:00:00. > :00:07.It's the biggest decision for the British people in a generation.
:00:08. > :00:10.Over the next few weeks I'll be talking live to leading campaigners
:00:11. > :00:32.Should the UK remain in or leave the European Union?
:00:33. > :00:35.Just 17 days until voters go to the polls in the referendum
:00:36. > :00:38.on our membership of the European Union.
:00:39. > :00:41.Welcome to the first of four live programmes in which I will be
:00:42. > :00:43.putting the claims of politicians on both sides of the
:00:44. > :00:49.Tonight, I'm joined by one of the Labour Party's leading
:00:50. > :00:52.campaigners for Britain to remain in the EU -
:00:53. > :00:57.Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn.
:00:58. > :01:03.Welcome to the programme. Good evening, Andrew. Starting with a
:01:04. > :01:09.quote from your leader, Jeremy Corbyn, coming back from 1992, but
:01:10. > :01:13.it turns out he's a bit of a profit. He said in a Commons debate about
:01:14. > :01:18.the Maastricht Treaty, the treaty that set Europe on the road to
:01:19. > :01:34.economic and monetary union, he said it would take away from...
:01:35. > :01:42.Jeremy Corbyn, 24 years ago. Which bits did he get wrong? The Jeremy of
:01:43. > :01:46.today is campaigning for us to remain in the European Union,
:01:47. > :01:49.because a lot of things have changed since the Maastricht Treaty was
:01:50. > :01:54.passed, including the biggest global crash since the 1930s that has been
:01:55. > :01:58.very hard for families and affected peoples incomes. But Jeremy is
:01:59. > :02:02.clear, we are clear, the Labour Party and the trade unions are
:02:03. > :02:05.campaigning for us to remain in the European Union. Membership has given
:02:06. > :02:11.us jobs, investment and growth, and we have the best economy in Europe
:02:12. > :02:16.for attracting foreign investment. The best workers' rights. It gives
:02:17. > :02:20.us security influence in the world and it has helped secure peace. They
:02:21. > :02:24.are all strong arguments to remain. You have not answered question of
:02:25. > :02:29.what he got from there. It would seem to me that he got a lot right.
:02:30. > :02:38.The core project of the European Union is the arose on. We are not in
:02:39. > :02:46.it, but it's the central tenet. I'm puzzled why, wide as Labour want to
:02:47. > :02:50.be in the union that is prepared to inflict such pain and misery on
:02:51. > :02:55.ordinary people? You answered the question in part when you reminded
:02:56. > :02:58.us that we are not in the euro. The last Labour government took that
:02:59. > :03:02.decision, it was a wise choice to make at the time and it's even more
:03:03. > :03:06.wise in hindsight because we have an economy where unemployment is
:03:07. > :03:09.falling, a record number of people in work, and it's true other
:03:10. > :03:14.countries in the Eurozone, and it was their decision, are facing a
:03:15. > :03:19.tough time. It is the core project of the European Union. The crash
:03:20. > :03:23.happened to countries inside and outside the European Union. None
:03:24. > :03:28.more so than the Western world and in the Eurozone. I'm puzzled why you
:03:29. > :03:32.want to be allies with people in a union and institution that wishes to
:03:33. > :03:36.and has been prepared to inflict such pain. Because it has given us
:03:37. > :03:41.jobs, investment and growth. And if we leave, as you know, nine out of
:03:42. > :03:48.ten economists, every bit of analysis done by the IMF, the OECD,
:03:49. > :03:54.the World Bank... This isn't what I asked. Why would we want to be
:03:55. > :03:59.allied with people who have been prepared to impose mass unemployment
:04:00. > :04:03.among young people across the Eurozone? Because we would have a
:04:04. > :04:08.weaker economy if we left European Union. If we took ourselves out of
:04:09. > :04:13.the single market, which gives us access to a market of 500 million
:04:14. > :04:16.people, which is really important for our economy. It would raise
:04:17. > :04:20.prices. The governor of the Bank of England says it might lead to
:04:21. > :04:25.recession. We have just been through the most painful recession since the
:04:26. > :04:32.1930s. Why would we want to run the risk of going through that again?
