:00:06. > :00:11.Controversy as the first private clinic to offer abortions to women
:00:11. > :00:14.in Northern Ireland opens tomorrow. Thousands are expected to take to
:00:14. > :00:19.the streets against government cuts in Belfast on Saturday.
:00:19. > :00:21.Edwina Currie is here to battle it out with the unions.
:00:21. > :00:23.And trial by tabloid. Christopher Jefferies, hounded by the media
:00:23. > :00:33.after being arrested in a murder investigation, is here to tell us
:00:33. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:15.Hello and welcome. I know you at home will want to get involved in
:01:15. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :01:34.this programme tonight. Here's how Tomorrow, the first private clinic
:01:34. > :01:36.to offer abortions to women in Northern Ireland will open. Run by
:01:36. > :01:40.Marie Stopes, it will provide terminations within the current
:01:41. > :01:46.legal framework here. Abortions in Northern Ireland are not illegal
:01:46. > :01:48.but are very strictly controlled. They can only be carried out to
:01:48. > :01:55.preserve the life of the mother, or if continuing the pregnancy would
:01:55. > :01:57.have other serious, long term physical or mental health effects.
:01:57. > :02:03.Marie Stopes says it will carry out medical, not surgical, procedures
:02:03. > :02:05.only up to the nine weeks' gestation period. Joining me to
:02:05. > :02:14.discuss this is Vice-President of Marie Stopes International, Tracey
:02:14. > :02:18.McNeill. And Bernie Smyth from Precious Life. Good to see you. Why
:02:18. > :02:24.have you come to an audit arm and? We have come to offer a service
:02:24. > :02:31.that we know he's needed. We have been inundated from people calling
:02:31. > :02:36.us and our phone lines have been really busy wanting advice and
:02:36. > :02:40.counselling and to access what we believe will be a world-class
:02:40. > :02:46.service on reproductive health and family planning. You're not
:02:46. > :02:50.offering anything but the NHS does not currently offer? For the first
:02:50. > :02:57.time we want to offer a service under one roof where people can
:02:57. > :03:02.easily access that. It is A1 stop shop. You can get advice and
:03:02. > :03:07.counselling in a purpose-built facility. And we're proud of that
:03:07. > :03:12.facility, it is in the centre of Belfast and easy to get to. The
:03:12. > :03:18.main thing we are trying to do is to offer men and women a choice.
:03:18. > :03:23.what is the problem? When we talk about choices, the unborn child has
:03:23. > :03:31.no choice. That is what we're talking about tonight, the unborn
:03:31. > :03:35.child, fully developed. This is a model of a baby of 10 weeks. Marie
:03:35. > :03:38.Stopes International is well known for performing illegal abortions.
:03:38. > :03:42.There has been thrown out of different countries and have
:03:42. > :03:49.boasted about going into countries where abortion is illegal and
:03:49. > :03:54.performing illegal abortions. not do that. I had worked for Marie
:03:54. > :03:58.Stopes for a number of years. What we're talking about is offering
:03:58. > :04:03.choice and as servers that men and women want. If we did not believe
:04:03. > :04:10.it was needed then we would not have come here. We spent two years
:04:10. > :04:15.coming back and forth talking to people. Four people have called me
:04:15. > :04:19.this week saying that they want to help and the servers is really
:04:19. > :04:25.needed. If they are working within the law, do you still have a
:04:25. > :04:31.problem with them coming here? Absolutely. Abortion is illegal in
:04:31. > :04:35.Northern Ireland. Our hospitals already provide clinical treatment.
:04:35. > :04:38.Many women died because of abortions. And recently one of your
:04:38. > :04:45.doctor's was struck off because a woman died as a result of an
:04:45. > :04:49.abortion. The Department of Health have told the show that abortion is
:04:49. > :04:52.lawful in Northern Ireland when necessary to preserve the life of a
:04:53. > :05:00.woman or word there is a risk of an adverse effect on her physical and
:05:00. > :05:04.mental health which is either long- term or permanent. It is in 20
:05:04. > :05:10.trowels and the health of women is not in danger. We can provide all
:05:10. > :05:15.that medical care. Our doctors are not failing women here. They
:05:15. > :05:20.provide all the treatment they need to safeguard health. But it is a
:05:20. > :05:24.matter of long-term physical or mental health. Those are very rare
:05:24. > :05:30.cases and our own hospitals deal with these cases. But in those rare
:05:30. > :05:35.cases can you not at least support the contention that it is lawful.
:05:35. > :05:39.Two weeks ago I had a number of doctors speaking at Stormont and I
:05:39. > :05:43.attended a medical conference in Dublin and those doctors from all
:05:43. > :05:48.over the world to treat women with problem pregnancies all agreed that
:05:48. > :05:52.there is no medical necessity to destroy the life of an unborn child.
:05:52. > :06:00.Marie Stopes is not interested in the women are babies but interested
:06:00. > :06:06.in making money in killing unborn children. We are a charity. So we
:06:06. > :06:11.do not make a profit. We provide services all over the world. This
:06:11. > :06:16.is not about profit. If we were to set up profitably we would not have
:06:16. > :06:22.come here. This is a charity and the fundamental basis of what we do
:06:22. > :06:27.is to offer choices. We believe, everyone I have spoken to...
:06:27. > :06:32.that choice is already there because women can already a bale of
:06:32. > :06:36.the facilities within the NHS. So you then have the charge against
:06:36. > :06:42.you that you will offer a slightly more of them what is available in
:06:42. > :06:47.the NHS. Or else why it would you come? We're offering a really
:06:47. > :06:51.different service. The other day the opening of the clinic was well
:06:51. > :06:55.publicised. Someone knocked at the door and a couple of very young
:06:55. > :06:59.girls were there for heard that we were offering a service. They had
:06:59. > :07:05.no where to go and they had it desperate story. We know the
:07:05. > :07:09.service is available in the NHS but we think we can provide a different
:07:09. > :07:15.and a better experience for those women where they can come and have
:07:15. > :07:21.choices. Services are already readily available in Northern
:07:21. > :07:25.Ireland. The number travelling to England is actually decreasing.
