:00:33. > :00:39.Welcome to the programme. Coming up: The retention of DNA and
:00:39. > :00:46.fingerprints. I think that totally and absolutely undermines the
:00:46. > :00:54.principle of innocence -- innocence. We were here from representatives
:00:54. > :00:59.of the allied party and Sinn Fein. We made a plea that we watch our
:00:59. > :01:03.language, and any starts to call some people clowns. I don't think
:01:03. > :01:09.it is helpful at all to refer to people as clowns. Why sorry is the
:01:09. > :01:14.hardest word. This whole time for members, they come through my
:01:14. > :01:24.office door and apologies -- apologise. I would take confessions
:01:24. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :01:30.The Criminal Justice Bill reached another stage of its passage
:01:30. > :01:37.through the House this afternoon, dealing with human trafficking and
:01:37. > :01:41.sex offenders. It also seeks to clarify the law over the DNA and
:01:41. > :01:48.fingerprinting. This issue prompted the most debate in the chamber.
:01:48. > :01:52.There is a provision within the bill as tabled for the definite
:01:52. > :02:00.retention of DNA and fingerprints where a person is charged as a
:02:00. > :02:10.result of an arrest. A person who is not subject to a prosecution,
:02:10. > :02:10.
:02:10. > :02:16.and note... That totally undermines the principle of innocence. We had
:02:16. > :02:21.a discussion early on about the role of this assembly. The role of
:02:21. > :02:27.this assembly is to protect citizens. The role of the assembly
:02:27. > :02:32.is to protect citizens against those criminals who are torching
:02:32. > :02:37.their local community. The problem he has to face is that there are
:02:37. > :02:41.many, many examples of the technology we now have, or -- of
:02:41. > :02:49.people who have committed the most violent crimes who have been
:02:49. > :02:57.detected, charged and a pruners -- imprisoned on the basis of DNA
:02:57. > :03:02.profiling. The police made it very clear that the retention of his
:03:02. > :03:12.mature was absolutely essential in order to pursue those criminals.
:03:12. > :03:13.
:03:13. > :03:20.DNA was taken in 2001. I could have gone to the police and destroyed it,
:03:20. > :03:28.but I have nothing to fear. Is he going to deny the PSNI the right to
:03:28. > :03:35.have access to remote Montana RG2 depend criminals? This could solve
:03:35. > :03:40.a horrible crime. First of all, you should not presume that everything
:03:40. > :03:46.-- everyone who is arrested is a criminal. When they are asked about
:03:46. > :03:54.the statistics, when they asked about the many cases because of the
:03:54. > :03:58.retention, they weren't very for -- forthcoming. What the majority of
:03:58. > :04:02.the public wants is to ensure that we are not soft on crime, and not
:04:02. > :04:08.soft on criminals. What I am concerned about is that some on the
:04:08. > :04:11.opposing benches here want to give every possible opportunity for
:04:11. > :04:17.criminals to evade the law, and that is the reason for some of
:04:17. > :04:23.these amendments. I listen to Mr McCartney earlier, who said that
:04:23. > :04:26.DNA was postal -- personal property. Of course it is, but if it can be
:04:26. > :04:34.used to the benefit of the public and the law, then it should be your
:04:34. > :04:39.used. We believe the courts are best suited and best place to deal
:04:39. > :04:48.with any issues that arise. The biometric commissioner, all well
:04:48. > :04:54.and good, the people who have the experience and authority, and I
:04:54. > :05:00.believe and my party believes that they should be the adjudicator if
:05:00. > :05:07.necessary. I agree with what you just said, it is important to
:05:07. > :05:17.support the law, and we, as the party, are anxious to support the
:05:17. > :05:18.
:05:18. > :05:27.law. But the law is not just simply a matter of procedure, the law also
:05:27. > :05:33.includes concerns about citizens'' right. The amendments proposed
:05:33. > :05:39.about the biometric Commissioner. They had no difficulty with the
:05:39. > :05:43.position. It makes the point that they cannot go into the Kora meant
:05:43. > :05:53.every single time that there is dispute of this nature and --
:05:53. > :05:55.
