:00:29. > :00:34.Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up in the next 30 minutes:
:00:34. > :00:38.Parading in is back at the top of the political agenda MLAs discussed
:00:38. > :00:44.how to resolve the issue of contentious marches. Never mind
:00:44. > :00:49.hugging a hoodie, what about hugging a lawyer? Deputy Speaker I
:00:49. > :00:53.fear he will make me hug a lawyer. Is the Ulster Covenant the birth
:00:53. > :01:01.certificate of Northern Ireland? The historiam Jonathan Bardon gives
:01:02. > :01:06.us his verdict. Parading was a hot topic for politicians today.
:01:06. > :01:09.Outside the Chamber, earlier in the day, parties met the Parades'
:01:09. > :01:13.Commission to voice concerns over an Ulster Covenant march next week.
:01:13. > :01:17.Inside the Chamber, parading was the subject of a motion brought to
:01:17. > :01:21.the floor by Sinn Fein. It called on the loyal orders to become
:01:21. > :01:25.involved in direct dialogue with residents' groups. In the handful
:01:25. > :01:31.of contentious parades, there are only a handful, that the cost last
:01:31. > :01:35.year was over �6 million. That's �6 million could be used in other
:01:35. > :01:41.policing issues and with community safety right across all of our
:01:41. > :01:47.community. The bigger cost of them was that they are toxic to policing.
:01:47. > :01:51.It's hard to quantify it, but I would say that you could gauge that
:01:51. > :01:55.policing has been slowed up five, six, seven years because of these
:01:56. > :02:00.parades and the image that they give. I've heard, over the last few
:02:00. > :02:04.days, a number of other loyalists and unionists and others talking
:02:04. > :02:09.about mutual respect. Who can disagree with that term, of course
:02:09. > :02:12.there has to be mutual respect. Surely, mutual respect comes from
:02:13. > :02:18.mutual conversation and from that dialogue, direct dialogue, between
:02:18. > :02:24.two people or two groups. Is it too much to ask for that the loil
:02:24. > :02:29.orders get involved in that? There are, I understand, very deliberate
:02:29. > :02:35.attempts ongoing behind-the-scenes to ensure that we will have a
:02:35. > :02:40.positive resolution to this entire process and situation. I welcome
:02:40. > :02:43.that. I, along with my party leader and other colleaguesed in the
:02:43. > :02:47.Ulster Unionist Party, met with the four main church leaders recently.
:02:47. > :02:53.Again, a positive meeting. Something that can be built on. I
:02:53. > :02:58.do stress and reiterate, Mr Speaker, that this cannot all be from the
:02:58. > :03:02.one side. Our society relies on an upholding of the rule of law. Where
:03:02. > :03:07.it is broken the consequences of violence are clear for everyone to
:03:07. > :03:14.see. We need people to demonstrate mature leadership and dialogue with
:03:14. > :03:17.others if possible. I would call on all leaders to defuse tension
:03:17. > :03:24.rather than to fan the flames of frustration and hate at this
:03:24. > :03:27.difficult time. You see, I don't get it. I don't comprehend why the
:03:27. > :03:33.movement of Orange feet along public roads doesn't incur the
:03:33. > :03:40.wrath, the hatred of people, primarily concerned with a minimal
:03:40. > :03:46.disruption for as little as 10 minutes, which turns into an all-
:03:46. > :03:50.day affair. Contrived by a bunch of law Breakers, provoking violence,
:03:50. > :03:58.directing hatred and displaying intoleration, which is etched on
:03:58. > :04:06.their faces. If we go to Dunloy and the issue of parading. For 11 years,
:04:06. > :04:11.no parade. No parade to allow the loyal, lodge in Dunloy, made up of
:04:11. > :04:16.18, 19 people, most of them senior citizens, led by an all Ireland
:04:16. > :04:19.Championship band, nothing that can in anyway be described as
:04:19. > :04:25.distasteful. Nothing that anyway can be described as in anyway
:04:25. > :04:28.offensive. No way could be aligned to any illegal organisation. What
:04:28. > :04:33.have republicans done in the village, they have under the
:04:33. > :04:36.leadership of Sinn Fein said, no parade. Unfortunate, because of the
:04:36. > :04:40.failure of the two big parties in dealing with community division and
:04:40. > :04:47.their efforts in Stokeing up sectarian tension, particularly
:04:47. > :04:49.around election time, plays to the gallery. We only - I listened to
:04:49. > :04:53.radio interviews where I heard so- called community activists saying
:04:53. > :04:58.they wanted more money. That the violence was around. There was not
:04:58. > :05:03.enough funding in some of these areas. That was a failure of their
:05:03. > :05:07.political representatives to deliver for their own constituency.
