:00:07. > :00:10.Policing the flag protests - and a new development tonight with a
:00:10. > :00:12.shift in loyalist tactics. The man told to leave one of
:00:12. > :00:22.Northern Ireland's best known establishments because of his
:00:22. > :00:23.
:00:23. > :00:26.tattoo fights back. What did I say on the radio? And I
:00:26. > :00:36.meet the four-year-old whose battle with cancer has captured the hearts
:00:36. > :01:01.
:01:01. > :01:08.of the Northern Ireland public. Wee Are you ready for a big show
:01:08. > :01:18.tonight? We have got one for you! Police stay with us. We want you to
:01:18. > :01:38.
:01:38. > :01:41.Tonight, we are looking at the policing of the flag protests, both
:01:41. > :01:45.in terms of what has happened and how the PSNI will deal with them in
:01:45. > :01:50.the future. And then of course, there is the marching season coming
:01:50. > :01:55.soon. We'll be discussing this with some of our senior politicians in a
:01:55. > :01:58.moment. But first, there's been a development tonight. The Ulster
:01:58. > :02:01.Peoples Forum has been at the heart of this controversy, and it has
:02:01. > :02:05.announced a change in tactics, a shift away from blocking roads to
:02:05. > :02:08.what it calls white line protests. I've been speaking to Jamie Bryson
:02:09. > :02:16.from the Ulster Peoples Forum and asked him what this new phase is
:02:16. > :02:23.all about. What we're doing is, there have been called from the
:02:23. > :02:28.people on the ground for leadership, so what the Ulster Peoples Forum is
:02:28. > :02:32.trying to do is provide that leadership. We claim to speak for
:02:32. > :02:38.the protesters who we have a consensus, that is the way to move
:02:38. > :02:44.forward. We does it mean, white line protests? It is protesting
:02:44. > :02:49.along the white line in the middle of the road, doing whatever you can
:02:49. > :02:54.get your message across. Suggesting? Are you going to be
:02:54. > :02:57.telling me next week, we suggested it, we don't speak for all the
:02:57. > :03:02.people, roads are still being blocked. There are certainly not,
:03:02. > :03:06.but I'm not in a position to tell anybody anything. The protests
:03:06. > :03:10.belong to the people. They feel the white line protest is the way to
:03:10. > :03:13.move forward. However some protesters do not feel that is the
:03:13. > :03:20.way to move forward, as long as they protest peacefully we will
:03:20. > :03:25.support them. That his leadership, isn't it? So please protest in the
:03:25. > :03:30.middle of the road but if you are going to do anything else, we will
:03:30. > :03:33.not condemn you? Be a man, for goodness sake and have a position
:03:33. > :03:38.and tell people you will condemn them if you don't stick to that.
:03:38. > :03:41.will not be condemning anybody come I'm not a dictator. De Ulster
:03:41. > :03:46.Peoples Forum is trying to stroll in leadership, if people follow us
:03:46. > :03:51.that is well and good, I am in no position to dictate to people as to
:03:51. > :03:57.how they can protest. Why are you not saying it is wrong to protest
:03:57. > :04:02.in any way except these white wine protests? The protests have been
:04:02. > :04:08.ongoing for some time, we have supported peaceful protests, so why
:04:08. > :04:12.would we say it is wrong to protest peacefully? May be people do not
:04:12. > :04:14.want to tolerate the road to being blocked any more, they are not good
:04:14. > :04:19.to tolerate their lives being disrupted because of a handful of
:04:19. > :04:28.people. We have been clear that we protest peaceful protest as long as
:04:28. > :04:33.there are no acts of violence, and nobody is threatened. What is this
:04:33. > :04:36.in a statement that the new phase will include localised protest
:04:36. > :04:40.outside council offices to coincide with monthly meetings in each
:04:40. > :04:44.respective area. You are going to bring these protests to
:04:44. > :04:48.democratically elected people? we have said on the show many times,
:04:48. > :04:53.we have a right to hold democratically-elected politicians
:04:53. > :04:57.to account. We feel the politicians have failed us, this was a
:04:57. > :05:05.democratic decision, so what we are doing is bringing how protest to
:05:05. > :05:08.the council to. To council offices? Ear, the monthly meetings. To
:05:08. > :05:16.democratically elected officers? All have a right to hold them to
:05:16. > :05:20.account and that is what we will do. You tried to be won't last time.
:05:20. > :05:26.There are more hairs on my big toe then you got bodes. Not only are
:05:26. > :05:31.you a nonentity, Hugh Laurie confirmed a nonentity. Who are due
:05:31. > :05:36.to try holding democratically- elected person to account? Frankly,
:05:36. > :05:38.the essence of any democracy is the ordinary person on the street can
:05:38. > :05:42.hold democratically-elected representatives to account. But
:05:42. > :05:46.this is not about me and what I have done personally, I'm only here
:05:46. > :05:56.to articulate the views of the Ulster Peoples Forum. You are
:05:56. > :06:00.poster boy for the Ulster Peoples Forum. A poster boy! Interesting.
:06:00. > :06:06.After pondering the issue, you are saying that you have decided you
:06:06. > :06:11.have only one demand. So you are issuing demands. On my personal
:06:11. > :06:18.Facebook page. For personal -- petition to get thousands of boats
:06:18. > :06:23.and Abby Mann Date -- a mandate from the people, what are you
:06:23. > :06:28.asking. That Peter Robinson resigned his seat, forcing an
:06:28. > :06:34.election. Who do you think you are? I will tell you who I think I am. I
:06:34. > :06:37.am a citizen of this country who has a right to express my own
:06:37. > :06:42.personal political opinion at any time I choose as long as I'm not
:06:42. > :06:46.inciting violence. I was expressing my own personal opinion, which
:06:47. > :06:52.doesn't always reflect the views of the Ulster Peoples Forum. Is that
:06:52. > :06:57.the position of the Ulster Peoples Forum? That is not. Their position
:06:57. > :07:02.you can see clearly on the statement. What are you hoping to
:07:02. > :07:08.achieve by continuing with this new phase. What do you want out of
:07:08. > :07:13.this? We have seen a positive aspects, we are having meetings,
:07:13. > :07:17.the start at about Sinn Fein chipping away at our culture and
:07:17. > :07:20.Our Identity, so what we have attempted to do is provide a
:07:20. > :07:25.platform so people can express their views through the Ulster
:07:25. > :07:30.Peoples Forum, so there can be an endgame strategy as to how we can
:07:30. > :07:35.fight for our culture, identity, our British identity, in a peaceful
:07:35. > :07:39.way. Because it hasn't always been peaceful, which you are pleased
:07:39. > :07:43.concede you have damaged your own image, the Ulster Peoples Forum,
:07:43. > :07:46.you would concede that there are good, decent people from the
:07:46. > :07:52.loyalist community that are really, really angry that they see violence
:07:52. > :07:55.on the streets, cars being blacked out, that their police force is
:07:56. > :08:01.being attacked, would you can see their role could loyalist people
:08:01. > :08:06.who would think like that? What we are said from the start is that of
:08:06. > :08:10.violent doesn't send out a message, we have encouraged peaceful protest.
