:00:25. > :00:31.Hello and welcome to Stormont today. Coming up in the next 30 minutes...
:00:32. > :00:40.MLAs tread over old ground, as they debate the flying of flags over
:00:41. > :00:48.council offices. We are in and around Belfast city Hall and all
:00:49. > :00:57.about these amendments. Are you concerned about your rates
:00:58. > :01:05.bill under a new council? I think it is important to protect and rate
:01:06. > :01:09.payers. MLAs seek to lessen the impact of any change.
:01:10. > :01:13.And I am joined by Steven McCaffery, for his take on a special sitting on
:01:14. > :01:17.the Hill. Day two of the debate on the Local
:01:18. > :01:20.government Bill and the most heated exchanges came late on, when MLAs
:01:21. > :01:23.discussed amendments relating to the flying of flags on council
:01:24. > :01:27.buildings. Four amendments were tabled - two from Alliance and two
:01:28. > :01:30.from the Ulster Unionists. Amendment 63, from Alliance, stated that the
:01:31. > :01:33.Union flag should be flown on designated days on all council
:01:34. > :01:36.offices. The party's other amendment, number 65, suggested the
:01:37. > :01:43.flying of bespoke council flags on days to be determined by individual
:01:44. > :01:46.councils. One of the Ulster Unionist amendments called for the Union flag
:01:47. > :01:49.to be flown every day at Belfast city Council offices. We begin with
:01:50. > :02:01.Anna Lo setting out the Alliance stall. In the majority of the jewels
:02:02. > :02:07.in Scotland and Wales this would represent the constitutional status
:02:08. > :02:15.of Northern Ireland. I am disappointed that some parties have
:02:16. > :02:22.feel the need to table a petition. As legislators, it is up to others
:02:23. > :02:26.to have a mature and thoughtful discussions on contentious issues.
:02:27. > :02:33.It is up to others to find the solutions. Putting forward petitions
:02:34. > :02:38.of concerned prevents as having a full debate on this issue. These
:02:39. > :02:47.amendments are already dead in the water, which is deeply regretful. As
:02:48. > :02:53.the member outlines, the Belfast agreement seeing what people want,
:02:54. > :02:58.in Belfast, 16,000 people responded to the consultation, 95% of whom
:02:59. > :03:04.said they wanted to flank to remain every day of the year. Given that
:03:05. > :03:15.number, should her party not have recognised the will of the people in
:03:16. > :03:19.that? There are many people who support this. This is a compromise
:03:20. > :03:28.agreement and that is the way to go. It is based on equality. If we
:03:29. > :03:34.do not do it. We do not put in this compromise agreement that there will
:03:35. > :03:40.be no flank but the council office. That would be the case if Sinn Fein
:03:41. > :03:51.had the array. We have proved former designated days. I give way. But the
:03:52. > :03:58.member you gave way to previously brought up this figure of 16,000,
:03:59. > :04:04.they have to recognise that nearly 1 million people live in Belfast. It
:04:05. > :04:10.is only a fraction of the number of people who live in the capital city.
:04:11. > :04:18.What is most patronising is that the Alliance party not only telling is
:04:19. > :04:26.what to do, but the are putting forward the new design of flight to
:04:27. > :04:34.be in its place. Northern Ireland as part of Great Britain and those
:04:35. > :04:42.people feel that should be represented. I feel the Good Friday
:04:43. > :04:51.Agreement regulates for this. The days for British amendments being
:04:52. > :04:55.put forward by long gone. In my own constituency, the union flag is not
:04:56. > :05:00.flown from a council building, various mutual respect for all who
:05:01. > :05:06.work within the building and indeed, those who visit it. The
:05:07. > :05:18.council building is neutral and three from flanks. We should maybe
:05:19. > :05:33.do a bus run, taking 82 of Londonderry. We will do it to and Mr
:05:34. > :05:41.Campbell can do that, we will look at the Guildhall and see all the
:05:42. > :05:45.symbols of British identity, of historic imperialism in our city, of
:05:46. > :05:50.which we have not scrubbed away because I think it is important to
:05:51. > :05:58.recognise our history, because we have a shared history. I am not
:05:59. > :06:05.proposing we have done the walls of the city because they are a symbol
:06:06. > :06:19.of British imperialism. We have two debate the issue of restoring the
:06:20. > :06:24.unified in its rightful place. If the decision had not been taken back
:06:25. > :06:32.in December 2012 to take it down, we would not be here today. A wrong
:06:33. > :06:41.decision was taken at that time. We are having a debate around the city
:06:42. > :06:50.Hall in Belfast and everything except talking about the amendments.
