:00:38. > :00:47.Hello. Hello there. Hello there. Welcome along, ladies and gentlemen.
:00:47. > :00:53.We are live on BBC One. Cheering Here is what is coming up. Can you
:00:53. > :00:58.believe we are still arguing about flags in Northern Ireland? A draft
:00:58. > :01:02.Government paper says paramilitary flags need to be tackled as a
:01:02. > :01:06.priority. It is a dirty secret that no parent wants to admit to but
:01:06. > :01:11.these mothers were brave enough to talk to me about their son's' drug
:01:11. > :01:19.abuse. Nobody wants to tell anybody their child is doing this in their
:01:19. > :01:25.own home. Their child is aggressive or running around the house when
:01:25. > :01:31.they are high on drugs. People are afraid of their own children.
:01:31. > :01:35.are. Do you remember this? At the height
:01:35. > :01:45.of her fame, Gail Porter was projected naked on to the Houses of
:01:45. > :02:10.
:02:10. > :02:13.Parliament. So she is here to talk Here is the dilemma. Get rid of
:02:14. > :02:18.paramilitary flags because they are illegal, but his Northern Ireland
:02:18. > :02:22.really ready for that? Course, the danger is there could be violence.
:02:22. > :02:26.Do you really think the people who had a grip on these committees for
:02:26. > :02:32.years are prepared to be told, rather than asked, to take down the
:02:32. > :02:35.flanks? Then there are the so- called community gatekeepers, the
:02:35. > :02:45.community work that the Government is worried about. Shall we hear
:02:45. > :02:58.
:02:58. > :03:02.And also joining us, Chris Little Where are we at, Jim? I cannot
:03:02. > :03:07.believe we are talking about flags, 14 years after the Good Friday
:03:07. > :03:12.Agreement. Here we are, talking about whether the Community would
:03:12. > :03:17.tolerate paramilitary flags coming down? It is against the law! Any
:03:17. > :03:22.simple like that is against the law. There are a lot of things against
:03:22. > :03:29.the law and people decide to break them at times, so we are coming
:03:29. > :03:33.through a conflict here of over four years -- 40 years and that
:03:33. > :03:37.goes back to the formation of our state. People are working to get
:03:37. > :03:45.these things to move and have the proper reaction but it is not easy.
:03:45. > :03:51.I can take you back ten years ago. There were people bringing 25,035
:03:51. > :03:58.1000 flags into this country for paramilitary groups. You used to
:03:58. > :04:02.drive around this country and see flags everywhere. You would see
:04:02. > :04:08.three and four on EU want flag post. Bat has been massively cut down so
:04:08. > :04:14.let's get it into perspective. Let's not build it up to something
:04:15. > :04:23.that it isn't. It isn't that massive an issue. This draft
:04:23. > :04:29.Stormont community relations policy, it is seeking to remove flags
:04:29. > :04:34.through dialogue. It says it right to bolster the reputation of self-
:04:34. > :04:42.appointed community gatekeepers. was chairman of a residents' group
:04:42. > :04:47.for 30 years. I faced all sorts of things, getting phone calls at 2am.
:04:47. > :04:50.Self-appointed, helping to work for the community for 30 years. My wife
:04:51. > :04:56.sitting in the audience... What have you lived on for 30 years,
:04:56. > :04:59.then? I was a builder for a lot of years and I have been unemployed.
:04:59. > :05:04.But my objective in my community and for all the communities was to
:05:04. > :05:07.try to make things better for people. This new phrase that
:05:07. > :05:11.someone thought up, it is absolutely brilliant. I would love
:05:11. > :05:17.for those people to come and do what I have been doing for the last
:05:17. > :05:22.25 years. I will tell you exactly what they are saying. That these
:05:22. > :05:30.community workers, you have got the power, the clout, you have
:05:30. > :05:34.influence over the paramilitaries, what gives you the God-given right
:05:34. > :05:38.to have this influence over the communities. That is for the police,
:05:38. > :05:46.for the authorities. That is what they're talking about. It is time
:05:46. > :05:54.to strip the power of these community workers. Stephen, how it
:05:54. > :05:59.is power putting a flag up? There are occasions where there have been
:05:59. > :06:02.things at side chapels and people have been asked to remove them. But
:06:02. > :06:08.to turn around and say someone has power because there is a book
:06:08. > :06:12.bought -- couple of flags up. Flights do not hurt people.
:06:12. > :06:22.power is whether you can actually stop people putting them up, or to
:06:22. > :06:28.
:06:28. > :06:38.take them down. Let's do a text Please text the word vote before
:06:38. > :06:39.
:06:39. > :06:43.You lot have walked out. You are throwing your dummy out of the pram.
:06:43. > :06:49.You are out of the process. You were talking from the sidelines.
:06:49. > :06:53.have been accused of a lot of things over the last day or two,
:06:53. > :06:58.boycotting and failing to compromise today. We have been
:06:58. > :07:02.leading compromise for years but what I would say is that Northern
:07:02. > :07:05.Ireland has moved forward. We have come a long way but the terms in
:07:05. > :07:09.this document certainly do not refer to people, community workers
:07:09. > :07:15.like gin, who are doing excellent work, Grant, but that excellent
:07:15. > :07:20.work is undermined by people who seek to exert influence on
:07:20. > :07:25.communities by using illegal flags. We are calling for robust action.
:07:25. > :07:30.We need to recognise that people have the individual right -- right
:07:30. > :07:35.to fly national flags on their own property. By that is distinguished
:07:35. > :07:43.between paramilitary flags. But on paramilitary flags, do you think
:07:43. > :07:50.they should all be taken down? Zero-tolerance. I do not. You go
:07:50. > :07:56.back to places like America where they tried to hide and bury the
:07:56. > :08:00.facts of the Vietnam War. We are talking about taking barriers down.
:08:00. > :08:04.More barriers have been put up since the ceasefire. People need to
:08:04. > :08:07.move to the proper place to get these things done within our
:08:07. > :08:12.society and if you are starting to go against individuals and
:08:12. > :08:17.communities, you are going to end up taking ourselves back.
:08:17. > :08:22.Terrorism Act 2000. It is an offence to display any simple
:08:22. > :08:28.directed to a paramilitary organisation. It is an offence!
:08:28. > :08:33.What do you mean, yes? Stephen, it is an offence to park somewhere!
:08:33. > :08:37.You break the law when you do that every time. What is the difference?
:08:37. > :08:43.I get done for it. The point is we will either get into the situation
:08:43. > :08:46.where we have respect for all law and order or for many years we are
:08:46. > :08:52.going to keep on saying that we are a special case in Northern Ireland.
:08:52. > :08:55.It is 14 years on. Have you not seen how we have moved on since the
:08:55. > :09:05.old days of paramilitary flags on every lumpers? In a lot of areas
:09:05. > :09:06.
