0:00:02 > 0:00:05In less than two weeks, voters go to the polls
0:00:05 > 0:00:06at the general election
0:00:06 > 0:00:08to choose who will represent them in Parliament,
0:00:08 > 0:00:10and who will lead the country.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13So which of the party leaders has the best plan for the future
0:00:13 > 0:00:16of the United Kingdom?
0:00:16 > 0:00:19Tonight I'm joined by the leader of the Labour Party
0:00:19 > 0:00:21and the man who hopes to be prime minister,
0:00:21 > 0:00:31Jeremy Corbyn.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58Mr Corbyn, today you drew a link between terror attacks at home
0:00:58 > 0:01:00and British actions abroad.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03Do you believe if Britain had not followed the foreign policy it has
0:01:03 > 0:01:05since Tony Blair was in office, the attack on Manchester
0:01:05 > 0:01:08would not have happened?
0:01:08 > 0:01:15The attack on Manchester was shocking, appalling indefensible,
0:01:15 > 0:01:16wrong in every possible way.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20The attack on Manchester was shocking, appalling indefensible,
0:01:20 > 0:01:21wrong in every possible way.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24The parallel I was drawing this morning was that a number of people,
0:01:24 > 0:01:27ever since the interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq have drawn
0:01:27 > 0:01:28attention to the links with foreign policy,
0:01:28 > 0:01:30including Boris Johnson in 2005, two former heads
0:01:30 > 0:01:33of MI5, and of course the Foreign Affairs Select Committee,
0:01:33 > 0:01:38and the point I was making was, we have to make our streets secure.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41We have to make our population secure.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44We also, any sensible government, has got to look
0:01:44 > 0:01:47to what is happening in Libya, a huge ungoverned space
0:01:47 > 0:01:52and apparently a source of some awful extremism.
0:01:52 > 0:01:56But was Manchester a consequence of our foreign policy?
0:01:56 > 0:01:58Manchester was a consequence of one person going into a music event
0:01:58 > 0:02:01and killing a very large number of people, there can be no
0:02:01 > 0:02:05defence whatsoever of that.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07So nothing to do with foreign policy?
0:02:07 > 0:02:12I do not in any way change that view.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15That is just a vile, horrible event and those people have
0:02:15 > 0:02:17got to be brought to book.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19Obviously, the one who did
0:02:19 > 0:02:22it is dead but there appears to be a whole connection of them.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26I made the point that if we are to have a secure future,
0:02:26 > 0:02:28we've got to look at ungoverned spaces around the world
0:02:28 > 0:02:31and the consequences of our wars of intervention.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34This is not just me, as I said, this is MI5, it's
0:02:34 > 0:02:36Foreign Affairs Select Committee, it's a number of other people.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40But I'm struggling to find the role of foreign policy you see
0:02:40 > 0:02:42Islamic State was founded well before the invasion of Iraq.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45It's murdering people across Europe because it hates our values.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48Only last year they said this, "Some might argue that your foreign
0:02:48 > 0:02:52policies are what drives our hatred but this particular reason
0:02:52 > 0:02:55for hating you is secondary, even if you were to stop bombing us,
0:02:55 > 0:02:58we would continue to hate you.
0:02:58 > 0:03:05Our primary reason for hating you will not crease to exist
0:03:05 > 0:03:08Our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist
0:03:08 > 0:03:09until you embrace Islam."
0:03:09 > 0:03:11It's a totally perverted form of Islam.
0:03:11 > 0:03:12But it's not foreign policy.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15No, it's not Islam at all, what we have is a total
0:03:15 > 0:03:16perversion of Islam there.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19The point I'm making and the point that many others have made,
0:03:19 > 0:03:23not of necessarily Labour opinion, or any other, quite a wide range
0:03:23 > 0:03:27of opinion across the spectrum is that you have the consequences
0:03:27 > 0:03:33of our interventions in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Libya, leaving large
0:03:33 > 0:03:39numbers of ungoverned spaces, leaving people in a desperate
0:03:39 > 0:03:42situation, who themselves may become prey to that form of perversion,
0:03:42 > 0:03:45and I think it would be unwise of any government to ignore
0:03:45 > 0:03:47that but that is exactly what the Foreign Affairs Select
0:03:47 > 0:03:49Committee pointed out.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51But they're targeting young girls at a pop concert
0:03:51 > 0:03:54because they hate our values, they said they hate
0:03:54 > 0:03:56secular, liberal societies.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58It's not foreign policy?
0:03:58 > 0:04:01I agree, they hate those liberal values, they hate the idea of women
0:04:01 > 0:04:04being able to enjoy themselves and all the liberal values
0:04:04 > 0:04:07and that was the whole point of my speech this morning.
0:04:07 > 0:04:11We've got to defend our liberal values.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13Sure, but where's the foreign policy?
