:00:09. > :00:13.Just ten days of campaigning until the general election when voters
:00:14. > :00:18.will decide who represents them in Parliament and who will lead the
:00:19. > :00:23.country. Which party leader has the best plan for the future? Tonight, I
:00:24. > :00:25.am joined Labour leader of the Scottish National Party and the
:00:26. > :00:31.First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon. -- I am joined by the
:00:32. > :00:55.leader of the Scottish National Party.
:00:56. > :01:01.The SNP has governed Scotland for ten years,
:01:02. > :01:03.so can we start by agreeing that the performance
:01:04. > :01:05.of Scottish public services is the responsibility
:01:06. > :01:09.Er, I take responsibility for the performance
:01:10. > :01:13.although Scotland's overall budget, of course,
:01:14. > :01:17.taken at Westminster and our budget has been reduced over the years
:01:18. > :01:21.since the Conservatives have been in office.
:01:22. > :01:23.Let's start, then, with Alex Salmond's former Head
:01:24. > :01:28."The evidence shows that we - the SNP -
:01:29. > :01:32.redistributed wealth, improved education or
:01:33. > :01:38.The sad truth is that pretty much everything we have done
:01:39. > :01:43.Well, it won't surprise you to hear, Andrew, I don't agree
:01:44. > :01:47.Let me take education, for example, because it's something I have said
:01:48. > :01:50.is my top priority and it's something I have recognised we've
:01:51. > :01:53.got more work to do on, but it's not true to say
:01:54. > :01:56.that we haven't seen improvements in Scottish education.
:01:57. > :01:59.If you take the attainment gap, for example, and take Level 5
:02:00. > :02:02.qualifications, which are broadly equivalent
:02:03. > :02:05.to the old O Grades and Standard Grades in Scotland, we've seen more
:02:06. > :02:07.young people achieve those, but we've also seen the gap
:02:08. > :02:11.between the richest pupils and the poorest pupils almost half.
:02:12. > :02:14.We've also seen the numbers of the poorest pupils that leave
:02:15. > :02:17.school with no qualifications halve as well.
:02:18. > :02:19.So there's real progress being made, but I make
:02:20. > :02:22.no bones of the fact that
:02:23. > :02:25.I want us to make more progress, which is why we've now got a major
:02:26. > :02:27.programme of reform under way in Scottish education.
:02:28. > :02:31.I'm going to come on to education and the details in a minute.
:02:32. > :02:34.But overall, this former Head of Policy for Mr Salmond,
:02:35. > :02:49.I don't accept that the facts and figures bear out that assessment.
:02:50. > :02:52.You've said we'll come on to education, I'm happy to do so.
:02:53. > :02:54.If you take health, for example, we've increased the health
:02:55. > :02:57.We've got the best performing Accident
:02:58. > :03:01.And I'm going to come on to health in a minute or two.
:03:02. > :03:04.Let me start with the Scottish economy.
:03:05. > :03:06.Because it's now growing at less than a quarter
:03:07. > :03:10.It could be on the brink of recession.
:03:11. > :03:13.Don't you think that you should end your obsession with independence
:03:14. > :03:14.and start generating some growth in Scotland?
:03:15. > :03:17.Well, again, let me take the facts and figures on the economy.
:03:18. > :03:20.The UK as a whole has seen growth slowing.
:03:21. > :03:25.Well, we've also had the issues, the problems with North Sea oil
:03:26. > :03:27.and gas, which has fed through the Scottish supply chain.
:03:28. > :03:30.But if you look at the GDP performance in Scotland now
:03:31. > :03:32.the recovery from the prerecession level of GDP has actually been
:03:33. > :03:38.unemployment is now lower than it is across the UK,
:03:39. > :03:40.we've seen productivity increase at a faster rate
:03:41. > :03:45.So as on education, as on health, I'm not sitting here and saying
:03:46. > :03:49.there's not a big job of work for an SNP Government to do,
:03:50. > :03:50.but your assessment that, you know, in everything
:03:51. > :03:54.you want to point to, there's no progress,
:03:55. > :03:56.is just flatly wrong and the facts and figures bear that out.
:03:57. > :03:59.Well, it was Mr Bell that was pointing to that, not me.
:04:00. > :04:01.Well, I don't agree with Mr Bell's assessment.
:04:02. > :04:04.On the Scottish economy - last year, the UK economy
:04:05. > :04:07.The Scottish economy grew by less than half a percent.
