0:00:04 > 0:00:07In just ten days, voters will go to the polls in the general election
0:00:07 > 0:00:10to decide who will represent them in Parliament and who
0:00:10 > 0:00:12will lead the country.
0:00:12 > 0:00:16So which of the party leaders has the best plan for the future
0:00:16 > 0:00:17of the United Kingdom?
0:00:17 > 0:00:23Tonight, I'm joined by the leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57Paul Nuttall, Ukip was established in 1993, it was to get the UK out
0:00:57 > 0:01:00of the European Union.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03You won the referendum, your side, last year,
0:01:03 > 0:01:06so instead of enduring this agonising decline in Ukip's support,
0:01:06 > 0:01:08why not just declare victory and go home?
0:01:08 > 0:01:11Well, we did win.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15As you said, we were set up back in the early 90s to get Britain out
0:01:15 > 0:01:16of the European Union.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18With the referendum I'd say we have won the war,
0:01:18 > 0:01:20what we've got to do now is win the peace.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22The Prime Minister will only start at the negotiations
0:01:22 > 0:01:25with the European Union later in June and Ukip has to be
0:01:25 > 0:01:29on the pitch because if Ukip isn't on the pitch, then there's no real
0:01:29 > 0:01:32impetus for the Prime Minister not to backslide and I believe, I worry,
0:01:32 > 0:01:34that she may backslide with fisheries, or maybe
0:01:34 > 0:01:36there will be a deal on the divorce bill,
0:01:36 > 0:01:39or maybe there will be a deal on freedom of movement.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43What we need is to ensure that Ukip is there so that we get the Brexit
0:01:43 > 0:01:45that we voted for on June the 23rd.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47But when you launched your manifesto last week, your main
0:01:47 > 0:01:48focus wasn't on Europe.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51It was on terrorism and extremism.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54It almost looks like you are flailing around now,
0:01:54 > 0:01:56trying to stay relevant, aren't you?
0:01:56 > 0:01:58Well, no, not at all.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02What we have done is we have led on the agenda of Islamic terrorism
0:02:02 > 0:02:06and we launched our integration agenda about six weeks ago.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09A lot of people within the Westminster bubble felt very
0:02:09 > 0:02:12uncomfortable about it but we are saying things what people
0:02:12 > 0:02:17are thinking and what we've got to do is we've got to get to grips
0:02:17 > 0:02:19with this Islamist cancer within our midst, it needs to be cut
0:02:19 > 0:02:23out because our worry if it isn't, Andrew, then what happened the other
0:02:23 > 0:02:25night in Manchester may well become commonplace.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28Except critics say that your desperation to try to remain
0:02:28 > 0:02:32relevant is taking you into some unsavoury waters here.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37One of your MEPs, Gerard Batten, has called Islam a death cult, Islam.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39Do you agree?
0:02:39 > 0:02:43No, it's language I personally wouldn't use but what I will say,
0:02:43 > 0:02:46and I have openly called Islamic fundamentalism, or radical Islam,
0:02:46 > 0:02:50a cancer within our midst, and I repeat that today.
0:02:50 > 0:02:51But he didn't use "Islamism".
0:02:51 > 0:02:52I wouldn't...
0:02:52 > 0:02:56He said "Islam", one of the world's great religions,
0:02:56 > 0:02:58he called it a death cult.
0:02:58 > 0:03:02Again it's not language that I would use but I want to make it clear...
0:03:02 > 0:03:03Should anybody use it?
0:03:03 > 0:03:04No, not particularly.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06He is your MEP.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09Let me finish.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12It's not language that I would use and the vast majority of Muslims
0:03:12 > 0:03:14in our country are peaceful, they add to our economy,
0:03:14 > 0:03:15they love this country.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18However, there is a small number within that community
0:03:18 > 0:03:21who hate the way we live, hate who we are and want to do us
0:03:21 > 0:03:23harm and we need to do something about it.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26And that's what you would call "Islamist" which is different
0:03:26 > 0:03:27from Islam, but he didn't say "Islamist".
0:03:27 > 0:03:30He also went on to say that Islam is a barbaric religion.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34Does he speak for Ukip?
0:03:34 > 0:03:38No, Gerard is not speaking for Ukip on that.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41What we see is simply that "Islamism" and Islamic
0:03:41 > 0:03:43fundamentalism is a problem.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46It's not just a problem in this country, it's a problem around
0:03:46 > 0:03:48the globe and we've got to come together and do
0:03:48 > 0:03:49something about that.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52And this is the candidate that your party has chosen to stand
0:03:52 > 0:03:53against the Prime Minister.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55He didn't make that distinction.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58Well, I think he has got his terminology wrong and I'll
0:03:58 > 0:04:00be open and honest about that.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03What I will say is that we are the only party that put together
0:04:03 > 0:04:06an integration agenda which I'm not saying, by the way,
0:04:06 > 0:04:08is the answer to everything, but it's the beginning of an answer
0:04:08 > 0:04:11and what we've got to do is bring the communities together to ensure
0:04:11 > 0:04:13that something like this doesn't happen again.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15Is Islam a religion of peace?
