:00:36. > :00:46.. Thank you very much. Hello. Thank you very much. Hello.
:00:46. > :00:48.
:00:48. > :00:52.You are all very welcome, we are live on BBC One.
:00:52. > :00:55.Here's what's coming up tonight. Has there been a secret deal
:00:55. > :01:02.between the political parties in north Belfast to build houses, not
:01:02. > :01:06.on the basis of need but on the basis of a sectarian carva. A
:01:06. > :01:13.minimum minimum 14 year tariff for a 17-year-old who murdered a
:01:13. > :01:16.Catholic police officer. Stephen Carol's widow told me her
:01:16. > :01:23.reaction to the sentence is that she is distraught. She is in this
:01:23. > :01:28.studio with us here tonight. sentence will never end. It is
:01:28. > :01:35.totally devastating. Destroyed us all as a family. We will never be
:01:35. > :01:39.the same again. Also Coming up, the lengths one woman had to go to to
:01:39. > :01:49.get her money back despite the Small Claims Court ruling in her
:01:49. > :01:52.
:01:52. > :01:56.favour. I had to kick in. Right time to serve the summons.
:01:56. > :02:06.We have a packed studio tonight and there are loads of ways for you to
:02:06. > :02:30.
:02:30. > :02:34.The redevelopment of a barracks is more than a building project. It
:02:34. > :02:39.might give us a snap snapshot of where we stand in Northern Ireland
:02:39. > :02:43.as a divided community. According to the housing executive over 90%
:02:43. > :02:49.of people who need new build housing in north Belfast are
:02:49. > :02:56.Catholic. In 2011 the nationalist Housing Minister declared 220
:02:56. > :03:01.houses were to be built at the Gertwood site. But as soon as the
:03:01. > :03:08.DUP minister became Housing Minister he pressed the pause
:03:08. > :03:12.button. Sinn Fein's Connor Maskey reacted said that it was a
:03:12. > :03:18.sectarian decision. This week, this is why this story is so interesting,
:03:18. > :03:24.because all of a sudden Sinn Fein, they called it a sectarian decision,
:03:24. > :03:31.they have agreed to a deal with the DUP but are keeping the details
:03:31. > :03:38.secret from you. Who votes them into power, you. Who pays for them?
:03:38. > :03:42.You? What are they doing? Not telling you. Have any of these
:03:42. > :03:49.parties signed up to allocating houses based on political gain and
:03:49. > :03:53.a sectarian carva. Let's take a look at how this unfolded. On last
:03:53. > :03:57.night's spotlight Mandy investigated Monday's deal on the
:03:57. > :04:02.future of the former site in north Belfast. State-of-the-art
:04:02. > :04:06.facilities, housing and all party agreement, what is not to like.
:04:06. > :04:12.There's always been a vision for Gertwood to be a shared site with a
:04:12. > :04:16.variety of uses. What we now have is an agreed plan, with all party
:04:16. > :04:19.agreement, of the way forward in that regard. It is called a shared
:04:19. > :04:26.space, but there is no shared housing. At either end of the site
:04:26. > :04:29.the same old story, Catholics at one side, Protestants at the other.
:04:29. > :04:35.The elephant in the room, a nationalist housing crisis in the
:04:35. > :04:44.area. One that the plan and our Housing Minister don't seem to be
:04:44. > :04:54.tackling. In the New Lodge area there are 165 cases of need among
:04:54. > :04:55.
:04:55. > :05:02.nationalists. The minister has allocated 35 new homes. This is
:05:02. > :05:06.into the kitchen. No room at all. You have this tiny space at the
:05:06. > :05:10.back. Where do the children play? They have to play in the living
:05:10. > :05:20.room, there no other space for them to play. A solution to the
:05:20. > :05:27.
:05:27. > :05:32.nationalist housing problem with have to wait. Fundamental to
:05:32. > :05:36.obtaining community support will be on going commitment by government
:05:36. > :05:41.to secure gentlemen generation of deprived areas. Nelson macaws
:05:41. > :05:45.land's hausing boost is intend today repopulate a long vacated
:05:45. > :05:50.Protestant area. It is looking at ways of promoting this area, who
:05:50. > :05:58.have lived here in the past, to come back into. There is also a
:05:58. > :06:02.very high waiting list on mid-crumb Lynn and we are hoping to link into
:06:02. > :06:06.that list to bring people, and invite them back into this
:06:06. > :06:14.community. The move to regenerate has sidelined the first principle
:06:14. > :06:20.of housing that, that those who need should be first in line. But
:06:20. > :06:24.spotlight revealed it had been cut out of the deal. The housing
:06:24. > :06:31.executive has been one of the great success stories of the last last 40
:06:31. > :06:34.years, not least because imbed indeed our politics and public
:06:35. > :06:40.policy that housing need informed housing allocation, if that
:06:40. > :06:46.principle or if that approach is compromised, then that should out
:06:46. > :06:49.alarm bells. This Chairman of the housing executive said it must be
:06:49. > :06:55.protected from political interference. I have been
:06:55. > :07:00.disappointed by the lack of concern. There appears to be on the part of
:07:00. > :07:04.some political parties in defending an organisation and a model which
:07:05. > :07:10.has been seen to work well in Northern Ireland since its
:07:10. > :07:13.establishment in 1971. Just like tonight, Sinn Fein and the DUP
:07:13. > :07:19.didn't take part in yesterday's programme. In statements to the
:07:19. > :07:29.show both said the deal achieved all party agreement for
:07:29. > :07:39.
