0:00:05 > 0:00:08In just one week, voters will go to the polls in the general election
0:00:08 > 0:00:10to decide who will represent them in Parliament
0:00:10 > 0:00:14and who'll lead the country.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16So which of the party leaders has the best plan
0:00:16 > 0:00:18for the future of the United Kingdom?
0:00:18 > 0:00:21Tonight, I'm joined by the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Tim Farron, this election is about electing MPs
0:00:56 > 0:00:58to sit in the British Parliament.
0:00:58 > 0:00:59But you're fighting on a manifesto
0:00:59 > 0:01:03which advocates UK laws being made in Brussels,
0:01:03 > 0:01:05having no control over immigration policy,
0:01:05 > 0:01:07and for Britain to stay under the jurisdiction
0:01:07 > 0:01:10of the European Court of Justice - why?
0:01:10 > 0:01:14Liberal Democrats are campaigning, in this election,
0:01:14 > 0:01:17to trust the people, and we know that people voted
0:01:17 > 0:01:20to leave the European Union last June.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24I grew up with, you know, with people who voted to leave,
0:01:24 > 0:01:27I completely respect those who did - obviously I hold a different view.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31The issue now is, how do we move forward?
0:01:31 > 0:01:33And we know that a deal will be negotiated
0:01:33 > 0:01:35between Theresa May and those from Brussels,
0:01:35 > 0:01:37and it's one that we'll have to live with,
0:01:37 > 0:01:40our children will have to live with for generations.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42So it seems to me the people should be sovereign,
0:01:42 > 0:01:44it should not be a deal stitched up
0:01:44 > 0:01:46by the politicians in Brussels and London.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50Instead, it should be a deal that we agree with, as a country,
0:01:50 > 0:01:52and that's what we're supporting.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55We think that the people should be trusted with the final deal.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57But you don't want to trust the British people.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00You still want UK laws to be made in Brussels,
0:02:00 > 0:02:02you still want no control over immigration policy,
0:02:02 > 0:02:06and you want the European Court to have jurisdiction in Britain.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08How is that trusting the British people?
0:02:08 > 0:02:10So we have a history,
0:02:10 > 0:02:12as a liberal movement, going back to the 1950s,
0:02:12 > 0:02:15of being the party that believes that Britain's place is in Europe.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17Now, we respect the electorate,
0:02:17 > 0:02:20and we respect the result of the referendum -
0:02:20 > 0:02:23that's the direction in which our country is currently heading,
0:02:23 > 0:02:26but I think you'd be disappointed in us or indeed any politician
0:02:26 > 0:02:28who changed their principles.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31Much as I disagree with people like Bill Cash
0:02:31 > 0:02:35and Nigel Farage and so on, I do kind of respect them,
0:02:35 > 0:02:39after the referendum in the 1970s, for sticking to what they believe.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42As a country, we can come together, but you also need somebody
0:02:42 > 0:02:44who's prepared to say a different direction as possible.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47And in the end, it kind of doesn't matter
0:02:47 > 0:02:54whether you voted Leave or Remain last June.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57What the Liberal Democrats offer you is the chance to be sovereign,
0:02:57 > 0:02:59to have the final say on the final deal.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02And it does matter, because of course Theresa May has made choices,
0:03:02 > 0:03:03and it was not inevitable
0:03:03 > 0:03:06that we would choose to be outside the single market,
0:03:06 > 0:03:10ripping up our free-trade deal with Europe.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12That's a choice she has made.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15Jeremy Corbyn and Ukip, of course, backed her in that.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18We say that's a choice, and if it's a choice that she's making,
0:03:18 > 0:03:20surely the British people should have the final say,
0:03:20 > 0:03:22not the politicians.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25You always speak about an extreme Brexit.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29What's extreme about having control of our own borders?
0:03:29 > 0:03:32Well, I take the view that what our government is choosing
0:03:32 > 0:03:35is a direction that was not necessarily implicit
0:03:35 > 0:03:38in the referendum last year so...
0:03:38 > 0:03:41But what's extreme about having control of our own borders?
0:03:41 > 0:03:44Theresa May made a choice in June - sorry, in January -
0:03:44 > 0:03:48to take us out of the single market, that is to rip up our free-trade
0:03:48 > 0:03:51deal with Europe, where half of our goods are exported to,
0:03:51 > 0:03:54and which massively impacts upon our jobs...
0:03:54 > 0:03:58She hasn't ripped it up - she wants a different free-trade arrangement.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01Well, she's basically not bid to remain
0:04:01 > 0:04:04in the free-trade deal that we have, and that is fundamental.
0:04:04 > 0:04:06As you know, the single market is more than a free-trade deal.
0:04:06 > 0:04:08It is indeed.
0:04:08 > 0:04:09The single market involves free movement of people,
0:04:09 > 0:04:14it involves jurisdiction by the European Court of Justice,
0:04:14 > 0:04:17and a common rule book - if we agree to all that,
0:04:17 > 0:04:20in what way would we have left the European Union?