:04:33. > :04:34.That's why Jeremy Hunt all of us are campaigning to remain in the EU,
:04:35. > :04:41.Andrew. -- that's why Jeremy and all the others. You have argued that the
:04:42. > :04:46.EU safeguards British workers' rights. Why are we incapable of
:04:47. > :04:50.doing it ourselves? We are capable of doing both. The Leave campaign
:04:51. > :04:55.suggests we could have workers' rights in Britain or in Europe, or
:04:56. > :05:02.we could trade with Europe and the rest of the world. We could do both.
:05:03. > :05:09.If there were not common rights, and the European Union protects workers'
:05:10. > :05:13.rights across the EU, limits on working time, paid holiday, fair
:05:14. > :05:17.rights for women at work, protection for agency and temporary workers,
:05:18. > :05:23.the Leave campaign described them as red tape and bureaucracy. Let's take
:05:24. > :05:28.paid holiday. Everybody counts on that. Are you saying that if we left
:05:29. > :05:34.the EU we could no longer count on paid holiday? We have had paid
:05:35. > :05:37.holidays since 1938, a bit before joining the European Union. What we
:05:38. > :05:41.didn't have in this country until the working Time directive was
:05:42. > :05:47.passed, was a statutory right for paid holiday for every worker in the
:05:48. > :05:51.United Kingdom, and we did not have limits on working terms. Priti
:05:52. > :05:55.Patel, a prominent Leave campaign, said she would like to halve
:05:56. > :05:59.employment rights. Boris Johnson said the Prime Minister didn't get
:06:00. > :06:03.to grips with this problem in the renegotiation. Iain Duncan Smith was
:06:04. > :06:09.on your programme and asked about the bureaucracy he didn't lie, and
:06:10. > :06:13.he referred to health and safety legislation. I worked for the trade
:06:14. > :06:18.union movement for several years and I know how hard it was to win those
:06:19. > :06:22.rights. What rights will they seek to take away, and it's about time
:06:23. > :06:30.they came clean to the British people. There is a second reason...
:06:31. > :06:36.I'm going to ask now, how much of a paid holiday does the EU guarantee?
:06:37. > :06:45.It guarantees less than currently applies in the UK because it is a
:06:46. > :06:50.floor. In Britain we are guaranteed more paid holiday than EU law. Why
:06:51. > :06:54.would we lose that if we came out? It shows we can build on the basic
:06:55. > :07:02.rights the EU provides. We had it before the EU. We didn't have
:07:03. > :07:10.statutory paid holiday. It was Europe that won for women part-time
:07:11. > :07:14.workers access to pension schemes. We have a single market with single
:07:15. > :07:19.rules. If there were not common employment rights across Europe, it
:07:20. > :07:24.allows the bad employer to undercut the good, and the worst employer to
:07:25. > :07:29.undercut the bad. If one European country said that they would weaken
:07:30. > :07:32.workers' rights and jobs started disappearing in Britain towards that
:07:33. > :07:37.country, the first thing Britain would say is that we need common
:07:38. > :07:42.rules across the European Union. Those workers' rights protect
:07:43. > :07:46.workers across all 28 states. There is no prospect of a British
:07:47. > :07:49.government being elected that would abolish or reduce paid holidays or
:07:50. > :07:53.reduce maternity and paternity leave. That will not happen. It's
:07:54. > :08:02.scaremongering. It isn't scaremongering. I'm taking the Leave
:08:03. > :08:09.campaign is at their own words. On maternity leave, how much does EU
:08:10. > :08:13.law guarantee on maternity leave? We have better provision now because we
:08:14. > :08:17.have chosen to do that. It's British law, why would it change if we left?
:08:18. > :08:22.It's not a competition between the two. But in the Leave campaign,
:08:23. > :08:27.significant figures have said that one of their targets if we leave the
:08:28. > :08:30.European Union would be to weaken workers' rights which they describe
:08:31. > :08:36.as red tape and regulation. A lot of people go to work who were protected
:08:37. > :08:40.by health and safety regulation. Chris Grayling, a member of the
:08:41. > :08:44.government and a prominent Leave campaign regards it as bureaucracy
:08:45. > :08:47.and regulation. We are perfectly entitled to ask them... The trouble
:08:48. > :09:00.is, we have a Conservatives government who has not reduced
:09:01. > :09:03.paternity leave, paid holiday, and you could strengthen these
:09:04. > :09:08.protections in 2020 if we had a Labour government. And we have a
:09:09. > :09:14.better record of doing that. So why leave the EU? It provides protection
:09:15. > :09:21.across the EU and prevents this race to the bottom. It helps workers in
:09:22. > :09:24.Britain and across the continent. But Norway, Switzerland, they are
:09:25. > :09:28.outside the uber and they score better when it comes to workers'
:09:29. > :09:32.rights. It's the matter of a democratic decision of the country.
