:00:21. > :00:29.Welcome to the first Nowlan show. Are we any closer to bringing the
:00:29. > :00:37.crisis over the union flag to an end. Also, these men will tell
:00:37. > :00:47.their remarkable story in the studio after their transplant
:00:47. > :01:01.
:01:01. > :01:06.Don't you very much for joining us. It is important for all of us here,
:01:06. > :01:10.what we will be discussing. I know many of you want to have your say.
:01:10. > :01:20.There is no point ringing us tonight, but you can get in contact
:01:20. > :01:36.
:01:36. > :01:41.Sectarian fighting, plastic bullets, water cannons deployed. Petrol
:01:41. > :01:47.bombs, bywords bricks and bottles thrown. Over 100 police officers
:01:47. > :01:53.injured. 85 people have been charged in connection with the
:01:53. > :01:57.rioting and why? Because of this flag. In a minute we will be
:01:57. > :02:02.discussing the fall-out from all of this, the financial impact on what
:02:02. > :02:06.needs to be done to make it stop. But first, let us look back at some
:02:06. > :02:16.of the images of Northern Ireland that had been beamed around the
:02:16. > :02:25.
:02:25. > :02:32.There has never been peace here. The Good Friday Agreement was a
:02:32. > :02:41.false peace. We have all been walkover. It is time now for the
:02:41. > :02:50.Protestant people to take a stand, once and for all. I am not able to
:02:50. > :02:59.court the people off. That is the responsibility of others. They need
:02:59. > :03:09.to step up to the mark and they need to step up to it now. We want
:03:09. > :03:11.
:03:11. > :03:17.the culture that we have to be respected. Once you move, they will
:03:17. > :03:22.do what they normally do. That camera has just been hit. Are you
:03:22. > :03:32.alright? And the people that are calling for protest need to take a
:03:32. > :03:35.
:03:35. > :03:41.step back and think about the I support people's right to have a
:03:41. > :03:49.peaceful protest. I do not support their right to be going bricks and
:03:49. > :03:59.petrol bombs at the PSNI. -- throwing bricks and petrol bombs at
:03:59. > :03:59.
:03:59. > :04:09.the PSNI. A we need to show people who are doing this stuff that it is
:04:09. > :04:22.
:04:22. > :04:28.wrong. There is a better alternative that delivers on the
:04:28. > :04:38.political agenda. Be it is doing serious damage to the economy and
:04:38. > :04:43.to the image of our city. Obviously, many of you will have
:04:43. > :04:47.differing views as you are watching that, where ever you are living in
:04:47. > :04:50.Northern Ireland. Let us try to get a sense of those different views
:04:50. > :04:56.tonight to this television programme and what we are going to
:04:56. > :05:06.do about it. Jim Wilson, I would like to start with you. What is
:05:06. > :05:06.
:05:06. > :05:12.their anger about? Explain the anger within loyalism to me? I had
:05:12. > :05:18.been talking about the desire of Sinn Fein to erode my culture and
:05:18. > :05:22.everything I hold dear. Unfortunately, it comes down to
:05:22. > :05:32.inquiry after inquiry. �2 million had been spent. It has not been
:05:32. > :05:35.
:05:35. > :05:44.enough. The Prime Minister apologises, but what about my
:05:44. > :05:51.community? They have been so many different situations. So it is not
:05:51. > :05:56.about the flag? Let me finish. It is about a litany of things. You
:05:56. > :06:03.take the Parades Commission and how they had been operating. You take
:06:03. > :06:09.the historic inquiries. Last year at the number was 92 people been
:06:09. > :06:18.charged. 89 of those were Protestants when 65 % of the
:06:18. > :06:24.atrocities were caused by Gerry Adams and his people. I had been
:06:24. > :06:28.doing interviews all week with journalists from all over the world.
:06:28. > :06:38.This is the straw that has broken the camel's back. It is not down to
:06:38. > :06:45.
:06:45. > :06:54.the flag. But, gin, here is your problem. Hold on... That is not the
:06:54. > :07:00.message going around the world. Whether you like it or not, and I
:07:00. > :07:05.know you condemn violence, when there are protests out on the
:07:05. > :07:10.ground and you might have really, really valid arguments, you might
:07:10. > :07:14.have really valid rules, as soon as one of them has a petrol bomb in
:07:14. > :07:18.their hands, that is the message that goes around the world. Once
:07:18. > :07:27.someone throws bricks at the police, that is the image that goes around
:07:27. > :07:35.the world and your message is lost. Can you not see that? The media
:07:35. > :07:41.focuses in on the minority who might pick up a petrol bomb. We see
:07:41. > :07:51.Gerry Adams won and around as a peacemaker. I don't see focussing
:07:51. > :07:58.
:07:58. > :08:08.on that dissidents who are entwined with Sinn Fein. If members of their
:08:08. > :08:15.
:08:15. > :08:20.community are moving on, Wyatt was a prison officer shot in the head?
:08:20. > :08:24.Many of these protests had been peaceful. We need to focus on away
:08:24. > :08:34.young people who want to get involved. We need to look at the
:08:34. > :08:38.
