Episode 2

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:00:43. > :00:53.Hello and welcome. Her we are live on BBC One! I have got to tell you,

:00:53. > :01:03.I am a shrinking violets... last Wednesday this was the most watched

:01:03. > :01:05.

:01:05. > :01:09.local show in Northern Ireland. Thank you! We are only into

:01:09. > :01:13.programmed to and we have a really important role to play for do

:01:13. > :01:20.tonight. It is vital that we give you a platform to discuss what you

:01:20. > :01:26.will have seen on the BBC regarding Cardinal Sean Brady. The programme

:01:26. > :01:33.alleged that the cardinal was a key player in a scandal that allowed

:01:33. > :01:39.the paedophile priest Brendan Smyth to continue to abuse children.

:01:39. > :01:44.did what was there to do. You had names and addresses, Cardinal, of

:01:44. > :01:49.children who were being abused and you did not protect them.

:01:49. > :01:58.That is our main discussion. De lifetime ban on people giving blood

:01:58. > :02:08.in Northern Ireland's because they are gay. I feel filthy. One of the

:02:08. > :02:11.

:02:11. > :02:21.UK's leading psychics, Derek Acorah, is in the studio tonight. His you

:02:21. > :02:41.

:02:41. > :02:47.Jewish? There are lots of ways to Brendan Smyth is synonymous with

:02:47. > :02:51.child abuse. Over 40 years he sexually abused and indecently

:02:51. > :02:57.assaulted many children in parishes in Belfast, Dublin and the United

:02:57. > :03:02.States. He died in prison in 1997, one month into a 12 year sentence.

:03:02. > :03:07.A BBC documentary screened this week has brought to light new

:03:07. > :03:11.evidence which raises serious questions about the role of

:03:11. > :03:17.cardinal Sean Brady in this case, and in particular his failure to

:03:17. > :03:22.ensure that children he knew about were properly protected. Let's

:03:22. > :03:29.remind ourselves of what we watched last night. Two bedrooms, one for

:03:29. > :03:37.the girls, one for Father Smith and the two boys. You and another boy?

:03:37. > :03:45.Yes. Me and a boy from Belfast. He called me over first and he abused

:03:45. > :03:51.me the way she did before. When he was finished with me I went back to

:03:51. > :03:57.bed anti-cult the other boy over. He did the same to him. I was in

:03:57. > :04:02.the bed, watching. Well, I was listening, I didn't want to watch.

:04:03. > :04:07.It was a little afterwards in 1975 that Brendan found the courage to

:04:07. > :04:12.tell a local priest about the abuse. A week or so later Prenton and his

:04:12. > :04:19.dad were driven to a monastery. Brendan was let into a room with

:04:19. > :04:25.three priests, including Cardinal Brady. Ikea for him the names of

:04:25. > :04:30.the other children a one with me on the trips. A boy from Belfast,

:04:30. > :04:35.another boy from County Cavan, and another boy that was his friend.

:04:35. > :04:44.Were you able to be any more specific about abuse she had seen?

:04:44. > :04:49.Yeah, I told him that I witnessed one boy being abused. He was that?

:04:49. > :04:54.The boy from Belfast. The court and that the boy had been accused?

:04:54. > :05:01.I knew for a fact he had been abused. The other boy from County

:05:01. > :05:05.Cavan also told me he had been abused.

:05:05. > :05:11.One other children abused by Smith, Brendan, has come into the studio

:05:11. > :05:19.this evening. It has been a big day for you, obviously, the impact of

:05:19. > :05:24.this. How are you feeling? It has been a huge day. I am overwhelmed

:05:24. > :05:33.by the response and the support. For people throughout the country.

:05:33. > :05:40.I'm also angry at the response from Cardinal Brady, that he still

:05:40. > :05:49.refuses to take account for what he failed to do. She still is in

:05:49. > :05:56.denial of what he failed to do. will give you the time and space

:05:56. > :06:00.you need this evening so you can tell the country would you feel.

:06:00. > :06:05.Amnesty International have called on the police to investigate this.

:06:06. > :06:12.I an joined by Patrick Corrigan, the Northern Ireland Director of

:06:12. > :06:17.Amnesty International. What is happening? We think that enough

:06:17. > :06:20.fresh information came to light in the BBC programme for the police to

:06:20. > :06:25.launch an investigation into whether or not individuals within

:06:25. > :06:30.the Church failed to report a crime. That is the direction in which the

:06:31. > :06:36.evidence presented by the programme is pointing. That is a criminal

:06:36. > :06:40.offence in Northern Ireland under the 1967 Criminal Act. We're

:06:40. > :06:44.calling for the police to do their job. The BBC has done its job and

:06:44. > :06:49.now the police must do theirs. you contacted the police this

:06:49. > :06:55.evening? The legal advice we have taken is that there was nice it

:06:55. > :06:59.isn't information in the public domain for the priest in his seat

:06:59. > :07:04.at - and information, so today we are making a public call for them

:07:04. > :07:07.to do that, to initiate the investigation. We know that another

:07:07. > :07:11.Brendan Smyth committed these crimes, now we need to find out if

:07:11. > :07:21.there were other crimes committed within the Church to cover up those

:07:21. > :07:48.

:07:48. > :07:58.crimes. Thank you. Let us do it Well, joining me tonight is the

:07:58. > :08:01.

:08:01. > :08:11.reporter, Darragh Macintyre. And the journalist and broadcaster Jude

:08:11. > :08:15.