:05:55. > :06:00.Of course, as a public authority, that would in -- indeed fall to
:06:01. > :06:06.them. That should make any reservations about non-compliance.
:06:06. > :06:11.In Northern Ireland, the database holds 5% of the population, and
:06:11. > :06:16.under the new framework, that will reliefs -- changed to 4%. In
:06:16. > :06:24.Scotland, it will be 6%, and in England and Wales, it is 8%. In the
:06:24. > :06:28.USA, 3.5 %, in France, 1.4 %. While there is no doubt that the database
:06:28. > :06:32.in the UK generally is something of three times the European average,
:06:32. > :06:38.they are proving 20 times more efficient. We have seen in recent
:06:38. > :06:46.years, the the database in Northern Ireland, and it is not the database
:06:46. > :06:55.that can be to people it is the -- it is the police. It has led to it
:06:55. > :06:59.the arrest of 700 people by the PSNI. The listening to that, we'd
:06:59. > :07:04.have Stewart Dickson and Raymond McCartney. You say you are a
:07:04. > :07:13.liberal. What you support the retention of DNA? I think it is
:07:13. > :07:19.important that the DNH is retained. It is an area of concern. This is
:07:19. > :07:25.retention from people who are not ultimately committed -- -- who have
:07:25. > :07:32.not committed any crime. He highlighted in the statistics he
:07:32. > :07:36.gave to the house today that the pretension of that DNA least two
:07:36. > :07:42.important decisions being made. It will deliver convictions down the
:07:42. > :07:48.line. Isn't the danger that your party is opposing this and you'll
:07:48. > :07:57.be seen as being tough -- soft on crime? No, I don't think so.
:07:57. > :08:07.Throughout the proceedings, we let out our approach, and the basic
:08:07. > :08:08.
:08:08. > :08:13.principle is that the European Court of Human Rights is total, and
:08:13. > :08:16.the presumption of innocence. We will do everything we can to
:08:16. > :08:25.attempt -- protect this. That is what we have taken the position
:08:25. > :08:28.that we have. If you have nothing to hide, why worry about this?
:08:28. > :08:33.think the human rights commission address that. They may be example
:08:33. > :08:40.that DNA is private property. We may assume that there is nothing in
:08:40. > :08:46.our homes. Yet certain times, we do not have an open-door policy. We
:08:46. > :08:53.must not take the position that if you have nothing to hide, come
:08:53. > :08:57.forward with your DNA. If you say to someone after being arrested, or
:08:57. > :09:06.someone has faced court proceedings that they are innocent, they are
:09:06. > :09:10.holding on to your DNA, then you have what is called suspicion, or
:09:10. > :09:15.at nearly guilty. That is not necessarily going to be for ever.
:09:15. > :09:20.In circumstances it won't be, and I think that is a dressing some
:09:20. > :09:23.aspects of the human rights binding. But we feel that there are other
:09:23. > :09:31.aspects where it will be held indefinitely. We need to address
:09:31. > :09:41.that. Are you satisfied, Stewart Dixton, but this parts -- this past
:09:41. > :09:51.eight human rights test? -- Stewart Dickson? The case was critical of
:09:51. > :09:54.