:08:38. > :08:43.At just want to nail this. When you talk about the media, for goodness
:08:43. > :08:49.sake, be informed about it. I have asked Gerry Kelly very difficult
:08:49. > :08:53.questions. In the last juries, I put it to and that some people saw
:08:53. > :08:57.him as a former in a suit, I asked a Martin McGuinness how many times
:08:58. > :09:00.he pulled the trigger no past, he refused to are so, you're wrong if
:09:00. > :09:07.you suggest the brilliant newspaper or journalists and television
:09:07. > :09:15.journalists in this country, we all try to do a balanced, decent job. I
:09:15. > :09:22.do not want this to be about us. Do you acknowledge that these people
:09:22. > :09:27.have had enough, that they see what terror brought you, what it brought
:09:27. > :09:34.Sinn Fein and now they are sick and tired of you criticising them when
:09:34. > :09:40.they have had enough. You are moralising about terror. We would
:09:40. > :09:50.not say what is more all and what isn't. As the protest know about
:09:50. > :10:00.Sinn Fein? Have realised been at them over the last 30 years as
:10:00. > :10:02.
:10:02. > :10:07.well? Let me finish. Let me talk. promise I will give you a chance.
:10:07. > :10:12.You're complaining because there was an inquiry? You are complaining
:10:12. > :10:21.because there was inquiries into Bloody Sunday, which was the state
:10:21. > :10:30.murdering 14 people. But, if I am the problem, then come to me. If I
:10:30. > :10:38.am the problem... That it is me, what are you doing protesting over
:10:38. > :10:45.the flag? I promise you will get a chance. I need you to put your hand
:10:45. > :10:49.up, and you will get the chance, a direct question to Gerry Kelly.
:10:49. > :10:53.asked me for the feelings about in the street. I will give you
:10:53. > :10:58.something that happened this week. We have the Chief Constable coming
:10:58. > :11:03.out and apologising to the residents of the Short Strand. I
:11:03. > :11:08.was asked to go out on the streets by police. My grandson and myself
:11:08. > :11:13.were battened, when were beaten to the ground, community workers were
:11:13. > :11:21.a Deayton to the ground, and chief constable comes out, and that he
:11:21. > :11:30.apologise to us? No, I didn't. I will give you the point that I want
:11:30. > :11:34.to make. Gerry Adams came along, I want to ask him a question, he said
:11:34. > :11:44.that nobody threw stones from the Short Strand will have a go at the
:11:44. > :11:46.
:11:46. > :11:56.police. And do you agree with that? I didn't say that. In fairness to
:11:56. > :12:11.
:12:11. > :12:21.Listen, listen, listen to him. Whatever the quality impact was a
:12:21. > :12:21.
:12:22. > :12:31.done on this audience, it wasn't done right. When there is a tax,
:12:32. > :12:33.
:12:33. > :12:41.saying that it was started over here, are you saying to me? I don't
:12:41. > :12:44.even understand that. Are you going to it... Went with us get something
:12:44. > :12:51.out of this tonight. You have challenged in, what is your
:12:51. > :12:59.response? Do you have a specific question? Here is the opportunity,
:12:59. > :13:02.to Gerry Kelly? Let me ask a question, over here, the people
:13:02. > :13:07.have been told about the peace process, the young Protestants,
:13:07. > :13:12.that we have to accept this peace process, now, the process by
:13:12. > :13:17.definition has a start and an end. Nobody has ever come and told us
:13:17. > :13:22.what the end of this process is, at what point is a complete? In your
:13:22. > :13:25.eyes, as Sinn Fein, when is it complete? You used nice words like
:13:25. > :13:31.equality and shared future, it is all lovely, and it sounds fantastic
:13:32. > :13:36.across the world, but these are weapons of war to you, in Ulster
:13:36. > :13:46.territory, and the young Protestants are no longer going to
:13:46. > :13:52.
:13:52. > :13:56.You have made militant statements, and I know about militant
:13:56. > :14:01.statements. I know my background, everybody in the room knows about
:14:01. > :14:09.it, I was involved in a conflict, we had a piece Cross, we have done
:14:09. > :14:14.very well through the peace process... He -- a peace process.
:14:14. > :14:18.Is there legitimate anger? understand anger but you have to
:14:18. > :14:22.work out the difference between perception and reality. You talk
:14:22. > :14:28.about equality. Equality should be a little world. I am happy for you
:14:28. > :14:32.to use it as I used it. I am happy to have a quality but when you say
:14:32. > :14:35.that the Protestant working-class, working-class people with a
:14:35. > :14:42.Protestant, Catholic, Unionist or nationalist, deserve a chance to
:14:42. > :14:47.move ahead, but when you talk to me about the Protestant people are
:14:47. > :14:51.disadvantaged, it is not that I don't believe you, I know that
:14:51. > :14:58.Protestant working-class people are disadvantaged, but if you take the
:14:58. > :15:08.top 20 wards of disadvantage on the statistics, 36 of the 40 wards are
:15:08. > :15:23.
:15:23. > :15:28.It does not stand any more. second. One second. Listen, for
:15:28. > :15:32.this programmed to work tonight, you have to respect me and let me
:15:32. > :15:41.share. There is a gentleman at the back with his hand up. Go-ahead,
:15:41. > :15:48.Sir. You are happy to talk about equality. Why after advice from the
:15:48. > :15:54.equality commission did Sinn Fein and name a children's playground
:15:55. > :15:59.after a member of the IRA? How do you feel about that? How do you
:16:00. > :16:03.feel when you are being asked to compromise with the nationalist
:16:03. > :16:09.community and Sinn Fein? The very fact that anyone would want to call
:16:09. > :16:19.a children's park after a terrorist sickens me to my Ghat, and forgery
:16:19. > :16:24.