:04:08. > :04:13.But you know as well as I do that the difficulties that have been
:04:14. > :04:16.experienced in the oil and gas sector have a disproportionately
:04:17. > :04:19.heavy effect in Scotland because of the importance of that
:04:20. > :04:21.sector to the Scottish economy, so that has been one
:04:22. > :04:25.of the reasons why we've seen a difference in performance.
:04:26. > :04:32.But if I look at the recovery of GDP in Scotland from the prerecession
:04:33. > :04:34.level, it's 1.8% higher, it's less than that
:04:35. > :04:38.in the rest of the UK, and employment is doing well,
:04:39. > :04:40.unemployment is lower, we are outperforming the UK in youth
:04:41. > :04:46.You could be on the brink of a recession.
:04:47. > :04:48.Well, I am working very hard with the Scottish Government
:04:49. > :04:54.But we saw figures for the UK GDP just at the end of the week that
:04:55. > :04:57.showed that there is also a slowing of growth because of
:04:58. > :05:00.And Scotland is not immune from the impact of the Brexit vote.
:05:01. > :05:03.But why would the Brexit effect have a bigger impact on Scotland
:05:04. > :05:07.It hasn't had an effect on British groeth.
:05:08. > :05:09.It hasn't had an effect on British growth.
:05:10. > :05:13.If you listen to what I was saying, I wasn't saying the Brexit effect
:05:14. > :05:14.has had a bigger impact, I actually was saying
:05:15. > :05:17.that the reason for the different performance in the Scottish economy
:05:18. > :05:19.is the difficulties in the oil and gas sector.
:05:20. > :05:23.I think there is - and will continue to be -
:05:24. > :05:25.a Brexit effect in our economy, but if you listen
:05:26. > :05:33.I was not saying that that was greater in Scotland
:05:34. > :05:37.I was pointing to the particular issues in the oil and gas sector.
:05:38. > :05:40.Your Finance Minister, Mr Mackay, he blamed the economic reality
:05:41. > :05:44.Well, my view is, there is an impact of Brexit we're seeing in terms
:05:45. > :05:47.of the value of sterling and the inflation effects in our economy.
:05:48. > :05:49.But, you know, what you've asked me about...
:05:50. > :05:52.I don't understand why Brexit would have a disproportionately
:05:53. > :05:56.But that's what your Finance Minister did.
:05:57. > :05:58.Well, you're putting something to me that I haven't argued.
:05:59. > :06:01.5th April 2017, Derek Mackay: The new economic figures -
:06:02. > :06:04.these are the bad ones I've given - reflected, quote, "The economic
:06:05. > :06:07.But he wasn't saying that that was disproportionate in Scotland.
:06:08. > :06:09.But you've asked me about the performance
:06:10. > :06:11.of the Scottish economy and I'm saying that whether it's
:06:12. > :06:13.on the recovery of GDP from the prerecession,
:06:14. > :06:16.whether it's on unemployment - which in Scotland, is lower
:06:17. > :06:18.than the UK average - whether it's on productivity.
:06:19. > :06:21.Foreign direct investment into the Scottish economy.
:06:22. > :06:23.We had the latest EY report out last week showing
:06:24. > :06:26.for the fifth year in a row, Scotland is the best performing
:06:27. > :06:29.part of the UK outside of London and the South East.
:06:30. > :06:31.And when it comes to R investment, we're the best
:06:32. > :06:35.We see one in 50 foreign investment projects in Europe
:06:36. > :06:40.So there's much to be positive about in the Scottish economy,
:06:41. > :06:47.Let's come onto education, you mentioned it at
:06:48. > :06:51.It's been clear for some time that Scottish education
:06:52. > :06:54.Official surveys show declines in literacy and numeracy.
:06:55. > :06:56.Scottish schools are plummeting down global league tables.
:06:57. > :07:01.Or are you too busy on the second referendum to get
:07:02. > :07:07.Well, again, as I started out doing, I can point you to a number
:07:08. > :07:09.of indicators that show improvements in Scottish education and
:07:10. > :07:15.So the statistics I gave you earlier on on Level 5 qualifications,
:07:16. > :07:20.not only are we seeing more young people achieving those
:07:21. > :07:22.those qualifications, we're seeing the gap
:07:23. > :07:25.between the richest and the poorest narrow,
:07:26. > :07:28.It's partly because the top 20% aren't doing so well.