0:04:15 > 0:04:18The vast majority of Muslims...
0:04:18 > 0:04:20Absolutely, they are peaceful, they live in this country,
0:04:20 > 0:04:23they love this country, they add to the economy.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26The problem is there is a small number of people
0:04:26 > 0:04:29who need to be sorted out, cut out of society altogether
0:04:29 > 0:04:32and actually what we need to do is we need to ensure that we put
0:04:32 > 0:04:35more police officers on the beat, and we are proposing 20,000
0:04:35 > 0:04:38extra police officers, to ensure that these people
0:04:38 > 0:04:40are caught and brought to justice.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43But you want to ban the burqa?
0:04:43 > 0:04:45Yes.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47How would that cut out, to use your words,
0:04:47 > 0:04:48this small minority?
0:04:48 > 0:04:50How would that possibly stop atrocities like
0:04:50 > 0:04:53the one in Manchester?
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Well, there are a number of examples where the burqa has been
0:04:56 > 0:04:58used in criminality.
0:04:58 > 0:05:03You had, for example, the killing of the female PC back
0:05:03 > 0:05:07in 2005 and the jihadist then escaped this country
0:05:07 > 0:05:10wearing the niqab.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13We had the 21/7 terrorist...
0:05:13 > 0:05:16But he could have used another disguise too, couldn't he?
0:05:16 > 0:05:20The failed bombing on 21/7, one of the people who tried to carry
0:05:20 > 0:05:23out that act of terror escaped wearing a burqa and only
0:05:23 > 0:05:26earlier this month in Manchester eight men were sent down
0:05:26 > 0:05:31for carrying out raids in 2015 and 2016 wearing burqas.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33It's about security and whether we like it or not,
0:05:33 > 0:05:37Andrew, we are the most watched people in the world, OK?
0:05:37 > 0:05:42There is more CCTV in this country than anywhere else on the planet
0:05:42 > 0:05:45and for it to be effective you need to see people's faces.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48But that is only the first part.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52The next part is about integration and what we need to do is we need
0:05:52 > 0:05:54to ensure that communities come together and I would argue that
0:05:54 > 0:05:57to enjoy the full fruits of British society you need to be prepared
0:05:57 > 0:06:00to show your face.
0:06:00 > 0:06:04That may be true, but it would not make any difference in the fight
0:06:04 > 0:06:05against terrorism, would it?
0:06:05 > 0:06:08Well, it's a step towards integration and one of the ways
0:06:08 > 0:06:11that we will win, one of the ways that we will beat these
0:06:11 > 0:06:13Islamic fundamentalists, is by bringing communities together.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16One of the ways you bring communities together
0:06:16 > 0:06:19is you integrate people into British society and if you show your face,
0:06:19 > 0:06:22it allows you to communicate better, it allows you to enter certain
0:06:22 > 0:06:25spheres of employment which they are precluded
0:06:25 > 0:06:27from at this moment in time, so it's about integration.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30It could, though, be seen as a knee jerk reaction.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33Let me suggest another one.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37You now say that where a victim of a grooming gang is of a different
0:06:37 > 0:06:40race or religion to the offenders, it should be an aggregating
0:06:40 > 0:06:41factor in the prosecution.
0:06:41 > 0:06:45What are you on about?
0:06:45 > 0:06:49Well, it's obvious their race and their religion is a factor
0:06:49 > 0:06:53and you only have to look at the 1400 girls who were
0:06:53 > 0:06:54victims in Rotherham.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58You have to look at the girls who were victims in Rochdale
0:06:58 > 0:07:01and the vast majority of these girls are white, they are Christian
0:07:01 > 0:07:05and they were basically groomed by Pakistani men.
0:07:05 > 0:07:08But why does in the end the race or religion matter?
0:07:08 > 0:07:11I think we can agree it is hard to imagine a worse crime
0:07:11 > 0:07:14than the sexual assault of a child and what happened in the cases
0:07:14 > 0:07:18you have just given, but why race or religion?
0:07:18 > 0:07:20Surely whoever does this, they should just be slammed up
0:07:20 > 0:07:25for a very long time regardless of race or religion if found guilty.
0:07:25 > 0:07:27Yes, they should and I would make sentences longer.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30However, race is already an aggravating factor when it comes
0:07:30 > 0:07:35to prosecutions and I think in these cases in terms of grooming,
0:07:35 > 0:07:39for example, it is quite clear that the race of these young girls
0:07:39 > 0:07:43has been taken into consideration by the perpetrators.
