30/04/2012

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:00:26. > :00:30.Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. The sun has been shining, the

:00:30. > :00:33.temperature is slowly creeping up but all the heat up here was being

:00:33. > :00:43.generated in the chamber. The controversial topic? Tourism. And

:00:43. > :00:53.has Stephen Moutray been watching the Quiet Man once too often?

:00:53. > :00:59.

:00:59. > :01:02.Images of leprechauns and pipes of Dennis! -- pints of Guinness.

:01:02. > :01:06.surely that's better than north of the border where apparently there's

:01:06. > :01:09.not a lot to do. And with air passenger duty, fuel prices and

:01:09. > :01:18.payday loans all featuring, my guest throughout is Antoinette

:01:18. > :01:28.McKeown from the Consumer Council. Stamps, fuel, bus fares. You name

:01:28. > :01:29.

:01:29. > :01:32.it and it seems it's going up in price. The Consumer Council's

:01:32. > :01:42.tasked with standing up for our rights. Are you fighting a losing

:01:42. > :01:48.battle? Consumers are really struggling at the moment. Only have

:01:48. > :01:55.of us are keeping up with our bells at the moment. Energy has risen

:01:55. > :02:01.over recent years. We pay the highest petrol and diesel prices in

:02:01. > :02:07.Europe. We paid the highest car insurance in the United Kingdom.

:02:07. > :02:17.People are paying up to �30 more for their weekly grocery shop. It

:02:17. > :02:22.is painful at the moment for consumers. Was it a depressing that

:02:23. > :02:29.MLAs voted against devolving fuel duty powers last week? We gave

:02:29. > :02:33.evidence on that very issue last week. Our view is that our

:02:33. > :02:39.passengers in Northern Ireland experience at double whammy. We are

:02:39. > :02:46.an island of an island. We have a reduced cost when it comes to

:02:46. > :02:54.travel. It is totally unfair that we have to pay a high EAP D. We

:02:54. > :02:58.used travel as an essential part of family life, it is not a luxury. We

:02:58. > :03:07.believe the costs of the rear passenger duty being removed is

:03:07. > :03:13.actually not an opportunity cost. The Consumers' would have a 98.5 %

:03:13. > :03:21.of travel between Belfast and Great Britain made by every day consumers.

:03:21. > :03:26.We believe there is opportunity costs here when we only pay at 3

:03:26. > :03:32.euros flat rate in the Republic of Ireland. And looking at the price

:03:32. > :03:39.of food, is that something you can do anything about? Can you put

:03:39. > :03:44.pressure on farmers or supermarkets, or what can you do? We have to make

:03:44. > :03:52.sure that consumers have the skills themselves to manage their money

:03:52. > :04:02.better. There is good news in that our Executive in Stormont has

:04:02. > :04:04.

:04:04. > :04:08.agreed a commitment for Government to bring forward a financial

:04:08. > :04:11.capability skills package. first item of business in the

:04:11. > :04:14.chamber today was what is known as "matter of the day". This allows

:04:14. > :04:24.members to speak on a topic which has just arisen - in this instance

:04:24. > :04:28.it was the bomb discovered in Newry. After enduring 30 years of the

:04:28. > :04:34.violence the general public, including De people of my

:04:34. > :04:41.constituency, are utterly are repulsed by the thought of violence

:04:41. > :04:46.being used here again. Violence has been rejected by people in both the

:04:46. > :04:51.jurisdictions of this island. Those who seek to further their aims in

:04:51. > :04:57.this way should listen to the people and desist from what they

:04:57. > :05:04.are doing and do so immediately. It is a concern at the level of

:05:05. > :05:09.sophistication in terms of this particular bomb. It is a concern to

:05:10. > :05:14.this party as to how that has come about and we want to be assured

:05:14. > :05:20.that the police are able to effectively combat the threat that

:05:20. > :05:26.exists. We have shown commitment by giving additional funding to the

:05:26. > :05:36.police. We want to be assured that the police are able to combat the

:05:36. > :05:37.