0:04:13 > 0:04:15I mean, what was the foreign policy of Sweden?
0:04:15 > 0:04:17The result of even Sweden being attacked?
0:04:17 > 0:04:20The foreign policy issue has to be for all of us.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24What is happening in a number of countries, where we have
0:04:24 > 0:04:27intervened and where there is a lack of any coherent form of...
0:04:27 > 0:04:29But wouldn't we be attacked anyway?
0:04:29 > 0:04:32Well, Andrew, shouldn't we look at where the sources are coming
0:04:32 > 0:04:33from of those attacks?
0:04:33 > 0:04:36Surely any sensible person would want to do that.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38Well, you're the one that raised foreign policy today.
0:04:38 > 0:04:39What was the foreign policy?
0:04:39 > 0:04:46The Yazidi women, enslaved and sexually assaulted and killed.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48The Yazidid women - what was their foreign policy?
0:04:48 > 0:04:51Andrew, I am not defending any attacks on women or anybody else.
0:04:51 > 0:05:00I'm not accusing you.
0:05:00 > 0:05:01Thank you.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04What I'm saying is that it would be unwise of any government or anywhere
0:05:04 > 0:05:06in the world to ignore the issue of instability
0:05:06 > 0:05:07across the peace which
0:05:07 > 0:05:10gives a space for that kind of perversion of Islam
0:05:10 > 0:05:11to take hold.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14Barack Obama has said as much, many others have said as much.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16You've called for, your phrase was, smarter ways today,
0:05:16 > 0:05:18to deal with countries harbouring terrorists but you wouldn't put
0:05:18 > 0:05:21boots on the ground, you wouldn't bomb the terrorists,
0:05:21 > 0:05:24you wouldn't use drones to take out the terrorist leaders
0:05:24 > 0:05:26so, what would you do?
0:05:26 > 0:05:27Would you talk to them?
0:05:27 > 0:05:28No, I wouldn't.
0:05:28 > 0:05:30Isis doesn't come from nowhere.
0:05:30 > 0:05:31Isis doesn't get its money from nowhere.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33Isis doesn't get its arms from nowhere.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36Isis does have a whole lot of connections around the world,
0:05:36 > 0:05:38financial and others, which I think need to be robustly
0:05:38 > 0:05:42chased and followed.
0:05:42 > 0:05:43That's it?
0:05:43 > 0:05:45That's the smarter way?
0:05:45 > 0:05:47Well, that's a good start for doing it.
0:05:47 > 0:05:49It's very vague.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53The other one is to look at the situation in Libya,
0:05:53 > 0:05:56where you have a lack of government, where you need stronger presence
0:05:56 > 0:06:00of UN diplomacy in order to bring about the start of some stronger
0:06:00 > 0:06:03form of government there, otherwise you've got a problem
0:06:03 > 0:06:06which isn't going to go away and that is a view that I put
0:06:06 > 0:06:09forward in what was intended to be a thoughtful contribution this
0:06:09 > 0:06:12morning of how we deal with these things and I think you'll find,
0:06:12 > 0:06:17actually, quite a lot of public will not disagree
0:06:17 > 0:06:19with what I've said.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23Well, we live in an age of terrorism, that's clear.
0:06:23 > 0:06:24One of the most important responsibilities of being
0:06:24 > 0:06:28Prime Minister is keeping the British people safe.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31Why would the British people want as their leader, a man
0:06:31 > 0:06:33who for years supported the IRA?
0:06:33 > 0:06:35I didn't support the IRA, I don't support the IRA,
0:06:35 > 0:06:38what I want everywhere is a peace process, what I want everywhere
0:06:38 > 0:06:41is decency and human rights.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44We went through all the horrors of Northern Ireland,
0:06:44 > 0:06:49all through the '70s and the '80s, through the period of the Troubles.
0:06:49 > 0:06:54And eventually came from that, a peace process,
0:06:54 > 0:06:58the Good Friday Agreement and now relatively peace and stability
0:06:58 > 0:07:01and actually, Northern Ireland has been a bit of a model
0:07:01 > 0:07:05around the world.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07It certainly helped in the peace process in Colombia.
0:07:07 > 0:07:09It's a model that is used in trying to
0:07:09 > 0:07:11bring communities together in South Africa and other places.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14I think there's something we can all learn from Northern Ireland.
0:07:14 > 0:07:19Where the two big divides, the Nationalist tradition
0:07:19 > 0:07:21and the Unionist tradition, came together on a basis
0:07:21 > 0:07:24of recognising a different tradition each had.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26That's quite powerful.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29You say you didn't support the IRA but you invited
0:07:29 > 0:07:31convicted IRA terrorists
0:07:31 > 0:07:33to tea in the Commons, a few weeks after the Brighton bomb,
0:07:33 > 0:07:35which tried to destroy our elected government.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39You stood for a minute's silence to honour, your word,
0:07:39 > 0:07:41Mr Corbyn, to honour, IRA terrorists killed
0:07:41 > 0:07:44by the British Army.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48Throughout the '80s and the '90s you spoke at scores of hardline
0:07:48 > 0:07:52Republican gatherings which backed the IRA and the arms struggle.