:07:25. > :07:33.Well 1000 women for year. Up and that has decreased over the past
:07:33. > :07:40.number of years. It has decreased by 36%. According to whom?
:07:40. > :07:44.Department of Health figures. They are dealing with death. God
:07:44. > :07:54.gives life and the only person who can take life his guard, not
:07:54. > :07:57.abortion clinics. Abortion is wrong. In all circumstances? In its
:07:57. > :08:02.circumstances where the life of the mother is not in danger. The police
:08:02. > :08:12.is speaking for the child? The child has the right to live. There
:08:12. > :08:13.
:08:13. > :08:16.are other things you can do, there is adoption. Get Marie Stopes out.
:08:16. > :08:26.Because every Christian will be outside their door of protesting.
:08:26. > :08:33.That is a guarantee. Look forward to seeing you there tomorrow.
:08:33. > :08:39.I respect your opinions and we're never going to agree. I am a mother
:08:39. > :08:43.and have two children. I support people who have different opinions.
:08:43. > :08:50.But what we want to do for the people of Northern Ireland is to
:08:50. > :08:56.offer them choice. The people I have listened to, who contact us
:08:56. > :09:06.and you're desperate for help, they have no way to go. We're not an
:09:06. > :09:06.
:09:06. > :09:10.organisation that is proportion. We have got a fantastic health care
:09:11. > :09:16.programme yet and so why do we need Marie Stopes? You're here to make
:09:16. > :09:23.money. And make us like everybody else. We do not want to be like
:09:23. > :09:26.everybody else. We want people to have the right to live. What about
:09:26. > :09:34.the 1000 women per year who do want that choice and have to go across
:09:34. > :09:38.the water. If they want that choice then they should be counselled to
:09:38. > :09:44.understand that they it is another opinion involved, that of the child.
:09:44. > :09:49.The child could be adopted or fostered. In all circumstances?
:09:49. > :09:54.all circumstances. You have to protect life.
:09:54. > :10:00.Tell us your story. I am a mother of four children. A
:10:00. > :10:07.long time ago when I was in my very early twenties and again in my mid-
:10:07. > :10:11.twenties I had to terminations. I had one on the NHS without any
:10:11. > :10:17.counselling or help. It was a dramatic decision. It is a
:10:17. > :10:25.traumatic decision for any woman. The second time I went to Marie
:10:25. > :10:30.Stopes and had a lot of counselling. It is not the men sitting here
:10:30. > :10:35.talking about why they did not support the women... I know you
:10:35. > :10:39.have a personal story. I am aware that the fathers of those children
:10:39. > :10:43.are not here to defend themselves so let us talk about you and not
:10:43. > :10:48.brought any inference about the fathers. Well I received a very
:10:48. > :10:52.good counselling. The councillor said I think you're undecided and
:10:52. > :10:56.would you like to go away and think about it. At that time I had no
:10:56. > :11:02.concept that I could actually bring those children into the world and
:11:02. > :11:05.be a good mother. I made that decision, which is a very difficult
:11:06. > :11:10.decision of four women to make. It is also difficult to talk about it
:11:10. > :11:15.publicly because there is a tremendous amount of shame about it.
:11:15. > :11:20.How did you feel afterwards? the always feel unhappy and upset.
:11:20. > :11:28.It is a very difficult thing to do. Especially as I went on to have
:11:28. > :11:33.four more children. And Dean have regrets some days? I do not. I
:11:33. > :11:42.could not have done it at that time. I believe I have no way to bring
:11:42. > :11:46.those children up. How could you take that right away from her?
:11:46. > :11:51.believe that women deserve better than abortion. I believe we have
:11:51. > :11:57.failed women if we do not support them through a crisis pregnancy. We
:11:57. > :12:03.want to eliminate the crisis, not a board that child. Yesterday a young
:12:03. > :12:09.girl from the south of Carland contacted me, very similar. She
:12:09. > :12:14.went to Marie Stopes three weeks ago... You can tell that story
:12:14. > :12:24.later. But can you not at least listen to this lady and engage with
:12:24. > :12:54.
:12:54. > :13:04.I have had an abortion as well, at 18. Just the lady just behind. Get
:13:04. > :13:08.
:13:08. > :13:14.ahead. I have been working in abortion recovery. Abortion does
:13:14. > :13:18.affect the men as well. You talk about the long-term lasting effects.
:13:18. > :13:25.There are long-term lasting -- lasting effects after abortion.
:13:25. > :13:31.There are thousands of women. I had an abortion when I was 18 and
:13:31. > :13:34.struggled with it for ten years. Did not realise why. I turned to
:13:34. > :13:41.alcohol and everything for that. It hit me when I had my first
:13:41. > :13:46.pregnancy, which was a miscarriage, and my first living daughter,
:13:46. > :13:51.reading the antenatal books I've realised that six weeks it had a
:13:51. > :13:57.heart beat, ten weeks fully formed. This is not what I was told when I
:13:57. > :14:07.had an abortion. I have been helping women voluntarily for 20
:14:07. > :14:09.
:14:09. > :14:15.years. Let me speak to Geoffrey from the DUP. Are you against
:14:15. > :14:19.abortion in all cases, no matter what? I support the law as it
:14:19. > :14:25.stands in Northern Ireland. It is very clear. I do not see any reason
:14:25. > :14:30.why it needs to change. I see no reason for Marie Stopes to be in
:14:30. > :14:35.Northern Ireland. There is no service Marie Stopes provides that
:14:35. > :14:43.is not already provided on the NHS. So you think the law is crystal
:14:43. > :14:50.clear? Why does your own colleague call it a legal minefield?
:14:50. > :14:53.I am not sure that that is the case. He is referring to guidelines
:14:53. > :14:57.aren't pregnancy in Northern Ireland and there have been legal
:14:57. > :15:02.challenges. There is a traditional review at the moment in the High
:15:02. > :15:11.Court. Do you know how long Northern Ireland has been waiting
:15:11. > :15:17.for those guidelines? Since 2004. Eight years. Yes, and if you want
:15:17. > :15:21.my opinion, the law is absolutely clear on this. It was not my party
:15:21. > :15:25.or any political party, and bear in mind all of the military -- main
:15:25. > :15:33.political parties at Stormont are of the same view on this. The law
:15:33. > :15:37.does not need to change. We did not seek clarification. It was the so-
:15:37. > :15:41.called pro-choice organisations that went to the court and said, we
:15:41. > :15:46.need guidance on what it means to terminate a pregnancy in Northern
:15:46. > :15:49.Ireland. I do not believe we need that because the law is clear.