:07:29. > :07:30.It's not because the bottom 20% are doing well.
:07:31. > :07:34.The PISA survey, the authoritative global survey, showed
:07:35. > :07:37.that the highest achievers in Scotland were now in decline.
:07:38. > :07:38.They'd gone from 8.8% to just over 7%.
:07:39. > :07:41.Well, if you take Tariff scores in Scottish education,
:07:42. > :07:46.which measure not just the quantity of qualifications that young people
:07:47. > :07:49.get, but the quality as well, it shows that performance in the top
:07:50. > :07:52.20% has improved by about 9%, but the performance in the bottom
:07:53. > :07:58.We've also got more young people - including more of our poorest young
:07:59. > :08:00.people - going into university than has been the case before.
:08:01. > :08:03.Now, I say that simply to set the context.
:08:04. > :08:07.I have been very frank about the fact that I want to see
:08:08. > :08:08.further improvement in Scottish education.
:08:09. > :08:10.So that's why we've got a new National Improvement Framework,
:08:11. > :08:13.it's why we've established an Attainment Fund.
:08:14. > :08:17.I was talking to a headteacher who stopped me in the street yesterday
:08:18. > :08:19.to talk about what he described as the 'life-changing impact'
:08:20. > :08:21.of the new Pupil Equity Fund that we've introduced in
:08:22. > :08:25.So there's progress there to be positive about,
:08:26. > :08:30.There's no progress on what matters, which is reading,
:08:31. > :08:42.Since 2006, on this PISA, the main international study,
:08:43. > :08:44.Scotland has dropped from 11th to 23rd in reading,
:08:45. > :08:46.11th to 24th in maths, 10th to 19th in science.
:08:47. > :08:54.Well, those statistics are from two years ago and I've recognised those.
:08:55. > :08:57.They predate the reform programme that we've put in place.
:08:58. > :09:02.You said we're not improving where it matters.
:09:03. > :09:04.I actually do think the qualifications that our young
:09:05. > :09:06.people are coming out of school with do matter.
:09:07. > :09:08.We're seeing more young people coming out with Highers
:09:09. > :09:12.We're seeing more young people going into university.
:09:13. > :09:14.We're seeing the positive destinations of young people
:09:15. > :09:21.And remember, the record of the SNP Scottish Government was assessed
:09:22. > :09:24.by the Scottish people at the Scottish Parliament election
:09:25. > :09:27.last year and we won that election with a higher share
:09:28. > :09:30.of the constituency vote than any party in the entire lifetime
:09:31. > :09:36.On top of this international study, your own official body on literacy
:09:37. > :09:38.and numeracy came out with some pretty damning figures
:09:39. > :09:43.And if you can't get literacy and numeracy right,
:09:44. > :09:45.I'm not sure what you can get right in education.
:09:46. > :09:50.The Scottish Survey of Literacy and Numeracy.
:09:51. > :09:52.Well, firstly, it's not an organisation, it's a survey
:09:53. > :10:06.It's a sample survey that's based on information in about 12
:10:07. > :10:10.What we are replacing it with is comprehensive data broken
:10:11. > :10:12.down not just by local authority, but school by school.
:10:13. > :10:15.This survey was highly regarded in educational circles, wasn't it?
:10:16. > :10:17.As First Minister, it doesn't tell me anything
:10:18. > :10:20.about the performance of individual schools.
:10:21. > :10:23.So I'm replacing it with something that will give us
:10:24. > :10:30.but data on every pupil, in every school in the country.
:10:31. > :10:33.Informed by standardised assessments.
:10:34. > :10:35.But will you publish the standard assessments for each school?
:10:36. > :10:42.For each school, we will publish the information on the percentage
:10:43. > :10:43.of pupils that are meeting the required levels
:10:44. > :10:52.I want to come back to a point on SSLN because it's important here.
:10:53. > :10:54.Which is the Survey on Literacy and Numeracy.
:10:55. > :10:59.Take the performance of young people at S2,
:11:00. > :11:03.which is where the decline in reading was recorded.
:11:04. > :11:06.That is measuring S2, second year of secondary school pupils,
:11:07. > :11:08.against the standards they are supposed to meet
:11:09. > :11:10.at the end of the third year of secondary school.
