:00:26. > :00:31.It was a red letter day on the hill as John McCallister's crusade
:00:32. > :00:33.to formalise arrangements for an Assembly opposition passed
:00:34. > :00:37.And there was a promise from the Deputy First Minister
:00:38. > :00:43.It's been a long journey, but John McCallister has rewritten
:00:44. > :01:22.And joining me with his thoughts on today's business is our
:01:23. > :01:30.political correspondent, Gareth Gordon.
:01:31. > :01:36.At times it appeared to be an almost impossible task as John McCallister
:01:37. > :01:38.laboured to create the legislation needed for an opposition
:01:39. > :01:43.But today his Bill passed its final stage and it now proceeds
:01:44. > :01:45.to Westminster to receive Royal Assent before the end
:01:46. > :01:49.What makes it on to the statute books may not be quite what he set
:01:50. > :01:51.out to deliver, but the South Down MLA
:01:52. > :01:55.still believes his Private Members' Bill will improve how
:01:56. > :02:12.We've had 15 hours of debate and consideration stage lasted over nine
:02:13. > :02:21.and a half hours over two days. 52 votes at committee, on different
:02:22. > :02:26.clauses, 20 divisions and considerations using another five
:02:27. > :02:30.considerations. It gives you a place called opposition. Opposition gives
:02:31. > :02:45.our elected the chance to change the Government. I think on the whole as
:02:46. > :02:50.the Bill has emerged, I'm very, very pleased with what has come out at
:02:51. > :02:55.the other end of so many hours of debate and scrutiny. I think it's
:02:56. > :03:01.fair to say this Bill has evolved considerably from the Bill that was
:03:02. > :03:03.introduced and scrutinised by the Assembly and the executive
:03:04. > :03:09.committee. Key provisions such as the formation of the opposition by
:03:10. > :03:13.technical groups, establishment of a budget committee, renaming of the
:03:14. > :03:18.office of the first and Deputy First Minister and the proposal for
:03:19. > :03:25.departments to be a single legal entity have now been removed. Given
:03:26. > :03:29.that sentiment and the SDLP, consistent with the democratic
:03:30. > :03:33.structures endorsed by the people of Ireland on the good Friday
:03:34. > :03:39.agreement, we recognise that creating a place called opposition,
:03:40. > :03:44.or a place for more formal dissent in this chamber is healthy for our
:03:45. > :03:48.democracy. We remain totally convinced of the need and necessity
:03:49. > :03:59.of opposition structures to be put in place. The reasons Assembly was
:04:00. > :04:03.structured has been acknowledged in all stages of debate, but I think we
:04:04. > :04:09.should all aspire to improve what we are doing and move in time with our
:04:10. > :04:14.ever evolving society. But it is clear from the increasing disconnect
:04:15. > :04:22.that we are failing to do so when it comes to the structures of this
:04:23. > :04:26.chamber. I know this Bill has been well read since its inception, but
:04:27. > :04:31.as the sponsor himself said, the opposition part of it is largely
:04:32. > :04:36.intact and perhaps most important part of the Bill, perhaps the bit he
:04:37. > :04:41.would have selected if all else had to fail. It is also, there've been
:04:42. > :04:48.times in the passage of this Bill where I didn't expect it to go any
:04:49. > :04:53.further, because we had the unedifying spectacle of Sinn Fein
:04:54. > :04:58.voting against every clause of the committee, and the DUP weren't
:04:59. > :05:02.helping by abstaining. The party that in the Assembly during the
:05:03. > :05:11.course of Mr John McAllister's Bill has done most to try and derail it,
:05:12. > :05:16.namely Sinn Fein, that after their failure to attain their ambitions in
:05:17. > :05:22.the southern election, and falling significantly short of what they
:05:23. > :05:28.hoped to attain, that the height of their ambition now in the Irish
:05:29. > :05:36.Republic is to form the opposition. And yet in this House on every vote
:05:37. > :05:41.on this Bill they've sought to deny even the right to have an
:05:42. > :05:48.opposition. Because I think we had an opportunity to really improve
:05:49. > :05:54.governance in Northern Ireland. I believe it's an opportunity wasted.