:05:37. > :05:41.threat. When there is an honourable position where people can protest

:05:42. > :05:46.they have a responsibility to offer a rationale. While no one has

:05:46. > :05:51.claimed responsibility, neither have those who dissent from this

:05:51. > :05:56.process offered any rationale behind these occurrences. They are

:05:56. > :06:01.duty bound if they have a different means that what we are doing here

:06:01. > :06:06.is so wrong or our engagement of the police or a political process

:06:06. > :06:16.is so wrong then they have a duty to point out how instances such as

:06:16. > :06:23.these are a potential alternative. The potential that best bomb could

:06:23. > :06:29.have had is really just unthinkable. Can I join with others to thank and

:06:29. > :06:35.express gratitude to the Army bomb disposal team, the PSNI and the

:06:35. > :06:40.individual who raised the alarm may concern that the vehicle was

:06:40. > :06:48.something that posed danger. Alliance party's Stewart Dickson

:06:48. > :06:50.and the TUV's Jim Allister also condemned the attempted bombing.

:06:50. > :06:53.The Finance Minister was flying high today as he outlined a

:06:53. > :06:56.timetable for the the devolution of air passenger duty at question time.

:06:56. > :06:58.But first it was Agriculture, and when it comes to the Rural

:06:59. > :07:08.Development Programme, Michelle O'Neill has a problem other

:07:08. > :07:16.departments would love to have. have �100 million left that we have

:07:16. > :07:23.to spend before the end of the programme. For a variety of reasons

:07:23. > :07:28.and things are improving. Some areas have welcomed and

:07:28. > :07:34.constructively engaged with us. We have had numerous projects coming

:07:34. > :07:40.forward. I have not closed any calls for further applications but

:07:40. > :07:47.what is most important is that if we are sitting with applications

:07:47. > :07:57.that need processed we must continue to work on and insure the

:07:57. > :07:58.

:07:58. > :08:03.project continues. What lessons will be learned from the high level

:08:03. > :08:09.of squander on administration in the present programme when it comes

:08:09. > :08:14.to application in respect of the next? Will we then see a more

:08:14. > :08:19.efficient process than what we have had under the present programme?

:08:19. > :08:25.The member frequently raises the issue of administration spend and I

:08:25. > :08:30.think it is fair to say that many programmes are being set up with a

:08:30. > :08:35.higher percentage spend on administration in deep start. When

:08:35. > :08:40.you look at the percentage spent from the beginning it does not look

:08:40. > :08:50.particularly good but if we look at it again in 18 months we will be in

:08:50. > :08:51.

:08:51. > :08:58.afar, far better position. The only power which is that of Diane will

:08:59. > :09:02.be devolved to the Assembly will be for direct long-haul flights. If

:09:02. > :09:06.long-haul flights want to come into Belfast they will be subject to the

:09:06. > :09:12.scene changes we are proposing for flights to North America. We did

:09:12. > :09:17.not seek wider devolution for a number of reasons, firstly a time

:09:17. > :09:22.constraint, this was an issue we believed we had to deal with very

:09:22. > :09:29.quickly or we would lose the New York flight. Secondly, there is the

:09:29. > :09:34.cost element. If we had a wider devolution then be cost to the

:09:34. > :09:40.block grant would have been that much greater. Though we have made

:09:40. > :09:48.the point that generally hour passenger duty has and is currently

:09:48. > :09:52.been applied by the Treasury at Westminster as having a damaging

:09:53. > :09:58.effect on the aviation industry for the UK as a whole and will have a

:09:58. > :10:03.long-term effect, I believe, on two of them and other economic activity

:10:03. > :10:07.for the UK as a whole. Can the Minister tell us if his department

:10:07. > :10:10.have had a chance to make any assessment of how other

:10:10. > :10:19.jurisdictions deal with the air passenger duty and if there are any

:10:19. > :10:25.lessons we might be able to learn? Other jurisdictions are not and

:10:25. > :10:33.have not got themselves tied up with the environmental nonsense

:10:33. > :10:38.which has driven beat the air passenger duty debate. In fact, it

:10:38. > :10:42.is significant that there are very few other major economies that

:10:42. > :10:49.hamper their economies and the airlines in the way in which the UK

:10:49. > :10:54.Government is doing. This all goes back to the climate change act of

:10:54. > :11:00.2008 and this idea that somehow or other by taxing our travel we will

:11:00. > :11:05.save the world. I think that other countries have been cynical about

:11:05. > :11:10.it. I do not believe this current Government actually believes they

:11:10. > :11:16.will save this world by doing it but they will certainly fill the