:05:07. > :05:12.Dolores Kelly of the SDLP. That Sinn Fein motion calling for
:05:12. > :05:18.dialogue between residents and loyal orders was rejected by MLAs.
:05:18. > :05:23.They voted for an Ulster unionist admendment which praised the loyal
:05:23. > :05:27.orders and call on all those in positions of leadership to ensure a
:05:27. > :05:29.positive outcome from future parades. From the Prison Service
:05:30. > :05:35.redundancy scheme to the implementation of fully body
:05:35. > :05:41.scanners in prisons, some of the issues raised in questions to the
:05:41. > :05:47.Justice Minister, David Forde. had to answer this question
:05:47. > :05:49.re'lawyer friendly' questions from Alban Maginness. I think an
:05:50. > :05:59.alternative dispute resolution system here would be exceptionally
:06:00. > :06:02.
:06:02. > :06:07.helpful. Has the minister any plans to extend training in alternative
:06:07. > :06:11.resolution to lawyers? I fear he will make me hug a lawyer, which
:06:11. > :06:16.could be bad news. The reality of course is that the training of
:06:16. > :06:19.lawyers is not my responsibility. There is training done within the
:06:19. > :06:23.two professions, the two branches of the profession and at
:06:23. > :06:28.institutions of higher education. I certainly think it is the case,
:06:28. > :06:32.indeed I have been discussing, just last week, with representatives of
:06:32. > :06:38.barristers, the issue in many cases alternative dispute resolution may
:06:38. > :06:43.benefit with the input of those with a legal background. There is
:06:43. > :06:46.clearly scope for his professional colleagues to engage in ADR. I
:06:46. > :06:50.trust many of them will take the training courses vain to them.
:06:50. > :06:55.would ask the Minister if he supports the introduction of
:06:55. > :06:59.tougher sentences for those who attack the elderly. If so, what
:06:59. > :07:03.plans has he put in place to do just that? The several answer is, I
:07:03. > :07:08.support the use of appropriate sentences to deal with all crimes
:07:08. > :07:11.whatever range they come from and to recognise the reality of the
:07:11. > :07:18.limited amount of crime which is directed against older people, but
:07:18. > :07:21.the seriousness of that which does occur. A total of 544 members of
:07:21. > :07:25.staff applied for the voluntary early retirement scheme. 159 staff
:07:25. > :07:28.have been released to date. A further 139 had been told they
:07:28. > :07:38.would be allowed to leave when it is operationally possible for them
:07:38. > :07:42.to do so. All other applications remain under consideration. As the
:07:42. > :07:46.Minister outlined the redundancy was popular and oversubscribed. 139
:07:46. > :07:51.members of staff wish to grks but haven't been able to go.