:09:33. > :09:37.My argument is you can have both. You can have a floor of basic rights
:09:38. > :09:41.across that protects workers and events a race to the bottom, and you
:09:42. > :09:45.can top it up as decisions you make as a sovereign nation. You get the
:09:46. > :09:51.best of both worlds. On immigration, people feel that a lot of conditions
:09:52. > :09:56.and pay has been affected by uncontrolled immigration. How would
:09:57. > :10:02.you control immigration? There are pressures, but workers coming here
:10:03. > :10:08.from the European Union contribute to our economy, and they have paid
:10:09. > :10:13.in ?20 billion more in... I didn't ask about benefits, I asked if you
:10:14. > :10:17.would control it or not? Just and see your question. One factor is the
:10:18. > :10:21.availability of work in the British economy. There jobs that need to be
:10:22. > :10:25.done and those workers make an important contribution and paid
:10:26. > :10:28.taxes which contributes to public services. Secondly, changes have
:10:29. > :10:32.been negotiated, meaning people coming here to look for work, if
:10:33. > :10:37.they haven't achieved that in six months, they could be asked to
:10:38. > :10:44.return. The key is, being asked to leave, could you give me an example
:10:45. > :10:47.of an EU citizen job-seeker who has been asked to leave because they
:10:48. > :10:51.couldn't find work in six months? Can you give an example? In the
:10:52. > :10:56.renegotiation a new agreement was reached which will come into effect
:10:57. > :11:00.if we vote to remain. The other thing on controlling the impact, you
:11:01. > :11:05.have on the cutting of wages, people not paid the minimum wage. That's
:11:06. > :11:12.mainly for illegal immigrants. I'm talking about the 2.2 million EU
:11:13. > :11:15.migrants working in Britain who are legal, have national insurance
:11:16. > :11:20.numbers. Asking you again, since that number has gone up millions
:11:21. > :11:27.since 2010, just from the EU alone, how would you control immigration if
:11:28. > :11:32.we remain in the EU? The truth is, there will continue to be
:11:33. > :11:36.immigration if we remain in the EU, and this week the Leave campaign
:11:37. > :11:41.announced they would like to have an Australian style points system. You
:11:42. > :11:45.know what the points system as done in Australia, it has increased
:11:46. > :11:48.immigration. That's because the Australians want more immigration.
:11:49. > :11:53.They want to control the quality but their policy is that they want more.
:11:54. > :11:58.Asking for a third time, how would you control immigration if we
:11:59. > :12:05.remained? Part of the deal of being part of the European Union is free
:12:06. > :12:08.movement of workers. 1.2 British workers exercise that right in other
:12:09. > :12:15.European countries. We have a need of people coming in. One in five of
:12:16. > :12:19.our care workers, looking after our parents and grandparents, come from
:12:20. > :12:23.outside the United Kingdom. As long as their jobs available and we have
:12:24. > :12:27.an economy that attracts people and they pay tax, most people would say
:12:28. > :12:31.to me, if they pay tax and are working, then good luck to them
:12:32. > :12:35.because they are contributing to our economy. A perfectly fair point of
:12:36. > :12:41.view for you and others to take. But in your mind and Labour's mind,
:12:42. > :12:45.there is no level of immigration that is unacceptable, there is no
:12:46. > :12:50.upper limit. The upper limit would in the end be determined by the
:12:51. > :12:55.availability of jobs in the economy. By the market? Unlike other
:12:56. > :12:59.countries who have high levels of unemployment, we have jobs that have
:13:00. > :13:04.been created in our economy, in part because we are in the single market.