:05:55. > :05:59.We wasted the opportunity to abolish Petition of Concern. We wasted the
:06:00. > :06:04.opportunity to abolish community designation. We wasted the
:06:05. > :06:08.opportunity to introduce collective responsibility. And we wasted the
:06:09. > :06:11.opportunity to introduce a mechanism by which we can hold Ministers to
:06:12. > :06:14.account. And the final stage
:06:15. > :06:17.of the Opposition Bill passed by 63 So, John McCallister's Bill has made
:06:18. > :06:28.it through the Stormont maze. It's a bittersweet moment for John
:06:29. > :06:32.McAllister. Many said he would never get past the final stage, but he has
:06:33. > :06:37.done so. That's a little victory in itself. It means that anyone after
:06:38. > :06:39.May in the Assembly election who wants to go into opposition, the
:06:40. > :06:43.bigger parties, the mechanism is there to do so. They'll be funded
:06:44. > :06:47.and they'll have enhanced speaking rights. But no guarantee that any
:06:48. > :06:51.parties will at this moment take the opportunity up. It is not the Bill,
:06:52. > :06:58.however, that John McAllister envisaged when he set out on this
:06:59. > :07:08.long road. For example he wanted to end the community designations. That
:07:09. > :07:12.is not happening. Sinn Fein and the SDLP blocked that with the Petition
:07:13. > :07:17.of Concern. They said it was too much like majority rule. The DUP
:07:18. > :07:22.blocked the plan to rename the office of the first and deputy
:07:23. > :07:26.Minister to the office of the First Ministers. It is not what he want.
:07:27. > :07:30.But he says it is a worthwhile exercise. It is an achievement
:07:31. > :07:35.achievement to get a Private Member's Bill through. It hasn't
:07:36. > :07:39.happened too often. Sinn Fein voted against. How significant a piece of
:07:40. > :07:45.legislation do you think it is, because it did go through today with
:07:46. > :07:48.a significant majority. Well, I think potentially it opens the gates
:07:49. > :07:55.and makes people think more about it. Whether or not as I said in my
:07:56. > :08:00.first answer min will take up this offer at the moment is open, and
:08:01. > :08:04.unless they do it sits on the statute books and doesn't mean a
:08:05. > :08:08.lot, I suppose. We'll find out early in May when we come back with a new
:08:09. > :08:12.mandate. The Deputy First Minister told MLAs
:08:13. > :08:15.that he would be "absolutely willing" to appear at a commission
:08:16. > :08:17.designed to provide information to relatives of those killed
:08:18. > :08:19.in the Troubles. Plans for an Independent Commission
:08:20. > :08:22.on Information Retrieval were set out in the Stormont House Agreement,
:08:23. > :08:24.and today Jim Allister asked Martin McGuinness if he'll take
:08:25. > :08:33.part in the process. Does the Deputy First Minister
:08:34. > :08:37.intend by way as example to other IRA men to provide information the
:08:38. > :08:47.information retrieval commission when it's established? Well, that
:08:48. > :08:52.brings us back again to the negotiations that we participated in
:08:53. > :08:59.prior to Christmas, and the huge progress that was made. There isn't
:09:00. > :09:04.much point in establishing an organisation like the ICAR or the
:09:05. > :09:10.other organisations that we agreed in terms of the structures if we are
:09:11. > :09:16.not going encourage people to participate to ensure that families
:09:17. > :09:21.who've been victims of the conflict can get some resolution to I suppose
:09:22. > :09:29.the information that they are seeking. If that's so perhaps the
:09:30. > :09:36.Deputy First Minister would answer the question: Will he as an officer
:09:37. > :09:40.commanding in the IRA lead by example and give information, to the
:09:41. > :09:47.information retrieval commission if it is to afford any hope to the many
:09:48. > :09:52.innocent victims of his IRA? Well, I think that on a number of occasions
:09:53. > :09:59.in the past I've made it clear first of all that Sinn Fein policy was to
:10:00. > :10:02.argue for the establishment of an independent international Truth
:10:03. > :10:07.Commission. And obviously we didn't achieve, that but what we have done
:10:08. > :10:12.is compromised in terms of the structures and mechanisms that we
:10:13. > :10:15.agreed prior to Christmas. I further make the point there isn't much
:10:16. > :10:20.point in establishing those if people aren't prepared to go
:10:21. > :10:26.forward. If I am required to go forward, on any point of relevance
:10:27. > :10:35.to myself, I am absolutely willing to do that. The Deputy First