:08:10. > :08:14.We have never encouraged anybody to engage in violence. I'm not going
:08:14. > :08:19.to speak out on those people. would condemn anybody who has
:08:19. > :08:23.attacked the police? I do. I have said that violence does not serve
:08:23. > :08:28.any purpose in this case, does not get our message across and does not
:08:28. > :08:31.help. That is why I have said peaceful protest is the way to go
:08:31. > :08:36.and encouraged young people to get him bought in politics and that is
:08:36. > :08:42.the way we can move things forward. What you have in return for this,
:08:42. > :08:47.has there been a deal done? I had to be clear, they run a tent across
:08:47. > :08:53.the board to discredit the loyalist people. -- there are attempts. To
:08:53. > :08:56.discredit people like ourselves who were our spokesperson for the
:08:56. > :09:01.Ulster Peoples Forum, I will say that I will never be bought off by
:09:01. > :09:05.anybody and I will not betray my people. No deal done? Are there has
:09:05. > :09:09.been no deal done, I would not do a deal behind the backs of the
:09:09. > :09:12.ordinary Protestant people. Something like this happens, you
:09:12. > :09:17.haven't been talking to anybody, have been negotiating with anybody,
:09:18. > :09:21.no talks with the police? What you have tried to do it is great his
:09:21. > :09:26.situation where they raised one, but at the meeting on Saturday it
:09:26. > :09:30.was agreed we would seek a meeting with the PSNI to discuss PSNI
:09:30. > :09:36.brutality, we had that meeting yesterday and we have raised those
:09:36. > :09:39.concerned. They gave an undertaking that they would meet again with the
:09:39. > :09:47.Ulster Peoples Forum and we can present him with a dossier of
:09:47. > :09:53.actions we think are out of place. No doubt these proposals... Or do
:09:53. > :09:57.they support your white line protests? The a our legal. What we
:09:57. > :10:03.need to be clear his these decisions were taken on Saturday,
:10:03. > :10:07.they had a meeting and a Park Avenue hotel, we met the PSNI... We
:10:07. > :10:12.will not do any deals behind the backs of the people. Attempts to
:10:12. > :10:16.discredit me and other people, I hope we will walk away from this
:10:16. > :10:20.and they will fail miserably. Talking to the police yesterday,
:10:20. > :10:30.did you discuss this with them? What they asked us was what our
:10:30. > :10:31.
:10:31. > :10:36.views were and what we thought what was in that statement. That is
:10:36. > :10:45.Jamie Bryson. We will speak to the elected politicians in a second or
:10:45. > :10:50.two, we're interested in what they and you think tonight. Have the
:10:50. > :10:53.police messed up here in so far as the protesters, some of these
:10:53. > :10:56.protesters, they have decided they are going to stop blocking the
:10:56. > :11:00.roads. The police haven't stopped them, they are deciding to change
:11:00. > :11:05.their tactics. I said from the outset, this was created by
:11:05. > :11:10.politics. It has to have a political solution. The problem the
:11:10. > :11:15.police faced in all of this is that anything that they do in terms of
:11:15. > :11:23.the calls from various sides, more force, less force than anything
:11:23. > :11:28.they do runs the risk of increasing the violence. So tonight, this is
:11:28. > :11:33.probably a positive move if they can make it stick. The problem is
:11:33. > :11:38.their right to grips out here, a lot of people are out peacefully
:11:38. > :11:42.protesting -- there Plaid Cymru groups out here. What we are
:11:42. > :11:46.talking about tonight is the role of the police and our expectation
:11:46. > :11:51.as a law-abiding society of the role of the police. We asked the
:11:51. > :11:56.PSNI to come on tonight, the simple answer is No. That expectation that
:11:56. > :12:01.the police will not haggle with what is legal and illegal, they
:12:01. > :12:11.will clampdown on illegality. They did not for eight weeks of blocking
:12:11. > :12:13.
:12:13. > :12:17.$:STARTFEED. Well, this is this illegal? Why don't the police move
:12:18. > :12:24.them? What do you do about it without making it worse? What do
:12:24. > :12:29.you do in that? The courts have held that the police have a degree
:12:29. > :12:35.of discretion in this and they have decided to exercise that discretion.
:12:35. > :12:41.A lot of people are upset about it. Well, do you know what, for law
:12:41. > :12:44.abiding people, dot police exercise the same discretion when they are
:12:44. > :12:51.hiding behind hedges and they do a law abiding citizen when they are
:12:51. > :12:55.doing 35mph in a 30mph zone and when you drop a cigarette butt on
:12:55. > :12:58.the ground and a council official fines you and you have a lot of
:12:58. > :13:02.people asking questions. And the right forum for that is in the
:13:02. > :13:06.policing board because one of the organisations that has been
:13:06. > :13:11.invisible throughout this has been the Policing Board who are supposed
:13:11. > :13:17.to hold the police to account. So we have mechanisms for this, to
:13:17. > :13:26.deal with this, if the people think the police haven't acted.
:13:26. > :13:28.Delores Kelly. Have the police acted fairly? I have to acknowledge
:13:28. > :13:33.that over 142 police officers have been injured throughout the
:13:33. > :13:38.protests, but what has many commentators and people have seen
:13:38. > :13:41.is there has been a differential in policing in different areas and
:13:41. > :13:46.that's that's been a concern in terms of Nationalist confidence in
:13:46. > :13:53.policing. We saw police around Ardoyne, I mean I am from the
:13:53. > :13:58.Portadown area and and we have seen policing and happened there and it
:13:58. > :14:08.tas taken the police a long time to wake up and to decide how to police
:14:08. > :14:09.
:14:09. > :14:12.the illegal pro protests. Why do you think that that is? The SDLP
:14:13. > :14:17.met with the Chief Constable. you confidence in what the Chief
:14:17. > :14:24.Constable said back to you? We are happy that the police are taking
:14:24. > :14:26.this matter seriously. We are happy that the police are one of the most
:14:26. > :14:29.most Human Rights compliant forces in Europe.
:14:29. > :14:34.Did you expect the police to go in and lift people off the middle of
:14:34. > :14:37.the road? Well, we expected police to police and as you said, law
:14:37. > :14:41.abiding citizens thought it might blow over in a day or two and let's
:14:41. > :14:45.see how it goes... Did you want them to lift people off the middle
:14:45. > :14:51.of the road? Well, we think the road should be clear for people to
:14:51. > :14:54.go about their lawful business P. Do you defend someone's right to
:14:54. > :14:59.sit in the middle of the road and to block the road? The majority of
:14:59. > :15:02.the protests were peaceful anyway. I welcome the announce announcement
:15:02. > :15:08.that there are going to be white line protests.