:06:51. > :07:01.There are so many nationalities who come here and when they may continue
:07:02. > :07:13.to identify themselves as Irish Americans, but the one thing they do
:07:14. > :07:18.is the talk about the national flag. The thing you need to accept is that
:07:19. > :07:25.most people do not care. They want to move on and enjoy their lives.
:07:26. > :07:29.There are people here still talking about this issue, people have been
:07:30. > :07:36.out on the streets for the last year, riots in the streets, we have
:07:37. > :07:40.destroyed the Belfast city centre, so it is important to some people.
:07:41. > :07:49.When it comes to the issue about how we deal with the particular position
:07:50. > :07:57.on the amendment, I am surprised that they brought it. It is
:07:58. > :08:05.mischievous. It is designed for political opportunism. When the
:08:06. > :08:18.Alliance party may be calculated and deliberate move to empower Sinn Fein
:08:19. > :08:23.and the SPL he too obtained a long-held objective of pulling down
:08:24. > :08:30.the Union flag from the building. Not only did the release turmoil on
:08:31. > :08:39.our streets, but they then sought to take refuge in something of a
:08:40. > :08:45.catchphrase, it was a democratic decision. How critical to note that
:08:46. > :08:50.when it comes to this house debating the issue, that this house is not to
:08:51. > :09:02.be allowed to make a democratic decision because of the pernicious
:09:03. > :09:06.use of the petition of concern. TUV leader Jim Allister. Journalist
:09:07. > :09:09.Steven McCaffery, from The Detail website, is with me. Steven, after
:09:10. > :09:13.well over a day of debate it was only when the MLAs got to that
:09:14. > :09:21.familiar issue of flags that the temperature began to rise in the
:09:22. > :09:24.chamber. It did rise, but maybe not even meet in the wee some people
:09:25. > :09:28.thought it would. The Unionist members were almost going through
:09:29. > :09:35.the emulsion, you could not escape the feeling that people see this
:09:36. > :09:45.issue of the Union flag as being a horse that has bolted. The most
:09:46. > :09:56.passionate contribution was Basil McCrea. Run the issue first arose,
:09:57. > :10:05.he, unlike many unionist, argued that he designated day for it to be
:10:06. > :10:09.flown was quite a good idea. He was referring back to that today. He was
:10:10. > :10:20.suggesting it was an opportunity lost. We also have this spat about
:10:21. > :10:26.the sense of Irishness, relating to the likes of the rugby team. Yes,
:10:27. > :10:35.the Unionists accused the Nationalists of what mixing of
:10:36. > :10:43.identity. Week to the extremes, like the courting of extracts from the
:10:44. > :10:47.Good Friday Agreement, with relation to the likes of emblems. The
:10:48. > :10:53.response from nationalists was that the agreement did not spell out
:10:54. > :11:01.about flags and there should be a compromise and an even tempered
:11:02. > :11:06.approach. Is there not some sense that this was the whole debate
:11:07. > :11:19.because this needs cross-party support and that is never going to
:11:20. > :11:22.happen. Yes, you need a consensus and Ludwig was possibly dead before
:11:23. > :11:34.it even started and that maybe contributed to that slightly
:11:35. > :11:44.lacklustre feeling about it. Do you get a sense that in some cases, they
:11:45. > :11:54.are maybe playing to the gallery, with elections down the road? Yes,
:11:55. > :12:06.for the Unionists to ask for Union flag the two be flying 365 days a
:12:07. > :12:09.year was a bit of a nonstarter. ? Steven, thank you.
:12:10. > :12:16.Well, after that very lengthy debate on just four amendments, the
:12:17. > :12:26.Minister got to his feet to respond. As we have here today again and
:12:27. > :12:35.again, the issue of flags is a contentious issue. It was agreed
:12:36. > :12:42.that this bill was not appropriate for resolving that issue. I would
:12:43. > :12:53.like in conclusion to commend members for their mature approach to
:12:54. > :12:56.parts 1-5. I asked them to revert to that and maintain the constructive
:12:57. > :13:04.approach as the bill progresses to sue its next stage. I would urge
:13:05. > :13:13.them not to be tempted, and I reiterate tempted, to any major
:13:14. > :13:19.reactions. Letters lead. Letters get through this ground-breaking piece
:13:20. > :13:24.of legislation that will transform local government and bring power
:13:25. > :13:31.closer to the people. These amendments to the opposite to that.