:08:15. > :08:20.columns. - Jude Collins. This was a 60 minute film for broadcast across

:08:20. > :08:24.the UK. For those who might have missed it, what was the key

:08:24. > :08:30.evidence here that is leading to all this focus and Cardinal Brady?

:08:30. > :08:35.The key point is that we learnt that she was told back in 1975 that

:08:35. > :08:44.children had been abused, they were at risk of being abused and was

:08:44. > :08:48.given the names and their addresses. The charge that we made last night

:08:48. > :08:53.is that he didn't act sufficiently to protect these children. We have

:08:53. > :08:56.the names and information and didn't act. Obviously he will

:08:56. > :09:06.dispute that and we will hear throughout the programme this

:09:06. > :09:11.evening does in. Police pick up the phone. - please pick up the phone.

:09:11. > :09:17.What was his exact role? That is fundamental to what the Church are

:09:17. > :09:23.saying today. He is saying that his role was that of the note taker.

:09:23. > :09:29.But we know from the evidence that we have seen that he was maybe more

:09:29. > :09:32.than that. We have seen documentation written in his own

:09:32. > :09:41.handwriting were he says he was dispatched to investigate the

:09:41. > :09:45.complaint. He did act as a note taker, but he also interviewed

:09:45. > :09:54.another one of the victims. He gathered evidence. We spoke to

:09:54. > :09:58.Father Tom Doyle, and he said he was the investigators. He gathered

:09:58. > :10:03.the evidence, authenticated the report and we know that he compiled

:10:03. > :10:08.the report and handed it to the bishop. Whatever his wall walls in

:10:08. > :10:17.that room, it is indisputable that at the very end he asked a 14-year-

:10:17. > :10:24.old child to make a vow of silence about what was happening. There is

:10:24. > :10:31.some question as to whether he asked Brendan and the other boy who

:10:31. > :10:35.made an oath and signed it, but we know that at Bible was handed to

:10:35. > :10:40.Brendan and he swore an oath pledging that he was telling the

:10:40. > :10:46.truth. But also swearing to be absolutely silent about the process

:10:46. > :10:50.he had been involved in, not about the abuse, but about the process.

:10:50. > :10:53.That oath was countersigned by Cardinal Brady. From the

:10:53. > :10:59.perspective of the church it is simple. The oath was administered

:10:59. > :11:04.to Brendan, they have stated categorically, that it was

:11:04. > :11:08.administered to him to give weight to his evidence so that if Father

:11:08. > :11:15.Brendan Smyth was to come back and challenge and they had this to rely

:11:15. > :11:19.on. I want to take you back, Brendan, to when you're sitting in

:11:20. > :11:26.that room and Cardinal Brady was there. What did it feel like to be

:11:26. > :11:30.a 14-year-old boy in that room? was scary. I was alone, afraid, I

:11:30. > :11:36.didn't know what questions they were going to ask me. I wanted my

:11:36. > :11:41.dad to be beside me and he wasn't there. Just a feeling of sheer

:11:41. > :11:47.terror. I was injured dad beside you? When we went up to the

:11:47. > :11:53.monastery that was put into another room and told to wait their and

:11:53. > :11:59.I've went in through the other room with these three priests. My dad

:11:59. > :12:03.wasn't allowed in, that is basically it. You are in that room

:12:03. > :12:13.alone and they start asking you questions. Some of the language

:12:13. > :12:13.

:12:13. > :12:17.that we have seen that they used... the questions that were asked, to

:12:17. > :12:22.ask a 14-year-old boy does questions, like have you ever done

:12:22. > :12:30.this with any man or boy before and, if not, why not? Then, did your

:12:30. > :12:34.body changed? You know the meaning of the word direction? Another one,

:12:34. > :12:44.did seed come from your body? Imagine asking a 14-year-old boy

:12:44. > :12:58.

:12:58. > :13:08.It looked as if they were trying to: I just want to protect you to

:13:08. > :13:12.make. I want you to stick to what to definitely know. Your father is

:13:12. > :13:17.outside. If at the end of this process, Cardinal Brady is in the

:13:17. > :13:26.room, he asks you to Soren something. He came in with a bible

:13:26. > :13:32.and I had to read the Bible. I had to solemnly swear that I would

:13:32. > :13:38.speak to no one about this except authorised priests. De G want to do

:13:38. > :13:45.that? Are I did not want to do that. -- did you want to do that? I did

:13:45. > :13:52.not want to do that. I was not given the option. So you then walk

:13:52. > :13:57.out of that room and your father is there. What is your instinct?

:13:57. > :14:05.first instinct I had was that I wanted to tell my father. Then I

:14:06. > :14:11.could get stuff off of my chest. But I had to sign a note of secrecy.

:14:11. > :14:21.I had to live with it. I had to live with it until I got the

:14:21. > :14:22.

:14:22. > :14:26.courage to talk about it. A was this difficult for you? Can you

:14:26. > :14:31.find yourself defending what happened? I do not think anyone can

:14:31. > :14:36.defend what happened. The role of the Catholic Church is to protect

:14:36. > :14:42.youngsters such as the ones we have been talking about. It is horrible,

:14:42. > :14:45.absolutely horrible. There is no question about that. One of the

:14:45. > :14:52.things and the testimony that we have heard patches on something

:14:52. > :14:58.that we should keep in mind when we are considering this. People just

:14:58. > :15:08.did what they were told in that age. They told this young boy not to

:15:08. > :15:08.