:15:49. > :15:59.have Bernie's Nick saying it is illegal in Northern Ireland and
:15:59. > :16:04.Marie Stopes saying in some senses it is legal. How clear is that?
:16:04. > :16:10.Ernie is correct. There are only very narrow circumstances in
:16:10. > :16:13.Northern Ireland where abortion is allowed. As are the Department of
:16:13. > :16:17.Health, when they have said, quote Kohlert when it is necessary to
:16:17. > :16:23.preserve the life of the woman or there is a risk of real or serious
:16:23. > :16:27.adverse effect on her physical or mental health, long term or
:16:27. > :16:32.permanent. OK? That is what the Department of Health is saying. So
:16:32. > :16:38.is a woman is raped, Jeffrey Donaldson, can she have an abortion
:16:38. > :16:43.lawfully? In Northern Ireland? the clinician, the doctor treating
:16:43. > :16:47.that Bormann, determines that there is a risk to her life or to her
:16:47. > :16:51.long-term mental and physical well- being in those circumstances, a
:16:51. > :16:58.woman who has been raped can have an abortion in Northern Ireland.
:16:58. > :17:01.That is very clear. Do you accept that his career? I know if a
:17:01. > :17:07.woman's life is in danger all medical treatment will be given to
:17:07. > :17:12.her and if she has a psychological problem I do believe psychiatric
:17:12. > :17:18.care is vitally important. I have been involved... But the question
:17:18. > :17:24.is this. Do you a Greek that if a lady has been raped that abortion
:17:24. > :17:29.is an option? -- do you agree? disagree with abortion but I agree
:17:29. > :17:34.with medical treatment. The law here is very clear. Abortion is
:17:34. > :17:38.legal but what is illegal his medical treatment. Abortion is
:17:38. > :17:41.illegal if a Boorman has been raped. I am trying to give you an
:17:41. > :17:48.opportunity for me to be very precise about what you think. Do
:17:48. > :17:52.you think abortion is legal will be illegal if a lady has been raped?
:17:52. > :17:58.have explained myself. Abortion is illegal. Medical treatment is
:17:58. > :18:04.available. A You have the biggest party in Northern Ireland saying it
:18:04. > :18:10.is lawful. We are talking about language here. If a mother's life
:18:10. > :18:14.is in danger she will retrieve -- receive that treatment. Marie
:18:14. > :18:23.Stopes are not interested in health but in destroying an unborn child.
:18:23. > :18:26.Jeffrey Donaldson, why don't we have the guidelines waiting from
:18:26. > :18:31.2004, devolution in Northern Ireland for many, many years now,
:18:32. > :18:36.the guidelines still are not published. Your Health Minister
:18:36. > :18:42.saying it is a legal minefield. It might be, it might be difficult to
:18:42. > :18:47.publish them, but publish them. I remind you they were published,
:18:47. > :18:51.and they went out to consultation and because of the pub --
:18:51. > :18:55.consultation responses that came back, the guidelines were revised.
:18:55. > :18:59.They were published in draft. there was a consultation and
:18:59. > :19:02.because of the responses that came back there were revisions made to
:19:02. > :19:06.the guidelines. There is not political agreement at the moment
:19:06. > :19:13.at Stormont on the exact nature of those guidelines. I understand it
:19:13. > :19:17.is not a black-and-white issue. How long have we been waiting for law
:19:17. > :19:23.in Northern Ireland around this for the guidelines to, Surrey, around
:19:23. > :19:26.this in Northern Ireland? How many years? The guidelines. The law. I
:19:26. > :19:29.know you are trying to take me down the cul-de-sac about the guidelines
:19:29. > :19:33.but I am going to keep concentrating on the law because it
:19:33. > :19:37.is the law that matters. The law is very clear. The law states the
:19:37. > :19:42.circumstances in which an abortion can occur in Northern Ireland. The
:19:43. > :19:47.guidelines do not change the law, Stephen. Not one iota. All they do
:19:47. > :19:52.is provide guidance to clinical practitioners who may be involved
:19:52. > :19:58.in a decision about whether or not an abortion should take place under
:19:58. > :20:02.the law. I knew saying there is no need for the guidelines? I have
:20:02. > :20:04.said that earlier in the programme. We do not meet the guidelines, but
:20:05. > :20:11.the Family Planning Association and other so-called breakthroughs
:20:11. > :20:16.groups went to the High Court, demanded guidance and the high
:20:16. > :20:25.court ruled there should be guidelines. I take a different view.
:20:25. > :20:30.Yes, but you are a Democrat. We have a guest from the Royal College
:20:30. > :20:34.of midwives. You are on the advisory panel of Marie Stopes.
:20:34. > :20:39.Let's just get that out there straight away. A need for
:20:39. > :20:42.guidelines, the DUP say no need. think if you spoke to the 1,500
:20:43. > :20:49.midwives in Northern Ireland many of them would say guidelines would
:20:49. > :20:53.be extremely helpful and indeed necessary. Why is that?
:20:53. > :20:59.guidelines do two things, they provide a very clear exposition of
:20:59. > :21:04.the law and the law is not clear. Not everybody... It is extremely
:21:04. > :21:08.clear. My 12-year-old could understand the law. Can I finish?
:21:08. > :21:12.There are a number of people in Northern Ireland, including nurses
:21:12. > :21:16.and midwives working in this difficult area who are unclear
:21:16. > :21:22.about the law. So the first part of the guidelines are an exposition of
:21:22. > :21:26.the law to make it clear. Geoffrey is right in his summary of the law.