:15:08. > :15:13.Where they lawful? Any onesI saw were peaceful and lawful.
:15:13. > :15:17.You were involved in some? Yes, I was indeed. Lawful and peaceful and
:15:17. > :15:20.no difficulty. Your leader, Peter Robinson asked
:15:20. > :15:30.for people not to go. There was no difficulty you going?
:15:30. > :15:32.
:15:32. > :15:39.Why is that... Are you Are you disobeying your leader? He called
:15:39. > :15:41.for people not to go? See if had been illegality and law breaking
:15:41. > :15:48.and attacking of shops or property like like you Stephen would have
:15:48. > :15:51.been saying to people like me, "Where were you? Did you desert
:15:51. > :15:56.your community?" Peaceful and lawful and that was the case in 90%
:15:56. > :15:59.of the cases. Gregory, it is not the point that I
:15:59. > :16:03.or the question that I have asked you, your leader asked you not to
:16:03. > :16:11.go and you went. This is weeks ago, Stephen. This is weeks ago.
:16:11. > :16:16.Did you get disciplined? But that's sending mixed messages.
:16:17. > :16:21.We will come to mixed messages now, Delores.
:16:21. > :16:27.Whenever we talk about the policing problems like this, almost every
:16:27. > :16:30.single year I notice Republican commemorations say at Easter,
:16:30. > :16:33.whenever people go with masks and guns, the police don't rush in to
:16:33. > :16:37.arrest people breaking the law. Do you think they should? I have
:16:37. > :16:42.said what they should do. If they think it would make matters worse
:16:42. > :16:47.whether it is demonstrations at at Easter or against loyalists they
:16:47. > :16:51.should say, "Will it make matters worse?" If if it does, we wait
:16:52. > :16:55.until an appropriate time and arrest people afterwards whether it
:16:55. > :16:59.is loyalists or republicans. For the people who were blocking
:16:59. > :17:02.the road and that's illegal? Yes, in the small number of places where
:17:02. > :17:07.that happened. Yes, for all those people who were
:17:07. > :17:11.blocking the road, are you calling on the police to identify those
:17:11. > :17:13.protest protesters and arrest them? Well, I think they have arrested
:17:13. > :17:17.almost 200 people. Do you think everybody who was
:17:17. > :17:20.blocking the road should be arrested? Everybody who breaks the
:17:20. > :17:25.law, whether it is blocking the road or attacking police officers,
:17:25. > :17:29.they should face the courts. They should face due process.
:17:29. > :17:33.Every single one of them? Yes, whether they are wearing a mask in
:17:33. > :17:36.a graveyard with a gun or blocking a road.
:17:36. > :17:41.Why do you think the police did nothing for eight weeks in terms of
:17:41. > :17:45.arrests? Well, Stephen... The roads were blocked for weeks, Gregory?
:17:45. > :17:52.have heard you say this for weeks on the radio. I don't accept that
:17:52. > :17:56.they did nothing for weeks... mistake, the roads were blocked for
:17:56. > :17:59.weeks... You said the police were doing nothing.
:17:59. > :18:05.Why do you think the police were doing nothing, were they holding
:18:05. > :18:09.back? The local police commander, he will look at it and he will say,
:18:09. > :18:13.if we move in there in a heavy handed fashion we might end up with
:18:13. > :18:16.5,000 people on the streets rather than 50. Now, so what they do, they
:18:16. > :18:21.don't allow the 50 people to break the law, they go after them at the
:18:21. > :18:27.appropriate time and they face due process. Two months later? Whatever.
:18:27. > :18:32.These posters, let's look at these posters that are just out today.
:18:32. > :18:39.Eight months, eight weeks after that that started and this is for
:18:39. > :18:44.rioting. Can we see the posters? Can we see the posters? We are
:18:44. > :18:48.trying to get the posters in a second or two. Stephen Farry, have
:18:48. > :18:52.the police got this right or wrong? First of all, Stephen, most of the
:18:52. > :18:57.protests did involve blocking of roads and by definition they were
:18:57. > :19:01.illegal and even the mere threat of a protest was enough to cause
:19:01. > :19:04.disruption and stop people going about their lawful business and
:19:04. > :19:08.interrupted people's livelihoods and destroyed business particularly
:19:08. > :19:11.in... We know that. This cost... Let's talk about the policing
:19:11. > :19:15.operation? The police had a difficult balance to strike in this
:19:15. > :19:17.regard. We have to back the rule of law. If we don't have the rule of
:19:17. > :19:21.law in a society, we don't have a fair society.
:19:21. > :19:24.The police failed to uphold the rule of law. What is important the
:19:24. > :19:29.police hold to account those who were involved in breaking the law
:19:29. > :19:34.on those protests... The police feel, or are you happy with what
:19:34. > :19:38.the police did? Well this operation isn't over and now the police have
:19:38. > :19:41.moved to identify some of the key people involved in protests, it is
:19:41. > :19:46.important they follow through with the evidence that they have...
:19:46. > :19:49.you happy with how the police - do you know what, it is kind of every
:19:49. > :19:53.show I repeat it four times and then I get an answer. Are you happy
:19:53. > :19:58.with how the police have behaved or do you think they have messed up
:19:58. > :20:01.and have lessons to learn? We have allowed a situation to develop in
:20:01. > :20:06.Northern Ireland where the rule of law has been broken with impunity
:20:06. > :20:09.and that has serious consequences for the integrity of the Parades
:20:09. > :20:15.Commission and wider society. I think what was important at the
:20:15. > :20:19.time that we send a message about der terrants and perhaps if we we
:20:19. > :20:22.to send a stronger message and if politicians had given their full
:20:22. > :20:27.backing to the police we could have nipped this in the bud quicker.
:20:27. > :20:31.Well, who didn't? I think we have had mixed messages. Whenever
:20:31. > :20:41.politicians were outstanding side by side with protesters... Are you
:20:41. > :20:51.
:20:51. > :20:51.talking about him? Well, Gregory amongst others, sure.
:20:51. > :20:54.LAUGHTER APPLAUSE
:20:54. > :20:56.You see, Stephen, some of the issues that underlie the flags
:20:56. > :20:59.protest are issues that I and others have been raising for years,
:20:59. > :21:01.not just this past six weeks or six months, but for years. Now, if the
:21:01. > :21:03.protests have done some good in concentrating minds across the
:21:04. > :21:08.divide then they have done some good. They have done some good.
:21:08. > :21:10.That's no excuse... Do you back the protests? That's no excuse for law
:21:10. > :21:17.breaking. I thought I made that clear.