:07:51. > :07:56.Operational considerations are at the forefront. Would the Minister
:07:56. > :08:04.appreciate that the inability of those people being able to leave is
:08:04. > :08:08.having an affect on their morale. appreciate there are moral concerns
:08:08. > :08:14.among those who wish to leave. He should bear in mind the specific
:08:14. > :08:18.issue, if we were to give people advance notice that we would lose
:08:18. > :08:22.the compensation in lieu of notice, whilst it is unfortunate we cannot
:08:22. > :08:26.give people the full details we cannot to ensure they get the
:08:26. > :08:34.maximum benefit. As I announced I made a commitment that the Prison
:08:34. > :08:40.Service would pilot and evaluate the use of two types of full body
:08:40. > :08:45.imaging scanners. Prison Service officials have 2mm wave scanners,
:08:45. > :08:48.the first was delivered and installed yesterday. Following the
:08:48. > :08:54.delivery of staff training it is anticipated that this pilot will
:08:54. > :09:01.commence on 26th September. A second scan frer a different
:09:01. > :09:06.supplier is due to be delivered next month and a similar pilot will
:09:06. > :09:14.commence then. When does he believe that the pilot will be finished? If
:09:14. > :09:20.successful, when can we imagine the scanners will be placed in the
:09:20. > :09:26.prison? There are two different parts to what he asked. The simple
:09:26. > :09:30.question is the duration of the pilot. It is admendment that both
:09:30. > :09:36.of those will last for three months. They will involve the existing
:09:36. > :09:40.practice of full body searching alongside the use of the millimetre
:09:40. > :09:45.wave scanner to see whether the scanner is as effective as the
:09:45. > :09:52.existing practices in ensuring the security of prisoners and prison
:09:52. > :09:56.staff. If they are successful it will be planned to put those, that
:09:56. > :10:01.technology into use in the two prisons at the earliest possible
:10:01. > :10:06.point. There are serious issues as to whether it is possible to have
:10:06. > :10:11.adequate protection in what is a category A prison with some of the
:10:11. > :10:14.most dangerous prisoners in Northern Ireland in custody.
:10:14. > :10:18.Whether the technology which we are planning for the other two prisons
:10:18. > :10:21.is adequate will be a key question which would have to be addressed if
:10:21. > :10:26.millimetre wave was seen to be effective at the other two
:10:26. > :10:31.institutions. That is why we are seeking the justification,
:10:31. > :10:36.authorisation for the use of transmission x-rays for there,
:10:36. > :10:39.because that is seen as a more robust of searching technology that
:10:39. > :10:44.what is being implemented at the moment in the two pilots. Clearly,
:10:44. > :10:46.as I said, there has yet been no approval for any use in any UK
:10:46. > :10:51.prison. Therefore, there is significant issues we need it
:10:51. > :10:55.address to ensure that we do make sure that we can get the
:10:55. > :11:00.appropriate technology fully approved. Installing double glazing
:11:00. > :11:04.in social housing was one of the topics which came up during
:11:04. > :11:09.questions to the Social Development Minister, McCausland. He was asked
:11:09. > :11:12.why tenants having their windows replace ready being refused
:11:12. > :11:18.redecoration grants. The new specification for replacement
:11:18. > :11:22.double glazing windows, in line with the glass and glazing
:11:22. > :11:25.federation recommendations allows window replacements from the
:11:25. > :11:30.outside rather than the inside of the dwelling. As has been the
:11:30. > :11:34.housing executive practice. Existing windows can be removed and
:11:34. > :11:38.new windows fitted with minimal damage. This reduces the need for
:11:38. > :11:43.redecoration grants to be paid. refusal of redecoration grants has
:11:43. > :11:47.put pressure on residents, many people find that in, after the work
:11:47. > :11:50.is completed the blinds don't fit. Is there any provision being made
:11:50. > :11:58.to revise the decision to refuse the grants or help those who have
:11:58. > :12:02.been adversely affected by this? Well, to make it clear. What I said
:12:02. > :12:07.was, that there should not normally be a need for a redecoration grant
:12:07. > :12:11.because there will be no damage to the inner reveal. I don't know
:12:11. > :12:16.about the member who posed the question. I had windows fitted in
:12:16. > :12:21.my own home, fitted from the outside. As is the normal practice
:12:21. > :12:26.right across the glazing sector. In that case, the windows, there was
:12:26. > :12:30.no need for internal work to be done. Can the Minister detail the
:12:30. > :12:40.level of consultation which is undertaken by the housing executive
:12:40. > :12:47.in relation to their tenants before the type of work is undertaken?
:12:47. > :12:53.have to say, Mr Speaker, I'm not clear what that question means.
