:00:05. > :00:08.This programme contains strong language coming up on tonight's
:00:09. > :00:18.Nolan Show. We go undercover in Belfast to investigate why legal
:00:19. > :00:22.
:00:22. > :00:29.highs are still being sold in shops Boxing legend Frank Bruno is here
:00:29. > :00:32.to share the highs and lows of his incredible life story. Are our 10-
:00:32. > :00:42.year-olds too young to be criminals? We will be debating a
:00:42. > :01:01.
:01:01. > :01:04.proposed change to the age of Hello there. How are you doing?
:01:04. > :01:08.Welcome along. You are are with BBC One in Northern Ireland. We have a
:01:08. > :01:12.packed studio tonight. Of course, we want you at home to be able to
:01:12. > :01:22.get involved as well. That is why we give you lots of ways to get in
:01:22. > :01:44.
:01:44. > :01:49.Now, our first story tonight, over recent years a major concern for
:01:49. > :01:52.parents has been legal highs, put simply, people able to buy over the
:01:53. > :01:56.counter mind-altering substances. There's a question to ask, why
:01:56. > :02:01.people would do this to themselves since the dangers are so stark?
:02:01. > :02:08.There is another question, should the shops who sell this stuff be
:02:08. > :02:14.able to do so ease -- easily. There is some strong language in this
:02:14. > :02:20.film. For years now callers to the Nolan radio show have been
:02:20. > :02:27.describing how substances known as legal highs have ruined their lives.
:02:27. > :02:31.This drug has destroyed my sister. They mimick the effects of illegal
:02:31. > :02:36.drugs but are available to bylawfully on our high streets.
:02:36. > :02:45.They may look innocent but hardened users of illegal drugs describe
:02:45. > :02:51.them as "powerful and addictive." Coming off heroin was a doddle to
:02:51. > :02:55.coming off legal highs. This man, who we will call Paul, said he
:02:55. > :03:00.suffered from depression and paranoia as a result of using a
:03:00. > :03:03.legal high powder. You don't sleep for days. You don't eat. It's a
:03:03. > :03:09.party drug. People don't know what they are putting into their body.
:03:09. > :03:15.They are ending up in hospital. There is no telling what is in it.
:03:15. > :03:20.So, how are shops selling this stuff lawfully? Currently, under
:03:20. > :03:23.our law system, if someone sells a product that affects how you think
:03:23. > :03:29.and feel they are under heavy scrutiny. They must send those
:03:29. > :03:33.products to be tested over a period of time to be able to see what are
:03:33. > :03:38.the short-term, medium and long- term effects of that substance. If
:03:38. > :03:44.an organisation sells it under the guys of "not for human con sums"
:03:44. > :03:49.they are exempt. They don't have to do testing procedures at all.
:03:49. > :03:53.Manufacturers are labelling their products as bath salts, collector
:03:53. > :03:59.items, plant foods and, shoe deodoriser. Can the shoms claim
:03:59. > :04:09.that is really what they are selling them as? We visited a view
:04:09. > :04:37.
:04:37. > :04:47.So, we did exactly what the sales assistant suggested. One of the
:04:47. > :04:49.
:04:49. > :04:55.first sites you find on Quicksilver altra where someone writes. I can
:04:56. > :05:02.honestly say this is the most pleasant coc-like feeling I've ever
:05:02. > :05:12.had. It doesn't sound like a collector's item to me. He has an
:05:12. > :05:32.
:05:32. > :05:42.interesting explanation for the We asked the owner of the shop, how
:05:42. > :05:48.
:05:48. > :05:52.they justify selling these But, they did not specifically
:05:52. > :06:02.comment on what their sales assistant had told us. In another
:06:02. > :06:15.
:06:15. > :06:20.shop, we asked for Quick Silver, A little bit stronger? That is not
:06:20. > :06:24.something you would usually hear when buying a bath salt or
:06:24. > :06:34.collector's item, as the product is marked. We were told that the
:06:34. > :07:03.
:07:03. > :07:07.We had the substance he sold us tested and found it contained the
:07:07. > :07:11.illegal Class B drug amphetamine. We put this to the owner of the
:07:11. > :07:15.shop. We have heard nothing back. When these products are found to
:07:15. > :07:21.contain banned drugs the police can act. They are frustrated they can't
:07:21. > :07:24.do more to stop the sale of all these substances. If the product in
:07:24. > :07:28.question neither breaches the Misuse of Drugs Act, nor the
:07:28. > :07:33.Medicines Act, it is a difficult area for us. Our hands are rather
:07:33. > :07:38.tide. That is why we need more robust measures. Instead of banning
:07:38. > :07:43.substances, one by one, as we do here, other countries have a more
:07:43. > :07:49.streamlined approach. South of the border, shops selling legal highs
:07:49. > :07:52.have almost disappeared, since it became a crime to sell any psycho
:07:53. > :07:56.active substance that is not licenced as a medicine. We need
:07:56. > :08:00.tighter controls around the sales of these products. If there is no
:08:00. > :08:04.legitimate use and they are suspected of causing harm to humans
:08:04. > :08:08.if consumed, which is the case, we need to impose a blanket ban on
:08:08. > :08:13.them. While a debate goes on over a blanket ban, former users, like
:08:13. > :08:17.Paul, say every day the shops are open, customers play Russian
:08:17. > :08:24.roulette with their health. What worries me is, I went into it with
:08:24. > :08:31.my eyes wide open, but there are people going in not knowing. And,
:08:31. > :08:39.taking it and obviously they are ending up in hospital. They are
:08:39. > :08:44.dangerous. Full stop. Well, one lady who knows the heartache which
:08:44. > :08:49.legal highs can cause is Shirley Campbell, who is with me now.