:13:05. > :13:08.If we lose access to that, we will not deal with immigration by
:13:09. > :13:12.trashing and undermining the economy and raising prices by running the
:13:13. > :13:16.risk of having another recession. Net migration from the European
:13:17. > :13:23.Union was about 185,000 last year, just from the EU. Eurozone economies
:13:24. > :13:26.still have mass unemployment among the young. If net migration was to
:13:27. > :13:31.rise to a quarter of a million, would that be fine by you? We would
:13:32. > :13:37.have to see what happens. It depends on the strength of the British
:13:38. > :13:40.economy. It's part of the deal. You have to weigh the argument you are
:13:41. > :13:45.putting against the damage that would be done to the British economy
:13:46. > :13:49.if we were to leave the European Union, and, as the Leave campaigners
:13:50. > :13:53.want, walk away from the single market which is really important in
:13:54. > :13:59.attracting investment into Britain and continuing to create jobs and
:14:00. > :14:04.the incomes families have. 2.2 million EU migrants are working
:14:05. > :14:10.legally in Britain. It has doubled in six years. It's a big number. Are
:14:11. > :14:14.you claiming that has had no impact whatsoever on the pay and conditions
:14:15. > :14:19.of British workers? Studies have shown there is an argument among
:14:20. > :14:27.economists on this. There always is! Which is why getting nine out of ten
:14:28. > :14:33.of them to agree that leaving would be that is such a marker. Studies
:14:34. > :14:36.have shown there is a relatively small impact, but it is far
:14:37. > :14:40.outweighed for those who have had a tough time in recent years by the
:14:41. > :14:47.global crashed caused by behaviour of bankers.
:14:48. > :14:52.Many people think wages would go up if we left the EU because the boys
:14:53. > :14:56.have to pay higher wages because there would be less immigration.
:14:57. > :15:03.This is what Stuart Rose from your own side said.
:15:04. > :15:09.He is a businessman, so it is not necessarily a good thing but it is
:15:10. > :15:12.clear that wages would rise, particularly for the lower paid and
:15:13. > :15:16.maybe, I would suggest, you would think that's a good thing. Of course
:15:17. > :15:19.I want to see people earning more money. That is why the Labour
:15:20. > :15:23.government brought in a national minimum wage which incidentally,
:15:24. > :15:27.Iain Duncan Smith, who wants to leave the EU, voted against. But
:15:28. > :15:41.we're not going to help people on low incomes, median incomes and any
:15:42. > :15:43.incomes, we are not going to help them by undermining arrow economy,
:15:44. > :15:45.Andrew, by leaving the single market. I'm not arguing about the
:15:46. > :15:48.single market. It may well be that is the price... It will be bad for
:15:49. > :15:51.jobs... That might be the price you have to pay for uncontrolled
:15:52. > :15:54.immigration from the EU if you want access to the single market but I'm
:15:55. > :15:59.trying to get the impact on those who are already here. Of that 2.2
:16:00. > :16:04.million, 1.25 million come from the poorer parts of the European Union,
:16:05. > :16:08.the East, including Romania and Bulgaria and so on. Are you really
:16:09. > :16:13.claiming that the influx has not made life tougher for those already
:16:14. > :16:19.in low paid jobs in Britain or for the 1.7 million Britons who have
:16:20. > :16:23.been looking for work and can't find it? Well, it's had an impact on
:16:24. > :16:28.communities. When we were in government, we had a special fund,
:16:29. > :16:32.the migration impact fund, that paid money to communities affected by
:16:33. > :16:36.high levels of migration. I'm asking about wages. Come to that but one of
:16:37. > :16:40.the first things the Conservative government did was to get rid of it.
:16:41. > :16:51.Studies show there is a small impact but that is far outweighed by
:16:52. > :16:53.firstly, the impact of the global crash and secondly, it would be far
:16:54. > :16:55.outweighed by the economic costs, running the risk of having another
:16:56. > :16:58.recession, of leaving the European Union and all that would mean for
:16:59. > :17:02.investment and jobs in our economy. What about housing and the impact of
:17:03. > :17:05.immigration on that? The last Labour governor and this Tory government
:17:06. > :17:07.have both presided over huge increases immigration but you have
:17:08. > :17:13.both failed to build enough new homes to accommodate this increase
:17:14. > :17:18.in the population. There's now a huge shortage. Young people can't
:17:19. > :17:22.afford to get the housing ladder. That is a consequence of
:17:23. > :17:26.uncontrolled immigration. No, Andrew, it is a consequence of the
:17:27. > :17:30.failure to build enough homes. That is entirely in our hands. It is
:17:31. > :17:34.nothing to do... It was in your hands for 13 years and you did not
:17:35. > :17:39.build enough. We built a lot of homes during our time in government.