0:07:43 > 0:07:47But the law as it stands is if race was a motivating factor,
0:07:47 > 0:07:50if you did something bad and race was a motivating factor...
0:07:50 > 0:07:52I think it is a motivating factor.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55But you are simply saying if they are of a different religion
0:07:55 > 0:07:57or race, that should be an aggregating factor,
0:07:57 > 0:08:00not their motivation, just the very fact that they are not
0:08:00 > 0:08:03white, they are not Christian.
0:08:03 > 0:08:05But it obviously is a motivating factor because these guys
0:08:05 > 0:08:07are not grooming girls from within their own community,
0:08:07 > 0:08:09these girls are being picked because they are white
0:08:09 > 0:08:11and they are Christian.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14Except the courts would have to prove that and that is
0:08:14 > 0:08:15the law at the moment.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19But I think it is obvious when there are 1400 of them in Rotherham.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22You also said that you would like to see the death penalty
0:08:22 > 0:08:24returned for terrorists and child killers.
0:08:24 > 0:08:28Well, that's my own personal view, that isn't Ukip policy.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31You have even said you would act as the executioner yourself.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34I was asked that question by the Mail on Sunday straight out.
0:08:34 > 0:08:36They said, "Do you support the death penalty?"
0:08:36 > 0:08:37I said, "Yes."
0:08:37 > 0:08:40For people like the killers of Lee Rigby where it is quite
0:08:40 > 0:08:43obvious these perpetrators of that crime they are wandering around
0:08:43 > 0:08:46with that man's blood all over their hands and this
0:08:46 > 0:08:49was a British soldier who was pretty much executed on a British street
0:08:49 > 0:08:50by a British citizen.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53As far as I am concerned that is treason.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55And people like Ian Brady who only died last week,
0:08:55 > 0:08:57it has cost us 10 million in taxpayers' money
0:08:57 > 0:08:59to keep that man alive.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02And you said you would be prepared to do the death penalty yourself.
0:09:02 > 0:09:03Well...
0:09:03 > 0:09:05Do you want to be an MP or an executioner?
0:09:05 > 0:09:08Well, I don't want to be Albert Pierrepoint
0:09:08 > 0:09:11when I'm out of politics.
0:09:11 > 0:09:15What I will say is that they asked me that question and if I am
0:09:15 > 0:09:18prepared to stand up and say that I believe in the death penalty,
0:09:18 > 0:09:21then, you know, maybe I would pull the lever on people like Ian Brady
0:09:21 > 0:09:22in the past.
0:09:22 > 0:09:24So you do want to be an executioner?
0:09:24 > 0:09:27I don't want to be an executioner but I believe people like Ian Brady
0:09:27 > 0:09:30who committed awful crimes against children, I don't see why
0:09:30 > 0:09:32British taxpayers have to pay so much money to keep someone
0:09:32 > 0:09:34like that alive.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36You recently said you are also OK with water boarding
0:09:36 > 0:09:40as an interrogation technique.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43No, I used the example when I was talking about
0:09:43 > 0:09:45if you were in a situation where there was an immediate
0:09:45 > 0:09:48terrorist attack on the horizon and we had to get information
0:09:48 > 0:09:50which would save people's lives in this country,
0:09:50 > 0:09:52then I would basically I would use harsh methods.
0:09:52 > 0:09:54You would be OK with it?
0:09:54 > 0:09:57I would use harsh methods.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59You actually said I would probably be OK with it.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01These were your words.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04Let me make this point, I would put the lives of British
0:10:04 > 0:10:06families over the human rights of any jihadi any day.
0:10:06 > 0:10:07Including water boarding?
0:10:07 > 0:10:08Including water boarding.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10Is that party policy?
0:10:10 > 0:10:12No, it's not party policy.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15It's your policy?
0:10:15 > 0:10:17No, look, I just said if we were in a situation
0:10:17 > 0:10:20where there was going to be an immediate attack and people's
0:10:20 > 0:10:22lives were on the line, I would want to see
0:10:22 > 0:10:25British families protected.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28I would put their lives over the human rights of any jihadi.
0:10:28 > 0:10:29You know these are almost never the circumstances
0:10:29 > 0:10:31in which torture is used.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33That is not what water boarding has been used for.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36It has been used to get intelligence and information out of people.
0:10:36 > 0:10:37Yes.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39Are you in favour of that?
0:10:39 > 0:10:41No, and I didn't say that if you listen to
0:10:41 > 0:10:42the whole interview.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45No, I am just finding out if you were.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47No, I'm not, but if you listen to the whole interview I used
0:10:47 > 0:10:50the example if there was an immediate terrorist threat
0:10:50 > 0:10:53to a place like this in London, I would always put the lives
0:10:53 > 0:10:55of British people over the human rights of a jihadi.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58Do you agree with another of your MEPs, Roger Helmer, he says,
0:10:58 > 0:11:01quote, it is time to think the unthinkable and just lock up
0:11:01 > 0:11:02suspected terrorists.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06When you read this morning that there is a suspected 23,000
0:11:06 > 0:11:10jihadis who could be living amongst us, obviously MI5 are stretched
0:11:10 > 0:11:14to capacity at this present moment in time.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18I think we've got to look at ways of ensuring our people are safe...