:09:54. > :10:00.the country's that did not go through retention. What the human -
:10:00. > :10:07.but what the European Court said is that the Scottish government but it
:10:07. > :10:11.added a ruck by having a retention framework. They can apply for
:10:11. > :10:18.extensions. By which time, the sample is destroyed. This is not
:10:18. > :10:24.indefinite retention. That is why it is a human Court of European --
:10:24. > :10:33.European Court of Human Rights protected. Does not violent really
:10:33. > :10:36.need another commission? The person will be someone who will be public
:10:36. > :10:42.servant within a public organisation. It is vitally
:10:42. > :10:47.important that it is a commissioner rather than the courts, because it
:10:47. > :10:51.if you wish to appeal against the decision to hold a DNA sample, if
:10:51. > :10:58.you go to court, that is a public proceedings, and you may well be
:10:58. > :11:08.faced with a situation where it is reported. That you had your DNA
:11:08. > :11:12.sample destroyed. At some future case, that may skew public opinion
:11:12. > :11:22.against you as someone going to court. If he had but a right of
:11:22. > :11:29.appeal to a public myth dinner, done in private, and no public
:11:29. > :11:34.decision, you can go back to court. Widowed Hill there is a need for a
:11:34. > :11:43.commissioner, but as something that is a judicial process, we believe
:11:43. > :11:47.that the are bad -- best arbiters is that this to be contested. It
:11:47. > :11:50.could be a necessary piece of bureaucracy. We could be left open
:11:50. > :12:00.to the accusation that the commissioner is part of the
:12:00. > :12:09.
:12:09. > :12:11.Department, and there -- that make The Enterprise Minister has
:12:11. > :12:14.dismissed concerns that recent scenes of disorder could cause
:12:14. > :12:17.problems for the forthcoming World Police and Fire Games. Arlene
:12:17. > :12:20.Foster was asked whether trouble in North Belfast on Saturday could put
:12:20. > :12:25.off athletes coming here. First, though, she faced a question about
:12:25. > :12:31.a project backed by Tourism Ireland. Could the Minister confirm to the
:12:31. > :12:36.House that she does indeed support to the global Greening, which could
:12:36. > :12:40.see landmarks such as the pyramids in Egypt being turned green, and
:12:40. > :12:46.can she confirmed that the first and Deputy First Minister will be
:12:46. > :12:52.able to support the Rio de Janeiro initiative when they visit Brazil?
:12:52. > :12:59.I thanks a member for his question. It is tourism Ireland's initiative,
:12:59. > :13:03.and it has been going on for some considerable time. It has happened
:13:03. > :13:07.on the leaning Tower of Pisa, the Sydney Opera House, and they are
:13:07. > :13:13.looking for new and innovative ways to do this, so they will continue
:13:13. > :13:16.to look to that. What I'm interested in is how they're going
:13:16. > :13:22.to give stand out to Northern Ireland in respect of what they do
:13:22. > :13:25.across the world, particularly in relation to Belfast and the
:13:25. > :13:30.difficulties that have been on going, how they're going to address
:13:31. > :13:35.those issues. I would like referred to the activities of last weekend
:13:35. > :13:40.where there were disgraceful scenes and a football match had to be
:13:40. > :13:46.cancelled by the activities of some clams on the street. Could the
:13:46. > :13:49.Minister ask what answer the question about the potential for
:13:50. > :13:55.the Police and Fire Games just around the corner? Surely those
:13:55. > :14:01.scenes that we have seen last weekend, is there any indication
:14:01. > :14:05.that the sports people that have coming here will still come? I say
:14:05. > :14:10.to the member that we made a plea that we watch our language, and
:14:10. > :14:16.then he gets up and start to call some people clowns. I don't think
:14:16. > :14:21.it is helpful to refer to be able as clowns. We had a successful
:14:21. > :14:25.lunch which row attended along with the mayor of Belfast. When we were
:14:25. > :14:29.talking about the accommodation figures and we passed the 2 million
:14:29. > :14:34.mark in relation to accommodation for the Royal Police and Fire Games,
:14:34. > :14:37.which are very much welcome, we had some people over her work
:14:37. > :14:40.competitors in the last World Police and Fire Games, and frankly
:14:40. > :14:44.they were having a good time right across Northern Ireland, they
:14:44. > :14:49.visited Fermanagh, they visited the north coast and were of course in
:14:49. > :14:52.Belfast as well. And they were singing the praises of this place
:14:52. > :14:57.as a destination. That is the sort of positive message we want to send
:14:57. > :15:01.out. We fully support the back in Belfast campaign, but given the
:15:01. > :15:07.fact that the Derry City Council have had a business case in for the
:15:08. > :15:12.last number of mums looking for some help and support with -- the
:15:12. > :15:15.last number of months looking for help and support with this, we need
:15:15. > :15:21.to try to make sure we have the biggest available budget for
:15:21. > :15:27.marketing that we can get for what is the biggest event in 2013.