:17:40. > :17:42.You did not build anything like the number needed. We can have a
:17:43. > :17:45.discussion about house-building and I'm happy to do that. We're going to
:17:46. > :18:00.do it by communities taking responsibility for giving
:18:01. > :18:02.planning permission, to give councils more powers, one of leaving
:18:03. > :18:04.Jeremy Corbyn has argued for, to lift the borrowing cap on councils
:18:05. > :18:07.so they can build more council houses. I have many constituents who
:18:08. > :18:10.can't get an affordable home, they are in the private rented sector and
:18:11. > :18:12.it is down to us. It's nothing to do with immigration? We've had a huge
:18:13. > :18:15.influx of people and the housing shortage is nothing to do with it?
:18:16. > :18:18.It's down to our failure as a nation to build enough homes and ruining
:18:19. > :18:21.the economy, which is what is at stake in this referendum, how will
:18:22. > :18:25.that help us build the houses we need? It is not going to help. The
:18:26. > :18:30.last Labour government did not build enough homes as this can serve mid-1
:18:31. > :18:35.is not. What would a future Labour government do? If you stay in the
:18:36. > :18:40.EU, you will be unable to fulfil your promise to renationalise the
:18:41. > :18:45.railways, wouldn't you? No, that's not true. Would you like to tell us
:18:46. > :18:49.what is said about this? If you are talking about the Forth Railway
:18:50. > :18:53.package, as it is described, it does not present -- prevent member states
:18:54. > :18:57.having a publicly owned and run railway system and if you want to
:18:58. > :19:01.look at evidence of that, Andrew, look at the railway systems in other
:19:02. > :19:04.European countries. A lot of them are publicly run. It does not stop
:19:05. > :19:07.the state owning the railways themselves but it makes it
:19:08. > :19:13.compulsory to have cross-border competition on the lines and for
:19:14. > :19:17.other companies to bid against state or private companies for these same
:19:18. > :19:21.lines as well. It does not allow a return to British rail. It involves
:19:22. > :19:27.competition, including the private sector. Even the Germans, two of
:19:28. > :19:32.their regions have had to open their state owned lines up to the private
:19:33. > :19:37.sector competition. You could not nationalise. I disagree with you and
:19:38. > :19:41.I have looked carefully... It is still a draft and being negotiated
:19:42. > :19:46.and I've spoken to our colleagues working on this in the European
:19:47. > :19:50.Parliament... It has been approved by the Council of ministers. It does
:19:51. > :19:54.allow, and the European Parliament still have to finish the process, it
:19:55. > :19:58.allows the direct awarding of contracts which is what we seek to
:19:59. > :20:03.do if we win the election. We spoke to... The directive means that you
:20:04. > :20:08.have to allow the private sector to bid for lines. It is as clear as it
:20:09. > :20:12.is. And to open up a national passenger markets to cross-border
:20:13. > :20:15.competition. That is what the directive says. We spoke to the RMT
:20:16. > :20:21.today and they said there's no way that Labour could really nationalise
:20:22. > :20:24.the railways if we are covered by the 4-star rated. -- renationalise
:20:25. > :20:30.the railways. If we are still in the EU. I disagree with their
:20:31. > :20:35.interpretation and if we are elected in 2020, that is exacted what we
:20:36. > :20:39.want to do. You won't be able to change the directive if you are
:20:40. > :20:43.elected in 2020 because it would be European law and you would need the
:20:44. > :20:48.other 27 member states of the EU to agree and they won't. It does not
:20:49. > :20:51.stop us doing what we want. We shall see. Moving on to free trade,
:20:52. > :21:02.another part where you might not get what you want, a key part of the
:21:03. > :21:04.Remain case is the advantage it says we get when you negotiate free-trade
:21:05. > :21:07.deals to boost jobs, investment, trade and so on with other countries
:21:08. > :21:11.and regions. There's a huge one currently being between the EU and
:21:12. > :21:15.the US, the transatlantic trade agreement or Ttip that they are
:21:16. > :21:20.trying to reach. I would like you to see what Jeremy Corbyn said about
:21:21. > :21:24.it. A few weeks ago, the French president Francois Hollande de would
:21:25. > :21:28.veto the deal as it stands, and to become law, any deal would have to
:21:29. > :21:34.be ratified by each member state. So today, we give this pledge, as it
:21:35. > :21:43.stands, we, too, would reject TTIP and veto it in government. Do you
:21:44. > :21:46.agree with that? TTIP is not finalised, there are two concerns,
:21:47. > :21:50.one is about protecting the NHS and we need to be sure, the British
:21:51. > :21:56.public want to be sure, that there is a copper bottomed guarantee that
:21:57. > :22:03.it will not affect the NHS. You have said there is. We need to be sure.