:21:26. > :21:29.The second part of the guidelines are standards and guidance for good
:21:29. > :21:33.practice, things that say that a woman should be seen by two
:21:33. > :21:39.different doctors. That she should be given written and verbal
:21:39. > :21:44.information. That she should sign a consent form. I am sorry, no. This
:21:44. > :21:48.is extraordinary. You reckon they should be two doctors. The
:21:48. > :21:54.Department of Health have told us under Northern Ireland law the
:21:54. > :21:59.consent of only one doctor is required. I say to if you are
:21:59. > :22:03.looking at guidelines for good practice. It covers good practice
:22:03. > :22:09.in the workplace. The to be fair, it does say good practice requires
:22:09. > :22:13.two. I am not sure many people in Northern Ireland know that staff in
:22:13. > :22:19.the health service have no statutory right in Northern Ireland
:22:19. > :22:27.to opt out of caring for women having an abortion. The guy it with
:22:27. > :22:36.your hand up. Is this conversation about the law or religious belief?
:22:36. > :22:42.That laws -- APPLAUSE I was raped when I was 13.
:22:42. > :22:46.I did not know I was pregnant. My parents quite quickly arranged for
:22:46. > :22:53.me to have an abortion with the help of a clergyman, and I was
:22:53. > :23:00.taken off to Liverpool to a Marie Stopes clinic, 42 years ago.
:23:00. > :23:07.what age? 13. I can say that I do not think abortion is the answer. I
:23:07. > :23:12.think that I was persecuted in having the abortion. I got over the
:23:12. > :23:17.rape, I got over the trip to Liverpool did not mean anything to
:23:17. > :23:22.me, but I suffered for 37 years, until I went through abortion
:23:22. > :23:26.recovery. Suffered in what way? was a very sad and lonely and
:23:26. > :23:31.thought about my baby all the time. I asked my GP for help and he sent
:23:31. > :23:36.me off to a national health psychologist and I spoke to them
:23:36. > :23:40.about my inability to be able to get over the grief of others
:23:40. > :23:44.subsequent deaths in the family like my granny and a colleague and
:23:44. > :23:48.other people who had died. I could not get over that. I could not seem
:23:48. > :23:56.to step over that Mark and grieve properly and I did not make the
:23:57. > :24:01.equation between my grief of losing my child's, and I called him
:24:01. > :24:06.Michael when I went through my abortion recovery, just three years
:24:06. > :24:12.ago, but for 37 years I've really did suffer and it let me down many
:24:12. > :24:15.roads... Let me let Tracey respond. First of all, that is an incredible
:24:15. > :24:25.story and I think you have been amazingly brave to share that with
:24:25. > :24:27.
:24:27. > :24:32.My heart goes out to you and that is why we want to do what we want
:24:32. > :24:36.to do. That is why on the first day that people knew we were in Belfast,
:24:36. > :24:39.two very young girls came to the doorstep asking for help. What I
:24:39. > :24:43.think will be successful is that when we have offered a lot more
:24:43. > :24:47.family planning, a lot more contraception, and those women have
:24:47. > :24:50.come and had counselling and support and -- in a very non-
:24:50. > :25:00.judgmental way, they have not been forced into making those decisions
:25:00. > :25:03.
:25:03. > :25:08.by others... I received my abortion recovery... We have free
:25:08. > :25:14.counselling. Can I say thank you for telling a story tonight. At the
:25:14. > :25:19.heart of this, for and against the debate, there are women with very
:25:19. > :25:24.personal stories. Adele has had two abortions. The journey she has
:25:24. > :25:30.travelled on on this issue may just surprise you. Abortion is a very
:25:30. > :25:34.personal but there are always different views. Listen to have.
:25:34. > :25:37.At 25 I had an unplanned pregnancy. I have just come out of a
:25:37. > :25:43.relationship and I panicked and felt like I had a problem I needed
:25:43. > :25:49.to fix. I was in Northern Ireland and just went to the Yellow Pages,
:25:49. > :25:54.found Marie Stopes genic and made arrangements as fast as I could do
:25:54. > :25:59.go to London. I remember when I went to the Marie Stopes clinic
:25:59. > :26:04.being quite angry with the protesters but since then, I feel
:26:04. > :26:10.very differently now and I wished that I had listened to them. I did
:26:10. > :26:14.sink into a kind of depression and had a profound sense of loss. Five
:26:14. > :26:20.years later, I became pregnant and my partner did not want me to have
:26:20. > :26:25.the baby. I had my third pregnancy when others 33 and it was only
:26:25. > :26:29.because I had the support of a close family member who gave me the
:26:29. > :26:32.support and encourage me that I could have the baby that stopped me
:26:33. > :26:36.from having a third abortion and I am so thankful to them because my
:26:36. > :26:41.daughter has been the best thing that has ever happened to me in my
:26:42. > :26:46.life. I can only talk freely about it because I have been through a
:26:46. > :26:49.recovery programme. Some women find themselves in very difficult
:26:49. > :26:53.circumstances but I really truly believe that an abortion is going
:26:53. > :26:58.to damage them. I know not just from my experience but from talking
:26:58. > :27:05.to other women who have also suffered from a portion that it is
:27:05. > :27:15.not an answer. It is important for women who have lived it to have a
:27:15. > :27:23.
:27:24. > :27:31.It you want to comment on that story you can get in touch. Suzanne
:27:31. > :27:37.Lee, you also have a story. I'm now 23 and when I was 22 I find
:27:37. > :27:44.out I was pregnant. I am a student and I normally live in Dublin. When
:27:44. > :27:49.I found out I was pregnant I have quite severe mental health issues.
:27:49. > :27:53.I grew up in a household where my mother did not particularly want me.
:27:53. > :27:59.So I am as determined that when I had a child then that child was
:27:59. > :28:04.going to be wanted and would have the best possible life. When I got
:28:04. > :28:10.pregnant I could not give the child that life. So because abortion is
:28:10. > :28:17.illegal in Ireland I ordered some pills from the internet. I did not
:28:17. > :28:21.go to a clinic. I had to get those pills delivered to the Lords, you
:28:21. > :28:31.cannot get them delivered to the south because Customs would seize
:28:31. > :28:32.
