:00:27. > :00:29.Hello, and welcome to Stormont Today. As the sun shone on
:00:29. > :00:34.Parliament buildings and the temperature soared outside of the
:00:34. > :00:40.chamber, things were getting hot and heavy inside, as well.
:00:40. > :00:44.He should call, he is the person who has not been able to deliver.
:00:44. > :00:47.He is the person that one year ago was stalking the bid talks, I am
:00:47. > :00:52.going to do this, I am going to do that. We have seen what happens
:00:52. > :00:55.when you make decisions - absolute chaos, absolute destruction of the
:00:55. > :00:58.NHS. And Colin last orders for
:00:58. > :01:05.irresponsible drinking. The there are a small number who
:01:05. > :01:07.are clearly on the wrong side of the law, and they now need their
:01:07. > :01:14.irresponsible practices to become bitter.
:01:14. > :01:23.My guest at the seizing his the BMA's Dr Paul Barrar, who is aware
:01:23. > :01:27.A premature and wrong decision, that is how the closure of Belfast
:01:27. > :01:32.City Hospital's A&E department was described in the chamber today.
:01:32. > :01:36.What is your view on that closure? I think it is a positive sign that
:01:36. > :01:39.this issue is being debated at the higher levels of our local
:01:39. > :01:44.Government and the Assembly. It is being given the prominence it
:01:44. > :01:49.deserves. There has been a long- standing problem with the provision
:01:49. > :01:53.of emergency services across the province. We saw it in Ulster two
:01:53. > :01:59.years ago leading to the reconfiguration of a hospital there
:01:59. > :02:04.and withdrawal of acute services and the A&E department. These
:02:04. > :02:08.issues are due to be addressed in the Compton review. In the short
:02:08. > :02:11.term, we need to deal with the issue as it is and we have seen
:02:11. > :02:15.demonstrated it -- seen it demonstrated graphically at the
:02:16. > :02:19.Royal Victoria Hospital to stop a should the A&E department be re-
:02:19. > :02:23.opened? I think there needs a look -- needs
:02:23. > :02:27.to be a look at all those factors are of -- factors that contributed
:02:27. > :02:32.to that incident, and that means looking at how referrals are made,
:02:32. > :02:39.whether they be self referrals by the patient themselves or by a GP.
:02:39. > :02:43.Those processes within of the A&E department, tree azure systems,
:02:43. > :02:46.management systems, and how the A&E department to react and enter links
:02:46. > :02:50.with a hospital. And how it operates, because that
:02:50. > :02:54.seems to be part of the problem, doesn't it? It is not a question of
:02:54. > :02:59.how many departments we have, but how they are operated, people
:02:59. > :03:03.sitting for hours on end. Indeed, for example the number of
:03:03. > :03:07.beds within other wards within the hospital will determine how quickly
:03:07. > :03:15.you can move a patient from the A&E department to another ward. They
:03:15. > :03:19.may be waiting to get to a bed in another ward in hospital.
:03:19. > :03:25.The Ulster Unionist Party has called on the health minister to
:03:25. > :03:31.resign. Basil McRae made at the demand to
:03:31. > :03:35.resign during a debate on the Royal. Members were keen to hear what the
:03:35. > :03:40.Minister was going to do to ease the situation.
:03:40. > :03:43.Like the rest of the committee members, I was hugely impressed
:03:43. > :03:48.with the demonstration -- demonstration of professionalism
:03:48. > :03:52.from the medical staff. They are committed to dealing with this
:03:52. > :03:57.problem and indeed the senior management of the Belfast Trust is
:03:57. > :04:01.committed to dealing with the problem. The reality is, accident
:04:01. > :04:04.and the beds they cannot cope with this on its own. I have commended
:04:04. > :04:09.the staff of the A&E department, because I know they are doing a
:04:09. > :04:12.great job, I have said the problem is not accent and dependency, it is
:04:12. > :04:15.other parts of the hospital. The need to be supported by other parts
:04:16. > :04:20.of the hospital. A unfortunately, the situation at
:04:20. > :04:27.the Royal is something of a microcosm of an unacceptable
:04:27. > :04:30.situation in A&E departments across the North. We have to ask why.