:09:06. > :09:15.there has been a lot of changes. -- every lamp-post. Let me go to the
:09:15. > :09:20.back row. I am part of a group that runs Christian events and we had an
:09:20. > :09:24.open-air meeting in Portstewart. We tried contacting the council to see
:09:24. > :09:30.if we could put a ban up a week in event -- in advance for are absent.
:09:30. > :09:35.We were told that if we put a banner up it would be removed and
:09:35. > :09:45.we would be charged for the removal. Why should it be one rule for them
:09:45. > :09:49.
:09:49. > :09:53.and one for us? Why should we get You have a paramilitary flag up and
:09:53. > :10:03.you do nothing -- they do nothing about it. I have had instances
:10:03. > :10:04.
:10:04. > :10:09.where church fetes advertising has received fines. Go ahead. They
:10:09. > :10:19.cannot erase the history of this country by taking away flags.
:10:19. > :10:21.
:10:21. > :10:27.I do not think it holds bar in a community. Wise up! No one is going
:10:27. > :10:31.to fly them outside their houses anywhere. So no one gets the
:10:31. > :10:36.windows but in if they ask the wrong boys to take their
:10:36. > :10:46.paramilitary flags down? No one is frightened of paramilitaries in
:10:46. > :10:50.
:10:50. > :10:53.this country? They are gone. You are making all sorts of
:10:53. > :10:56.interesting points but I think all sorts of groups are in society and
:10:56. > :11:00.we have to be tolerant with one another, or whether they are
:11:00. > :11:04.paramilitary or whatever. If they want to put up flags they have got
:11:04. > :11:12.to do it in a safe way. I would like to see people move on. If we
:11:12. > :11:19.train these people... I have seen young lads, 15, 16, up maybe a 100
:11:19. > :11:23.foot ladder and I do I know if there have been trained. I would
:11:23. > :11:26.like to think that they can be properly trained and their skills
:11:26. > :11:30.used in the building trade and they would have something positive to do
:11:30. > :11:34.for society could as well as putting up lax. Any time they put
:11:34. > :11:37.up lives around our area, north Belfast, they do ask people in the
:11:37. > :11:41.streets if they won the flags up and if people say no, they do not
:11:41. > :11:45.put them up in the streets, but they do put them up on the main
:11:45. > :11:51.thoroughfares along main roads. I do not know about zero-tolerance.
:11:51. > :12:01.It is difficult. They should be able to say yes they are going up
:12:01. > :12:01.
:12:01. > :12:08.on 15th June and coming down on Who is the Justice Minister in this
:12:08. > :12:13.country? My colleague David Ford. Why is there a law that's not being
:12:13. > :12:18.enforced? There is consequences to the paramilitary flags. There is
:12:18. > :12:21.loss of investment - people feel difficult to visit those areas. It
:12:21. > :12:24.does hinder the regeneration work Jim is doing. Those are serious
:12:24. > :12:31.consequences for local communities. The Justice Minister has done a lot
:12:31. > :12:35.of work to try to improve community relations. This is an operational
:12:36. > :12:40.issue for the police. When the police did take courageous
:12:40. > :12:43.decisions to act and deliver on it last year, we failed to see the
:12:43. > :12:47.type of political leadership of these actions that I think would
:12:47. > :12:56.help enforce the laws. Chris, you have to admit that you have to work
:12:56. > :13:02.at these things. It doesn't happen overnight. 14 years. I don't know
:13:02. > :13:07.about the colours being taken down one road one time and hundreds went
:13:07. > :13:11.up and Ian Paisley asked for a flag to be removed, and hundreds went up.
:13:11. > :13:18.Lads on the street and people who are continually trying to stop the
:13:18. > :13:24.trouble - do you want that happening just when a few flags are
:13:24. > :13:29.asked to be taken down? Hello, Nigel. Hello. How are you doing?
:13:29. > :13:33.You can speak to Jim. Just a point from the radio. I have listened
:13:33. > :13:38.again tonight. I am not really too sure what his point is. Is Jim
:13:38. > :13:42.concerned about positive change for the future, or is he more concerned
:13:42. > :13:48.that his own position as he describes it as a self-appointed
:13:48. > :13:52.gatekeeper would be overlooked and some positive action would happen?
:13:52. > :13:55.Because does he think that paramilitary murals, the marking of
:13:55. > :14:00.territory, the lack of investment in his community - do you think
:14:00. > :14:04.that's a good thing, or do you think it's a bad thing? Do you want
:14:04. > :14:09.to respond? There was an incident some years back in Claim Place, and
:14:09. > :14:15.we worked tremendously hard to bring east Belfast back on the map
:14:15. > :14:18.in a proper manner. It was in east Belfast. It was one of the areas
:14:18. > :14:22.that changed ten paramilitary murals to ten different murls -
:14:22. > :14:28.can't go through them all now, but in reference to the question about
:14:28. > :14:31.- I want to see us moving on, but I want to see it done right. I don't
:14:31. > :14:38.want to see people getting agitated and aggressive about what we're
:14:38. > :14:42.going to do. If we're going to do it, we'll do it all together,
:14:42. > :14:48.completely as a unit as opposed to leaving part of society feeling
:14:48. > :14:53.unwanted and unused and being used by certain people over the years.
:14:53. > :14:59.Why then are there paramilitary murals in the - why haven't you
:14:59. > :15:02.been able to deal with that? you'll let me answer is question -
:15:02. > :15:07.I'm going to answer the question for you - it's not only in loyalist
:15:07. > :15:11.areas. In Republican areas - I am explaining it to you. Let me
:15:11. > :15:14.explain what the answer to that is because I asked the people who done
:15:14. > :15:20.that. There was murals, nearly identical that went up in the White
:15:21. > :15:24.Rock area in a Nationalist area where... Let him finish. Were
:15:24. > :15:28.portrayed carrying the coffins of IRA volunteers and stuff like that.
:15:28. > :15:32.And loyalist areas we had an agreement that there would be no
:15:32. > :15:36.more murals. When people seen this happening, they decided to take it
:15:36. > :15:39.upon themselves. That's my answer. A commentary at the very front.
:15:39. > :15:44.Let's have a little bit of straight talking here. Paramilitary flags
:15:44. > :15:47.are like a cancer that deface the areas that actually put them up.
:15:47. > :15:52.What do they represent? A celebration and remembrance of
:15:52. > :15:57.groups that murdered thousands of our fellow citizens, and in what
:15:57. > :16:02.way can they be tolerated by the law? If we cannot enforce the
:16:02. > :16:04.removal of every paramilitary flag, then that demonstrates, Stephen,
:16:04. > :16:11.unfortunately we haven't moved one jot beyond 1988.