0:07:52 > 0:07:54I always wanted and always do want peace.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56Always want a dialogue between people of vastly
0:07:56 > 0:08:01different backgrounds.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04And the minute's silence you referred to was in 1987,
0:08:04 > 0:08:06it was for ALL who had died in Northern Ireland.
0:08:06 > 0:08:13In honour of the eight IRA terrorists who had been killed.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16In honour of the eight IRA terrorists who had been killed.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18That was the purpose of the meeting.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20I said ALL those that had died in Northern Ireland.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22I made that very, very clear.
0:08:22 > 0:08:24But the purpose of the meeting was to honour these terrorists.
0:08:24 > 0:08:26As you went to all these hardline Republican meetings,
0:08:26 > 0:08:29they were backed by the IRA and its apologists.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31At any time publicly, did you urge them to give up
0:08:31 > 0:08:32the bomb and the bullet?
0:08:32 > 0:08:35I always said that the bombing process would never work.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37There wasn't a military solution to be found in Northern Ireland.
0:08:37 > 0:08:39I made that very clear.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42I made that very clear in the House of Commons.
0:08:42 > 0:08:47But did you urge the IRA to stop the bombs and the bullets
0:08:47 > 0:08:49or its front people that you did meet all the time?
0:08:49 > 0:08:51I never met the IRA.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54I obviously did meet people from Sinn Fein, as indeed I met
0:08:54 > 0:08:56people from other organisations and I always made the point
0:08:56 > 0:09:00that there had to be a dialogue and a peace process.
0:09:00 > 0:09:03Now a lot of people did a lot of work on this,
0:09:03 > 0:09:06and eventually it was Mo Mowlam as much as anybody else, who managed
0:09:06 > 0:09:07to bring those groups together and she
0:09:07 > 0:09:11used a lot of connections in order to bring those people
0:09:11 > 0:09:14together and I think we should recognise that as...
0:09:14 > 0:09:17We certainly recognise Mo Mowlam, it's your role I'm trying to find
0:09:17 > 0:09:20out, because the former IRA terrorist leader, Shaun O'Callaghan,
0:09:20 > 0:09:22he says quote: "You played no part,
0:09:22 > 0:09:26ever, at any time in promoting peace in Northern Ireland."
0:09:26 > 0:09:30He said the peace you sought was a victory for the IRA.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Well, I've never had a discussion with Shaun O'Callaghan.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35I've no idea why he will say that.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38As far as I'm concerned, the whole process had to be
0:09:38 > 0:09:40that there wasn't going to be a military solution
0:09:40 > 0:09:41in Northern Ireland.
0:09:41 > 0:09:45The Prevention of Terrorism Act that affected a lot of my constituents
0:09:45 > 0:09:47was something that was actually criminalising young Irish
0:09:47 > 0:09:49people mainly in Britain but also in Northern Ireland
0:09:49 > 0:09:54and that there had to be a dialogue.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58Now that dialogue did come about.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02We had the first ceasefire, eventually...
0:10:02 > 0:10:04But you don't play in role in that?
0:10:04 > 0:10:07My role was supporting a process which would bring about a dialogue
0:10:07 > 0:10:08and I believe you have to talk.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10The British Government at that time was putting
0:10:10 > 0:10:13a broadcasting ban on Sinn Fein, a travel ban on Sinn Fein,
0:10:13 > 0:10:16and a series of anti-terror legislations which were not really
0:10:16 > 0:10:22doing anything to bring about fair convictions.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24Remember, I was also the constituency MP for one
0:10:24 > 0:10:29of the Guildford Four, Paul Hill, who was the first
0:10:29 > 0:10:31person arrested under the Prevention of Terrorism Act,
0:10:31 > 0:10:33and eventually was freed.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36But that doesn't mean you had to speak at over 70 hardline
0:10:36 > 0:10:37Republican movements.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40Now you may not have heard of or dealt with Shaun O'Callaghan
0:10:40 > 0:10:43but you will have heard of and met the highly respected Sheamus Mallon.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46He was one of the architects of the peace process.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49He was at the heart of it along with John Hume.
0:10:49 > 0:10:54Sheamus Mallon says quote: "He never heard anyone mention Corbyn
0:10:54 > 0:10:57at all in the peace process but you very clearly took the side
0:10:57 > 0:11:00of the IRA and that was incompatible with working with peace."
0:11:00 > 0:11:02Sheamus Mallon.