:21:17. > :21:22.In November at the the DUP party conference, Peter Robinson said the
:21:22. > :21:27.Union had never been more secure and Mike Nesbitt said something
:21:27. > :21:30.similar and then they are saying the British unionist has not been
:21:30. > :21:37.greater under threat. We didn't say the second half of
:21:38. > :21:41.what you have said. Look, Stephen, if we are talking about... We are
:21:41. > :21:44.talking about policing tonight, aren't we? Well, let's look at
:21:44. > :21:49.double standards here. If you get a political party, Stephen like yours
:21:49. > :21:52.that is supposed to be built on consensus and you come to Belfast
:21:52. > :21:55.City Hall and you say the unionists want one something and the
:21:55. > :21:58.Nationalists want something else and we are going to back the
:21:58. > :22:03.Nationalists. We are talking about policing tonne.
:22:03. > :22:07.Yes, sir. As a Democrat I have no problem with anybody who wants to
:22:07. > :22:10.protest, but it is the cost implications that, nobody mentioned
:22:10. > :22:18.the cost implications. Do you think the police have done,
:22:18. > :22:22.have used the right tactics? The police's hands have been tied
:22:22. > :22:26.tied but the cost implications are under the millions already and
:22:26. > :22:31.there is money and within our devolved Government there is money
:22:31. > :22:34.for policing and the money has been filtered away and it could be for
:22:34. > :22:38.hospitals or schools so it is the money issue.
:22:38. > :22:43.What we have got coming up and it is only a matter of weeks away and
:22:43. > :22:48.it is the marching season. Where is Chris Donnelly. Has a press den
:22:48. > :22:52.been set by the -- press den been set in Northern Ireland as as to
:22:52. > :22:56.how they much police the marching season? Stephen, I think, really
:22:57. > :23:02.any evaluation of the police's performance throughout the flags
:23:02. > :23:07.debacle so far, they failed on two fronts. The first, the failure to
:23:07. > :23:11.uphold the law in defence of ordinary citizens who were using
:23:11. > :23:14.the Christmas period to go to go shopping. The police failed that.
:23:14. > :23:18.But secondly, and this is the problem which is coming up with the
:23:18. > :23:22.marching season. They failed to cease the opportunity that
:23:22. > :23:28.presented itself to try to further depoliticise policing in the north
:23:28. > :23:34.of Ireland. For instance, July 2011 in Ardoyne, the police arrested and
:23:34. > :23:37.charged and fined 26 nationalist for obstructing a road. If you
:23:37. > :23:42.extrapolate those figures on to what you have been talking about
:23:42. > :23:46.the 100 odd protest that have taken place in the last eight weeks, the
:23:46. > :23:51.prescreption from prepreception from nationalism there is double
:23:51. > :23:56.standards. We can see how the police actually
:23:56. > :24:06.operated in Ardoyne. This was 2010. What they did to take some of the
:24:06. > :24:11.
:24:11. > :24:15.protesters off the road. Let's just, So what are you thinking, Chris, as
:24:16. > :24:20.you are watching these pictures? Well, what I'm thinking on that
:24:20. > :24:24.occasion, the people are trying to block the road because there was a
:24:24. > :24:28.controversial loyalist parade going through a sectarian interface. The
:24:28. > :24:32.PSNI acted in defence of what they said was the law. The Parades
:24:32. > :24:36.Commission determination. Now, we have seen in the past eight weeks
:24:36. > :24:41.the PSNI failed to implement the law when you and me and everybody
:24:41. > :24:44.else was trying to go shopping. Or were they protecting life?
:24:44. > :24:48.Article 2, the right within the European convention of Human Rights,
:24:48. > :24:52.the right to life and were the police deciding, do you know what,
:24:52. > :24:56.we are going to make sure that nobody dies here, we are going to
:24:56. > :25:03.protect life and it is a lot more sophisticated than you are
:25:03. > :25:10.suggesting. Where is Roy garland. Have you any sympathy? I have a lot
:25:10. > :25:13.of sympathy, yes, with the dilemma faced by the police. This situation
:25:13. > :25:17.in East Belfast, the major parties, I mean I think the politicians have
:25:17. > :25:23.a big role to play in this. The major parties kicked this off with
:25:23. > :25:27.their leaflet about the flag being ripped down. It was very emotive
:25:27. > :25:31.language and that got the thing set off and when the leading
:25:31. > :25:35.politicians are actually involved to that extent, what do you expect.
:25:35. > :25:39.Ordinary people? It is a very emotive issue on the grown and if
:25:39. > :25:42.the police had gone in in East Belfast and took serious action in
:25:43. > :25:45.terms of lifting people, and there was real violence between the
:25:45. > :25:51.police and there was violence, but it was the police were actually
:25:51. > :25:56.more heavy heavy handed and they couldn't have handled and there
:25:56. > :26:02.would be thousands on the streets. Imtell whau certificatior police
:26:02. > :26:05.officers -- what -- I will tell you what senior police officers, how
:26:05. > :26:09.come the political leadership was not able to step in and mean the
:26:09. > :26:14.police weren't put in the middle getting bricks and bottles and
:26:14. > :26:18.everything else thrown at them and Peter Robinson couldn't stand
:26:18. > :26:22.beside Martin McGuinness when the country needed them to. Well...
:26:22. > :26:27.That's what some police officers will be saying. In many instances
:26:27. > :26:32.political leaders did that. Deescalated the tension and kept
:26:32. > :26:36.things peaceful and tried to get people off the streets... When did
:26:36. > :26:39.the First Minister and Deputy First Minister stand together? Well, I
:26:39. > :26:43.suggested on Monday past that the two of them should stand together
:26:43. > :26:46.and condemn all violence past as well as present and the Deputy
:26:46. > :26:53.First Minister declined to respond to that. Now, I don't know whether
:26:53. > :26:58.he has a problem with past violence. If He does, does I would like to
:26:58. > :27:02.hear what it is. And Gerry Kelly said that Martin
:27:02. > :27:07.asked Peter to stand on this this issue and it didn't happen.
:27:07. > :27:12.Politician need to give leadership. What you need to do after today,
:27:12. > :27:17.the Ulster Peoples' Forum indicated that they want to deescalate
:27:17. > :27:21.tension. We need to get leaders to ensure there are no further attacks
:27:21. > :27:25.on prod stand property in -- Protestant in the lower part of the
:27:25. > :27:35.Newtownards Road to deescalate tension. Hope that will respond and
:27:35. > :27:39.
:27:39. > :27:42.The chief constable has gone in on community policing, where is the
:27:43. > :27:48.committee policing? You see the brutality on the street, what does
:27:48. > :27:55.he think he's going to happen? would deny they raise brutality.
:27:55. > :28:03.can deny it, you can see the video footage. I just wish the PSNI were
:28:03. > :28:09.here tonight. It would be them but in their view, denying it up.