:15:27. > :15:31.thanks a member for his question. He will know that it is not just
:15:31. > :15:36.about my department in all of this, and indeed we have been working
:15:36. > :15:40.very closely with both the City Council and the culture company in
:15:40. > :15:45.relation to the marketing and communications plans going forward.
:15:45. > :15:48.Under the new executive advertising guidelines, I have to obtain
:15:48. > :15:52.permission for any marketing and communications campaigns in
:15:52. > :15:57.Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and there is a proposal
:15:57. > :16:01.for a bespoke marketing campaign for the UK City of Culture, and
:16:01. > :16:04.that is currently being considered. I am hopeful a decision will be
:16:04. > :16:06.taken in the very near future. How much will the long-awaited
:16:07. > :16:10.Education Skills Authority cost the Education Department, and will it
:16:10. > :16:17.be the biggest quango in Europe? Just some of the issues facing the
:16:17. > :16:20.Education Minister John O'Dowd during question time earlier.
:16:20. > :16:24.projected annual budget for the Education Schools Authority will
:16:24. > :16:31.largely be the some of the Budget so the existing eight arm's-length
:16:31. > :16:37.bodies that will transfer. The Council for schools, the staff
:16:37. > :16:47.commission and the council. The budget in 2012 to 2013 of these
:16:47. > :16:52.
:16:52. > :16:58.eight bodies was a 1 billion -- �58 million capital. This function and
:16:58. > :17:02.some of operational duties currently carried out by the
:17:02. > :17:06.Department will also transfer, along with any associated resources.
:17:06. > :17:12.Work is currently on going to establish a level of funding, but
:17:12. > :17:20.at this stage, are high level of the Budget will be in something in
:17:21. > :17:26.the terms of 1.8 billion a resource and 1.2 billion capital. I thank
:17:26. > :17:30.the Minister for that response. This is meant to be about saving
:17:30. > :17:35.money and being more efficient, but it will effectively become the
:17:35. > :17:43.largest quango in Europe. Can the Minister detail when he will be
:17:43. > :17:52.bringing forward the detailed case for the Education Schools
:17:52. > :17:57.Authority? I don't accept his description, but I'm not absolutely
:17:57. > :18:00.clear as to what the opposition is based upon, and expected is more
:18:01. > :18:03.political than educational, and if that is so, there is a danger of
:18:03. > :18:07.potentially damaging the educational potential of our
:18:07. > :18:12.society, because I have yet to hear a rational argument as to why they
:18:12. > :18:19.are opposed. It will not be anywhere near the largest quango in
:18:19. > :18:29.Europe. In fact I would question their democratic -- their
:18:29. > :18:33.
:18:33. > :18:39.definition of a quango, when this is democratically accountable.
:18:40. > :18:43.Campbell. The minister previously outlined a number of administrative
:18:43. > :18:51.savings that are currently ongoing and had been ongoing in recent
:18:51. > :18:55.years. Does he envisage further savings and when the Education
:18:55. > :19:00.Schools Authority is established? Continued savings will be a matter
:19:00. > :19:05.for the board and in terms of what the educational budget looks like
:19:05. > :19:09.at that time, but it is expected that the establishment will
:19:09. > :19:15.initially saved around �25 million per year in terms of advice and
:19:15. > :19:20.support for schools, and secondly, the rationalisation of educational
:19:20. > :19:24.administration will have �50 million of savings. That will be
:19:24. > :19:28.made per year from the administration and management costs
:19:28. > :19:32.of these various bodies. The savings issue is important, but the
:19:32. > :19:38.main driver was to ensure that we had an educational body which could
:19:38. > :19:43.deliver a modern fit for purpose education service to the
:19:43. > :19:49.communities it serves. The education boards are outdated. That
:19:49. > :19:52.in no way undermines the good work carried out by its members. The
:19:52. > :19:58.function of the Education Schools Authority is to modernise the
:19:58. > :20:01.approach. Mr Speaker, I have listened carefully to the
:20:01. > :20:11.minister's replies so far, and I am sure the minister is aware that
:20:11. > :20:17.