:08:49. > :08:53.Shirley's son Lee took his own life after he was taking legal highs he
:08:53. > :09:00.was 17 years of age. Thank you so much for coming in. I can only
:09:00. > :09:05.imagine how you feel when you are watching that? It hurts. Very gut
:09:05. > :09:09.wrenching. I just can't believe things like that... Nothing has
:09:09. > :09:14.quitened down. It seems to have escalated more than anything. I
:09:14. > :09:18.don't understand how nothing has been put a cap on it. I would like
:09:18. > :09:23.to understand, through our time together tonight tonight, Shirley,
:09:23. > :09:28.just, first of all, the impact that these legal highs had on your son,
:09:28. > :09:38.it was methadone? Yes, it was. I should point out. What we filmed
:09:38. > :09:40.
:09:40. > :09:43.there, it is nothing to do with Met drome. It's an indication of the
:09:43. > :09:48.legal highs can have. Shirley's son isn't around any more because he
:09:48. > :09:55.took some of these substances. When did you first notice something was
:09:55. > :10:00.wrong? I would say about two-and-a- half to three months before he lost
:10:00. > :10:07.his life. It hit him very, very quickly. Did he change much when he
:10:07. > :10:11.took them? He did, very much so. He lost a powerful lot of weight.
:10:11. > :10:20.Stupid wee things like things missing out of the house. Being a
:10:20. > :10:25.wee bit edgey. The eyes go dark. I mean, the pupils in his eyes just
:10:26. > :10:32.went completely black and... His jaw started cracking and, you know,
:10:32. > :10:38.you would have said "Lee stop grinding your jaws." And "that's
:10:38. > :10:41.just the way I am and that that's how I do things now." So quickly I
:10:41. > :10:46.wasn't expecting to face what I faced. Did you know what the cause
:10:46. > :10:50.was? At that stage, no. His father would have known more about it.
:10:50. > :10:55.Would have got a lot more out of him. He told me it was all herbal.
:10:55. > :11:00.That whoever was supplying him told him 2 was - it was herbal. It was
:11:00. > :11:06.non-addictive. He could come off it any time. It was just something to
:11:06. > :11:12.give him a quick high that blow wasn't doing him any good. As mum
:11:12. > :11:17.you were telling him, "Son, don't take this, it's dangerous?" Yeah,
:11:17. > :11:21.they don't listen. It was "I will come off it", then the weekend
:11:21. > :11:27.comes, back out with the mates, on with it. I'm not saying all his
:11:27. > :11:30.mates did take it, but... At what stage did he start to really
:11:30. > :11:36.deteriorate, did you see a big change? The weight fell off him,
:11:36. > :11:41.very, very quickly. I started noticing a distinctive smell. It
:11:41. > :11:46.was... It wasn't a normal smell. Even when he showered or anything
:11:46. > :11:52.like he would still come out with a very... Deathly smell. I just
:11:52. > :11:57.wouldn't know how to describe it. I thought - no, here's me, things
:11:57. > :12:01.just couldn't be this bad, you know, I tried talking to him. He just
:12:01. > :12:06.wouldn't, but coming up to the final end, yes, he broke. He just
:12:06. > :12:12.told me, he begged me. This is your son we are looking at now. Begged
:12:12. > :12:22.me for help. He said, "Mum, I can't take it no more ." He says, "I need
:12:22. > :12:31.
:12:31. > :12:36.There is something you can achieve tonight and it is to send a signal
:12:36. > :12:39.to any young person, I do not care what age you are, if you are
:12:39. > :12:46.prepared to take the risk to take that stuff, or if you are selling
:12:46. > :12:51.it, tell me about your son and baking you, what impact it did
:12:52. > :13:00.these drugs have won a human being? He just did not know whether he was
:13:00. > :13:06.coming or going. He got totally lost. He held his head... It was as
:13:06. > :13:15.if something had taken over his mind to. He just lost his whole way
:13:15. > :13:22.of thinking... He could not sleep, he was restless. He did not know
:13:22. > :13:28.whether he was coming or going. He said to me, mummy, please help me.
:13:28. > :13:34.You do not understand how bad this is. He -- I said if you trust me,
:13:34. > :13:39.we will help you through this. I think at that stage, I had put him
:13:39. > :13:43.out of the house because I had given him an ultimatum, the drugs
:13:43. > :13:52.or his home. He went out for a couple of weeks but wanted to come
:13:52. > :13:57.home. I said OK. We got him home and... He said he was off the drugs
:13:57. > :14:01.from the Friday night, I think it was, and I picked him up on a
:14:01. > :14:06.Saturday morning, he was with his friends and I looked at him and I
:14:06. > :14:12.said, you are not the same person. He said I promise you I have not
:14:12. > :14:21.been on anything. It was on the Sunday where his father had come
:14:22. > :14:25.home from work early and found him looking for a rope. We sat and we
:14:25. > :14:29.talk to him, did not give him a lecture because it was the last
:14:29. > :14:35.thing anyone wants to hear when they are going through a bad time.
:14:35. > :14:43.We asked if he owed any money and he said No. We had a Mother's Day
:14:43. > :14:48.dinner. We got our last Mother's Day dinner with him. He went in and
:14:48. > :14:53.he laid down on the sofa, he gave us his mobile phone and he said, do
:14:53. > :14:58.not let me have it, I do not need to contact anyone. I need to get
:14:58. > :15:07.through this. I said, what about going to the Dr? He said he would
:15:07. > :15:17.do anything. It was not to be? Bruno Senna. He died about three RS
:15:17. > :15:18.
:15:18. > :15:28.after seeing the doctor. -- No. I came home and found them. -- found
:15:28. > :15:33.him. I cannot stress enough that this drug at that stage was legal.
:15:33. > :15:43.It was what was being described as a legal highs. It is exactly like
:15:43. > :15:47.these legal highs. These new substances, what they do is be
:15:47. > :15:51.changed the compound of them slightly, call it something else
:15:51. > :16:01.and they sell it to young people, they sell it to people of all ages
:16:01. > :16:04.