:28:09. > :28:12.are they to talk to the people? Yori former detective
:28:12. > :28:16.superintendent, do you think the police have got this right? I think
:28:16. > :28:21.a lot of people here are missing the big point, which is that
:28:21. > :28:27.Article 11 of the European legislation clearly state that
:28:27. > :28:31.people have a right to protest. The PSNI are duty bound by that to
:28:31. > :28:35.adhere to it come it will be an interesting court case, because yes,
:28:35. > :28:40.there is an offence with the obstruction of the highway but
:28:40. > :28:44.equally, article 11 allows the but to illustrate that demonstration.
:28:44. > :28:50.Do you think the police have the resources to handle this? I think
:28:50. > :28:54.the PSNI have done a good job and I am not here to represent them, I am
:28:55. > :29:00.representing people in the business sector. People are underestimating
:29:00. > :29:04.the work they are doing. Will has been sitting around, working with
:29:04. > :29:11.community leaders, no doubt up to his eyes, sleepless nights, with
:29:11. > :29:15.his senior management team. Give the PSNI habit of credit. They are
:29:15. > :29:22.here holding up the Rawda brought to an hour community leaders, and
:29:22. > :29:25.everybody else to get it right. told us it was scandalous that they
:29:25. > :29:34.had caught in the Metropolitan Police. I think they lost control
:29:34. > :29:41.last year in London after the riots. But to be fair, they are probably
:29:41. > :29:45.passing on some of the points that they had under review to be PSNI.
:29:45. > :29:47.Do you think they needed to learn from the UMPIRE: Game, set and
:29:47. > :29:54.match,? It should never have happened, you
:29:54. > :29:58.said. That is the impression a lot of people have a. Why are they
:29:58. > :30:02.calling in the Metropolitan Police. Having said that, the person doing
:30:02. > :30:07.the investigation I have a lot of respect for. He knows what he is
:30:07. > :30:11.talking about, he is a good investigator or therefore yes, I
:30:11. > :30:20.would say they have done the right thing by getting the Metropolitan
:30:20. > :30:24.police in. So it is not scandalous? A net macro look at it. -- let's
:30:24. > :30:30.look at it. The PSNI are always available to look at other police
:30:30. > :30:36.forces. Chewed Collins, ahead of the marching season, what is your
:30:36. > :30:39.assessment? I can think of a few things more important than public
:30:39. > :30:46.confidence in the police service. These are the people we pay to
:30:46. > :30:50.ensure the law is absurd. -- observed. We could pardon them for
:30:50. > :30:57.having waited for a few days, eight weeks, and it wasn't just road
:30:57. > :31:04.blocks, there were people's lives, elected politicians' lives
:31:04. > :31:10.threatened, their offices were burnt, and we are where we were
:31:10. > :31:13.when we started. The young man you interviewed earlier felt it would
:31:13. > :31:17.be a peaceful protest this time, that is what the politicians
:31:18. > :31:22.thought. Police officers have been injured two, by the way. Can I ask
:31:22. > :31:26.you about a politician to have had death threats. Would you ask for
:31:26. > :31:31.the protests outside the offices of politicians to stop? Are don't
:31:31. > :31:36.think it is advisable to have protests outside the offices of
:31:36. > :31:40.politicians, that is not what they are there for. Do you condemn them?
:31:40. > :31:45.You can't condemn a peaceful, legitimate protest outside a party
:31:45. > :31:51.political office even though it is not desirable. If it happened
:31:51. > :31:54.outside a DUP office? What we all need it is the protests to end and
:31:54. > :32:00.the first minister to say that alongside the opposition. He has
:32:00. > :32:06.said it. Will they should start listening to him. We do need
:32:06. > :32:09.leadership. The protests are happening, it is interfering with a
:32:09. > :32:14.democratic right to conduct our business as elected representatives.
:32:14. > :32:20.If you have people standing outside your door... You have called for
:32:20. > :32:25.them to stop. Peaceable, lawful, legitimate protest, you think I
:32:25. > :32:30.should condemn that? If they are interfering with the democratic
:32:30. > :32:34.process. I have never heard one alight representative of any kind,
:32:34. > :32:42.of any standing, say the legitimate peaceful protest is presenting them
:32:42. > :32:45.up from... After eight weeks... There are constituents of hours or
:32:45. > :32:50.are unwilling to come to our offices because of the perceived
:32:50. > :32:59.danger of the protesters standing outside, will they get abuse,
:32:59. > :33:05.particularly in East Belfast... They are intimidated. No alight
:33:05. > :33:11.robbers as Dave knew that until now. -- no allied to a Briton has dipped.
:33:11. > :33:17.He is saying it now, so are you calling for them to stop? I don't
:33:17. > :33:23.think they should happen, I think they should stop. There is a man
:33:23. > :33:27.here, go ahead. I think the flags issue has certainly brought some
:33:27. > :33:31.clarity around the legality of having a protest. Certainly for
:33:31. > :33:34.younger people there is confusion around having -- being able to
:33:34. > :33:38.block roads, and we didn't want police arresting young people and
:33:38. > :33:45.giving them a criminal record when they were probably confused and
:33:45. > :33:48.didn't understand, can I just say... What about this, you don't put a
:33:48. > :33:53.criminal record, don't break the law. What about telling young
:33:53. > :33:58.people back. That is where rammed it into, they need to be educated.
:33:58. > :34:03.I was disappointed that the statement because the word legal
:34:03. > :34:07.wasn't in it. There are many protests that have been illegal, it
:34:07. > :34:11.is not as blocking a road, using threatening and violent behaviour,
:34:11. > :34:16.it is all breaking the law and people need to understand it cannot
:34:16. > :34:20.be accepted. We need to make this programme about five hours longer
:34:20. > :34:30.to get through it all, we can continue the discussion on the
:34:30. > :34:32.
:34:32. > :34:42.radio programme tomorrow and on A police thank our panel. Thank you.
:34:42. > :34:44.
:34:44. > :34:49.Still to come - are tattoos still Papua, we hear from a man who was
:34:49. > :34:53.told to leave one of Northern Ireland's prime establishments
:34:53. > :34:56.because of his body art. My special guest tonight really deserves to be
:34:56. > :34:58.called special - and he's only four years old! Oscar Knox from
:34:58. > :35:04.Glengormley is battling an aggressive form of cancer called
:35:04. > :35:07.neuroblastoma as well as the heart condition pulmonary hypertension.
:35:07. > :35:11.He has captured the hearts of people across Northern Ireland and
:35:11. > :35:20.beyond. With celebrities and sports personalities among those getting
:35:20. > :35:28.behind him. Earlier today I went to meet the man himself.
:35:28. > :35:38.Kidd to see you! Nice to meet U2. How low there! What is is cheaper
:35:38. > :35:45.
:35:45. > :35:54.for? Is that oxygen? Yes! What did I say on the radio? They also got a
:35:54. > :36:04.visit from double Olympic boxing medallist at Paddy Barnes. Do you
:36:04. > :36:04.