0:11:02 > 0:11:04He never said that to me in Parliament.
0:11:04 > 0:11:05He said it.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07I don't doubt he said it at some point.
0:11:07 > 0:11:08I was happy to talk with him.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11Happy to work with him and John Hume and others
0:11:11 > 0:11:14in Parliament, and I was a member of the Northern Ireland Committee
0:11:14 > 0:11:16of the PLP in which we visited Northern Ireland and met
0:11:16 > 0:11:22men people there.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24many people there.
0:11:24 > 0:11:32Isn't it the truth, is it, that you basically supported
0:11:32 > 0:11:34the arms struggle for a united Ireland but now
0:11:34 > 0:11:36you want to be Prime Minister, you have to distance
0:11:36 > 0:11:37yourself from it?
0:11:37 > 0:11:38No.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40What I want is peace.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43What I want is to learn the lessons from Northern Ireland and also
0:11:43 > 0:11:45to make sure that during the Brexit negotiations, we don't return
0:11:45 > 0:11:48to or receive any kind of hard border between the north
0:11:48 > 0:11:49and the republic.
0:11:49 > 0:11:50and the Republic.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53Well but you see we look at your record and we can't find
0:11:53 > 0:11:56evidence of you urging the IRA to put away its guns
0:11:56 > 0:11:58and its bombs and then we see your Shadow Chancellor,
0:11:58 > 0:12:00John McDonnell, he said he honoured those involved
0:12:00 > 0:12:01in the IRA arms struggle.
0:12:01 > 0:12:02That was his words.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04He backed the bombs and the bullets, his words.
0:12:04 > 0:12:07Your Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, said an IRA victory
0:12:07 > 0:12:09against the British state would be a victory for all of us.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11You've surrounded yourself with like-minded IRA supporters.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13John McDonnell apologised for those remarks on Question Time.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15Only because they became public.
0:12:15 > 0:12:16Well, he apologised for those remarks.
0:12:16 > 0:12:17The position...
0:12:17 > 0:12:18He made them in 2003.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21Andrew, the position has to be that we want peace around the world.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23But in 2003, the peace process was well underway
0:12:23 > 0:12:29and your Shadow Chancellor said he honoured the IRA arms struggle.
0:12:29 > 0:12:30He withdrew those remarks.
0:12:30 > 0:12:31He's apologised for those remarks.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34I've made it very, very clear, that I think what has happened
0:12:34 > 0:12:35in Northern Ireland...
0:12:35 > 0:12:37listen, a lot of people lost
0:12:37 > 0:12:39their lives in Northern Ireland, it was an appalling situation.
0:12:39 > 0:12:40IRA killed 1800 people.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43Yes.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46And the people killed by Loyalist bombs as well.
0:12:46 > 0:12:47All deaths are appalling, all deaths are wrong,
0:12:47 > 0:12:50there isn't a military solution to a conflict and traditions
0:12:50 > 0:12:54between communities.
0:12:54 > 0:13:01There has to be a better way and a better process of doing it.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03But most people watching tonight, they won't know that
0:13:03 > 0:13:09you were so close to the hardline Republicans and to the apologists
0:13:09 > 0:13:12and to the IRA, don't you think they won't just be surprised,
0:13:12 > 0:13:13they'll be quite appalled by it?
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Andrew, people watching tonight, they will want to know that they've
0:13:16 > 0:13:18got a government that's serious about their security
0:13:18 > 0:13:21and their safety and also serious about ensuring we look to how
0:13:21 > 0:13:23we deal with be issues in the future.
0:13:23 > 0:13:24We mentioned Libya a few moments ago.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27I think we have to look at these issues as the immediate security,
0:13:27 > 0:13:29the collective security and the longer term
0:13:29 > 0:13:31foreign policy issues.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33If I look at all the IRA atrocities from the
0:13:33 > 0:13:37Harrods bomb, through to Eniskillen, Lisbon, Omagh, not
0:13:37 > 0:13:47once is there a record of you condemning that.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49And every time you voted, 56 times against giving
0:13:49 > 0:13:51the security forces more powers, why would people trust
0:13:51 > 0:13:58you with our security?
0:13:58 > 0:14:00Andrew, on the Anti-terrorist Legislation, that came before
0:14:00 > 0:14:02Parliament, I voted to ensure there was legal oversight of our
0:14:02 > 0:14:04police and our security services.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06That there wasn't executive power given.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08But you voted 56 times against toughening
0:14:08 > 0:14:10up our security capabilities?
0:14:10 > 0:14:11Can I finish for a moment?
0:14:11 > 0:14:14Of course.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17David Davis and a number of others voted with me on those occasions
0:14:17 > 0:14:19because they too were concerned about executive powers and executive
0:14:19 > 0:14:22orders overriding a court process and I think the best defence
0:14:22 > 0:14:24against terrorism, the best defence against any attack on democracy
0:14:24 > 0:14:27is to protect the independence of a judicial process away
0:14:27 > 0:14:36from the political process and the Prevention of Terrorism Act
0:14:40 > 0:14:43was eventually repealed...