:04:30. > :04:38.There are too many people presenting at A&E departments who
:04:38. > :04:46.have no need to be there. At 2008 reviewed indicated attendances at
:04:46. > :04:56.Kearney here were plenty-30 % higher -- 20-30 % higher than in
:04:56. > :05:00.other islands. Mr Deputy Speaker, the premature
:05:00. > :05:07.closure of the City Hospital has been a total disaster. Anyone with
:05:07. > :05:11.a brain at all what will have known or should have known that some
:05:11. > :05:16.40,000 patients will have to go somewhere. It is totally obvious
:05:16. > :05:22.this was a premature and wrong decision. Certainly, until proper
:05:22. > :05:32.provision was available somewhere else. And how a QC in 2008-09, as
:05:32. > :05:32.
:05:32. > :05:36.compared today, the Health Minister of that you had an odd lift of some
:05:36. > :05:40.�500 million. Where did that money go? -- and a
:05:40. > :05:44.lift. How is it glad we got to the year 2011 and did not see the
:05:44. > :05:50.improvement? We did not see the improvements, Mr Deputy Speaker,
:05:50. > :05:56.from that time until now, and one would want to know how the money
:05:56. > :05:59.was spent and where it has went, because I do believe there is
:06:00. > :06:06.considerable money within the system, and we need to ensure we
:06:06. > :06:09.spend that money wisely. We do not waste money within a our health
:06:09. > :06:16.service. Wes Brown was talking about issues
:06:16. > :06:20.to do with County Antrim. She said that heads Muzzle, I agree with her.
:06:20. > :06:25.Heads must roll. He is the person who has not been able to deliver,
:06:25. > :06:28.he is the person but a year ago was talking the big talk, I am going to
:06:28. > :06:33.do that, I am going to make the decisions. We have seen what
:06:33. > :06:38.happens when you make the decisions - absolute chaos, absolute
:06:38. > :06:42.destruction of the NHS. That is what you were responsible for. You,
:06:42. > :06:48.Minister, should be ashamed of yourself.
:06:48. > :06:54.Minimum alcohol surprising and so- called booze buses have been in the
:06:54. > :06:58.spotlight recently. -- alcohol pricing. During question time,
:06:58. > :07:01.ministers said it was time for everyone to get at their Houses in
:07:01. > :07:09.order. Irresponsible actions, be it by
:07:09. > :07:13.those who sell drink or those who are the excessive drinking on buses
:07:13. > :07:18.and coaches is something that this Assembly, through all the various
:07:18. > :07:28.ministers, needs to bear down on. There are issues that clearly now
:07:28. > :07:31.need to be addressed. In my meetings with bus and coach
:07:31. > :07:35.operators and nightclubs I said very firmly that the media
:07:35. > :07:40.spotlight is very much concentrated on them and there and -- their
:07:40. > :07:45.activities. There are many good bus and coach operators. There are many
:07:45. > :07:50.responsible sellers of drink, both in of seals and on sales. There are
:07:50. > :07:54.at a small number who are clearly on the wrong side of the law and
:07:54. > :08:03.the need their irresponsible practices to be curbed. I will be
:08:03. > :08:07.bringing forward various proposals on licences in the near future.
:08:07. > :08:12.The Alex at Lake then moved on to responsibilities of developers.
:08:12. > :08:16.This issue about developers who are in development seeking planning
:08:16. > :08:25.applications, who are getting planning permissions and at the
:08:25. > :08:29.same time are leading to rack and ruin sites that have not been
:08:29. > :08:36.developed for been abandoned during development is an issue I think we
:08:36. > :08:45.need to address. At this stage we may be going as
:08:45. > :08:49.far as imposing fines on developers who cease -- continued to trade who
:08:49. > :08:52.failed to complete works in order to make sure they step up to the
:08:52. > :08:56.mark and go forward. The Health Minister was next,
:08:56. > :09:00.answering questions about community pharmacy.
:09:01. > :09:04.I remain utterly committed to establishing a sustainable way
:09:04. > :09:09.forward for community pharmacy that will make better use of skilled and
:09:09. > :09:13.dedicated professionals to provide high-quality advice and support to
:09:13. > :09:17.patients in the wider community. I also announced in the Assembly on
:09:17. > :09:22.16th March that an additional �8 million of funding for 2012 has
:09:22. > :09:28.been released and is available to support new services, improve
:09:28. > :09:32.premises and support staff in rural and deprived areas. I have had to
:09:32. > :09:37.proceed on the best evidence available. I know: community
:09:37. > :09:40.pharmacies to agreed to participate in the surveys my department will
:09:40. > :09:44.now be undertaking and to provide the farm at -- further information
:09:44. > :09:49.that is needed. The longer this information is withheld at the
:09:49. > :09:55.longer it will take to arrive at an agreed solution.
