of the border than the

:05:50. > :05:55.other. So we are all working closely together on this issue

:05:55. > :06:05.because we cannot afford to be spending �250 million on the health

:06:05. > :06:09.service, or �900 million annually on the abuse of alcohol. Thank you,

:06:09. > :06:14.Deputy Speaker. I thank the Minister for what he has outlined.

:06:15. > :06:22.His the aware of any research that will link substance abuse,

:06:22. > :06:26.including alcohol and drugs, or with that of suicide?

:06:26. > :06:30.considerable amount of work has been done by various organisations

:06:30. > :06:35.and in terms of the link with suicide, substance abuse is thought

:06:35. > :06:40.to be a major factor in youth suicide and research from America

:06:40. > :06:44.has shown us that one in three young people were intoxicated at

:06:44. > :06:49.the time of the suicide attempt. When the Justice Minister got to

:06:49. > :06:59.his feet, he was asked about TV licence evasion and had some

:06:59. > :07:00.

:07:00. > :07:09.interesting statistics. In its 2009, 4006 TV licence evasion cases were

:07:09. > :07:17.tried at court. In 2010, there were over 5,000 prosecutions with over

:07:17. > :07:22.300 prosecutions. On average, around 150 people a year end up in

:07:23. > :07:29.prison following non-payment of a fine for television licence evasion.

:07:29. > :07:38.On the issue of imprisonment for TV licence evasion, it is a reserved

:07:38. > :07:44.matter. I had written to beat DCMS to explore the potential of civil

:07:44. > :07:48.action rather than criminal action being imposed. I thank the Minister

:07:48. > :07:53.for his response and appreciate that TV Licensing is a reserved

:07:53. > :07:58.matter, but he has indicated he has been in correspondence with the

:07:58. > :08:03.minister responsible. Can he ensured that the concerns people

:08:03. > :08:09.have in Northern Ireland that some areas are being unfairly targeted,

:08:09. > :08:15.unduly targeted at the exclusion or deference of other areas that are

:08:15. > :08:19.not been targeted for TV Licensing evasion. That that communication

:08:19. > :08:25.and that information will go back to TV Licensing to make sure there

:08:25. > :08:34.is an even spread across and Northern Ireland so that everyone

:08:34. > :08:38.who avoids buying the licence is treated equally. I am not sure I

:08:38. > :08:42.can answer the question as to exactly what areas are targeted on

:08:42. > :08:48.not targeted. I can only say that at that number of prosecutions, it

:08:48. > :08:56.appears there is significant action been taken by the TV licensing

:08:57. > :09:01.authorities. Where they operate is their decision and not mine.

:09:01. > :09:07.than the Minister for his answer. It is staggering that some 30 % of

:09:07. > :09:13.all were sections into our prisons in 2009, 2010, were for fine

:09:13. > :09:17.default. Meaning that 30 % of reception into prisons was for a

:09:17. > :09:26.few days. What proactive steps are being taken to reduce the number of

:09:26. > :09:33.these default and reduce the impact of fine defaulters? The fact we are

:09:33. > :09:40.talking about 30 % and close on 10 % of those up what non-payment of

:09:40. > :09:47.TV licence default fines, we have to be careful to say that people go

:09:47. > :09:51.to prison or for not paying the fine and not just the licence.

:09:51. > :09:59.high percentage of those numbers are women. A lot of them have young

:09:59. > :10:03.children. It is it -- is it not time that that process actually

:10:03. > :10:10.stopped and that women who have children and it is a first offence

:10:10. > :10:15.are not sent to prison for non- payment of a TV licence fine?

:10:15. > :10:21.appreciate the question. My understanding is that of those 150

:10:22. > :10:27.defaulters who end up in prison, 50 every year are women, which is a

:10:27. > :10:37.significant proportion. I need to be careful as to suggesting I

:10:37. > :10:39.

:10:39. > :10:44.should second-guess the decision of judges. We are seen to look at

:10:44. > :10:47.decriminalising the issue and having it dealt with by civil means.