:16:11. > :16:15.APPLAUSE You were, Duncan, with the
:16:15. > :16:18.Community Relations Council. Do you think we're in a position now in
:16:18. > :16:22.Northern Ireland where zero tolerance would actually overwhelm
:16:22. > :16:27.those who still think they've got the power to dictate what they want
:16:27. > :16:31.rather than what the law wants? It's absolutely critical now. It's
:16:31. > :16:35.14 years since the Good Friday Agreement, 18 years since the
:16:35. > :16:39.ceasefires that we have a really clear pathway to get there because
:16:39. > :16:43.I think as David said, the key issue is does this represent
:16:43. > :16:48.paramilitaries still being there? Are we being told 18 and 14 years
:16:48. > :16:52.on we're still having to deal with people who if we took these down
:16:52. > :16:58.there would be a violent response? Do you doubt that if the police
:16:58. > :17:02.moved into some of these areas - community worker support - let me
:17:02. > :17:05.be clear, I am not knocking every community worker. While I am in bed,
:17:05. > :17:09.they're up there and working hard. I acknowledge that but some
:17:09. > :17:14.community workers think they have power, and they think that for a
:17:14. > :17:18.reason - because they give the clout -- they do have clout and
:17:18. > :17:23.power. Are you seriously telling me if a police officer went in without
:17:23. > :17:27.the permission of the community they wouldn't get bricked and
:17:27. > :17:30.attacked? We know it happens. problem is that makes the point. We
:17:30. > :17:34.still have this kind of violence in this community. It's absolutely
:17:34. > :17:39.disastrous for working-class communities in the inner city
:17:39. > :17:42.because nobody's going to put any money in there or actually get any
:17:42. > :17:48.investment where it's urgently needed. I know Jim has done tonnes
:17:48. > :17:52.of good work over the years. I do know. I also know it is time to set
:17:52. > :17:56.a time line on this. It's 14 years too late. The police are the people
:17:56. > :17:59.who enforce the law, not community workers. That's what's gone wrong
:17:59. > :18:05.in Northern Ireland. We don't respect the proper force. There are
:18:05. > :18:09.no answers here. No, that's the problem here - not enough
:18:09. > :18:16.enforcement of the law. Very quickly, in the green shirt.
:18:16. > :18:19.Speaking of time lines, a simple question - yes or no - fast forward
:18:19. > :18:24.to 2026, would you ideally like flags to be gone from the streets
:18:24. > :18:29.of Northern Ireland? There are a lot of things I would like in this
:18:29. > :18:35.society to change. With flags? flags, everything. There is a lot I
:18:35. > :18:41.would like to see. Let's be real about it. David says it was 14
:18:41. > :18:45.years on since the peace process -, no, since political process. The
:18:45. > :18:47.peace process is miles behind it. No, no. That is a fact. That is a
:18:47. > :18:52.fact. APPLAUSE
:18:52. > :18:56.Seeing those loyal working class areas - we have been left behind
:18:56. > :19:00.big time with no political representation - compared to Sinn
:19:00. > :19:06.Fein, we have very little... thing is the biggest party in the
:19:06. > :19:10.country is the DUP. What are you talk about? They represent working-
:19:10. > :19:15.class loyalists. The last time Ian Paisley and people like that
:19:15. > :19:19.represented the loyalists - when people took -
:19:19. > :19:22.ALL SPEAK AT ONCE You have no authority because
:19:22. > :19:25.nobody votes... I am not talking about authority. I am talking about
:19:25. > :19:30.no representation and loyalist communities being left behind in
:19:30. > :19:37.this, and we're doing the same with the peace process - the peace
:19:37. > :19:41.process hasn't won 14 years... don't have the votes.
:19:41. > :19:48.You may say that and see that it way, but we sit there with the
:19:48. > :19:52.police and interfaces all over Belfast. We sit down with
:19:52. > :19:55.politicians to deal with issues in Belfast, and if we didn't do that
:19:55. > :20:01.do you think the police would be able to get on with investigating
:20:01. > :20:09.old people getting beat up, robberies, burglaries, all sorts of
:20:09. > :20:16.stuff? Is it the community workers, then? Are you listening?
:20:16. > :20:21.Yeah, but the point I am make to you is we're out there doing it and
:20:21. > :20:25.doing it without pay. We're nearly out of time, but tell me this - why
:20:25. > :20:29.do you think loyalists aren't getting the votes you need to have
:20:29. > :20:32.the authority in the democratic process? Why not? There is a lot of
:20:32. > :20:36.things - I don't want to say about the racketeering and the gangsters.
:20:36. > :20:40.That has a part to play, but also Unionist people have been very
:20:40. > :20:45.adverse to voting to people who came from a paramilitary background,
:20:45. > :20:49.simple as that. That's the way unionism has been over the years.
:20:49. > :20:57.They don't readily take to people who came from a violent background
:20:57. > :21:01.to where we are today, simple as that. In the meantime, keep the
:21:01. > :21:04.voting going. Please thank Jim and our guests. Thank you very much
:21:04. > :21:10.indeed. Thank you, Chris. Thank you very much.
:21:10. > :21:20.Right. Please remember you need to type "vote" before yes or no or
:21:20. > :21:23.
:21:23. > :21:27.Here's what's still to come: two mothers are so desperate to help
:21:27. > :21:32.their sons hooked on drugs, they got them both arrested. Now, next
:21:32. > :21:39.up, for years my guest was the face of children's TV before presenting
:21:39. > :21:43.Top Of The Pops. A lads' mag pin-up at the height of her success, a 60-
:21:43. > :21:49.foot naked image of her was famously splashed across the Houses
:21:49. > :21:53.of Parliament. Incredibly, that was back in 1999. Since then she's
:21:53. > :21:58.struggled with eating disorders, depression, suicide and was
:21:58. > :21:59.sectioned under the Mental Health Act. Ladies and gentlemen, please
:21:59. > :22:09.welcome Gail Porter. APPLAUSE
:22:09. > :22:09.
:22:09. > :22:16.Hello, Gail. Good to see you. Good to see you.
:22:16. > :22:20.They like you. Just makes me sound bonkers. No, it doesn't make you
:22:20. > :22:25.bonkers. It's just a bit different, isn't it? Well, you have had a
:22:25. > :22:28.roller coaster life, haven't you? If you start the story from when
:22:28. > :22:33.you were seen and perceived as having everything in your life that
:22:33. > :22:38.lots of people would want - famous, on TV, getting the money, on the
:22:38. > :22:42.side of the - the Houses of Parliament... No, if you'd seen my
:22:42. > :22:46.mother and father when I was on the side of the Houses of Parliament no,
:22:46. > :22:51.they weren't happy. My dad still doesn't admit it happened. Did you
:22:51. > :22:58.know it was going to happen? No, it was done behind my back. It's fine
:22:58. > :23:03.now, but my daughter keeps saying to me, "Mummy, never, I would never
:23:03. > :23:06.do that." Can we bring this up just one more time? Oh! We'll see if we
:23:06. > :23:10.can get it up on the side of the Houses of Parliament. Tell me why
:23:10. > :23:14.this wasn't discussed with you and your reaction when you felt that
:23:14. > :23:18.you were there? Well, I was having a bit of a - I don't know - if
:23:18. > :23:23.someone said, "Don't do something," I would do it. I was one of those
:23:23. > :23:28.sort of kids at school, and I went to do this FHM shoot, and because
:23:28. > :23:34.I've got a funny body shape and sort of had big boobs and small
:23:34. > :23:39.legs - well, that's what they said, and they talked me into just not
:23:39. > :23:43.wearing anything. I said, that's a great idea - also a few glasses of
:23:43. > :23:47.champagne later. And that's it. Yeah. That frightened my
:23:47. > :23:53.grandfather, so what we did was they took the picture, and then put
:23:53. > :23:56.it on the front cover, never got paid for it, and then I was
:23:56. > :24:00.brushing my teeth in the morning, and I was in my bathroom, and BBC
:24:00. > :24:04.News was on, and my name came up in the knew, and my name doesn't come
:24:04. > :24:09.up in the news. I went through and saw this image, and I kept thinking
:24:09. > :24:13.someone had put a DVD in or it was a joke or I was going through - it
:24:13. > :24:19.was video in those days, not BetaMax. It was video. It turned
:24:19. > :24:24.out it was my bottom on the houses. It was all completely illegal. My
:24:24. > :24:28.grandfather was very proud of me eventually. When was that, Gail?
