:00:11. > :00:15.Should paying for sex be a crime? If the DUP get their way then
:00:15. > :00:19.Northern Ireland will be the only place in the UK where you get a
:00:19. > :00:25.criminal record for paying for a prostitute. Should parents smack
:00:25. > :00:29.their kids? We will debate it. And a remarkable tale of triumph over
:00:29. > :00:36.adversity. Mark Pollock will be here to share his inspirational
:00:36. > :00:40.story. This week ten years ago I was about to make my first journey
:00:40. > :00:50.with my guide dog. I had not been out of the house for nine months.
:00:50. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:20.Little did I know that I would end This audience tonight have been
:01:20. > :01:24.slagging me off about my brown shoes, they have been slagging me
:01:24. > :01:30.off about my jacket not closing probably. We are in trouble tonight.
:01:30. > :01:40.How are you at home? Welcome along. We will give you the numbers to
:01:40. > :01:59.
:01:59. > :02:03.email, text and tweaked. Let's have Now, first up, is there anything
:02:03. > :02:10.wrong with a consenting adult paying another consenting adult for
:02:10. > :02:15.sex? If the DUP get their way it will be illegal here. Let's discuss
:02:15. > :02:20.this. Lord Maurice Morrow is here along with the Independent escort
:02:20. > :02:26.Laura Lee. You want to help stamp out human trafficking but what has
:02:26. > :02:30.that got to do with prostitution? You are right that my bill is to do
:02:30. > :02:38.with human trafficking. What we do know it is the vast majority of
:02:38. > :02:43.people who are trafficked are trafficked for sex exploitation.
:02:43. > :02:50.Let me say this at the start. This is not about what the DUP once. It
:02:50. > :02:53.is about what is good for Northern Ireland. We do know it that the
:02:53. > :03:00.vast majority... The DUP do not decide what is good for Northern
:03:00. > :03:05.Ireland. What we do know is the vast majority of women who are
:03:06. > :03:09.trafficked are trafficked into the sex trade. What we want to put in
:03:09. > :03:15.place are measures that will tackle human trafficking and we believe
:03:15. > :03:21.the best way to do this is to ensure that those who purchase a
:03:21. > :03:25.person, a woman, they should be the ones who should go to court. And
:03:25. > :03:29.that is what my Bill is designed to do. But the vast majority of
:03:29. > :03:34.prostitutes are not traffic, are they? I happen to take the view
:03:34. > :03:39.that the vast majority of them are trafficked. Wedd you get the
:03:39. > :03:48.statistics from? There is irrefutable evidence. Where is it?
:03:48. > :03:55.We do know that in 2007, Surrey 2008 / 9, the number of traffic to
:03:55. > :04:00.victims was 11. We know that in 2011 / 12, the number of trafficked
:04:00. > :04:05.victims was 27. That is a big increase. Let me say this before
:04:05. > :04:09.you start, that is the tip of the iceberg. We accept that those
:04:09. > :04:14.figures are not the real figures but it is an indication of what is
:04:14. > :04:19.happening. We do know from those figures that the vast majority of
:04:19. > :04:24.those have been trafficked for sexual exploitation. But we do know.
:04:24. > :04:30.Those figures are available and the evidence of there. But as a point
:04:30. > :04:37.of principle, you are against consenting adults paying for sex?
:04:37. > :04:43.Let me relate something to you. I got a phone call from a 23-year-old
:04:43. > :04:50.lady, who asked to meet me one day at Stormont. I went along and I met
:04:50. > :04:58.her. And I heard her story. 23 years of age, a lovely young woman,
:04:58. > :05:08.and she was trafficked from Europe into the Irish Republic and ended
:05:08. > :05:12.up here in Northern Ireland. She was raped 20 times. How would you
:05:12. > :05:17.feel if that had been your sister? How would you feel if that had been
:05:17. > :05:23.a relative of yours? That young woman was left with no voice, no
:05:23. > :05:29.comfort, no support, know where to turn. That is the type of person I
:05:29. > :05:34.am trying to speak for in my bill. That is what it is about. Obviously,
:05:34. > :05:38.that is disgusting and everyone will find it disgusting. You will
:05:38. > :05:42.concede that there are some prostitutes who have been born in
:05:42. > :05:46.this country and to why a prostitute because they want to be
:05:46. > :05:51.and there are two consenting adults, one paying money and another
:05:51. > :05:58.offering a service. There have never been trafficked in their life.