:20:17. > :20:20.Chalobah was another publication on literacy and numeracy. Cannot the
:20:20. > :20:24.minister assure us that this organisation will put an end to the
:20:24. > :20:31.many millions -- thousands of children leaving school each year
:20:31. > :20:34.with no ability to read or write? The report actually said that there
:20:34. > :20:41.were children whose literacy and numeracy skills were not what they
:20:41. > :20:44.should be. It did not say they could not read or write. I notice
:20:44. > :20:50.today in the paper there is judgment upon us without even
:20:50. > :20:54.hearing the report of the Accounts Committee. I would like them to
:20:54. > :20:59.give the audit report a fair hearing. It does not tell us
:20:59. > :21:09.anything we don't already know. No member of this House should be
:21:09. > :21:12.
:21:12. > :21:17.surprised at the Fanny its findings. - match -- the finance findings. We
:21:17. > :21:22.have been saying all along that this needs to be fixed. The audit
:21:22. > :21:29.report highlights that we have policies in place that will fix it,
:21:29. > :21:36.but it will take time and further resources to fix it. The hearing in
:21:36. > :21:39.relation to the report shows that. The Education Minister John O'Dowd.
:21:39. > :21:41.Last week we heard how electronic scanners like those used in
:21:41. > :21:43.airports will not replace full-body searching in prisons in Northern
:21:43. > :21:46.Ireland. Prison staff appeared before the Justice Committee to
:21:46. > :21:49.explain the findings of a three- month pilot scheme. Sue McAllister,
:21:49. > :21:53.the director general of the prison service, said she was disappointed
:21:53. > :22:03.by the outcome of the pilot, as we can hear now in our weekly look at
:22:03. > :22:03.
:22:03. > :22:07.Regarding our evaluation of the millimetre wave Scanners, you will
:22:07. > :22:12.now be aware from your papers and reports in the media that the
:22:12. > :22:16.results of the pilot showed that in the prison environment, there were
:22:16. > :22:20.limitations to the technology, and that our current for surging
:22:20. > :22:26.processes provide a higher level of assurance by finding more of the
:22:26. > :22:29.test items than the scanning technology. A closed session will
:22:29. > :22:32.undoubtedly enable us to go into the evaluation in much more detail,
:22:32. > :22:38.but I think it is important to say at this stage that we are
:22:38. > :22:41.disappointed at the outcome of the pilot. It is our view that in order
:22:41. > :22:45.to preserve the security of the Establishment and the safety of
:22:45. > :22:53.prisoners, staff and the wider community, the requirement for full
:22:53. > :22:55.searching on entry to and exit from the prisons and in some other
:22:55. > :23:05.circumstances must remain until a satisfactory alternative can be
:23:05. > :23:06.
:23:06. > :23:11.found. What has been the reaction from Republicans? Why you are alert
:23:11. > :23:16.to what the reaction could be, to the fact that what they are
:23:16. > :23:19.demanding isn't going to happen? have been clear all along that this
:23:19. > :23:28.is a technological solution for the Prison Service and not about any
:23:28. > :23:31.specific group of prisoners. A pop at the -- the pilot has only just
:23:31. > :23:38.finished, and we have not shared the findings of anyone else before
:23:38. > :23:45.coming to brief you, because that would not have been appropriate. We
:23:45. > :23:55.have not shared the findings with any prisoners. Do you expect to
:23:55. > :23:56.