0:11:18 > 0:11:22Let me finish, whether that is a return to control orders,
0:11:22 > 0:11:25whether that is tagging these people, who knows?
0:11:25 > 0:11:27In the future maybe a return to internment.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29A return to internment?
0:11:29 > 0:11:32Look, we are in a situation now where we are being told
0:11:32 > 0:11:34there are 23,000 possible suspects on our streets who
0:11:34 > 0:11:37want to do us harm.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41Now, if you consider that it costs roughly ?1 million a year to have
0:11:41 > 0:11:4424/7 surveillance on these people, we are talking about
0:11:44 > 0:11:47vast amounts of money.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50Maybe, Andrew, we are just living in a different society.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53I am not saying now is the time to return to this, but I wouldn't
0:11:53 > 0:11:55rule it out in the future.
0:11:55 > 0:11:57So you wouldn't rule out internment perhaps of thousands
0:11:57 > 0:11:58of British citizens.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01You are aware that when internment was introduced in Northern Ireland
0:12:01 > 0:12:04in 1971, it was the biggest recruiting sergeant of the IRA ever.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06You do know that?
0:12:06 > 0:12:10Well, look, what I am saying is in the future, not now,
0:12:10 > 0:12:13maybe we can target these people now, maybe we can return to control
0:12:13 > 0:12:17orders, but I wouldn't take anything off the table in the future.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20Because as I say, look, unless we get a grip on this,
0:12:20 > 0:12:23what happened in Manchester the other night, which is part
0:12:23 > 0:12:26of my constituency, could become commonplace and that is the last
0:12:26 > 0:12:29thing we want to see.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32Let's just take stock then of what you've told us so far
0:12:32 > 0:12:33and what we've discussed.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35Ukip candidates calling Islam barbaric, banning the burqa,
0:12:35 > 0:12:38calling for the death penalty, water boarding in certain
0:12:38 > 0:12:41circumstances, now internment.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45In your desperation to be noticed in this election
0:12:45 > 0:12:48you are becoming pretty extreme, aren't you?
0:12:48 > 0:12:51Hang on, the vast majority of those are not Ukip policy.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53They are your views.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57Hang on, we are not looking to be noticed.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01We are leading the agenda in many ways on this.
0:13:01 > 0:13:04We came back with our integration policy about six weeks ago
0:13:04 > 0:13:07and the Westminster media, the Westminster bubble,
0:13:07 > 0:13:10they all felt very uncomfortable about it so what they did
0:13:10 > 0:13:13is they mocked us and they came up with stupid suggestions saying
0:13:13 > 0:13:15beekeepers would be banned, or bridal-wear would be banned.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19The fact is we are the only ones who are coming up with an agenda
0:13:19 > 0:13:22to try and improve integration in this country.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25I would suggest this to you, it is beyond the Westminster bubble
0:13:25 > 0:13:27that people watching this may feel uncomfortable about the idea of
0:13:27 > 0:13:30locking up suspects without trial.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34Well, let me put it to you this way.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36Firstly, I'll quickly move back onto the burqa thing.
0:13:36 > 0:13:40Polls show time and time again that people agree with me on this.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43Internment is the issue I raised, which is much more serious.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46It is far more serious and as I said we are not
0:13:46 > 0:13:48at that point yet but, I tell you what, if people
0:13:48 > 0:13:51were asked if it would save lives, then people would agree with me
0:13:51 > 0:13:53on that too.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56Let's look at immigration, it's a subject very important to Ukip.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59You propose a one in, one out policy, so to let somebody
0:13:59 > 0:14:04into this country as a migrant somebody else would have to leave.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07That is just a gimmick, isn't it?
0:14:07 > 0:14:10I don't think it's a gimmick at all and no one is talking about putting
0:14:10 > 0:14:11up the drawbridge here.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15The other day when the immigration figures were released it showed that
0:14:15 > 0:14:18339,000 people left this country which means that we would roughly
0:14:18 > 0:14:21allow the same amount of people to come in again,
0:14:21 > 0:14:24but then beneath that there would be an Australian points-based system
0:14:24 > 0:14:27like we have pretty much around the world, except in countries
0:14:27 > 0:14:30within the EU, whereby if you've got the skills that this country needs
0:14:30 > 0:14:34and there is a gap in our economy, please come here and work.
0:14:34 > 0:14:38So the skills system would be on top of the one in, one out?
0:14:38 > 0:14:41We could still have more than one in and one out, then?