:16:24. > :16:34.to sit there -- to my guts. At the jury to sit there -- and Ford Gerry
:16:34. > :16:35.
:16:35. > :16:39.to sit there and talk about equality, he should be ashamed.
:16:39. > :16:44.Republicans and nationalists have looked upon British soldiers and
:16:44. > :16:51.the RUC and others in the same way you look upon the IRA. Do you
:16:51. > :16:58.understand that? The difficulty he it is the debate over the last six
:16:58. > :17:04.weeks has been around Britishness. You are forgetting about Irish
:17:04. > :17:14.nurse. As we sit here in Northern Ireland today, 95 % of all the
:17:14. > :17:18.
:17:18. > :17:22.arguments are about Britishness. Gerry, it is a specific question.
:17:23. > :17:29.If Sinn Fein has tapped into the sensitivities of Northern Ireland,
:17:29. > :17:34.then you know naming a children's play park after a terrorist is
:17:34. > :17:44.sensitive. And then some of these people have to sit and listen to E
:17:44. > :17:50.
:17:50. > :17:59.u use the word equality. -- and listen to you use the word equality.
:17:59. > :18:09.It's just swings and roundabouts! If I go to loyalist areas...
:18:09. > :18:19.
:18:19. > :18:27.him answer. If you go through... The park was named after Raymond
:18:27. > :18:31.because he is seen as a hero. He died for his country. You may not
:18:31. > :18:36.look at it from that point of view, but you need to understand that
:18:36. > :18:46.people died for the try colour as well. People died for a united
:18:46. > :18:52.Ireland. One-second. Look, again, let me make this clear. I want to
:18:52. > :19:01.get as many of you in as possible. If you shout at me, I am not going
:19:01. > :19:06.to come anywhere near you. Jeffrey Donaldson, there is clearly a
:19:06. > :19:10.disconnect where people in a working-class loyalist areas feel
:19:10. > :19:13.they you and your party are not representing them any more. That
:19:13. > :19:17.you don't understand their frustration and anger and that you
:19:17. > :19:26.are working with Sinn Fein now. It is easy for you guys and you have
:19:26. > :19:32.left them behind. Do you at least acknowledge they feel like that?
:19:32. > :19:36.wish working with Sinn Fein was easy. It isn't. We have a mandate
:19:36. > :19:42.for where we are today. We stood for election. We have been put
:19:42. > :19:49.forward on the basis of the stance we have taken. In East Belfast, the
:19:49. > :19:59.most recent election, which was just over a year ago. -- a year ago,
:19:59. > :20:01.
:20:01. > :20:08.the UUP was the largest party. As for being disconnected. --
:20:08. > :20:16.disconnected, come and have a look at the work I am doing. I am
:20:16. > :20:21.tackling issues like social deprivation, education or under
:20:21. > :20:28.achievement. Look at the Sure Start scheme we started... So they have
:20:28. > :20:32.got it wrong? That is not why they are on the streets protesting. Jim
:20:32. > :20:38.and Jamie have highlighted the kind of issues people are angry about
:20:38. > :20:41.and we need to understand this. The peace process I signed up to, we
:20:41. > :20:47.were told for many years we couldn't have majority will in
:20:47. > :20:51.Northern Ireland, it had to be about consensus politics. David
:20:51. > :21:01.Ford's political career has been built on the notion of consensus
:21:01. > :21:05.politics. What did we get from Belfast City Hall? Nothing. There
:21:05. > :21:14.was not a single Unionist councillor who voted for the
:21:14. > :21:24.decision to take the flag down. Use burned the Union -- UWE spurned the
:21:24. > :21:31.Unionist community. The equality impact assessment that was carried
:21:31. > :21:35.out by Belfast City Council, 95 % of the people who responded said
:21:35. > :21:41.they did not want to change the flag situation on Belfast City Hall,
:21:41. > :21:51.yet you ignore that. David, with respect, the decision in City Hall
:21:51. > :21:52.
:21:52. > :21:56.was about going back to the bad old days of one-sided politics.
:21:56. > :22:03.equality impact assessment is not about adding up numbers. It is
:22:03. > :22:08.about the real issues of equality. A petition was collected on the day
:22:08. > :22:14.of the covenant parade. The key issue is that nationalists proposed
:22:14. > :22:18.the removal of the Union flag completely. Alliance on the basis
:22:18. > :22:25.of equality advice, which is applied to other councils, and the
:22:25. > :22:35.same advice that was accepted by DUP members in Lisburn... That is
:22:35. > :22:41.
:22:41. > :22:51.not true, David. The flag was changed in Lisburn before and the
:22:51. > :22:58.quality assessment. Let us get our facts right. When Liz then City
:22:58. > :23:08.Council decided to Flybe flag on designated days, two MLAs were
:23:08. > :23:11.
:23:11. > :23:17.members of the council and they did not vote against it. You need to
:23:17. > :23:27.check your facts. We were the only party on the council who voted
:23:27. > :23:32.
:23:32. > :23:36.baulk the flag to be flown 365 days a year. -- for the flag. Do you
:23:36. > :23:45.stand over the way your party voted? Look at what has happened.