0:14:43 > 0:14:44We're not just talking about that.
0:14:44 > 0:14:45I realise that.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47...Was eventually repealed, partly because of the executive
0:14:47 > 0:14:49powers that were implicit in it.
0:14:49 > 0:14:50Let me turn to NATO.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52It's the military alliance that all previous Labour and Tory
0:14:52 > 0:14:55governments think has kept this nation and the West safe
0:14:55 > 0:14:56for more than seven decades.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58It was created by a Labour government.
0:14:58 > 0:14:59But you've called NATO, "a very dangerous Frankenstein
0:14:59 > 0:15:02of an organisation, a danger to world peace."
0:15:02 > 0:15:04Two years ago you said it should be wound up.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06Do you still believe that?
0:15:06 > 0:15:09What I've always believed is that NATO was a product in 1948
0:15:09 > 0:15:11of the awful trajectory of the Cold War.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14We had the Warsaw Pact, which was formed a little bit later
0:15:14 > 0:15:19on one side and NATO on the other.
0:15:19 > 0:15:201990, the Berlin Wall came down.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22The end of the Soviet Union.
0:15:22 > 0:15:29Should it be wound up?
0:15:29 > 0:15:32I thought at that point, when we were into a process
0:15:32 > 0:15:34of rapprochement across Europe, Gorbachev and a common European
0:15:34 > 0:15:37home, maybe that was the time for the organisation of Security
0:15:37 > 0:15:39and Corporation in Europe to take over, sadly, that didn't happen.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43I think the role of NATO now has to be to build good relations
0:15:43 > 0:15:45with the neighbours and insist on democracy and human
0:15:45 > 0:15:47rights being part of that agenda of good relations.
0:15:47 > 0:15:49But it was only three years ago
0:15:49 > 0:15:51that you called it a very dangerous Frankenstein
0:15:51 > 0:15:53and a danger to world peace.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56Do you still believe that or not?
0:15:56 > 0:15:59I want to work within Nato to achieve stability.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02I want to work within Nato to promote human rights
0:16:02 > 0:16:04and democracy, and under a Labour government, that's exactly
0:16:04 > 0:16:05what we'd be doing.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08But do you think it's a Frankenstein?
0:16:08 > 0:16:11I think all organisations need to be accountable.
0:16:11 > 0:16:13So have you changed your views on Nato?
0:16:13 > 0:16:14No.
0:16:14 > 0:16:15So you still think...
0:16:15 > 0:16:19Can I finish my sentence, please?
0:16:19 > 0:16:21You could if you answered my question.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24Andrew, Nato exists.
0:16:24 > 0:16:28It was a product initially of the Atlantic Charter in 1942...
0:16:28 > 0:16:31We know the history, Mr Corbyn, but I'm trying to work out
0:16:31 > 0:16:34if you would be a committed supporter of Nato, as every
0:16:34 > 0:16:37previous Prime Minister of this country has been.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40I would be a committed member of that alliance
0:16:40 > 0:16:43in order to promote peace, justice, human rights and democracy.
0:16:43 > 0:16:49And I believe that we can make a positive contribution on that.
0:16:49 > 0:16:50Let's turn to nuclear weapons.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54You're a lifelong campaigner for unilateral nuclear disarmament.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57So under your leadership, Labour's support for the renewal
0:16:57 > 0:17:01of the Trident deterrent is not credible, is it?
0:17:01 > 0:17:08That's what the Labour conference and parliament have decided to do.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11I will also ensure that we play
0:17:11 > 0:17:13a full part in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty
0:17:13 > 0:17:15to bring about multilateral nuclear disarmament around the world.
0:17:15 > 0:17:21But we will also have a security review to look at the other issues
0:17:21 > 0:17:23that we face such as the cyber threat which was obviously
0:17:23 > 0:17:26very serious to our National Health Service only a week ago,
0:17:26 > 0:17:28as well as, of course, the issues that have come
0:17:28 > 0:17:31to the front because of the tragedy of Manchester last week.
0:17:31 > 0:17:32Let's clarify Trident.
0:17:32 > 0:17:33Do you support the renewal...
0:17:33 > 0:17:35It's there in the programme.
0:17:35 > 0:17:37That's not what I asked you, Mr Corbyn.
0:17:37 > 0:17:39Do you support the renewal of Trident?
0:17:39 > 0:17:42Everybody knows I voted against the renewal of it,
0:17:42 > 0:17:46because I wanted to go in a different direction.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48That is the decision that's been taken.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50I respect that decision.