:12:53. > :12:56.When a window's replacement scheme is brought forward, usually, people
:12:56. > :13:01.are actually clambering to have it done rather than to have it delayed.
:13:01. > :13:05.I have never come across people yet who turn down new double glazing.
:13:05. > :13:08.When I came into the Department one of the things I was appalled by was
:13:08. > :13:12.the fact it was willing to be a piece of work that would require
:13:12. > :13:16.ten week for the housing executive to complete. That is why we set the
:13:16. > :13:19.target to have the work completed within the life term of this
:13:19. > :13:24.Assembly. The Minister has just told the House that there is no
:13:24. > :13:29.need really for a redecoration grant for replacement windows.
:13:29. > :13:31.Given the recent experience with Red Sky and others can the Minister
:13:31. > :13:40.ensure the house that when contractors are not up to the
:13:40. > :13:43.standard that he tells us that I welcome the question because it
:13:43. > :13:47.gets to the heart of something else I am concerned about. We need to be
:13:47. > :13:51.sure that the people fitting windows are good at it. We need to
:13:51. > :13:58.make sure it is done in a professional way. I'm sure a -- I
:13:58. > :14:03.have seen a number of contractors' work. Not just one, a number. The
:14:03. > :14:06.standard fitting windows left a great deal to be desired. In my own
:14:06. > :14:12.constituency, there was one particular case where you could put
:14:12. > :14:19.your hand below the window, it was so badly fitted, and that is simply
:14:19. > :14:23.unacceptable. Therefore, that is why we are looking at a proposal to
:14:23. > :14:26.have a separate tethering -- tendering process for that
:14:26. > :14:29.particular work so that you actually have people who have the
:14:29. > :14:33.specialist skills to fit windows rather than people who may be
:14:33. > :14:37.general trade men but do not have that skill. I think that additional
:14:37. > :14:42.decision that we have made and the Executive have made is the right
:14:42. > :14:45.decision and I look forward to seeing the results.
:14:45. > :14:50.The Social Development Minister sounding a little bit like a double
:14:50. > :14:54.glazing salesmen. An historic and significant event, that is how some
:14:54. > :14:57.MLAs described the signing of the Ulster covenant as the anniversary
:14:57. > :15:04.was discussed in a unionist motion today. The signing of the covenant
:15:04. > :15:08.to place not only enough Ulster -- in Ulster but in Dublin, on ships,
:15:08. > :15:15.in high seas, and at the stokers mess of a Royal Navy ship halfway
:15:16. > :15:20.up the river somewhere in China. To deny the importance of these events,
:15:20. > :15:23.whether you agree with them or not, would be churlish. They are
:15:23. > :15:33.important. They were fundamentally important. They were important to
:15:33. > :15:34.
:15:34. > :15:41.my family then and in many ways they affect vast numbers of people,
:15:41. > :15:48.not for fully but emotionally. -- not a thought fully. We approach
:15:48. > :15:52.the centenaries hopefully, having learnt the lessons of the past.
:15:52. > :15:58.Ireland was not all Protestant and Unionist or Catholic and
:15:58. > :16:05.nationalist. The motion itself is interesting insofar as it talks
:16:05. > :16:08.about the Assembly recognising the covenant being signed as important
:16:08. > :16:12.in the history of Northern Ireland but there was no Northern Ireland
:16:12. > :16:16.entity at the time. So in a way, the motion is flawed. Not
:16:16. > :16:22.withstanding that, our perspective on these things is that we have
:16:22. > :16:26.discussed this before or, and we are in a decade of centenaries and
:16:26. > :16:30.we believe that that is important. Rather than having these events
:16:30. > :16:35.commemorated in a way which would be exclusive, and that is not to
:16:35. > :16:38.say that we want people to be told how they should celebrate or
:16:38. > :16:44.commemorate historical events, but what we are suggesting is that in
:16:44. > :16:47.order to make this a more fruitful decade, and a decade which helps on
:16:47. > :16:53.the pathway towards reconciliation and a greater understanding among
:16:53. > :16:57.our communities here, that we would a Nideffer to make sure such events
:16:57. > :17:05.there are -- such events are commemorated in an clues of way,
:17:06. > :17:09.and not in a way about re-running history. -- in an inclusive way.