0:14:41 > 0:14:44No, that's over a five-year period, so it gives us a lot
0:14:44 > 0:14:45of wriggle room here.
0:14:45 > 0:14:49As I say, we need to get control of immigration in this country.
0:14:49 > 0:14:51The other day it was announced that last year alone,
0:14:51 > 0:14:53a city the size of Hull came to this country.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57If we carry on along this road, if we carry on letting a city
0:14:57 > 0:15:00the size of Birmingham in every four years, we will end up
0:15:00 > 0:15:03with a population of 80 million by the middle of this century,
0:15:03 > 0:15:04which is simply unsustainable.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06But just think how this would work.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09We may, in the years to come, have a desperate need for more
0:15:09 > 0:15:11doctors, more skilled medical people, or for
0:15:11 > 0:15:13high-tech specialists.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16Everybody wants to turn this into a great high-tech country as well.
0:15:16 > 0:15:20But we couldn't bring these skills in from overseas unless somebody
0:15:20 > 0:15:26was prepared to leave the United Kingdom as well.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30Well, look, 339,000 people left this country last year.
0:15:30 > 0:15:34It was 323,000 the year before.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36We're not talking about pulling up the drawbridge
0:15:36 > 0:15:38and not letting anyone in.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40I'm sure that number of skilled people can be incorporated
0:15:40 > 0:15:43into the amount of people that leave the country and then come back in.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46But we cannot bring in 100,000 skills unless at least 100,000 other
0:15:46 > 0:15:49people are prepared to leave.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52But we're not in that situation, are we?
0:15:52 > 0:15:55Because there's over 300,000 people virtually every single year
0:15:55 > 0:15:57leaving this country.
0:15:57 > 0:15:59That's at the moment.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01You don't know what it'll be like in the future.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03Your immigration policy will be determined by the number
0:16:03 > 0:16:05of people prepared to leave.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08But in the meantime, in the meantime, what we need to do
0:16:08 > 0:16:10is to train our own people.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13We need to train our own nurses, our own doctors, our own teachers.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15Therefore you can reduce the amount of people that have
0:16:15 > 0:16:17to come in to fill skills.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19But that takes time, as you know.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21Of course it takes time, but we're saying this would work
0:16:21 > 0:16:22over a five-year period.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25But did you just pluck this policy out of thin air,
0:16:25 > 0:16:27because even your own candidate in Derby North, he said
0:16:27 > 0:16:29the idea was "Stupid".
0:16:29 > 0:16:31We got this idea...
0:16:31 > 0:16:33The first people to put this forward were Frank Field
0:16:33 > 0:16:35from the Labour Party, Nicolas Soames from
0:16:35 > 0:16:36the Conservatives.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39They are talking about balanced migration here, because we have
0:16:39 > 0:16:41realised that somebody has to get a grip on the population
0:16:41 > 0:16:44because otherwise we are going to be in a situation in the future
0:16:44 > 0:16:47where we will have to have a huge school-building programme.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50The NHS, which is fit to bursting at the moment,
0:16:50 > 0:16:52will only be under more pressure.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55We will end up with more motorways, a new rail network.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57It can't continue.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Capital spend will be massive unless we get control of population.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03But as you will know, Derby North, your candidate
0:17:03 > 0:17:05who thinks the idea is stupid, that's the home of Rolls-Royce,
0:17:05 > 0:17:09one of our great British companies.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11He says, "I think it's not practical.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13"I think Rolls-Royce would say it was stupid.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16"And I would agree with them".
0:17:16 > 0:17:17That's your own candidate.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20I don't see how anyone can think it's stupid, because, as I say,
0:17:20 > 0:17:22what we will be bringing in is skilled migration, migrants
0:17:22 > 0:17:24who will add to the economy.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26Migrants who will add to the tax receipts,
0:17:26 > 0:17:28and therefore it will be good news all round.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31It just creates the general impression that in your desperation
0:17:31 > 0:17:34to be noticed in this election - and it's been a struggle for you -
0:17:34 > 0:17:36you are becoming ever more extreme.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39On immigration, you are now more hardline than Nigel Farage.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42We're actually, we have moved on from where we were
0:17:42 > 0:17:44at the last election.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48But between 1970 and 1997, migration was running net
0:17:48 > 0:17:50roughly at around 20,000.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53So we weren't that far off balance in migration in those years anyway.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56Let's move onto Brexit, a matter very important to Ukip.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59And the debate has moved now to the nature of the Brexit deal.
0:17:59 > 0:18:04At some point there will need to be a deal done to give current EU
0:18:04 > 0:18:09residents continuing rights in the UK.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11In your view, how long will they have to have lived
0:18:11 > 0:18:14in the UK to be given those rights?