:15:08. > :15:12.speak any one and he did that unquestionably. The same difference,

:15:12. > :15:20.the word that Cardinal Brady used, anyone in the 70s would have

:15:20. > :15:27.remembered this, not just in the Catholic Church, obedience with the

:15:27. > :15:33.ultimate virtue. -- obedience was the also made a virtue. We are

:15:33. > :15:39.talking about 1975. We are not talking about 1475. For you telling

:15:40. > :15:46.me that people reacted differently to child abuse then? -- are you

:15:46. > :15:52.telling me. They obviously did. We know that this thing was covered up

:15:52. > :15:57.by some people. No one would deny that. What I am saying is that

:15:58. > :16:02.every age finds it very difficult, occasionally difficult, to

:16:02. > :16:08.understand the way in which another age thinks. Look at wedding

:16:08. > :16:13.photographs. Do you think they look well in those things? What should

:16:13. > :16:18.Cardinal Brady have done? A 14- year-old boy was sitting in front

:16:18. > :16:24.of him and telling him about his abuse. Do you go to the at -- do

:16:24. > :16:29.you go to the police? Do you make sure that the young man and the

:16:29. > :16:35.other young people who you gave them your name and addresses, do

:16:35. > :16:40.you make sure they are safe? Cardinal Brady has said to us that

:16:40. > :16:45.he believes that he did the right thing. Still to this day? That is

:16:45. > :16:51.what he says. He does it under the name of obedience. I cannot look

:16:51. > :16:57.into his mind or soul and know if he is telling the truth. I do know

:16:57. > :17:05.that in the 70s that deference to authority was a very important

:17:05. > :17:09.feature. Particularly in the Catholic Church. I really

:17:09. > :17:19.appreciate you coming into night. We asked representatives of the

:17:19. > :17:20.

:17:20. > :17:26.Catholic Church to come on tonight but they would not talk to us. This

:17:26. > :17:33.was a canon lawyer. He was a 36- year-old man and a respected

:17:34. > :17:38.teacher. He was not a 17-year-old. What is the expectation of a

:17:38. > :17:43.middle-aged man? How should he react? In terms of the Catholic

:17:43. > :17:49.Church, I do not know. When I look back on that time, I cannot imagine

:17:49. > :17:54.anyone at the age of 36 holding that authority. I am not saying

:17:54. > :18:04.that Cardinal Brady was not a man of some importance. He was

:18:04. > :18:05.

:18:05. > :18:11.certainly not top of the tree. not want to get away from the point,

:18:11. > :18:15.because the point is that Cardinal Brady was an experienced school

:18:15. > :18:20.teacher and a canon lawyer. The Bishop's secretary, that is

:18:20. > :18:24.important. It is not about him going to the police. It is not

:18:24. > :18:28.about him going to the authorities were going up and down the chain of

:18:28. > :18:34.command to see what he could do next and if he could do something

:18:34. > :18:39.else. It is about him protecting the child. He had the names and the

:18:39. > :18:46.addresses of people that he had believed were abused or were at

:18:46. > :18:53.risk of being abused and he did not contact their families. We all know

:18:53. > :19:00.that if a child is at risk of injury. We all know if a child is

:19:00. > :19:04.in any way in peril, how do we respond? That is the question. It

:19:05. > :19:11.is not about the hierarchy. It is not about the chain of command or

:19:11. > :19:19.Canon law. It is about how somebody would respond when faced with this

:19:19. > :19:28.particular knowledge. Did Cardinal Brady deal what he believed was the

:19:28. > :19:37.right thing? The question is, did he do the right thing? I think he

:19:37. > :19:46.did. We can only follow our own conscience as to what we believe.

:19:46. > :19:51.conscious as to what they believe to be right and wrong. If you

:19:51. > :19:56.follow your conscience, I think anyone would acknowledge this,

:19:56. > :20:01.whether they are Catholic or not, if you do what you believed to be

:20:01. > :20:09.the right thing, even if it is the wrong thing in other people's

:20:09. > :20:13.eyes... There was a 14-year-old boy. He wanted to tell his father. He

:20:13. > :20:21.wanted to let his father know. Cardinal Brady did not tell his

:20:22. > :20:26.father. That was appalling. I would give anything that Det -- that that

:20:26. > :20:31.did not happen but it was a different age. We are talking about

:20:31. > :20:39.an individual a man. Did he believe he was doing the right thing or is

:20:39. > :20:43.he lying to us? I do not think there is any problem. I think

:20:43. > :20:47.Cardinal bought -- I think Cardinal Brady believes he did what the

:20:47. > :20:51.right thing was for a man in his position to do. Was it in fact

:20:51. > :20:59.right not to contact the parents? Was it right, knowing that he must

:20:59. > :21:07.at Nairn, because he was working in the Bishop's office, but he did

:21:07. > :21:11.no... Let us hear what do you think. You can call our number and we can

:21:11. > :21:17.hear from you. Now we can speak to Michael. What are your thoughts,

:21:17. > :21:22.Michael? I would like to say, first of all, I think it is fantastic

:21:22. > :21:28.that you have brought this up. The point I would like to make, and I

:21:28. > :21:38.am glad you brought this up, because I was not born until 1925

:21:38. > :21:39.

:21:39. > :21:46.and I am a survivor of a very severe child sexual abuse and I

:21:46. > :21:56.would like to say that if Cardinal Sean Brady had done the right thing

:21:56. > :21:56.