:28:32. > :28:37.them. -- to the north. One they arrived, and I waited two days to
:28:37. > :28:42.take them because it is quite an ordeal to go through. You take two
:28:42. > :28:49.different sets of pills. The first date was fine, I felt normal. The
:28:49. > :28:55.second day I had severe cramping and a lot of beating. I was
:28:55. > :29:01.pleading for four weeks. But because I terminated my pregnancy
:29:01. > :29:06.at six weeks it was nothing worse than a very bad period. To say that
:29:06. > :29:13.it was a Ambon child when all I did was to be lead. Do you think you
:29:13. > :29:16.did the right thing? I think so. It disgusts me when I see people in
:29:16. > :29:25.front of me who believe that I should spend my life in prison
:29:25. > :29:30.because of what I did. That is the law from 1861.
:29:30. > :29:34.I do feel really sorry for you that you had to go through that for
:29:35. > :29:39.yourself and there was no one to support you. That is what the pro-
:29:39. > :29:45.life movement is about. We believe you deserve better. You're not
:29:45. > :29:50.dealing with this very well. You do not think she had the right to
:29:50. > :29:56.choose for result? We're talking about another life and the need to
:29:56. > :30:03.provide better services. Such as Marie Stopes are doing. Well I can
:30:03. > :30:09.only say that we do care for people like you. Who have had an abortion.
:30:09. > :30:15.We care for you now. We have listened to women who have had
:30:15. > :30:23.abortions. Sometimes that Post abortion depression does not leave
:30:23. > :30:28.them. Why are you so angry? I have listened to people calling me a
:30:28. > :30:36.murderer. I have been called the Devil's child by people in your so-
:30:36. > :30:42.called Movement. I only know people who care generally for women. And
:30:42. > :30:47.they support that every day. We support women financially. There is
:30:47. > :30:56.a great movement supporting women. Father Tim Bartlett, thank you for
:30:56. > :31:00.coming in. What would you say to Suzanne tonight? I think we have to
:31:00. > :31:06.accept as a society that we have a duty of care to everyone who finds
:31:06. > :31:09.themselves in this predicament. Nobody is suggesting it is an easy
:31:09. > :31:15.situation or an easy decision. We have to respond to that with
:31:15. > :31:21.compassion. However there is also another issue and that is that
:31:21. > :31:25.society also has an interest and a responsibility to protect all the
:31:25. > :31:30.life. There's no more fundamental right down the right to life. So
:31:30. > :31:35.the Challenge is how do we provide the best possible care. And I think
:31:35. > :31:40.we have failed women who find themselves in that situation. I ask
:31:40. > :31:46.if we cannot do better in the 21st century in terms of psychiatric
:31:46. > :31:51.care and counselling. Do you support of the law as it currently
:31:51. > :31:56.stands or would you make it even tougher? It is a very simple
:31:56. > :32:02.principle. We have to defend and uphold the fundamental principle of
:32:02. > :32:08.the right to life, no matter what. Can I bring in some real examples.
:32:08. > :32:12.If the baby was going to be born and it was clear, and these are
:32:12. > :32:16.isolated incidents, but it was clear that the baby would not have
:32:16. > :32:21.a brain, does that child, she insists that the mother would
:32:21. > :32:26.deliver that child it is against her which? Those kind of situations
:32:26. > :32:33.are very complex medical situations. And our doctors are trained to
:32:33. > :32:38.respond appropriately. Treating each of the two people as
:32:38. > :32:42.individual patients. As well as having choices we also have
:32:42. > :32:51.responsibilities. That is one we have laws to defend fundamental
:32:51. > :32:58.values. And those enable us to make hard decisions. You asked about
:32:58. > :33:01.guidelines, the more fundamental concern is how can it private
:33:01. > :33:07.medical institution establish itself in a Nordic Carland without
:33:07. > :33:12.any regulation? I hope that that situation is a dressed very quickly.
:33:12. > :33:19.And the only course we have is for the police to get involved and
:33:19. > :33:24.monitor the situation. I just wondered what your opinion would be
:33:24. > :33:32.on under-aged people coming in for an abortion? Do you mean -- you
:33:32. > :33:38.need parental consent? The service that we are offering is
:33:38. > :33:43.for women aged over 16. In order to access the service we need to have
:33:43. > :33:47.proof of identity. But what we want is to be there to help these people
:33:48. > :33:53.so it that we cannot provide that service, and we are clear about the
:33:53. > :34:01.law, then we can... The question is if there under-aged, do they need
:34:01. > :34:07.parental consent in your clinic at all times? May well not treat
:34:07. > :34:14.anyone under the age of parental consent. They need to be 16 or over.
:34:14. > :34:22.You have done that in other countries. You have moved in under
:34:22. > :34:31.the guise of family planning and then you go on to break the law.
:34:31. > :34:34.You deny breaking the law. One second. I'm glad you have raised
:34:34. > :34:40.that because I had been asked that a lot and I want to be clearer
:34:40. > :34:44.about that. The nurses and doctors who are all from your department,
:34:44. > :34:49.they all live and work here, we're really cure but the law and will
:34:49. > :34:59.not do anything in terms of breaking the law. Ladies and
:34:59. > :35:02.
:35:02. > :35:06.gentlemen we have to leave it there. Please thank all my guests.
:35:06. > :35:09.You can give your opinion on our social media sites. Still to come
:35:09. > :35:14.on the programme. Edwina Currie takes on the unions planning
:35:14. > :35:16.another march against government cuts.
:35:16. > :35:19.Now, on Christmas Day 2010 the body of Joanna Yeates was found,
:35:19. > :35:24.partially hidden by snow, at the edge of a quarry three miles from
:35:24. > :35:31.her Bristol flat. The discovery concluded an eight day police
:35:31. > :35:37.search. In March 2011, Joanna's neighbour Vincent Tabak admitted to
:35:37. > :35:39.her murder and was subsequently sentenced to life imprisonment.
:35:39. > :35:44.But one man whose face will forever be synonymous with the case is
:35:44. > :35:46.Joanna's landlord Christopher Jefferies. He endured trial by
:35:46. > :35:50.media, and was dubbed "weird", "strange", "creepy", and a "peeping
:35:50. > :35:52.Tom" after being arrested during the investigation. Despite being
:35:52. > :36:02.completely vindicated, Christopher Jefferies still bears the scars of
:36:02. > :36:10.