:16:04. > :16:14.and then sometimes it kills them. What do you think of the type of
:16:14. > :16:14.
:16:14. > :16:20.people who sell this stuff? Not a lot. You can call them murderers,
:16:20. > :16:23.because that is exactly what they are doing. They are selling stuff
:16:23. > :16:32.that they know people are getting addicted to and No There is no
:16:32. > :16:36.other way out. They are acting within the lot. A -- law. It is not
:16:36. > :16:42.a legal, it says on the packets, not for human consumption. There
:16:42. > :16:50.are still selling it. There are people out there who are getting
:16:50. > :16:58.away with it. This is not a programme tonight work I am having
:16:58. > :17:02.a go at the Assembly and asking the MLAs what they are doing about it,
:17:02. > :17:09.I am saying to us all as a society, including our administration in
:17:09. > :17:16.Stormont, what are we doing about it? If you look a collectively at
:17:16. > :17:23.all we can do, what they did it in the south, in Dublin, southern
:17:23. > :17:28.Ireland, they actually made it illegal to sell substances which
:17:28. > :17:33.mimicked the likes of cocaine or speed and therefore these shops and
:17:33. > :17:40.proprietors could not get around it by just altering the compound
:17:40. > :17:50.slightly. What are we doing in Northern Ireland? Pastor Brian
:17:50. > :17:51.
:17:51. > :17:56.Madden, where are you. --? things. I find this very emotional
:17:56. > :18:01.but I'm also very angry. I think she is a very gracious cleat the --
:18:01. > :18:07.lady, these are murderous parasites who are selling the stuff. I deal
:18:07. > :18:14.with a lot of people who are addicted to the substances.
:18:14. > :18:19.Incidentally, some of the shops that you visited, they seem to have
:18:20. > :18:29.been is shut down of. Let us not name any of these shops. I would
:18:30. > :18:30.
:18:30. > :18:34.not do that. I am not sure of the legal implications. For some reason,
:18:34. > :18:40.they're not getting the whole debate and testing it, it is being
:18:40. > :18:44.altered every few months. The lives I visit are ruined lives, children
:18:44. > :18:51.who are depressed, I have buried some of them, I have visited their
:18:51. > :18:54.parents... To any parents at there, I am involved in a group, we have
:18:54. > :19:03.rehabilitation centres all around the UK and we will help anyone we
:19:03. > :19:09.can. It we can let your parents know if her children are taking the
:19:09. > :19:14.stuff. The how bad is the scene around these type of drugs in
:19:14. > :19:21.Northern Ireland? Be it is really bad. We do work on Friday night and
:19:21. > :19:25.most of the young people have experimented, are taking this..
:19:26. > :19:35.They will take it for the cake and they will take it because they
:19:36. > :19:38.
:19:38. > :19:43.think it is the legal -- cake. We pick up the pieces. The guys in
:19:44. > :19:49.power need to do what they have done in Dublin. If it is not of
:19:49. > :19:54.used medically, it should be banned. I think I talk to you about this a
:19:54. > :20:04.few years ago and we are still talking about it. Are we that far
:20:04. > :20:04.
:20:04. > :20:09.behind? Just up at the back there. Hallow. You say you are not having
:20:09. > :20:13.a go. I think you should be having a go at them. They should be
:20:13. > :20:18.sitting there with you explaining why they are not changing the law.
:20:18. > :20:24.It is complicated. They would argue it is the responsibility of the
:20:24. > :20:31.Home Office perhaps. Do something about it! Make an attempt. Let us
:20:31. > :20:36.see that they are doing something. I am involved in a youth group in
:20:36. > :20:40.Ballyclare and we have had first- hand experience in this. Perhaps
:20:40. > :20:45.through a stronger drug but my concern would be that these legal
:20:45. > :20:54.highs lead on to something stronger. There is a man there in the front
:20:54. > :20:59.row. Just wait a like at the microphone to. I am sure your son
:20:59. > :21:04.would have benefited from support. There are organisations out there
:21:04. > :21:09.who are at their to help the youngsters. All of us should know
:21:09. > :21:13.that medicines, no matter where they are dispatched from, can be
:21:13. > :21:16.used and abused. On many occasions I have no one people who have been
:21:16. > :21:24.prescribed medicines and they do not want them, but the Chemist will
:21:24. > :21:29.still give them to them. This is not about a chemist. This is staff
:21:29. > :21:36.that is being described as bath salts and shoe polish. People are
:21:36. > :21:44.walking end up and getting best. Some of you at home are risking
:21:44. > :21:51.theSo by taking this stuff. This lady has come here to tell her that
:21:51. > :21:58.her son died. And why? Because he got gripped by the same substances
:21:58. > :22:03.that you reckon you will get away with. The chemist is there, you
:22:03. > :22:08.should check with him and then go for support. I am sure most young
:22:08. > :22:13.people do not have anything to do with drugs, it is the older people
:22:13. > :22:17.trying to make a quick buck and they are selling it. Young people
:22:17. > :22:22.are responsible and can look after each other and they are more
:22:22. > :22:32.educated than last. Lots of details on the screen about how you can get
:22:32. > :22:42.in touch. What are you thinking? am crying, Stephen. Do you know
:22:42. > :22:46.
:22:46. > :22:56.why? My sister's daughter killed herself. She had two beautiful
:22:56. > :22:58.
:22:58. > :23:08.girls. They had been taking these legal highs? Yes. We did not know.
:23:08. > :23:08.