:23:45. > :23:55.They at us go back to Belfast. Nationalists oppose the removal of
:23:55. > :23:57.
:23:57. > :24:04.the Union flag completely. The Alliance put forward an amendment
:24:04. > :24:11.to the Nationalist motion and that was agreed as the balance proposal.
:24:11. > :24:16.What do you read out of what has, when you see the protesters
:24:16. > :24:21.standing in front of City Hall and the message they are sending you,
:24:21. > :24:26.do you learn anything from that? learned we are a divided society
:24:26. > :24:33.and we have difficult issues to face. I also know that there are
:24:33. > :24:36.more nationalist councils then Unionist. In the context of that,
:24:37. > :24:44.the Alliance proposal for the designated day was the right
:24:44. > :24:48.balance recognition. They love vast -- Belfast is within the United
:24:48. > :24:58.Kingdom, but it is a divided city. When you talk about what happened
:24:58. > :25:05.
:25:05. > :25:15.as a result... OK let's move on. Chris, what is your assessment?
:25:15. > :25:23.
:25:23. > :25:33.existence of the flag protest shows... It is about consensus.
:25:33. > :25:39.
:25:39. > :25:49.let him make his point. It is about consensus. Geoffrey seems to be
:25:49. > :25:54.
:25:54. > :26:00.playing to the gallery tonight. In 2002, they built two new bridges.
:26:00. > :26:07.In 2006 they gave land away so that a DUP monument could be built there.
:26:07. > :26:13.How does that reach out to be nationalists? In Lisburn, you have
:26:13. > :26:20.never had a Sinn Fein Lord Mayor, yet in every single council there
:26:21. > :26:24.has been Unionist mares because of power-sharing. If you are talking
:26:24. > :26:31.about a shared future and equality, what you need to do is talk to
:26:31. > :26:36.people like Jim because until you send a consistent message to these
:26:36. > :26:46.people, you will get people who believe they can take us back to
:26:46. > :26:48.
:26:48. > :26:53.the days of old. You talk about the Stormont days of old. It was about
:26:53. > :27:01.majority rule. What did we get on Belfast City Council? Are you going
:27:01. > :27:06.to let me speak? Let in reply. got majority will at city hall. You
:27:06. > :27:16.talk about the Good Friday Agreement. With respect, I have
:27:16. > :27:23.
:27:23. > :27:33.tried to encourage people to. What did we get? Meyer identity was
:27:33. > :27:34.
:27:34. > :27:42.beaten into the ground by the nationalists. That is not a shared
:27:42. > :27:52.future. That is not consensus. Colin Met Devitt from the SDLP. You
:27:52. > :27:53.
:27:53. > :27:59.wanted to take be blown down completely, didn't you -- to take
:27:59. > :28:04.the flag down completely, didn't you? The majority of people do not
:28:04. > :28:08.want to live in this kind of environment. The people in Northern
:28:08. > :28:13.Ireland want to look beyond the talk we have reduced ourselves too.
:28:13. > :28:17.This does not represent the future of Northern Ireland. If anyone
:28:17. > :28:27.thinks they can build a political career out of this might get a
:28:27. > :28:32.
:28:32. > :28:37.surprise. The way we will move forward... You don't believe in the
:28:37. > :28:41.right to peaceful protests? We do not have peaceful protests. There
:28:41. > :28:46.are genuine people out on the streets to believe in peaceful
:28:46. > :28:51.protests. There are people involved in violence, but you cannot
:28:51. > :28:58.generalise like that. We are making headlines around the world. There
:28:58. > :29:02.are investors leaving. There are people who wanted to come here and
:29:02. > :29:07.now they are saying no because of the way people have chosen to abuse
:29:07. > :29:15.their right to protest and bring violence onto the streets. You
:29:15. > :29:18.asked me about City Hall. We believe simply, and there is no
:29:19. > :29:27.threat to anyone's identity or Irish and us, we believe that when
:29:27. > :29:37.you have civic places, places that belonged to everyone, there should
:29:37. > :29:49.
:29:49. > :29:57.either be no flags or a shared flag I get paid to represent the people
:29:57. > :30:02.elect me. You get paid by the British Government a! Brother
:30:02. > :30:07.people look at the money in your pocket? The people who let me, can
:30:07. > :30:11.I answer this question? The people who elect me might be British or
:30:11. > :30:18.Irish overnight say that they are Northern Irish and are not
:30:18. > :30:25.interested in that but they are the people I represent, under I do not
:30:25. > :30:29.the present them to... I want to try and collect as many voices from
:30:29. > :30:35.the audience speak as possible. There is a young man in the very
:30:35. > :30:38.front row. Just wait until we get the camera to you. The point that
:30:38. > :30:43.you said, people fought and died for the tricolour, I agree with
:30:43. > :30:47.that, whether the cause is right or wrong that is not for me to say,
:30:47. > :30:57.but people fought and died for the Union Flag and are still fighting
:30:57. > :30:57.
:30:57. > :31:03.and dying for the Union Flag. Please don't interrupt me, you told
:31:03. > :31:08.me you would not interrupt me. Please don't interrupt me, I am
:31:08. > :31:12.talking. Tell him why the flag is so important for you? Because
:31:12. > :31:17.people are still fighting and dying for that flag, the match should not
:31:17. > :31:27.be dying for that flag any more, you were a terraced, you fully
:31:27. > :31:32.