:11:11. > :11:13.We have separate data that shows that by the time those S2 pupils
:11:14. > :11:16.come out of third year, more than 80% of them are meeting
:11:17. > :11:19.Now, I'm not suggesting we shouldn't pay a lot
:11:20. > :11:22.of attention to that survey, but what I'm showing is there's
:11:23. > :11:25.a lot of other data in Scottish education which sort of tells
:11:26. > :11:28.a different story from the one you're trying to tell me right now.
:11:29. > :11:31.Except that this survey provided a benchmark and the results were not
:11:32. > :11:33.kind to your policies and you've closed it down,
:11:34. > :11:37.Other global studies have shown Scottish schools
:11:38. > :11:45.Firstly, you've just sat and quoted an international global study to me,
:11:46. > :11:49.the PISA study, which Scottish education is part of.
:11:50. > :11:52.But you pulled out of two others that were global studies, too.
:11:53. > :11:55.Well, we wanted to focus on making sure we got the information that
:11:56. > :11:58.gave us the best picture of how Scottish education was performing.
:11:59. > :12:02.But I have to say, it's an absolute travesty for you to sit here and say
:12:03. > :12:04.to me that in somehow moving from SSLN...
:12:05. > :12:08.If you look at the methodological notes at the end of SSLN,
:12:09. > :12:11.it tells you that that survey is based on something like four
:12:12. > :12:14.pupils per primary school and 12 pupils per secondary school.
:12:15. > :12:18.What we are doing is replacing that sample survey that tells you nothing
:12:19. > :12:20.about local authority performance, it tells you nothing
:12:21. > :12:22.about individual school performance, with comprehensive data.
:12:23. > :12:30.All I'm saying is that this was a highly regarded survey that
:12:31. > :12:35.We are going to be publishing data on every school.
:12:36. > :12:37.I will be much more accountable as a result
:12:38. > :12:40.of the more comprehensive data we're publishing.
:12:41. > :12:43.The Government will be more accountable, local authorities
:12:44. > :12:47.will be more accountable, and we will absolutely be able
:12:48. > :12:49.to track the benefits and the performance of schools,
:12:50. > :12:53.based on the interventions we're now making.
:12:54. > :12:57.The SNP's great boast is that students don't pay tuition fees
:12:58. > :13:00.tuition fees in Scotland, if you're Scottish.
:13:01. > :13:01.You claim it improves social mobility.
:13:02. > :13:05.So why is it twice as hard for a Scottish kid from a deprived
:13:06. > :13:07.background to get to university than an English kid
:13:08. > :13:10.Well, firstly, we're seeing record numbers of Scottish young people
:13:11. > :13:15.OK, but including record numbers of young people from the most
:13:16. > :13:22.Well, the second point, which I'm sure is one that
:13:23. > :13:24.you're well aware of, is the figures don't reflect
:13:25. > :13:27.what is a very important difference between how young people in Scotland
:13:28. > :13:33.A much larger proportion of young people in Scotland do higher
:13:34. > :13:36.education and further education colleges, so what you've just
:13:37. > :13:38.quoted me there doesn't take account of that.
:13:39. > :13:39.But what I'm talking about is universities.
:13:40. > :13:45.Well, correct me if I'm wrong, I think the figure you've probably
:13:46. > :13:46.quoted there is about access to higher education.
:13:47. > :13:49.No, the figure is from people going from school to university,
:13:50. > :13:53.and it's almost twice as tough in Scotland from a poorer
:13:54. > :13:56.The point is, a lot people do higher-education courses
:13:57. > :14:04.Well, some of them do, some of them don't.
:14:05. > :14:05.Right, but I'm talking about universities.
:14:06. > :14:09.Look, I think it is accepted there is a difference in how these
:14:10. > :14:13.I looked at this because you've said this before.
:14:14. > :14:16.By and large, the figures of when you leave school to go
:14:17. > :14:17.to university are comparable for Scotland and England
:14:18. > :14:20.and they show that it's twice as tough if you're
:14:21. > :14:25.We're seeing increases in the number of young people from the poorest
:14:26. > :14:27.backgrounds going to university, that's why we've established
:14:28. > :14:29.a widening Access Commission that is looking at how
:14:30. > :14:38.We're the only part of the UK I think still, today,
:14:39. > :14:39.that has legislated, in terms of fair
:14:40. > :14:42.We've set targets for equal access by 2013.
:14:43. > :14:44.We're funding protected places at university...