:10:48. > :10:50.Once upon a time, they did seem to be the Cinderellas of Stormont, but

:10:51. > :10:53.now committees are getting all dressed up and heading to the ball

:10:53. > :10:56.as their profiles get higher and higher. And members are getting

:10:56. > :10:59.into their stride as they take on civil servants and ministers. We

:10:59. > :11:09.start our weekly look at the committees with public accounts,

:11:09. > :11:10.

:11:10. > :11:17.which scrutinises departmental Anything I have heard so far this

:11:18. > :11:22.afternoon tells me that Price Waterhouse Cooper, you're just a

:11:22. > :11:29.passenger on that. I would not accept that. You're not accountable

:11:29. > :11:34.to the public. He did not have to be elected. We do. Anybody

:11:34. > :11:40.listening, I am looking for some explanation that is plausible about

:11:40. > :11:47.a �900,000 contract, had that becomes 9.6 million? Hadaway sell

:11:47. > :11:52.that to the public? You have not sold back to meet. The original

:11:52. > :11:59.contract was for 972 plus possible extensions. At each stage, there

:11:59. > :12:03.were further extensions. Those were done on the basis of advice from

:12:03. > :12:10.procurement professionals and legal advisers and they went to the

:12:10. > :12:17.political system at an official and ministerial level. Would it be

:12:17. > :12:21.right today to do that? Have caused. That makes a nonsense of the

:12:21. > :12:26.procurement exercise. It tomorrow shows all of the message is going

:12:27. > :12:31.out from ministers in this assembly, the small and medium-sized business

:12:31. > :12:36.has a future in tendering for work with this assembly, based on what

:12:36. > :12:42.you have told me. I don't think so. This document that appeared Dunure

:12:42. > :12:50.website in the last few days sets out basically, if you like, but

:12:50. > :12:56.tests for a good procurement. -- the tests. It looks at the range of

:12:56. > :13:05.options. Was that done beforehand? Yes. And you did not know that the

:13:05. > :13:10.tender would run to �9.6 million. These were reported which produced

:13:10. > :13:16.options for the way forward. The decision was made in 2001. It was

:13:16. > :13:20.made to go with a particular option which led to the letting of this

:13:20. > :13:25.consultancy contract and the wider contract, so there was appraisal of

:13:25. > :13:31.options. You're giving me a history lesson which is not helping us to

:13:31. > :13:34.understand. You asked if the options were praised. They were.

:13:35. > :13:43.One of the criticisms of the Finance Minister was that he would

:13:43. > :13:48.not revise the Budget. At the did is a prudent step to take and it is

:13:48. > :13:55.a responsibility. -- I think it is a prudent step. Am not criticising

:13:55. > :14:02.a minister. I am asking on behalf of the committee, how the proper

:14:02. > :14:08.scrutiny measures would be implemented? You're not doing it on

:14:08. > :14:17.our behalf. I am acting on behalf of the committee, not my party. I

:14:17. > :14:22.want to make that clear. You need to be clear you're not doing it on

:14:22. > :14:27.our behalf. That is a serious allegation that I am acting in a

:14:27. > :14:34.party political role. By acts on behalf of the committee and on

:14:34. > :14:38.behalf of Committee solely. -- I act on behalf of the committee.

:14:38. > :14:45.I did not make reference to your party on what I said and you can

:14:45. > :14:51.check with Hansard. Your colleague did. I refute these allegations and

:14:51. > :14:53.I will move on. Staying with committees briefly and there were

:14:54. > :14:57.some fishy going-ons at the environment committee on Thursday

:14:57. > :15:06.when the SDLP's Patsy McGlone got his crustaceans mixed up with. Well,

:15:06. > :15:10.have a listen. When they closed that area, the lobsters came back

:15:10. > :15:16.and were big enough to eat the sea urchins. You have to be a right

:15:16. > :15:21.size to crack them open. That means that the calcium go back which

:15:21. > :15:29.meant that you had more lobsters. There were still sea urchins around,

:15:29. > :15:39.I do not say to wipe out starfish, that would be bad. Now trying to

:15:39. > :15:43.get this situation right. You're saying there is a layer on the sea