:23:08. > :23:14.One had a child of four years old. If you do not stand up, someone
:23:14. > :23:20.like yourself, if they do not stand up and stop this... To any young
:23:20. > :23:28.person out there, I would say please, look at what you are doing
:23:28. > :23:33.to your beautiful wife. Thank you for your call. You talk about me
:23:33. > :23:38.standing up to these people, it is not about me, it is about as a
:23:38. > :23:43.society, we are a collective in Northern Ireland and that does
:23:43. > :23:47.include the very fine and decent politicians as well. It is about
:23:47. > :23:53.what we as a society are going to do about this. I want to give you
:23:53. > :23:59.the last word, what to say to any young person taking these? They
:23:59. > :24:04.have a right to say no. Even going back when my son was in primary
:24:04. > :24:10.school, he was even offered drugs in primary school, so it is not
:24:10. > :24:20.down to the parents, it is down to the kids as well. Can I say thank
:24:20. > :24:22.
:24:22. > :24:26.you for coming in? Gave her a round of a clause. -- applause. Lots of
:24:27. > :24:31.details on the screen if you want to engage in the discussion. Still
:24:31. > :24:34.to come. Mauritania roles too young to be criminals? We will be
:24:34. > :24:38.debating a proposed change to the age of criminal responsibility
:24:38. > :24:42.shortly. My next guest became a household
:24:42. > :24:45.name when he won the WBC heavyweight title in 1995 but over
:24:45. > :24:50.the last decade, Frank Bruno's success in the ring has been
:24:50. > :24:53.overshadowed by his battle with mental illness. First sectioned
:24:53. > :24:57.into 1003 following months of depression associated with the
:24:57. > :25:02.winding up of his boxing career and the breakdown of his marriage, he
:25:02. > :25:06.was subsequently diagnosed as having a bipolar disorder. This
:25:06. > :25:11.year, his family intervened twice to have him treated in secure a
:25:11. > :25:15.mental health units. He has since criticised his treatment by the NHS
:25:15. > :25:25.saying his hospitalisation made him feel worse not better, please
:25:25. > :25:34.
:25:34. > :25:41.welcome Frank Bruno. Hello. Thank you. Let me see the size of those
:25:41. > :25:48.hands! Not much more difference, is at? A bigger difference. I
:25:48. > :25:57.guarantee I will be nice. You are so kind to! You are very kind.
:25:57. > :26:02.just want to sit and listen to you laugh or might! A -- all night. You
:26:02. > :26:09.turned professional in 1982 and you were cutting out a reputation for
:26:09. > :26:15.yourself and then in 1989, you went up against Mike Tyson. Yes.
:26:15. > :26:19.scary was it? Be it was pretty scary, but it was my profession.
:26:19. > :26:27.When you first got into this job, I suppose it was very scary. I had to
:26:27. > :26:32.get on with it. It was not too scary. Mike Tyson was a monster!
:26:32. > :26:40.wasn't an alligator that, or a blubbering or a gorilla. He is just
:26:41. > :26:46.a human. He was no more of a monster than the or you. How do you
:26:46. > :26:51.hide when you are in a boxing ring, you are fears? You have got to have
:26:51. > :26:58.a certain amount of fear. You do, but if you had too much fear it you
:26:58. > :27:04.would never leave the dressing Room. Your heart is pumping a little bit
:27:04. > :27:11.faster than normal. Can you share with us if you really were
:27:11. > :27:18.confident that you could take that powerhouse down? Out to mean's had
:27:18. > :27:22.you any real worries that he would knock you out? Boxing is boxing.
:27:22. > :27:30.That is my chosen profession. I know what will I am letting myself
:27:30. > :27:36.in for. It was normal. It would be more scary if I had to be in your
:27:37. > :27:45.seat and I had to read from the autocue and get everything right.
:27:45. > :27:55.That would scare me more. Five very rarely get the autocue right!
:27:55. > :28:05.
:28:05. > :28:09.would get very scared. It is miles When had you your career what
:28:09. > :28:15.happened up here was really, really important You had to be in total
:28:15. > :28:20.control of your mind, right? A-lot of the time. Definitely, when
:28:20. > :28:24.someone is punching you in the head or the belly, you are hoping they
:28:24. > :28:29.don't get you in the tools, do you know what I mean? You have to be
:28:29. > :28:32.very aware of what you are doing. If you weren't aware of what you
:28:32. > :28:38.are doing... You know what amean? You would be break dancing... That
:28:38. > :28:45.is the way you go when you get hit in the centre of the wicket, is it?
:28:45. > :28:49.On the dance floor you hip-hop. You have to be very, very... Your focus
:28:49. > :28:54.and your, you know what amean, you have to be worried what is
:28:54. > :28:57.happening behind you as well. have all of that activity. You have
:28:57. > :29:03.all that adrenaline? Yeah. Everything is happening in your
:29:03. > :29:08.life? Yeah. You are on top of the world and then... I wouldn't go far
:29:08. > :29:15.to say top of the world. I was only top of the world for about a month.
:29:15. > :29:20.But there comes a time when it stops? Yeah. That's when you got
:29:20. > :29:25.into trouble with yourself? wouldn't go so far to say auto got
:29:25. > :29:32.into trouble with myself. I have been a loner. I met my wife early
:29:32. > :29:38.on in my life. I met her at 17/18. I was locked into a prison, you
:29:38. > :29:43.know what aI mean a military prison. I couldn't look left or right. I
:29:43. > :29:48.had to do everything that I had to do. I was in training camp,
:29:48. > :29:53.regimental, whatever. When I left all that, I didn't explode, I
:29:53. > :29:58.enjoyed myself a little bit more than I would have done. I was
:29:58. > :30:01.like... When you're married, if a nice lady comes along, you have to
:30:01. > :30:09.look straight ahead much you can't look at her bump or anything like
:30:09. > :30:14.that. A lot of people know what I mean! When all of that... When all
:30:14. > :30:22.of that manic activity stops though? Yeah. What was the silence
:30:22. > :30:30.like, what was the gap like? Many sportsmen will talk about this?