:24:28. > :24:32.1999. And by 2003 you were diagnosed with post natal
:24:32. > :24:37.depression? Yes. Four years later. Can you remember when you first
:24:37. > :24:43.thought to yourself, hold on a moment? With the post natal
:24:43. > :24:48.depression? Yeah, was there a time, a place, day? I struggled all the
:24:48. > :24:52.way through my pregnancy, and then when I had my daughter, my ex-
:24:52. > :24:57.husband was brilliant, but he was on tour for - he was a musician, so
:24:57. > :25:01.he was off quite a lot, and my parents were up in Scotland, and I
:25:01. > :25:06.just started to panic, and I didn't want anyone to touch my daughter. I
:25:06. > :25:10.was overprotective. I had a friend that had post natal depression, and
:25:10. > :25:14.she couldn't physically hold her baby, so in one way I was lucky,
:25:14. > :25:18.but I was - you know, if the midwife came around, I'd hide under
:25:18. > :25:21.the sofa, and I'd close the curtains and just didn't want
:25:21. > :25:28.anyone to come near me, then it started to get a little bit out of
:25:28. > :25:38.control, so yeah... And then 2005, and what a life you have had - up
:25:38. > :25:39.
:25:39. > :25:43.and downs. 2005, you separated from Dan, then March 2005, you attempted
:25:43. > :25:46.suicide. I didn't attempt suicide, no. That was what was in the paper,
:25:46. > :25:51.but what happened was I was suffering really badly from post
:25:51. > :25:56.natal depression, and my daughter had gone to school, and I hadn't
:25:56. > :26:02.slept for three or four days, and I have insome kneeia, just to add -
:26:02. > :26:05.another one. I think I am going to tick the boxes to go, yeah, I've
:26:05. > :26:10.got that. I was given sleeping tag tablets from the doctor. When she
:26:10. > :26:18.went to school, I took a couple, didn't work, took a couple more,
:26:18. > :26:21.then I realised once I'd started vomiting, oh, I've gone over - I
:26:21. > :26:24.never intentionally tried to kill myself. It was just utter
:26:24. > :26:27.exhaustion, and yeah, ended up in hospital. That was the same year
:26:27. > :26:31.your hair started falling out. another tick!
:26:31. > :26:36.LAUGHTER She said to me tonight when we
:26:36. > :26:40.walked into the dressing room - I hadn't met Gail until I saw you in
:26:40. > :26:46.the dressing room tonight - she said, "I got my hair done
:26:46. > :26:51.especially for you!" Yeah, you know what I did? I have a couple of Bigs,
:26:51. > :26:58.and I have a couple of stray bits coming up. Most women do their hair
:26:58. > :27:02.for things like this, so I did my hair with a Bick. You're incredibly
:27:02. > :27:05.brave because you're outspoken about mental health, which is a
:27:05. > :27:09.huge issue for us here in Northern Ireland. It's a huge issue for us
:27:09. > :27:14.now, but in Northern Ireland, we have very high rates of mental
:27:14. > :27:18.health comparatively speaking to the rest of the UK, and, you know,
:27:18. > :27:24.your lows - you go very, very low, and it's a constant struggle,
:27:24. > :27:29.right? Yeah, I think - I don't think I'm outspoken. I just think
:27:29. > :27:32.I'm very honest. I don't see - my hair fell out. It's very obvious.
:27:32. > :27:37.It's something you can see every day - you might as well talk about
:27:37. > :27:41.it. I am not going to hide. I am not ashamed. I've not got cancer. I
:27:41. > :27:47.am not dying. I am fortunate in a million other ways. When it comes
:27:47. > :27:51.to my depression, yeah, I am up and down. I can be extremely excitable,
:27:51. > :28:01.then very, very depressed and I don't want to get out of bed.
:28:01. > :28:03.
:28:03. > :28:09.you describe the downs? It is just You just do not want to get up. If
:28:09. > :28:13.I didn't have my daughter, I would struggle. Sorry. I think one in
:28:13. > :28:19.four people suffer from up-and- downs. I am sure a lot of people
:28:19. > :28:23.have had them. A come on. Back me up, here. I think everyone gets
:28:23. > :28:29.them and it can be to do with work and all sorts of things. And there
:28:29. > :28:35.will be so many people tonight's... I have just had my make-up done!
:28:35. > :28:40.Are you OK? Yes, I am fine. I think there will be so many people at
:28:40. > :28:43.home and they will be in that group of one in four. A lot of people do
:28:43. > :28:48.not like to talk about it and one of the good things, when I started
:28:48. > :28:53.to talk about it, and my hair and stuff, I used to go to Sainsbury's
:28:53. > :28:58.for 20 minutes. It now takes about an hour and a half. Everybody stops
:28:58. > :29:03.me and goes, do you know what? My sister, or my brother... It is good
:29:03. > :29:13.to talk about these things but sometimes it is a bit hard.
:29:13. > :29:15.
:29:15. > :29:20.making a documentary for the BBC... You are? Yes. Yes, because there is
:29:20. > :29:24.mental health week next spring. I am doing one as well. We can be
:29:24. > :29:30.crazy together! Here is this complex lady and you are greying --
:29:30. > :29:35.crying at the same time as you are laughing... It is because I am mad!