:31:32. > :31:38.You will ask, but I want to hear a little bit more from you. When you
:31:38. > :31:43.say that people have fought and died for that flak, how all do you?
:31:43. > :31:47.20. What is important to you about Northern Ireland in terms of your
:31:47. > :31:53.identity, what is it in your gut about what is important in your
:31:53. > :31:58.life? It is British. In Scotland they do not get their flag removed,
:31:58. > :32:07.they fly the tricolour in Dublin, why? Because it is the Irish like.
:32:07. > :32:14.That is the British flag, and you have taken it down! How dare you!
:32:14. > :32:21.You should be ashamed of yourself. He is not a traitor. Listen to what
:32:21. > :32:25.he has got to say. I have to put this back to you. You have a
:32:25. > :32:34.particular version of your Britishness, and I accept it. Just
:32:34. > :32:39.let me finish. I accept your Britishness. You will not be happy,
:32:39. > :32:43.Sinn Fein will not be happy until the tricolour flies above City all.
:32:43. > :32:47.He have asked question, so let me finish. You believe in the
:32:47. > :32:53.Britishness, I believe and my ambitious, we are in a part of
:32:53. > :33:00.Ireland, or from your point of view, you are in the UK jurisdiction,
:33:00. > :33:05.fair enough, but that is precisely the point. This is a contested area,
:33:05. > :33:10.I want a united Ireland. I will continue to struggle for a united
:33:10. > :33:16.Ireland. That is OK, but I have been very upfront about it. People
:33:16. > :33:20.are let me on the basis of that analysis. You, not you personally,
:33:20. > :33:26.but politicians and others need to try and put themselves, as I have
:33:26. > :33:32.tried to put myself in your shoes, you have to try and put yourself in
:33:32. > :33:38.issues of nationalists. I 1 never put myself in Nationalist
:33:38. > :33:43.Republican issues, never, never! What is not being talked about by
:33:43. > :33:49.Jeffrey Donaldson of the audience tonight is, how do you respect and
:33:49. > :33:59.reach out to nationalists and republicans? Because you demand
:33:59. > :34:03.that I do it, but it has to be both ways. Answer me this then, please.
:34:03. > :34:09.Where is Michael Dean tonight? You are a prominent businessman in
:34:09. > :34:13.Northern Ireland. Give me your sense. You have had a good say, we
:34:13. > :34:20.will come back to more people in the audience, but, for goodness
:34:20. > :34:26.sake, do not try to hijack the show. Michael Dean, your assessment of
:34:26. > :34:31.what is happening to the economy in Northern Ireland. By see Belfast as
:34:31. > :34:35.a city without a rudder, if I can make that first point. Talking
:34:36. > :34:40.about the City Council, what it has brought to lost the door, it is
:34:40. > :34:45.ridiculous that decision with the flak, since 3rd December going
:34:45. > :34:51.forward, the economic doom and gloom that we have is a numbers
:34:51. > :34:56.game. I do not think the leadership knows anything about numbers, they
:34:56. > :35:03.do not know how to add this up. The tit-for-tat politics will obviously
:35:03. > :35:08.go on for ever. We, as a business community, are very disturbed. We
:35:08. > :35:13.do not know the way forward. We spent some time yesterday with the
:35:13. > :35:20.Lord mayor at the City Hall. Is it really at a critical level? Beyond
:35:20. > :35:26.the recession? Is it happened -- having a direct impact on business?
:35:26. > :35:30.Will people lose jobs? The comments of Mr Wilson help me yesterday, the
:35:30. > :35:39.recession is nothing to do with this. Most businesses are down
:35:39. > :35:43.between 30-50%. We're having to lay people off. It is sad. I pill sorry
:35:43. > :35:48.for Northern Ireland, for all these guys here tonight, of a Protestant
:35:48. > :35:51.background, Catholic background, whatever, but we are living in a
:35:51. > :35:57.black hole. I have been disappointed with the leadership of
:35:57. > :36:01.City Hall over this. You say that you love Northern Ireland. How do
:36:01. > :36:07.you feel when you hear a businessman telling you how badly
:36:07. > :36:11.this is damaging trade? Nobody set out to sea damage businesses with
:36:11. > :36:17.these protests. Sinn Fein, aided and abetted with the Alliance,
:36:17. > :36:23.brought this issue up, not the protesters. The protesters will not
:36:23. > :36:31.be held to answer by anybody. We have a peaceful right to protest
:36:31. > :36:36.and we will continue to do that. do about the economy? This man
:36:36. > :36:40.referred to the political class and said that we need to be educated.
:36:40. > :36:44.See the notion that young Protestants need to be educated? We
:36:44. > :36:48.are educated over this and we will be moving forward and we will be
:36:48. > :36:58.challenging these things. So, journey, C in the next 10 years?
:36:58. > :37:02.You will be challenged. It will not be Gerry or me that you're taking
:37:02. > :37:07.votes off, it'll be this man here, if you are going to pick a fight
:37:07. > :37:16.that this winter when you votes, it will be their votes. -- that is
:37:16. > :37:19.going to win you votes. They might have made the biggest political
:37:19. > :37:23.mistake of their lives, the Alliance Party. All of their
:37:23. > :37:28.councillor set in Unionist areas, and you will have made the biggest
:37:28. > :37:38.political mistake of your lives. We have supporters who have told me,
:37:38. > :37:40.