:30:30. > :30:34.Yeah. What was it like. My trainer, God rest his soul, he said the
:30:34. > :30:39.biggest fight will be when you retire from fighting. I couldn't
:30:39. > :30:43.understand what he was saying. When you are active and doing this and
:30:44. > :30:48.all over the place and busy, cameras and training camps, it's
:30:48. > :30:52.very odd. You have to get on with it. I'm still here now.
:30:52. > :30:56.certainly are. To prove. certainly are, sir. Was that the
:30:56. > :31:01.beginning, do you feel, of your fight against depression? I don't
:31:01. > :31:08.really know, you know. I think I had depression when I was eight or
:31:08. > :31:14.nine. Really? I think so, if I check myself and the things I had
:31:14. > :31:20.to do. I got sent to posh boarding school, when I was 12. I had
:31:20. > :31:26.problems there when I came out I had problems. I had it for a lnge,
:31:26. > :31:30.long time in my life, but it came out after the marriage. The doctor
:31:30. > :31:35.diagnosed me as being bipolar, but I don't really think them places
:31:35. > :31:39.what they put you in the hospitals do you any good. Sometimes they use
:31:39. > :31:43.you as a guinea pig. We will talk about that in a second. It was
:31:43. > :31:50.after your marriage broke down that you took a break down, didn't you?
:31:50. > :31:57.Yeah. This was well publicised? Yeah. All over the tabloids. Right.
:31:57. > :32:03.Can you describe the break down? you have a partner you break up
:32:03. > :32:08.from it, you lose the kids, the house and you lose money. It can't
:32:08. > :32:13.be good for anybody's soul or heart. Can you put words to what happened
:32:13. > :32:18.to you... No, I can't, to be honest. It was a terrible feeling,
:32:18. > :32:22.disgusting feeling. What is it, is it a loneliness, fatigue, what is
:32:22. > :32:27.it? I can't really tell you what is it, you know what I mean? You lose
:32:27. > :32:33.a loft money, fatigue, it's upset. You're frustrated. You know what I
:32:33. > :32:38.mean, you think people are ganging up against you. Things roll into
:32:38. > :32:42.one. You still have to get on with life and do what you have to do.
:32:42. > :32:48.What the press did to you was plaster headlines all over the UK
:32:48. > :32:55.saying had you gone bonkers that was the lack of understanding that
:32:55. > :32:59.there was about mental ill health. That was Rebecca Wade from the Sun,
:32:59. > :33:09.what do you expect? APPLAUSE
:33:09. > :33:09.
:33:09. > :33:15.Did it hurt? It hurt a little bit, but I was going a little bit do-
:33:15. > :33:19.lal-y. A little bit... I'm not too sure. You know what I mean? One of
:33:19. > :33:23.those things that happens in life. When it's smooth, it's smooth. When
:33:24. > :33:30.it's rough, it's rough. You have to get on with it. You talk about how
:33:30. > :33:36.horrible it is to be Sectioned. How does that work? Do the police knock
:33:36. > :33:38.your door? Yeah. They come to your door with two doctors who know
:33:38. > :33:45.about mental health, they don't know what time it is or what time
:33:45. > :33:50.of day it is. They have the power to come and take you to a mental
:33:50. > :33:56.health place, recently there were two Asian guys, I didn't understand
:33:56. > :34:01.a word they were saying. The police Sergeant was there laughing at them.
:34:01. > :34:06.I said, the more you laugh at them, the more they will put me in. I
:34:06. > :34:15.swear, as God sees me here, twice they came to my house and said, "We
:34:15. > :34:19.are going to section..." I couldn't understand what they were saying.
:34:19. > :34:25.Now, these people can't speak properly, they have the power to
:34:25. > :34:31.say I have to go and be sectioned. You were ill? That is the first
:34:31. > :34:35.time I admit when I was divorced and and my marriage, not recently.
:34:35. > :34:42.I don't think I was that ill to get sectioned twice. What is it like
:34:42. > :34:46.inside those places? It's a crazy place. You know what I mean, Kew
:34:46. > :34:50.coo. You know what I mean. When people get up in the morning they
:34:50. > :34:56.are all right because they are not on the medication. Once they take
:34:56. > :34:59.the medication they it is a Kew coo place. It's serious, it's not a
:34:59. > :35:03.jokey place. It's horrible. They put you in there for three months.
:35:03. > :35:09.They put new there for a month, 2 days. They have the power to
:35:09. > :35:13.experiment with you, like a guinea pig, give you all different tablets.
:35:14. > :35:16.A lot of these mental health institutions very much care about
:35:16. > :35:21.people? Care bfplt all they care about is getting the money and
:35:21. > :35:26.getting the numbers up, to be honest. Not them all? Not all of
:35:27. > :35:31.them. They are getting the numbers out. It's a merry-go-round. Big
:35:31. > :35:37.money spinning thing, I think. did you get out? I got a tribunal.
:35:37. > :35:42.I got out, the first one I got out after eight days. The second one I
:35:43. > :35:47.was supposed to stay in there for six months, I got out after five
:35:47. > :35:51.weeks. I'm persistent if I feel I'm right. If I'm wrong I hold my hands
:35:51. > :35:57.up and take it on the chin. I know that the majority of this audience,
:35:57. > :36:02.when I look at you, and when they look at you they will have a
:36:02. > :36:06.certain man called "Harry" in their mind. You know what I mean, Harry!
:36:06. > :36:11.He was a very good boy. Unfortunately, he died, I think,
:36:11. > :36:15.last year or the year before. That a very good man. Very classy guy.
:36:15. > :36:23.How close were you? We never kissed or anything like that.