:29:35. > :29:39.No, sorry. I am looking at your arms and there are the scars where
:29:39. > :29:44.you have been cutting yourself. do not do it any more but when I
:29:44. > :29:50.was very depressed I used to self- harm. Why? I have absolutely no
:29:50. > :29:55.idea. It was like a release. there that much pain from the
:29:55. > :29:59.depression that you need that release? Well, I'm Scottish. We are
:29:59. > :30:03.Celtic. We do not talk about things and then when I stopped talking
:30:03. > :30:07.about things I start doing crazy things like hurting myself. But at
:30:07. > :30:11.the time when I was doing it I did not think anything of it and now I
:30:12. > :30:16.look and I think, well... I covered my arms up for years and now I
:30:16. > :30:20.think, I have done it and there is nothing I can do about it. What is
:30:20. > :30:26.the hope you can give people battering mental ill-health at home
:30:26. > :30:31.now in Northern Ireland? What is your advice? What I did was I
:30:31. > :30:35.talked to my friends, and I do not think that I am any different from
:30:35. > :30:38.anyone else. I have gone through my problems and we all go through
:30:39. > :30:42.problems and handle them in different ways. If you have got
:30:42. > :30:46.friends, you must talk to your friends because if you do not, I
:30:46. > :30:50.think one of the reasons I used to hurt myself was because I did not
:30:50. > :30:54.speak to anyone. I kept it all inside and that was the way of
:30:54. > :31:01.expressing myself, to myself, and the best thing I ever did was speak
:31:01. > :31:08.to my friends. Doctors, I am sure a lot of them are great... You were
:31:08. > :31:11.sectioned at one point. Yes! Sorry, it is not funny. I just was very
:31:11. > :31:16.depressed and my partner at the time was not sure what to do with
:31:16. > :31:21.me and he was a lot younger than me so he just got me sectioned. I am
:31:21. > :31:28.writing a book about that. It will be at next year. Just in time for
:31:28. > :31:32.Christmas! Just to cheer everyone up! So the prevailing message from
:31:32. > :31:37.you tonight is if you do have a mental health issue, talk about it.
:31:37. > :31:42.Find a friend, talk about it. Do not Lockett inside. Yes, the more
:31:42. > :31:45.you Lockett inside the more it is going to explode. There are so many
:31:45. > :31:50.different things, whether depression or other things. I met
:31:50. > :31:58.loads of people when I was sectioned that were not very well.
:31:58. > :32:03.But you are fighting. So I felt better. It is terrible. Yes, yes.
:32:03. > :32:09.You are writing a book. I am doing stand-up. And you are blowing about
:32:09. > :32:13.your daughter. Yes, she's great and by ex husband has been brilliant.
:32:13. > :32:17.It is a difficult thing to talk about it but you would be surprised
:32:17. > :32:22.how many people go through it and do not talk about it. You made me
:32:22. > :32:26.cry, Stephen! What is wrong with you? What did I say to you? I am
:32:26. > :32:29.sure there will be people at home and in this audience that will be
:32:29. > :32:39.thinking to themselves, thank goodness there is someone like you
:32:39. > :32:46.
:32:46. > :32:52.that has the guts and the bravery Thank you for having me. I was
:32:52. > :32:57.thinking of auditioning for Star Trek! Do you not think? No! Do you
:32:57. > :33:06.know what she said before she came on? That she was really nervous and
:33:06. > :33:10.bored I go easy on her! What did you say? Wind your neck in. He said,
:33:10. > :33:20.if you are really -- and really mean in Ireland, you say, will wind
:33:20. > :33:23.
:33:23. > :33:28.your neck in! Ladies and gentlemen, Here is what is still to come. A
:33:28. > :33:32.Football Club has announced it is taking on a goalkeeper on a trial
:33:32. > :33:37.races when he is released from prison after killing two children
:33:37. > :33:47.by drink-driving. Should obey even touch him? Do not forget the text
:33:47. > :33:49.
:33:49. > :33:54.Please remember it took vote. -- please remember to put the word
:33:54. > :33:58.vote before "yes" or "no". Imagine you trailed his high on
:33:58. > :34:03.drugs, bashing his head off a wall and threatening to kill himself.
:34:03. > :34:08.What would you do? Where would you go for help? You return to the
:34:08. > :34:12.authorities, right? But you are about to hear from two distraught
:34:12. > :34:16.mothers who claim the system keep turning their suicidal sons back
:34:16. > :34:24.out again and the only way they can has saved them is to get the police
:34:24. > :34:29.to arrest them. He was trailing his legs, foaming at the mouth. He was
:34:29. > :34:33.head-butting the walls. I said, there is no way I am taking him
:34:33. > :34:43.home like that. I have other children at home. I cannot be
:34:43. > :34:45.
:34:45. > :34:49.Her son was acting so violently that police maintained a presence
:34:49. > :34:54.at the hospital while medics assessed 10 but once discharged,
:34:55. > :34:59.they had no responsibility to protect his mother. The policeman
:35:00. > :35:02.apologised to me because I had to take him away. He said, I know it
:35:02. > :35:10.is ridiculous but this is the system and there is nowhere for him
:35:10. > :35:14.to go. Nowhere for him to go? broke my heart taking him home.
:35:14. > :35:20.He's a big lad, I had to put him in my bed between me and my daughter
:35:20. > :35:30.to make sure he did not leave. nightmare was just beginning. Four
:35:30. > :35:34.days later, as her son started to come down from the drugs, she
:35:34. > :35:40.threatened suicide. He left with a belt and said he was going to hang
:35:40. > :35:43.himself. The child and adolescent mental health service was where
:35:43. > :35:50.Margaret went to try to finally find someone to help a with the
:35:50. > :35:55.situation. I thought when I took him into hospital I was taking him
:35:55. > :35:59.somewhere there was going to be a bed. When I got there they said, he
:35:59. > :36:05.is to highly on the influence -- under the influence of drugs.
:36:05. > :36:13.are getting the runaround, going from one organisation to the next?
:36:13. > :36:18.Jane, your story is similar. Yes. Your son is running around your
:36:18. > :36:24.house with a knife? Yes. Threatening what? That he is going
:36:24. > :36:32.to cut his own throat, attack me, whatever. If he is so high on these
:36:32. > :36:37.drugs he can just flip at any minute. From going from a calm
:36:37. > :36:44.fellow at to it somebody that... You do not know them any more.
:36:44. > :36:47.are not your child. There is not one bed in Northern Ireland for a
:36:47. > :36:52.child's with no diagnosed mental health problems to come down safely
:36:52. > :36:57.off drugs. So what have our mother's done? They have adopted a
:36:57. > :37:04.novel approach to dealing with their children. When they act up
:37:04. > :37:09.they get them arrested. I am the one who has a criminal record, so I
:37:09. > :37:14.have had to use the police to help me deal with him. Because nobody
:37:14. > :37:23.else will help him? Nobody else will. I have done it in the same
:37:23. > :37:29.way. I have had him arrested. I know the system now. I will not go
:37:29. > :37:32.down to get him while he is being interviewed because I know I will
:37:32. > :37:36.have to take him home again. I refuse to give a bail address until
:37:36. > :37:41.he is clean. When you had your child did you think you would have
:37:41. > :37:49.to do this? Now. You should be able to put them in a secure Unit
:37:49. > :37:58.without having them charged and arrest. It strikes me that you as
:37:58. > :38:03.parents are fighting so hard. actually told by a policeman
:38:03. > :38:11.recently, throw him out. I said, he is 16. Brady's reign? Jane, there
:38:11. > :38:18.are tears in your eyes. Why? Because you love them. If anything
:38:18. > :38:23.happened to my wee lad, I could say, Jane is the same, we have done at
:38:23. > :38:30.best, tried our best as parents. have not every door but someone
:38:30. > :38:33.needs to help us, to help these children.