:17:09. > :17:19.understand it is important to the Unionist community and we respect
:17:19. > :17:19.
:17:19. > :17:23.it. Unionists must accept that the cause of Irish National at... It
:17:23. > :17:27.has caused an unnatural and damaging division of Ireland's
:17:27. > :17:31.people. Unionism does not have to agree with this fact. But they
:17:31. > :17:36.should try and understand. I can appreciate that not everyone in
:17:37. > :17:40.this House will see the Ulster covenant in a positive way, in as
:17:40. > :17:44.positive a way as I would look to celebrate it but I think we all
:17:44. > :17:48.acknowledge the legacy of the Ulster Covenant, that it is one
:17:48. > :17:52.which has been lasting and one which I expect none of us would be
:17:52. > :17:58.sitting in this House without. There is a lot to be learned from
:17:58. > :18:02.this. George Mitchell once said that in America people knew too
:18:02. > :18:07.little about their history and in Northern Ireland, they knew too
:18:07. > :18:10.much. I think that is wrong. There is a level of ignorance in this
:18:10. > :18:15.country and I think it is important that we -- it is important that we
:18:15. > :18:21.use this opportunity to educate people. John von Baden joins us to
:18:21. > :18:25.answer that question. -- Jonathan Bardon. Did George Mitchell have a
:18:25. > :18:30.point? I disagree with them. The more we know the better we
:18:30. > :18:35.understand each other. For many people, there is a lot of fiction
:18:35. > :18:39.mixed up with the facts about the covenant. Have you found that?
:18:39. > :18:46.used to think myself that more women signed than men. In fact we
:18:46. > :18:50.now know that more men signed than women. Many people think that the
:18:50. > :18:55.covenant was where people pledged themselves to prevent the
:18:55. > :18:58.introduction of home rule to Ulster. In fact, on 20th September 1912,
:18:58. > :19:05.they were pledging themselves to resist the introduction of home
:19:05. > :19:08.rule to the whole island of Ireland. People forget that the notion of
:19:08. > :19:12.Northern Ireland did not exist as an entity at that time. People make
:19:12. > :19:17.that fundamental mistake all the time. It is a fundamental mistake.
:19:17. > :19:20.Eventually, quietly, the Ulster Unionist Council decided in
:19:20. > :19:25.December 1912 that they would just tried to stop home rule for the
:19:25. > :19:30.nine counties of Ulster. After the 1916 rising, they reduce that again
:19:30. > :19:34.to just six Counties. Huge number of people -- huge numbers of people
:19:34. > :19:39.signed, slightly more men than women but pretty close. In all,
:19:39. > :19:46.almost 500,000 people. It was an extraordinary number of people. It
:19:46. > :19:53.shows you the determination of the Protestant majority in the north-
:19:53. > :19:56.east to resist Home Rule, because they feared that nationalists would
:19:56. > :20:02.not be satisfied with home rule and that they would want complete
:20:02. > :20:10.independence eventually. Was it exclusively Protestant? I think it
:20:10. > :20:14.pretty well was exclusively Protestant. I would think that... I
:20:14. > :20:19.don't think a Catholic has been found that has signed it. What, for
:20:19. > :20:22.you, is the significance of it? Some people have described it as
:20:22. > :20:27.the birth certificate of Northern Ireland. Would you go that far?
:20:27. > :20:31.would. Are regarded as the founding document for Northern Ireland
:20:31. > :20:34.because it made it plain to the British Government, whether it be
:20:34. > :20:41.liberal or conservative, but it was going to have to make a separate
:20:41. > :20:44.arrangement for the north-east of violent. It succeeded in doing that
:20:44. > :20:50.even though the original intention was to stop home rule for the whole
:20:50. > :20:55.island. Carson himself was not in favour of Partition because he was
:20:55. > :20:59.a sudden unionist. What are your thoughts in the way it is
:20:59. > :21:04.commemorated 100 years on? Because that is a political hot potato.