:05:58. > :06:03.You also criminalising those people. I do accept that not everybody in
:06:03. > :06:13.prostitution has been coerced or trafficked. Yd blanket ban? What we
:06:13. > :06:18.do know it in Sweden, which my Bill is modelled on, this Bill was
:06:18. > :06:23.introduced in Sweden and it reduced trafficking by 50 %. I believe this
:06:23. > :06:26.is the effective way of dealing with it. I expect we will hear from
:06:27. > :06:32.the affluent side of prostitution but you will not here tonight from
:06:32. > :06:35.those who have no voice, have no one to speak out for them, have had
:06:35. > :06:39.their passports confiscated, have had their rights taken away, have
:06:39. > :06:44.been plunged into a life of debt and crime. We will not hear from
:06:44. > :06:54.them and I will endeavour to be their voice in this legislation.
:06:54. > :06:54.
:06:54. > :06:59.Laura, you are a prostitute. I am. A real life one. What would you say
:06:59. > :07:04.to Lord Morrow? I would say that Lord Morrow is looking at it
:07:04. > :07:08.completely the wrong way. He says he is giving a voice to if I can
:07:09. > :07:14.say the silent majority. I am the voice of the majority and I have
:07:14. > :07:19.met a lot of the sex workers who have worked in been -- in Northern
:07:19. > :07:25.Ireland. To refer to them as a worst is not true. Yes, abuse has
:07:25. > :07:29.happened but abuse happens in every industry. No right-thinking person
:07:29. > :07:34.in this room would support a woman being trafficked and raped. What I
:07:34. > :07:37.would call on Lord Morrow to do is to introduce a charge of aggravated
:07:37. > :07:43.trafficking in Northern Ireland so we can hit the traffickers hard but
:07:43. > :07:47.leave us contenting adults alone to do our jobs in peace -- as
:07:47. > :07:50.consenting adults. Will you let Laura choose to sell her body for
:07:50. > :07:55.sex and will you let a man choose to pay for her without being
:07:55. > :08:03.criminalised? Stephen, if you take a look at the figures and see how
:08:03. > :08:07.many have been prosecuted here in Northern Ireland, you will find for
:08:07. > :08:13.human trafficking it is two. What does that tell you? The wood to
:08:13. > :08:18.deal with the question? Let me say this. Any senior police officer
:08:18. > :08:27.will tell you, if you have got a crime happening in your midst, and
:08:27. > :08:31.you were down to just two Prosecutions, de facto it is legal.
:08:31. > :08:36.We need to wake up and see what exactly is going on in our very
:08:36. > :08:39.mixed. Let me try the question again.
:08:39. > :08:44.Would you let a consenting prostitute who has not been
:08:44. > :08:53.trafficked, you still want to criminalise the man who pays for
:08:53. > :08:59.that sex. Let me say... Is this by your religious beliefs? This is
:08:59. > :09:04.about victims of trafficking. This is about people whose lives are
:09:04. > :09:09.being destroyed and there is no one to speak out for them. That is
:09:09. > :09:15.exactly what I am trying to give. If it is about those victims, let's
:09:15. > :09:20.distinguish between those victims and the people who are consenting
:09:20. > :09:23.adults. Can you answer the question yes or no, are you saying you want
:09:23. > :09:30.to criminalise men who pay a consenting woman like Laura who has
:09:30. > :09:34.never been trafficked for sex? saying we are going to truckle --
:09:34. > :09:39.tackle human trafficking. If we are going to tackle this issue in our
:09:39. > :09:43.midst the best way forward is to criminalise the purchase of a body.
:09:43. > :09:47.Just to come in there, very important point to mention, sex
:09:47. > :09:53.workers at the moment we enjoy a good working relationship with the
:09:53. > :10:03.police. We speak to them regularly about concerns that we have.
:10:03. > :10:05.
:10:05. > :10:11.LAUGHTER. Moving swiftly on. I am very keen to maintain that open
:10:11. > :10:16.relationship with the police. If Lord Moray's Bill comes into effect,
:10:16. > :10:21.we will be driven further away from the authorities who can help those
:10:21. > :10:26.of women. Are Lord Morrow, why should you be the one to determine
:10:26. > :10:32.what a woman does with her body? Surely it should be her choice?
:10:32. > :10:41.am not the one who will determine it. There are 108 Assembly Members.
:10:41. > :10:48.You are proposing it. They will be the ones who will determine it.
:10:48. > :10:54.question is obvious. You want to talk all the time at. This will not
:10:54. > :10:58.be the decision of Maurice Morrow to decide. This will be the
:10:58. > :11:03.collective decision of the Northern Ireland Assembly who have so many,
:11:03. > :11:09.including this man here who goes on daily and says what are they doing
:11:09. > :11:14.on the hill? What we are doing is introducing legislation. Can I tell
:11:14. > :11:19.you what I say, you say when you have got a young man like that who
:11:19. > :11:24.is engaging with politicians and wants to know what you as an
:11:24. > :11:34.individual stand for, don't spread it among 108 people. Tavern what
:11:34. > :11:37.
