:00:23. > :00:27.Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up on the programme:
:00:27. > :00:30.The divisive issue of welfare reform was back on the floor.
:00:30. > :00:40.Members debated a new report on the equality implications of the
:00:40. > :00:40.
:00:40. > :00:45.Welfare Bill. In living document, as if like fine line -- fine wine
:00:45. > :00:46.it would improve with age. We'll be speaking to two members of the
:00:46. > :00:49.committee which put that report together.
:00:49. > :00:55.And why a question on European peace funding provoked this
:00:55. > :01:00.reaction from the Finance Minister. It does annoy me sometimes at the
:01:00. > :01:06.kind of ill informed comment that comes from people that seek to
:01:06. > :01:10.agitate when I hear this we get Proposed changes to welfare
:01:10. > :01:13.payments have starkly divided the Assembly in recent months. The DUP
:01:13. > :01:17.is broadly in favour of passing the legislation as quickly as possible
:01:17. > :01:19.to avoid financial penalties from Westminster. Sinn Fein and the SDLP
:01:19. > :01:24.are more hesitant, concerned that the changes will impact adversely
:01:24. > :01:27.on the most vulnerable. Last year, the Assembly set up a committee to
:01:27. > :01:35.examine the bill's implications on issues like equality and human
:01:35. > :01:40.rights and today that committee's report was debated in the chamber.
:01:40. > :01:44.One of the most significant aspects of the committee deliberation was
:01:44. > :01:48.consideration of the way in which the Department for Social
:01:48. > :01:55.Development had discharged its duty under section 75 of the Northern
:01:56. > :01:59.Ireland Act 1998 to carry out an equality impact assessment offer
:01:59. > :02:04.the Welfare Reform Bill. The department launched a public
:02:04. > :02:10.consultation on its draft in 2011 and published a final version in
:02:10. > :02:17.May 2012. Although many respondents indicated they were unhappy with
:02:17. > :02:21.the assessment and the data on which it was based, the final EQ YJ
:02:21. > :02:28.remained unaltered. The Department for Social Department --
:02:28. > :02:32.development has acknowledged data deficits and proposes it should be
:02:32. > :02:37.a living document. The committee shoot -- has been made aware of the
:02:37. > :02:41.human rights implications at a more severe level of sanctions proposed
:02:41. > :02:46.under the Welfare Reform Bill. Members were concerned that
:02:46. > :02:50.sanctions should not be overly punitive or disproportionate
:02:50. > :02:57.resulting in extreme hardship or destitution for some fun rebel
:02:57. > :03:02.claimants. According to the committee, it has said that any
:03:02. > :03:07.sanctions imposed should be mitigated to avoid the potential
:03:07. > :03:12.for extreme hardship of children and lone parents or Tamas Fellegi
:03:12. > :03:19.those with mental health issues. The committee is supportive of the
:03:19. > :03:24.individual responsibility and encouraged people into work. The
:03:24. > :03:27.new benefit that will replace benefits is working credit. There
:03:27. > :03:32.were a number of anomalies highlighted to the committee and
:03:32. > :03:36.the administration of this benefit. For example, the situation where a
:03:36. > :03:41.claimant who was working no more than a few hours a week, in fact I
:03:41. > :03:45.believe no more than one hour a week, will lose 100% of their help
:03:46. > :03:50.with mortgage interest. This is a disincentive to work and runs
:03:50. > :03:57.contrary to the rationale of the bill which is to encourage people
:03:57. > :04:00.to come off benefits and seek work. I believe this report has examined
:04:00. > :04:03.comprehensively the equality and human rights implications of the
:04:03. > :04:08.welfare reform bill that we are in the process of implementing. I
:04:08. > :04:13.would want to see a system that is accessible to all in a manner which
:04:13. > :04:16.is easily understood and quick to complete. I want a system in which
:04:16. > :04:21.people are not stigmatised for needing to access but that people
:04:21. > :04:25.realise the system is a safety net and not as I have stated earlier in
:04:25. > :04:29.the debate yesterday a viable career option. The fact is that not
:04:29. > :04:35.everybody is going to be happy with the outcomes of welfare reform but
:04:35. > :04:38.we strive to ensure that no one within our society is disadvantaged.