:14:45. > :14:47.Only one in 12 at our top universities in Scotland
:14:48. > :14:53.Well, again, you keep sort of changing the parameters of this.
:14:54. > :14:57.Well, you said 'top universities', that's not all universities,
:14:58. > :15:03.Look, are young people from poor backgrounds underrepresented
:15:04. > :15:09.But we are seeing that improve and we have in train a programme
:15:10. > :15:12.Why did you cut maintenance grants for poorer students?
:15:13. > :15:14.We have got the best package of student support
:15:15. > :15:20.It's a combination of grants and loans.
:15:21. > :15:22.In England, of course, bursaries, grants, are being
:15:23. > :15:30.In the last couple of years, we have increased the value
:15:31. > :15:33.of the grant proportion and have increased the income threshold
:15:34. > :15:36.at which young people qualify for the maximum grant.
:15:37. > :15:39.But what we did was establish a minimum income guarantee
:15:40. > :15:41.for students, which is, yes, a combination of grants
:15:42. > :15:45.and loans, but we are protecting the continuation of grants
:15:46. > :15:50.In England, grants, bursaries, have completely been abolished.
:15:51. > :15:53.But grants in Scotland are lower than they were.
:15:54. > :15:57.And grants are what matter to working-class kids.
:15:58. > :15:59.They need them to support themselves through university.
:16:00. > :16:02.Which is why in Scotland we are not abolishing them
:16:03. > :16:08.But also in terms of student debt, we have the lowest average student
:16:09. > :16:11.debt of any of the nations of the UK.
:16:12. > :16:14.Andrew, the point I'm making to you here, is that I don't sit
:16:15. > :16:17.here and say we are perfect, and I don't sit here and say
:16:18. > :16:20.that we don't have challenges to face and work to do to face them,
:16:21. > :16:23.but what I will defend is the progress we are making,
:16:24. > :16:26.and also on things like student debt and student grants, we are actually
:16:27. > :16:29.further advanced in many of these respects than any other part
:16:30. > :16:35.You're always railing against what you call Tory austerity.
:16:36. > :16:37.So why did your members of the Scottish Parliament vote
:16:38. > :16:46.As is the case across the UK, we have a 1% pay cap
:16:47. > :16:54.Can I just explain the position we are in and the action we have
:16:55. > :16:57.taken and what I think needs to happen in the future?
:16:58. > :17:00.We have had that pay cap to try to protect jobs and make sure
:17:01. > :17:03.that we could support a policy of no compulsory redundancies in our NHS.
:17:04. > :17:06.Again, a policy that other parts of the UK don't have.
:17:07. > :17:08.No nurses have been made redundant in England and Wales.
:17:09. > :17:10.12,000 NHS staff have been made redundant.
:17:11. > :17:17.There have been redundancies across the NHS.
:17:18. > :17:21.I would have to double check that, but I think you might be
:17:22. > :17:27.We have a policy of no compulsory redundancies.
:17:28. > :17:30.Let me finish this point, because it's important.
:17:31. > :17:33.We have done two other things that haven't been done
:17:34. > :17:38.We have given bigger increases to those at the lowest end
:17:39. > :17:44.And we have also protected what's called progression as people move
:17:45. > :17:47.That hasn't happened in other parts of the UK.
:17:48. > :17:49.So if you are a newly qualified nurse in Scotland,
:17:50. > :17:52.you are actually paid more than you are in any other part
:17:53. > :17:56.That pay cap has been in place for reasons I don't
:17:57. > :18:01.What I'm saying now is that if we had changed it,
:18:02. > :18:04.we would have seen pressure in other ways, in jobs, for example.
:18:05. > :18:07.But we have sought to protect the lowest income people for that.
:18:08. > :18:10.So if you are a nurse, you are paid more in Scotland
:18:11. > :18:15.If you are a registered staff nurse in Scotland on a 12 hour shift,
:18:16. > :18:19.you will end up with under ?2 less in a 12 hour shift
:18:20. > :18:23.If you are a newly qualified nurse it's about ?300-?400
:18:24. > :18:28.If you are at the lowest level of Agenda For Change,
:18:29. > :18:30.not a nurse, Agenda For Change, it's more than that, about ?1000.
:18:31. > :18:34.I'm making that point to say we have taken action where we can.