:11:16. > :11:20.coffers of the Treasury. That is what it is all driven by! I and

:11:20. > :11:25.this DUP man did not expect the answer he got when he asked what

:11:25. > :11:30.could be done about companies' advertising loans with extortionate

:11:30. > :11:36.interest rates. That is what the Government are looking at when the

:11:36. > :11:42.cap the interest rates etc. I am glad he has raised this issue of

:11:42. > :11:49.how the media is used because, and he may not have realised, but his

:11:49. > :11:58.own leader is actually guilty of some of what I would describe as

:11:58. > :12:02.almost the promotion of loan shark type activity. May I note the words

:12:02. > :12:07.during bpd loans debate during the Assembly when his leader, who was

:12:07. > :12:13.not the leader then, but he said he would support the motion for or

:12:13. > :12:20.fear interest rates and protection of consumers but until this weekend,

:12:20. > :12:30.his own website was promoting cash genie which enabled people to

:12:30. > :12:39.

:12:40. > :12:45.borrow between 75 to �750 at a snip, an average APR of 2339 %. Perhaps

:12:45. > :12:50.he could take back to his own leader that I am quite happy for

:12:50. > :12:56.the financial services are authority to deal with this issue.

:12:56. > :13:02.The Consumer Credit good deal with this issue but maybe just by a bit

:13:02. > :13:08.of self denial, his own leader who in the very week he was going to be

:13:08. > :13:15.that poor families to seek -- to see how he could help them in the

:13:15. > :13:22.current recession, was advertising loans for these families of more

:13:22. > :13:29.than 2000 %, perhaps that is where Minister highlighted ap issue on

:13:29. > :13:33.the website of Mike Nesbitt. He is not wear of any loan adverts being

:13:33. > :13:38.on his website and it seems to be something that happens out of the

:13:38. > :13:41.website own irs or who is running them out of their control. Is that

:13:41. > :13:45.one of the difficulties with these short-term high interest loan, that

:13:45. > :13:48.the availability of them, that people no matter where they r

:13:48. > :13:54.whether it son the internet, the television the ath add vers are

:13:54. > :13:58.coming thick at fast at you. Absolutely. The issue for the

:13:58. > :14:02.Consumer Council is we have made a submission to the Office of Fair

:14:02. > :14:06.Trading which is looking at the irresponsible lending guidance

:14:06. > :14:12.which covers these types of hort term high credit loans. It is

:14:12. > :14:19.important that we site this is a regulated industry, there is a

:14:19. > :14:23.place for them, but the issue that the Consumer Council has concerned

:14:23. > :14:26.about is bad practise where consumers are encouraged to rolling

:14:26. > :14:31.the debt on. They are readily available. Quite often you can get

:14:31. > :14:36.a loan within ten minutes. I would defy anyone to do a proper credit

:14:36. > :14:41.check in ten minutes. They are extortionate rates. We would like

:14:41. > :14:44.to see a cap. The cap seems to be the thing that would help people

:14:44. > :14:48.not to get into huge amounts of debt. It is really important that

:14:48. > :14:53.the regulation is working effectively for consumers and we

:14:53. > :14:58.are doing work on their behalf within this regulated market.

:14:58. > :15:02.some might say our MLAs are behind the times but no longer. The

:15:02. > :15:07.Speaker ruled this morning that members can now use their tablet

:15:07. > :15:12.devices in the chamber. While they are going hi-tech the Speaker

:15:12. > :15:16.warned that old fashioned good manners must still apply. Some

:15:16. > :15:20.members were Queen for the procedures to be reviewed so they

:15:20. > :15:26.had the flex bill to keep in touch with pressing issues in their

:15:26. > :15:30.constituencies and elsewhere. -- flexibility. However, I say to

:15:30. > :15:36.member, the flexibility works both ways. Members should know that

:15:36. > :15:43.currently if they want to speak in debates, they are expected to be

:15:43. > :15:51.present in the chamber for opening speeches, and to remain for at

:15:51. > :15:55.least two further speeches. Let me say this, I have watched all sides

:15:55. > :16:01.of this House, for members come into this chamber who haven't heard

:16:01. > :16:03.the opening remarks, of a particular debate, who get up on

:16:03. > :16:07.their place, say what they are saying and then leave, and don't

:16:07. > :16:13.even have the courtesy to wait at least to hear some of the debate,