:21:04. > :21:10.cannot be ignored. It is too important an event in our past. It
:21:10. > :21:14.helped to shape our present. It has to be marked. I must say, members
:21:14. > :21:22.of the Assembly have shown a good deal of maturity in discussing this.
:21:22. > :21:27.The problem would be outside the Assembly when passions get aroused
:21:27. > :21:32.greatly. There is the danger of corruption. How it is commemorated
:21:32. > :21:37.now, 100 years on, will set the tone for other commemorations.
:21:37. > :21:40.There is a decade of centenaries coming up. The most contentious
:21:40. > :21:46.after the covenant would be the Easter rising of 1916, but there
:21:46. > :21:50.are many others. Including the Government of Ireland Act of 1920
:21:50. > :21:54.which created Northern Ireland. you think nationalists need to
:21:54. > :21:58.think about how they commemorated the covenant and Unionists need to
:21:58. > :22:02.think about things like the Government of Ireland Act and what
:22:02. > :22:10.happened in 1916? I think soft, because if you're going to have a
:22:10. > :22:15.shared future, it means that you look sympathetically at the views
:22:15. > :22:19.of people on the other side, and find out more about what actually
:22:19. > :22:24.happened. The it would be interesting to see how it is marked,
:22:24. > :22:29.100 years on. Thank you very much for coming in to join us tonight.
:22:29. > :22:32.Access to credit for smaller medium-size businesses was on the
:22:32. > :22:37.Finance Minister's mind this morning. Sammy Nelson -- Sammy
:22:37. > :22:43.Wilson said he was worried that the Treasury's moves are not having
:22:43. > :22:50.significant impact here in Northern Ireland. By an concerned at our
:22:50. > :22:53.members of all parties in the Assembly -- I am concerned about
:22:53. > :23:00.how at the availability of credit can be restricting our economic
:23:00. > :23:03.recovery. It is an issue that has been ongoing and one where I am
:23:03. > :23:11.increasingly frustrated at the lack of attention to regional banking
:23:11. > :23:15.issues. And the specific challenges that we face here. Bank lending to
:23:15. > :23:18.SMA is a national issue and in response, the Government has
:23:19. > :23:26.introduced a number of initiatives designed to improve lending and
:23:26. > :23:31.liquidity. -- SMAs. It is hoped that that will internet improve the
:23:31. > :23:34.ability to get finance and reduce the cost of credit. As banking is a
:23:34. > :23:38.reserved matter and is the Government's responsibility to
:23:38. > :23:44.ensure that such initiatives and schemes are equally effective in
:23:44. > :23:49.all parts of the UK. They have not done this. I do not believe that
:23:49. > :23:52.their schemes have been effective here. This is because the structure
:23:52. > :23:57.of local banking sector is fundamentally different from the
:23:57. > :24:02.rest of the UK. The key structural difference is the extent of foreign
:24:02. > :24:07.ownership, whereby local banks are subject to the decisions of parent
:24:07. > :24:10.bank's base outside of the United Kingdom. Just last week, the
:24:10. > :24:13.Business Secretary, Vince Cable announced that the Government are
:24:13. > :24:17.working on setting up a new government-backed institution to
:24:17. > :24:20.help companies invest. We have taken this up with the Treasury to
:24:20. > :24:24.ask for details and have been told that the Chancellor and the
:24:24. > :24:28.Business Secretary are developing options for creating a business
:24:28. > :24:34.bank in the UK. An institution of this nature would address long-
:24:34. > :24:38.standing gaps in finance for SMAs bike and boating moat -- promoting
:24:38. > :24:41.competitive and diverse finance markets and joining together the
:24:41. > :24:45.Government's existing finance initiatives under one roof. They
:24:45. > :24:50.see this as complementing what the Government is doing on supporting
:24:50. > :24:54.private sector lending through the funding for lending scheme. I am
:24:54. > :24:57.told that the Government will set out the details later this autumn.