:36:10. > :36:16.that terrible ordeal. Ladies and What is it like to hear those
:36:16. > :36:21.descriptions about you, completely untrue? Completely untrue. And
:36:21. > :36:26.certainly when I first had to read these stories in newspapers, it
:36:26. > :36:30.came as the most tremendous shock. In fact the day that I did read
:36:30. > :36:36.them for the first time I was extremely glad that I was not going
:36:36. > :36:40.to be alone that evening. That I had already arranged to go out to
:36:40. > :36:46.dinner with some friends because it had such a shattering and
:36:46. > :36:53.terrifying effect. Would it be beneficial perhaps if we started
:36:53. > :36:59.when he got that knock on the door from the police. It was 7:01AM
:36:59. > :37:03.morning, entirely out of the blue. I thought that perhaps and
:37:03. > :37:09.neighbour had been taken ill. So I went and opened the door and there
:37:09. > :37:15.were a couple of policemen saying, we need your help, we are arresting
:37:15. > :37:20.you on suspicion of the murder of Joanna Yeates. Completely out of
:37:20. > :37:25.the blue. What happens to your mind? He'd go completely numb. You
:37:25. > :37:29.cannot even think of anything at all. You're just concentrating on
:37:29. > :37:35.what is happening at that particular moment. You cannot even
:37:35. > :37:39.imagine what might happen in the next five minutes. And then you're
:37:39. > :37:45.escorted off to the police station. What I've learnt from your story,
:37:45. > :37:49.which is intriguing, whilst the press are hammering you, you do not
:37:49. > :37:53.know. Your lawyer is not telling you. For the three days that I was
:37:53. > :37:58.in custody I had no idea that anyone was in the slightest bit
:37:58. > :38:03.interested in what was happening to me. And when I was released from
:38:03. > :38:07.custody and went to stay with friends, they also took a degree
:38:07. > :38:11.protected me from knowledge of what had been in the newspapers. They
:38:11. > :38:15.said, there are all kinds of terrible things that have been
:38:16. > :38:24.mentioned, you do not want to know at the moment after what you have
:38:24. > :38:28.just been through. So it was really only when the lawyers said, we want
:38:28. > :38:36.you to read some of these stories, so we can make absolutely certain
:38:36. > :38:43.that there is not an iota of truce. Let us just remind ourselves, what
:38:43. > :38:52.the press was saying about you. That was in the Sun newspaper. The
:38:52. > :38:59.strange Mr Jefferies. Hare apparently coverage for the purpose.
:38:59. > :39:06.Was your hair that colour? Once I did use an Henan shampoo which gave
:39:06. > :39:11.my hair and very slight blue tint. But nothing remotely such as
:39:11. > :39:17.appeared in the Sun newspaper in that photograph. You are smiling
:39:17. > :39:26.now, but to and see that, how do you feel about the press and about
:39:26. > :39:29.that particular headline? It is totally irresponsible and totally
:39:29. > :39:36.self destructive of your self- esteem when you see that for the
:39:36. > :39:45.first time. Of course there were many newspapers. The Daily Mirror,
:39:45. > :39:50.let us have a look at what they printed. Suspect is a peeping Tom.
:39:50. > :39:57.Apparently they got hold of rumours that I was supposed to spy on
:39:57. > :40:04.tenants. Again it something which had not an iota of truth in it. And
:40:04. > :40:10.they build up this weird picture of someone who was possibly as serial
:40:10. > :40:16.murderer because they had been an unsolved murder 30 years before
:40:16. > :40:20.this particular merger happen. your main emotion one of anger, for
:40:20. > :40:27.fear? After the numbers had worn off I started to feel extremely
:40:27. > :40:32.angry that I had been arrested. And then after I had been released, I
:40:32. > :40:38.started to feel extremely angry about the destruction of my
:40:38. > :40:42.personality that had taken place. While I have been in custody. I
:40:42. > :40:48.described it as having been like a kind of rape because that is how it
:40:48. > :40:52.felt at that time. He also talk vividly about when you're brought
:40:52. > :40:58.into the police station, the fact that they take away all your
:40:58. > :41:03.possessions. It feels as if you're being stripped absolutely fair. You
:41:03. > :41:09.no longer know very dull are. Because nothing that has been
:41:09. > :41:14.connected with your identity is there any longer. You have put in a
:41:14. > :41:18.kind of prison suit and there you are just absolutely naked and
:41:19. > :41:23.defenceless and quite vulnerable. What kind of questions where they
:41:23. > :41:31.asking you know when you work in their? They just went over and over
:41:31. > :41:38.again... Is it aggressive questioning? It is extremely long.
:41:38. > :41:44.The first day, the questioning went on significantly after midnight.
:41:44. > :41:48.Partly because I insisted that they carried on, because I did not want
:41:48. > :41:53.to have to go through more of it the following day. Although I did
:41:53. > :42:00.have to go through it the following day. They just went over and over
:42:00. > :42:08.Mike movements. At the key times that this poor girl had disappeared.
:42:08. > :42:14.And then you are released, and a guests -- I guess you're having to
:42:14. > :42:19.face the reality, totally unfair, of no smoke without fire. That is
:42:20. > :42:25.what one feels, yes. I do not really know -- how one would have
:42:25. > :42:28.coped if I had not had the support of friends. I had to stay with
:42:28. > :42:33.friends for three months after I was released from custody because I
:42:33. > :42:37.could not go back to my own flat. Partly because the police had
:42:37. > :42:43.removed all my clothing and some other possessions so all that I had
:42:43. > :42:50.was what I stood up in. And of course the media were desperate to
:42:50. > :43:00.get hold of me and interview me as soon as I was released. So I had to
:43:00. > :43:08.