:21:56. > :22:01.in 1975 when he had called himself a notary, when we have learned from

:22:01. > :22:05.the data that he was actually an investigator, that if that

:22:05. > :22:12.awareness had been raised at that time, that perhaps I would have

:22:12. > :22:18.been spared the abuse that I had to go through. What I am saying

:22:18. > :22:23.tonight is very clear. I am not on a witch hunt and I am not on a

:22:23. > :22:28.gloating boat. What I am saying that is if Courtnell shone Brady

:22:28. > :22:32.does not have the gumption to resign -- Cardinal Sean Brady does

:22:32. > :22:38.not have the gumption to resign, then maybe the Catholic Church is

:22:38. > :22:42.do at this present time... I believe that he has that been

:22:42. > :22:49.allowed to resign. Until all of these things have been brought to

:22:49. > :22:56.the floor and until we stand up and say, who is in charge here? Who is

:22:56. > :23:03.making the decisions here and who is... All of the stock up what

:23:03. > :23:07.Cardinal Brady did and, more to the point, what he did not do, it is

:23:07. > :23:13.academic until we come to a point and say, I am sitting here in my

:23:13. > :23:19.apartment night after night and day after day haunted by the screaming

:23:19. > :23:24.laughter of an abuser who abused me and the many hundreds of people in

:23:25. > :23:29.this country who have been abused and their hearts torn out of their

:23:29. > :23:34.chest and the Catholic Church is allowed to continue to cover

:23:34. > :23:43.themselves. I want to thank you and I know it is a personal issue.

:23:43. > :23:53.Thank you. We have also got a retired detective here tonight.

:23:53. > :24:05.

:24:05. > :24:10.Please welcome here and here. -- please welcome him here.

:24:10. > :24:16.Mary Doherty, from the Christian Solidarity Party. There is a

:24:16. > :24:21.national discussion here about what Cardinal Brady did and did not do

:24:21. > :24:29.back end 1975. Whether there is any difference between what he should

:24:29. > :24:39.have done now and then. -- back in 1975. I am as disturbed as anybody

:24:39. > :24:43.else about the abuse. The system in the nursing profession is the same.

:24:43. > :24:48.You report to the management anything you see that is wrong and

:24:48. > :24:52.they take it further. You could not go to the police. You go to your

:24:52. > :24:57.management first and that is what I think Cardinal Brady did and that

:24:57. > :25:01.is how you behave. It would not be acceptable that you go to the

:25:01. > :25:06.police burst. That is not how it goes. When you take it to their

:25:06. > :25:12.management you hope they do something about it. If they do not,

:25:12. > :25:17.you believe that... Do you not wonder what has happened to the

:25:17. > :25:22.child? Yes, it is difficult with the abuse, but that is how systems

:25:22. > :25:28.work. There was a statement today saying that these are the

:25:28. > :25:33.guidelines. There is someone designated to do this job. Write to

:25:33. > :25:38.this very day, because you keep talking about 1975, but talking

:25:38. > :25:42.about two dozen 12, have another child approached another child --

:25:42. > :25:48.2012, if another child approached another child, are you telling me

:25:48. > :25:53.this is the right thing to do? is a junior priest and he takes it

:25:53. > :26:01.to his parish priest first and hopefully that will then be taken...

:26:01. > :26:05.A do you not fight and do what you need to do to protect the child? We

:26:05. > :26:14.have management and people in charge and they expect us... There

:26:14. > :26:20.are guidelines. The law pre-tax people who whistle blow. -- de law

:26:20. > :26:24.pre-tax people who whistle blow. The law also expects someone to

:26:24. > :26:30.bring serious illegality to the attention of the police. That is

:26:30. > :26:32.very true but it does not happen in these organisations. First of all,

:26:32. > :26:33.these organisations. First of all, these organisations. First of all,

:26:33. > :26:41.these organisations. First of all, you have to go to your management.

:26:41. > :26:46.You are working in a job and you do not want to lose your job. Pardon?

:26:46. > :26:52.These are Heagney his crimes and crimes against humanity. -- these

:26:52. > :26:57.are awful crimes and crimes against humanity. This was a young boy, 14

:26:57. > :27:05.years of age. This was a canon lawyer. He knew the difference

:27:05. > :27:09.between right and wrong. This is what is happening here. What we

:27:09. > :27:18.have to do is look at what happened here. These were crimes. If

:27:18. > :27:23.Cardinal Brady was someone else, this misguided loyalty... I have

:27:23. > :27:31.great difficulty with myself because I think we are conditioned

:27:31. > :27:41.in our Psyche... We have this fear. The instrument of beer and shame is

:27:41. > :27:47.

:27:47. > :27:55.used against people. -- the Any organisation that represents

:27:55. > :27:59.the Church should go by God slot. Cardinal Brady should be holding

:27:59. > :28:03.Godstow Lock, which says it is not about his right, it is about the

:28:03. > :28:08.rights of the child and should have turned round and done the right

:28:08. > :28:18.thing. The right thing is to be transparent, and it you're wrong,

:28:18. > :28:20.

:28:20. > :28:27.say, no matter disorganisation, protected child. To try to make an

:28:27. > :28:31.equivalence between nursing and the Catholic Church is beyond belief. I

:28:31. > :28:39.would like to disagree with Darragh Macintyre on one point. I think

:28:39. > :28:44.Sean Brady would know what would happen. He was a canon lawyer. He

:28:44. > :28:48.would have known the implications if he had told anybody, told the

:28:48. > :28:56.police. He knew what was going to happen, that's why he kept quiet.