:15:43. > :15:52.floor her and you have starfish and USA in the nature of things would

:15:53. > :15:59.be that the lobsters would control the Starship. starfish! Is that

:16:00. > :16:05.right? X back more serious issues and we heard from the Health

:16:05. > :16:09.Minister. He was trying to decide if gay people could donate blood in

:16:09. > :16:13.Northern Ireland and now this strange situation where they cannot

:16:13. > :16:18.donate blood but begin import blood supplies from England, Scotland and

:16:18. > :16:21.Wales. Another ridiculous situation where we have the minister as

:16:21. > :16:26.saying that he has not made a decision after he says that he has

:16:26. > :16:31.made a decision that he is looking for further evidence. The reality

:16:31. > :16:36.is, gay, bisexual and men that have sex with men can donate blood in

:16:36. > :16:39.the United Kingdom and that can be sent to Northern Ireland to be used.

:16:39. > :16:44.It is a ridiculous situation and the minister needs to no one is

:16:44. > :16:48.immediately. We expect openness, transparency from our political

:16:48. > :16:53.leaders and the minister has shown none of this with this issue.

:16:53. > :16:57.about a lobbying, how to convince ministers on this case? We met with

:16:57. > :17:01.the health committee and gave evidence in relation to this banner

:17:02. > :17:06.and why we feel a 12 month deferral period would be more appropriate.

:17:06. > :17:09.The minister agreed to meet with us and we had met with a minister and

:17:09. > :17:13.he applied to he wanted to meet with and what would he needs to do

:17:13. > :17:17.before his decision. All of this work has been done and the evidence

:17:17. > :17:22.has been gathered and there is no reason why he cannot make a

:17:22. > :17:25.decision at this time. Interesting to see what happens. Thank you.

:17:25. > :17:30.The very technically titled Spring Supplementary Estimates kept MLAs

:17:30. > :17:33.on their toes in the Chamber for most of the day. A means of

:17:33. > :17:36.approving the draw down of funds. The Finance Minister had to listen

:17:36. > :17:39.as members got the chance to voice their concerns about all things

:17:39. > :17:47.financial. And he had to remind members on more than one occasion

:17:47. > :17:50.about the purpose of the motion. We are not talking about tax-

:17:50. > :17:57.raising powers, we are not talking about traditional levers, we're

:17:57. > :18:03.talking about the money being allocated to the year 2011, 2012

:18:03. > :18:06.and simply, the debate in this assembly today is to authorise the

:18:06. > :18:12.additional money that went into the department will budgets as a result

:18:12. > :18:17.of monitoring pounds, at department consequential loss and we are

:18:17. > :18:22.discussing this money and not the devolution of corporation tax or

:18:22. > :18:30.any other taxes. We have gone through three Monetary hands during

:18:30. > :18:36.this year. The house was never asked to approve them. It was never

:18:36. > :18:46.asked to vote on them. But now, today, at the end of the financial

:18:46. > :18:49.year, retrospectively, we get that opportunity. This is because the

:18:49. > :18:52.process is de facto concluded. With four and a half hours set

:18:52. > :18:55.aside for that debate. It's not surprising the finance Minister was

:18:55. > :19:02.a little late returning to the chamber after a break for question

:19:02. > :19:12.time. It really does seem perverse that the more successful they lead

:19:12. > :19:13.

:19:13. > :19:17.the heirs, a change in behaviour Bolivian come will be. -- the more

:19:17. > :19:23.successfully they behave, a change in the behave there that will come

:19:23. > :19:33.to be. Perhaps eschew deputy Speaker could advise us why the

:19:33. > :19:33.

:19:33. > :19:40.minister is not present, and when he will be? Yes, I had notice, the

:19:40. > :19:45.minister has knottier! Shall we wait for the minister to a bride of.