:04:38. > :04:43.The Human Rights Commission said the commission notes the department
:04:43. > :04:49.has not carried out a full EQ YJ in respect to race, religion and
:04:49. > :04:56.sexual orientation. The equality commission criticised almost every
:04:56. > :05:00.aspect of the Department's EQ I say. The failure to identify adverse
:05:00. > :05:05.impacts, the lack of mitigation to address obligations under section
:05:05. > :05:09.75, the Department's decision not undertake impact assessments and
:05:09. > :05:13.run a -- relation to religion, sexual orientation and race. The
:05:13. > :05:18.only people that tell us the bill is complied is the minister, his
:05:18. > :05:22.department and political representatives. And when it was
:05:22. > :05:26.exposed as less thorough and reliant on opinion rather than
:05:26. > :05:32.evidence, they introduce the notion of a living document as if like
:05:32. > :05:37.fine wine, it would improve miraculously with age. This is not
:05:37. > :05:43.good enough. The minister and his department have been too quick to
:05:43. > :05:53.accept the operation authority as no more than exercise in rubber-
:05:53. > :05:57.
:05:57. > :06:01.stamping Westminster legislation. number of all -- examples have been
:06:01. > :06:07.underlined with concerns. And we have concerns. We have reported in
:06:07. > :06:11.several places there are concerns. I tell you, Mr Speaker, when I
:06:11. > :06:15.asked the groups that came before us and one in particular, the most
:06:15. > :06:21.vociferous group, could they point this to anything specific, anything
:06:21. > :06:28.specific that breached human rights issues, they couldn't. There are
:06:28. > :06:33.concerns. We have done that, but once you asked them where are the
:06:33. > :06:39.specifics, they couldn't do that. I want to thank the groups that came
:06:39. > :06:45.into the committee and the groups that wrote into the committee. It
:06:45. > :06:54.is very unfortunate that the one organ of the Executive that is
:06:54. > :06:57.supposed to look after equality issues didn't see fit to respond
:06:57. > :07:04.adequately to the Adhoc committee. The only response they gave us was
:07:04. > :07:09.a letter to say they wouldn't be respond in. It was one that was
:07:09. > :07:15.thrown at the committee and it was one that I think was to all intents
:07:15. > :07:24.and purposes a waste of time. There is no other way to save it. It is
:07:24. > :07:27.not the chairman's fault or the staff fold. What we were doing was
:07:27. > :07:32.repetition of what the DST committee were doing. There is not
:07:32. > :07:39.a doubt that in fact that committee would have and could have and
:07:39. > :07:43.should have been allowed to get on with their job and I see it as
:07:43. > :07:51.meddling and interfering in the task that was consigned to them.
:07:51. > :07:57.The concern of the impact to those with disability has not been
:07:57. > :08:02.assessed. The view that it is 0 living document is remarkable. This
:08:02. > :08:07.Assembly will be asked to pass massively important legislation
:08:07. > :08:15.without even having quantified its adverse impact on our citizens. The
:08:15. > :08:20.lack of a fall analysis of the impact on this region means this
:08:20. > :08:26.Assembly will effectively walk into welfare reform with its eyes shut.
:08:26. > :08:33.Just to pick up on Katrina Allen who excelled herself today, big on
:08:33. > :08:41.rhetoric, low on content. She has disappeared again. It sounded to me
:08:41. > :08:45.like an extract from some revolutionary Marxist magazine. I
:08:45. > :08:52.have difficulty taking it seriously and I was disappointed that she
:08:52. > :08:56.went down this road of those awful people in the chamber. Those awful
:08:56. > :08:58.Unionists, those people are the only people with compassion.