:36:04. > :36:14.want to box me? Yes! And he tried to teach me his favourite dance.
:36:14. > :36:18.
:36:18. > :36:28.Like this? I am following new! All right? I don't know if I can do
:36:28. > :36:41.
:36:41. > :36:46.that. Do we get to sleep at any His mum and dad are with us tonight.
:36:46. > :36:51.I was gobsmacked when I went to your home, thank you for inviting
:36:51. > :36:58.me. Just the energy that he has, it is incredible. It is hard to
:36:58. > :37:04.believe he is so sick. I think that is what... How he is, that is what
:37:04. > :37:08.has engaged everyone so much, because it defies all odds. He is
:37:08. > :37:13.sick and he has come through so many battles, but he always has
:37:13. > :37:22.that incredible spirit and that is what has got us through it. And his
:37:22. > :37:27.illness has very much but a journey. It was late 2011, shortly after his
:37:27. > :37:30.third birthday, he just started waking up crying in the night and
:37:30. > :37:38.just wasn't himself. He has just started playgroup a few weeks
:37:38. > :37:41.earlier so we put it into that, the new environment, but as the weeks
:37:41. > :37:46.went on a bit of pain developed and all of a sudden we were taking him
:37:46. > :37:53.in out of hospital. To cut a long story short, it was about seven
:37:54. > :37:59.weeks, he was eventually diagnosed with neuroblastoma. That was the
:37:59. > :38:05.chromosome disorder, that is a one in every 100,000 chance of having
:38:05. > :38:11.that. What happened then was the neuroblastoma, that is an extremely
:38:11. > :38:17.rare and aggressive Chartered cancer. -- childhood cancer. He has
:38:17. > :38:26.been battling at Batley, then there was a one in 10 billion chance of
:38:26. > :38:33.the neuroblastoma, was then there? Boasting sea has, chicken since --
:38:33. > :38:38.both diseases he has combined are about one in 10 billion, it is
:38:38. > :38:44.pretty unlucky. Other kids get sick and obviously our hearts go out to
:38:44. > :38:46.those kids, your story has captured a lot of attention. First of all
:38:46. > :38:52.because you are incredible parents and you are fighting and fighting
:38:52. > :38:58.for your child in an amazing way. The treatment wasn't available here
:38:58. > :39:02.in Northern Ireland so you brought him to America. We faced a hard
:39:02. > :39:06.decision, we decided to take him abroad to get it where we could. We
:39:06. > :39:12.knew we had to raise a quarter of million pounds, so starting from
:39:12. > :39:16.zero and thinking of that figure was just mind-blowing. But we got
:39:16. > :39:22.our story out there and people started at raising money for him in
:39:22. > :39:28.small event. This was a Twitter campaign, it started off like that?
:39:28. > :39:33.And on Facebook, yes, and day one, it we have got to raise a quarter
:39:33. > :39:37.of a million pounds, go. We knew we had a time limit as well, we knew
:39:37. > :39:42.we had to get it within a certain space of time, we were working
:39:42. > :39:50.against the clock. We had about four hours' sleep for about three
:39:50. > :39:53.months, we gave it our all. And you did it! We did. With the help of
:39:53. > :39:59.the public who were absolutely fantastic, for love and support
:39:59. > :40:02.that has been shown for him was just incredible. You got him to
:40:02. > :40:08.America and when you got him to America, then it was another blow?
:40:08. > :40:12.Yes, we found out he had a serious heart defect when we got over there,
:40:12. > :40:17.the flight ported to the fore, he struggled with the lack of oxygen
:40:17. > :40:21.and everything. Within today's he was critically ill and in intensive
:40:21. > :40:26.care. This was a massive surprise, because you have been aware of the
:40:26. > :40:34.other illnesses, I know that he actually coughed up quite a lot of
:40:34. > :40:38.blood committed and he? He is, it was a horrendous experience. We
:40:38. > :40:43.couldn't believe what was happening, what we achieved to get there, then
:40:43. > :40:50.the setback that we knew we couldn't get in the treatment we
:40:50. > :40:56.felt he really needed. It was beyond a huge blow, we were so far
:40:56. > :41:03.from home, it was tough. And yet, you thought and he fought. He
:41:03. > :41:06.needed lost his life but he thought. On two separate occasions, we were
:41:06. > :41:12.told he might not last the night and we were told to say goodbye to
:41:12. > :41:18.him just in case. That little man who was running around the living-
:41:18. > :41:25.room, exhausting the! -- it exhausting me. He has fought back
:41:25. > :41:30.again! Still fighting. That is what has got tend to this point, he has
:41:30. > :41:34.incredible fight and as long as he fights, we fight with him. Does he
:41:34. > :41:39.understand anything about his illness? That is a conscious
:41:39. > :41:43.decision? We just want him to think it is normal. We are trying to
:41:43. > :41:53.preserve his innocence, he is Ali four, he has been immersed in this
:41:53. > :41:57.world of paying and hospitals... And a kids can to, it is horrible.
:41:57. > :42:01.-- cancer. They see things kids shouldn't have to go through.
:42:01. > :42:05.he think it is normal every child has to do that in hospital?
:42:05. > :42:10.staff in the children's unit are incredible, we can't thank them
:42:10. > :42:15.enough for what they have done. It sound surprising but it is such a
:42:15. > :42:23.nice environment they have created that Oscar actually involves --
:42:23. > :42:33.enjoys going to sue the nurses and doctors. This massive campaign, you
:42:33. > :42:39.
:42:39. > :42:45.two amazing people have made it Liam Neeson has been helping you.
:42:45. > :42:49.What did you send you? An auny is a friend -- auntie is a friend of his
:42:49. > :42:56.sister and he sent over some memorabilia.
:42:56. > :43:04.There is a huge Twitter campaign, a huge Facebook campaign and a huge
:43:04. > :43:07.internet campaign. At the start, we we create the Team
:43:07. > :43:11.Oscar wristband and we tried pushing them on celebrities and
:43:11. > :43:15.sports people and we got a lot of celebrities on board.
:43:15. > :43:21.What's the outlook for him? As far as we know it is a 50% relapse rate
:43:21. > :43:25.with his neuroblastoma. We believe he is in remission, but it is 50/50
:43:25. > :43:29.whether it will rather its ugly head again. If it does, the outlook
:43:30. > :43:33.is very, very poor, but he has created the moment and we are
:43:33. > :43:38.taking every day as it comes and hoping he will have a normal life.
:43:38. > :43:41.I admire him. I only met him today. I admire you two. Keep on fighting
:43:41. > :43:47.and thank you so, so much for sharing a little part of his story.
:43:47. > :43:53.Thank you for coming in. Please thank them, ladies and gentlemen.
:43:53. > :43:57.APPLAUSE Thank you very much.