:18:35. > :18:37.To finish the point about the future - I have been very clear that
:18:38. > :18:40.as inflation starts to increase, because this pay cap has also been
:18:41. > :18:43.in place and it's not been easy for anybody in the public sector,
:18:44. > :18:45.but it's been in place in times of reasonably low inflation.
:18:46. > :18:48.And you voted to sustain it for another year.
:18:49. > :18:51.And actually we are about to go into negotiations for
:18:52. > :18:55.I have been very clear in our manifesto, which we will publish
:18:56. > :18:58.on Tuesday where we will say more about this, at times
:18:59. > :19:00.of rising inflation, I don't believe pay caps of that
:19:01. > :19:03.nature will continue to be sustainable, so we will set out how
:19:04. > :19:07.So you will change the pay cap in the future?
:19:08. > :19:08.Let me publish the manifesto on Tuesday.
:19:09. > :19:12.But I think if you listen to what I'm saying, you will get
:19:13. > :19:15.a clear hint that we need to have pay deals in the future that
:19:16. > :19:17.are both affordable but recognise the cost of living pressures that
:19:18. > :19:19.public sector workers are working under.
:19:20. > :19:22.We will continue to do what UK governments haven't done
:19:23. > :19:23.in terms of the NHS, and always accept
:19:24. > :19:25.the recommendations of the pay review body.
:19:26. > :19:28.If you do well in this general election, will you use that
:19:29. > :19:30.to strengthen the case for a second
:19:31. > :19:33.This election - we put in our manifesto for the Scottish
:19:34. > :19:37.election last year the idea that Scotland should have
:19:38. > :19:40.a choice at the end - if there was a vote for Brexit -
:19:41. > :19:44.So what this election does, I suppose, is determine
:19:45. > :19:46.whether the people of Scotland think that whether and when Scotland
:19:47. > :19:49.should have a choice about our future, should be
:19:50. > :19:50.a decision for the Scottish Parliament
:19:51. > :19:54.So it will strengthen the case if you do well?
:19:55. > :19:57.We have got that mandate already and it will underline
:19:58. > :20:01.But this election will not decide whether or not Scotland
:20:02. > :20:06.But you called for a second referendum because of Brexit.
:20:07. > :20:09.You said Scotland was being dragged out of the EU against its will.
:20:10. > :20:11.So can you confirm that an independent Scotland
:20:12. > :20:13.would immediately apply for full membership of the EU?
:20:14. > :20:16.I would want an independent Scotland to be a member of the EU.
:20:17. > :20:18.But would it apply for full membership?
:20:19. > :20:21.Well, yes, we would want to be a full member of the EU.
:20:22. > :20:23.You wouldn't settle for an interim deal or just
:20:24. > :20:28.We tried to find compromise ground with the Prime Minister,
:20:29. > :20:31.whereby we would accept we were coming out of the EU,
:20:32. > :20:34.but we would see if we would keep the whole of the UK,
:20:35. > :20:36.and if not that then Scotland, in the single market.
:20:37. > :20:39.But you're talking here in the context of independence.
:20:40. > :20:41.Let me set out clearly, I would want Scotland
:20:42. > :20:45.If, and it is an if, because I don't control the Brexit
:20:46. > :20:48.process and I can't foresee exactly how that will unfold,
:20:49. > :20:51.if Scotland had already been taken out of the EU and there was a period
:20:52. > :20:55.in which we had to get back into the EU, if it was necessary,
:20:56. > :20:57.then we would want to protect our single market membership
:20:58. > :21:00.So there could be an interim arrangement?
:21:01. > :21:03.If that was necessary, but the objective would be,
:21:04. > :21:05.and we have heard people and voices within the Commission,
:21:06. > :21:10.the Deputy Chancellor of Germany, the senior European parliamentarians
:21:11. > :21:13.talk about the fact it would not be a complicated process for Scotland
:21:14. > :21:15.to become a member of the EU if we were independent.
:21:16. > :21:22.I think in this election - because I want Scotland
:21:23. > :21:25.to have a choice, not now, but at the end of
:21:26. > :21:28.the Brexit processed when the options are clear.
:21:29. > :21:31.This election will give Scotland another opportunity.
:21:32. > :21:33.It gives us the opportunity to have our voice heard generally
:21:34. > :21:35.in the House of Commons but specifically in terms
:21:36. > :21:38.of the Brexit negotiations, so we can try to make sure that
:21:39. > :21:41.there's not a deal that is bad for Scotland.