:13:32. > :13:34.I recommend that members should reflect reject all four.
:13:35. > :13:37.Environment Minister, Mark H Durkan. Let us return to yesterday's
:13:38. > :13:40.late-night sitting. MLAs were in the chamber until ten o'clock, debating
:13:41. > :13:42.yet another group of amendments. The Environment Minister expressed
:13:43. > :13:45.strong opposition to amendments tabled by Alliance to replace the
:13:46. > :13:55.D'Hondt System as the preferred mechanism for allocating posts in
:13:56. > :14:01.local councils. The schedule provides that the default method
:14:02. > :14:05.should be by that D'Hondt method unless the Council, by a qualified
:14:06. > :14:11.majority has selected a specific method. One of the method specified
:14:12. > :14:17.in part two of the schedule is the use of the single transferable vote
:14:18. > :14:22.to fill the positions. The effect of these amendments would mean that
:14:23. > :14:29.instead of D'Hondt being the default method, STV would be the default
:14:30. > :14:35.method. The use of the D'Hondt method as the default option was
:14:36. > :14:39.agreed by the political parties represented on the strategic
:14:40. > :14:45.leadership board. The use of STV as a default method was discussed by
:14:46. > :14:51.the Environment Committee and rejected. We believe that it is a
:14:52. > :14:55.system which better reflects the cross community government that we
:14:56. > :15:01.wish to see implemented on the new councils. It also makes sure that
:15:02. > :15:09.bolts of independence or groups too small to make quota are not lost
:15:10. > :15:15.when locating seats -- votes. This will ensure that all parts of the
:15:16. > :15:21.community are able to influence positions of responsibility and
:15:22. > :15:28.reduce the likelihood of a carve up of seats. Under the dance system, it
:15:29. > :15:32.would currently be too easy for one section of the community to be
:15:33. > :15:43.excluded from governments and Harry -- D'Hondt.
:15:44. > :15:48.In the past, Sinn Fein would have been reluctant to see the
:15:49. > :15:52.transferring of additional powers and responsibilities to local
:15:53. > :15:57.government, not least because of incidents of misuse of powers in
:15:58. > :16:02.certain councils and that is why safeguards are so important and in
:16:03. > :16:07.particular, I want to note that positions of responsibility will be
:16:08. > :16:13.allocated according to party political strength via D'Hondt as
:16:14. > :16:17.the default position. This is real progress and throughout our analysis
:16:18. > :16:23.of the bill, Sinn Fein has been at pains to point out that we will not
:16:24. > :16:30.accept anything short of the D'Hondt principle. It is clear to us, when
:16:31. > :16:37.all the parties agreed that D'Hondt would be the mechanism that we would
:16:38. > :16:46.rely upon, as the default mechanism, and it is difficult to
:16:47. > :16:50.hear from the Alliance Party, when they had two ministers and they do
:16:51. > :16:56.not have a right to them, talking about proportionality, it perhaps
:16:57. > :17:02.explains why they are not too clued up on the figures around how STV and
:17:03. > :17:08.D'Hondt would affect the filling of positions on any given council. 68
:17:09. > :17:14.of the Ulster Unionist Party proposal and that is clearly that
:17:15. > :17:19.there would be a minimum three years for the rate conversion support. I
:17:20. > :17:24.do hear other members and the minister talking that there is much
:17:25. > :17:29.good work going on between the Department of Finance and personnel
:17:30. > :17:32.and the DoE in respect of bringing forward the mechanism and proposals
:17:33. > :17:37.and I have no doubt that that is happening and I hope it progresses
:17:38. > :17:42.well. All we are trying to do is ensure that that is in place for a
:17:43. > :17:48.minimum of three years, otherwise you could have some sort of support
:17:49. > :17:55.to councils for one year and then it is over to you, get the money from
:17:56. > :18:00.the ratepayer and let them pay for this change. There are huge issues
:18:01. > :18:06.for different councils and I am not sure whether Mr Elliott is declaring
:18:07. > :18:17.an interest between Fermanagh merging with Omagh and the problems
:18:18. > :18:22.that would cause. It is important to protect ratepayers and that they
:18:23. > :18:31.know that that has been thought about, debated in this Assembly and
:18:32. > :18:35.those points made. John McCallister of NI21. So twelve years since the
:18:36. > :18:39.launch of RPA and after two days of debate, is the Local Government Bill
:18:40. > :18:41.shaping up to be a good piece of legislation? Will it give the 11 new
:18:42. > :18:45.super-councils the power and guidance they need to work well?