:09:55. > :10:01.Can the Minister outline what steps he is taking to be in contact with
:10:01. > :10:05.community pharmacists? As I am sure he is well aware, they believe this
:10:05. > :10:10.falls short of what they had originally anticipated.
:10:10. > :10:15.I would tend to agree that it does fall short of what was anticipated,
:10:15. > :10:22.albeit perhaps what was anticipated was not correct in the first
:10:22. > :10:28.instance. I have instructed officials to try to engage with
:10:28. > :10:35.officials -- pharmacists, because negotiations were very much about
:10:36. > :10:39.what had already happened in 2011- 12. I do think there is a huge
:10:39. > :10:46.opportunity to move forward together to make proper use of our
:10:46. > :10:52.community pharmacists and give them the requisite amount of money for
:10:52. > :10:56.the services they provide. Can the Minister give an assessment
:10:56. > :11:00.to on the scope for the efficiencies in administration and
:11:00. > :11:07.management within the health service?
:11:07. > :11:13.I personally think it is substantial. In this particular
:11:13. > :11:17.case the savings we would be aiming for as the years transpire will
:11:17. > :11:21.actually take us to around �17 million per gear. We should not
:11:21. > :11:25.ignore that, because if we spend that sort of money on
:11:25. > :11:30.administration, we don't have it to spend on hip-replacement, we don't
:11:30. > :11:34.have it to spend on Accident and Emergency, we don't have it to
:11:34. > :11:38.spend on new cancer drugs. By a member was here today is saying,
:11:38. > :11:42.you should be spending on that on administration as opposed to the
:11:42. > :11:47.other things. I am afraid I would have to disagree with those members.
:11:47. > :11:50.I have to say I will be standing by my manifesto election commitments
:11:50. > :12:00.and disagreeing with those members who want to spend health money on
:12:00. > :12:02.
:12:02. > :12:07.administration. I want to spend it We were talking about drink, and it
:12:07. > :12:14.is a massive problem in the hospitals, isn't it? Yes,
:12:14. > :12:20.especially on a Friday or Saturday night. Gauthier Andy and you will
:12:20. > :12:25.see the damage that alcohol can do. We're talking about assaults, road
:12:26. > :12:31.traffic accidents and then we sometimes have people coming in
:12:31. > :12:36.with the long-term results of alcohol. Do we have time to wait
:12:36. > :12:44.for the review to sort these issues out? There is a sense of urgency
:12:44. > :12:49.here and there is not seemingly a sense of urgency? There are many
:12:49. > :12:59.things we can do now. Minimum pricing on alcohol, and then go to
:12:59. > :13:01.
:13:01. > :13:06.the use of alcohol as a lost leader in some of our big shops. Alcohol
:13:06. > :13:10.is too readily available. The BMA does not see itself as a killjoy,
:13:10. > :13:17.we think there is a role for alcohol in society but that alcohol
:13:17. > :13:21.should be enjoyed responsibly and safely. Sue Ramsey resisted earlier
:13:21. > :13:24.that there are problems of other parts of the hospitals. What about
:13:24. > :13:28.this idea that GPs should and have to go through a n d to get a
:13:28. > :13:33.patient admitted into hospital and that might cut down some of the
:13:33. > :13:40.traffic? That is something that needs to be looked at between
:13:41. > :13:43.cranny care physicians and those doctors who work in hospitals. It
:13:43. > :13:48.is certainly something we need to look at but it needs to be looked
:13:48. > :13:55.at in the round. There is a lot we need to do. The Minister talks
:13:55. > :14:01.about the shift on to them Compton review about shifting care into
:14:01. > :14:05.private care. With people being treated at home? Yes, which would
:14:05. > :14:11.relieve a lot of the pressure on hospitals and secondary care. But
:14:11. > :14:14.to do that, it needs to be planned and managed and resourced. Prison
:14:14. > :14:18.officers and the justice minister David Ford have reached agreement
:14:18. > :14:22.on new working practices. The Prison Service has been plagued by
:14:22. > :14:27.bad reviews and poor relations between staff and management. David
:14:27. > :14:32.Ford told the chamber that was now coming to an end.