:10:36. > :10:39.Minister refers to detrimental first contributions... Are will he agree
:10:40. > :10:45.that's always been the case? And every time I have indicated to him
:10:46. > :10:50.about his involvement in the past in paramilitary groups that was equally
:10:51. > :10:54.detriment, it doesn't hold much water when he denies knowledge of
:10:55. > :11:04.every single incident mentioned to him, which leaves people to the
:11:05. > :11:05.conclusion that he was the most overpromoted person in
:11:06. > :11:11.paramilitary... In the history of the world? Isn't it just as well for
:11:12. > :11:17.all of the people out there that we represent that I am not as bitter as
:11:18. > :11:22.the member who has just spoken? I spent a year in the office of first
:11:23. > :11:26.and Deputy First Minister with Ian Paisley during which time we built
:11:27. > :11:33.up not just a good working relationship but a friendship which
:11:34. > :11:38.lasted until the day he died. We had many conversations about many
:11:39. > :11:44.things. I know the member held Reverend Ian Paisley in high rafrmtd
:11:45. > :11:50.never once did we recriminate about anyone, not once, and the 8 years I
:11:51. > :11:54.worked with Peter Robinson. All we were interested in was making this
:11:55. > :12:00.place work, making the executive work, delivering for our people,
:12:01. > :12:05.getting jobs, and starting against against the activities of those who
:12:06. > :12:11.would plunge us back into the past. It is a pity we still have maul
:12:12. > :12:16.minded MLAs in this Assembly and one of them has just spoken and another
:12:17. > :12:21.one spoke just a very short time ago. Fortunately for all of us in
:12:22. > :12:23.the Assembly the vast majority of people are not like that.
:12:24. > :12:25.The Deputy First Minister in combative form.
:12:26. > :12:38.Was in comphebt from Mr McGuinness a complete surprise? It is not what he
:12:39. > :12:45.set out to say, but he has had many questions in the past from John
:12:46. > :12:53.McAllister and Mr Campbell about his past. He told the Bloody Sunday
:12:54. > :13:03.inquiry he had for a time been the IRA's number two. But to put into it
:13:04. > :13:10.context we should say that plans for an independent commission on
:13:11. > :13:16.information retrieval, to agree other aspects of legacy of the
:13:17. > :13:22.Troubles. John McAllister said, if it is set up would he be prepared to
:13:23. > :13:25.give details about his IRA past? Martin McGuinness can hardly say no
:13:26. > :13:31.if he wants other people to do the same thing. He says, if I'm required
:13:32. > :13:35.to go forward on any point of relevance to myself, I'm absolutely
:13:36. > :13:37.willing to do that. There is no such commission and there may never be
:13:38. > :13:43.one. Gareth, thank you. And just 36 hours after
:13:44. > :13:45.Carl Frampton won in the boxing ring, it was no surprise
:13:46. > :13:48.that his name was mentioned a time or two during questions
:13:49. > :13:50.to the Culture, Arts and Leisure But first Caral Ni Chuilin had
:13:51. > :13:54.to answer questions about the cost of repairs to the MAC
:13:55. > :14:07.arts venue in Belfast. The total cast of repairs was
:14:08. > :14:12.estimated at ?938,000. Almost a million pounds. This figure includes
:14:13. > :14:15.the repressed and of the stone facade and pipework as well as
:14:16. > :14:20.management and supervision of the works which include professional and
:14:21. > :14:26.legal fees. It is regrettable that almost ?1 million of public money is
:14:27. > :14:31.being spent to not only carry out repairs, but to cover some of the
:14:32. > :14:36.outstanding work which is health and safety related. I can assure the
:14:37. > :14:40.member of this house that I will, my department, through the arts
:14:41. > :14:46.Council, will pursue full recovery of this money. I believe it is an
:14:47. > :14:51.important building. Many people have gone through the door. It has raised
:14:52. > :14:55.a lot of concern considering the amount of money spent from the
:14:56. > :14:59.public purse. Can the Minister provide an update
:15:00. > :15:05.on the legal situation with reference to the repairs.
:15:06. > :15:09.They have had an extra day. The reports, when they are in front of
:15:10. > :15:14.me, will go to the committee. I will ensure that they are copied to the
:15:15. > :15:19.member for information. It is unfortunate that given the amount of
:15:20. > :15:25.money spent on the building, when I invested additional money from the
:15:26. > :15:29.public purse. They are repairing a building that shouldn't need so many
:15:30. > :15:34.repairs given that it is quite a young building.