:22:04. > :22:06.Rachel Reeves says... All of that is covered and the second issue with
:22:07. > :22:10.the investor state dispute mechanism when there is a disagreement about
:22:11. > :22:13.the way the scheme works but in the end, we will have two agree it and
:22:14. > :22:17.the best protection to ensure that we have a good trade deal, because
:22:18. > :22:21.the right kind of trade deal with the USA would be good for the
:22:22. > :22:24.economy, the best way to ensure that it is to stay within the European
:22:25. > :22:27.Union because I would not really want to see David Cameron
:22:28. > :22:32.negotiating a trade deal with the United States on our own if we were
:22:33. > :22:37.to leave the European Union. But hold on, let's be clear about this,
:22:38. > :22:41.Gabi Maine has highlighted President Obama's threat couple of weeks back
:22:42. > :22:44.who said that if we left the EU, we would be at the back of the key when
:22:45. > :22:47.it comes to trade deals but when it comes to the biggest ever trade
:22:48. > :22:50.deal, Jeremy Corbyn is not even in the queue, he wants to quit it
:22:51. > :22:56.altogether. It would not matter whether we were in or out of the EU
:22:57. > :23:01.on this trade deal. He does not want to do it. He has expressed concern
:23:02. > :23:04.about two particular aspects of the deal which are concerns which are
:23:05. > :23:09.shared by others. If we get the right deal, then that would be good
:23:10. > :23:13.for the British economy and we can support it but we won't support the
:23:14. > :23:18.wrong deal. He said we would veto it. Would you agree with that? If
:23:19. > :23:21.it's not the right deal for Britain, then we should not support it but
:23:22. > :23:26.there's a long way to go, as you know, Andrew, in these negotiations.
:23:27. > :23:30.What this brings us back to is the fundamental choice that we are
:23:31. > :23:39.facing in this referendum. You know, Andrew, today is the day. -- D Day.
:23:40. > :23:42.72 years ago, British forces, our franchise and the Americans set out
:23:43. > :23:44.from the south coast to beat fascism, supported by all of those
:23:45. > :23:50.nations that had been occupied. I understand that we have not got much
:23:51. > :23:54.time and I think we know what it is. Guess but the point I'm making is
:23:55. > :23:59.this, the centuries, Europe was mired in conflict. European leaders
:24:00. > :24:04.came together and said, "We can do better than this", and they built
:24:05. > :24:07.the European Union, as it is today, the corporation free democracies
:24:08. > :24:11.which acted out of -- as a beacon to Eastern European states as they
:24:12. > :24:14.escape from the Soviet empire. My argument and our argument in the
:24:15. > :24:18.referendum is this, this is not a vote about the past, it's not a vote
:24:19. > :24:21.about the change I've seen in my lifetime, it is how we're going to
:24:22. > :24:24.ensure that our children and grandchildren have the best of
:24:25. > :24:28.managing the change and the challenges they are going to see in
:24:29. > :24:34.their lives and the truth is... No, no, you've had enough, you've made
:24:35. > :24:37.your point. I want to show you a quote from Jeremy Corbyn because
:24:38. > :24:41.he's not convinced that all would be doom and gloom if we left. He
:24:42. > :24:44.attacked George Osborne's prophecies of doom. This is what he said about
:24:45. > :25:00.the Chancellor's predictions of how bad it would be. He said:.