:16:13. > :16:16.and to hear other members speaking in a debate, in the chamber. Now

:16:16. > :16:21.this is something that we are watching carefully, I can assure

:16:21. > :16:24.members should it continue and it is all sides of the House, should

:16:24. > :16:29.it continue I can assure members I will deal with the issue, because

:16:29. > :16:32.it is totally wrong, and it is totally discourt US to other

:16:32. > :16:36.members of the House and for this House, for members just to walk

:16:36. > :16:40.into the chamber say what they are going to say and leave. They don't

:16:40. > :16:44.really care what other members might say. Or don't care what the

:16:44. > :16:49.motion or the business of the House S Well, you have been warned, the

:16:49. > :16:53.Speaker is watching you! Let us take a look at the of work the

:16:53. > :16:56.Stormont committees. Public accounts in a moment but first

:16:56. > :17:00.finance it was Air Passenger Duty that had people worked up. One

:17:00. > :17:04.witness wanted to know why we welcome oversea advice to,

:17:04. > :17:08.encourage them to spend money and slap a tax on them as they leave.

:17:08. > :17:12.There is a real sense of excitement in much of the tourist industry due

:17:12. > :17:18.to the our time our place initiative and the activities that

:17:18. > :17:22.are going on there. I will not list all of them, the Titanic Belfast,

:17:22. > :17:27.the City of Culture, the police and fire game, they are all

:17:27. > :17:31.contributing a sense of pride and profile, which is great. The small

:17:31. > :17:35.businesses away from the big ticket attractions may not be benefiting

:17:35. > :17:39.as much as they like. Some are saying they are not. There is no

:17:39. > :17:43.doubt the tourism market is take off and the assembly has to be

:17:43. > :17:48.commented for its invest fment that ambitious vision. Having attracted

:17:48. > :17:52.tens of thousands of advice to, it does beg the question why do we tax

:17:52. > :17:56.them to leave? That is what we are doing. They may not have paid a tax

:17:56. > :18:03.to arrive here if they have come from outside the UK but we tax them

:18:03. > :18:04.to get out. They have paid domthie, have spent money whool they are

:18:04. > :18:07.here, they are our best marketing resource when they go back and

:18:07. > :18:13.share their photographs and tell their stories, yet the last thing

:18:13. > :18:17.we do is put a levy on them to get out of the country. We wouldn't do

:18:17. > :18:22.it in many businesses. There have been many stories, if I wrap up,

:18:22. > :18:26.about the option that people have to travel to Dublin airport as a

:18:26. > :18:32.alternative looking at it as a hub there is a huge range of

:18:32. > :18:37.destinations, but it, if we look at the following observation that

:18:37. > :18:42.England's two main cities Birmingham and London are just over

:18:42. > :18:46.100 miles apart. Yet in England they invest over �37 billion to

:18:46. > :18:49.connect them. For the benefit of business and taking a very long-

:18:49. > :18:52.term view of the investment. If we are serious about connecting

:18:52. > :19:00.thierld with the rest of the world, we need to look at the pariers we

:19:00. > :19:06.have put in place and set about removing them. If there is a report

:19:06. > :19:10.from the Audit Office, 2000 9. It seems very strange, that seems

:19:10. > :19:17.strange to yourself. I see the point you are make, it does seem

:19:17. > :19:22.strange. What I will undertake is to find out precisely when files

:19:22. > :19:26.were disposed of. That will be interesting and I mean, that

:19:27. > :19:30.probably bow down within our own inquiries, it seems very strange

:19:30. > :19:37.that this is a couple of times that, where departments have come up in

:19:38. > :19:42.front of us, where the Audit Office seems to take an ap proech, and yet

:19:42. > :19:49.files are destroyed. Not good enough. You said earlier Mr Ross,

:19:49. > :19:55.you would say the sale was conducted in a professional basis.