:18:46. > :18:47.Joining me is Derek McCallan, the Chief Executive of the Northern
:18:48. > :18:51.Ireland Local Government Association... So what have you made
:18:52. > :18:54.of the last two days? The last two days have been like the 12 years you
:18:55. > :18:58.mention, it has been a marathon, there has been forensics work done
:18:59. > :19:02.by all of the members participating in the debate and has been a lot of
:19:03. > :19:08.preparation in the three years prior to those days and it did not
:19:09. > :19:12.surprise me that there had been that level scrutiny of. That is what a
:19:13. > :19:22.committee is for and that is good government. What are the key bits of
:19:23. > :19:27.the bill for you? The key elements for ourselves by the strengthening
:19:28. > :19:31.and the provision of new powers, because of the transfer of functions
:19:32. > :19:36.and chapter one of the transfer of functions, because there will be
:19:37. > :19:43.additional powers subject to review beyond the limitation on day one.
:19:44. > :19:54.What about the issue of flags? Would you rather it was resolved here and
:19:55. > :19:58.enshrined in legislation? Our view is a membership association on this
:19:59. > :20:02.matter is that there is time within the period of the shadow councils
:20:03. > :20:08.commencing and the day one of the new councils. It has to be a
:20:09. > :20:10.combined effort, there has to be shared political leadership.
:20:11. > :20:16.Framework could be introduced and that could be tailored by the local
:20:17. > :20:25.implementation bodies -- a framework. You would kick the can
:20:26. > :20:32.down the road a bit further? Let us get these things bedded in and get
:20:33. > :20:36.them right. The extra money that's being made to new councillors, up
:20:37. > :20:50.from just under ?10k pa to just over ?14k pa, does that make sense? It
:20:51. > :20:54.makes sense when you consider that there has been very little
:20:55. > :21:00.movement, there has been in a share in terms of remembering shin for
:21:01. > :21:04.councils for five years. Some of the powers, not just a transfer of
:21:05. > :21:10.functions, but the responsibilities, the management of issues to do with
:21:11. > :21:15.reputation as well as services, all of these will require new
:21:16. > :21:20.competencies and challenges -- renumeration. When one looks at that
:21:21. > :21:24.process in comparison to our colleagues who are MLAs, it is not
:21:25. > :21:31.something people do for the money, there is no more public spirited
:21:32. > :21:36.area than in terms of councils. It is fair and it creates, at least an
:21:37. > :21:42.opportunity to incentivise people who have trade, to keep those
:21:43. > :21:45.trades, but also get a significant remuneration associated with the job
:21:46. > :21:55.that they do in addition to their main job. Do you think it will be a
:21:56. > :21:59.workable piece of legislation for the the new councils to work from?
:22:00. > :22:03.The bill in itself, it gives a framework. It will be down to the
:22:04. > :22:07.interpretation and that means interpretation not just by the
:22:08. > :22:13.councils but by the departments. It cannot be a top-down command and
:22:14. > :22:16.control. It cannot be 11 admin this to tune at serving all the
:22:17. > :22:24.government departments, it has to bring the local into government --
:22:25. > :22:28.administrations. We need to make sure there is more participative
:22:29. > :22:33.local democracy and make the good councils great. The bill gives us a
:22:34. > :22:41.framework. Derek McCallan, thank you. This morning the marathon
:22:42. > :22:44.debate over the wholesale changes to local government in Northern Ireland
:22:45. > :22:47.focused on some planning powers being transferred to the new
:22:48. > :22:49.councils. The Alliance MLA Anna Lo, who chairs the Environment
:22:50. > :22:55.Committee, brought a list of amendments dealing with this to the
:22:56. > :22:59.Assembly. The inclusion of community planning in this bill is greatly
:23:00. > :23:05.welcomed by many stakeholders. However, there are concerns that
:23:06. > :23:10.unless the wording of the bill is strengthened, then this will be a
:23:11. > :23:14.missed opportunity. It is important that the community is involved in
:23:15. > :23:21.shaping health and well-being provisions, the Alliance Party has
:23:22. > :23:27.tabled several amendments in this group on community planning and how
:23:28. > :23:33.to ensure it is best utilised. Any society, which intimidated or