:36:24. > :36:29.APPLAUSE But we was... He had a lot of
:36:29. > :36:33.respect for me. I think he got him self in trouble because he was
:36:33. > :36:36.supposed to be professional, sometimes he let his guard down and
:36:36. > :36:40.got carried away. Nothing dodgy. LAUGHTER
:36:40. > :36:47.Between us. It was purely professional. He is a good man. I
:36:47. > :36:54.admire him a lot. Where did the, "do you know what I mean, Harry"
:36:54. > :36:59.come from? How did it catch on? of the fights I had the BBC was
:36:59. > :37:04.getting humpy. One of the opponents I went in, he was a massive guy who
:37:04. > :37:13.knocked me out in the first round, after about seven rounds I was
:37:13. > :37:22.still Kew coo -- cuckoo when he knocked around me. He said, "That
:37:22. > :37:30.was a good punch he caught you?" I was like "that is a good punch,
:37:30. > :37:34.what do you mean?". It's good for business, I think. What is the
:37:34. > :37:38.future for Frank Bruno? I don't know what the future is. I'm going
:37:38. > :37:43.to try to be happy, duck and dive and keep myself out of trouble and
:37:43. > :37:47.try to keep happy. I'm going to try to keep out of these places. I will
:37:47. > :37:51.fight them if they come to my house. On a Sunday, in the afternoon,
:37:51. > :37:55.after I did a charity thing and coming to my house telling me I
:37:55. > :38:01.have to be sectioned. What is wrong is wrong, what is right is right.
:38:01. > :38:06.That is how I see it. I will try and keep happy and duck and dive.
:38:06. > :38:12.Are you happy? I am happy. Are you still training? I'm training every
:38:12. > :38:19.day. You really should look after yourself a wee bit more, Frank?
:38:19. > :38:24.LAUGHTER I do a little bit of training here
:38:24. > :38:30.and there, do you know what I mean? To look after myself. If I said I
:38:30. > :38:35.might need to lose a pound or two... Yeah. What recommendation would you
:38:35. > :38:45.give me? Iep' not too sure. I would start with -- I'm not too sure. I
:38:45. > :38:47.
:38:47. > :38:53.would start with walking. I don't do walking! You are kept busy.
:38:53. > :38:58.couple hundred pressups? sittups, do a couple, start walking,
:38:58. > :39:08.do you know what I mean? Zip up the fridge! Ladies and gentlemen, Frank
:39:08. > :39:10.
:39:10. > :39:14.Bruno. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Here's a
:39:14. > :39:24.quick reminder of how you can get in touch with the programme
:39:24. > :39:44.
:39:44. > :39:47.Do you think a 10-year-old understands say murder or sexual
:39:47. > :39:52.assault? Should 10 and 11-year-olds be made criminals if they break the
:39:52. > :39:58.law? Is court the best way to deal with offenders this young? The just
:39:58. > :40:04.jis minister David Ford wants to raise the age of criminal
:40:04. > :40:14.responsibility from 10 to 12. What do you think at home? Here to
:40:14. > :40:20.
:40:20. > :40:24.discuss it, Jonathan Bell and Conal The DUP's position is that ten
:40:24. > :40:27.years of age is the right age, the law should stay where it is, right?
:40:27. > :40:31.We are content with where the law is at the moment. Firstly we should
:40:31. > :40:34.look to the victim first. We always talk about the needs of the
:40:34. > :40:39.perpetrator. Let's think of the needs of the victims. They are the
:40:39. > :40:42.innocent party in all of this. a child? Many of the victims are
:40:42. > :40:47.children. Many of the children I worked with in social work have
:40:47. > :40:52.been sexually assaulted, raped and severely injured by another child.
:40:52. > :40:56.Let's look to the victim first before we start look together needs
:40:56. > :41:01.of the perpetrator. There are a number of ways which we can deal
:41:01. > :41:04.with. Does a 10-year-old and a 11- year-old and a 112-year-old know
:41:05. > :41:09.the difference between right and wrong? I've a 11-year-old daughter
:41:09. > :41:13.myself. She is a beautiful child. She is 11 going on 121, she will
:41:13. > :41:18.chance her arm. She knows the difference between right and wrong.
:41:18. > :41:23.Let's not talk about your daughter. Does any 10-year-old understand
:41:23. > :41:30.criminality or the consequences of doing something - The vast majority
:41:30. > :41:35.of them do. We have 69,235 children in Northern Ireland today who are
:41:35. > :41:42.between 10 and 12 years of age. Do you know what percentage were
:41:42. > :41:46.involved in crime last year 0.04%. Why? A minuscule amount of children
:41:46. > :41:50.were involved in crime. Why? vast majority of children do know
:41:50. > :41:58.the difference between right and wrong. What makes a 10-year-old a
:41:58. > :42:02.serious law breaker? There can be 1,000 reasons why someone will get
:42:02. > :42:05.involved in anti-social behaviour, someone will damage a car. I don't
:42:05. > :42:10.understand why we're not willing to have a grownup conversation about
:42:10. > :42:15.this issue. There are several things worth noting. We are out of
:42:15. > :42:20.sync with the rest of Europe. The age of criminal responsibility is
:42:20. > :42:24.lower than anywhere else in Europe. People like the Royal Society, the
:42:24. > :42:28.top scientists in this land are telling us that, from a
:42:28. > :42:34.neuroscience point of view, kids aged 10 don't know, more often than
:42:34. > :42:37.not, what criminal act is. It's not the same to say "you're criminally
:42:37. > :42:41.responsible" as to know the difference between right and wrong.
:42:41. > :42:47.Finally, I think the reason we need to have a grownup debate, what we
:42:47. > :42:52.need to do is have a conversation with what the representative from
:42:52. > :42:56.banard owes was talking about is having the age lowered for nearly
:42:56. > :43:06.all crimes but not for serious things like murder, rape or sexual
:43:06. > :43:07.
:43:07. > :43:15.assault. The Cup DUP are refusing to have the debate. -- DUP are
:43:15. > :43:19.refusing to have the debate. They knew what they were doing was wrong
:43:19. > :43:23.they knew it was criminal. We have to to be serious about these
:43:23. > :43:33.serious offences. How do you know they knew it was criminal? I have
:43:33. > :43:42.