:37:40. > :37:45.never again. David Ford? Let us be realistic about what happened and
:37:45. > :37:50.the language that Jeffrey Donaldson used about rights being trampled on,
:37:50. > :37:53.these comments are simply not true. I do not see how flying the flag
:37:53. > :37:58.respect Leigh on City Hall on a certain number of designated days
:37:58. > :38:02.is trampling on anybody's rights. It is a recognition of the reality
:38:02. > :38:07.of a divided city. But what has been said by Joan has put his
:38:07. > :38:17.finger on it, because this is about what happened when nearly along one
:38:17. > :38:19.
:38:19. > :38:23.the Westminster seat. -- Naomi Long won the seat. That is why we saw
:38:23. > :38:31.40,000 bogus leaflets targeting how, and she is not a city councillor,
:38:31. > :38:35.she has been elected to Westminster. This is about height intentions by
:38:35. > :38:41.PUP and Ulster Unionist politicians who did not admit it until they
:38:41. > :38:48.were caught on camera. How does this impinge on anyone's rights
:38:48. > :38:54.when a flagpole flies enough like, on any a of the year? The Equality
:38:54. > :39:01.Commission is clear, David, and I have read it, and you should read
:39:01. > :39:05.it as well. It is not contrary to equality policy to fly the national
:39:05. > :39:15.flag on a civic building. That is what the caller the commission has
:39:15. > :39:16.
:39:16. > :39:25.said. As for East Belfast, let me remind you that, in the 2011
:39:25. > :39:30.Assembly election, one year after Naomi Long was elected, the DUP got
:39:30. > :39:35.44% of the vote, the Alliance Party got 26%. You are deluding yourself.
:39:35. > :39:39.If you think we need to deliver leaflets to win back east Belfast...
:39:39. > :39:46.This is about respect for both sides of the community, David, and
:39:46. > :39:51.it is time that belies party learnt that. I want to talk about violence
:39:51. > :39:57.in the Short Strand area, as well. Tell me what happened to you. What
:39:57. > :40:00.did you see? I represent the Catholic community in the Short
:40:00. > :40:05.Strand, I represent the Church, and I speak for it. On Monday an 80 I
:40:05. > :40:10.was at work and I got a phone call just before 7:15pm that it was an
:40:10. > :40:14.incident outside the church. I was outside the church within 30
:40:15. > :40:21.seconds of getting that phone call. When I arrived there, I knew that
:40:21. > :40:26.there was a special-needs report children in the hall -- group of
:40:27. > :40:36.children. And I saw a group of loyalists on the Newtonards Road,
:40:37. > :40:42.petrol bombing the front of the Church, throwing petrol bombs over
:40:42. > :40:47.into Strand Walk and St Matthew's Court. I have listened. You're
:40:47. > :40:52.talking about equality here. Have democratic vote was taken at this
:40:52. > :40:56.the council to have designated days were flying the flag. I want to let
:40:56. > :41:00.the people on the Newtonards road know that it was not the people at
:41:00. > :41:08.St Matthew's Parish that that that, and they want to ask them why they
:41:08. > :41:14.have been attacking our church, as they did, and, if he has any
:41:14. > :41:18.influence in the Newtonards Road, I believe that a way to stop all of
:41:18. > :41:24.this interface problem is to remove the protests away from the
:41:24. > :41:29.interface. We have had 16 illegal parades around the area, and most
:41:29. > :41:39.of these parades and the City have been peaceful, the majority have
:41:39. > :41:39.
:41:39. > :41:45.caused violence on my community. That brings us on to the territory
:41:45. > :41:50.of, how do we get out of this? How do we reach agreement for all of us
:41:50. > :41:57.in this country to try to bring an end to this, to calm the situation
:41:57. > :42:03.down, to remove the tension, so that we're compromising with each
:42:03. > :42:13.other, so that we're living in a country where we're all safe. What
:42:13. > :42:13.
:42:13. > :42:18.do you think? What needs to happen in terms of political leadership?
:42:18. > :42:23.But some councils fly on designated days, and he's including Lisburn,
:42:24. > :42:28.Craigavon, and Gannon, Arona, some councils are more strongly
:42:28. > :42:33.nationalist to do not fly the flag, most of the Unionist ones fly it
:42:33. > :42:37.every day. Basil McRea suggested one flak policy for the whole of
:42:37. > :42:40.Northern Ireland, he suggested designated days, same you mights
:42:40. > :42:46.were of what you are, and they think that is worth thinking about,
:42:46. > :42:50.I think that these guys should top. The other thing we need to talk
:42:50. > :42:56.about is having an agreed flag for Northern Ireland that both
:42:56. > :43:00.communities can accept and we need to fly that every day. It is
:43:00. > :43:07.disgraceful what is going on. These people are not Democrats. They
:43:07. > :43:11.shout down everybody. Mike point is, these people are talking about
:43:11. > :43:21.democracy and as soon as anybody says anything that this agrees with
:43:21. > :43:21.
:43:21. > :43:31.them, they shout them down and back them, and that is not democracy.
:43:31. > :43:47.
:43:47. > :43:57.Why does the Church keep being attacked? Can you be quicker?