:23:34. > :23:37.generates fear amongst some of its citizens or systematically excludes
:23:38. > :23:44.or discriminate against them, cannot be equal. In turn, a shared society
:23:45. > :23:51.cannot be delivered without equality. Therefore, to achieve
:23:52. > :23:57.equality, we must insist on inclusion and to achieve inclusion,
:23:58. > :24:02.we must insist on equality. Surely in Northern Ireland we have seen the
:24:03. > :24:08.divisions in Northern Ireland, the bad feelings between communities,
:24:09. > :24:13.the deep political divide, I love this country, but there are many
:24:14. > :24:19.things that are wrong here in Northern Ireland. Good relations
:24:20. > :24:24.being one. What we are intent on doing in ensuring we get this
:24:25. > :24:28.right, is ensuring we do not have good relations, being used as a
:24:29. > :24:36.reason to trump equality issues around the are slang which an social
:24:37. > :24:43.housing and other things. We need to ensure that we do do not allow good
:24:44. > :24:50.relations as an excuse to prevent equality. -- the Irish language. In
:24:51. > :24:54.truth, no one knows how community planning will work out. There was
:24:55. > :25:02.widespread concerns that were raised by many people that the legislation
:25:03. > :25:08.was not perhaps tight enough and I think it has been put before RAS --
:25:09. > :25:15.before RAS in an attempt to tighten that situation and ensure as best as
:25:16. > :25:21.possible to ensure it works well -- before us. There were 335 community
:25:22. > :25:25.groups and we have to find a way, and I do not see it yet, as to how
:25:26. > :25:30.we get the community groups involved and the answer at the time from the
:25:31. > :25:33.Minister and I asked who was involved in the community was the
:25:34. > :25:38.people that live there, worked there, the people that passed
:25:39. > :25:43.through, the people that are affected by what happens, before we
:25:44. > :25:48.realise that we are talking about everyone. I am worried about the use
:25:49. > :25:53.of political opinion, that people are allowed... You cannot hold a
:25:54. > :25:59.certain opinion. In any other jurisdiction, that approach would be
:26:00. > :26:03.considered to be non-liberal, because the whole idea about a
:26:04. > :26:08.pluralist democracy is that you are allowed to hold differences of
:26:09. > :26:12.opinion. The amendment adds to the clause which places a duty on
:26:13. > :26:16.councils to deliver community banning. The purpose is to clarify
:26:17. > :26:21.that, improving the social well-being of the district and this
:26:22. > :26:26.will include promoting equality of opportunity and improving the
:26:27. > :26:32.economic well-being and this will include tackling property, social
:26:33. > :26:35.exclusion and patterns of deprivation. Mark H Durkan. Steven
:26:36. > :26:41.McCaffery, from The Detail, has rejoined me... The complete reform
:26:42. > :26:45.of local government has been a long time coming. Was it always going to
:26:46. > :26:53.be difficult for him to only take charge in the last six months? Yes.
:26:54. > :26:57.It is a massive issue. We are not only looking at downsizing, also
:26:58. > :27:03.expanding the powers of the council. Huge logistical issues, but
:27:04. > :27:09.on top of that, as we saw around flags, those political issues are
:27:10. > :27:17.causing problems. When the councils are bedded in, that is when we see
:27:18. > :27:26.them fully operating. We will see how the transfers of Paris is
:27:27. > :27:36.working. This is about changing democracy and local accountability.
:27:37. > :27:48.-- powers. A new breed of councillors? I would not worry about
:27:49. > :27:55.the negative publicity. A government cost money, we want value for money.
:27:56. > :28:10.We will know about that when the new system is up and running. The
:28:11. > :28:13.so-called super-council model is supposed to make local government
:28:14. > :28:17.more efficient and cost the taxpayer less, but not everyone is firmly
:28:18. > :28:22.behind it? The argument is that at times we will see the benefit of
:28:23. > :28:29.that. The proof of the pudding will be in NEETs and in this case, huge
:28:30. > :28:37.organisations being formed will have an impact -- in the eating. Steven,
:28:38. > :28:42.thank you. That's it from this special edition of Stormont Today.
:28:43. > :28:43.There's another helping of political discussion and debate on The View
:28:44. > :28:47.tomorrow night at 10.35pm on BBC One. Do make a point of joining me
:28:48. > :28:57.for that. Until then, bye-bye...