:07:39. > :07:47.Joining me tonight is Alex at wood, the Environment Minister, a
:07:47. > :07:52.community worker from the Shankill and our political editor Mark
:07:52. > :07:59.Davenport. Let's get stuck in, set this out
:07:59. > :08:04.for us, what's happened here? barracks is is obviously a site
:08:04. > :08:09.with enormous potential, it is in north Belfast, a vast triangle of
:08:09. > :08:18.land between the Antrim road and Crumlin road. North Belfast has
:08:18. > :08:23.been a very troubled part of the city during the troubles, and if
:08:23. > :08:27.you could regenerate this site, the hope is that it would represent a
:08:27. > :08:30.symbol of a new era. But even though it was transferred from
:08:30. > :08:34.Ministry of Defence to the executive as many as six years ago,
:08:34. > :08:39.there's been no progress, apart from some of the buildings have
:08:39. > :08:45.been levelled and it is a green field site. Because the whole
:08:45. > :08:51.question of housing is contentious and that is because north Belfast
:08:51. > :08:55.is conditionally a mixture of areas, with its sectarian geography and
:08:55. > :08:59.one side will worry in terms of housing development that the whole
:08:59. > :09:05.area and balance of the area could be changed. That is what has held
:09:05. > :09:08.things up. For many years it's held it up. Yes, 2006 it was transferred
:09:08. > :09:13.from the Ministry of Defence, so six years we are talking about. We
:09:13. > :09:20.had a master plan in 2007 which came up with many details which
:09:20. > :09:25.were announced on Monday, in terms of sports facilities and the plan
:09:25. > :09:30.has a pitch will be used by various schools which could involve rugby,
:09:30. > :09:34.soccer. A cross-community there. Will all be shared facilities. But
:09:34. > :09:38.are any of those people living together? The housing zones which
:09:38. > :09:42.we now see on the latest master plan, which was announced as part
:09:42. > :09:52.of this break through on Monday, are two separate housing zones. It
:09:52. > :09:53.
:09:53. > :09:57.is clear even though they are not giving the details, they are
:09:57. > :10:03.looking at the map t would seen Catholics are likely to be offered
:10:03. > :10:08.homes in an area which is down near the Antrim road and then there is
:10:08. > :10:13.another area which is just outside the perimeter of the base that is
:10:13. > :10:17.near Clifton park area. They are keeping them a quarter of a mile
:10:17. > :10:23.apart. The buffer zone would be provided by the community hub, the
:10:23. > :10:27.multi-sports spich and indoor sports arena. There is Abs lutly no
:10:27. > :10:33.doubt -- absolutely no doubt that the majority of urgent housing need
:10:33. > :10:37.in that north Belfast area is Catholics, nationalists? Certainly
:10:37. > :10:47.that is the general consensus. You saw it in the film. The waiting
:10:47. > :10:48.
:10:48. > :10:52.list is 90% nationalist. I should say during the day the DUP, Lee
:10:52. > :10:56.Reynolds challenged that over twitter. He said 30% of those
:10:56. > :11:03.waiting for houses are actually Protestant, so I am not the expert
:11:03. > :11:08.on the figures. But a lot of the figures have not been published. I
:11:08. > :11:12.think the general consensus, whatever we get into the figures,
:11:12. > :11:16.overwhelmingly the waiting list is nationalist. And yet there is the
:11:16. > :11:21.capacity to build some 30 homes for Protestants within that area. That
:11:21. > :11:31.is what we saw on spotlight. Let's have a look at this photograph
:11:31. > :11:39.which was controlled by government. It is all the politicians in a nice
:11:39. > :11:43.leisure where is the photo. There they are. I want you to know at
:11:43. > :11:47.home that that photograph controlled by government, not one
:11:47. > :11:52.journalist allowed near it when it was happening, not one journalist
:11:52. > :11:59.allowed to ask a question. Alex at wood, you are from the SDLP
:11:59. > :12:03.obviously, is this deal good for nationalists? Given what Mark said
:12:03. > :12:08.about the terrible history in north Belfast and the very difficult
:12:08. > :12:12.politics in north Belfast, part of me can say I understand why that
:12:12. > :12:15.photograph has taken place, because there was progress of a sort. But
:12:15. > :12:22.we have to measure the progress against the price that's been paid.
:12:22. > :12:29.The price that's been paid is that the article of faith around housing
:12:29. > :12:32.allocation based strictly upon need, it appears that that's not the
:12:32. > :12:36.principle that prevails in respect of the site. Also if we have acute
:12:36. > :12:41.housing need in any part of the north, in the Shankill, lower old
:12:41. > :12:45.park, north Belfast, then housing should be primarily built with
:12:45. > :12:49.those with most acute need. That doesn't seem to be the case here.
:12:49. > :12:53.Is it accurate to say, why I think this story is so important for us
:12:53. > :12:57.to get the detail of, do you think it is accurate to say the principle
:12:57. > :13:01.that has guarded us for so many years in Northern Ireland, which is
:13:01. > :13:07.that housing will be allocated on need, on the basis of need, has it
:13:07. > :13:11.been compromised here? At the very least it has been tarnished. At the
:13:11. > :13:16.very worst it could be teetering on the edge of being fundamentally
:13:16. > :13:21.changed. If we end up after 40 years of reform in the north that
:13:21. > :13:24.core values like the principle of need ends up being a political
:13:24. > :13:29.barter between political parties for political advantage, then I
:13:29. > :13:32.will think that is a healthy way for us to decide to develop and
:13:32. > :13:40.will compromise how we have developed as society over the last
:13:40. > :13:45.40 years. Zo do you feel story for Olga McGuinness? For a generation
:13:45. > :13:50.she has fought for the right values in north Belfast. Is he fighting
:13:51. > :13:59.for the allocation based on need no matter what? He has fought for the
:13:59. > :14:03.right values, but others wouldn't join him. I understand why a man of
:14:03. > :14:11.the integrity and contribution for a generation in north Belfast saw
:14:11. > :14:16.this could be a moment of break few it through. Is so so proud of it,
:14:16. > :14:20.believes in it so much, has he spoken since that photograph, has
:14:20. > :14:24.he spoken to these people, 100,000 people watching this tonight, is he
:14:24. > :14:30.standing up like a man and saying this is why I believe in this, or
:14:30. > :14:36.has he gone quiet. I will tell whau I am hearing, what a situation for
:14:36. > :14:39.the people of Northern Ireland, who have been embased politics, I am
:14:39. > :14:43.hearing lots of the political parties, this is really important,
:14:43. > :14:49.they are whispering to each other during this process, few don't talk
:14:49. > :14:52.to the media we won't, you give us a guarantee, we won't. That means
:14:52. > :14:56.every person in this community, they are hiding the reasons for
:14:56. > :14:58.their decisions. Let the people respond to that. Let the people
:14:59. > :15:08.decide whether they are going to accept a photograph and nothing
:15:09. > :15:10.