:19:45. > :19:48.I do not know whether Minister his, but I am confident that he will

:19:48. > :19:50.return to his place. Now in case you're still not

:19:50. > :19:53.exactly sure about Spring supplementary estimates, be patient

:19:53. > :19:55.you will be. And so with an explanation and some thoughts on

:19:55. > :20:03.how other governing bodies deal with the issue, here's Mark

:20:03. > :20:07.Devenport. It is one of those things we hear

:20:07. > :20:12.every year which is a big financial set piece that never means very

:20:13. > :20:16.much. We have a spring Supplementary estimates, One Day

:20:16. > :20:21.where we have the Assembly giving the Department the authority to

:20:21. > :20:25.spend the money they have spent in the financial year. You would think

:20:25. > :20:29.they have this authority anyway. Then there is the budget Bill which

:20:29. > :20:33.gives them permission to spend in next three months of the next

:20:33. > :20:39.financial year. We are told this is how Parliament does things, but I

:20:39. > :20:43.am sceptical, because what happens is, it never changes are anything,

:20:43. > :20:48.it is not like the big budget in the autumn were you see if the

:20:48. > :20:53.parties will support it or not. It goes in at one end and comes out at

:20:53. > :20:59.the other unchanged. Mark, you have done some investigation into this.

:20:59. > :21:02.I wanted to see how Westminster deals with this and they have an

:21:03. > :21:08.appropriation were estimates build known as the money belt and that

:21:08. > :21:14.goes through the House of Commons and that House of Lords and they do

:21:14. > :21:17.not have a big long debate about it. They do that because it is a bit of

:21:17. > :21:22.a foregone conclusion. The reason we have these debates is because

:21:22. > :21:27.there is an overhang from direct rule when the UK budget went

:21:27. > :21:33.through an Northern Ireland MP and it was drowned out by counterparts.

:21:33. > :21:37.Director will ministers gave the local MPs the chance to discuss and

:21:37. > :21:43.debate the local estimates as a form of accountability. -- a direct

:21:43. > :21:48.role ministers. That was kept on as transparency when we got to

:21:48. > :21:53.devolution. It is all very generalised and it is not much of

:21:53. > :21:57.an exercise in scrutiny. Is there a feeling we should scrap it and do

:21:57. > :22:00.it like Westminster does it? raised this with financial

:22:00. > :22:04.officials debate and they are looking at how it can be simplified.

:22:04. > :22:08.At the moment, if there are four lots of estimates and they think

:22:08. > :22:13.they can bring this down to one. They are considering they should go

:22:14. > :22:19.for that system of moving things through on the nod, as it were.

:22:19. > :22:23.They will require fresh legislation to get it through. It cannot happen

:22:23. > :22:27.until two years' time. The challenge is, how do you have real

:22:27. > :22:32.scrutiny because nobody is arguing that it shouldn't be looked at at

:22:32. > :22:37.all. It is an important matter, but it should happen in awake that

:22:37. > :22:41.affects what will happen. We heard from a former committee clerk who

:22:41. > :22:45.believes that the committee can play about a role in scrutinising

:22:45. > :22:50.the departments making financial decisions, rather than after the

:22:50. > :22:53.event and saying oh, woe is me if it does not go to plan.

:22:53. > :22:57.Deputy chair of the Finance Committee Dominic Bradley is here.

:22:57. > :23:04.To we need to simplify this with better scrutiny? We probably do. He

:23:04. > :23:08.will be aware that there was a motion after the debate on the

:23:08. > :23:14.spring Supplementary estimates. They voted on account and there was

:23:14. > :23:22.a debate initiated by the Finance Committee on the streamlining of

:23:22. > :23:27.the budgetary process. I think when that review has finished, we will

:23:27. > :23:32.get a more streamlined process which well maybe they eliminate

:23:32. > :23:38.more of the anomalies in the system at the moment. There was a lot of

:23:38. > :23:43.to-ing and fro-ing between yourself and other ministers? Yes, the

:23:43. > :23:47.debate on the spring Supplementary estimates gives members the chance

:23:47. > :23:52.to question a minister on the various movements of money, the

:23:52. > :23:56.surrenders of money and the bids and so on that have taken place in

:23:56. > :24:01.or what is known as monitoring grounds. As one member pointed out

:24:01. > :24:05.in this Clipper earlier, the Assembly does not have the

:24:05. > :24:11.opportunity to vote on Monetary hands, but it has the opportunity

:24:11. > :24:15.to vote on the result of those, and that is what happened here today.