:11:37. > :11:44.you think. -- tell him what you think. He has asked a question. I
:11:44. > :11:51.cannot do on my own but what I am trying to do is to put in place
:11:52. > :11:57.legislation... Or a day you repeat the question. Here is his question
:11:57. > :12:02.again. Go ahead. If that woman wants to be a prostitute, why can't
:12:02. > :12:07.she be a prostitute, why do you have to try and stop her? It should
:12:07. > :12:13.be her decision not anyone else's decision. The must have listened to
:12:13. > :12:18.what I said at the start. What we have said is the majority of women
:12:18. > :12:25.who are in prostitution have been trafficked. Or what majority is
:12:26. > :12:29.that? Are I understand your agenda and you are here to give the ritzy
:12:29. > :12:38.glitzy side of this industry. What you're not prepared to do is talk
:12:38. > :12:42.about the victims. This is alien to you. Are you aware that the vast
:12:42. > :12:47.majority of women who were trafficked are trafficked in for
:12:47. > :12:57.sexual exploitation? You must be aware of that. But you have decided
:12:57. > :13:04.
:13:04. > :13:08.to turn a blind driver stuck that When this young lady came to me, I
:13:08. > :13:16.could have easily turned a blind eye. I have a duty of
:13:16. > :13:20.responsibility. As do I. You are placing sex workers in danger. 1000
:13:20. > :13:26.sex workers will have their lives in danger if your bill goes through.
:13:26. > :13:32.That is rubbish. I am protecting women. I am the voice for those --
:13:32. > :13:37.I am the voice for those who have no voice. You have carried out
:13:37. > :13:42.research of this, what do you think? I think that our research
:13:42. > :13:48.found out the opposite picture than that the one that Lord Morrow seems
:13:48. > :13:54.to have on the basis of no evidence. The evidence is a minority of women
:13:54. > :13:58.are traffic to and there majority decide to do so. It is true that
:13:58. > :14:03.that majority of people traffic are traffic in the sex industry, but
:14:03. > :14:07.the most important data is the minority of women are forced.
:14:07. > :14:14.Criminalisation of clients would push the sex industry underground
:14:14. > :14:19.and make it more difficult for sex workers to reach out to vital and
:14:19. > :14:26.violence and health services. It would be to the detriment of sex
:14:26. > :14:32.workers. It pays probably in terms of propaganda to say it would help
:14:32. > :14:37.sex workers, but it wouldn't. you very much. If you want to pick
:14:37. > :14:43.up the phone, the numbers are on the screen. Mary is on the line.
:14:43. > :14:50.You were a prostitute, is that right? That is right. You would
:14:50. > :14:55.like to speak to Laura? First of all, I would like to say the same a
:14:55. > :14:59.punter that would be with Laura tomorrow night would be with a
:14:59. > :15:05.trafficked woman. The punters do not ask the girls if they are OK or
:15:05. > :15:11.if they are traffic. No. 2, I don't know where Laura is working, it is
:15:11. > :15:17.certainly not in our island. There the end of the day, if we are raped,
:15:17. > :15:23.which I was, I would not go to the police because I would be arrested.
:15:23. > :15:29.Saying that, it is OK for the man. We are not against prostitutes, we
:15:29. > :15:36.are fighting for equal rights. The man should be prosecuted. It is not
:15:36. > :15:41.right to be able to sell human flesh. Laura, speak to Mary.
:15:41. > :15:46.think you are mistaken. Punters are more than happy to go forward on an
:15:46. > :15:54.anonymous basis to report anything they find untoward. These are human
:15:54. > :16:00.beings, not animals all pistes. Secondly... How do they care if all
:16:00. > :16:04.they want is sex? They do care. They have money in their pocket and
:16:04. > :16:14.use your body and walk away. They don't use my body, they use my
:16:14. > :16:16.