:15:10. > :15:13.else. APPLAUSE
:15:13. > :15:19.I promise I will let you respond, but I tell you now, every one of
:15:19. > :15:25.you in that photograph, look into my eyes, I want to know why you are
:15:25. > :15:29.standing over your decision. I want to know on behalf of the people in
:15:29. > :15:36.Northern Ireland. Stand up like a man, stand up like a woman and
:15:36. > :15:42.explain to us what decision you have made and why. There are three
:15:43. > :15:48.points. The first is I don't run down the integrity of a person like
:15:48. > :15:53.Mr McGuinness who for 40 years in difficult circumstances has stood
:15:53. > :15:59.by the right values. You may differ with him on this. Do you differ
:15:59. > :16:03.with him? Let me answer the question Stephen, do not Barack
:16:03. > :16:08.your audience or your bests. Don't run down somebody who has stood for
:16:08. > :16:12.the right values and had a position of integrity, even if you disagree.
:16:12. > :16:16.Secondly, I have been on this programme, I was on your programme
:16:16. > :16:20.last night, I went on spotlight last night, in order to give
:16:20. > :16:25.expression to the very issues you have given expression to, namely,
:16:25. > :16:30.are we in a place and time in Northern Ireland politics where
:16:30. > :16:35.values that have been formed, how society has developed in a wise way,
:16:35. > :16:39.are being compromised because other parties who have the power are
:16:39. > :16:48.involved in political barter, rather than making judgment based
:16:48. > :16:55.upon need. Has McGuinness made a mistake? You are not going to put
:16:55. > :16:58.words into my mouth. Has he made a mistake? All den McGuinness, people
:16:58. > :17:04.of integrity, saw this as as a opportunity to move this site
:17:04. > :17:09.forward. Has he made a mistake? Based against the standards that I
:17:09. > :17:15.accept, when I was DSD minister, that need should prevail and this
:17:15. > :17:20.site was critical in dealing with acute need in north Belfast, that
:17:20. > :17:26.was a stlat ji -- strategy I outlined and that should continue
:17:26. > :17:31.to be complied with. All people in my view should should judge
:17:31. > :17:35.themselves against those values and that opportunity. We have a
:17:35. > :17:40.decision here, this is bigger than this project, this is about why do
:17:40. > :17:44.we make these decisions, how can we live together. If we can't live
:17:44. > :17:49.together, let's have the politicians explaining to us why we
:17:49. > :17:53.can't live live together instead of them going to ground. You feel they
:17:53. > :17:58.have done a good deal. In 2006 when the site was handed over, I think
:17:58. > :18:02.it is fair to say the community relations, crops community
:18:02. > :18:07.relations in that part of Belfast were non-existent. Today we are in
:18:07. > :18:12.a far better place. There are a multitude of cross-community
:18:12. > :18:17.contacts, genuine friendships taking place. We have seen the
:18:17. > :18:21.economic driver of the Titanic quarter and stuff like that. I
:18:21. > :18:27.believe the two parties have made a courageous decision to use the
:18:27. > :18:37.redevelopment of the site as an economic driver for the deprived
:18:37. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :18:43.communities which border the site, shank ill, Antrim road etc. I do do
:18:43. > :18:47.commend both parties for taking this decision. A cross-community
:18:47. > :18:51.forum has met for well over a year to discuss issues around the
:18:51. > :18:57.community hub with Belfast city council. We have agreed a way
:18:57. > :19:01.forward together for that. That is a community hub, what about housing.
:19:01. > :19:11.Is there a fundamental demand from the Protestant community for
:19:11. > :19:14.housing on that site? Let's be clear. The lower park area has been
:19:15. > :19:19.decimated. Reference was made last night to a particularly small
:19:19. > :19:25.number of people on the waiting list, but on a waiting list for
:19:25. > :19:29.what? Go to lower old park, look at it, it takes more than houses to
:19:29. > :19:35.regenerate communities. We need a sustainable community in lower old
:19:35. > :19:43.park, which is at peace with itself and its neighbours. The issue I
:19:43. > :19:49.have is quite simple: Alex preed sesor Margaret Ritchie announced
:19:49. > :19:54.500 houses on the site at one time. Alex announces 200 houses on the
:19:54. > :19:57.site and on Monday we had McGuinness announcing a number he
:19:57. > :20:03.doesn't know. I am keen to hear and the community I represent are keen
:20:03. > :20:08.to hear how many houses do the SDLP want on that site. It is a question
:20:08. > :20:13.I would like to know. We want to know. Everybody wants to know and
:20:13. > :20:19.the politicians sit there and they decide what, these people aren't
:20:19. > :20:23.worthy of knowing. I have talked a lot about the SDLP. To Sinn Fein,
:20:23. > :20:29.for all the people sitting who are Sinn Fein voters, sitting on an
:20:30. > :20:37.emergency waiting list and believe in your party to deliver for them,
:20:37. > :20:41.why is the Sinn Fein representative there? Is Sinn Fein supporting
:20:41. > :20:45.that? Because I will tell you with a, there is definitely silence
:20:45. > :20:48.again. What on earth is happening. By the way I am not putting a
:20:48. > :20:53.statement of fact, I am asking a question on behalf of the people
:20:53. > :20:58.that you are representing. If those families are are on an urgent
:20:58. > :21:07.waiting list, are you fighting for them to be at the top of the queue
:21:07. > :21:13.or has there been a sick tearia carva here. Frank Dempsey, hello,
:21:13. > :21:18.what are your feelings? I am a community worker. I listened to
:21:18. > :21:25.Alec there and also the photograph shown there. It's nauseating. These
:21:25. > :21:29.are the same politicians that call for transparency. You should be
:21:29. > :21:37.practicing what they preach here. When I watched that programme last
:21:37. > :21:47.night, I was taken aback by it. do you think Sinn Fein has agreed
:21:47. > :21:53.to it? My problem is, I have been campaigning on housing issues, when
:21:53. > :22:02.I saw that, I thought what's going on. My problem is, here we have a
:22:02. > :22:12.27 acre site, one section set aside for nationalists and a section set
:22:12. > :22:22.aside for unionists and they talk about bringing the communities
:22:22. > :22:29.