:23:56. > :23:59.reaction? We have been talking to the staff and assessors who going
:23:59. > :24:07.regularly to speak to prisoners, and we know there will be an
:24:07. > :24:13.interest. My view is that there is not a higher expectation amongst
:24:13. > :24:20.those prisoners that this will be necessarily suitable for our
:24:20. > :24:23.purposes. Set it remains to be seen what a reaction will be. We have a
:24:23. > :24:31.much less intrusive way of carrying out a full search than in other
:24:31. > :24:38.jurisdictions. In England and Wales, the prisoner can be required to
:24:38. > :24:42.lift his genitals, to squat and pull apart his buttocks, for
:24:42. > :24:47.example, if there is reason to believe items are concealed. There
:24:47. > :24:54.are things that are done that are clearly more intrusive and less
:24:54. > :25:04.pleasant for staff that we don't do. Why do we not do it? We have never
:25:04. > :25:14.done it to my knowledge, certainly not in recent times, and our view
:25:14. > :25:19.is that the benefits of doing it outweigh the risks and the
:25:19. > :25:26.implications for decency and dignity. Is there any legal
:25:26. > :25:32.barriers to doing it.? If you decided that you felt it was
:25:32. > :25:37.necessary, for example to deal with the drugs problem? I don't know the
:25:37. > :25:43.answer to that, but I do know that when I was head of the security
:25:44. > :25:49.group in England and Wales, we had to ascertain that it was legal for
:25:49. > :25:52.us to do what we did, so it is certainly legal in England and
:25:52. > :25:56.Wales to do the things that I have explained. What they don't know,
:25:56. > :26:03.because we have not asked that question, is whether we would
:26:03. > :26:08.legally be able to do it. But I certainly have no wish to explore
:26:08. > :26:11.that at this time, and don't think it operationally necessary. I think
:26:11. > :26:16.it is much more appropriate that we look at technological solutions
:26:16. > :26:26.than explore ways of increasing the intrusive nature and are full
:26:26. > :26:26.
:26:26. > :26:31.search. Well, Raymond McCartney and Stewart Dickson are still with me.
:26:31. > :26:41.Raymond McCartney, does this mean that the future is body searching?
:26:41. > :26:48.No. There was a focus at the committee on having a technological
:26:48. > :26:52.solution. We live in the 21st century. Everyone had different
:26:52. > :26:58.angles, but we all accept that the body search is intrusive. We have
:26:58. > :27:07.to ensure that the pilot scheme is not seen as a one-off. We need to
:27:07. > :27:10.look at how we can modify the scanner for the needs of the pilot.
:27:10. > :27:17.Is it embarrassing that the scheme hasn't come up with the result that
:27:17. > :27:21.many people wanted to see? I think people wanted to see the technology
:27:21. > :27:25.be more effective than it was. I think it is possible that some
:27:25. > :27:31.changes can be made. There is a further piece of equipment that is
:27:31. > :27:35.available, as well, but that requires UK wide permission,
:27:35. > :27:41.because it is an X-ray machine. And prisoners are right to have health
:27:41. > :27:47.and safety concerns about the use of this equipment. Peraza has have
:27:47. > :27:57.a right -- prisoners have a right to refuse to use this equipment if
:27:57. > :27:58.
:27:58. > :28:01.they choose to. Now, just before we go, the Speaker, Willie Hay, was
:28:01. > :28:04.not happy with some MLAs who were missing during yesterday's Question
:28:04. > :28:09.Time. But in the spirit of Lent, it seemed he was in a forgiving mood.
:28:09. > :28:12.I raised the issue yesterday of members not being in their place
:28:12. > :28:17.during question time, especially members who have been named on the
:28:17. > :28:23.paper for a question. I have had one member through my door who has
:28:23. > :28:27.apologised. Thus far, I had nobody else. We know the members who were
:28:27. > :28:31.not in their place yesterday, so there is still time for members to
:28:31. > :28:37.come to this house and apologise, through my office door and
:28:37. > :28:41.apologise. I will take confessions wherever they may be.