:43:08. > :43:12.lead a kind of cloak-and-dagger I am intrigued to know if there
:43:12. > :43:16.were any close friends who abandoned you at that stage. There
:43:16. > :43:20.were no close friends who abandoned me but it is true that when
:43:20. > :43:26.something like that happens you know who your friends are and you
:43:26. > :43:32.are aware that there are one or two people that you thought were
:43:33. > :43:36.friends who because you have been portrayed in very unflattering
:43:36. > :43:40.light state conveniently in the background. When you suffer a
:43:40. > :43:46.trauma like that, I reckon that is what that is, a major Dromore in
:43:46. > :43:51.your life, if -- former in your life, do you ever fully recover and
:43:51. > :43:54.get back to the person you were? You are certainly never the same
:43:54. > :44:00.person again simply because of what has happened, and the memory of
:44:00. > :44:05.what has happened. So how can you still feel it now? How are you
:44:05. > :44:10.different, psychologically? suppose because I am always aware
:44:10. > :44:18.at the back of my mind there may still be people out there who I
:44:18. > :44:22.come across who think, oh yes, there is that the weird man who was
:44:22. > :44:26.accused of murdering one of his tenants. There is probably
:44:26. > :44:31.something a bit fishy about him, perhaps we do not want to have
:44:31. > :44:36.anything to do with him. This is probably an unfair question that I
:44:36. > :44:42.will ask it. You have changed your appearance. Is that you are giving
:44:42. > :44:46.in? No. You were happy looking like that until they suggested that was
:44:47. > :44:51.the look of a weird man. friends I went to stay with first
:44:51. > :44:56.after I was released from custody said, you have got to change your
:44:56. > :45:01.appearance because as soon as you go out of the stores, everybody is
:45:01. > :45:05.going to recognise you. Everybody is going to be chasing after you.
:45:05. > :45:10.Somebody is going to ring up the media, the press are going to be
:45:11. > :45:16.here. It is for your own protection. What is your view, then, on the
:45:17. > :45:23.press? Your gut instinct view. Of these two discussed widely with
:45:23. > :45:27.Leveson. I am part of the press. Something has certainly got to
:45:27. > :45:34.change and I hope and expect that Lord Justice Leveson is going to
:45:34. > :45:40.come out with some proposals for independent surveillance of what
:45:40. > :45:45.the press is doing, because certainly self-regulation has just
:45:45. > :45:49.not worked over the past decades. The thing is, you got through it,
:45:49. > :45:55.and the really scary thing is some people might not have. I entirely
:45:55. > :46:00.agree. A relative has actually said to me that she knows somebody who
:46:00. > :46:06.almost certainly would have been destroyed if they have had to go
:46:06. > :46:10.through that experience. Did you ever get close? Did you ever
:46:10. > :46:15.contemplate... I think simply because I had to remain on police
:46:15. > :46:20.bail for such a long time, nine weeks after I was released from
:46:20. > :46:26.custody, and so I was still technically a suspect, I got a very,
:46:26. > :46:31.very low indeed during that period. I do not think I have ever felt
:46:31. > :46:35.quite so vulnerable and quite so depressed. You are a very strong
:46:35. > :46:44.man. Thank you for coming to Northern Ireland to tell a story.
:46:44. > :46:48.Thank you. -- to tell your story. For let's get a quick reminder of
:46:48. > :46:58.all the subjects we are talking about tonight, how you can get in
:46:58. > :47:20.
:47:20. > :47:26.Sarah in Belfast on Twitter says it is a disgrace the media are allowed
:47:26. > :47:31.to destroy any man's life. Gary says this story is a warning to
:47:31. > :47:39.anyone who says the tab -- believes the tabloids. The press have a lot
:47:39. > :47:43.to answer for, says Michael. Next up, trade union chiefs are calling
:47:43. > :47:46.for people to take to the streets of Belfast this Saturday to
:47:47. > :47:50.register their disgust at Government cuts, with similar
:47:50. > :47:58.marches planned for London and Glasgow, the unions claimed the
:47:58. > :48:07.cuts are hurting people and damaging the economy. Here is
:48:07. > :48:11.Bumper Graham from NIPSA and the former MP Edwina Currie. Edwina
:48:11. > :48:19.Currie, these cuts, people have no small Brickell room. They have no
:48:20. > :48:25.more room to actually cope with any more money buying -- being taken
:48:25. > :48:30.out of their lives. We are talking on a day when it has been announced
:48:30. > :48:35.that unemployment is down in the country as a whole. It is up in
:48:35. > :48:39.Northern Ireland. We have more people in work now. 71 % of the
:48:39. > :48:44.population. Things are beginning to move. Inflation has come down as
:48:44. > :48:50.well. Very good news. I know that people are going to march on Sunday
:48:50. > :48:56.and that they are sincere and genuine. Saturday. Sat today.
:48:56. > :49:01.you seriously going to fly into Northern Ireland and talk to us
:49:01. > :49:05.about the good employment figures across the water? The problem in
:49:05. > :49:11.Northern Ireland is that you are much too dependent on the public
:49:12. > :49:15.purse, and taxpayers' money, and the problem is that that has
:49:15. > :49:22.stifled the natural competitiveness, the natural entrepreneurs we are
:49:22. > :49:27.seeing in other places. CHANTING. Whoever is shouting, week
:49:27. > :49:33.cannot see you and we cannot hear you say if you put your hand up, we
:49:33. > :49:43.will come to you in a second. are not going to have marches...
:49:43. > :49:53.Let's have the debate. Let's just stop. Being abused...
:49:53. > :50:10.
:50:10. > :50:15.What we have... What we have... cannot hear you. One second. There
:50:15. > :50:19.is one choice. If you sit down, you can stay. If you do not sit down
:50:19. > :50:24.immediately you are out of the studio. What about the 10
:50:25. > :50:34.suicides...! Fine. I would like you to leave the studio for just so
:50:35. > :50:40.
:50:40. > :50:43.that these people who have come It is a real pity that hundreds of
:50:43. > :50:48.people coming here to actually have a debate and you have three people
:50:48. > :50:54.who think they can take over the studio. We are not going to do it.
:50:54. > :51:00.We are going to continue this debate Right Here Right Now.
:51:00. > :51:07.real chance to protest is on Saturday. That chance will be shown
:51:07. > :51:11.by hundreds of thousands of workers, the unemployed, the sick, the poor,
:51:11. > :51:17.all those being attacked by the Conservative Party and their allies
:51:17. > :51:22.in the Liberal Party. The IMF last week said they had got it wrong.