:08:58. > :09:01.The Social Development Minister, Nelson McCausland.
:09:01. > :09:07.Listening to that, two members of that ad hoc Committee. Its chair,
:09:07. > :09:12.Trevor Lunn from Alliance, and Paula Bradley from the DUP. Welcome
:09:12. > :09:14.to you both. Trevor Lunn, we heard a flavour there of some of the
:09:14. > :09:17.concerns the committee had about the equality and human rights
:09:17. > :09:19.implications of the Welfare Bill. What do you think are the most
:09:19. > :09:27.pertinent issues the Social Development Minister needs to
:09:27. > :09:32.address? The equality impact assessment was a big issue for us.
:09:32. > :09:35.There is no doubt it is not a complete document and they are not.
:09:35. > :09:43.It was described as a living document which has to be updated
:09:43. > :09:50.from time to time. Does it make sense? It does. It is ongoing. It
:09:50. > :10:00.can be updated as time goes on. The major issue was that we were able
:10:00. > :10:01.
:10:01. > :10:05.to look at the Bill before us. If there is trouble, it will be to do
:10:05. > :10:09.with the regulations that followed. This is an enabling bill and the
:10:09. > :10:15.real teeth will be in the regulation, so it is important they
:10:15. > :10:18.are scrutinised as well. One of the main recommendations is the
:10:18. > :10:22.sanctions which will be imposed on welfare recipients if they step out
:10:22. > :10:29.of line. When these changes happen, what would you like to see in place
:10:29. > :10:33.to mitigate those sanctions so that the most vulnerable are protected?
:10:33. > :10:42.Well, the sanctions you referred to are those that would place people
:10:42. > :10:49.into desperate need or destitution. That should not be too difficult to
:10:49. > :10:55.provide a baseline below which people cannot go. I heard certain
:10:55. > :10:58.members through the debate saying, and the minister refer to it, that
:10:59. > :11:07.only one side of the house cared about these people but that is not
:11:07. > :11:12.true. Isn't deliberations were very intense and concentrated. We were
:11:12. > :11:16.aware everybody had concerns. We were trying to identify actual
:11:16. > :11:22.breaches in terms of human rights and equality. And we couldn't find
:11:22. > :11:25.any. Paula Bradley, we heard your party
:11:25. > :11:33.colleague Lord Morrow describe the committee as a waste of time. Do
:11:33. > :11:37.you agree? I personally did not find it a waste of time but that is
:11:37. > :11:43.maybe because I sit on the Social Development Committee and I find
:11:43. > :11:52.clarity in many issues. If you asked me if I found the committee a
:11:52. > :11:56.necessary, absolutely. But not a waste of time? Not for me. But what
:11:56. > :12:01.about the safe guards, the need for the most vulnerable not to fall
:12:01. > :12:07.through the net. Do you think that framework can be put in place?
:12:07. > :12:13.agree that we have a duty of care to protect the most vulnerable
:12:14. > :12:17.within our Society and I said that I highlighted lone parents and
:12:17. > :12:21.accessible childcare, so I believe we have to put certain
:12:21. > :12:27.recommendations in place to protect those people. He also said today
:12:27. > :12:30.that welfare should not be seen a fight -- as a viable career option.
:12:30. > :12:34.Do you think there are people, for example, in your constituency who
:12:34. > :12:36.do see it that way and how, in your view, will this bill tackle that?
:12:37. > :12:41.It is something we have to tackle. On a personal level, I would like
:12:41. > :12:49.to think that is not how people see it, that they do not see that the
:12:49. > :12:54.benefits system is a viable option. But they need to be put right?
:12:54. > :12:58.That's right. There are people fulcrum there is no alternative.
:12:58. > :13:01.For the rest of their lives that will be dependent on this benefit.