:24:57. > :25:00.It is very interesting, this development, and I will be pressing
:25:00. > :25:06.to ensure that it is open to and will benefit Northern Ireland
:25:06. > :25:10.businesses. Sammy Wilson. The pressure group Amnesty
:25:10. > :25:14.International have been giving evidence to an all-party group of
:25:14. > :25:18.MLAs on the issue of prostitution. Lord Morrow is hoping to out low --
:25:18. > :25:25.outlaw the practice of paying for sexual services from a prostitute
:25:25. > :25:29.but critics say that this could see resources taken away from the
:25:29. > :25:34.problem. Joining me is a representative from Amnesty. What
:25:34. > :25:38.are your concerns? Firstly, it is important to see this bill in its
:25:38. > :25:42.full context. What is good is that it provides us with an opportunity
:25:42. > :25:45.to debate how Northern Ireland is fulfilling its obligations as
:25:45. > :25:50.outlined in the EU directive and the Council of Europe convention.
:25:50. > :25:53.It serves to have a debate around that, which is useful. I also think
:25:53. > :25:56.the protective sieve gives -- protections against two victims
:25:56. > :26:01.that are contained within the bill are also useful. It is important to
:26:01. > :26:05.stress that there are elements that we welcome. What we think is not
:26:05. > :26:09.useful is caused four, which looks to outlaw the paying for sexual
:26:09. > :26:17.services of a prostitute. From our perspective, it conflates separate
:26:17. > :26:21.issues. It has the potential to divert resources away from the
:26:21. > :26:26.victims of trafficking and bringing traffickers to justice. UCD issues
:26:26. > :26:31.as separate, prostitution and human trafficking. Lord Morrow says that
:26:31. > :26:35.he is taking an overview of the situation. -- you see the issues.
:26:35. > :26:40.People involved are by definition themselves, victims in most
:26:40. > :26:43.circumstances. That is debatable. There is a difference to treat a
:26:43. > :26:47.woman who willingly sells sex and a victim of trafficking who has been
:26:47. > :26:53.transported from country to country against their will. But a lot of
:26:53. > :26:58.prostitutes are also victims. Absolutely. The debate needs to
:26:58. > :27:02.stay on victims and making sure that their rights are protected. We
:27:02. > :27:10.need to have refocused strategy to make sure that Northern Ireland is
:27:10. > :27:13.a hostile place for traffickers. They may be related but they are
:27:13. > :27:18.essentially two separate issues. Those supporting the legislation
:27:18. > :27:24.say that outlawing prostitution will lead to a drop in demand.
:27:24. > :27:27.Surely that will lead to the benefit of everyone involved.
:27:27. > :27:30.Bill is based on the Swedish model and there is conflicting evidence
:27:30. > :27:35.as to whether that has been successful. Other research points
:27:35. > :27:38.that yes, this has halved the amount of prostitution but for
:27:38. > :27:44.every point of research that shows that the Swedish model has worked,
:27:44. > :27:48.there is evidence that has pointed to it not working. That has driven
:27:48. > :27:52.the problem underground. There is no one-size-fits-all approach to
:27:52. > :27:55.human trafficking. In Northern Ireland, we have things like Beye
:27:55. > :27:59.porous border, and we have issues which need to consider like that.
:27:59. > :28:03.It is important we stay focused on the context. You mention the
:28:03. > :28:06.Swedish example. Lord Morrow was also in step with legislators to
:28:07. > :28:11.want to see changes in the law in Scotland and the Republic and in
:28:11. > :28:15.Westminster. In the Republic, I think it is very much in the
:28:15. > :28:18.infancy there. I think they are very much at the same point that we
:28:18. > :28:28.are at. The Scottish police have raised this point as well in terms
:28:28. > :28:33.of resources being diverted and how they possibly police that. We make
:28:33. > :28:36.that argument are sore -- also. The PSNI, their resources for example
:28:36. > :28:41.are diverted away from trafficking and into arresting men who pay for
:28:41. > :28:45.sexual services of a prostitute. will leave it there. Thank you very