0:04:20 > 0:04:25So you're absolutely dead right
0:04:25 > 0:04:27to say that it's more than just a free-trade deal,
0:04:27 > 0:04:29it's more than just the absence of tariffs.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31It's all the nontariff obstructions as well.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33Let me just tell you why this really matters so...
0:04:33 > 0:04:37Well, I'd like you to tell me why, if we agree to all that,
0:04:37 > 0:04:41we would still, in effect, have left the European Union.
0:04:41 > 0:04:43Andrew, you asked me about what other than a free-trade deal
0:04:43 > 0:04:45we're talking about here.
0:04:45 > 0:04:49Let's remember why those nontariff and indeed tariff barriers
0:04:49 > 0:04:52really matter to our business, let's go back to 2001...
0:04:52 > 0:04:54No, Mr Farron, that's not what I'm asking you.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57Well, let me finish this point...
0:04:57 > 0:05:02It's an important question, and I'd like you to address my question,
0:05:02 > 0:05:05which is that if we remain members of the single market, we'd
0:05:05 > 0:05:08be subject to the European Court, we would need to agree to free
0:05:08 > 0:05:11movement of people, we would have no control over our borders,
0:05:11 > 0:05:13so therefore in what way...
0:05:13 > 0:05:16You're making lots of assumptions here.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18In what way would we have left the European Union?
0:05:18 > 0:05:21Let's answer that question, then I'll go back to your first one.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24Well, that was my first one. The important thing is this.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27We are currently in a situation negotiating our exit and a new deal,
0:05:27 > 0:05:30absolutely essential that we have a new deal
0:05:30 > 0:05:33going forward with Europe, to protect jobs, to keep prices down
0:05:33 > 0:05:37in the supermarket, to protect the future for our children.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41Now, if Theresa May has the courage of her convictions and is willing
0:05:41 > 0:05:45to go and fight for a strong deal in Europe, what you don't do
0:05:45 > 0:05:48at the beginning is accept that you can't get the best deal.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51And the best deal is surely one that leaves us with that free-trade deal
0:05:51 > 0:05:53and leaves us in the single market.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57Shall I give you one more chance to answer the question?
0:05:57 > 0:06:00Which is that if we remain under the European Court's jurisdiction,
0:06:00 > 0:06:03if we are subject to free movement of peoples,
0:06:03 > 0:06:06if we are subject to laws and regulations made in Brussels,
0:06:06 > 0:06:11in what way will we have left the European Union?
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Well, for example, over the last 20 years, Nigel Farage and others have
0:06:14 > 0:06:17toured the country telling us, "Let's be more like Norway."
0:06:17 > 0:06:20What are Norway? In the single market, out of the European Union.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23All I am saying to you... Norway is subject to free movement -
0:06:23 > 0:06:26it's subject, in effect, to the European Court.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29All I'm saying to you is that different options are available.
0:06:29 > 0:06:31All right.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33And the Prime Minister has made that extreme choice,
0:06:33 > 0:06:37and here's why it does matter - I want to just get to this point,
0:06:37 > 0:06:38because you asked me why this matters.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40Let's go back to 2001, during another general election,
0:06:40 > 0:06:43during the foot-and-mouth crisis.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47Now, you will remember that the French could not exclude
0:06:47 > 0:06:50British exports of beef and lamb to France quickly enough
0:06:50 > 0:06:54because they had the excuse of that disease.
0:06:54 > 0:06:59They will not wait a second to bring in similar tariffs and barriers
0:06:59 > 0:07:01if we're outside the single market.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04And that is why, accepting even if we leave the European Union,
0:07:04 > 0:07:07fighting for Britain's place in our free-trade deal
0:07:07 > 0:07:11that backs British jobs and keeps prices low is fundamental.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13And if you are a patriot
0:07:13 > 0:07:15and you are fighting Britain's corner in Europe,
0:07:15 > 0:07:18you don't - as sadly Theresa May has done -
0:07:18 > 0:07:21give up on the most important aspects of those negotiations.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24And I'm going to give up on trying to get an answer to my question.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26I think I've given you at least one.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29You also describe yourself, and I think you kind
0:07:29 > 0:07:32of want it both ways here, as "a bit of a Eurosceptic".
0:07:32 > 0:07:35Can you think of any other Eurosceptics who would
0:07:35 > 0:07:38launch their manifesto standing on an EU flag?
0:07:38 > 0:07:40Well, when you talk about how you stand against
0:07:40 > 0:07:44or alongside those institutions... You're not a Eurosceptic.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48..a local council, the government, an assembly or indeed Europe,
0:07:48 > 0:07:51you should be, as a liberal,
0:07:51 > 0:07:54always prepared to be critical of those who hold power.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57That's not what Euroscepticism means.
0:07:57 > 0:07:58Well, it's important...
0:07:58 > 0:08:01You are no Eurosceptic, Mr Farron, are you?
0:08:01 > 0:08:04It's not honest to say that to the British people.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06I'm passionate about the European ideal,
0:08:06 > 0:08:08I am often critical of things the Commission does,
0:08:08 > 0:08:11just as I'm critical of things the British Government does.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13You also describe yourself in one of your leaflets
0:08:13 > 0:08:16as Remoaner of the year!
0:08:16 > 0:08:20So you're a Eurosceptic Remoaner - how does that work out?!