:13:01. > :13:05.They might be a bit depressed listening to what you have to say
:13:05. > :13:11.because they've got no alternative. We still have to protect those
:13:11. > :13:16.people. I assume you're talking about people with disablement and
:13:16. > :13:20.welfare reform is there to provide for those people. Some of those
:13:20. > :13:23.people are a little bit concerned that while that might be the
:13:23. > :13:28.intention, that might not happen in practice. There are lots of
:13:28. > :13:32.concerns and lots of fears. Some of those fears have been alleviated
:13:32. > :13:36.and it is up to us to go through this book and make the
:13:36. > :13:42.recommendations but make welfare reform work for those people.
:13:42. > :13:47.that final -- thought, a job well done? I was satisfied with the
:13:47. > :13:51.committee. There was an argument that the committee, the DST
:13:51. > :13:55.committee, could have done this. It was the first time Stormont has had
:13:55. > :13:59.an Adhoc committee set up for specific purposes like that. It was
:13:59. > :14:09.a good decision? It was a worthwhile decision. It may have to
:14:09. > :14:14.
:14:14. > :14:21.happen again. Maybe a standing Now we are a low tax committee,
:14:21. > :14:24.that's the comments of Sammy Wilson. Mr Wilson batted any criticism from
:14:24. > :14:29.fellow fellow Unionists who claim they get nothing from peace funding.
:14:29. > :14:33.I am sure the minister heard, as I have complaints within the
:14:33. > :14:37.Protestant community that it doesn't receive its fair share of
:14:37. > :14:43.peace funding. Can the minister give a view on this, but also if he
:14:43. > :14:49.has the figures, provide us with the precise percentage that the
:14:49. > :14:54.Protestant community get with peace funding for its projects? Well, if
:14:54. > :15:00.one looks at the various peace programmes that there have been one,
:15:00. > :15:04.peace one, peace two, and peace three, the maximum that has has
:15:04. > :15:08.been - I should the figures somewhere - the maximum which has
:15:08. > :15:17.been drawn down by groups which come from the Unionist community
:15:17. > :15:22.was was 47%. In In peace one, there was 44% uptake by groups from the
:15:22. > :15:27.Protestant community. In peace two, it was 47% and although we are not
:15:27. > :15:32.at the end of peace three, it is standing at at 46% and it is
:15:32. > :15:37.something which concerned me and something which I have been saying.
:15:37. > :15:44.You have to address and there has been considerable effort, I can say
:15:44. > :15:48.this, I'm critical, but there has been considerable effort in trying
:15:48. > :15:51.to get applications from the Unionist community and to work with
:15:51. > :15:55.groups within the Unionist community. Groups where there is
:15:55. > :16:01.areas where there is little capacity. Groups such as the Orange
:16:01. > :16:06.Order, the various police organisations and I have got to say,
:16:06. > :16:12.Mr Deputy Speaker, it does annoy me sometimes at the ill informed
:16:12. > :16:18.comment that comes from people who seek to agitate when I hear, "We
:16:18. > :16:22.get nothing." Let's just look at some of the money which has gone.
:16:22. > :16:27.East Belfast, where some of this agitation has come interest. A
:16:27. > :16:34.project there, a magnificent regeneration project, �6 million as
:16:34. > :16:40.a result of money from peace three. The grand Orange Lodge for stepping
:16:40. > :16:47.towards positive engagement has got nearly �1 million. The Grand Orange
:16:47. > :16:51.Lodge, �3.6 million. The apprentice boys, �2 million. All of these
:16:51. > :16:55.things going to Unionist orientated groups and I wish some of those
:16:55. > :16:59.people who complain we get nothing would actually look at the facts.
:16:59. > :17:04.When some members opposite talk about revenue raising powers, what
:17:04. > :17:09.they are meaning is tax increases for hard-pressed businesses and
:17:09. > :17:14.households across the Profferens and -- Province and that's not the
:17:14. > :17:19.direction in which the Executive should be going and many of the
:17:19. > :17:24.areas identified would come at a huge cost to the block grant?