:43:57. > :44:05.cent Matthew's church we have CCTV. I can prove what has happened. Not
:44:05. > :44:12.one incident or one stone has come out of St Matthew's Church. That is
:44:12. > :44:18.not true. He says not one thing has come out of the chapel, well I'm
:44:18. > :44:28.from Newtownards Road. But other night they were throwing petrol
:44:28. > :44:28.
:44:28. > :44:36.bombs, stones, everything. The PSNI stood there and did nothing. So can
:44:36. > :44:42.grow. This is not just the flag issue. It has come at the end of
:44:42. > :44:51.the process. People are feeling let down by their politicians. It is
:44:51. > :45:01.understandable why the feeling is coming across. A 24th January,
:45:01. > :45:02.
:45:02. > :45:12.there is a Bill been debated for people to vote at 16. We need to
:45:12. > :45:12.
:45:12. > :45:20.get ready for this. Jeffrey Donaldson, where is the First
:45:20. > :45:30.Minister and Deputy First Minister standing together, trying to sort
:45:30. > :45:31.
:45:31. > :45:38.the situation now? Who has said no? The leaders of all the parties had
:45:38. > :45:42.been a meeting at Stormont. They need to stand in front of this
:45:42. > :45:47.community and say, or we will come up with a compromise on the up for
:45:47. > :45:56.this country. Why has it a happened? It is a pity it did not
:45:56. > :46:00.happen before Belfast City Council took the decision they did.
:46:00. > :46:04.does it have to be behind the scenes? In it is not behind the
:46:04. > :46:12.scenes and you know well Peter Robinson is meeting regularly with
:46:12. > :46:16.all of the parties, including Sinn Fein at Stormont. We just can't see
:46:16. > :46:25.Peter Martin standing together? will not solve the problem and if
:46:25. > :46:29.you think well, you're wrong. Gerry talks about the need for agreement.
:46:29. > :46:35.We have set up groups at Stormont to look at these issues, but why
:46:35. > :46:40.are we doing that now? Surely consensus politics, and that is
:46:40. > :46:44.what I should up to. I want the violence to stop, I want and
:46:44. > :46:49.Northern Ireland that is peaceful. When people talk about leadership,
:46:49. > :46:59.I would like to see more leadership on the national side to bring the
:46:59. > :46:59.
:46:59. > :47:06.distant violence to an end. -- dissident violence to an end.
:47:06. > :47:15.Another man has been shot this evening. I want agreement in
:47:15. > :47:20.Northern Ireland. Alright. Thank you. He knows beat dissidents hate
:47:20. > :47:27.me more than they hate him. I am the one who is out every time there
:47:28. > :47:37.is an incident. I take public meetings and take on people who
:47:38. > :47:39.
:47:39. > :47:49.look upon themselves as dissidents. There is no problem... No! Let us
:47:49. > :47:51.
:47:51. > :47:55.control this. Martin McGuinness has been trying to get the First
:47:55. > :48:00.Minister and Deputy First Minister to come out. He did show leadership.
:48:00. > :48:04.Specific question - are you saying Martin McGuinness has asked to
:48:04. > :48:14.stands shoulder to shoulder with Peter Robinson and he has refused?
:48:14. > :48:15.
:48:15. > :48:22.A well, he has asked and it has not happened. He has asked who? He has
:48:22. > :48:26.asked Peter Robinson. As I love to come down here, there was a meeting
:48:26. > :48:32.going on. That is what Martin McGuinness was trying to do.
:48:32. > :48:41.Publicly, he has said what we need is a unified front, but I agree
:48:41. > :48:47.with you. It needs to be seen. will have to continue this debate
:48:47. > :48:52.on the radio. I would do my best and I am sure others will do their
:48:52. > :48:57.best to give you a voice, and please use the platforms that you
:48:57. > :49:06.have to have your voice heard and let us do it democratically. Ladies
:49:06. > :49:10.and gentlemen, please thank our panel tonight. Now, just before we
:49:10. > :49:20.do move on, here is a quick reminder of how you can get in
:49:20. > :49:39.
:49:39. > :49:49.Here is what is happening. Do you know what I want to do tonight? I
:49:49. > :49:50.
:49:50. > :49:57.want to talk to someone who donated a kidney to try to save someone
:49:57. > :50:02.else's life. I want to bring you that story, so let me do it. Now,
:50:02. > :50:08.most of us are stretched to lending Our friends a few pounds, but what
:50:08. > :50:18.about donating an organ. My next two guests have an unbelievable
:50:18. > :50:29.
:50:29. > :50:37.Bond. Give them a round of applause. Hello there. Good to see. we only
:50:37. > :50:42.have nine minutes left. Can you just give me a sense, as we cut to
:50:42. > :50:52.beat Chase, Shane give me a sense of where it began with you? For me,
:50:52. > :50:59.
:50:59. > :51:07.it began coaching sport. Jo does the same. We always seem to work
:51:07. > :51:12.together and I didn't even know he knew I had renal failure. He said
:51:12. > :51:18.to me, I believe you need a kidney. I will give you one. That was the
:51:18. > :51:24.start of the process. Why would you do that? It is a nice thing to
:51:24. > :51:29.think about, but to actually do it, to give an organ out of your body.
:51:29. > :51:39.He was not your best mate. What would you do that? I have got to
:51:39. > :51:39.