0:08:20 > 0:08:22Well, if people, you know, cast insults at you,
0:08:22 > 0:08:25it's quite good to own them if you possibly can -
0:08:25 > 0:08:27I'm sure you do it from time to time.
0:08:27 > 0:08:29You're just trying to have it both ways, aren't you?
0:08:29 > 0:08:32You make an interesting point there about use of terminology.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34You see, I do respect the outcome of the referendum,
0:08:34 > 0:08:38and I nevertheless feel a sense of real concern that in this country,
0:08:38 > 0:08:43if you stand by your principles,
0:08:43 > 0:08:48if you question whether Theresa May is making the right choices,
0:08:48 > 0:08:52and Jeremy Corbyn of course a factor in that,
0:08:52 > 0:08:56then you are dismissed as a saboteur or a Remoaner.
0:08:56 > 0:08:57No, I accept the result...
0:08:57 > 0:09:00Hold on, that's the fourth time you've said that.
0:09:00 > 0:09:03I would suggest to you that you don't accept the result,
0:09:03 > 0:09:06you are fighting tooth and nail to undo the result, aren't you?
0:09:06 > 0:09:08You don't accept the result.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10To give the British people the final say.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13Andrew, let me make this point, let me make this point,
0:09:13 > 0:09:15and that is there something chilling about our democracy
0:09:15 > 0:09:19if people who think differently to the Government are somehow silenced.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21I think it's right that that positive vision of Britain,
0:09:21 > 0:09:24working across this continent that we are part of,
0:09:24 > 0:09:26should be put forward...
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Nobody wants to silence you, Mr Farron -
0:09:29 > 0:09:33what we're trying to do is get some more honesty.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35Now, if we had this second referendum,
0:09:35 > 0:09:38you would campaign for us to come back in, correct?
0:09:38 > 0:09:41There can be nothing more honest than leading a party supporting
0:09:41 > 0:09:44Britain's place in Europe, as we have since 1955...
0:09:44 > 0:09:47In a second referendum, you would campaign
0:09:47 > 0:09:50to overturn the decision we took last year, wouldn't you?
0:09:50 > 0:09:54So we had a referendum last year... No, I know that, what's the answer?
0:09:54 > 0:09:57Well, let's talk about what the referendum would be.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00Just tell us - you would campaign for us to remain in.
0:10:00 > 0:10:01Andrew, let me finish, let me finish,
0:10:01 > 0:10:04you've asked a really good question, and it deserves an answer,
0:10:04 > 0:10:06so here it comes. That's what I'm hoping for.
0:10:06 > 0:10:10And the answer is simply this - we are going to have a deal
0:10:10 > 0:10:13negotiated between Brussels and our government over the next...
0:10:13 > 0:10:15let's say 12-18 months, we will drop out of the European Union
0:10:15 > 0:10:17on the 1st of April 2019.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20Now, it seems to me that,
0:10:20 > 0:10:23having voted democratically for departure last June,
0:10:23 > 0:10:28the British people should have the final say on destination.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31And you would tell them to vote to remain.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33And you're going to let me finish my question.
0:10:33 > 0:10:39I'm trying to get you to the point!
0:10:39 > 0:10:42Here is the point, and it is this, that we have the right
0:10:42 > 0:10:45- surely, as the British people - to have the final say.
0:10:45 > 0:10:46If you bought a house...
0:10:46 > 0:10:48Mr Farron, I'm not arguing with this.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50Look, let me just get to the point,
0:10:50 > 0:10:52because frankly you sound to me like you're filibustering,
0:10:52 > 0:10:54and I want you to address this simple point.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56You're doing more talking than I am and...
0:10:56 > 0:10:59I'm trying to get you to answer - the question is simple, Mr Farron.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01That's exactly what I'm doing, Andrew.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04Let me try to politely put it again - in the second referendum...
0:11:04 > 0:11:05I'm politely answering it.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07Will you campaign to remain in the European Union?
0:11:07 > 0:11:10I'm politely answering it. What's the answer?
0:11:10 > 0:11:13When the deal is put to the British people,
0:11:13 > 0:11:16the British people have the right to either accept that deal,
0:11:16 > 0:11:18and in that case we leave the European Union
0:11:18 > 0:11:21on the 1st of April 2019, or to reject it and remain.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23Now, I'll be very clear with you, as I have been over
0:11:23 > 0:11:26this last 12 months - I cannot see any chance
0:11:26 > 0:11:29of us getting a better deal than the one we have now.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32So you will campaign to reject any deal.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34In a democracy, it's right to stand by your principles, isn't it?
0:11:34 > 0:11:37So can you just answer my question?
0:11:37 > 0:11:40I just have, I just have - two or three times.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43In any referendum campaign,
0:11:43 > 0:11:45you will campaign to reject any deal, correct?
0:11:45 > 0:11:48Well, let's look at the deal, but I don't imagine any of us can
0:11:48 > 0:11:51imagine a deal that is better than the one we've got now.
0:11:51 > 0:11:52So you'll campaign to remain.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55The deal we've got now is membership of the European Union.