:15:35. > :15:37.Given the great victory on Saturday night, what plans are they to host a
:15:38. > :15:43.reception for him in Parliament Buildings on his return.
:15:44. > :15:48.We have had receptions for athletes who have achieved a lot in the past.
:15:49. > :15:56.We are certainly planning to do that on the 9th of March in Enniskillen.
:15:57. > :16:01.We will look at the achievements of all athletes competing at different
:16:02. > :16:04.levels. I would hope that not just Carl Frampton but all the other
:16:05. > :16:07.athletes who performed on Saturday are more than welcome to that as
:16:08. > :16:12.well. He has said he would love to have a
:16:13. > :16:17.fight in Windsor Park, in terms of Belfast. What would you, and your
:16:18. > :16:21.parliament, given that we have the champion here in your own
:16:22. > :16:29.constituency, what are you going to do in terms of yours Department to
:16:30. > :16:34.support him? I'm not a boxing promoter. It is up to promoters to
:16:35. > :16:42.come forward with opportunities not just for Carl Frampton but for other
:16:43. > :16:49.boxes as well. We have met with many boxers, professional boxers in the
:16:50. > :16:54.past. Worthy opportunities to create a spectacle for us to enjoy we would
:16:55. > :16:58.be trying to have. Whilst we are all engrossed in
:16:59. > :17:07.watching Carl Frampton on Saturday night when his boat was going on,
:17:08. > :17:12.and another boxer became the band term weight champion in mixed
:17:13. > :17:18.martial arts. What support can the minister give mixed martial arts. It
:17:19. > :17:22.is a growing sport in this country? I will go on very quickly and three
:17:23. > :17:32.I think we need to do more. I follow the work of many people in this
:17:33. > :17:35.field. I believe that the work these teams do is absolutely brilliant,
:17:36. > :17:41.particularly working with children and young people who are hard to
:17:42. > :17:45.reach. We are showing them they can compete on a world stage. We
:17:46. > :17:51.Time is up. That is the end of question Time. Congratulations,
:17:52. > :17:52.Minister on completing your mandate. Congratulations, Minister
:17:53. > :17:53.on completing your mandate. The Speaker congratulating Caral ni
:17:54. > :17:56.Chuilin on her final appearance Another piece of legislation
:17:57. > :17:59.reached its final stage today, It will enable credit unions
:18:00. > :18:03.to offer shares which entitle holders to interest rather
:18:04. > :18:05.than a dividend and allow them to offer membership to groups
:18:06. > :18:18.as well as individuals. The passage of this bill represents
:18:19. > :18:27.the culmination of almost eight years of work. It enables credit
:18:28. > :18:31.unions to expand their range of services and offer the same
:18:32. > :18:35.facilities that their counterparts in GB and South America have been
:18:36. > :18:41.able to offer since 2000 and 21 respectively.
:18:42. > :18:44.The bill was designed to promote these continued growth and
:18:45. > :18:50.sustainability of this sector. I believe this bill will deliver what
:18:51. > :18:53.is required. The required change to create an improved service. The
:18:54. > :18:59.success and significant of these servers that credit unions provide
:19:00. > :19:03.here is backed up by statistics. 34% of the population hold a credit
:19:04. > :19:07.union account. Compared with around 5% and the rest of the UK. With
:19:08. > :19:12.membership doubling in the past decade.
:19:13. > :19:16.Frankly, the more you imitate banks, the more you become like banks. The
:19:17. > :19:22.more you become susceptible to the same pressures and regulation. We
:19:23. > :19:30.know what happened to them! I do hope that the sector continues its
:19:31. > :19:33.progress. It has always been a marvellously well-run system in
:19:34. > :19:39.Northern Ireland. I am sure it will continue to be so.
:19:40. > :19:45.Credit unions are enormous importance. I could speak for hours
:19:46. > :19:48.on the value that credit unions have maimed too many people.
:19:49. > :19:54.Individually, like myself, and collectively for families. I am glad
:19:55. > :19:59.that they have the level of support they have in Northern Ireland. That
:20:00. > :20:07.is reflective of the value that the people of Northern Ireland place in
:20:08. > :20:13.them. I remember back when I had a sunbeam that cost ?50. They told me
:20:14. > :20:19.I would be an essential car use and would need a reliable car at work.