:51:39. > :51:46.know him very well since. I have five children, he has young
:51:46. > :51:51.children as well. I was conscious you only needed one kidney. I
:51:51. > :51:57.didn't know much about it, but I could see it would make a
:51:57. > :52:05.difference to his life if it succeeded. 90 percent of these
:52:05. > :52:12.living donor transplants actually work. It is a small sacrifice.
:52:12. > :52:17.is not, it is amazing. circumstances came together, you
:52:17. > :52:26.have to understand that. For a small sacrifice, to see someone
:52:26. > :52:33.else being given life and his children having that advantage, I
:52:33. > :52:38.just thought it was a good idea. must have crossed your mind, what
:52:38. > :52:43.if someone from your flesh and blood, one of your family needed a
:52:43. > :52:48.kidney and you had given it to someone outside of your family.
:52:49. > :52:55.have five children said they could... It is an unlikely
:52:55. > :53:01.eventuality. It was just a moment in your life where you think, you
:53:01. > :53:09.can do something here. The process is fascinating. It was a voyage of
:53:09. > :53:11.discovery for me. Obviously, it was bitterly disappointing,
:53:11. > :53:17.particularly from shames perspective because everyone was so
:53:17. > :53:21.optimistic about it and it was disappointing that it failed. But I
:53:21. > :53:26.it would do it again tomorrow because it is an amazing life
:53:26. > :53:31.experience. During the majority of the programme tonight there has
:53:31. > :53:35.been a lot of tension and we have been teasing it out with each other
:53:35. > :53:40.as to how much are we prepared to compromise and what I'll be
:53:40. > :53:43.prepared to do as human beings in terms of understanding on not
:53:43. > :53:49.understanding someone else. What does it actually mean when someone
:53:49. > :53:54.is as gracious as that? What does it feel like one another a human
:53:54. > :53:58.being does that? Myself and my bike for talking about this last night,
:53:58. > :54:05.tried to find the superlatives for the words. You just cannot find
:54:05. > :54:09.them. Compassion, empathy, it is not enough. It is incredible. My
:54:09. > :54:14.situation was there was a potential for a transplant with my sister,
:54:15. > :54:20.but that fell through. Joe just stepped onto the plate, totally out
:54:20. > :54:26.of the blue. It was incredible, truly, truly incredible. It felt
:54:26. > :54:30.very special. It is important to say, and an air people think of
:54:30. > :54:38.this enormous thing and it does take a few months out of your life,
:54:38. > :54:42.but whenever I was out there in London, I met some amazing people.
:54:42. > :54:47.The 40-year-old man who donated a kidney to his two-year-old daughter
:54:48. > :54:54.and within two days she was walking out of the unit. So, it is not
:54:54. > :54:58.unique. At 20-year-old man donated to his 50-year-old father. The
:54:58. > :55:03.people who are living donors, they all wore on air for the rest of
:55:03. > :55:07.their lives because they have saved someone's life. Initially, the
:55:07. > :55:13.transplant was successful. What has happened after that. It was
:55:13. > :55:18.successful for a number of days and then after a few days one of the
:55:18. > :55:22.doctors came in and my results started to taper off. After that,
:55:22. > :55:32.it was a process of investigating what the problem was. That went on
:55:32. > :55:42.for a period of time. They opened me up and realised things were
:55:42. > :55:43.
:55:43. > :55:48.wrong. We did have an incredible high, an incredible bond. But then
:55:48. > :55:55.there was a low. Not just for myself, but for Joe in terms of the
:55:55. > :56:03.sacrifice he had made. What happens now? Listen, I am a strong
:56:03. > :56:09.character. I am back at work. I do diocese at home three nights a week.
:56:09. > :56:13.It is a better family life. In one sense, there has been and
:56:13. > :56:21.improvement, but hopefully I am looking to have another transplant.
:56:21. > :56:26.So you need someone else to donate? Yes, possibly, or get a transplant
:56:26. > :56:35.to the donor system. Did you feel a sense of loss when it didn't work?
:56:35. > :56:41.Of course. It is a deeper experience. Nothing can be Perec
:56:41. > :56:51.for -- nothing can prepare you for it. You just have to roll with the
:56:51. > :56:53.
:56:53. > :56:59.punches. We had beds beside each other in hospital. That is what you
:56:59. > :57:09.they -- that is what they do with donor and recipient. Every day he
:57:09. > :57:12.
:57:12. > :57:21.was getting better. He passed urine for the first time in six years.
:57:21. > :57:26.You noticed he does not drink water. That is because his fluid
:57:26. > :57:36.circulates in his bloodstream. That is why he has to have dialysis. The
:57:36. > :57:43.
:57:43. > :57:49.thing is, if everyone went on the donor register, it would be
:57:49. > :57:54.fantastic. We were in the unit for 10 days and we saw about 10 people
:57:54. > :58:04.just get a call at the last minute. Some family had decided to allow
:58:04. > :58:09.
:58:09. > :58:18.their teenage sons organs to be used. People were given life. The
:58:19. > :58:26.kidneys were coming in in Marks & Spencer freezer boxes. 10 % of
:58:26. > :58:33.people die on the waiting list. Those who have received a
:58:33. > :58:40.transplant left within a few days full of life. It really has been a
:58:40. > :58:49.life-changing experience. It has clearly profoundly affected you.
:58:49. > :58:58.has. I am adjusting to whip. Of course, it would be different if it
:58:58. > :59:08.had worked. Can I do so. You so much for coming onto the programme
:59:08. > :59:11.