:25:01. > :25:09.Is the Chancellor into it in, as Mr Corbyn Binks, the to leaving? -- is
:25:10. > :25:12.the Chancellor exaggerating, as Mr Corbyn and. He's right that George
:25:13. > :25:16.Osborne has got a lot of things wrong. I think the risk... Jeremy
:25:17. > :25:20.Hill self and we've published a letter today, signed by the vast
:25:21. > :25:23.majority of Labour MPs, pointing out that this would damage the economy
:25:24. > :25:29.and the lead signatories Jeremy Corbyn. I understand that but let me
:25:30. > :25:32.try with the third question, is the Chancellor, as Mr Corbyn clearly
:25:33. > :25:37.indicates by that quote, he's talked about prophecies of doom and
:25:38. > :25:42.histrionics and exaggerations, is the exaggerating, the Chancellor,
:25:43. > :25:46.the risks of leaving? The Treasury study that was published showed that
:25:47. > :25:52.there would be damage to the economy. How big would be recession
:25:53. > :25:57.be? Well, that depends... How big did the Treasury report said would
:25:58. > :26:01.be? It talked about the loss of wealth generated by the nation and
:26:02. > :26:07.the impact it would be. The governor of the Bank of England... I'm asking
:26:08. > :26:11.you about the Treasury report. How deep did the Treasury said the
:26:12. > :26:24.recession would be? If we left the EU next year. The person I'm quoting
:26:25. > :26:26.on the risk of recession is the governor of the Bank of England. The
:26:27. > :26:29.Treasury warned of damage to the national wealth and income. The
:26:30. > :26:31.Governor of the Bank of England has warned and Christine Lagarde of the
:26:32. > :26:34.IMF has said the outcomes could range from bad to very bad. Every
:26:35. > :26:37.single study that has done... Said it would be bad for the economy. The
:26:38. > :26:43.central forecast was that it would be the shallowest recession since
:26:44. > :26:46.1956 and it may not even be that. Are we sitting here discussing
:26:47. > :26:50.whether it would be a good idea to have a recession by leaving the
:26:51. > :26:56.European Union? I'm talking about the exaggeration, that was my
:26:57. > :27:00.question. The point is, there's a great risk... I'm only quoting
:27:01. > :27:03.Jeremy Corbyn, your leader. But there are two facts in the
:27:04. > :27:07.referendum, the fact of our membership, we knows the benefits it
:27:08. > :27:11.gives us, jobs, benefits, security, peace and influence with the world,
:27:12. > :27:14.and peace in Europe is an astonishing achievement for many
:27:15. > :27:16.people in the lifetime of this country and over here is the honest
:27:17. > :27:21.answer to most of the questions about what will happen if we leave?
:27:22. > :27:24.The answer is, we don't know and I don't think the British people are
:27:25. > :27:27.going to take a risk on that uncertainty and damage it would do
:27:28. > :27:31.to the economy when we know the benefits that being part of a
:27:32. > :27:36.partnership with our neighbours in Europe has been. One more question,
:27:37. > :27:40.if Leave wins the referendum, will the Labour Party not bear some of
:27:41. > :27:45.the responsibility? It will have failed to inspire and motivate
:27:46. > :27:50.traditional Labour voters to vote Remain? I'm not contemplating that.
:27:51. > :27:55.We are campaigning hard every single day. You have a struggle. To
:27:56. > :27:58.encourage people to vote remain on the 23rd of June and for me, the
:27:59. > :28:03.strongest and most inspiring argument of all is that if you are
:28:04. > :28:06.weighing centuries of conflict and death and co-operation which we know
:28:07. > :28:10.is the future for the world, that is the most powerful argument. I will
:28:11. > :28:11.have to stop you there but you have made the point. Thank you for
:28:12. > :28:12.joining us. That's it for tonight, but I'll be
:28:13. > :28:16.back on Wednesday for the second I'll be joined by the
:28:17. > :28:19.Chancellor, George Osborne. That's at 7.30pm again
:28:20. > :28:20.here on BBC One. On Friday, my guest will be Ukip
:28:21. > :28:23.leader Nigel Farage. And then the following Friday -
:28:24. > :28:25.that's June 17th - Leave campaigner and former
:28:26. > :28:27.Tory Cabinet minister I hope you can join me for them all.
:28:28. > :29:09.Until then, goodbye. Hello, I'm Alice Bhandhukravi
:29:10. > :29:14.with your 90 second update. Richard Huckle abused up to 200
:29:15. > :29:23.children in Malaysia. Today he was given twenty
:29:24. > :29:27.two life sentences by