:38:33. > :38:39.I am sure that some of you will find yourself in a similar
:38:39. > :38:45.situation. Please pick up your phone. By the way, the text vote
:38:45. > :38:55.for the first debate is now closed. Please do not vote. You may still
:38:55. > :38:59.
:38:59. > :39:03.be charged. Please welcome our next Hello, Philip. I am trying to get
:39:03. > :39:08.my head around this because we want this programme, and the radio shows
:39:08. > :39:11.we do, to try to provide a platform so that people can engage with
:39:11. > :39:15.Government, can say, this is what we need and if it is reasonable
:39:15. > :39:20.Government will try to deliver it. And it seems to me that if you have
:39:20. > :39:23.someone, a young person, and they are high on drugs and their mothers
:39:23. > :39:29.and fathers cannot control them, and they are appealing to the
:39:30. > :39:34.authorities for help, it seems absolutely crazy that those people
:39:34. > :39:37.cannot get a psychiatric report until they come down from the high,
:39:37. > :39:43.but when they are high and they are mad and they are hurting themselves
:39:44. > :39:48.and their family, they cannot get secure accommodation. It just does
:39:48. > :39:53.not seem logical. I have listened behind the screen there. I didn't
:39:53. > :39:56.get the full sound quality. It is a terribly distressing thing for
:39:56. > :40:00.those mothers and for the young men themselves. We have a problem in
:40:00. > :40:05.our society which features on the radio show quite often about the
:40:05. > :40:10.problems among young people using drugs and alcohol. There is a
:40:10. > :40:15.particular problem when people are high, intoxicated, were on drugs or
:40:15. > :40:17.alcohol. You will be well aware of what goes on in Accident and
:40:17. > :40:21.Emergency departments on Friday and Saturday nights. Lots of people
:40:21. > :40:26.have gone out for the evening quite well, end up in A&E much the worse
:40:26. > :40:33.for wear, bringing huge difficulties. A&E departments to
:40:33. > :40:36.cope with... Come on. This is well beyond this. Those parents buy Net
:40:36. > :40:44.are at their wits end and they have to get their sums arrested to get
:40:44. > :40:48.help. The somebody is high and violent and threatening, it is
:40:48. > :40:52.difficult for health staff to be dealing with that. Why don't we
:40:52. > :40:56.have a secure unit in Northern Ireland, a care facility? We have a
:40:56. > :41:00.lot of care facilities and very good resources but there is an
:41:00. > :41:07.issue if people do choose to take alcohol or drugs and become
:41:07. > :41:10.aggressive. It is hard to manage in a care setting by health staff. If
:41:10. > :41:14.people are aggressive and very difficult, it is very challenging
:41:14. > :41:19.for everybody to manage their situation. But, Philip, if a young
:41:19. > :41:23.person decides they are in trouble and they are hooked on drugs and
:41:23. > :41:27.they are off the wall and they are begging for help, are they going to
:41:27. > :41:32.get it? Yes. We have a very comprehensive range of services in
:41:32. > :41:38.Northern Ireland, ranging right through from the voluntary sector
:41:38. > :41:42.to the statutory sector, intensive day treatment and so on. Those
:41:42. > :41:46.services are being build up. There are huge numbers of young people
:41:46. > :41:51.being seen day in, day out. So what should those parents have done?
:41:51. > :41:55.Their sons were of the scale. I heard the story. They have to get
:41:55. > :41:59.them locked up. They have to call the police for help because when
:41:59. > :42:05.they go to the state facility, the state health facility, they say,
:42:05. > :42:10.sorry, you cannot get a psychiatric assessment and because your son is
:42:10. > :42:14.high. It somebody is actually high, it is impossible to do any
:42:14. > :42:18.meaningful psychological assessment. So let's provide the weasels where
:42:18. > :42:24.they can go and be helped. I have talked to a colleague today who
:42:24. > :42:27.works in a any and he says that Dalya and day out he has young
:42:27. > :42:34.people coming in through the doors. They are offered support and
:42:34. > :42:39.counselling. Many young people... And then sent back home? Many young
:42:39. > :42:42.people are not able to Brit -- take up a particular thing. If people
:42:42. > :42:46.are violent and threatening There is an issue for staff and other
:42:46. > :42:56.patients. Many young people in this state are managed very well by the
:42:56. > :43:18.
:43:18. > :43:23.Now, you see, the wrong in that is that's people with mental health
:43:23. > :43:28.problems and substance abuse. That's the rub in that. But if
:43:28. > :43:31.you've got substance abuse problems and you're really needing help, you
:43:31. > :43:35.can't get into Beechcroft. That was from the Health and Social Care
:43:35. > :43:39.Board, by the way, but that's the bit in that statement you should be
:43:39. > :43:43.aware of. You cannot get in. evidence for the value of in-
:43:43. > :43:47.patient treatment for people misusing substances is very limited,
:43:47. > :43:51.and the evidence is much, much more in favour of intensive day
:43:51. > :43:53.treatment, outpatient work, counselling. That's fine. It is
:43:53. > :44:01.being developed for Northern Ireland, to put a high level...
:44:01. > :44:05.You're the expert, Philip. I'm not, but if Yu got a 6'0 18-year-old
:44:05. > :44:11.wrecking the house and they're high on drugs, and the 18-year-old is
:44:11. > :44:16.saying, "Mum, I really need help and I am out of control" and all
:44:16. > :44:19.you can do is pick up the phone and get your own son arrested and can't
:44:19. > :44:24.pick up the phone to the Health Service of Northern Ireland and say,
:44:24. > :44:30."Please take this young person who is asking for hope the a secure
:44:30. > :44:35.unit?" Is it too much to ask for the future in Northern Ireland?
:44:35. > :44:39.you're - somebody who is aggressive cannot be managed in a health
:44:39. > :44:42.facility for people who are vulnerable. Hospitals are for
:44:42. > :44:45.people who are particularly vulnerable. If somebody goes out
:44:45. > :44:48.tonight after this programme takes a lot of drink, gets behind the
:44:49. > :44:52.wheel of a car and knocks somebody over and kills them, there is not
:44:52. > :44:55.much of a defence in court, "Your Honour, I was drunk, because you
:44:55. > :44:59.had the capacity to take the substance in the first place.
:44:59. > :45:03.we're talking about here are young people that before they commit a
:45:03. > :45:09.crime when they're on drugs, OK... But somebody who is aggressive,
:45:09. > :45:12.Steven, is very difficult - They're asking for help before they commit
:45:12. > :45:17.the crime, which is why there needs to be a specialised unit, surely.