:14:32. > :14:37.They have been a further review of body imaging scanners in line with
:14:37. > :14:41.the report. On the basis of that review, I intend to initiate a
:14:41. > :14:44.pilot of a full body imaging scanners as soon as the necessary
:14:44. > :14:52.authorisation for use of this technology in prisons is obtained.
:14:52. > :14:57.Caress him to outline on page four or, he refers to the further review
:14:57. > :15:03.of full body imaging scanners will stop the Minister will be aware of
:15:03. > :15:09.how emotive this matter is. Could he outlined a time frame and target
:15:09. > :15:19.for the introduction of this mechanism and who does he need
:15:19. > :15:23.authorisation from to go forward? He referred to the issue of full
:15:23. > :15:29.body searching it as being emotive and it certainly is. The prison
:15:29. > :15:32.service in Northern Ireland uses full body searching when necessary
:15:32. > :15:36.in order to ensure the safety and security of prisoners and prison
:15:36. > :15:39.officers. It is clearly something that we would wish to move away
:15:39. > :15:45.from where we can provide that security without full body
:15:45. > :15:50.searching. I can, at this stage, give no timescale for the
:15:50. > :15:59.introduction of the technology. I can give a commitment that as soon
:15:59. > :16:04.as licensing is agreed, it is my intention that they have an island
:16:04. > :16:09.prison service will be able to make sure they can use the technology to
:16:09. > :16:17.see how quickly it is possible to introduce alternatives to full-body
:16:17. > :16:21.searching but the necessity is to insure safety. Good read as the
:16:21. > :16:26.Minister did he receive legal advice on the conditions that can
:16:26. > :16:34.be attached for present officers. Did he read the advice or rely on
:16:34. > :16:38.some missions from officials? not personally read legal advice on
:16:38. > :16:46.the issues of the severance package, I think it is entirely reasonable
:16:47. > :16:52.that ministers should read officials but the point is about
:16:52. > :16:57.re-engagement of prison officers, I cannot give him the news that 4900
:16:57. > :17:04.applicants for the new custody officer posts which were received
:17:04. > :17:10.by the Department, one comes from a serving a prison officer. If there
:17:10. > :17:14.is not agreement on the uniform, does that mean the existing uniform
:17:14. > :17:20.will prevail for all staff? I got a made it clear in response to my
:17:20. > :17:24.first answer that the issue of uniforms for new staff may be
:17:24. > :17:30.something different than what is there currently but we have clearly
:17:30. > :17:34.established in this chamber in the past the precise detail of uniforms
:17:34. > :17:39.might well be regarded as controversial as to require
:17:39. > :17:42.Executive approval. Journey me now is the chair of the justice
:17:42. > :17:46.committee, are you happy this will end the antagonism that has existed
:17:46. > :17:53.between prison officers and management? I think the process
:17:53. > :17:56.should be welcomed. Leadership have stretched themselves to try and
:17:56. > :18:00.accommodate prison service management and that has required
:18:00. > :18:02.compromise but ultimately the finer detail still needs to be worked out
:18:02. > :18:06.but is moving in the right direction and we should welcome
:18:06. > :18:11.that. A sign of the Times, the number of people applying for jobs
:18:11. > :18:15.that will be indicated by people taking redundancy packages? 200 new
:18:15. > :18:23.custody officers, they wanted to ensure that you are selected on the
:18:23. > :18:26.basis of merit. We have changed the fifty-fifty recruitment, these
:18:26. > :18:29.individuals will come forward on merit but it does show the
:18:29. > :18:34.difficulties in our economy when so many people are applying for these
:18:34. > :18:44.jobs but it is a job that is valued so I can understand the demand that
:18:44. > :18:44.
:18:44. > :18:48.exists for it. What about the issue of uniform, when it came in?