:16:16. > :16:21.skills. I am a 5 ft 9 dominatrix. Secondly, to address your other
:16:21. > :16:26.question there, where I work in the north of Ireland, I do indeed. I
:16:26. > :16:30.have worked in Belfast for the last three days. I am hearing on the
:16:30. > :16:38.grapevine that there will be a police environment on mass in
:16:38. > :16:41.August? Yes, I will be back in August. Do you know what, for the
:16:41. > :16:46.people in this audience who are laughing, and there are few of you,
:16:46. > :16:53.what if it was your sister? Seriously. What if it was your
:16:53. > :16:57.sisters selling her body for sex? Or indeed brother and there was
:16:57. > :17:04.some stranger who happen to have enough money to take her, by her
:17:04. > :17:08.and then walk away from her? Would you really be laughing? Quite a few
:17:08. > :17:16.of you laughed then. Are any of you prepared to speak up now? I don't
:17:16. > :17:23.know if you laugh, hello. Let's get a microphone to you. I am a
:17:23. > :17:32.freelance journalist. I have spoken to several other women in the
:17:32. > :17:36.business. I have friends who are in the business, one is a guy whose
:17:36. > :17:41.customers are women and one is a woman whose customers are men and
:17:41. > :17:46.women. On both sides of the Atlantic, customers tell me it is
:17:46. > :17:50.free choice. The ones I have interviewed here emphasise that, if
:17:50. > :17:55.you criminalise the purchasing of sex, they will push the victims
:17:55. > :17:59.that are trafficked further away because both the customers and
:17:59. > :18:05.consenting prostitutes will be scared to tell the police if they
:18:05. > :18:14.feel like they will be criminalised and sent to jail. OK. There is
:18:14. > :18:18.someone appear. Hello, with a blonde hair. I honestly don't think
:18:18. > :18:23.Lord Murrow, I think you are wrong. It will push it underground and
:18:23. > :18:29.women's lives will be more at risk. I have had friends in the past he
:18:29. > :18:34.were in the business. I don't judge anybody in any way, but with the
:18:34. > :18:41.police and working with them, they felt safer. Do you not get a sense
:18:41. > :18:46.that she was glamorising it? That is her choice and her job. As a
:18:46. > :18:50.society we put Maugham's around everything. To be fair to Lord
:18:50. > :18:55.Morrow, what he is doing here is saying he wants to protect women
:18:55. > :19:01.who might be trafficked and also, you are saying, it is not right for
:19:01. > :19:06.a man, because he has money, to use a woman for sex. Is that fair?
:19:06. > :19:10.me try and answer. She says that this will drive it underground.
:19:10. > :19:17.That has not been experienced in Sweden. That has not happened in
:19:17. > :19:23.Sweden. Let me say something else... This is not Sweden. Police have
:19:23. > :19:31.different problems here. Hold on. My Bill is modelled on the Swedish
:19:31. > :19:36.model. It is not exactly the idea. Let me say this, when this
:19:37. > :19:42.legislation was introduced in Sweden, the then head of the police
:19:42. > :19:47.in Stockholm was opposed to the introduction of the legislation
:19:47. > :19:53.however, years later when it came to his retirement, what did he say?
:19:53. > :19:58.He said... Let me finish. He said, when this was introduced, I was
:19:58. > :20:03.opposed to this. I now acknowledge that this is good legislation,
:20:03. > :20:10.effective legislation and he said he should not have opposed it.
:20:10. > :20:15.want to head to hour studio now. Nice to talk to you. You are
:20:15. > :20:20.disabled and sitting in a wheelchair tonight. You lost your
:20:20. > :20:25.virginity to a prostitute when you were 25. Why did you decide to do
:20:25. > :20:29.that? Because I wanted that sexual experience for myself. I was
:20:29. > :20:34.surrounded by all of my friends having this experience. Just
:20:34. > :20:39.because I was in a wheelchair, that was a huge barrier between me and
:20:39. > :20:44.one to him that experience. It is not just that experience, these
:20:44. > :20:49.women of providing a service of intimacy and human contact. As far
:20:49. > :20:58.as Lord Moreau is concerned, yes I agree with human trafficking, but
:20:58. > :21:02.get back in your box. Start to see the human side because, you know, I
:21:02. > :21:07.think you are coming from facts and figures but you are stuttering all
:21:07. > :21:11.over the place. As soon as you have real facts and figures coming from
:21:11. > :21:21.the human heart, then you come back to us and say what you will do.
:21:21. > :21:28.Until then, just go back in your box. Lord Morro? Let me say this. I
:21:29. > :21:34.want to say this to Astor. My bill does not discriminate. It would
:21:34. > :21:44.criminalise him. Hold on a moment. Sometimes they are some things that
:21:44. > :21:46.
:21:46. > :21:53.are just not acceptable of doing. No, no, No. Let me finish. Let me
:21:53. > :21:58.say this. I happen to believe that everybody is equal in the law and
:21:58. > :22:03.equally subject to the law. I just happen to believe that. You think
:22:03. > :22:08.this is a sin, that's what this is about. It seems to be that whenever
:22:09. > :22:16.anyone in this country raises an issue of what would be deemed a
:22:16. > :22:21.moral issue, they are penalised, penalised -- demonised and Paul to
:22:21. > :22:26.pieces. Quite frankly, I don't mind being pulled to pieces if it is
:22:26. > :22:34.something I strip feel strongly about. I will not be deterred for
:22:34. > :22:39.speaking out for victims. I believe that this piece of legislation can
:22:39. > :22:47.be very effective and can bring good and protect the victims of
:22:47. > :22:54.human trafficking. That is what it is all about. Fair enough. Let me
:22:54. > :22:59.say this. You keep turning it around. I am not. Your bill does
:22:59. > :23:07.not just cover people who have suffered from human trafficking. It
:23:07. > :23:11.also covers people like Astor who is -- he was a 25 year-old disabled
:23:11. > :23:17.man when he decided he wanted that the human experience of having sex.