:51:22. > :51:27.The austerity was doing more damage to the economy. If the IMF has said
:51:27. > :51:31.they have got it wrong, surely the British Government can wake up and
:51:31. > :51:35.its Malby coffee. I do not mean the Starbucks coffee to give more money
:51:35. > :51:40.to the tax avoiders. You are getting change in Northern Ireland
:51:40. > :51:44.already. In the United Kingdom as a whole there are about 3 million
:51:44. > :51:49.registered companies and that number is going up at -- all the
:51:49. > :51:54.time. In Northern Ireland you have about 40,000. You are too depended
:51:54. > :51:58.on the state and public money but it is rising. East you compare the
:51:58. > :52:02.number of businesses in Northern Ireland with this time last year it
:52:03. > :52:07.is 2,500 more now than it was then. In the month of September alone,
:52:07. > :52:11.over 200 new businesses were registered in Northern Ireland. BT
:52:11. > :52:15.is actually happening. Please do not march. That is the worst
:52:15. > :52:22.possible image you can give. That is a message you are going to give
:52:22. > :52:26.to inward investment. We will march with dignity. They will not come
:52:26. > :52:33.here if you keep marching. We will march with pride and dignity on
:52:33. > :52:42.Saturday to show that there is... Have his order at the people...
:52:42. > :52:46.we believe the private sector... How? You do not do that white
:52:46. > :52:50.culling in public sector. You are taking money out of the economy
:52:50. > :52:55.which means people are not spending money in the shops. That is why our
:52:55. > :52:59.stores are closing, because there is no disposable income. By taking
:52:59. > :53:03.public servants out of their work, paying them less, you close the
:53:03. > :53:09.economy down. I am determined that we continue the show as normal
:53:09. > :53:19.tonight. There is a lady here. would just like to say... Do not
:53:19. > :53:19.
:53:19. > :53:26.stand up and start screaming at me! No, well, it depends! I would like
:53:26. > :53:32.to say I agree with these gentlemen up here. You have Edwina Currie
:53:32. > :53:39.coming from London. I do not live in London. You are serving their.
:53:39. > :53:43.cannot. You are actually sitting there and you are giving figures.
:53:43. > :53:47.In Northern Ireland there is one in five people in poverty. That has
:53:47. > :53:53.grown with the recession. This austerity measures, once they come
:53:53. > :53:58.in, it makes no difference... It will not make one iota of
:53:58. > :54:03.difference. They have made their mind up. Why aren't using Northern
:54:03. > :54:07.Ireland should do? The way I look at it, personally, we are the
:54:07. > :54:14.people who put them in the decision that they are in now. But you
:54:14. > :54:18.didn't really. We can take them out again. The whole point is, what you
:54:18. > :54:26.can do is you can have expectations from your local politicians here in
:54:26. > :54:31.Northern Ireland. Car and off it. You know exactly -- come off it. Do
:54:31. > :54:41.you know the price of a loaf of bread? She is asking you a question.
:54:41. > :54:52.
:54:52. > :54:56.Do you know how much a loaf of Edwina, will we go for 50-50 also.
:54:56. > :55:06.Does anybody here in this audience actually run a business in Northern
:55:06. > :55:06.
:55:06. > :55:12.Ireland? This young guy that. started my own business with help
:55:12. > :55:18.from the Prince's Trust. I am importing from China. Ladies and
:55:18. > :55:23.gentlemen, he started his own business. Well done. Another young
:55:23. > :55:31.gentleman here. Government cuts Becky bringing in. It is really
:55:31. > :55:35.hard... Just keep talking to me. is extremely hard and it is only
:55:35. > :55:45.through the help of family and friends I have been able to do it.
:55:45. > :55:46.
:55:46. > :55:52.How long ago...? About six months. Is it going OK? Yes. Well done. Can
:55:52. > :55:59.I just say, I am sorry that because those people up there were talking
:55:59. > :56:05.I could not hear -- give you more time to talk about a young citizen
:56:05. > :56:10.in this country who can stand up on his own two feet and do it. Classes
:56:10. > :56:15.for coming in tonight. Why are we even discussing cuts at the moment?
:56:15. > :56:21.When you consider that benefit fraud for example costs the
:56:21. > :56:26.Government �1 billion, in 2010, compare this to �35 billion of tax
:56:26. > :56:32.evasion, tax avoidance. The problem in this country is not those at the
:56:32. > :56:35.bottom who are cheating the system. It is those at the very top. We
:56:35. > :56:40.have a Government who are saying we are all in this together and then
:56:40. > :56:50.goes and cuts the top rate of tax to 45 % and there is planning a
:56:50. > :56:50.
:56:50. > :56:56.further cut to 40%. There is no plan to cut to 40%. 45 % next year.
:56:56. > :57:01.You would know, Stephen. You are probably paying those rates of tax.
:57:01. > :57:05.Do not U-turn on me as well! This Government is a Government of 18
:57:05. > :57:11.out of 29 millionaires in the Cabinet. What do they know about
:57:11. > :57:15.anything? Do you think that our local administration here has any
:57:15. > :57:19.leverage to represent the people of Northern Ireland across the water?
:57:19. > :57:24.The fact of the matter is local administration is not taking their
:57:24. > :57:32.duties seriously because all they are talking about his cutting
:57:32. > :57:35.corporation tax, refusing to bring in, for example, they did not make
:57:35. > :57:40.the tough choice to bring in water charges and they have a cap on
:57:40. > :57:47.rates. They could raise revenue here. You are simply proving what I
:57:47. > :57:55.said that you are too dependent on public money. 11 of bread is 80p,
:57:55. > :57:58.incidentally. Let me say something else. The Conservative Government
:57:58. > :58:02.said that this was about cutting the deficit, and you have just
:58:02. > :58:11.driven a point. This is nothing to do with the deficit. What you are
:58:11. > :58:19.talking about is the public sector. Take Sweden, for example. OK. We
:58:19. > :58:24.have to stop this show now. Can I just say this, when I wake up in
:58:24. > :58:29.the morning and I Emperor this up - - presenting at 9am and I tell you