:19:55. > :20:02.Given what we have listened to over the last hour-and-a-half, are you

:20:02. > :20:08.still of that opinion? Because this hearing's recorded in Hansard, it

:20:09. > :20:15.will be a record for the future. Am I to go home this evening believing

:20:15. > :20:19.that you're still of the opinion that the sale was conducted in a

:20:19. > :20:23.thoroughly professional basis? And I want an honest answer, not the

:20:23. > :20:28.one that was rehearsed before. would be on the view that is the

:20:28. > :20:32.case that, the sale was indeed handled in a proetionfvingsl --

:20:32. > :20:41.professional manner. That is about as depressing news I have heard

:20:41. > :20:46.today. Because if you were to put together material on how not to do

:20:46. > :20:51.something, this has to be it. I most certainly would not be giving

:20:51. > :20:56.you my pig to take to market, because I am convinced you would

:20:56. > :21:00.come home with no money. On the Air Passenger Duty, is this success

:21:00. > :21:03.story for the Consumer Council, because you have been so closely

:21:03. > :21:07.involved with the dedebate and putting pressure on the Government?

:21:07. > :21:12.There has ban debate as to whether we devolve the passenger duty or

:21:12. > :21:16.mot. What the Consumer Council has said we want to see the duty

:21:16. > :21:20.established swre. A peripheral low care, interestingly there is a

:21:20. > :21:25.precedent set for the Scottish Highlands and island. They don't

:21:25. > :21:28.have to pay Air Passenger Duty on some flights because it is

:21:28. > :21:34.recognised they are an essential part of life. The other issue is

:21:34. > :21:37.that the Westminster government are investing �32 billion in high speed

:21:37. > :21:43.rail, right across GB. That is a service that Northern Ireland

:21:43. > :21:49.consumers are not able to avail of, so surely, if the Westminster

:21:49. > :21:51.government can absorb 32 million for high speed rail they can absorb

:21:51. > :21:55.60 million for Northern Ireland air passenger, that is a fight we want

:21:55. > :21:58.to see the assembly take to Westminster. Do you they is one you

:21:59. > :22:03.can win? Absolutely the argument is there, the evidence is there. Let

:22:03. > :22:07.us have the fight. Now, all our MLAs want more tour lists to come

:22:08. > :22:13.here don't they? If you had heard some of the deTait this afternoon

:22:13. > :22:19.you might have had to think twice. There was talk of leprechauns and

:22:19. > :22:24.one MLA said he couldn't find enough for anyone to do coming

:22:24. > :22:31.other for a ten day break. It all happened when they were urged to

:22:31. > :22:35.get behind the Gatherling. It can lead to future vents investment and

:22:35. > :22:41.tourism in flow, this is a project not to be dismissed as some people

:22:41. > :22:44.have, but one to recognise and seize upon. The City of Culture

:22:44. > :22:48.2013 will be a massive boost to our economy. Both it and the world

:22:48. > :22:54.police and fire games can be more successful than originally

:22:54. > :22:58.anticipated, if taken as part of the home coming celebrations on an

:22:58. > :23:02.All-Ireland basis. The motion before it is certainly tourist

:23:02. > :23:07.orientated, but, but and I am not surprised in the view of those who

:23:07. > :23:14.have proposed it, it is a very green motion. It is a case of the

:23:14. > :23:18.SDLP using tourism as an excuse to peddle its Al Ireland agenda to my

:23:18. > :23:23.mind next year's Irish home coming will be hugely sentimental, and

:23:23. > :23:29.very Irish in a way that I for one cannot and will not identify with.

:23:29. > :23:34.It is the sort of mother Ireland concept which conjures up images of

:23:34. > :23:40.leprechaun, pints of Guinness, donkey, dancing at at the

:23:40. > :23:46.crossroads, and thatched cottages. T the sort of stuff we see too much

:23:46. > :23:49.of in retail outlets at our airports. I think the dangers in

:23:49. > :23:53.propoeting the north separate to the rest of the Ireland not only

:23:53. > :23:57.lie in confusion for visitors, but when somebody is looking at home on

:23:57. > :24:01.a website about places to visit, particularly from like Australia or

:24:01. > :24:06.America where there is a lengthy journey, most people will come for

:24:06. > :24:12.ten days or a fortnight. Many visitors would find it enough

:24:12. > :24:18.activities to justify staying Hoare for a week or fortnight. When I

:24:18. > :24:23.hear so much self defeatism going on in the chambers before we me, we

:24:23. > :24:28.have had Mr Flanagan, representing an area of Fermanagh, a beautiful

:24:28. > :24:34.section of our land, of our province, and somewhere where you

:24:34. > :24:37.could spend ten days, in Fermanagh. Without any problem. Here we have