:43:57. > :44:01.Right, that's important. That's what life is all about. Before we
:44:01. > :44:11.move on, let's get a reminder of how you can get in touch with
:44:11. > :44:29.
:44:29. > :44:33.tonight's programme. Now, some people see them as
:44:33. > :44:37.unsightly. Others as a form of self expression, but what happens when
:44:37. > :44:40.your body art leads you to being discriminated against in your
:44:40. > :44:44.opinion? Well, we know it is against the law to discriminate
:44:44. > :44:50.against someone on the grounds of race, gender or sexuality, why
:44:50. > :44:59.could it be OK to show prejudice towards someone because they are
:44:59. > :45:06.tattooed? Well this week a man brought his story to the Nolan
:45:06. > :45:11.Radio Show Show. I am nervous. It feels like the first time I went to
:45:11. > :45:21.get a tattoo done so it does. Don't be nervous, it is only me,
:45:21. > :45:21.
:45:21. > :45:25.but if you annoy me! Don't be nervous. I phone up up Galgorm
:45:25. > :45:31.Resort and Spa to book the restaurant for me girl and four
:45:31. > :45:36.friends. The table was booked for 8.30pm we arrived. Passing the door
:45:37. > :45:41.men on the way in through. They said, "Are you in for a meal?" I
:45:41. > :45:46.said yes. We were led to our table and stuff. At the table I said,
:45:47. > :45:51."Can I add an extra person to the table?". Let me cut a long story
:45:51. > :45:56.short. The long and short of this story was, after you had your meal,
:45:56. > :46:01.you were asked to leave because there is a no tattoo policy within
:46:01. > :46:07.the premises and that's at the heart of this debate, is it all
:46:07. > :46:17.right, a no visible tattoo policy and your tattoos are very visible.
:46:17. > :46:18.
:46:18. > :46:22.Now, we invited a representative from the Galgorm Resort and Spa
:46:22. > :46:26.into this studio tonight. They declined. They did however, send a
:46:26. > :46:29.statement in which they said they have a series of codes in place for
:46:29. > :46:32.Gillies public bar. They said this includes a dress code and a code
:46:32. > :46:36.which states that tattoos should not be visible whilst in the bar.
:46:36. > :46:39.The statement went on to say, many of our guests also have tattoos and,
:46:39. > :46:42.if requested, agree to cover them up while in the bar without any
:46:42. > :46:46.issue. An establishment can have a policy and if you don't like it, go
:46:46. > :46:52.somewhere else? Stephen the thing that annoyed me that night was the
:46:52. > :46:57.fact that the waiter that served me my food or our food was tattooed on
:46:57. > :47:03.the hand. Now, there was several people walked past me with tattoos,
:47:03. > :47:07.visible tattoos. Let's widen this out. Do any of you at home have a
:47:07. > :47:10.problem with tattoos like the one on Mark's face? Would it put you
:47:10. > :47:17.off? Would you make a judgement about him? Can we call a spade a
:47:17. > :47:21.spade, would you think he is a hard man? That's what it is about. I am
:47:22. > :47:28.saying people make a judgement. They look at you and think, "Is
:47:28. > :47:34.that a hard man?". I'm soft. Do you make any type of judgement?
:47:34. > :47:38.I think Stephen, everybody does. We all discriminate. This is a
:47:38. > :47:42.generational thing...... Is it right? Everybody judges everybody.
:47:42. > :47:46.People are judging me. I don't like him very much. That's the way life
:47:46. > :47:51.is, but when you go for a job, it is hard enough as it is, but if you
:47:51. > :47:55.have got a visible tattoo. If you have got a tattoo, I don't mind
:47:55. > :48:05.tattoos, if they are discreet, if they are pretty pretty... Do you
:48:05. > :48:06.
:48:06. > :48:11.mind his? A-lovely guy only for the tattoos.
:48:11. > :48:15.Don't be ridiculous. When I was growing up the only people that had
:48:15. > :48:19.tattoos were criminals. But this is a generational thing. The tattoo is
:48:19. > :48:23.the mark of the 21st century. People look at these differently
:48:23. > :48:28.now. A Carter of the people under 30 -- a quarter of the people under
:48:28. > :48:33.30 have tattoos. It is great if you want something that's pretty, small,
:48:33. > :48:38.discreet and not visible. To put it on your hands and face is
:48:38. > :48:42.tantamount to self indulgence. In my business in Ballymena, my
:48:42. > :48:48.oldest client that I have tattooed is 63 years of age and you are
:48:48. > :48:53.trying to say there now that you wouldn't have a tattoo. Why put it
:48:53. > :48:59.all over your face? I'm just different. I'm just different. I
:48:59. > :49:04.have been interested in art and tattoo art art from a young age and
:49:05. > :49:09.it is something I wanted to do. You are a teacher, right? Yes.
:49:09. > :49:13.Do you think he could teach kids with that? Do you think I could
:49:13. > :49:17.drive a bus like this? Yes. Do you think I could drive a bus?
:49:17. > :49:20.Of course, you could. Thank you, I used to work on the
:49:20. > :49:26.buses and I drove buses for many years looking like this.
:49:26. > :49:32.If he went for a job... Is the discrimination right or justifiable
:49:32. > :49:37.in way shape or form? I think people who need visible tattoos,
:49:37. > :49:41.there is an element of this craving to be an individual and they are
:49:41. > :49:48.less likely to be a team player. You would just melt into the crowd,
:49:48. > :49:50.wouldn't you? LAUGHTER
:49:50. > :49:54.Says him, careful calling the pot black.
:49:54. > :49:58.Where is Paul Martin? It is great to see Mark on TV because we have
:49:58. > :50:04.heard about it on the radio and people who heard about this on the
:50:04. > :50:09.radio thought this guy has gone in with a normal tattoo. Do you judge
:50:10. > :50:13.him? Well, Mark knows he puts people in a position to judge him.
:50:13. > :50:16.He said, "I think people probably get intimidated unless they get to
:50:16. > :50:20.speak to me for two minutes." Who is going to have two minutes of
:50:20. > :50:24.time to go off to Mark and find out he is a nice guy which by the way
:50:24. > :50:28.you are and say, "I like you now." They were right to turn you away.
:50:28. > :50:32.You knew what you were going. When you put this tattoo you must have
:50:32. > :50:35.thought I want lots of attention and I have got lots of people
:50:35. > :50:43.noticing me tonne. There is a guy on the front row
:50:43. > :50:49.that disagrees with you. Are you for or against tattoos? It is every
:50:49. > :50:52.every individual's choice what you put on. There is fellas serving in
:50:52. > :50:55.the Armed Forces and in Afghanistan and they have tattoos on the arms
:50:55. > :51:00.and stuff. They are They are there doing a job. Mark does a job for
:51:00. > :51:03.the public. If you come in tomorrow and you say, "I want a tattoo on me
:51:03. > :51:08.face." If you have it on, that's your choice.