:22:29. > :22:38.together. The politicians of north Belfast, if they think people who
:22:38. > :22:43.are on the housing list for years, depend on them, they have been in
:22:43. > :22:50.Stormont a long time. Here is a 27 acre site, who have they produced.
:22:50. > :22:55.They have said this. Was there a deal done between the DUP and Sinn
:22:55. > :23:01.Fein and the SDLP in relation to this. Do you know what they are
:23:01. > :23:09.saying at the minute. Nothing. the SDLP and Sinn Fein rolled over.
:23:09. > :23:16.Do we have to go back to 68 and get the banners up for civil housing.
:23:16. > :23:24.You have prompted Eamonn to come into this. Let's go live to the
:23:24. > :23:28.foil foil -- Foyle studio. Basically, they get a photograph
:23:28. > :23:37.done, controlled by government and the people don't need to know
:23:37. > :23:41.anything else? Resonance of this question is very clear. Houses are
:23:41. > :23:47.going to be built but the houses are not going to be allocated on
:23:47. > :23:51.the basis of need. How significant is that? It is very significant.
:23:51. > :23:56.Anybody who understands the role of housing shortage of housing
:23:56. > :24:04.provision and allocations, 40 years ago, as has been mentioned, the way
:24:04. > :24:10.in which that played out, anyone who looks back on that experience
:24:10. > :24:18.and considers what is happening in north Belfast, must really tremble
:24:18. > :24:24.for the future. Why? I think what we are seeing is that the sectarian
:24:25. > :24:28.manipulation in the allocation of public resources. Tax payers money.
:24:28. > :24:37.Peter Robinson, I remember him recently saying, no more of them
:24:37. > :24:44.and us. He publicly said it. this is them and us and a balance
:24:44. > :24:50.between them. This is bigotry. can it be bigotry if there is all
:24:50. > :24:54.party support? It might mean all parties are committed to a system
:24:55. > :25:02.which regenerates bigotry within itself. The fact is this has been
:25:02. > :25:11.run by the minister, Nelson macaws land is the main man here. He is a
:25:11. > :25:18.disgrace. He would deny that and it is such a pity you are not here to
:25:18. > :25:22.say it. Nelson would say that he has a political mandate, he would
:25:22. > :25:27.say he is representing his community and he would also say he
:25:27. > :25:37.is focusing on regeneration which is part of the blue President
:25:37. > :25:40.
:25:40. > :25:47.Clinton of that -- blueprint of that plant.
:25:47. > :25:51.He says he would represent his community. What was missing from
:25:51. > :25:55.that programme last night was any voices from Protestant working
:25:55. > :26:00.class people saying keep the Catholics out, we do not want
:26:00. > :26:06.Catholics. I do not believe that the majority of Protestant working
:26:06. > :26:09.class people people would argue for the proposition that houses should
:26:09. > :26:18.be allocated on any basis other than need. This is coming from the
:26:18. > :26:25.top and it is coming from people like Nelson McCausland. I have to
:26:25. > :26:30.say there appears to be a fixation that X amount of houses on the site
:26:30. > :26:35.would wipe out a specific need. That is the impression I get from
:26:35. > :26:40.commentators. Let's be clear, if we look at north Belfast, nationalist
:26:40. > :26:44.areas of north Belfast and even unionist areas of north Belfast,
:26:44. > :26:50.there are a wealth of housing projects taking place to eliminate
:26:50. > :26:55.housing need. I can't get over this fixation with Gertwood. It would
:26:55. > :27:00.never be the be all and end all of a housing crisis. I think we need
:27:00. > :27:07.to know in Northern Ireland if the housing executive is giving
:27:07. > :27:12.individual citizens in this country based on need. Can you imagine how
:27:12. > :27:17.we would feel in Northern Ireland if someone walked into a hospital
:27:17. > :27:19.and a doctor had treated five Catholics first who were on the the
:27:19. > :27:27.brink of death and needed emergency care because they were on an
:27:27. > :27:37.emergency list and that same doctor said there have been been five Kath
:27:37. > :27:40.
:27:40. > :27:44.Catholics any prods around now. Can you manage that situation.
:27:44. > :27:51.You brought us this programme on spotlight last night. How difficult
:27:51. > :27:54.was it to bring this story to the public? Myself and my producers
:27:54. > :28:00.have been working on the story for months and in nine years this has
:28:00. > :28:05.been one of the most difficult stories to report. We have been
:28:05. > :28:09.staggered by how difficult it has been to access basic information,
:28:09. > :28:14.basic facts about housing need in north Belfast. We did get some
:28:14. > :28:18.information from the housings executive but when we asked the
:28:18. > :28:22.housing executive for figures and information on urgent need to
:28:22. > :28:26.explain why they wereate Kating houses where there was no demand,
:28:27. > :28:33.they said we can't release that information to you because we need
:28:33. > :28:36.the clearance and we need the approval of the DSD, Nelson
:28:36. > :28:42.McCausland's department. We tried to get clearance, we couldn't get
:28:42. > :28:47.it. These are basic facts and figures. Clearance came last night,
:28:47. > :28:50.not long before the show, but it didn't address address any of the
:28:50. > :28:55.questions we had asked. What is most worrying about this, is that
:28:55. > :28:58.we were completely dependent for information on sources within the
:28:58. > :29:01.housing executive and I am not just talking about one or two sources, I
:29:01. > :29:05.am talking about a substantial number of sources, who are
:29:05. > :29:11.extremely concerned but who are saying if we speak out publicly
:29:11. > :29:15.against the Housing Minister, we risk being disciplined or sacked.