:28:56. > :29:01.If what we shouldn't do is speculate. How do you feel in your

:29:01. > :29:07.gut when that 14-year-old sitting right there, he walks at any can't

:29:07. > :29:12.even tell his own dad. In any mother that has any kids to think

:29:12. > :29:17.that their son would sit in a room surrounded by priests, he must have

:29:17. > :29:25.been petrified. There is no word to describe how he felt. Nobody else

:29:25. > :29:31.can imagine, you know? I know, Brendan, the what you can tell us

:29:32. > :29:36.tonight is that shortly after that, a few weeks later, after you were

:29:36. > :29:44.assured by those priests in that room that you would be protected,

:29:44. > :29:48.tell me what happened? I used to have a part-time job after school.

:29:48. > :29:53.One day and was in the butcher's shop and a car pulled up outside.

:29:53. > :30:03.The window came down and it was Father Smyth. He won't like this to

:30:03. > :30:04.

:30:04. > :30:08.me. He said, I know what you have done, I'm going to get you. What

:30:08. > :30:15.did that to do you? A I was scared to go home. I love the couple of

:30:15. > :30:25.streets away. I was afraid, in Kizi was hiding behind a corner. I just

:30:25. > :30:26.

:30:26. > :30:31.wanted to get home as fast as I could. The lady here. I don't doubt

:30:31. > :30:36.Cardinal Brady's sincerity mini- states today that he believes he

:30:36. > :30:40.did the best he could, but I think there is a moral obligation on all

:30:40. > :30:45.of us to be responsible for our neighbours. Cardinal Brady wasn't

:30:45. > :30:50.just a lawyer, he was a schoolteacher who was dealing with

:30:50. > :30:58.children on an ongoing basis. somebody he was dealing with

:30:58. > :31:03.children could see a 14 year-olds subjected to invasive, degrading

:31:03. > :31:07.questioning, not that he withheld, but holding information which

:31:07. > :31:17.ultimately we know that other people were abused. Brendan is to

:31:17. > :31:21.be credited with immense courage as a teenager for trying to protect...

:31:21. > :31:31.as he said, I thought Icesave Jew, to the other victim. He thought he

:31:31. > :31:34.

:31:35. > :31:44.had done the right thing. We have a caller, Gordon. He is not there.

:31:45. > :31:47.

:31:47. > :31:53.Kieran is there. I think it is an age thing. For people over 50, they

:31:53. > :31:59.are not going after Sean Brady. I think only one-in-a-million would

:31:59. > :32:02.have done the right thing in those days. It was not fair for him to

:32:02. > :32:09.assume that people who were 40 years older you what they were

:32:09. > :32:14.doing. I think one in a million people, be it a policeman, lawyer,

:32:14. > :32:17.would have stood up against their principal and said I know better. I

:32:17. > :32:27.think we're being totally unfair on this man and I discussed it with

:32:27. > :32:37.the mob reaction. Sean Brady is no saint, but like 99 % of people...

:32:37. > :32:39.

:32:39. > :32:44.do you agree? Any schoolteacher, FA suspected any child being abused,

:32:44. > :32:51.they would have been reporting it. They are hiding behind the clock

:32:51. > :33:01.because in those days the priests walking and high ground. Let me

:33:01. > :33:11.

:33:11. > :33:17.bring you a statement from the But is part of the statement from

:33:17. > :33:21.Cardinal Brady today. The question I have back to that, is Cardinal

:33:21. > :33:27.Brady insisting he was just the note taker, the problem is, you

:33:27. > :33:32.have seen the documentary evidence, let's see it now on screen. What

:33:32. > :33:39.does that say? It says I was dispatched to investigate the

:33:39. > :33:44.complaint. I was dispatched to investigate the complaint. Now, to

:33:44. > :33:51.the Catholic Church, a simple question, what type of person that

:33:51. > :34:01.is dispatched to investigate is just an note taker? How does that

:34:01. > :34:05.

:34:05. > :34:08.tally? Let's get the view from Rome this evening. Paddy Agnew, hello.

:34:08. > :34:12.You are the Irish Times correspondent. What did you use and

:34:12. > :34:19.what has happened here, do you think Cardinal Brady should

:34:19. > :34:26.survive? I think it would be useful for a lot of people in the hold the

:34:26. > :34:32.seat to be watching your programme, and even more people here to watch

:34:32. > :34:42.the excellent documentary. One is constantly aware of the extent of

:34:42. > :34:43.

:34:43. > :34:47.which the Church don't get it. The reaction today is absolutely total

:34:47. > :34:52.rejection of the idea that Cardinal Brady should resign, total

:34:52. > :34:58.rejection that he did anything wrong in 1975, and a belief

:34:58. > :35:04.basically... the only person who speaks on the record is the

:35:04. > :35:09.official senior spokesman, Cardinal Lombardi, in the Vatican. He

:35:09. > :35:14.referred me to the state of from Cardinal Brady. He wanted to

:35:14. > :35:24.highlight a statement included by Cardinal Brady which was from the

:35:24. > :35:35.

:35:35. > :35:42.Vatican's chief prosecutor in which she said - he said basically it is

:35:42. > :35:47.clear that 1975, Father Brady acted promptly and with determination to

:35:47. > :35:54.insure the allegations were believed and acted upon by his

:35:54. > :36:01.superiors. Father Lombardi said that that statement was not

:36:01. > :36:11.included in the documentary. In other words, the Vatican is still

:36:11. > :36:11.