:51:08. > :51:13.Listen, whether it is right or not, park that, OK? You know that you
:51:13. > :51:20.are putting yourself on the back foot in some situations because...
:51:20. > :51:23.Will it make me any different or you or anybody else here? It does.
:51:23. > :51:28.You disadvantage yourself because of what you have put on your face
:51:28. > :51:31.in terms of situations... Discrimination.
:51:31. > :51:35.Where you might be discriminated against? It is what people see you
:51:35. > :51:40.as. It is not yourself. It is the likes of yourself, you can sit
:51:40. > :51:43.there and look at me and say, "You have served time or you have done
:51:43. > :51:46.this or that." You don't know me, unless you talk to me, that's the
:51:46. > :51:50.only way you would know. If you were policemen on the
:51:50. > :51:57.streets of Belfast, there would be less trouble! I wouldn't misbehave
:51:57. > :52:00.with you two in charge! The back row. I would like to make
:52:00. > :52:03.the point there. As an art teacher, I appreciate the tattoo. It is a
:52:03. > :52:09.great tattoo. It is up to an individual to decide whether he
:52:09. > :52:15.wants tattooed or not, I wondering what would happen if an individual
:52:15. > :52:19.wants to have that tattoo removed? Would he be scarred? Can you remove
:52:19. > :52:22.it safely? That's one decision you have to make before you go and make
:52:22. > :52:29.any tattoo, you need to be 110% sure about it. I thought very well
:52:29. > :52:36.about my tattoo and in fact years before I put it on to my face.
:52:36. > :52:41.Where is Andrew McVeigh. I think Paul Martin is living in the last
:52:41. > :52:44.century if not the 18th century or something!
:52:44. > :52:44.APPLAUSE Tattoos
:52:44. > :52:44.Tattoos are
:52:44. > :52:45.Tattoos are so
:52:45. > :52:47.Tattoos are so mainstream.
:52:47. > :52:52.Tattoos are so mainstream. To be rebellious you would almost not to
:52:52. > :52:57.have a tattoo. One gh five tattoos have -- one in five young people
:52:57. > :53:03.have tattoos. Hang on, not all over their face? I have got six of them
:53:03. > :53:08.and I am a mainstream person and plus one on my foot. If I went into
:53:08. > :53:18.the the Galgorm Resort and Spa, I wouldn't be allowed in.
:53:18. > :53:24.I don't want to keep on about the Galgorm.
:53:24. > :53:29.There is a massive difference. I like the one on your foot. Stead
:53:29. > :53:33.on! Steady on! There is a difference teen this on
:53:33. > :53:40.the foot and you know, being outrageously attention seeking
:53:40. > :53:44.which is what this is! It is self indulgence. That's my
:53:44. > :53:51.own style. It is great for your business. It
:53:51. > :53:55.is a win, win. Getting thrown out of a restaurant,
:53:55. > :53:59.you got great publicity. How do you think I feel? You said
:53:59. > :54:09.yourself, you probably intimidate people. How do you think I feel
:54:09. > :54:11.
:54:11. > :54:15.about what happened to me and my party in Galgorm Resort and Spa?
:54:15. > :54:20.said to Stephen, I haven't slept three nights for it.
:54:20. > :54:25.It was great publicity for tattoos. I have a successful business as it
:54:25. > :54:35.is. You understand what I'm saying? One second. There is someone in the
:54:35. > :54:37.
:54:37. > :54:42.front row here. Yes, go ahead. Tattoos have come on so much since
:54:42. > :54:47.years ago. 20 odd years ago, you know, you said criminals, but I
:54:47. > :54:52.mean, you know, it was blokes, you know, that had the tattoos, but it
:54:52. > :54:57.has come on so much now. Not everybody is is getting them, but
:54:57. > :55:00.they are works of art. You have seen the pictures up there now. The
:55:00. > :55:04.actual process has come on so much. They are works of art. The people
:55:04. > :55:10.want to display them, those works of art.
:55:11. > :55:15.Look, but people, most people won't admit it, but the majority of
:55:15. > :55:20.people do discriminate against people who have visible tattoos.
:55:20. > :55:23.That's their problem. Think about the people who have
:55:23. > :55:28.tattoos. You were saying people with tattoos, they are
:55:28. > :55:32.individualists and they are not team players, you can't get more of
:55:32. > :55:37.of a team player than David Beckham. The Prime Minister's wife. You
:55:37. > :55:44.can't get more establishment than the Prime Minister's wife, Samantha
:55:45. > :55:52.Cameron has a tattoo. . Kathy is on the line. Hello Kathy.
:55:52. > :56:00.Hello gallery. Hello, I would like to make a point that the fella with
:56:00. > :56:02.a tattoo is a very, very attractive looking fella.
:56:02. > :56:10.LAUGHTER He looks gorgeous and I think a
:56:10. > :56:14.couple of tattoos would improve the luck. Luck of the other man!
:56:14. > :56:19.APPLAUSE -- the look of the other man!
:56:19. > :56:25.Kathy, I think I'm going to dare to ask this question. Where would you
:56:25. > :56:31.put the tattoos on Simon? All over his his face because he needs help
:56:31. > :56:34.or plastic surgery. What is happening there with Kathy,
:56:34. > :56:36.she is judging you on your appearance and the majority of
:56:36. > :56:41.people... I can't do much about that.
:56:41. > :56:47.The majority of people would be going, "That's not right and that's
:56:47. > :56:52.uncall for." Yet, would the same people... I can't help the way I
:56:52. > :56:58.look. That's the way I was born. I haven't had plastic surgery, plapse
:56:58. > :57:04.I need -- perhaps I need some. Well, you are only after
:57:04. > :57:12.criticising Mark. I have no tattoo, if I was covered up here, could you
:57:12. > :57:18.tell me? All I'm I'm saying... me see your arm there. Hold your
:57:18. > :57:26.arm up until I get a shot of your tattoos? Would you judge him
:57:26. > :57:29.because of that? Yeah, I would judge him. Judge him in what way?
:57:29. > :57:33.Look, it is not just me, but prospective employers, if you came
:57:33. > :57:40.along and your hands were covered in tattoos, you are less likely to
:57:40. > :57:50.get the job. You are on the back foot. You are making... Do you
:57:50. > :57:56.
:57:56. > :58:00.agree? Well, sort of in a way, Stephen. The news from from from
:58:00. > :58:06.the Galgorm Resort and Spa and they said they are sorry and they were
:58:06. > :58:10.going to refund your money. That was the phone call I had..
:58:10. > :58:15.That's a gesture? It's a joke. That they are refunding your money?
:58:15. > :58:18.It is a joke. It is clearly an issue and you can see whether the
:58:18. > :58:21.Galgorm Resort and Spa were in this situation because some of the