0:11:55 > 0:11:57The deal we have now is, most fundamentally,
0:11:57 > 0:11:58of the single market.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02And then we have the opt-outs, we have the fact that we have
0:12:02 > 0:12:05the rebate, we have exemption from Schengen, we don't have...
0:12:05 > 0:12:06We know all that, Mr Farron.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09Can we just finally try and get some clarity on this?
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Because as you know... I think I've been really clear.
0:12:12 > 0:12:13There's nothing worse than politicians not
0:12:13 > 0:12:15answering questions, so can you just be clear that...
0:12:15 > 0:12:18No, you can't keep on talking over me.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21How this works is I ask questions and you try to answer them.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23But I think the problem is...
0:12:23 > 0:12:24No, you're doing it again, Mr Farron,
0:12:24 > 0:12:26please hold on, no, Mr Farron.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28When you keep talking, I can't answer...
0:12:28 > 0:12:30Mr Farron, you're not in last night's debate,
0:12:30 > 0:12:31you're in a one-on-one...
0:12:31 > 0:12:33When you keep talking, I can't answer.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36Mr Farron, will you please be quiet and listen to my question?
0:12:36 > 0:12:38Do you accept that when you keep talking...
0:12:38 > 0:12:39My question is quite simple.
0:12:39 > 0:12:41..when you keep talking, I can't answer?
0:12:41 > 0:12:44Mr Farron, you're not answering - let me try it one more time.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47Mr Farron, let me try it one more time, you're not going to
0:12:47 > 0:12:50heckle me out of this - I will ask my question.
0:12:50 > 0:12:51Well, don't talk over me.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53I will ask you my question - in the second referendum...
0:12:53 > 0:12:55On the first referendum on the deal...
0:12:55 > 0:12:57You will campaign... You're doing it again.
0:12:57 > 0:12:58I'm correcting a wrong question.
0:12:58 > 0:13:03You will campaign to reject any deal that Mrs May does?
0:13:03 > 0:13:05I will campaign in that referendum on the basis
0:13:05 > 0:13:08of what's best for Britain.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11My view is I cannot see how Theresa May will be able to get
0:13:11 > 0:13:13a deal better than the one we currently have -
0:13:13 > 0:13:15which I told you about five minutes ago.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17Let's move on to your manifesto
0:13:17 > 0:13:19and see if we can do better there with clarity.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21Last week's terrorist atrocity in Manchester underlined
0:13:21 > 0:13:24the unprecedented threat facing this country.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26Why, then, do you want, in your words, to
0:13:26 > 0:13:31"roll back the surveillance powers of the security services"?
0:13:31 > 0:13:34Well, the security services keep us all safe, and as somebody
0:13:34 > 0:13:38who was in Manchester the Tuesday, the night after the bomb,
0:13:38 > 0:13:41somebody who has four kids, all of whom had friends
0:13:41 > 0:13:43who were either at or close to the gig that night,
0:13:43 > 0:13:45it brings home to you how much...
0:13:45 > 0:13:48So why do you want to roll back the surveillance powers?
0:13:48 > 0:13:50..the police and security services do to keep us safe.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53One of the things that is really critical is this -
0:13:53 > 0:13:56as the police seek to keep us safe, what they need are resources.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00Now, the security services have powers, so for example
0:14:00 > 0:14:03we have the exclusion orders, and we've had those
0:14:03 > 0:14:05since the coalition days - the Liberal Democrats
0:14:05 > 0:14:09were fundamental in making sure that we have those,
0:14:09 > 0:14:11and the Government's used them once in two years.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13What I hear from the security services
0:14:13 > 0:14:16is that they have the powers that they need -
0:14:16 > 0:14:19what they need are the resources to make use of them.
0:14:19 > 0:14:20But you want to take powers away.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24And so what we need to make sure is that we don't have knee-jerk
0:14:24 > 0:14:26responses to the kind of outrage...
0:14:26 > 0:14:29But you want to take powers away - why?
0:14:29 > 0:14:32Do I want to protect the privacy of individuals?
0:14:32 > 0:14:34Yes, of course.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37When you see terrorists seeking to undermine our freedoms,
0:14:37 > 0:14:41our liberty, our very way of life, it is very important that we don't
0:14:41 > 0:14:43allow politicians the easy answer of knee-jerk responses that give
0:14:43 > 0:14:47away those liberties and freedoms.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50But you want further to tie the hands of the security services.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52That's not true.
0:14:52 > 0:14:54Well, you're against restricting encryption.
0:14:54 > 0:14:58So we know that encryption keeps people's bank accounts
0:14:58 > 0:15:00and details and privacy safe, and it's about making sure
0:15:00 > 0:15:03that we are smart in catching the terrorists.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06And it's getting the basic things right.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09You know, don't you, cos you read it yourself,
0:15:09 > 0:15:12in the last few days it's emerged that the murderer of those 22
0:15:12 > 0:15:14innocent people in Manchester last Monday was reported,
0:15:14 > 0:15:17flagged up, not once but five times from the community that he came
0:15:17 > 0:15:20from, and that tells you that we've got potentially ample powers,
0:15:20 > 0:15:31not ample resources, in order to pursue those who seek to do us harm.