:21:42. > :21:44.The Prime Minister says that there will not be a second
:21:45. > :21:49.If she wins and sticks to that, what will you do?
:21:50. > :21:52.Let's give the people of Scotland the chance to have their say in this
:21:53. > :22:01.And you have covered Scottish politics for a long time,
:22:02. > :22:04.I was going to say probably longer than I've been alive,
:22:05. > :22:06.but that would upset you midway through an interview which probably
:22:07. > :22:10.Not really, I'd just like you to answer the question.
:22:11. > :22:12.What would you do if the Prime Minister does not
:22:13. > :22:17.I think that if the SNP win the election on June 8th in Scotland -
:22:18. > :22:20.and I take nothing for granted - but if the SNP win the election,
:22:21. > :22:23.having won the Scottish election last year on the strength
:22:24. > :22:24.of a manifesto commitment that was very clear,
:22:25. > :22:27.and in the interim the Scottish parliament having backed that,
:22:28. > :22:30.then I think that position of the Prime Minister is unsustainable.
:22:31. > :22:31.But if she doesn't change, what will you do?
:22:32. > :22:36.We have an election in ten days' time -
:22:37. > :22:39.I'm not going to sit here and speculate about that.
:22:40. > :22:41.The truth is, there's not much you can do, is there?
:22:42. > :22:43.I think in politics positions quickly become unsustainable.
:22:44. > :22:46.We have seen in the last few days - and you highlighted this
:22:47. > :22:49.in your interview with her - that this is not a Prime Minister
:22:50. > :22:52.who is very good at holding position when she feels it's under pressure.
:22:53. > :22:55.She's a Prime Minister who has seemed to perfect
:22:56. > :23:01.You say that a vote for the SNP will strengthen your hand
:23:02. > :23:09.And so should Wales and so should Northern Ireland.
:23:10. > :23:12.But again, the Prime Minister has brought about this election.
:23:13. > :23:14.That gives the people of Scotland the opportunity,
:23:15. > :23:17.and I'm saying to people in Scotland, whether you voted Leave
:23:18. > :23:20.or Remain, whether you voted Yes or No in 2014, this
:23:21. > :23:22.is an opportunity to strengthen Scotland's voice in these Brexit
:23:23. > :23:25.talks and strengthen the influence we have in terms of the positions
:23:26. > :23:31.But Mrs May doesn't want you in the talks, and Mr Barnier,
:23:32. > :23:33.the lead EU negotiator, doesn't want you in the talks.
:23:34. > :23:35.I think in terms of the Prime Minister's position,
:23:36. > :23:38.and Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, said not that long ago
:23:39. > :23:42.that she thought Scotland and the Scottish Government and me
:23:43. > :23:44.as First Minister should be involved in deciding
:23:45. > :23:50.So if the SNP wins this election, it strengthens our hand.
:23:51. > :23:54.Because the danger Scotland faces right now, and the danger in my view
:23:55. > :23:57.that the whole of the UK faces right now, is not just Brexit,
:23:58. > :23:59.but the extreme Brexit that is being pursued by the Tories
:24:00. > :24:03.that threatens tens of thousands of jobs in Scotland.
:24:04. > :24:06.So on this, as on so many other things, if you want
:24:07. > :24:09.Scotland's voice to be heard, if you want Scotland's
:24:10. > :24:12.interest to the fore, rather than just Tory MPs
:24:13. > :24:15.who will rubber-stamp whatever Theresa May wants,
:24:16. > :24:17.the only way to secure that is to vote SNP.
:24:18. > :24:20.You complain that powers being sent back to London from Brussels
:24:21. > :24:22.might not be passed on to Edinburgh, but under your plan,
:24:23. > :24:26.any return of powers to Edinburgh, you will then send back to Brussels.
:24:27. > :24:31.These are issues that the people of Scotland will scrutinise
:24:32. > :24:34.and debate if we are in another independence referendum.
:24:35. > :24:37.I believe Scotland as an independent member state of the EU
:24:38. > :24:40.would have a much greater voice than we've had as a part
:24:41. > :24:45.Theresa May is the one who wants to pursue Brexit and wants
:24:46. > :24:50.If that's what she's doing, then to use that as a process
:24:51. > :24:54.to centralise power in the UK, or, in areas that are under
:24:55. > :24:58.the Scotland Act devolved to the Scottish Parliament,
:24:59. > :25:01.I do think that would be unacceptable.