:18:48. > :18:52.issue has been dealt with and I think it is important that it was
:18:52. > :18:56.resolved when David Ford race that initially. Peter Robinson made it
:18:56. > :19:00.very clear that emblems and badges was not going to change and would
:19:00. > :19:03.be subject to the be to we have in the Executive. That has been
:19:03. > :19:06.clarified, it is important we get into the fine detail of how the
:19:06. > :19:09.prisoners going to operate, the structures that will be put in
:19:09. > :19:14.place, the environment you are working in so that we can focus on
:19:14. > :19:18.those details rather than being fixated with a uniform. When it
:19:18. > :19:22.comes down to the body imaging equipment that David Ford has been
:19:22. > :19:26.talking about, how important is that any attempts to resolve the
:19:26. > :19:30.Maghaberry dispute? That dispute is a long running one which needs to
:19:30. > :19:33.come to an end and David Ford needs to stand very firmly on the
:19:33. > :19:36.agreement that he had reached and should not be compromising with
:19:37. > :19:40.republicans that are protesting over this issue. The prison
:19:40. > :19:43.officers have made it clear that if there is technology that allows
:19:43. > :19:48.them to do the same job as they have been carrying out, they will
:19:48. > :19:53.support that. Ultimately, the safety of the security of those
:19:53. > :19:57.officers is paramount to ensure that prisoners that have been the
:19:57. > :20:00.past smuggled in Semtex, isn't allowed to happen again so let's
:20:00. > :20:04.see if this technology will get a licence to be operated within the
:20:04. > :20:09.UK but we shouldn't compromise the safety of the jail to facilitate
:20:09. > :20:13.these protesters. But it won't detect drugs which is surely a much
:20:13. > :20:18.greater problem for our prisons than a genuine threat of Semtex
:20:18. > :20:24.organs being smuggled and? Drugs is rife within a prison population, a
:20:24. > :20:32.significant issue in terms of the security of the present because
:20:32. > :20:34.some prisoners alleged are allowed to have medication in order to
:20:34. > :20:38.achieve a peaceful environment. That cannot be a sustainable way
:20:38. > :20:41.forward in the future. Medically it would not be good for prisoners to
:20:41. > :20:47.be taken of these drugs and that is something that needs to be dealt
:20:47. > :20:51.with. Be careful what you write on social
:20:51. > :20:56.media at be particularly careful what you write about politicians.
:20:56. > :20:59.Especially if you are about to appear before them. That is the
:20:59. > :21:03.painful lesson are representative of life in search and rescue
:21:03. > :21:11.learned last week. They will also hear from the justice committee but
:21:11. > :21:17.we start at social development and that cringe for the moment. I went
:21:17. > :21:27.into your own Facebook page and you are less than complimentary towards
:21:27. > :21:29.
:21:29. > :21:39.us politicians in at tongue and Duke remarked. If you are wanting
:21:39. > :21:39.
:21:39. > :21:46.to work with people. Read it out. It says all politicians can kiss my
:21:46. > :21:53.sweet ass. I would love to get on that particular invitation! I will
:21:53. > :21:59.not be taking you up on that. have not had a lot of dealings with
:21:59. > :22:09.politicians. I must say that that is not reflective of our website,
:22:09. > :22:09.
:22:09. > :22:18.that is my own a personal page. When you talk about my, but then
:22:18. > :22:28.you say we in the second part. is not the page for the rescue
:22:28. > :22:33.organisation. That is everybody's starting point. What has to be
:22:33. > :22:35.weighed up is the extent to which, albeit this is a person of bad
:22:36. > :22:42.character because they have confessed to involvement and a
:22:42. > :22:45.crime, you cannot rely on what they have to say. There may be
:22:45. > :22:48.circumstances where in fact that makes them all the more reliable
:22:48. > :22:56.but there may be other circumstances where it makes them
:22:56. > :23:01.unreliable. It has to be judged on the individual circumstances. It is
:23:01. > :23:06.a question that would be impossible to answer in a simple form.
:23:06. > :23:12.reasonable person, having read the media reports of the court case,
:23:12. > :23:15.and having heard the character of the witnesses which was revealed in
:23:15. > :23:24.the court and knowing that you knew that the character of those
:23:24. > :23:28.witnesses long before it got to court are staggered. The
:23:28. > :23:32.predecessor, knowing what he knew about the character of the
:23:32. > :23:42.witnesses, thought there was any chance of their evidence standing
:23:42. > :23:43.
:23:43. > :23:46.up in court, how did that happen? As I said, all accomplices are
:23:46. > :23:53.witnesses of bad character because they are witnesses of bad character
:23:53. > :23:58.that they are winners his chair crime. That is just starting point.