:24:37. > :24:44.him representing that area, and struggling to even stay in Northern

:24:44. > :24:48.Ireland for ten days. I find that a shame. Tourism is about persuading

:24:48. > :24:56.people from other places to come here and spend time and maybe spend

:24:56. > :25:04.a bit of money. And enjoy it at the same time. It certainly not taking

:25:04. > :25:10.a place of our choice for a week or ten days, which seems to be the

:25:10. > :25:16.attitude emanating from some. I just despair, when I hear some of

:25:16. > :25:20.the attitudes resonating round this chamber today. I despair generally

:25:20. > :25:24.when we discuss tourism because frankly we don't have a clue, and I

:25:24. > :25:28.would humfully suggest Mr Principle Deputy Speaker we are a liability

:25:28. > :25:33.when it comes to creating tourism in the north. I find it difficult

:25:33. > :25:40.from the chitering in the background, would it be possible to

:25:40. > :25:43.deal with it? It is not something new. These schoolboys haven't a

:25:43. > :25:49.clue. Civil Service bonus, a controversial speech by Martin

:25:49. > :25:58.McGuinness and a Robinson come back, all in a day's work for Martina

:25:58. > :26:04.said the Alliance partty is only borrowing the seat. It is not Mr

:26:04. > :26:06.Robinson who is challenging Alliance in the next election. He

:26:06. > :26:11.says he has enough to do and it looks like it will be Gavin

:26:11. > :26:15.Robinson who is tipped to be the next Lord Mayor. He is a Belfast

:26:15. > :26:19.councillor. Alliance has fighting talk saying like words like

:26:19. > :26:22.borrowing the seat are the comments that cost hem in seat in the first

:26:22. > :26:26.place. He has been causing a stir in London. It is right. Martin

:26:26. > :26:29.McGuinness gave a speech this evening at the London School of

:26:29. > :26:32.Economics in which he urned the British people to ensure that the

:26:32. > :26:36.link with Northern Ireland and goodbye was broken. He said there

:26:36. > :26:41.is no need for a Northern Ireland office and a Secretary of State and

:26:41. > :26:46.those powers should be rans fered to store Stormont. He has announced

:26:46. > :26:49.the DUP who have described it as nonsense. Some of the sib nicks

:26:49. > :26:55.have said is Martin McGuinness talking tough on this, not just for

:26:55. > :26:59.you know because he believed it but because he may believe it is

:26:59. > :27:02.compromised. You have had your calculator out on the issue of

:27:02. > :27:06.bonuses. In answer to a written question from Pat Ramsey the

:27:06. > :27:11.Finance Minister said more than �600 thousand in bonuses was paid

:27:11. > :27:15.out last year to civil servants. And that averages round �280

:27:15. > :27:18.percivil servant. Pat Ramsey isn't happy. He thinks these bonuses

:27:18. > :27:22.shouldn't be paid out, the concentration should be on good

:27:22. > :27:25.wages for civil servant, and that he is not convinced that this is a

:27:25. > :27:31.way of ensuring that lower paid civil servants are, you know get a

:27:31. > :27:36.bit of a top up. He thinks the Department of Finance, which had an

:27:36. > :27:41.increase in the number of bonuses should be leading the way as Sammy

:27:41. > :27:45.Wilson is fond of lecturing other departments about. Tonight

:27:45. > :27:48.something we haven't touched on. Public transport and Translink

:27:48. > :27:52.announcing last week fares are going up 3% but the report that

:27:52. > :27:57.said in the future they could be operating at a loss and potentially

:27:57. > :28:01.fare also increase further. Yes, clearly we recognise the tran, --

:28:01. > :28:05.Translink have challenges in their financial position and they have

:28:05. > :28:10.tried to hold as many fares as possible and particular cashless

:28:11. > :28:14.fares have not increased. It is a real worry for the Consumer Council,

:28:14. > :28:19.we have a statutory role to respect public transport passenger, we are

:28:19. > :28:23.asking more questions in relation to future ridess, but we would also

:28:23. > :28:28.recognise that the more of us who use public transport, the cheaper

:28:28. > :28:31.it become, the less traffic on the roads, the better that is for us

:28:31. > :28:35.environmentally and the more traffic flows but we want to see

:28:35. > :28:38.more done for the many people who have no choice but to use public