:20:20. > :20:22.It was to the credit union, you turned for the loan for the
:20:23. > :20:23.second-hand car that allowed you to get a career.
:20:24. > :20:27.And the Credit Unions Bill passed on an oral vote.
:20:28. > :20:29.A Licensing Bill, brought to the house by Judith Cochrane,
:20:30. > :20:33.If it progresses it would mean outdoor stadia would be able
:20:34. > :20:35.to apply for permanent licences to sell alcohol.
:20:36. > :20:44.Currently stadium operators have to apply for temporary licences.
:20:45. > :20:52.This bill aims to apply the licensing provisions to outdoor
:20:53. > :20:58.stadium. The committee supports the bill for this new type of licence. I
:20:59. > :21:02.believe that the reform of our licensing laws is well overdue. The
:21:03. > :21:09.committee for social development has discussed this on a number of
:21:10. > :21:15.occasions throughout this mandate. We have a mandate to bring forward,
:21:16. > :21:21.comprehensive legislation to do with the licensing laws on that basis,
:21:22. > :21:27.the social development committee supports the bill. Can I just say,
:21:28. > :21:34.with your indulgence, it would be remiss of me not to mention our
:21:35. > :21:39.congratulations to Carl Frampton who is now a superbantamweight champion.
:21:40. > :21:44.He is a great credit to himself, his family and the people in the area he
:21:45. > :21:49.comes from. Can I start with the chair left off
:21:50. > :21:52.and congratulate Carl Frampton. It was clear on Saturday night that the
:21:53. > :21:57.Ulster boys were making all the noise everywhere they went. We wish
:21:58. > :22:02.him every success for the future. The issue that has been alluded to
:22:03. > :22:05.several times already is one that was the subject of some scrutiny by
:22:06. > :22:13.the committee, that is the issue of the 9pm threshold. Particularly for
:22:14. > :22:19.games, and there are quite a few games which commences in and around
:22:20. > :22:24.seven or 730 in the evening. Therefore, either run close to the
:22:25. > :22:30.9pm their shoulder or certainly, if people want to stay on after the
:22:31. > :22:36.game, the 9pm threshold effects them particularly if they are families.
:22:37. > :22:39.Quite a few of those attending the games are families, and therefore an
:22:40. > :22:48.issue does arise in terms of accessibility.
:22:49. > :22:51.I too would like to pass on my congratulations to Carl Frampton.
:22:52. > :22:54.There is a relevance with this legislation today in that in some
:22:55. > :22:59.point in the future and outdoor stadium may be required for a
:23:00. > :23:02.subsequent world title fight. It is important that we update our
:23:03. > :23:10.legislation. I am disappointed that there was no
:23:11. > :23:16.attempt to restrict the licence from a 360 Friday year year licence, to
:23:17. > :23:22.one, if the purpose is to facilitate sporting events, when the stadium
:23:23. > :23:26.are actually in use for those purposes.
:23:27. > :23:31.He was aware that this is a new reform of licence, it is a specific
:23:32. > :23:37.licence was stadium. It is ancillary to an event occurring in the
:23:38. > :23:42.stadium. This notion of a 365 day licence, we are not opening a pub in
:23:43. > :23:47.the stadium. It is ancillary to an event. If our stadium, that has been
:23:48. > :23:51.arrested in by the Northern Ireland executive could manage to run events
:23:52. > :23:56.began to 65 days a year, I would be immensely surprised. It would mean
:23:57. > :24:00.that they were really, really realising the potential of the
:24:01. > :24:04.stadium. I don't see that that is happening. It's not in the business
:24:05. > :24:07.The licence will always be ancillary to an event.
:24:08. > :24:09.The Alliance Party's Judith Cochrane, who brought
:24:10. > :24:10.the Licensing Bill which passed its Consideration Stage
:24:11. > :24:14.Now on to matters from the weekend, not the Irish elections,
:24:15. > :24:16.but the Green Party's annual conference which was held
:24:17. > :24:29.This sort of photo is featuring a lock on the conference trail.