:36:11. > :36:15.very much on the defensive on the whole sex abuse. Can we have asked

:36:15. > :36:19.you time and time again today, and the BBC has been asking non-stop

:36:19. > :36:23.today for the Catholic Church to appear in front of the people of

:36:23. > :36:28.Northern Ireland, in front of the country and state their case. They

:36:28. > :36:32.are no were to be seen. Now, you think how quickly the Catholic

:36:32. > :36:38.Church have acted with people like Father Brian D'Arcy, who was

:36:38. > :36:44.speaking out about the ordination of Women in the church, and he is

:36:44. > :36:49.close down like that. Cardinal Brady, what we have the Catholic

:36:49. > :36:52.Church reacted to him? How much energy has gone into him?

:36:52. > :37:00.wouldn't for a moment disagree with you and the fact that they were

:37:00. > :37:05.very quick to silence people, or control people like Father D'Arcy.

:37:05. > :37:10.I think what we're talking about are two things. One is the horror

:37:10. > :37:16.of what happened, and secondly then what should be done about this now.

:37:16. > :37:23.It seems to me that a central point for several of your speakers is

:37:23. > :37:29.that they believe Cardinal Brady should resign. I am a bit

:37:29. > :37:33.astonished at the number of people who are not Catholic, who are

:37:33. > :37:38.former Catholics, or who are traditionally hostile to the

:37:38. > :37:45.Catholic Church who are suddenly concerned do have a good leader of

:37:45. > :37:52.the Catholic Church. I would said that any organisation has the right

:37:52. > :37:57.to appoint its own spokesperson or its own leader. Other people may

:37:57. > :38:02.have an interest, but it is in the hands of the people who are members

:38:02. > :38:08.of that organisation. Brendan, I want to give you the last word on

:38:08. > :38:17.this tonight. Can I ask you what impact the abuse had on you as a

:38:17. > :38:26.human being? You have had to live with that now for many years.

:38:26. > :38:30.a difficult question to answer. It has ruined my life, to be honest.

:38:31. > :38:40.It has affected the way it brought up my children and their

:38:41. > :38:43.

:38:43. > :38:51.relationship with my wife, at times. Cardinal Brady has insisted today

:38:51. > :38:57.that he will not resign. What impact does that haven't you?

:38:57. > :39:02.can't understand why he can't see his feelings. For him to stand

:39:02. > :39:07.without resigning, I think that is further abuse at me. Not only of

:39:07. > :39:13.use of meat, but the children, the hundreds of children but were

:39:13. > :39:20.abused after 1975. That is the way I feel about that. Abuse, more

:39:20. > :39:30.abuse. What would you say to him? Resign. Own up to your feelings,

:39:30. > :39:35.

:39:35. > :39:45.for once. We will close the text boat - the vote. Please don't

:39:45. > :39:49.

:39:49. > :39:57.This is not scientific and it is self-selecting and so on, but I'll

:39:57. > :40:05.be interested if you can stay with this, just do you what they have

:40:05. > :40:13.said. Please put your hands together for Brendan.

:40:13. > :40:23.APPLAUSE. And please thank all of my guests

:40:23. > :40:36.

:40:36. > :40:41.She still loves You to Bits. Good night and gone bless and we hope to

:40:41. > :40:45.see you again. Derek Acorah is coming up very soon indeed.

:40:45. > :40:55.Remember that we do this show live for a reason, so you can get in

:40:55. > :41:17.

:41:17. > :41:22.As you know from the radio every day, if you want help you can get

:41:22. > :41:28.in contact with me. There is currently a situation in Northern

:41:28. > :41:33.Ireland in which gay people are being told they cannot give bloods

:41:33. > :41:37.for life if they have ever had sex with another man. In the rest of

:41:37. > :41:47.the UK every other health minister has lifted that ban. What does this

:41:47. > :41:47.

:41:47. > :41:51.say to gay people 30 years after homosexuality was legalised here.

:41:51. > :41:55.Peter is a gay man living and working in Belfast. If you live

:41:55. > :42:01.anywhere else in the UK she would qualify to donate blood, something

:42:01. > :42:05.he wants to do. I feel very strongly about this. I represent

:42:05. > :42:08.many gay men in Northern Ireland that live their lives

:42:08. > :42:14.responsibility and we should be able to have the right to give

:42:14. > :42:18.blood, because blood is in short supply. Peter agreed to undergo a

:42:18. > :42:24.series of blood tests for the show with the view to becoming a donor.

:42:24. > :42:34.He has been tested for HIV and other blood infections, and the

:42:34. > :42:45.

:42:45. > :42:49.results are in. Here we go! Clean Back in September, our Health

:42:49. > :42:56.Minister decided he would go against the rest of the UK and

:42:56. > :43:03.repeal a lifetime ban on gay men giving blood. We have seen a 300 %

:43:03. > :43:08.increase in HIV so the problem has not gone away. There is caution and

:43:08. > :43:13.then there is caution. Experts estimate the actual probability of

:43:13. > :43:20.an HIV infected donation entering the blood supply to be as low as

:43:20. > :43:29.one in 4 million donations. Less likely than Mr Poots being killed

:43:29. > :43:36.by a bolt of lightning or catching the play! We are not clear how the

:43:36. > :43:43.Minister are right to a different decision. The risk is negligible.

:43:43. > :43:53.We already know what Edwin Poots thinks of homosexuality. They it is

:43:53. > :43:53.