0:15:31 > 0:15:36But you want to restrict the ability of the Security Services to deal
0:15:36 > 0:15:40with these encrypted apps which is what the terrorists use, don't you?
0:15:40 > 0:15:43We don't want to allow our politicians to go off down a rabbit
0:15:43 > 0:15:46hole to do things that won't keep us safe.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48This is not the politicians, this is the Security Services, who
0:15:48 > 0:15:50want to access these apps.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53The Security Services are very clear what they want is the resources to
0:15:53 > 0:15:55be able to catch those people.
0:15:55 > 0:15:59You don't, for example, at the moment,
0:15:59 > 0:16:02we have a European database, that by the way Theresa May
0:16:02 > 0:16:06is planning to take us out of, that has 16 notifications every
0:16:06 > 0:16:10second of every minute of every hour of every day.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15There is lots of intelligence out there, what there
0:16:15 > 0:16:18aren't are the people to do the job of sifting it and following it up.
0:16:18 > 0:16:19It would be wrong...
0:16:19 > 0:16:21The Security Services want to use the encryption
0:16:21 > 0:16:23and you don't want to give them the powers.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25The Security Services certainly think it's wrong to take
0:16:25 > 0:16:27us out of that European database.
0:16:27 > 0:16:29That is another issue, I ask you a question
0:16:29 > 0:16:30and you answer a different one.
0:16:30 > 0:16:31I don't think that's true.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35I think the fact is that those people
0:16:35 > 0:16:38who murdered 22 innocent people and injured so many more and caused
0:16:38 > 0:16:42such fear and panic, these people they do
0:16:42 > 0:16:44it for a reason.
0:16:44 > 0:16:46It is because they hate us.
0:16:46 > 0:16:47They hate our neighbours as well.
0:16:47 > 0:16:48I understand all that.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51I'm trying to find out what your security policy is.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54Well, start with ?300 million extra for our police services.
0:16:54 > 0:16:59You want to be able to notify innocent people...
0:16:59 > 0:17:01Hold on I want to ask you a question.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03Well, I was answering the previous one.
0:17:03 > 0:17:04Actually, you weren't.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06Actually, I was.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09You want to notify innocent people who have been placed under
0:17:09 > 0:17:10targeted surveillance.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13How would that work?
0:17:13 > 0:17:17So without a doubt what we need to do is take advantage of
0:17:17 > 0:17:21the fact that intelligence services have the ability under law now to
0:17:21 > 0:17:24bug people's phones, to keep people under surveillance.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26You don't tell them whilst you're doing it.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29You let them know once an investigation is
0:17:29 > 0:17:31completed if they have been proven innocent.
0:17:31 > 0:17:33That is standard.
0:17:33 > 0:17:36You said you want to notify innocent people who have been under targeted
0:17:36 > 0:17:37surveillance.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41I've just explained it to you.
0:17:41 > 0:17:42Why you'd do that?
0:17:42 > 0:17:44Once somebody's been declared and found
0:17:44 > 0:17:45innocent, you let them know.
0:17:45 > 0:17:46That is standard.
0:17:46 > 0:17:47Alex Carlile...
0:17:47 > 0:17:49I can't think of any person who would think
0:17:49 > 0:17:52that is wrong.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54Alex Carlile, the independent reviewer of
0:17:54 > 0:17:55terrorist legislation, independent reviewer,
0:17:55 > 0:17:57former Lib Dem, he says the idea is potty.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01So it seems to me very standard that you have the
0:18:01 > 0:18:04powers and you give the resources to people to hack phones, to
0:18:04 > 0:18:08concentrate on trailing people, on tracking their movements
0:18:08 > 0:18:10if a person has been discovered innocent, it
0:18:10 > 0:18:14seems pretty right and pretty British to tell people afterwards.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16All right.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19Let me move on to tuition fees, a subject which has not been a
0:18:19 > 0:18:21great one for your party.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24You still seem to be suffering from the
0:18:24 > 0:18:27promise to scrap university tuition fees and then agreeing to treble
0:18:27 > 0:18:28them when you were in government.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30You voted against that increase.
0:18:30 > 0:18:31But your manifesto now doesn't mention
0:18:31 > 0:18:32getting rid of them.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34Why not?
0:18:34 > 0:18:36It's important to have priorities and
0:18:36 > 0:18:38you're right, I voted again the rise in tuition fees.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40I always thought that was an issue of trust,
0:18:40 > 0:18:43far more than it was about fees.
0:18:43 > 0:18:44But you wouldn't get rid of them now?
0:18:44 > 0:18:47We are looking at the university situation as it is now.
0:18:47 > 0:18:49So somebody like me, who went to university from
0:18:49 > 0:18:52a working class background, what was the thing that made
0:18:52 > 0:18:53the difference for me?
0:18:53 > 0:18:54And it was a maintenance grant.
0:18:54 > 0:18:55Not fees?