:17:24. > :17:31.I have made my position clear in the House and that's that I do not
:17:31. > :17:34.believe we ought to be taking money from the public if there are ways
:17:34. > :17:40.of making savings within the public sector that we have got charge of
:17:40. > :17:45.at the moment. And for that reason, of course, we have frozen in real
:17:45. > :17:49.terms rates this Northern Ireland - - in Northern Ireland and they were
:17:49. > :17:54.frozen during the last period. I hear these things about the
:17:54. > :17:58.assembly and taxes and everything else. We have got a very good
:17:58. > :18:03.record, the best record, of anywhere in the United Kingdom of
:18:03. > :18:07.where we have tax raising powers we have not exercised them to the
:18:07. > :18:12.detriment of people in the middle of a recession and we ought to be
:18:12. > :18:16.proud of that and it is something that those who continually complain
:18:16. > :18:22.about the performance of this assembly ought to bear in mind. We
:18:22. > :18:27.are a low tax assembly and that's the way I want to keep it.
:18:27. > :18:31.We have an arrangement from place where any contract, construction
:18:31. > :18:36.contract, which is worth more than �1 million and in which there is a
:18:37. > :18:45.substantial amount of sub contracting in the contract and
:18:45. > :18:49.providing it is actually one which is overseen by CPD, we are going to
:18:49. > :18:53.encourage others to use the same projects. Once the money - the
:18:53. > :18:59.money will go into the pro jet account -- project account and as a
:18:59. > :19:03.result of the money going in, within five days of the money being
:19:03. > :19:06.deposited. The sub contractors should be paid from that. So no
:19:06. > :19:11.longer will the money go to the main contractor who may decide to
:19:11. > :19:16.use it as working capital and hold back and hold back and pay the sub
:19:16. > :19:20.contractors at their leisure and I believe this will be an important
:19:20. > :19:27.development for helping sub contractors. It only applies to
:19:27. > :19:30.those contracts which are put out by CPD. They have to be
:19:30. > :19:36.construction contracts. They have to have a substantial number of sub
:19:36. > :19:41.contractors in them and they have to be over �1 million.
:19:41. > :19:43.The Finance Minister, Sammy Wilson. One-third of students who go to
:19:43. > :19:47.university across the water return to work in Northern Ireland. That's
:19:47. > :19:51.what the Employment Minister told the assembly today. Stephen Farry
:19:51. > :20:01.was asked what his department is doing to attract more graduates to
:20:01. > :20:02.
:20:02. > :20:05.come home? In the 2011 lsh/12 academic, one-third of academics
:20:05. > :20:08.left this region to study at a higher education institution in
:20:08. > :20:13.Great Britain. That in the main, those who opt for a university
:20:13. > :20:18.place in Great Britain do so upon choice. The most important reason
:20:18. > :20:21.cited was the student considered a particular institution as being the
:20:21. > :20:26.best placed to undertake their course. Issues of location were
:20:26. > :20:30.also important to the respondants. In that respect, a large number of
:20:30. > :20:36.these students are determined leavers. Data on those who return
:20:36. > :20:41.can be sourced from the higher education destination Surrey. This
:20:41. > :20:47.survey -- survey. This survey survey shows over one-third of
:20:47. > :20:50.people who go away to study return for work. 39% of Northern Ireland
:20:50. > :20:55.domiciled full-time leavers from from higher education who studied
:20:55. > :20:58.in Great Britain and were in employment six months after
:20:58. > :21:03.graduation returned to Northern Ireland for work.