0:18:14 > 0:18:17Well, look, I mean, we have made it perfectly clear in our general
0:18:17 > 0:18:22election manifesto that the 167,000 EU migrants working
0:18:22 > 0:18:26in the NHS can stay, OK?
0:18:26 > 0:18:28No debate about that.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30But I think once Article 50 had been triggered,
0:18:30 > 0:18:33it's then up for negotiation how long people can stay for.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36So if you are an EU citizen, and you have come in since the end
0:18:36 > 0:18:39of March, when Article 50 was triggered, you won't necessarily
0:18:39 > 0:18:42have a right to remain?
0:18:42 > 0:18:44That will be down to the government of the day.
0:18:44 > 0:18:45I'm asking you who is.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49That'll be down to the government of the day to go into negotiation
0:18:49 > 0:18:51with the European Union, because what we've got to do
0:18:51 > 0:18:53is ensure the rights of British citizens in Spain,
0:18:53 > 0:18:57Portugal, Italy and Greece and everywhere else can stay as well.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59If they come to a satisfactory agreement, whereby British citizens'
0:18:59 > 0:19:03rights are protected in those countries, then I will have
0:19:03 > 0:19:05no problem whatsoever.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08I understand that, but you mention only EU citizens working in the NHS.
0:19:08 > 0:19:09Is that it?
0:19:09 > 0:19:10Yes, at the moment.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12We are going to make that point perfectly clear.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14That's it?
0:19:14 > 0:19:17So others, EU citizens who are teachers, university
0:19:17 > 0:19:19professors, lecturers, they may have to leave?
0:19:19 > 0:19:22But these are people who have come before Article 50 was triggered.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25Those who have come after - and there won't be that many
0:19:25 > 0:19:28who have come after at this present moment in time - will just
0:19:28 > 0:19:30have to wait and see what the Prime Minister comes up
0:19:30 > 0:19:32with in terms of negotiation.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34Let me just clarify this, Mr Nuttall, everybody
0:19:34 > 0:19:36who was here when Article 50 was triggered as a definite
0:19:36 > 0:19:38right to remain?
0:19:38 > 0:19:40Yes.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42With all the same access to services, NHS, in-work
0:19:42 > 0:19:43benefits and schools?
0:19:43 > 0:19:44Yes.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46But after Article 50, that's uncertain.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49If you have just arrived here from Germany or Italy or France,
0:19:49 > 0:19:50you're not quite sure?
0:19:50 > 0:19:52That will all depend on the agreement that
0:19:52 > 0:19:55the Prime Minister can strike with the European Union.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58As we all know, the EU in various ways has been
0:19:58 > 0:20:00demanding billions of pounds, people call it a sort
0:20:00 > 0:20:03of divorce bill.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06Your manifesto says we shouldn't pay a penny.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10But if even a modest sum, not tens and tens of billions,
0:20:10 > 0:20:14but a modest sum secured substantial access for us and continuing access
0:20:14 > 0:20:18to the single market, you wouldn't pay it?
0:20:18 > 0:20:20Well, I don't see why we should.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22Because since the early 1970s when we've been members
0:20:22 > 0:20:25of this organisation, we've handed over ?183 billion net
0:20:25 > 0:20:28to this organisation in membership fee alone.
0:20:28 > 0:20:32I don't see why we should have to pay a divorce
0:20:32 > 0:20:33bill on top of that.
0:20:33 > 0:20:37Look, the EU were just picking figures out of the air on this.
0:20:37 > 0:20:3850 billion...
0:20:38 > 0:20:40But you wouldn't pay anything?
0:20:40 > 0:20:42I don't see why we should.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45We've got 9 billion wrapped up in the European Investment Bank.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47Surely we must own part of EU buildings or real
0:20:47 > 0:20:49estate all over Europe.
0:20:49 > 0:20:53That may be, but if we got into a situation where for a modest,
0:20:53 > 0:20:55but modest to governments, not modest for individuals,
0:20:55 > 0:20:57but modest to governments, ten, 12, 15 billion,
0:20:57 > 0:21:01and in return we would have tariff-free access
0:21:01 > 0:21:05to the European Union, and all the jobs that
0:21:05 > 0:21:08would guarantee and save, you wouldn't pay that?
0:21:08 > 0:21:11Hang on, we are going to get tariff-free access anyway.
0:21:11 > 0:21:13You don't know that.
0:21:13 > 0:21:14I will tell you why.
0:21:14 > 0:21:16The European Union might be a corrupt organisation,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19it might be a bullying organisation, but it isn't a stupid organisation.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22There are millions of jobs on the continent that
0:21:22 > 0:21:24are dependent on British trade.
0:21:24 > 0:21:26We have a huge trading deficit with the European Union.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29Have you asked the Greeks if it's not a stupid organisation?
0:21:29 > 0:21:30LAUGHTER.
0:21:30 > 0:21:32Yeah, maybe.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34They've had problems, of course, with Europe.