:25:02. > :25:05.If we were in the EU, we would continue to
:25:06. > :25:09.Then you would have to send them back.
:25:10. > :25:14.But we would be representing Scottish interest as a member state.
:25:15. > :25:17.Let's be in no doubt here, what we have is a Prime Minister
:25:18. > :25:20.that seems to want to centralise powers, not just from Scotland,
:25:21. > :25:23.but Wales and Northern Ireland as well, and I think it would be
:25:24. > :25:24.unacceptable to use Brexit to do that.
:25:25. > :25:27.You would rather see Jeremy Corbyn than Theresa May as Prime Minister?
:25:28. > :25:32.I don't want to see a Tory government.
:25:33. > :25:37.I don't particularly like looking at the state of UK politics just now
:25:38. > :25:40.I don't think Jeremy Corbyn is credible as
:25:41. > :25:47.It's got to be one or the other and I think you would
:25:48. > :25:51.I would actually rather see ultimately Scotland be
:25:52. > :25:56.Of course, but that's not the choice, as you've said.
:25:57. > :25:59.I think, even with narrowing polls, I think it's highly likely
:26:00. > :26:02.that the Tories are going to win this election, so what matters
:26:03. > :26:04.for Scotland is that we have the strongest possible voice.
:26:05. > :26:06.We know the damage Tory governments do to Scotland.
:26:07. > :26:09.If you found that your SNP contingent in Westminster
:26:10. > :26:11.was in a pivotal position, because perhaps Mr Corbyn wins,
:26:12. > :26:14.but perhaps not by much, or is only the largest party,
:26:15. > :26:16.would the SNP work with Mr Corbyn to raise taxes
:26:17. > :26:21.We've got our own tax policies and we have put them forward already
:26:22. > :26:24.in terms of the taxes we control in Scotland.
:26:25. > :26:29.UK-wide, would you work with Mr Corbyn to raise taxes?
:26:30. > :26:32.I don't agree with all Jeremy Corbyn's tax policies.
:26:33. > :26:38.And I understand why, so bear with me.
:26:39. > :26:46.If it is, will you work with Mr Corbyn on his tax and spend?
:26:47. > :26:49.We will work for progressive policies, and we will work
:26:50. > :26:51.for the policies we put forward in our manifesto.
:26:52. > :26:54.If there was to be a hung parliament, of course we would look
:26:55. > :26:57.to be part of a progressive alliance that pursued progressive policies.
:26:58. > :26:59.But let's get back to the reality of this election.
:27:00. > :27:02.The reality of this election, even with the narrowing of the polls,
:27:03. > :27:05.is that we are going to face a Tory government perhaps
:27:06. > :27:10.My priority in this election is to say to the people of Scotland,
:27:11. > :27:13.if you want Scotland's interests to be protected and our voice heard,
:27:14. > :27:16.then you've got to vote SNP to make sure that's the case.
:27:17. > :27:18.Voting Tory delivers Tory MPs who will rubber-stamp Theresa May.
:27:19. > :27:21.Voting Labour in Scotland risks letting the Tories in.
:27:22. > :27:23.One final thing on Mr Corbyn - he wants to raise
:27:24. > :27:31.Would you broadly agree with that? No.
:27:32. > :27:33.I don't agree right now with the proposition that we should
:27:34. > :27:36.reduce the headline rate of corporation tax, but I don't
:27:37. > :27:41.What I would like to see, and again my manifesto will say more
:27:42. > :27:43.about this on Tuesday, I think we should be targeting
:27:44. > :27:46.Given the productivity challenge we've got,
:27:47. > :27:48.I think we should be targeting support to encourage businesses
:27:49. > :27:51.to invest in plant and machinery and also to take on workers.
:27:52. > :27:56.Mr Salmond says the Labour manifesto is actually an imitation of the SNP
:27:57. > :28:03.I think it shows Scotland is leading the way in progressive policies.
:28:04. > :28:05.So Scotland is the first Corbynista government?
:28:06. > :28:07.Free tuition, Scotland is leading the way in progressive
:28:08. > :28:12.To answer your question directly, yes, I'm very proud of that.
:28:13. > :28:14.So you are proud of being a forerunner for Mr Corbyn?
:28:15. > :28:17.Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as you know.
:28:18. > :28:20.Nicola Sturgeon, thank you for being with us
:28:21. > :28:27.Thank you. Thank you.