:43:42. > :43:46.I have been in court what these young children have stood in front
:43:46. > :43:52.of judges and said that they knew what they were doing wrong and
:43:52. > :43:56.pleaded guilty, that is how I know. You are saying that a 10-year-old
:43:56. > :44:02.in an adult court, first of all that that is the place to put them
:44:02. > :44:06.and they know what is going on? at all. The only way we can deal
:44:06. > :44:12.with children who have committed wrong is to put them through an
:44:12. > :44:16.adult court? Would you should know better. The reality is that there
:44:16. > :44:21.are a number of different disposals. The bass majority of our young
:44:22. > :44:26.people get dealt with by a warning from the police, yes they have
:44:26. > :44:31.committed an offence, a police officer will come to the Home and
:44:31. > :44:35.will explain to them what they have done wrong, give them a warning, it
:44:35. > :44:40.does not give them a criminal record, so dark are a number of
:44:41. > :44:50.different ways to deal with this. Let us go to the audience. I want
:44:51. > :44:51.
:44:51. > :45:01.to ask you about young people breaking the law. Not all of them
:45:01. > :45:01.
:45:01. > :45:07.are breaking the law. Do not think it would be better putting money
:45:07. > :45:12.into research and seeing why they are breaking the law? There are a
:45:12. > :45:18.lot of people out there who believe a leopard does not change its spots.
:45:18. > :45:24.Do believe that they no go difference between right and wrong?
:45:24. > :45:34.I think there needs to be more support in the background for a 10
:45:34. > :45:38.year olds. I agree. Let me move to someone in the back. I am a
:45:38. > :45:45.shopkeeper. My experience is that children are around that age are
:45:45. > :45:50.exactly the same. I do not see any evidence that a 10-year-old is any
:45:50. > :45:57.less or knows any less about what they are doing than a 12-year-old.
:45:57. > :46:03.Would you make it to lower? Were due drawled aline? Look at what has
:46:03. > :46:08.happened here within the last 48 hours. Let me stop you. There is a
:46:09. > :46:16.lot of detail around that case that is separate. We are talking about a
:46:16. > :46:26.10 year olds. What do you think? They are primary school children.
:46:26. > :46:26.
:46:26. > :46:32.It is crazy. Northern Ireland is as backward as Wales and England. You
:46:32. > :46:39.can pick Switzerland as an exception. You can pick one
:46:39. > :46:45.country... 12 in Scotland and 12 that mainly in the south of Ireland,
:46:45. > :46:51.their team in France, 14 in Germany, at 16 in Spain, all more civilised
:46:51. > :47:01.than Northern Ireland, Wales and England in how they treat children.
:47:01. > :47:05.One second. The this is the fallacy that it always deals in an adult
:47:05. > :47:10.court, it does not. The vast majority of young people are dealt
:47:10. > :47:16.with it with a warning. I have sat in youth conferences with the
:47:16. > :47:22.victim and often the young person feels, when I burgled someone, I
:47:22. > :47:26.did not realise at was taking some think of sentimental value. When
:47:26. > :47:30.the victim explains that the impact, the young children do not go to
:47:30. > :47:35.adult court or get a criminal record. They take responsibility
:47:35. > :47:42.for what they do. If you sit down with them and talk to them you can
:47:42. > :47:48.show them a better way. You do not have to put primary-school children
:47:48. > :47:55.in the adult criminal system. does not go to an adult court!
:47:55. > :48:05.think we need to remember James Bulger who was murdered by a two 10
:48:05. > :48:05.
:48:05. > :48:12.euros. We have got to the solicitor of one of the killers, Lawrence Lee
:48:12. > :48:18.criminal defence lawyer. How low. What is sure Duke? I represented
:48:18. > :48:23.Jon Venables in the case. I cannot believe it is nearly 20 years ago.
:48:23. > :48:28.I have been on many programmes, including yours, and said in my
:48:28. > :48:35.opinion, even though I defended 10, the age of criminal responsibility
:48:35. > :48:38.is correct. I want to say that I a key not advocate that every single
:48:38. > :48:43.child of 10 whose deals Smarties from Tesco's should be prosecuted
:48:43. > :48:50.and I think I am right in saying that the Republic of Ireland has a
:48:50. > :48:57.two-tier system and I advocate that, work by indictable crimes like rape,
:48:57. > :49:01.murder... Does a 10-year-old understand rape? You cannot take
:49:01. > :49:07.them all for granted, every child is different. We are talking about
:49:07. > :49:11.a very small minority of children. In my experience, their
:49:11. > :49:17.understanding of right and wrong has developed over the last 20
:49:17. > :49:24.years with the introduction of violent I t, computer videos,
:49:24. > :49:30.computer violence, pornography and one of my other theories... One of
:49:30. > :49:35.my guests here is shaking his head. I have read a lot of the stuff that
:49:35. > :49:39.he has written, he talks openly about marauding crowds in the
:49:39. > :49:47.States as if every 10-year-old is out of control, they are harassed
:49:47. > :49:57.in people. That is what he said. He has talked about reducing the age
:49:57. > :50:00.
:50:00. > :50:10.to eight. Had used said that? never said that. Are you making
:50:10. > :50:11.
:50:11. > :50:20.this up? I was reading this in the Green Room! BZ he did not say it!
:50:20. > :50:26.Be he was misquoted on the BBC website then! A what do you want to
:50:26. > :50:32.say? I would like to see where I said that. Switzerland I saying
:50:32. > :50:40.seven and some states in America are saying sex! There is no
:50:40. > :50:45.evidence that children's brains, developing a more. There is none.