:29:15. > :29:21.Is that the type of culture that we are going to create in Northern
:29:21. > :29:26.Ireland? Is that seriously the type of culture that any politicians up
:29:26. > :29:29.there are promoting? Mark, how many votes are there actually in a
:29:29. > :29:36.situation for any of these political parties where people are
:29:36. > :29:46.living apart? Obviously electoral geography comes into this, the DUP
:29:46. > :29:46.
:29:46. > :29:51.has the Westminster constituency for north Belfast. There are
:29:51. > :29:55.electoral calculations as well I suppose. But the minister would no
:29:55. > :29:59.doubt say that he's made this decision more on the basis that he
:29:59. > :30:06.wants to see regeneration of areas that have been run down, rather
:30:06. > :30:16.than anything that could be stated as an election ploy. Alex, I want
:30:16. > :30:19.
:30:19. > :30:22.to show you this tonight, this is a leaflet. The minister Nelson
:30:22. > :30:26.McCausland and his department have been sending out. Just have a look
:30:26. > :30:31.at that, it is encouraging people about housing housing opportunity
:30:31. > :30:38.that there is in the lower Old Park area. Can I get your reaction if I
:30:38. > :30:44.tell you that leaflet has been sent out to Protestants only. Can I deal
:30:44. > :30:49.with Mandy's point, which is a critical point and one you will be
:30:49. > :30:55.keen on and that is that there is an atmosphere up in Stormont and
:30:55. > :31:00.there is an atmosphere in certain communities that you are not
:31:00. > :31:06.allowed to say no, that you must abide by the prevailing view of
:31:06. > :31:13.certain people in certain parties. I sit round the executive table and
:31:13. > :31:17.I dissent because there is much to dissent from but there is a culture
:31:17. > :31:21.beginning gathering authority why by if you stand up and say no or if
:31:21. > :31:25.you ask questions in our political system after years where we
:31:25. > :31:30.struggled for the right to free expression and free speech, then
:31:30. > :31:34.people try to close you down. that a bullying culture? I don't
:31:34. > :31:40.know if it is a command of control culture, whether it is the culture
:31:40. > :31:45.of certain organisations from the past being translated into politics
:31:45. > :31:49.of the present, or whether it is bullying, but whatever it is, it is
:31:49. > :31:55.anti-democratic, it is unhealthy, it is not the way to ensure that
:31:55. > :31:59.there's full and free debate. The second thing is this: however we
:31:59. > :32:08.came to this point, how we came to this point, whatever you think of
:32:08. > :32:14.the people in the photograph the truth of the matter is that a light
:32:14. > :32:19.has has been shone on the fact that fundamentals about how we manage
:32:19. > :32:23.our society for the last 40 years, that made our society better, in
:32:23. > :32:28.particular around housing policy, housing allocation, housing
:32:28. > :32:33.standards, that that is now in some jeopardy. People need to be very
:32:33. > :32:41.firm in holding to those standards if we are not to end up with the
:32:41. > :32:45.shadow of the past coming back. want to know, they will know you in
:32:45. > :32:49.this community and they will either back you or they will not. There is
:32:49. > :32:54.a leaflet sent out here, public money and it is being sent to one
:32:54. > :32:59.section of the community. It's being sent to prot stabts and it
:32:59. > :33:07.talks about schools in the Protestant area. How should a
:33:07. > :33:14.nationalist kneel tonight, how -- feel tonight? Do you support that?
:33:15. > :33:19.I support the housing executive. I think it needs leisure leisure If
:33:19. > :33:25.there is now the long hand of political influence going into the
:33:25. > :33:31.heart of the housing executive to see if behave in a a partial way...
:33:31. > :33:35.If are you saying if. The house, executive has sent out a leaflet to
:33:35. > :33:45.Protestants only. Listen to what I am saying. The housing exec stif
:33:45. > :33:51.
:33:51. > :33:59.has sent out a pamphlet to Protestants only. Are they going to
:33:59. > :34:07.get away with it. This is an example of the long hand of
:34:07. > :34:11.political influence. All den McGuinness is standing in a
:34:11. > :34:19.photograph supporting the project. What does he think about this?
:34:19. > :34:29.there is any abuse of any process, if there is any behaviour that is
:34:29. > :34:38.
:34:38. > :34:43.partial or selective, if the housing executive... I appreciate
:34:43. > :34:50.you coming in here tonight, but if you get a transcript of what you
:34:51. > :35:00.have said, it's all caveats. Tell the people your position. Is this
:35:01. > :35:13.
:35:13. > :35:21.wrong, yes or no? If... APPLAUSE Anything in our society is
:35:21. > :35:27.wrong -- if... Let's deal with the question. Anything that is partial
:35:27. > :35:31.or selective that favours one community, that tries from the
:35:31. > :35:41.interests against the interests of another, that is wrong. If that is
:35:41. > :35:43.
:35:43. > :35:47.what this is, then that is wrong. Should this have been issued by the
:35:47. > :35:56.housing executive because of undue political pressure emanating from
:35:56. > :36:01.certain political parties, that is wrong. But the housing executive
:36:01. > :36:05.who over 40 years have tried skilfully to develop better housing
:36:06. > :36:11.and better housing allocation and that we need to defend the
:36:11. > :36:16.institution of housing executive because in my view, as this example
:36:16. > :36:19.might demonstrate, there are people now trying to reach in to a
:36:19. > :36:24.successful organisation, that served all of you and all your
:36:24. > :36:34.parents very well over the last 40 years and that is a threat to good
:36:34. > :36:36.