:24:30. > :24:34.Candidates on display and ready for doorsteps. But the Greens have never
:24:35. > :24:40.had a picture like this before. This is the first time they are running
:24:41. > :24:46.in all 18 in situ disease. Half of the candidates are women. This was
:24:47. > :24:55.emphasised by the leader. -- 18 in constituencies. This reflects how it
:24:56. > :25:05.is in society. It reflects the assembly as it should be. He is
:25:06. > :25:10.currently the Greens only MLA. Taking his seat will be the party's
:25:11. > :25:13.first priority in May. They seem confident they can do better than
:25:14. > :25:19.that. I am looking for at least the
:25:20. > :25:23.Greensleeves. I am confident, my record in the assembly, my party's
:25:24. > :25:31.record in terms of campaigning, we can go with confidence to back it
:25:32. > :25:36.up. And so he is aiming for the stars.
:25:37. > :25:47.This is a new Pope. Let's hope it's the force a week and is! -- a new
:25:48. > :25:53.Hope. We are offering the electorate something to vote for rather than
:25:54. > :25:57.against. The big message we got in May 2015 was that people are trying
:25:58. > :26:01.to break the cycle of voting something that they didn't support
:26:02. > :26:06.to keep something that they didn't support out. We had a huge mandate
:26:07. > :26:13.and our best election result ever. But is there a limit it did pool of
:26:14. > :26:17.votes for parties that are not Unionist or nationalist. They think
:26:18. > :26:21.the appeal to the post-troubles generation.
:26:22. > :26:26.We are leading that agenda. We are looking at things like transparency,
:26:27. > :26:29.whether it be defending student fees, ensuring they don't go any
:26:30. > :26:35.higher. We represent young people. The
:26:36. > :26:39.conference did not hold the attention of everyone, but this was
:26:40. > :26:44.the biggest Green party gathering ever hear. Membership has trebled,
:26:45. > :26:45.but whether the party will achieve their ambitions will become clear in
:26:46. > :26:45.May. Chris Page reporting,
:26:46. > :26:48.and Gareth is here for a final word. The former Foyle MLA
:26:49. > :26:51.Maurice Devenney has quit the DUP, But it's not as clear
:26:52. > :27:07.as to whether or not he's joining He has a starring role, his very own
:27:08. > :27:14.political soap opera with a different plot twist every week. He
:27:15. > :27:18.was briefly an MLA here, co-opted to replace the former Speaker. He
:27:19. > :27:23.disappeared after about seven months. Recently the DUP suspended
:27:24. > :27:30.imports allegedly standing out a police station in encouraging people
:27:31. > :27:35.to vote for the SDLP MPU. Last week the Ulster Unionist party said he
:27:36. > :27:41.had joined them. The gauche Asians have been going on for some time. --
:27:42. > :27:46.negotiations have been going on for some time. Today he has said he is
:27:47. > :27:52.not joining the Ulster Unionist party at all. He has changed his
:27:53. > :27:55.mind. He said in a statement that as a result of discussions over the
:27:56. > :28:00.weekend, there are a number of issues I feel we cannot find
:28:01. > :28:03.agreement on. That seems to be news to the Ulster Unionist leader who
:28:04. > :28:11.issued a terse statement tonight saying that the contact had been at
:28:12. > :28:17.his own request and not progress of Ulster Unionist party. When we met
:28:18. > :28:22.on Saturday he claims he was less sure. It is news to me. All in all,
:28:23. > :28:25.an episode from which neither the Ulster Unionists nor the man himself
:28:26. > :28:28.emerge well. And the Speaker has
:28:29. > :28:29.been hosting an event for the Royal British
:28:30. > :28:39.Legion tonight. It's part of his outreach as a Sinn
:28:40. > :28:46.Fein member. He hosted our remembrance event in November. He is
:28:47. > :28:51.hosting the British Legion tonight, it was one of the things he wants to
:28:52. > :28:55.do before he retires in a few weeks. He praised what he called the
:28:56. > :29:03.significant contribution be Legion has made to marking a shared
:29:04. > :29:06.He expressed his respect for helpful direction.
:29:07. > :29:10.Join me again at the same time tomorrow night,
:29:11. > :30:05.Until then, from everyone in the team, goodbye.
:30:06. > :30:16.If this offer isn't good enough for you, I'm absolutely not interested.
:30:17. > :30:20.I became jobless, penniless and homeless...