:21:03. > :21:06.I am sure the the minister will agree we want our most talented
:21:06. > :21:09.people to come back to Northern Ireland and the best way to do that
:21:09. > :21:12.is having the graduate opportunities here and I know he
:21:12. > :21:16.and other executive ministers are working hard to ensure those
:21:16. > :21:21.opportunities exist. Can the minister outline the type of work
:21:21. > :21:24.that his department do in going across to universities in Great
:21:24. > :21:28.Britain and participating in jobs fairs or employment seminars to
:21:28. > :21:32.encourage those graduates from Northern Ireland to return home and
:21:32. > :21:36.seek to find employment back in Northern Ireland? There is a number
:21:36. > :21:42.of issues that Mr Ross identifies there that we need to be minuteful
:21:42. > :21:45.of. First of all, the effect of the executive's decision to freeze
:21:45. > :21:49.tuition fees in Northern Ireland has been helpful in terms of
:21:49. > :21:52.encouraging our students to stay in Northern Ireland. And if they stay
:21:52. > :21:56.in Northern Ireland, they are more likely to build their career here
:21:56. > :22:00.as well. We have sought to expand the number of under graduate places
:22:00. > :22:08.in Northern Ireland and we have had the biggest rise in provision in
:22:09. > :22:12.over a decade. All of those are in stem subjects. Could the minister
:22:12. > :22:16.indicate how the pupils and students that go to Great Britain
:22:16. > :22:22.to take part in degree courses fair compared with those that stay at
:22:22. > :22:26.home both in terms of completing degrees and passing one?
:22:26. > :22:32.We will come back to the member with the specific figures in that
:22:32. > :22:37.regard. But it is worth stressing that the universe in Northern
:22:37. > :22:40.Ireland have high retention rates. Overall, higher education in
:22:40. > :22:44.Northern Ireland does compare favourably to higher education
:22:45. > :22:48.elsewhere in the world in terms of retention as well. For different
:22:48. > :22:51.reasons. If you look at somewhere like the United States, they have
:22:51. > :22:56.low graduation rates because a lot of people drop out sometimes for
:22:56. > :23:01.economic reasons. If you look at the Continental European model,
:23:01. > :23:04.they tend to have a very flexible approach to entry where large
:23:04. > :23:08.numbers of people will be enrolled and a lot of people drop out
:23:08. > :23:12.whenever they discover the courses aren't for them. So the approach we
:23:12. > :23:16.take within these islands is probably the best balance between
:23:16. > :23:23.those different extremes, but I am more than happy to give the member
:23:23. > :23:30.the detailed figures. Stephen farry. In a report last
:23:30. > :23:36.October, the Prison Ombudsman criticised the Prison Service for
:23:36. > :23:40.failing to investigate the death of a young man who took his own life
:23:40. > :23:50.at Hydebank Young Offenders' Centre. Last week the ombudsman discussed
:23:50. > :23:50.
:23:50. > :23:53.the case at the Justice Committee. On two occasions Samuel shef harmed.
:23:53. > :23:58.He was -- self harmed. He was physically assaulted twice
:23:58. > :24:03.seriously and in July 2010, Samuel was briefly kept in the healthcare
:24:03. > :24:07.centre for what was described as respite from the bullying that he
:24:07. > :24:12.reported was occurring on his landing. The investigation
:24:12. > :24:16.identified that firstly numerous recorded instainss of Samuel being
:24:16. > :24:22.subjected to at times serious verbal abuse and threats were not
:24:22. > :24:25.investigated and did not lead to any action being taken. Numerous
:24:25. > :24:29.allegations of bullying and noted instances of bullying were not
:24:29. > :24:32.contrary to Prison Service anti- bullying policy. A security
:24:32. > :24:36.information report was not completed and required referrals
:24:36. > :24:42.were not made to the anti-bullying co-ordinator.