:36:36. > :36:41.politics, good practice and good housing. Thank you very much.
:36:41. > :36:47.I want you to keep on talking about this. If the politicians don't talk
:36:47. > :36:55.about it, here is what you should do, you keep on talking about it,
:36:55. > :37:00.use twitter, pick up the phone. Call me on the radio tomorrow.
:37:00. > :37:04.You keep on talking about it, keep on asking the questions.
:37:04. > :37:14.Together we will get answers. Here is what is still to come on
:37:14. > :37:16.
:37:16. > :37:26.the show. We speed to the widow of constable Stephen Caroll's widow.
:37:26. > :37:26.
:37:26. > :37:33.It is time for our investigation of the week. Angela paid a mechanic to
:37:33. > :37:39.picks her car, but waited so long she took him to the Small Claims
:37:39. > :37:46.Court for compensation. This is Angela. Her car needed fixing last
:37:46. > :37:51.year. She took it to Stephen Smith and for �500 cash up front he said
:37:51. > :37:55.he would fix it. A car expert told us the job she needed should have
:37:55. > :38:01.taken a couple of hours, but after weeks of waiting, the car still
:38:01. > :38:07.wasn't fixed. So we shade yet more money to get her car sorted
:38:07. > :38:12.elsewhere, but Angela wanted the �500 back off Smith. He owed me
:38:12. > :38:19.money because he wasn't able to fix my car. I went to the Small Claims
:38:19. > :38:27.Court to try and retrieve that. this, to get her �500 back she
:38:27. > :38:36.first had to shell out �50 to the court to start the process. A
:38:36. > :38:43.hearing date is set. Will the court give Angela her �500 back? Despite
:38:43. > :38:49.being asked to turn up to the court Smith fails to make his debut. So
:38:49. > :38:53.the judge awards in Angela's favour. I turned up, he didn't. I was
:38:53. > :39:03.awarded the money. I thought it was that cut and dry really, that
:39:03. > :39:03.
:39:03. > :39:09.straightforward. But there is a twist. Despite not turning up,
:39:09. > :39:17.Smith's challenges what the judge decided. The court gives him a new
:39:17. > :39:24.date. As they give smith a new date, Smith gives them a new address,
:39:24. > :39:30.number 15 Quay Road. I am here, post man Nolan, the only problem is
:39:30. > :39:38.number 15 is this. Smith asked for a second chance but doesn't turn up
:39:38. > :39:42.again. So the judge finds in Angela's favour for a second time.
:39:42. > :39:52.While I thought it was time for celebration, it was really just the
:39:52. > :39:56.
:39:56. > :40:01.Because he still doesn't pay. Again. So smith hasn't turned up device, -
:40:01. > :40:09.- twice and still hasn't paid. So smith should be worried, the law is
:40:09. > :40:14.about to come down hard on him. No. It's Angela who has to fork out
:40:14. > :40:20.again to get the enforcement of judgment's office involved. Now, it
:40:20. > :40:27.is the enforce ment of judgment's job to make sure Angela gets her
:40:27. > :40:31.money? Will they deliver? This is the enforcement office that spends
:40:31. > :40:38.Smith what, do they send out a hard man to make him pay up, no, they
:40:38. > :40:42.send him a letter. It says in the letter if he doesn't pay up they
:40:42. > :40:49.make take out proceedings against him. They sent it to the wrong
:40:49. > :40:59.address. Surprise surprise, there's no response from Smith. So what
:40:59. > :41:01.
:41:01. > :41:08.will the sinister sounding enforcement office do next?
:41:08. > :41:17.Wait for this. The enforcement office that is meant to help get
:41:17. > :41:20.Angela her money back, asks her to pay another �133. Angela has two
:41:20. > :41:26.court judgements in her favour. Should she really have to spend
:41:26. > :41:34.more money at this point. Smith has got to turn up and explain how he
:41:34. > :41:40.is going to pay. Do you want the shocker? He doesn't. So, so far,
:41:40. > :41:45.Angela has spent �200 and has got nothing. Apart from paperwork and
:41:45. > :41:50.that paperwork is now going to a second wrong across. This is the
:41:50. > :41:54.house that the letter was delivered to. I have managed to speak to the
:41:54. > :41:58.family inside. They are camera shy but pretty sure they are not
:41:58. > :42:06.running a car mechanics business from the front living room. I think
:42:06. > :42:14.I believe them. Here is a handy guide for our friends in the
:42:14. > :42:19.enforcement office. This is Smith Oos, this is no so much. But now a
:42:19. > :42:29.new date is set and if smith makes a fourth no show, he will be
:42:29. > :42:30.
:42:30. > :42:35.arrested. Who has to personally hand him this bad news? Either
:42:35. > :42:45.Angela does it or she forks out for a summons server. Guess who will do
:42:45. > :42:49.
:42:49. > :42:55.it for free. Time to serve the First off, pick up the summons
:42:55. > :43:05.paperwork. Hello, good to see you. I am here to get the paperwork. I
:43:05. > :43:09.
:43:09. > :43:18.am going to be serving the summons today. Do you think I am sexy
:43:18. > :43:25.but you look very well, but... What's happened? It's been taken
:43:25. > :43:34.care of. Since you have stepped in they have given me a result. When
:43:34. > :43:40.did you find this out? This morning. Might have phoned me. Isn't it a
:43:40. > :43:50.bit co incidental after months of Angela having to pay for and do
:43:50. > :43:50.
:43:50. > :44:00.everything, the enforcement office suddenly track down Smith.
:44:00. > :44:08.