:50:45. > :50:50.And there is serious research published to say that you cannot
:50:50. > :50:57.treat a 10-year-old as been assumed as being able to have the cognitive
:50:57. > :51:00.ability to know the difference. Very quickly. Those countries with
:51:00. > :51:06.higher ages of criminal responsibility do not have higher
:51:06. > :51:10.crime rates. Let us go into the audience. I think the parents
:51:10. > :51:14.should take some responsibility and you have to live into... Coming
:51:14. > :51:20.into the dark nights, children as young as 10 should not be out
:51:20. > :51:27.playing in dark streets. Her child throwing a stone at a car stealing
:51:27. > :51:35.sweets, that is where it starts, where does it stop? You have to nip
:51:35. > :51:42.it in the bud and not let it continue. A guy at the front.
:51:42. > :51:52.two years, my son's lives was made hell by children aged between 8 and
:51:52. > :51:53.
:51:53. > :51:59.10. They beat him with sticks, they dropped a breeze block on his head,
:51:59. > :52:03.I meant to bring a picture with need to show you, his face was
:52:03. > :52:07.swollen and black and blue. This went on for two-and-a-half years.
:52:08. > :52:13.The minute they turned 10, it stopped. He changed go and it did
:52:13. > :52:18.not happen again. The minute at the police became involved it stopped.
:52:18. > :52:24.Hold on. The problem is we have a soft justice system, you move on up
:52:24. > :52:32.the ranks and everyone is complaining, so we want to move it
:52:32. > :52:42.up to 12 and let them get away with it for two years. This needs change.
:52:42. > :52:45.
:52:45. > :52:49.Would you want it brought down so AIDS? -- eight. We had to send my
:52:49. > :52:55.son to a psychiatrist. He was diagnosed as clinically depressed
:52:55. > :52:59.and he asked how he could kill himself. His life was hell and back
:52:59. > :53:05.stop once the police became involved. There are a couple of
:53:05. > :53:09.things here. It is a serious point. Just because the age of criminal
:53:09. > :53:13.responsibility might be 12, it does not mean the police cannot get
:53:13. > :53:18.involved. The police can always get involved is something wrong is
:53:18. > :53:23.being done. What the age of criminal responsibility, it carries
:53:23. > :53:29.a lot of weight. So would I use detention order or taking the child
:53:29. > :53:36.into care. No one is arguing that there are not a small number of
:53:36. > :53:43.kids who will lose their liberty at a young age. You need to have a
:53:43. > :53:50.balanced justice system. There are real people who are hurting as
:53:50. > :53:56.victims. Why are you not on the side of the victim? It worked in
:53:57. > :54:04.Australia, the United States... us go to the phone lines. I have
:54:05. > :54:14.nine boys. I want to say, and why are you even listening to those
:54:15. > :54:15.
:54:15. > :54:19.people? I have had to listen to them half my life! That woman who
:54:20. > :54:29.was on earlier who threw her son out at 15, I am sorry, I have no
:54:30. > :54:33.
:54:33. > :54:43.sympathy for her Dawn hold on. was a very brave lady. Listen to me.
:54:43. > :54:47.
:54:47. > :54:52.Do you know what, I am sorry, let us stop the call. There is a reason.
:54:52. > :54:57.Do you know what, you do not have a clue about the details of the case,
:54:57. > :55:02.you do not know what she went through and also, she lost her son
:55:02. > :55:06.and that is not going to happen that you judge her on this live
:55:06. > :55:12.television programme. That is not happening. Right at the back there,
:55:12. > :55:22.who do we have? Which a hand up. Who is one thing to talk at the
:55:22. > :55:22.
:55:22. > :55:27.very back? I feel that parents are responsible for their children.
:55:27. > :55:33.They should be teaching them from an early age right from wrong. It
:55:33. > :55:36.is too late when they are eight or 10 or even when they are a team it
:55:36. > :55:42.to try and teach them what is right or wrong, they should be taught
:55:42. > :55:48.right from early on from when they are very small. Just in front there.
:55:48. > :55:51.I recently completed one of those news conference services with a
:55:51. > :55:54.person who stole my car and I thought it was the best way. He
:55:54. > :55:58.told me why he did it and he has to come up with his own punishment and
:55:58. > :56:06.I have to agree with that and if not he goes back to court. He was
:56:06. > :56:10.15. It is a different age groups. We're talking about whether you can
:56:11. > :56:17.actually determined it a 10-year- old understands criminality.
:56:17. > :56:22.Definitely. I think they do. The everyone is born with their love of
:56:22. > :56:32.Christ in them so they all have a conscience. That gentlemen, where
:56:32. > :56:35.
:56:35. > :56:45.are you from? SDLP. Where is his accent? I am a northerner by Troy
:56:45. > :56:48.
:56:48. > :56:54.is. Keep your nose out of our business! At one level it is very
:56:54. > :56:59.funny, and on another level it is not very funny at all. Let him
:56:59. > :57:05.finish. Thousands of people in the City voted for me to represent them
:57:05. > :57:13.and if you do not like my accent... I did not saying that the! I am
:57:13. > :57:22.proud of the fact that all those people bolted from the. Thank you.
:57:22. > :57:28.A I think he has got a nice accent, actually! Where are you from a?
:57:28. > :57:32.Tyneside. I will get shouted at by that all men. If the children
:57:33. > :57:36.between 10 and 12 and do things wrong of course we have to
:57:37. > :57:42.intervene under will have to be a punishment, but the question is how
:57:42. > :57:49.do you do it? Kanes had a cot in adult criminal justice early have a
:57:49. > :57:52.huge reoffending rate. What does work is were you bring the young
:57:52. > :57:58.person with the victim and the then agreed to the victim how they
:57:58. > :58:04.restore, they do not go to court, get a criminal record and the
:58:04. > :58:11.criminality in his net in the bud. I will give you 10 seconds. I do
:58:11. > :58:16.agree with them. At a new road is a reasonable age to be put through
:58:16. > :58:21.the criminal justice system. You can make the victim and it can be
:58:21. > :58:30.rectified. Thank you very much. There are politicians a round of