:23:17. > :23:21.He decided he wanted to buy it as a consenting adult from a consenting
:23:21. > :23:26.prostitute. You would criminalise him, give him a criminal record,
:23:26. > :23:31.would in due? It is asked her telling me tonight that these women
:23:31. > :23:39.he has used, none of them were coerced, none of them were
:23:39. > :23:43.trafficked? Would you criminalise him? I am asking him the question.
:23:43. > :23:50.Is he telling me tonight that all those women that he has used, none
:23:50. > :23:54.of them have been traffic? Absolutely not. I tell you why, I
:23:54. > :24:00.am friends with them all mouth and I know exactly what they are doing
:24:00. > :24:09.and I have met all their families. When I spoke about the lady that I
:24:09. > :24:15.met who was trafficked from Europe into the Irish Republic... Astor,
:24:15. > :24:19.can I ask you a question? Because you are a disabled man, doesn't
:24:19. > :24:25.mean that you have to buy sex, does it? Some people would argue that
:24:25. > :24:31.you should have waited for someone to fall in love with you and to
:24:31. > :24:35.respect you and your body for who you are. Absolutely. And actually
:24:35. > :24:41.there would be 25 year-old people who are not disabled he waited
:24:41. > :24:46.until someone loved them. Maybe what you did was cheap? Well, you
:24:46. > :24:51.know, cheap, whatever it was, I wanted human contact. When you go
:24:51. > :24:57.outside of the door and greet someone, you can go up to them and
:24:57. > :25:01.hug them automatically. I can't. I need to ask someone to do that. In
:25:01. > :25:08.life it is a lot harder for me to do these things having a disability.
:25:08. > :25:17.I would like to ask Lord Moreau one more question, where do you get
:25:17. > :25:22.human contact from? I am not going down that route. You wouldn't do,
:25:22. > :25:28.would you? Know, I wouldn't. He should be afforded the same amount
:25:28. > :25:38.of respect as everyone else. Is it the religious thing? That is what
:25:38. > :25:45.we have to think about. I am in a very happily married relationship.
:25:45. > :25:52.Paul, from the Evangelical Alliance. This is an important topic. I
:25:52. > :25:57.broadly agree with Lord Morro's built with the focus on
:25:57. > :26:00.prostitution for trafficked men and women. We are concerned that it
:26:00. > :26:05.flattens prostitution. If a man uses the services of a traffic
:26:05. > :26:09.woman who has not chosen to be there and has been subject to force,
:26:09. > :26:14.we would call that rape. The maximum penalty at the minute is
:26:14. > :26:19.just a fine and we don't think that is acceptable. What if he faced
:26:19. > :26:28.going on the sex offenders' register? With your hand up, go
:26:28. > :26:33.ahead. I can't hear you, wait until we get your microphone. You were
:26:34. > :26:38.saying there were 1000 sex workers, are they paying tax? Do they
:26:38. > :26:43.contribute to the moral aspect? think we do an important social job.
:26:43. > :26:50.I myself do a lot of work with disabled clients and it is very
:26:50. > :26:55.rewarding. And enriching. I to pay taxes and I pay National Insurance
:26:55. > :26:59.as well. I struggle with the notion that it is morally superior for me
:26:59. > :27:09.to sit at home and claim benefits than to go out and earn a living
:27:09. > :27:16.
:27:16. > :27:22.I have been in the industry for 20 years and I have met a lot of
:27:22. > :27:30.workers. If you are talking a human trafficking, why do you target the
:27:30. > :27:36.human traffickers? If they were not there to start off with, wide you
:27:36. > :27:40.not target them instead of the men? We feel this is the most effective
:27:40. > :27:48.way to tackle human trafficking and to bring relief and support to
:27:48. > :27:53.those who have been coerced into this industry. We are out of time.
:27:53. > :27:59.We have lots of vehicles to continue the discussion on the
:27:59. > :28:08.known and radio show tomorrow at 9 o'clock and on Twitter. Thank you
:28:08. > :28:13.to Lawro and Lord Morrow. -- Laura. This is what is still to come on
:28:13. > :28:20.tonight's programme. Is smacking your own kid child abuse or
:28:20. > :28:27.sensible parenting? My next guest lost his eyesight at
:28:27. > :28:32.22. He then ran six marathons across the Gobi Devon -- Gobi
:28:32. > :28:36.desert totally blind. In July 2010 p fell from a second storey window
:28:36. > :28:45.which left him totally paralysed from the waist down. This is one
:28:45. > :28:52.hell of a story. Please welcome Mark Pollock.