0:21:34 > 0:21:36It's a trade-off.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38To continue with tariff-free access for several billion pounds,
0:21:38 > 0:21:40that would be money well spent?
0:21:40 > 0:21:43Andrew, we are the fifth-largest economy on the planet.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45We are Germany's biggest marketplace outside Germany.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47We France's biggest marketplace outside France.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50In fact, for the French farmers, we bought 39 million bottles
0:21:50 > 0:21:53of champagne last year.
0:21:53 > 0:21:54The Germans sold 800,000 cars into our economy.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57There will be a trade deal.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59It's mutually beneficial.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02I understand that's your argument, but it seems to me to be that
0:22:02 > 0:22:05for a relatively small amount of money, nothing like the hundred
0:22:05 > 0:22:07billion that has been floated, perhaps not even the 50
0:22:07 > 0:22:11or 60 billion, to secure us continuing largely as we are,
0:22:11 > 0:22:15which would be a huge triumph for Britain to have got that,
0:22:15 > 0:22:18you wouldn't pay a penny?
0:22:18 > 0:22:21I don't see why we have to pay this organisation a single penny,
0:22:21 > 0:22:24considering, as I said, that we have paid in almost
0:22:24 > 0:22:27200 billion in membership fee alone since we have been
0:22:27 > 0:22:32members since 1973.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35I think it's wrong.
0:22:35 > 0:22:36All right.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39Major parties use their manifesto, they hope,
0:22:39 > 0:22:41to set out a grand vision.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46But your manifesto has got talk about scrapping
0:22:46 > 0:22:49VAT on fish and chips, tackling what you call
0:22:49 > 0:22:52the lad culture.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54We have talked about banning the burqa, but it's interesting that
0:22:54 > 0:22:58in the manifesto you want to prevent it because it, "prevents
0:22:58 > 0:23:01an intake of essential vitamin Dfrom sunlight".
0:23:01 > 0:23:03Hang on, hang on, hang on.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05These aren't quite serious, are they?
0:23:05 > 0:23:12That last point, there is a myriad of research,
0:23:12 > 0:23:15by the way, medical research, that proves our point on this.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17However, that is peripheral to the burqa point.
0:23:17 > 0:23:18But you put it in the manifesto.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21Hang on, the problem we have got with the burqa
0:23:21 > 0:23:23and the niqab is that it prevents people from communicating.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25It prevents people from integrating into society.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29This is a really serious point.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32If you want to enjoy the full fruits of British society, you have to be
0:23:32 > 0:23:33able to show your face.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35So why mention vitamin D and sunlight?
0:23:35 > 0:23:38Because there's lots of research that proves our point on this.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41Isn't the truth is that Ukip is becoming increasingly irrelevant,
0:23:41 > 0:23:45that the 2017 general election is the beginning of the end
0:23:45 > 0:23:48for Ukip, isn't it?
0:23:48 > 0:23:54Sometimes in politics, the tide comes in, the tide goes out.
0:23:54 > 0:23:57This is very opportune for Theresa May at the moment
0:23:57 > 0:24:01because she is able to talk the talk and act tough on the issue
0:24:01 > 0:24:04of Brexit, because she hasn't gone into those negotiations.
0:24:04 > 0:24:08It will get difficult for her once the negotiations start.
0:24:08 > 0:24:12That's why it's so important Ukip remains on the pitch.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15If she does backslide, I will make a prediction...
0:24:15 > 0:24:18Ukip, by the end of 2018, could be bigger than it
0:24:18 > 0:24:19ever has been before.
0:24:19 > 0:24:23But the tide has gone out for Ukip and it's been showing you have no
0:24:23 > 0:24:26clothes bar a particularly extremist set of garbs.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29No, I don't buy that at all, actually.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32I think our manifesto has been agenda-setting.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34We are leading the agenda when it comes to integration.
0:24:34 > 0:24:38Obviously the Conservative Party in some areas have stolen our clothes.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40But equally, as I say, Ukip's job is to set
0:24:40 > 0:24:42the agenda in politics.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45We have been very successful at that in the past.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48When we spoke about Brexit 15 years ago people looked at us
0:24:48 > 0:24:49as if we were lunatics.
0:24:49 > 0:24:50We've now got Brexit.
0:24:50 > 0:24:53When we spoke about grammar schools, people said that they were unfair,
0:24:53 > 0:24:55bad for the working class.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57It's now government policy.
0:24:57 > 0:25:00When we spoke about a points system for immigration, we were called
0:25:00 > 0:25:01racists and xenophobes.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03It's now government policy.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07I put it to you that many of the things which are in the Ukip
0:25:07 > 0:25:09manifesto this time round will be government policy, or at least
0:25:09 > 0:25:12policies of other parties within the next decade.