:24:15. > :24:20.That is part of the problem, some of the money has already spent, so

:24:21. > :24:27.if people do not agree, there is not a lot they can do. A Yes, but

:24:27. > :24:31.they can interrogate the minister and the SDLP did that today. But he

:24:31. > :24:35.did bring up a lot of other issues that were relevant to the debates

:24:35. > :24:39.like welfare reform and the extension of fiscal powers.

:24:39. > :24:42.ministers colleague began the debate and I think the Speaker had

:24:42. > :24:47.intervened four times to keep him on course, so the SDLP were not the

:24:47. > :24:53.only ones that have veered off course. There is an opportunity, of

:24:53. > :24:56.course, strictly speaking, members should idea to the motion, but

:24:56. > :25:01.people fear of it and take an opportunity to make a point, and

:25:01. > :25:08.some colleagues to put those opportunities today. Two UN Maj Gen

:25:08. > :25:11.it is hard to pre-empt the outcome of the report? -- do you imagine.

:25:11. > :25:19.Maybe next year we will not have these days would seem like the Ray

:25:19. > :25:23.Stubbs time. -- a waste of time. will take more than a year,

:25:23. > :25:30.probably several years. It is a process that is pretty complicated.

:25:30. > :25:34.It will take some time to unravel it and to reconstitute it in a more

:25:34. > :25:39.streamlined fashion. Some of the other issues we have spoken about

:25:39. > :25:43.here, and it is part to be a problem as you have put it tonight,

:25:43. > :25:47.that is the perception perhaps of the Assembly that it is not very

:25:47. > :25:53.welcoming to be both from your community. Absolutely. We have seen

:25:54. > :25:57.no moves by the Assembly to address issues experienced by our community

:25:57. > :26:01.across Northern Ireland. The big opportunity is the sexual

:26:01. > :26:05.orientation strategy and we have high expectations and to make the

:26:05. > :26:09.Assembly members aware that they can expect the same response that

:26:09. > :26:12.they cost from the community to the CSI documents to the sexual

:26:12. > :26:17.orientation strategy if it does not meet with the needs of our

:26:17. > :26:24.community. A wider we appear to be a step behind the rest of the UK

:26:24. > :26:30.and the Republic in issues regarding gay people? There is

:26:30. > :26:35.probably our reticence on behalf of some issues to deal with the issues

:26:35. > :26:38.that need to be dealt with. That is not the case from the point of view

:26:38. > :26:44.with the SDLP, but I think it is the case from the point of view of

:26:44. > :26:50.some other party is. And think as John has said, the community has

:26:50. > :26:55.been waiting long enough to see their rights recognised. And

:26:55. > :27:05.enshrined in legislation. I think it is time that this has happened.

:27:05. > :27:06.

:27:06. > :27:16.Many of our MLAs have hidden talents, and some of them keep well

:27:16. > :27:21.

:27:21. > :27:30.hidden. Hot weather, one MLA has been showing us his boxing skills.

:27:30. > :27:34.Earlier, he explained how he prepared for the fight. I had a

:27:34. > :27:41.cold for a few weeks and wasn't able to train as much as I wanted

:27:41. > :27:50.to. However, I have done as much as I could. Running, watching the Dr

:27:50. > :27:56.Hockey films with my son and that is about it. And you were not first

:27:56. > :28:02.out, were you? I wasn't. There were 12 fights will together. De it make

:28:02. > :28:08.it worse watching everybody else? The first fight was a bit rougher

:28:08. > :28:17.than I expected. Then it got more civilised. I pipping, what have I

:28:17. > :28:23.let myself in for? Tell me about your opponent. He is roughly the

:28:23. > :28:30.same age as me. I would have worked with him in the past. He is a nice

:28:30. > :28:36.enough bloke. But not any more? don't think he's a nice looking

:28:36. > :28:42.bloke, but he is a nice bloke. He is a good sport. Have many bounced

:28:42. > :28:52.did it take for you to beat him? Each fight was only three rounds

:28:52. > :28:56.