:28:52. > :28:57.Hello, mark. Good to see you. I have been wanting you on this show
:28:57. > :29:04.for quite a long time and it is my pleasure to speak to. You have an
:29:04. > :29:09.incredible story and an inspiring story. You lost your sight
:29:09. > :29:14.completely in 1998. What happened? I was born very short-sighted which
:29:14. > :29:20.gives you week retinas. I had to avoid getting a knock on the head
:29:20. > :29:24.growing up. When I was 22 I was at university in Dublin. I was rowing
:29:24. > :29:30.internationally and I had a job offer to start in London. In the
:29:30. > :29:35.space of two weeks with a detached retina I went blind. Very quick but
:29:35. > :29:42.I had lots of experience of being in hospital. What is it like to go
:29:42. > :29:49.blind? Well, you lose your eyesight but you also lose your identity
:29:49. > :29:52.when you require a disability. Already sided. I was in
:29:52. > :29:57.universities and rowing and had a job offer. As soon as I went blind
:29:57. > :30:06.eye had none of that. I didn't think blind people did anything and
:30:06. > :30:15.suddenly I was one of them. So you got very down? Denial first of all.
:30:15. > :30:21.Anger, miracle Sea King, self-pity, all of these things in sequence.
:30:21. > :30:26.take my sight for granted. You wake up in the morning and you see some
:30:27. > :30:32.light. You walk outside. I love the sky. I thinks guys are incredible.
:30:32. > :30:40.I am trying to to imagine now I've it was taken away from me
:30:40. > :30:50.immediately, bang. It is not easy. There is no doubt about it. But it
:30:50. > :30:53.is absolute and final so it is one of those situations where there is
:30:53. > :30:59.little point sitting around and talking about it. I had to deal
:30:59. > :31:06.with it. And I had to try and find a new life with blindness. This is
:31:06. > :31:12.where your story is absolutely incredible. He fought back. What
:31:12. > :31:19.did you do in the Gobi desert? was six marathons in a week in the
:31:19. > :31:23.Gobi desert carrying a pack. How? met a guy who had done one of these
:31:23. > :31:27.races and just like you I said, how do you do that, it sounds
:31:27. > :31:34.impossible. He said I have just done one so it is possible. The
:31:34. > :31:38.question is, is it possible for you? I asked myself that question.
:31:38. > :31:45.I was into sport and challenges. I suppose in the beginning it was a
:31:45. > :31:50.way of rebuilding or creating a new identity and I did it through sport.
:31:50. > :31:54.Literally how did you hold on to him through the desert? Yes, my
:31:54. > :32:02.guided techniques have been developing over the years. I
:32:02. > :32:07.literally held on to my team mate's elbow. I was hanging on to his
:32:07. > :32:11.backpack and we had to come up with a new system. I have stupid
:32:11. > :32:16.questions and don't answer them if you don't want it. I'm thinking, if
:32:16. > :32:20.someone really gets on your nerves, what do you do if you are hanging
:32:20. > :32:25.on, if you want to go to the toilet and you want some time on your own
:32:26. > :32:30.in the Gobi desert, what do you do? You get a good team mate for a
:32:30. > :32:34.start. You realise who you are going to rely on. I have had
:32:34. > :32:39.brilliant team mates. I have had guys who have had to do exactly
:32:39. > :32:46.what I have done. We have been pushing ourselves to the limits. I
:32:46. > :32:52.have had fantastic team mates. It is so cliche but I literally could
:32:52. > :32:58.not do without them. By human bond between you and the only human
:32:58. > :33:03.beings. It is why I have been involved in sport. When you go to
:33:03. > :33:06.the limit with someone, when you push yourself to failure, to the
:33:06. > :33:13.brink of failure and you come through it and you get to the end,
:33:13. > :33:16.in some ways, it is the hardship of adventure racing that provides the
:33:17. > :33:23.great feelings of success and that bond. The Gobi desert was not
:33:23. > :33:31.enough. In 2004 you took part in the North Pole marathon and you
:33:31. > :33:40.met? Sir Ranulph Fiennes. A and they needed a marathon in the Dead
:33:40. > :33:44.Sea and then you went to the South Pole. You mad man. I was sharing a
:33:44. > :33:51.tent with a Sir Ranulph Fiennes, the greatest living explorer
:33:51. > :33:56.according to the Guinness Book of Records and I felt like a tourist
:33:56. > :34:01.and I felt I should do a proper expedition. South Pole was the 10th
:34:01. > :34:05.anniversary of me going blind. We were racing Ben Fogle and James
:34:05. > :34:09.Cracknell, the Norwegian special forces, the Royal Marines, it was
:34:09. > :34:15.my way of putting the blind us behind me. Did it ever get really
:34:15. > :34:21.hairy out there? Simon in my team nearly lost his fingers. There were
:34:21. > :34:25.crevasses. It was -50 which was described to me by an ex-Royal
:34:25. > :34:31.Marine as life-threatening the cold. If you stopped for a moment you
:34:31. > :34:38.could feel the blood disappearing from your arms and legs. What is it
:34:38. > :34:46.like when you are in the South Pole? It is not a and short lived
:34:46. > :34:52.champagne popping moment. Beware felt was a sense of contentment, a
:34:52. > :34:56.long-lasting sense of contentment. It was a year, 43 days, we had
:34:57. > :35:01.really pushed it and we had got there. There was a long lasting
:35:01. > :35:06.sense of contentment. It was still lasting a year, 18 months after the
:35:06. > :35:11.South Pole. You have had the tragedy of losing your site, you
:35:11. > :35:14.have had the highs of being an incredible person and doing
:35:14. > :35:20.something that the majority of people in this audience could not
:35:20. > :35:26.do and I could not do, I do not think anybody could find the
:35:26. > :35:31.strength I needed. To I think they could. Well, we will agree to
:35:31. > :35:39.disagree. Then in 2010, another tragedy of the scale. What
:35:39. > :35:44.happened? I was not in any harsh environment. I was at a rowing
:35:44. > :35:49.regatta that I used to race at. I fell from a second storey window.