0:25:12 > 0:25:15But this time, for the big picture, you are in an uncomfortable position
0:25:15 > 0:25:17because the truth is that for Ukip to succeed, Theresa May's
0:25:17 > 0:25:18Brexit has to fail.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21No, because Ukip will move on and campaign on other issues.
0:25:21 > 0:25:23Other issues which are contained within our manifesto.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26I don't want Theresa May to fail.
0:25:26 > 0:25:29But you just said she becomes relevant if she backslide.
0:25:29 > 0:25:34But I will put country above party.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36I want Theresa May to succeed in these negotiations -
0:25:36 > 0:25:38that's if she's still the Prime Minister.
0:25:38 > 0:25:39Of course.
0:25:39 > 0:25:41But I want her to succeed in these negotiations.
0:25:41 > 0:25:45I want to do well, I want her to get the best deal for Britain.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48My problem is that if you look at her record as Home Secretary,
0:25:48 > 0:25:50I'm not sure she will get that best deal.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53But if, come the next election, whenever that is, we're out
0:25:53 > 0:25:55of the customs union, we are out of the single market,
0:25:55 > 0:25:58we are out of the European Court, we're also out of Ukip.
0:25:58 > 0:26:00There would be no purpose to you by then.
0:26:00 > 0:26:02There would, because we would continue to set
0:26:02 > 0:26:04the agenda on integration.
0:26:04 > 0:26:06Obviously, I'm a big proponent of an English parliament.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09We are talking about scrapping the House of Lords.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12There's lots of things for Ukip to campaign on.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15Your period as leader hasn't been covered in glory,
0:26:15 > 0:26:17has it, Mr Nuttall?
0:26:17 > 0:26:20You lost the Stoke Central by-election, even though it was
0:26:20 > 0:26:23a hugely pro-Brexit constituency.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25A number of claims you made on the website during that campaign
0:26:25 > 0:26:27turned out to be untrue.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30You did badly in the local elections.
0:26:30 > 0:26:32During the ITV debate you forgot the name
0:26:32 > 0:26:34of the Welsh National party leader.
0:26:34 > 0:26:36You're not the man to save Ukip, Mr Nuttall, are you?
0:26:36 > 0:26:40Hang on, o you know I was elected as leader of Ukip with the biggest
0:26:40 > 0:26:42mandate that anyone's ever received in a leadership election?
0:26:42 > 0:26:45I took a flyer on Stoke, I took a gamble.
0:26:45 > 0:26:46And it didn't pay off.
0:26:46 > 0:26:50We halved Labour's majority in that election.
0:26:50 > 0:26:52You crashed and burned.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55I would love to have been an MP and I would love
0:26:55 > 0:26:57to have won that seat.
0:26:57 > 0:26:59It didn't work.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01We knew these local elections would be the hardest set
0:27:01 > 0:27:03of elections we ever fought.
0:27:03 > 0:27:05As I say, sometimes in politics the tide comes
0:27:05 > 0:27:07in and the tide goes out.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09It will come back in again.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12But you know what a lot of people say, including some
0:27:12 > 0:27:14critics in your own party, is that Ukip under Paul Nuttall
0:27:14 > 0:27:18is a pale imitation of Nigel Farage's Ukip.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21I think if you look at our manifesto it's proof that it's not.
0:27:21 > 0:27:23Ukip has moved on, it's campaigning on other issues.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27Ukip in the future will be relevant, if not more relevant,
0:27:27 > 0:27:29than it has ever been in the past.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32We both know Nigel Farage, Mr Nuttall.
0:27:32 > 0:27:35You're no Nigel Farage.
0:27:35 > 0:27:38I'm not Nigel Farage.
0:27:38 > 0:27:40Quite obviously we come from completely different backgrounds.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42We have a completely different leadership style.
0:27:42 > 0:27:46I've only been the leader of Ukip for six months.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49I'm now in a general election and I believe I will lead Ukip
0:27:49 > 0:27:52after this general election and we can go on to great things.
0:27:52 > 0:27:53Are you the last leader of Ukip?
0:27:53 > 0:27:55No, absolutely not.
0:27:55 > 0:27:57Who else would want it?
0:27:57 > 0:27:59We've got some really good people coming through at the moment.
0:27:59 > 0:28:02I think in the future - being the leader of Ukip
0:28:02 > 0:28:05is a four year term - we will go on and we will have
0:28:05 > 0:28:07another really good leader of Ukip.
0:28:07 > 0:28:09As I say, Ukip's future is secure.
0:28:09 > 0:28:11Ukip will campaign on other issues in the future.
0:28:11 > 0:28:16But beyond that, if Theresa May backslides on Brexit,
0:28:16 > 0:28:20she must know that Ukip will be bigger and more important than it's
0:28:20 > 0:28:22ever been in the past.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25Paul Nuttall, thank you very much.
0:28:25 > 0:28:27Thanks, Andrew.