:43:53. > :43:59.abominable. Accused of letting his own influence affect public policy,

:43:59. > :44:06.he has stated a spectacular U-turn. He said he was back to thinking

:44:06. > :44:11.about it and was taking further advice. We have seen contrary

:44:11. > :44:21.evidence. I think it would be and the public interest. Six months on

:44:21. > :44:27.

:44:27. > :44:32.Tell me if you think this is a far so or not. Edwin Poots will let

:44:32. > :44:37.this man do it in Belfast, but if the same man -- man went to

:44:37. > :44:42.anywhere else and the UK, the NHS would not give any notice to

:44:42. > :44:49.whether he was in gay or straight. I would just like to ask the

:44:49. > :44:59.Minister, what makes him different? The Ministers and Scotland and

:44:59. > :45:04.

:45:04. > :45:09.Wales and England, what makes him The reality is, we get blood from

:45:09. > :45:14.the rest of the UK regularly when we are short and Northern Ireland,

:45:14. > :45:20.of blood which obviously could have come from a gay man. We got that

:45:20. > :45:27.nearly 150 units last year. So, Minister, is it risky or not?

:45:27. > :45:32.have just given a pint of my blood. It was such a civilised experience.

:45:32. > :45:41.Not one question about my sexuality. It is something that I feel proud

:45:41. > :45:44.about doing. My blood could possibly be on its way to you

:45:44. > :45:52.sometimes in and I hope you enjoyed it and I hope it saves someone's

:45:52. > :45:59.life. -- enjoyed it. A have been trying to get the Minister to

:45:59. > :46:08.explain himself, but on the radio and now for the television. -- both

:46:08. > :46:12.on the radio. Why is he not talking to me about this? Our production

:46:12. > :46:20.team has been on to the Department of Health all week, offering him an

:46:20. > :46:25.interview, any time or any place. That is the Belfast Trust. And

:46:25. > :46:33.lightness about the risks. -- enlighten us about the risks. Guess

:46:33. > :46:37.what? They would not give us a single interview. Why not? Here is

:46:37. > :46:47.the score. There is simply no way they are going to fob me off. It is

:46:47. > :46:51.

:46:51. > :46:55.Back in Belfast, p to present himself to give blood at the City

:46:55. > :47:05.Hospital, armed with his clean bill of health. Here is what happened

:47:05. > :47:06.

:47:06. > :47:16.next. Hello, Peter. Hello! It is good to see you. How do you feel?

:47:16. > :47:17.

:47:17. > :47:21.Horrendous. I have just been refused by one of the most

:47:21. > :47:29.informative and nicest doctors I have ever seen. They were so

:47:29. > :47:37.apologetic. You are crying. I feel physically sick. I had been treated

:47:38. > :47:43.as if I have something wrong with me. It is a complete disgrace that

:47:43. > :47:48.there is a man sitting in an office dictating and stopping me from

:47:48. > :47:54.performing a right of mind to give blood. It is not one person, Peter.

:47:54. > :48:04.He has got support. I do not care. I do not care how much support he

:48:04. > :48:07.

:48:07. > :48:15.has. I have been refused. How does Well, obviously, we are very

:48:15. > :48:25.interested to hear what the health Minister has to say about this.

:48:25. > :48:41.

:48:41. > :48:44.Please welcome the Health Minister, Hello, Edwin Poots. Hello! Well,

:48:44. > :48:49.the Health Minister decided he could not make him sub available

:48:49. > :48:55.for you, ladies and abdomen. - Trevor could not make himself

:48:55. > :49:05.available. He sent a -- he could not just make himself available. He

:49:05. > :49:16.

:49:16. > :49:20.How do you feel about a man crying on television? And, obviously,

:49:20. > :49:23.another Minister came men and got a hard time from the people but they

:49:24. > :49:33.thought their case because they believed in it. Let me just hear

:49:33. > :49:38.how much passion you have in your case tonight. Let me hear it. I can

:49:38. > :49:46.hear you loud and clear, loud and clear. Let's see what do you think

:49:46. > :49:52.in the audience tonight. Hello, right and the very back. I have,

:49:52. > :49:56.sexual friends. Nothing would stop me taking -- I have homosexual

:49:56. > :50:03.friends. Nothing would stop me taking their blood. A would you

:50:03. > :50:13.like to ask the Minister? What is your reaction? Leads let him

:50:13. > :50:26.

:50:26. > :50:31.I have a question for the Minister! It one of his family members needed

:50:31. > :50:37.blood and the only blood that was available was from a gay person,

:50:37. > :50:47.would he let them die or would he let them take their blood? Let the

:50:47. > :50:50.

:50:50. > :50:59.minister's speech! -- let the I will let the Minister speak when

:50:59. > :51:06.he is ready. Let us hear it. Loud and clear, Minister. He is refusing

:51:06. > :51:10.to tell us what the evidence is. In the film, the Minister said that

:51:11. > :51:16.the problem is of by 300 % and this is why he does not want gay men

:51:16. > :51:22.donating blood. We are spreading to the Advisory Board on blood and

:51:22. > :51:29.tissue. Hello to you, Richard. Is the Minister of right? Does this

:51:29. > :51:33.increase in risk, how significant is it? First of all, I am not

:51:33. > :51:37.actually from the Organisation but I am a member of the advisory group

:51:37. > :51:41.that was set up to look at the evidence, and I know that they may

:51:41. > :51:46.not want to argue with a Minister, but the important thing is that we

:51:46. > :51:52.look to the evidence for a change in the rules in relation with

:51:52. > :51:58.homosexual men donating blood, and the change from a prominent

:51:58. > :52:02.exclusion to a deferral for a year was a reasonable thing to do and

:52:02. > :52:11.the additional risk was really negligible. It was something

:52:11. > :52:18.between an extra positive donation every 20 years and every 450 years.