:44:08. > :44:12.APPLAUSE Earlier I spoke to Trevor Long, the
:44:12. > :44:16.chief enforcement officer. You are the chief enforcement officer, what
:44:16. > :44:20.is the point of having an enforce. Office if you just send them a
:44:20. > :44:24.letter. We do more than send them a letter but there is a whole process
:44:24. > :44:29.to be followed. My job is to enforce the judgment of the court.
:44:29. > :44:34.I can't comment on the particular case except to say when we get a
:44:34. > :44:40.case... Why not? To the day I die I am going to challenge every public
:44:40. > :44:47.servant I get up against. Because this case is on going. It is not
:44:47. > :44:52.just about the creditor, I have to take into the consideration the
:44:52. > :44:56.situation the depor might be in. hasn't paid this woman twice.
:44:56. > :45:00.have to take into consideration the balance of thaul these things and I
:45:00. > :45:05.have to make sure debtors rights and responsibilities are taken into
:45:05. > :45:12.consideration. My job is to enforce the judgment but I have to take all
:45:12. > :45:17.the facts into consideration. sent it to the wrong address.
:45:17. > :45:20.of this may be there are issues about postcodes. All I can tell you
:45:20. > :45:26.is that we are trying to do the best we can, with the information
:45:26. > :45:30.that is provided to us, by the creditor. It is her fault? I am not
:45:30. > :45:35.saying it is. I can't get into the details. There are lots of cases
:45:36. > :45:40.that come to me, I get 20,000 cases a year and sometimes the postcodes
:45:40. > :45:44.and information that is provided to us is not always fully accurate.
:45:44. > :45:49.Let me get to the heart of the matter now, this is what some
:45:49. > :45:55.people might find astonishing, this is a lady, an ordinary person and
:45:55. > :45:59.gets a court judgment in her favour, you tell her by the way she has to
:45:59. > :46:04.serve the warrant, not you lot? is not the warrant she serves, it
:46:04. > :46:08.is part of the process, the conditional order, so if when the
:46:08. > :46:13.the case is listed the second time and debtor doesn't turn up, then a
:46:13. > :46:16.warrant can be issued. That person is then brought for interview.
:46:16. > :46:20.expect her to find this man? That is the situation, that is the
:46:20. > :46:25.legislation as it stands. Does that need changed? It is not for me to
:46:25. > :46:30.say. You are the chief enforcement ferks you think it is fair to ask
:46:30. > :46:34.an ordinary citizen to find these people when you can't find them?
:46:35. > :46:39.is the way the legislation is. it right? That is the way it is at
:46:39. > :46:43.the moment. Is it right? That is not for me to say. Do you think
:46:43. > :46:48.there should be a review, you have been at this a long time?. Other
:46:48. > :46:52.people have already said that. Our job is to try and engage with these
:46:52. > :46:59.people and get to grips with it and make sure the ordinary is enforced.
:46:59. > :47:08.That is what we are there to do. Thank you very much.
:47:08. > :47:15.If you have a story for us, don't forget the e-mail to send it in to
:47:15. > :47:20.us. This week, really important story, two men convicted of the
:47:20. > :47:28.murder of constable Stephen Caroll were brought to justice. He was
:47:28. > :47:32.killed by a single gunshot wound to the head while attending a call in
:47:32. > :47:37.Craig of aon. Two people were convicted for their part in the
:47:38. > :47:44.murder. One was order today search 25 years
:47:44. > :47:52.in jail while a 17-year-old was sentenced to a minimum of 14 years.
:47:52. > :48:02.There has been criticism the sentences have been too lenient.
:48:02. > :48:08.
:48:08. > :48:12.Please welcome Kate Carroll. Thank you so much for coming in. I
:48:12. > :48:16.know you still find it difficult talking about all of this and I
:48:16. > :48:23.want to get a real sense and we will talk about the sen sensing
:48:23. > :48:27.review that is going to happen and you feel the sentence, you were
:48:27. > :48:35.distraught at if, how is life at the moment, what impact has this
:48:35. > :48:41.had on you still to this day? feel like I can't move on until
:48:42. > :48:51.everything has been decided with the sentencing. It's destroyed my
:48:52. > :48:52.
:48:52. > :48:56.life. It has destroyed my family. My in-laws. Life will never be the
:48:56. > :49:01.same again for my family. We have spoken on the radio a couple of
:49:01. > :49:06.times, this is the first time I have met,, I thought there is a
:49:06. > :49:10.fighter, a woman who is strong, and when I saw you tonight before the
:49:10. > :49:15.show, you are strong and a fighter, but I also can see in you as a
:49:15. > :49:24.human being has this has wrecked you. It has, but I will not stop
:49:24. > :49:34.fighting. That man was my life. My son is my life and my grandchildren,
:49:34. > :49:45.
:49:45. > :49:52.and I am traying -- trying to -- These people thought this was a big
:49:52. > :50:00.thing to do, we are are the boys. My husband was a family man. He had
:50:00. > :50:05.a target on his back going out to work. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week
:50:05. > :50:10.you have got to be on your guard when you are a policeman or woman.
:50:10. > :50:15.Part of the discussion that society will have around the sentencing
:50:15. > :50:20.structure, because Wooton was given a 14 year minimum sentence and the
:50:20. > :50:24.law at the moment says that the the judge has to take his age into
:50:24. > :50:30.account. Across the water in England, there is a minimum tariff
:50:30. > :50:34.if you kill a police officer of 30 years, but that is for an over 21-
:50:34. > :50:39.year-old. There are two issues, should there be specific
:50:39. > :50:45.legislation if you kill a police officer, that you get a particular
:50:45. > :50:53.minimum sentence,, and two, should leniency be given to a 17-year-old
:50:53. > :50:57.because they are so young. First, his age, 17. The age of consent is
:50:57. > :51:07.16 and he knew to go out, to drive a car, he knew what he was going
:51:07. > :51:14.out to do. It was pre-meditated. He drove the get away car. He planned
:51:14. > :51:17.everything. Along with his cohorts and he was man enough to do that
:51:17. > :51:24.and I reckon he should be man enough to take the consequences of
:51:24. > :51:31.that. When you heard minimum tariff 14 years, quha did that do to you?