0:18:55 > 0:18:59That is what allowed me to basically be able
0:18:59 > 0:19:03to go home, or go away from home to be able to pay for my rent, feed
0:19:03 > 0:19:06myself and not be a massive burden on my mum, who frankly didn't have
0:19:06 > 0:19:08the largest income, or my father.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Now then, what we are looking at now is dealing with that issue again.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13So our priority when it comes to higher
0:19:13 > 0:19:16education maintenance is to focus on providing people with a grant.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19Now if there was you know untold amounts of
0:19:19 > 0:19:22money out there, maybe you would do things differently.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25We have chosen priorities I think are right for us.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29I think the biggest challenge that is unwritten about yet and it is
0:19:29 > 0:19:32because it is about to happen is what happens in education slightly
0:19:32 > 0:19:34further down the years.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36So as we sit now, it is half term most places, it
0:19:36 > 0:19:39certainly is for my kids, we are therefore seven
0:19:39 > 0:19:42weeks off the end of term and two out of three head
0:19:42 > 0:19:44teachers in our country are preparing to sack at least one
0:19:44 > 0:19:47teacher for budgetary reasons.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50So Theresa May is about to do to our schools what she's already
0:19:50 > 0:19:52done to our hospitals.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54But I'm asking you about tuition fees.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56I've told you what we will do about university maintenance.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59Let's stick to tuition fees.
0:19:59 > 0:20:00What's our priority for spending in education?
0:20:00 > 0:20:01You said...
0:20:01 > 0:20:04It is to stop Theresa May slashing school funding.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07You said in 2010 education should be
0:20:07 > 0:20:10available to all, not just those who can stomach the debt.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12Hmm.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15As you look now, that was wrong - that maintenance grants are more
0:20:15 > 0:20:16important than tuition fees?
0:20:16 > 0:20:18Well, you have to make judgments, don't you?
0:20:18 > 0:20:19You were wrong?
0:20:19 > 0:20:29You look at where we have got now and what the
0:20:30 > 0:20:34money is available to Government and what we have done in what is a
0:20:34 > 0:20:35fully costed and balanced manifesto.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38We have chosen what our priorities are and I think if you look at what
0:20:38 > 0:20:42is off putting to people who come from the kind of background that I
0:20:42 > 0:20:43did, it is the fact that...
0:20:43 > 0:20:44It is a maintenance grant.
0:20:44 > 0:20:47To make it a personal debt during your time...
0:20:47 > 0:20:48So you were wrong?
0:20:48 > 0:20:50Now, in an ideal world there would be no charge at all.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54But it's right you make wise choices that you can deliver on and
0:20:54 > 0:20:57you don't - let's be blunt - make promises that you can't keep.
0:20:57 > 0:20:58You say that workers are now suffering a
0:20:58 > 0:21:00real fall in living standards, particularly
0:21:00 > 0:21:01with the recent rise in
0:21:01 > 0:21:04inflation, so why do you want to make their living standards even
0:21:04 > 0:21:06worse by increasing their income tax?
0:21:06 > 0:21:08Well, we have been very clear, if you look out there, National
0:21:08 > 0:21:11Health Service in our country, we saw it in
0:21:11 > 0:21:12Manchester didn't we, the
0:21:12 > 0:21:13incredible dedication, professionalism and care of people
0:21:13 > 0:21:15who work in our health service.
0:21:15 > 0:21:16I know this, as a father.
0:21:16 > 0:21:20We all agree with that, Mr Farron. We all share your admiration.
0:21:20 > 0:21:21What is the answer to my question?
0:21:21 > 0:21:23What happens next of course is you get
0:21:23 > 0:21:25motherhood and apple pie from politicians who say
0:21:25 > 0:21:28they can solve the NHS and social care problem.
0:21:28 > 0:21:30So what the Liberal Democrats have done
0:21:30 > 0:21:33is be honest and direct.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36If you want the best funded and the best
0:21:36 > 0:21:39National Health Service and social care system in the world, you will
0:21:39 > 0:21:40have to pay for it.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42So we have offered the British people, we will
0:21:42 > 0:21:44give us, our country, you and your family,
0:21:44 > 0:21:48the best NHS and care system in the world and it will cost a
0:21:48 > 0:21:51penny on income tax and it will raise ?30 billion over five years.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54Even if it means raising the taxes of those whose living standards you
0:21:54 > 0:21:57have said are already in decline.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59So it's the price of a cup of coffee a
0:21:59 > 0:22:01week for most people.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04And if you look at it in a bit more detail and
0:22:04 > 0:22:07I think having the best NHS and care system in the world is worth
0:22:07 > 0:22:09the price of a cup of coffee a week.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11If you look at it in more detail, the
0:22:11 > 0:22:15resolution foundation shows that 95% of the costs will be paid by the 50%
0:22:15 > 0:22:17highest earners in our country.
0:22:17 > 0:22:19But I believe in the welfare state.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22We are all, to coin a phrase, in it together.
0:22:22 > 0:22:24We all contribute to it, we all gain from it.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27Even those people whose living standards are falling?
0:22:27 > 0:22:30As I say, the average amount we will be paying per week is
0:22:30 > 0:22:32the price of a cup of coffee.