:35:49. > :35:53.The next thing I knew was I was in intensive care with a fractured
:35:53. > :35:59.skull, boots and my brain, fractured ribs and I could not feel
:35:59. > :36:05.or move anything from my stomach downwards. How did you fall? I hit
:36:05. > :36:11.my head off the ground pretty hard and I don't remember. We can see
:36:11. > :36:14.the scar now on screen. You do not know how it happened but you ended
:36:14. > :36:20.up in intensive care and when you eventually became conscious you
:36:20. > :36:29.would be told you had damaged your spinal cord? I think I instantly
:36:29. > :36:34.knew it. Instantly when I eventually woke up. How did you
:36:34. > :36:40.know it? Can't feel to move your legs and you just know, you just
:36:40. > :36:45.know deep down and that is paralysis. I was pumped full of
:36:45. > :36:50.morphine, I was hallucinating, I did not know where I was but I knew
:36:50. > :36:58.from the very earliest moments that I was paralysed. The blindness
:36:58. > :37:03.seems to have fallen some way into the background. The Palace this was
:37:03. > :37:08.actually one of my worst fears. I said I could handle the blindness
:37:08. > :37:17.but if I was paralysed that I could handle it. Could you handle it,
:37:17. > :37:26.initially? No. Or that spirit is drained out of you and you have got
:37:26. > :37:35.to be thinking, why me? Funny, I did not think, whiny? Maybe I did
:37:35. > :37:45.at some point. - a whiny? Were you angry? It did not seem to happen
:37:45. > :37:46.
:37:46. > :37:54.like the blind us. -- of the blindness. I was just really sad.
:37:54. > :38:01.For a really long time. I was in hospital for 18 months. The first
:38:01. > :38:06.six months of it I was in bed, infections, three stone of body
:38:06. > :38:12.weight lost, I just could not see a way forward. How you had been
:38:12. > :38:20.fighting your blindness through all of this adventure, somehow,
:38:20. > :38:25.whatever it is, God, the world, but luck, it had then taken away from
:38:25. > :38:32.you what you had been fighting back with, the power of movement?
:38:32. > :38:37.way I'd dealt with my blindness was I went and raced head to head
:38:37. > :38:43.against guys who were proper adventurers and I did it despite
:38:43. > :38:48.the blindness. I thought all of that was gone. The idea of a blind,
:38:48. > :38:57.paralysed adventurer racing, at best I felt I might be able to be
:38:57. > :39:03.pushed down the road. So, I have to say her kept asking people in
:39:03. > :39:10.intensive care, did I really go to the South Pole? Going to the south
:39:10. > :39:20.polar valued so much I probably have thought it was good not to go
:39:20. > :39:27.again. And in the capacity of you as human being, somewhere you find
:39:27. > :39:31.another little bet of strength, another little bit of energy? And
:39:31. > :39:38.what you did was you decided to fight again and you decided to
:39:38. > :39:44.fight to walk. I just want to show us all at home what Mark did. He
:39:44. > :39:54.used robotic legs. Let's just have a look at this and then Mark, you
:39:54. > :40:00.
:40:00. > :40:08.can talk us through. We are watching you. Chase it. I am going
:40:08. > :40:14.too far forwards on my right crutch. There is a reason why this is hard.
:40:14. > :40:21.That is in America, whereas it? is in Californian via San Francisco.
:40:21. > :40:25.I had my accident in 2010. Those robotic legs were an invention.
:40:25. > :40:33.They were in Time magazine as one of the top inventions of that year.
:40:33. > :40:38.The following year there were clinical trials. At the start of
:40:38. > :40:42.last year I actually got an e-mail from a guy in Bangor who worked out
:40:42. > :40:48.there. He invited me out to go and have a go on them. What was it like
:40:48. > :40:52.walking on them? He was awful! I cannot feel anything from my
:40:52. > :40:58.stomach down so it was like floating in mid-air and I could not
:40:58. > :41:05.see the horizon but I was walking. I have been working on them for 12
:41:05. > :41:09.months now and just on Monday I took 2196 steps in an hour so I am
:41:09. > :41:19.practically running in the gym now. That is in a year.