:51:31. > :51:40.Actually at the start it didn't register and then in the gallery I
:51:40. > :51:47.heard a supporter of Wooton say brilliant, that's a result. That's
:51:47. > :51:53.justice. Justice has been done. I thought to myself justice hasn't
:51:53. > :51:57.been done where I am, my husband will never be back again. One of
:51:57. > :52:01.his supporters said that's a result. Yes. I just thought they can live
:52:01. > :52:07.with that result, but I can't live with the consequences of that
:52:07. > :52:17.result. I have to live my life on my own because of somebody who
:52:17. > :52:19.
:52:20. > :52:25.decided to go out and kill a police officer. Basil, should there be the
:52:25. > :52:33.same sen sense for a 17-year-old, should there be leniency given to a
:52:33. > :52:38.17-year-old compared to a 22-year- old. I would like to deliver the
:52:38. > :52:42.answer in two parts. First of all I suspect there is no sentence that
:52:42. > :52:50.could be passed to those two people that would make up for the loss
:52:50. > :52:55.that Kate has suffered. When you come to a judge make ago mistake, I
:52:55. > :53:00.think he did and I am supportive of people who say we need to review
:53:00. > :53:04.this particular decision. If you take that to the personal situation
:53:04. > :53:10.that Kate and her family have to deal with, I fully support it. If
:53:10. > :53:16.you ask me the general question, are there crimes where young people
:53:16. > :53:20.get sucked into doing bad things by older manipulated people, yes, I do
:53:20. > :53:24.think that happens. Do I think those older people that are the
:53:24. > :53:29.brains and manipulators should be punished more severely than the
:53:29. > :53:33.young people, yes, I do. I want to try and say that what Kate's
:53:33. > :53:38.husband stood for was the Rule of Law and order and that's really
:53:38. > :53:41.what we have to try and see in this situation. You understand why I am
:53:41. > :53:45.saying, I will defend the judge in this case, it is not a case of
:53:45. > :53:51.whether he made a mistake, he is working within the guidelines, it
:53:51. > :54:01.is for others to look at that sentence and a judge can only a
:54:01. > :54:04.
:54:04. > :54:09.judgment on the facts. Kate, give us a sense, because it is really
:54:09. > :54:16.important, when we are deciding as a society and the law makers are
:54:16. > :54:21.deciding and this is going to be debated in Stormont on 11th June,
:54:21. > :54:26.give us a sense of the impact on a family member of a victim. I
:54:26. > :54:32.remember you telling me the story that it broke my heart when I heard
:54:32. > :54:41.it, Christmas time. I miss my husband so much that I wanted to be
:54:41. > :54:45.next to him, to feel him, touch him and I remember going out into my
:54:45. > :54:52.garden at 4.00 in the morning, I didn't realise it was so cold and
:54:52. > :54:59.there was snow on the ground, half a foot of snow, and I went out and
:54:59. > :55:04.got my spade from my shed and I took it, going out the garden gate,
:55:04. > :55:10.the graveyard is not far away from us, I could have walked there and I
:55:10. > :55:16.took the spade and I was all for going up to digging down and trying
:55:16. > :55:21.to feel Steve. That is the impact that had on me. Why? Because I
:55:21. > :55:26.missed him so much. I just wanted to be with him. It was just the
:55:26. > :55:33.year after and I missed him and wanted to be there. It nearly
:55:33. > :55:41.killed me to be honest. To this day? Yes. You keep some of his
:55:41. > :55:50.clothes beside you? I have his Pj is under my pillow every night. I
:55:50. > :55:56.change the bed and they go back on again. I have his hair brush, I can
:55:56. > :56:04.smell that, I keep it in a plastic bag, so I can go up and when I feel
:56:04. > :56:08.bad I can smell it and get that sense that he's there. The reason I
:56:08. > :56:13.asked you that, it is in the context of what you have just said,
:56:13. > :56:17.if there were to be longer sentences for killers like this,
:56:17. > :56:22.what would it do, would it make any difference, because you can talk as
:56:22. > :56:30.a victim yourself, would it make a difference? Well, to me, I believe
:56:30. > :56:36.if you take a life, you should do life, no matter whose life it is.
:56:36. > :56:40.Whether it is Joe Bloggs or Steve Carroll. If you take a life you
:56:40. > :56:44.should give up a life. Life is the most precious thing we are
:56:44. > :56:50.givenment What are you asking the executive to do for you? Just to
:56:50. > :56:54.rethink their strategies and and come up with something real. Out in
:56:54. > :57:03.America if you commit a crime in America, they don't deal with you
:57:03. > :57:08.with a slap on the wrist, they give you a harsh sentence. I think life
:57:08. > :57:13.should mean life. If you are going to do a crime, you should realise
:57:13. > :57:17.you are going to have to pay for it. I want people to know tonight that
:57:17. > :57:21.you are a fighter and one of the things you are doing, where you are
:57:21. > :57:27.getting the energy from I don't know, you are going to set up a
:57:27. > :57:34.foundation, tell me why? Because I don't want children to be sucked
:57:34. > :57:38.into this bigotry. I want to get them see that life is a lot more, I
:57:38. > :57:42.want them to have more structure in their lives. Children have no
:57:42. > :57:47.structure in their lives. They need a sense of belonging. What is your
:57:47. > :57:54.foundation going to do? I am going to have a scholarship, the geckon
:57:54. > :57:59.of hope, -- beacon of hope. It is try to get people who have less
:57:59. > :58:03.money or whatever, if these children show willing, we can get
:58:03. > :58:09.them into college, and the fund will pay for their education for
:58:09. > :58:13.three years. Where you are getting the energy from, I don't know, but
:58:13. > :58:22.I am sure everyone wants to thank you for coming in. Thank you so
:58:22. > :58:25.much. APPLAUSE