0:22:32 > 0:22:33Let me move on.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36If you want the best NHS and social care in the world, that
0:22:36 > 0:22:37is what we should.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39You have said no, I want to move on.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41Yes, but I want to make a point.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43I know you do. Well, make it quickly.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45Remember, this is an interview, not a party
0:22:45 > 0:22:46political broadcast.
0:22:46 > 0:22:47I get that.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49Well, I'm not sure you do, Mr Farron.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51My father's, my grandfather's sorry, my father-in-law's passage
0:22:51 > 0:22:55into Alzheimer's and at the moment, we are seeing
0:22:55 > 0:22:57wonderful people care for him, who can earn more stacking
0:22:57 > 0:22:58shelves at the supermarket.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01And that is why we need to invest more in
0:23:01 > 0:23:01health and social care.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03I'm going to move on.
0:23:03 > 0:23:04And the penny...
0:23:04 > 0:23:06No, you've said enough Mr Farron. I insist we move on.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09I accept your insistence.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11The Royal College of Psychiatrists says that the regular
0:23:11 > 0:23:13use of cannabis doubles the risk of developing
0:23:13 > 0:23:16a psychotic episode or
0:23:16 > 0:23:19long-term schizophrenia, but you want to legalise it?
0:23:19 > 0:23:22Well, here I am, as the leader of a party that
0:23:22 > 0:23:25has looked at the evidence.
0:23:25 > 0:23:26So has the Royal College.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30What we can all agree with, the Royal College of
0:23:30 > 0:23:33Psychiatrists and all the other people out there, the senior police
0:23:33 > 0:23:35officers and others, who will all agree the current system
0:23:35 > 0:23:36doesn't work.
0:23:36 > 0:23:40So what the Liberal Democrats did two years ago was appoint an
0:23:40 > 0:23:42expert panel, it included current, serving Chief
0:23:42 > 0:23:43Constables, pharmacologists and others.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45So the Royal College of Psychiatrists is
0:23:45 > 0:23:47not expert enough?
0:23:47 > 0:23:49Well of course it is and their expertise is part of
0:23:49 > 0:23:51what we looked at.
0:23:51 > 0:23:53What we have got to aim to do.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55I'm somebody who thinks drugs do enormous harm in society.
0:23:55 > 0:23:56Alcohol included.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58But illegal drugs for certain. So...
0:23:58 > 0:23:59Including cannabis?
0:23:59 > 0:24:02Sure.
0:24:02 > 0:24:06So what do we do is we ensure or we do our best
0:24:06 > 0:24:08to ensure on the basis of the evidence that you minimise
0:24:08 > 0:24:12harm to those who are vulnerable and you
0:24:12 > 0:24:15maximise harm to those criminal gangs who take advantage of it.
0:24:15 > 0:24:16Now, it's very easy for politicians to
0:24:16 > 0:24:19just cave in.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21You know, you ask difficult questions like this, which
0:24:21 > 0:24:24you're absolutely right to ask, so politicians
0:24:24 > 0:24:26will ignore what you really could do to minimise
0:24:26 > 0:24:29harm and maximise harm to
0:24:29 > 0:24:32those who are the criminals and you ignore that.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34We chose instead to be rational and look at the evidence
0:24:34 > 0:24:37and the evidence suggests that if you regulate the market, then you
0:24:37 > 0:24:40can make sure that you protect people.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43First and foremost you prevent the passage, which is what
0:24:43 > 0:24:46the evidence suggests, around the world of people
0:24:46 > 0:24:48using softer drugs, shall we say, on to harder drugs.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50Because you build a wall if you like.
0:24:50 > 0:24:53Except these so-called soft drugs, they double the risk of a
0:24:53 > 0:24:56psychotic episode, or long-term schizophrenia.
0:24:56 > 0:24:58Do you think parents watching tonight will be happy if
0:24:58 > 0:25:00cannabis was legalised?
0:25:00 > 0:25:03I'm a parent, I don't want my kids to take it.
0:25:03 > 0:25:04But you want to legalise it.
0:25:04 > 0:25:08But I also want to make sure we deal with a serious problem in an
0:25:08 > 0:25:09intelligent way.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12So out there on the streets, the evidence suggests that
0:25:12 > 0:25:15the availability of skunk, very strong strain of cannabis, that does
0:25:15 > 0:25:18potentially have a link to psychosis is being sold.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21If you regulate it, you can control it.
0:25:21 > 0:25:23I wouldn't propose to do something controversial like
0:25:23 > 0:25:26this if the evidence didn't suggest that all of our children would be
0:25:26 > 0:25:29more safe than they currently are and the criminal gangs under more
0:25:29 > 0:25:33threats than they currently are.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35Let's follow the evidence.
0:25:35 > 0:25:37All right, well, I did quote the Royal
0:25:37 > 0:25:38College evidence.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40And we accept that.
0:25:40 > 0:25:42You've ruled out any kind of coalition after the election.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46Why?