0:17:50 > 0:17:52But can you tell the British people tonight that you support
0:17:52 > 0:17:53the renewal of Trident?
0:17:53 > 0:17:56We're going ahead with the programme which has been agreed by Parliament
0:17:56 > 0:17:58and voted on by the Labour Party.
0:17:58 > 0:17:59Do you support it?
0:17:59 > 0:18:01Listen, my views on nuclear weapons are well known.
0:18:01 > 0:18:11I want to achieve a nuclear-free world to multilateral disarmament
0:18:13 > 0:18:15through multilateral disarmament
0:18:15 > 0:18:15and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17So you don't support it?
0:18:17 > 0:18:18I support a nuclear-free world.
0:18:18 > 0:18:21I want to bring about peace and I also want us to focus
0:18:21 > 0:18:24on what I believe to be serious threats like cyber security
0:18:24 > 0:18:25and terrorism.
0:18:25 > 0:18:27I understand that, but we need a simple answer
0:18:27 > 0:18:28to a simple question.
0:18:28 > 0:18:29You've had the answer.
0:18:29 > 0:18:31You cannot say to the British people tonight that
0:18:31 > 0:18:33"I, Jeremy Corbyn, will support the renewal of Trident".
0:18:33 > 0:18:34It's there in the programme.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36But you can't bring yourself to say that.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39We are going to pursue that and at the same time negotiate
0:18:39 > 0:18:41multilateral disarmament and a nuclear-free world.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44Listen, do we really want to live in a world where there's a danger
0:18:44 > 0:18:45of a nuclear holocaust?
0:18:45 > 0:18:46No, we don't.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48So why don't you say you're against it?
0:18:48 > 0:18:52I've made the point of the position that we are adopting as a party
0:18:52 > 0:18:55and we will take into government.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57Will the defence review that you want to call
0:18:57 > 0:18:59if you become prime minister, will that include Trident?
0:18:59 > 0:19:02It will include a look at the role of nuclear weapons.
0:19:02 > 0:19:03So you could ditch it right away.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07It will look at the totality, as every other government
0:19:07 > 0:19:09assuming office has had a strategic defence review.
0:19:09 > 0:19:17There are many senior people in our armed forces who also want us
0:19:17 > 0:19:19to focus as well on the issues I've mentioned
0:19:19 > 0:19:21of cyber security and terrorism.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23I understand that, but let's just clarify this tonight.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25You cannot tell the British people that you are in favour
0:19:25 > 0:19:28of the renewal of Trident, but you do want a defence review
0:19:28 > 0:19:31and that will include Trident, and you could get rid of it.
0:19:31 > 0:19:37It would include the role of nuclear weapons and other issues.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40So you could get rid of it?
0:19:40 > 0:19:42Listen, it's there in the programme, what's going ahead.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44Let's turn to domestic policy.
0:19:44 > 0:19:45Unemployment is now at a 40-year low.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48We're one of the fastest growing major advanced economies.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52Companies flock to invest in the United Kingdom,
0:19:52 > 0:19:55but you're now promising a massive spending binge.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58It's to be funded by more borrowing and huge tax rises on the very
0:19:58 > 0:20:01businesses and people that have helped to create over
0:20:01 > 0:20:022 million extra jobs.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04Don't you risk our economic recovery?
0:20:04 > 0:20:0895% of the population will pay no more tax under Labour,
0:20:08 > 0:20:13no more national insurance and no higher VAT.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16What we have is a country where 6 million people earn less
0:20:16 > 0:20:17than the living wage.
0:20:17 > 0:20:19We have a country where there are unprecedented waiting times
0:20:19 > 0:20:23and waiting lists in our hospitals, a million people denied social care
0:20:23 > 0:20:27and an increasing number of people sleeping on our streets.
0:20:27 > 0:20:32This has to be the time that we stop making the poorest in our society
0:20:32 > 0:20:36pay the price of austerity and start investing for the future.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40We're proposing an investment bank which would invest
0:20:40 > 0:20:43in all parts of this country, particularly those areas that have
0:20:43 > 0:20:46seen precious little investment since the end of the coal industry
0:20:46 > 0:20:49and in some places since the end of the steel industry.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52You say 95% of the country won't pay extra income
0:20:52 > 0:20:55tax, but the Institute for Fiscal Studies,
0:20:55 > 0:20:58which is a pretty independent arbitrator of these things
0:20:58 > 0:21:02at elections, says there is no way that tens of billions of pounds
0:21:02 > 0:21:05of tax rises would affect only a small group at the very top.
0:21:05 > 0:21:07No way.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11They say your plans "Would not work".
0:21:11 > 0:21:13No, they haven't said they will not work.
0:21:13 > 0:21:15They did.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19They have looked at our programme.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22They have been through the funding of it, and I'm pleased they have.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24They've done the same with the Conservatives.