:52:18. > :52:28.We did not think that that was a significant change. Thank you very

:52:28. > :52:28.

:52:28. > :52:32.much. Give him a round of applause. I will tell you what Edwin Poots,

:52:32. > :52:36.when you want to share the expert advice that you have that all of

:52:36. > :52:43.these people are paying for, they are paying for your experts, maybe

:52:43. > :52:47.the experts can come here, and maybe the public can hear what is

:52:47. > :52:53.informing your decision-making process. My next Ness says that he

:52:53. > :53:01.first knew he had psychic abilities when he saw the ghost of his dead

:53:01. > :53:11.grandfather. It is the Star of David. Is he Jewish? Is the Jewish,

:53:11. > :53:21.San? Is the Jewish? Issie Jewish? Robert? -- is he Jewish? Robert?

:53:21. > :53:23.

:53:23. > :53:29.Robert? After playing for Liverpool Football Club, there was a great

:53:29. > :53:34.message from the on. He is probably the UK's most famous spiritual

:53:34. > :53:44.medium for supper ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, Derek

:53:44. > :53:45.

:53:45. > :53:55.Acorah! -- the UK's most famous spiritual medium. Let's cut to the

:53:55. > :53:55.

:53:55. > :53:59.chase. You are 80 Tom -- magician? No, I am not. You are taking

:53:59. > :54:09.advantage of wardrobe full -- 1 rural people. I am most certainly

:54:09. > :54:10.

:54:10. > :54:16.not. If my family were the people to go by and the people to listen

:54:16. > :54:21.to... My dad and brothers and sisters, they all know me. If you

:54:21. > :54:29.spoke to them, they would say that these things would make me be

:54:29. > :54:35.accused of being an actor. You are a shy man. My grandmother, who was

:54:35. > :54:41.before me, she said when I was it that a boy, she said I would be

:54:41. > :54:46.flamboyant. She said I would be larger than life. But it is the

:54:46. > :54:51.personality. I wish I had so much time with you but there is a big

:54:51. > :54:58.debate. I am trying to consolidate what I want to say to you in just a

:54:58. > :55:04.few minutes. Do you really think you can deliver for people?

:55:04. > :55:12.heart of hearts, I'd do. I'd do it daily. If I could not do it, I

:55:12. > :55:20.would not do it. I would not be doing it for the past 34 years.

:55:20. > :55:27.is talking to you? My guide, Sam. He is that? He is alive, but he is

:55:27. > :55:35.in the world of spirits. What is it like for people to laugh at you?

:55:35. > :55:40.That is OK. It is not morbid. are laughing because, presumably,

:55:40. > :55:44.they do not believe you. Maybe it is because they have not had a

:55:44. > :55:49.spiritual experience. Had they just one experience, it would change

:55:50. > :55:56.their way of thinking, with respect, the way of thinking and the way

:55:56. > :56:00.they look at different things. second row, go ahead. You are

:56:00. > :56:05.laughing yourself to the bank. You have been in the business 34 years

:56:05. > :56:12.because you are making money. You are preying on the honourable

:56:12. > :56:16.people. There are people who have had a break up of a marriage and

:56:16. > :56:26.they are coming to you for help. It would be funny if it was not so

:56:26. > :56:29.

:56:29. > :56:34.scary what you do to people. When I first started doing readings for

:56:34. > :56:41.people, I virtually made myself and my family bankrupt after two years

:56:41. > :56:47.because I did not charge enough money to drop a wager. Than the

:56:47. > :56:51.money started rolling in! Know it did not. In all of the years that I

:56:51. > :56:57.have worked in television, I did not sign a contract with any

:56:57. > :57:05.network where Derek Acorah has done anything else. How much do you

:57:05. > :57:12.charge? In what? For a Reading. do not do a reading. I sat doing

:57:12. > :57:20.readings 15 years ago. At the very back. -- I stopped doing readings.

:57:20. > :57:25.I am a medium. Can you see anybody in this audience tonight? Can you

:57:25. > :57:34.see anybody from the spiritual world? Yes, I can see a lot of

:57:34. > :57:43.people. The spirit people, actually, they develop when they wish to.

:57:43. > :57:53.the front. Are you going to get an A 18 Reading if it is not too much

:57:53. > :57:55.

:57:55. > :58:02.but there? Maybe we do not have any money on us. There is no charge!

:58:02. > :58:12.Can I just finish. I do not shout about this. I have been doing this

:58:12. > :58:18.for nearly 20 years. I have gone into hospices across the UK. Once

:58:18. > :58:26.again. I will be fair to you tonight. I know you. I know that

:58:26. > :58:31.you will understand because of the child abuse story. We need De -- we

:58:31. > :58:35.need to give me time to breathe. Here is what I want to do. I want

:58:35. > :58:39.you to come on to the radio tomorrow morning and for us to have

:58:39. > :58:48.the space and time to reveal what you feel. Ladies and gentlemen,

:58:48. > :58:58.please find Derek Acorah. -- please and thank Derek Acorah. This is the

:58:58. > :59:04.

:59:04. > :59:07.taxed result tonight. Let's see the 986 % of beer -- 96 % of US said

:59:07. > :59:16.that Cardinal Brady should resign. You are a reaction to that,

:59:16. > :59:22.branding? That is justice. That is how people are feeling. You have