0:25:46 > 0:25:49I think I have been an active Liberal
0:25:49 > 0:25:52since I was 16 and been through many elections, it seems one of the
0:25:52 > 0:25:54things that stops you getting your message
0:25:54 > 0:25:55across is the thought that
0:25:55 > 0:25:58if you vote for the Liberal Democrats it is a proxy for X or
0:25:58 > 0:25:59for Y.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01Now at the moment, the biggest issue of
0:26:01 > 0:26:03the day, never mind the
0:26:03 > 0:26:05European Union, it is actually whether we are in the single market,
0:26:05 > 0:26:08it is our commitment to a free trade deal.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11The Liberal Democrats and the Liberal movement, who have been
0:26:11 > 0:26:13characterised by nothing else this last couple of centuries, is an
0:26:13 > 0:26:16absolutely commitment to free trade.
0:26:16 > 0:26:18Not just for economic reasons, because it is good for jobs and
0:26:18 > 0:26:21keeping prices down, it is also good for peace, keeping
0:26:21 > 0:26:22countries together.
0:26:22 > 0:26:24So why won't you enter a coalition?
0:26:24 > 0:26:26So let me just finish the point.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28You have Jeremy Corbyn with Labour backing Theresa May and of
0:26:28 > 0:26:31course Ukip's position on exiting that free trade deal.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33They want a free trade deal with Europe.
0:26:33 > 0:26:35No, they have just voted to tear up the
0:26:35 > 0:26:36one we have got.
0:26:36 > 0:26:38No, they voted for a free trade deal.
0:26:38 > 0:26:40Well you're very credulous if you believe that.
0:26:40 > 0:26:41That's what you're going to get.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44Anyway that's the reason why you don't want to go into
0:26:44 > 0:26:45a coalition.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48We are not in a position I don't think, where we
0:26:48 > 0:26:50could potentially go into coalition with another party led by Theresa
0:26:50 > 0:26:53May or Jeremy Corbyn which wants to take Britain out
0:26:53 > 0:26:54of that free trade deal.
0:26:54 > 0:26:56So your manifesto doesn't matter, does it?
0:26:56 > 0:26:57Your manifesto is irrelevant.
0:26:57 > 0:27:00If you're not going to work with other parties and go into
0:27:00 > 0:27:01a coalition, your manifesto is irrelevant.
0:27:01 > 0:27:03You can achieve a vast amount from opposition.
0:27:03 > 0:27:05Your manifesto is a waste of time.
0:27:05 > 0:27:07You can achieve a vast amount from opposition.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10So what's happening now is we are in the final days of a
0:27:10 > 0:27:12general election.
0:27:12 > 0:27:12Really?
0:27:12 > 0:27:15Called by Theresa May so she can get a landslide.
0:27:15 > 0:27:16That was her assumption.
0:27:16 > 0:27:18That is why she called the general election.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21And here's the thing, every vote the Liberal Democrats gets,
0:27:21 > 0:27:24and I want people out there, I'm going to say something I think
0:27:24 > 0:27:27significant now and it is this, I just want to flag this up,
0:27:27 > 0:27:28because...
0:27:28 > 0:27:31I have got a few more questions and we are running out of time.
0:27:31 > 0:27:33There are Labour and Conservative voters out there,
0:27:33 > 0:27:36particularly in those huge tranches of the the country where the Liberal
0:27:36 > 0:27:37Democrats are challenging the Conservatives.
0:27:37 > 0:27:38Get to your point, please.
0:27:38 > 0:27:42And in those places, I want you to lend me your vote and I will
0:27:42 > 0:27:43tell you why.
0:27:43 > 0:27:46Because that is the way we can prevent the dementia tax.
0:27:46 > 0:27:47But they're not, are they?
0:27:47 > 0:27:53At the moment Theresa May...
0:27:53 > 0:27:54You have high hopes.
0:27:54 > 0:27:55Let me finish the point.
0:27:55 > 0:27:57No, you have made your point actually.
0:27:57 > 0:27:59I want to know why your campaign has gone so badly.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01Why has the campaign gone so badly?
0:28:01 > 0:28:02You asked me...
0:28:02 > 0:28:04Why has the campaign gone so badly...
0:28:04 > 0:28:06In the final seconds, do me one favour
0:28:06 > 0:28:07and answer my final question.
0:28:07 > 0:28:09Why has your campaign gone so badly?
0:28:09 > 0:28:12As every good student will tell you, the best thing to do is
0:28:12 > 0:28:14challenge the assumption in the question.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16The Liberal Democrats have been doing extremely well and here
0:28:16 > 0:28:18is a reason why you should...
0:28:18 > 0:28:20But you're a populist Mr Farron, that's
0:28:20 > 0:28:22why your campaign's gone badly.
0:28:22 > 0:28:24Worse sound bites than Paul Nuttall, but let me keep going.
0:28:24 > 0:28:25Actually you...
0:28:25 > 0:28:27Here is the big offer.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29I'm sorry, we have run out of time for
0:28:29 > 0:28:30your big offer, Mr Farron.
0:28:30 > 0:28:31Lend me your vote...
0:28:31 > 0:28:33You have talked yourself out.
0:28:33 > 0:28:34Mr Farron, thank you very much.
0:28:34 > 0:28:38Thank you.
0:29:11 > 0:29:12I'm being arrested. What did you do?
0:29:12 > 0:29:13Promise me you won't do anything
0:29:13 > 0:29:15till you've come back to see me again. I promise.