:45:17. > :45:23.The Health and Social Care Board say in partnership with local
:45:23. > :45:28.trusts are taken steps to develop crisis home treatment teams to
:45:28. > :45:31.respond to young people who are in crisis. I myself have worked in
:45:31. > :45:35.home treatment and the adult centre. We're developing a number of
:45:36. > :45:41.services within the Belfast and South-Eastern Trust. There is an
:45:41. > :45:47.enhanced development of the drugs and alcohol team for adolescents.
:45:47. > :45:52.There is a crisis home treatment team.
:45:52. > :45:56.For example, the excellent FASA organisation, a voluntary
:45:56. > :46:01.organisation, they have workers employed with the Belfast Trust in
:46:01. > :46:05.the emergency department providing services even as we speak. Those
:46:05. > :46:10.developments are taking place on a very welcoming, encouraging...
:46:10. > :46:15.James, we'll put you on the radio in the morning. We're pushed for
:46:15. > :46:20.time. He says his daughter has a bad time with legal highs using NRD.
:46:20. > :46:23.He says he's so worried about her. He can't get any help. He's
:46:23. > :46:27.contacted social services three times, and no-one has got back to
:46:27. > :46:32.him. There is another person asking for help. We have to leave it there.
:46:32. > :46:36.Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Philip McGarrin. Thank you.
:46:36. > :46:39.APPLAUSE Loads of you have been contacting
:46:39. > :46:49.us while we have been on air. Please keep your stories coming in.
:46:49. > :47:12.
:47:12. > :47:16.Actually, quite a lot of comments coming in tonight. Cathy in Newton
:47:16. > :47:22.abbey says drugs are taking over this country. "Now the best we can
:47:22. > :47:28.do is admit it and get help for our young people", another says "I know
:47:28. > :47:36.exactly what that mum is going through. I work every day with
:47:36. > :47:43.young people high on drugs." You'll see contact details on your
:47:43. > :47:49.screen - if you want to contact me - God forbid - 24 hours a day - you
:47:49. > :47:54.can. Cheltenham Town have announced
:47:54. > :47:59.they're signing up McCormack. He killed two children in a car crash
:47:59. > :48:04.in 2008. The former Plymouth goalie was over the alcohol limit when the
:48:04. > :48:07.high-speed crash happened. 28-year- old McCormack is scheduled for
:48:07. > :48:14.early release next month after serving four years of a seven-year
:48:14. > :48:17.sentence. He's done his time and deserves a second chance. That's
:48:17. > :48:22.what Derek Hatton thinks. Please welcome him.
:48:22. > :48:30.APPLAUSE Good to see you.
:48:30. > :48:35.You all right? Thank you. Swindon should avoid the blow - that's
:48:35. > :48:40.Terry's take. Here he is ladies and gentlemen. Hello. Good to see you.
:48:40. > :48:43.It's interesting - what's your take on it? The obvious line is to say,
:48:43. > :48:47.well, he's done his time, and fine - he should be given a second
:48:47. > :48:52.chance. I remember at the time when this all happened the Chief
:48:52. > :48:56.Executive of Plymouth argyle - used to be the Chief Executive at
:48:56. > :49:00.Dunford - I knew very well. I remember Michael saying if he had a
:49:00. > :49:03.list of the 11 players in Plymouth he would be at the bottom of the
:49:03. > :49:08.list of the people he thought would do this. It's very much out of
:49:08. > :49:13.character. Don't get me wrong. He deserve everything he got, but I
:49:13. > :49:18.think now, you should say, perhaps he deserves a second chance, but
:49:18. > :49:21.now you say if he's going to have a second chance he doesn't just play
:49:21. > :49:25.football but every week he goes around schools in Swindon, and
:49:25. > :49:29.while he's at those schools he does education stuff for drink.
:49:29. > :49:34.think, Terry, of how impressional young people are of footballers.
:49:34. > :49:38.They idolise them, don't they? A footballer has so much power. He
:49:38. > :49:43.should never be putting on a shirt again? I don't think so. From the
:49:43. > :49:46.point of view of any other job, fine. But as a footballer here,
:49:46. > :49:49.going to be in the press all the time. Maybe he's going to get
:49:49. > :49:54.praise. Maybe he's on Match of the Day. You have to think of the
:49:54. > :50:00.parents of those kids. They're getting that reminder all day every
:50:00. > :50:05.day. I am not even blaming the footballer here. In some ways he
:50:05. > :50:10.was unlicky. Unlucky? In so far as he was there. Lots of feecious have
:50:10. > :50:14.been caught unlucky. He got into a car drunk and killed two kids.
:50:14. > :50:18.What's unlucky about that? A lot of footballers have done that but he
:50:18. > :50:23.actually kids those kids. They were unlucky too, but what really kind
:50:23. > :50:29.of grates on me is this Swindon Town chairman making out that he's
:50:29. > :50:37.doing some good for society by, "I'm going to bring in these
:50:37. > :50:41.excons." Well, I'd like to see how many exconvicts he's got working at
:50:41. > :50:50.Swindon town? I think we can join him by Skype. The chairman of
:50:50. > :50:53.Swindon Town is Jeremy Ray. Hi. Thank you for talking to us. The
:50:53. > :50:58.pickture quality isn't great, but we can hear you. Why are you doing
:50:58. > :51:01.this? I need to correct you on the facts. We were approached before
:51:01. > :51:05.Christmas when we were told he was due for release in early June, and
:51:05. > :51:08.actually, they said when he was due out for a day release a couple of
:51:08. > :51:13.days a month as part of his rehabilitation, they said could he
:51:13. > :51:16.come out and train with the squad? I'd like to make it very clear we
:51:16. > :51:20.have not signed Luke McCormack. He's not been offered a contract or
:51:20. > :51:23.paid any money at all, so I know that's not the sensationalist head
:51:23. > :51:27.line some of the tabloids were looking for, but the truth is we
:51:27. > :51:30.thought long and hard about this, that the point that Derek made
:51:31. > :51:35.about his previous character - we obviously checked that out, and
:51:35. > :51:40.having spoken to him, he's full of remorse, this lad. He realise whaz
:51:40. > :51:46.he did was horrendously wrong. He wants to give something back and
:51:46. > :51:50.give the -- get the opportunity to do that. Can you ever rule out him
:51:50. > :51:55.wearing a Swindon town football top? I certainly can in the near
:51:55. > :51:58.future. When he comes back into society, it's one step at a time.