0:21:24 > 0:21:28What they're saying is that you would have to collect your
0:21:28 > 0:21:31new taxes as well as the increase in corporation tax, obviously.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34You would have to be assiduous in chasing down
0:21:34 > 0:21:36tax evasion, obviously.
0:21:36 > 0:21:42They've also said that our investment would bring
0:21:42 > 0:21:47about a better society and a more harmonious society.
0:21:47 > 0:21:51They said that you're going for the highest ever
0:21:51 > 0:21:54peacetime level of taxation, the highest ever.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57Well, they're not correct on that, actually, because the level
0:21:57 > 0:22:00of corporation tax we're proposing to go to would be 26%,
0:22:00 > 0:22:03which is actually less than it was in 2010.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06But they're talking about the overall level of taxation,
0:22:06 > 0:22:08which would be the highest ever in peacetime,
0:22:08 > 0:22:10under a Corbyn government.
0:22:10 > 0:22:15I dispute that figure, but OK, we'll have that debate with the IFS.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17But this election is about a choice.
0:22:17 > 0:22:18The choice is this.
0:22:18 > 0:22:23Do we continue underfunding health, expecting headteachers to collect
0:22:23 > 0:22:26from parents to pay the teachers?
0:22:26 > 0:22:29Do we continue with the horrors of unfunded social care
0:22:29 > 0:22:32and a waiting list for social care?
0:22:32 > 0:22:36Do we continue with a housing crisis that affects the homeless right
0:22:36 > 0:22:38through to the more middle classes whose children can't
0:22:38 > 0:22:40find somewhere to live?
0:22:40 > 0:22:42Or do we invest for the future?
0:22:42 > 0:22:45Our offer is, we will invest for the future.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49Invest in the future of our children.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51And part of the investing in the future, you plan
0:22:51 > 0:22:53to borrow a lot to do that.
0:22:53 > 0:22:59How much will you borrow?
0:22:59 > 0:23:01What we will do is, for the public ownership elements,
0:23:01 > 0:23:04that will be in exchange for bonds for shares in it.
0:23:04 > 0:23:05What's a bond?
0:23:05 > 0:23:06It's a debt instrument.
0:23:06 > 0:23:07It's borrowing.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10The bond is a government bond which would be serviced
0:23:10 > 0:23:12by the income from that service.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14But in addition, we would have control of it.
0:23:14 > 0:23:18But you would still have to borrow.
0:23:18 > 0:23:23Take the water industry, for example, which has been a method
0:23:23 > 0:23:27of siphoning off profits out of this country to offshore companies who've
0:23:27 > 0:23:30made a lot of money, at the same time leaving us
0:23:30 > 0:23:33with expensive water and in some cases very bad levels of pollution.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36But you would need to borrow to buy the utilities.
0:23:36 > 0:23:40No, it's a swap of the shares for a government bond.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43But if you're issuing bonds, you're issuing government debt.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45You are borrowing.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48Issuing bonds that we own, which would be paid
0:23:48 > 0:23:50for by the profits...
0:23:50 > 0:23:53But you said you would cut the water utilities' profits.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56That means you wouldn't have the money to pay for the bond.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59Instead of profits being siphoned off, they would remain here.
0:23:59 > 0:24:00That's an advantage, surely?
0:24:00 > 0:24:05National debt's already an incredible 1.7 trillion.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08If you borrow to invest on top of the 50 we do,
0:24:08 > 0:24:11you say you need to borrow another 25 to nationalise.
0:24:11 > 0:24:13You may have to borrow, if the IFS is right,
0:24:13 > 0:24:14for day-to-day spending.
0:24:14 > 0:24:16No, we will not borrow for day-to-day spending.
0:24:16 > 0:24:19But you might have to if the IFS is right.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21Our national debt, which has already soared under the current government,
0:24:21 > 0:24:25would soar even more under Labour, wouldn't it?
0:24:25 > 0:24:28No, because we have the rule that we would only borrow
0:24:28 > 0:24:30to invest for the future.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33We would not borrow for revenue expenditure.
0:24:33 > 0:24:38That's a sensible rule.
0:24:38 > 0:24:42And what we'd get in return is investment in better services.
0:24:42 > 0:24:47That in turn would encourage economic growth.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50Listen, we have a huge imbalance of investment.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52Far too much goes to London and the south-east in
0:24:52 > 0:24:56transport infrastructure.
0:24:56 > 0:24:58Far too little goes to the north-east,
0:24:58 > 0:25:00north-west and Yorkshire.
0:25:00 > 0:25:02Those issues have to be addressed, hence the national investment bank
0:25:02 > 0:25:05which will be regionally based across the UK.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07For people watching tonight who are looking for the Government
0:25:07 > 0:25:10to reduce immigration numbers, Labour's not the party
0:25:10 > 0:25:17and you're not the leader to deliver that, are you?