:24:42. > :24:46.Bullying investigations did not take place or abandoned when Samuel
:24:46. > :24:49.withdrew allegations even though it was known to staff that the
:24:49. > :24:56.withdrawal was due to Samuel's concern that he would be subjected
:24:56. > :25:00.to more severe bullying. Samuel was seriously assaulted on the 9 9th
:25:00. > :25:08.October 2010 by inmates he told staff a number of times that were
:25:08. > :25:10.bullying him. Staff seemed reluctant to raise bullying
:25:10. > :25:14.incidents reports. Investigations into bullying and resulting action
:25:14. > :25:19.were not effective. On a number of occasions there was no evidence
:25:19. > :25:25.that recommended action was implemented by the anti-bullying
:25:25. > :25:30.co-ordinator or by other staff. On 7th March Samuel was kicked and
:25:30. > :25:33.punched by by two inmates. He was taken to hospital when he started
:25:33. > :25:37.to cough up blood. The security staff and some prison staff
:25:37. > :25:43.appeared to regard the bullying of alleged or committed sex offenders
:25:43. > :25:46.as inevitable. A number of concerns were identified in connection with
:25:46. > :25:52.Samuel's healthcare. It was found no mental health assessment took
:25:52. > :25:57.place between August 2010 and Samuel's death in May 2011. It is
:25:57. > :26:01.to note that there was evidence that Samuel's overall wellbeing was
:26:01. > :26:05.significantly affected by the fact that because of paramilitary
:26:05. > :26:11.threats connected with the nature of his charges, his repeated
:26:11. > :26:15.attempts to find a bail address failed.
:26:15. > :26:18.I notice items going missing and records not being kept and the sort
:26:18. > :26:23.of things that you would anticipate to be happening as a matter of
:26:23. > :26:29.course, not being done. Are you aware of any disciplinary follow-
:26:29. > :26:34.ups as a result what was negligent behaviour? I am not. It is fair to
:26:34. > :26:37.say that we were satisfied, we didn't believe there was anything
:26:37. > :26:44.sinister. We think this was an efficiency issue in terms of the
:26:44. > :26:46.information being lost. I agree it is not acceptable, but it is
:26:46. > :26:51.exceptional that we have a problem getting information. It is better
:26:51. > :26:59.than it used to be and generally speaking the efforts that are made
:26:59. > :27:04.around record keeping have improved and generally don't create problems.
:27:04. > :27:10.Trevor Lunn is still with me. There was a lot of discussion last week
:27:10. > :27:15.about the leaked draft document. Your party removed itself from that
:27:15. > :27:18.process and now you have published your own proposals about a shared
:27:18. > :27:23.future. There is there has been criticism about your plans for
:27:23. > :27:29.shared education, that target for integrated education. 20% by 2010.
:27:29. > :27:33.Is that deliverable? If you look at it the other way around, Mark, if
:27:33. > :27:37.the facilities were there so that everybody who wanted integrated
:27:37. > :27:41.education to be facilitated, we would achieve that target in no
:27:41. > :27:43.time. There is clearly a public demand for children to be
:27:43. > :27:48.integrated in school, to be educated together.
:27:48. > :27:53.Is there a great demand for it? I saw a representative of the
:27:53. > :27:57.Catholic education system today today saying there is over capacity
:27:57. > :28:00.within the integrated system. Not all integrated schools are fully
:28:00. > :28:04.subscribed. Do that and you might be able to make the argument that
:28:04. > :28:12.more places are needed, but when there are empty desks already, it
:28:12. > :28:20.is hard to make the case? percentage of of empty sector and
:28:20. > :28:25.the Catholic maintained sector is higher. In the integrated, it is
:28:25. > :28:28.about 5%. You are talking about 80,000 empty desks. In a way that's
:28:28. > :28:35.a different issue. We are talking about bringing children together.
:28:35. > :28:40.There is lots of good reasons why they should be educated together.
:28:40. > :28:45.The plans leaked in draft form last week. Can they come together where
:28:45. > :28:49.people can have a better shared future? Well, we pro produced our
:28:49. > :28:54.plans because the other process appeared to be going nowhere. We
:28:54. > :29:00.stuck with it for a long time and we did our best.