:51:58. > :52:02.Unfortunately, because he's a goalkeeper, it's a very lonely
:52:02. > :52:05.position. If you did give him a contract, would you be prepared to
:52:05. > :52:10.write into that that maybe a couple of times a week he should actually
:52:10. > :52:14.go to schools and do something on drink-driving? I don't need write
:52:14. > :52:18.that out because while he was in prison he contacted the PFA himself
:52:18. > :52:22.and said, "When I come out I want to have the opportunity on days off
:52:22. > :52:29.to go and speak with young apprentices," he actually high
:52:29. > :52:34.lielted, "to point out the error I committed and point out how by one
:52:34. > :52:37.foolish act they can destroy their careers." My point is it's
:52:37. > :52:42.impossible for a human being not to feel terrible remorse. You know, if
:52:42. > :52:46.I was a person who had done that but still in terms of him having a
:52:46. > :52:50.high-profile job, he's not working in factory. He's not working in an
:52:50. > :52:54.office. He's going to be on TV. He's going to be in the papers if
:52:54. > :52:58.he does work as that. It's just a constant reminder of the pain, and
:52:58. > :53:02.it's rubbing it in the faces of that family. Let's ask this lady at
:53:02. > :53:06.the back. On Tuesday, it will be ten years since I lost a sister
:53:06. > :53:11.through a similar case of a drunk driver killing two girls, in fact,
:53:11. > :53:16.at that time. And from my perspective of a grieving family, I
:53:16. > :53:23.feel that the problem here is not with Swindon town, and in fact, in
:53:23. > :53:28.a way, it's not to do with Luke. It's to do with the sentencing, and
:53:28. > :53:36.the sentencing that the Judeish system is being forced to apply,
:53:36. > :53:42.and unless we make a step forward in proving that, people will not be
:53:42. > :53:45.under - they will continue to get into cars drunk in whatever
:53:45. > :53:49.capacity that may be. Thank you very much for your contribution
:53:49. > :53:53.tonight. This young man here, second row. Go ahead, sir. Yes, go
:53:53. > :53:56.ahead. Yes? I just think it sends out the wrong message to other
:53:56. > :54:00.footballers and other celebrities that, you know, these guys think
:54:00. > :54:04.they're above the law and they can just do what they want. Also, I
:54:04. > :54:09.think is the guy really... So no second chance? You have served your
:54:09. > :54:13.sentence. Sorry. I missed your name. I think you had the - you had the
:54:13. > :54:16.best idea - is because the reality is the only reason we're talking
:54:16. > :54:20.about this tonight is the sentence wasn't enough. He should have been
:54:20. > :54:24.in a position where he had a much larger sentence. He killed two kids.
:54:24. > :54:31.I'm sorry. That's what he should do. Once he doesn't get that, he comes
:54:31. > :54:38.back into his job as a footballer, and he should be given a second
:54:38. > :54:42.chance! In some ways - you have had the Lee Yu case and other
:54:42. > :54:48.footballers who have been done for drunk driving - they seem to see
:54:48. > :54:52.this as a match ban. You can continue this conversation on
:54:52. > :54:56.Twitter. Let's look at this other story
:54:56. > :55:00.tonight - 2012 - here we are in 2012, and London's gearing up for
:55:00. > :55:03.the Olympics, and the owner of a legal brothel in the United States
:55:03. > :55:10.has called for the legalisation of prostitution in London for the
:55:10. > :55:16.duration of the Games. I'm joined live from Nevada by the man himself,
:55:16. > :55:20.Dennis Hoff. Hello to you, Dennis. You're talking to us from Nevada
:55:20. > :55:27.tonight. The legalisation of prostitution - why? Well, it takes
:55:27. > :55:31.away the sex trafficking. When you Google "Sex trafficking" in
:55:31. > :55:36.Northern Ireland, 700,000 things come up, in the UK, three million
:55:36. > :55:41.things come up. It's a horrendous problem worldwide, but you've got a
:55:41. > :55:46.lot of it there. We have David McElveen with us. Hello. What do
:55:46. > :55:49.you think? I am very much opposed to the legalisation of prostitution
:55:49. > :55:54.simply because I believe fundamentally it degrades women. I
:55:54. > :55:58.am against prostitution, full stop. When the abolition of slavery took
:55:58. > :56:02.place in the 19th century, people were very glad and very pleased
:56:02. > :56:06.about that. I think this is another form of slavery. We might call it
:56:06. > :56:10.people trafficking. We might call it exploitation, but this is the
:56:10. > :56:14.abuse of women, and I think it's something that we should resist and
:56:14. > :56:17.should reject very strongly. Whether we like it or not, it's the
:56:17. > :56:21.oldest industry in the world. Whether we like it or not,
:56:21. > :56:24.everybody has always wanted it. Whatever way you look at it, women
:56:24. > :56:28.and blokes have wanted it. It's sex. There is nothing fundamentally
:56:28. > :56:34.wrong with sex. The reality is it's the way it's organised. Surely our
:56:34. > :56:37.friend here has got a point. The Hoff has a point. Steve, what we
:56:37. > :56:41.saw in the news today was frightened women. We saw the police
:56:41. > :56:46.breaking doors down. We saw frightened women, some of whom were
:56:46. > :56:52.arrested, some of whom were rescued, and we didn't see the shadowy
:56:52. > :56:56.figures behind this, but we saw those frightened women. If you walk
:56:56. > :57:00.out of the studio tonight, you'll see those same frightened women
:57:00. > :57:04.outside this building. Is this the best way of controlling it? Is he
:57:04. > :57:06.offering to become the kind of pimp in charge of the Olympics?
:57:06. > :57:12.LAUGHTER Do you want London 2012 to be known
:57:12. > :57:22.as "the Pimp Olympics" - change Team GB to Team VD?
:57:22. > :57:25.LAUGHTER APPLAUSE
:57:25. > :57:31.He's out to advertise himself. think it's really inappropriate
:57:31. > :57:36.Terry has come back from - when we last seen him to come and make
:57:36. > :57:41.jokes about this subject. I'm not making jokes. I am criticising the
:57:41. > :57:46.guy for bringing it up at this time. He's trying to cash in on the
:57:46. > :57:51.publicity. Whether he should or shouldn't, the principle is still
:57:51. > :57:55.important - there always has been and always will be prostitution, it
:57:55. > :58:01.should be controlled. It's a view of this programme - if you're in
:58:01. > :58:11.bed tonight watching the telly, you can continue to talk about this on
:58:11. > :58:21.
:58:21. > :58:24.Twitter on Stephen Nolan. Interesting stat, that, is so 80%
:58:24. > :58:28.of you suggesting that now is the time in Northern Ireland to take
:58:28. > :58:32.them down. Where is Jim Wilson? Quickly, what is your reaction?
:58:32. > :58:35.Doesn't surprise me. Does 80% disagree with you? No, doesn't
:58:35. > :58:39.surprise - it surprises me 80% want to take them down, but it's the
:58:39. > :58:42.manner how you get rid of them and how you get people to want to
:58:42. > :58:47.remove them from society. Jim, thank you very much indeed. Please
:58:47. > :58:51.don't forget, if you've got a story, will you bring it to the programme?
:58:51. > :58:54.Bbc.co.uk/Nolan is the website address. There is the e-mail:
:58:54. > :58:59.And don't forget, if you want to be in the audience, there is the