0:25:17 > 0:25:18We are in favour of managed immigration when
0:25:18 > 0:25:21the free movement ends when we leave the European Union.
0:25:21 > 0:25:25We are against people being brought in as wholesale workforces
0:25:25 > 0:25:29to undermine existing working conditions and workers.
0:25:29 > 0:25:31There will be managed migration in the future,
0:25:31 > 0:25:38based on the economic needs of our society.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41We have had Theresa May promising in three elections to make
0:25:41 > 0:25:41cuts to immigration.
0:25:41 > 0:25:43I'm making no promises on that.
0:25:43 > 0:25:46What I'm saying is that the immigration issue would be dealt
0:25:46 > 0:25:49with on the basis of necessary family reunions and also
0:25:49 > 0:25:50the economic needs of the country.
0:25:50 > 0:25:54Would you try to cut the numbers?
0:25:54 > 0:25:58Well, if the economy is doing well and we train people properly,
0:25:58 > 0:26:01then the need to bring in skilled workers from overseas
0:26:01 > 0:26:05will obviously reduce.
0:26:05 > 0:26:09Mr Corbyn, many voters in this election, it will be the first time
0:26:09 > 0:26:11they've had a chance to look at you
0:26:11 > 0:26:12as a potential Prime Minister.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15You've been a backbencher for most of your life,
0:26:15 > 0:26:16never a government minister.
0:26:16 > 0:26:16That's an honourable position.
0:26:16 > 0:26:17Indeed it is.
0:26:17 > 0:26:19So how should people judge you?
0:26:19 > 0:26:22Should they listen to those who know you best, your MPs?
0:26:22 > 0:26:25Your own backbenchers, John Woodcock, a Labour MP,
0:26:25 > 0:26:28says "I will not countenance ever voting to make Jeremy Corbyn
0:26:28 > 0:26:30Britain's Prime Minister".
0:26:30 > 0:26:32Neil Coyle, a Labour MP, says "The reason why lifelong Labour
0:26:32 > 0:26:35voters aren't backing us is Jeremy Corbyn".
0:26:35 > 0:26:38Alan Johnson, former Labour Home Secretary,
0:26:38 > 0:26:42says you're "useless, incompetent and incapable".
0:26:42 > 0:26:45That's the people that know you.
0:26:45 > 0:26:49Listen, this manifesto has been agreed by everyone in our party.
0:26:49 > 0:26:53This manifesto has enormous levels of public support.
0:26:53 > 0:26:55This manifesto has been campaigned for day in,
0:26:55 > 0:26:56day out on the streets.
0:26:56 > 0:26:57And do you know what?
0:26:57 > 0:27:00People like the contents of it, because it offers them hope.
0:27:00 > 0:27:02It offers them opportunity.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05It offers our young people an opportunity to get
0:27:05 > 0:27:08the education they want, to get the skilled jobs they want
0:27:08 > 0:27:11and it offers hope in the sense of community cohesion.
0:27:11 > 0:27:16And I invite everyone to have a look at the policies.
0:27:16 > 0:27:18And they will and the policies are there, but the people
0:27:18 > 0:27:20and the leader matters as well.
0:27:20 > 0:27:23What I'm trying to say is, should the people who don't know
0:27:23 > 0:27:28you listen to those who do and follow these judgments?
0:27:28 > 0:27:31I would hope that people would judge me and our party
0:27:31 > 0:27:36on the basis of the principles we're putting forward in this election -
0:27:36 > 0:27:43an investment for our future, a better future for younger people
0:27:43 > 0:27:46in our society, proper treatment of those who need help and care
0:27:46 > 0:27:49and support through a social care system, and an education system that
0:27:49 > 0:27:53doesn't undermine our children with a lack of funding.
0:27:53 > 0:27:55I have one final question.
0:27:55 > 0:27:58Listen, I've spent my life in politics trying to get social
0:27:58 > 0:28:00justice for everybody.
0:28:00 > 0:28:02I relish the opportunity of doing the same in government.
0:28:02 > 0:28:06Of course you do, but why should the voters trust you when so many
0:28:06 > 0:28:10even of your own MPs don't trust you?
0:28:10 > 0:28:13Well, you could have quite easily got quotes from a number of people
0:28:13 > 0:28:16who would say positive things.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19Not nearly as many. 180 had no confidence in you.
0:28:19 > 0:28:25You chose not to do that, and that, Andrew, is your choice.
0:28:25 > 0:28:28And it will be the choice of the people on June 8th.
0:28:28 > 0:28:38Jeremy Corbyn, thank you.
0:29:01 > 0:29:05Step in the arena, Arsenal, Chelsea.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08We've scrapped, scored, hurt, humbled.
0:29:08 > 0:29:12Never back down. Never look back.