:23:58. > :24:03.You have to look at the evidence they give to see whether or not it
:24:03. > :24:09.is supported by other types of evidence or whether or not you
:24:09. > :24:13.could seek to rely on it. Did you sit down and analyse the cases that
:24:13. > :24:18.had collapsed, dozens in the Eighties, did you actually go and
:24:18. > :24:21.look at the transcripts and see what happened? I have done, yes.
:24:21. > :24:26.When I heard about this case, I thought they were going to problems
:24:26. > :24:31.because it was the same basis as so many others that had collapsed. Do
:24:31. > :24:35.you accept this has undermined public support, no, public
:24:35. > :24:39.confidence in the system, the fact we have had yet another one of
:24:39. > :24:44.these high-profile collapsing of cases? Of course I do, it is one of
:24:44. > :24:48.the reasons I am here, apart from the fact I feel I haven't
:24:48. > :24:56.obligation to inform this committee in broad terms about matters of
:24:56. > :24:59.criminal-justice. I raised this issue because I am aware of those
:24:59. > :25:04.concerns and the figure is important that the complexity of
:25:04. > :25:08.these situations be articulated and the public be assured.
:25:08. > :25:14.Foreign trips, and the Assembly to the report and an explosion in the
:25:14. > :25:18.number of all-party groups, all in a day's work at Stormont.
:25:18. > :25:23.We regularly have visitors from other areas but we are sending a
:25:23. > :25:28.delegation of now to another area which is Kosovo in the Balkans and
:25:28. > :25:32.the Speaker he rarely goes on these trips himself, is going with Judith
:25:32. > :25:36.Cochrane from the Alliance Party and David McLarty, the independent
:25:36. > :25:40.Unionist. This is a building of the relationship they have had put the
:25:40. > :25:46.last few years in the Assembly in Kosovo in which they have been
:25:46. > :25:51.exchanging research and IT. What is this about I here about we have
:25:51. > :25:55.some competition? The Assembly is going into the TV business, it is
:25:55. > :26:02.starting up a series of monthly programmes which is running on his
:26:02. > :26:05.website. Inevitably I don't imagine that it will go in for many exposes
:26:05. > :26:11.of the politicians here but they do have some interesting expand very
:26:11. > :26:17.stuff about had system works. Here is an excerpt of the work of the
:26:17. > :26:27.education service in the building. So, the Allies for getting rid of
:26:27. > :26:32.school uniform was 32. The nose for 12. The eyes when. We seem to have
:26:32. > :26:37.had an explosion in the number of all-party groups here? Yes, this is
:26:37. > :26:45.a more informal side of Stormont Live. We have as many as 22 all-
:26:45. > :26:50.party groups, many dealing with were the manners. Some of them may
:26:50. > :26:55.be more left-field, there is an all-party group on funerals and
:26:55. > :26:57.bereavement, and another one on rugby. There is one on
:26:57. > :27:01.international development, even though that is not a devolved
:27:01. > :27:06.matter and they will be active this week because they have some awards
:27:06. > :27:13.on Thursday night, I have been written as one of the judges, so it
:27:13. > :27:18.should be quite interesting. Schools and individuals all in for
:27:18. > :27:22.those awards and one interesting guest will be Ian Clark, the
:27:22. > :27:27.subject about BBC documentary this weekend, from County Armagh who is
:27:27. > :27:31.now an air in part of Kampala, the you gander capital and could
:27:31. > :27:34.probably teach hour home-grown politicians a thing or two about
:27:34. > :27:40.his approach to dealing with problems of the people he is
:27:40. > :27:45.representing their. The budget cuts that are coming
:27:45. > :27:52.down the track for the health service, particularly hospitals,
:27:52. > :27:56.just seemed unrealistic by? Everyone is aware of the current
:27:56. > :28:01.financial crisis and the challenges it imposes on the health service.
:28:01. > :28:03.There is room for efficiencies and doctors will not shirk from that
:28:03. > :28:09.responsibility but where there is a need for increased funding to
:28:09. > :28:14.deliver the care the patient needs, then we will be advocates for that.
:28:15. > :28:18.Where funding comes from and the priorities for funding is a
:28:18. > :28:22.discussion for wider society and for connected politicians but
:28:23. > :28:26.surely what defines us as a society is how we care and that that did