:41:19. > :41:24.
:41:24. > :41:31.You are running in the gym? You were prepared to show me up
:41:31. > :41:35.tonight! It is improving. What I am doing now, my new adventure is to
:41:35. > :41:40.try and walk again, robotics, training, maybe there will be a
:41:40. > :41:45.medical intervention. I do not know if this will work for me, it may or
:41:45. > :41:50.may not. But I want to add to the story and the research of spinal
:41:50. > :41:57.cord injury. I want to see someone else in future will not have to sit
:41:57. > :42:01.in these chairs or lie in bed. still have hope? You have to have
:42:01. > :42:08.hope. It is really important to accept way you are today. I have to
:42:08. > :42:14.accept I cannot see, I cannot walk. Are you happy? I am happy 99 % of
:42:14. > :42:17.the time. You have got to have hope. You have got to accept where you
:42:17. > :42:22.are and you have to be happy sitting somewhere between
:42:22. > :42:28.acceptance and hope. I have an amazing fiancee, amazing family,
:42:28. > :42:38.amazing friends. You went to an amazing school as well. This same
:42:38. > :42:48.
:42:48. > :42:52.Listen, it I wish I had the strength. I think, in the context
:42:52. > :42:59.of what we have been talking about in Northern Ireland over recent
:42:59. > :43:04.weeks and months, what we all want and you know that word want, to
:43:04. > :43:09.find someone like you who has the spirit and the strength to fight
:43:09. > :43:19.against adversity, all I can say is I admire you. You have a huge story
:43:19. > :43:20.
:43:20. > :43:26.to tell and thank you so much for coming into the studio. Thank you.
:43:26. > :43:30.Thank you very much. I would love you to tweet me
:43:30. > :43:35.tonight. When I go home I look up all of your tweets and I want to
:43:35. > :43:45.know what you think about Mark and his story. He will see the address
:43:45. > :44:09.
:44:09. > :44:14.on your screen. Let's just remind Now, the Tory justice minister got
:44:14. > :44:20.into a row at the weekend. When he said that he smacked his kids and
:44:20. > :44:25.stood by doing so. This is his -- Chris Grayling. He said it sends a
:44:25. > :44:30.message. Currently parents are not banned from smacking their children.
:44:30. > :44:36.Let's discuss this tonight with Patricia Lesley and Mary Russell
:44:36. > :44:40.from the family Education Trust. Mary, what do you think? I think it
:44:40. > :44:46.is a thing that many parents have used and will continue to use as a
:44:46. > :44:50.means of discipline. Smacking is not an assault, it is not an attack,
:44:50. > :44:56.it is not violence against the child, it is a means that parents
:44:56. > :45:00.have used and will continue to use as a means of discipline. Patricia?
:45:00. > :45:04.I am not here to demonise parents, what I am saying is there are
:45:04. > :45:09.alternative ways of disciplining a child instead of hitting them. That
:45:10. > :45:16.is what I would like to see in the legislation changed. D believe in
:45:16. > :45:21.choice? This is not about denying parental choice, it is about
:45:21. > :45:25.supporting parents in other ways of discipline. Is smacking wrong?
:45:25. > :45:30.believe it is because sometimes it sends the wrong message.
:45:31. > :45:34.decriminalise it? We want to see a change in legislation. I want to
:45:34. > :45:40.support parents and give them alternative ways of disciplining
:45:40. > :45:45.children. You use the word choice, allow parents to make choices, but
:45:45. > :45:50.you would criminalise smacking so that parents have no choice? That
:45:50. > :45:55.is the issue, it is about the protection of children. Would you
:45:55. > :46:00.criminalise it? Yes, if the laws changed. So there is no choice for
:46:00. > :46:05.the parent. There is a choice on how to discipline. They don't have
:46:05. > :46:10.to smack to do that. The people who campaign against smacking are no
:46:11. > :46:15.wiser than the parent, they are not gifted with any prior wisdom or
:46:15. > :46:19.more experienced. That is the first thing. They are not in a position
:46:19. > :46:24.to lecture. The second thing I would like to say is that you and
:46:24. > :46:28.others to campaign, are saying they are doing so to protect children.
:46:28. > :46:33.But she would happily preside over a situation where a child's parents
:46:33. > :46:37.can be dragged through the courts, there family will become known to
:46:37. > :46:44.social services, the child itself will see their parents authority
:46:44. > :46:48.diminished in their eyes. How hard is it OK to hit? In my opinion, I
:46:48. > :46:56.would be inclined to make an impression on a child and I don't
:46:56. > :47:03.mean physical. How hard? So it is felt. To the extent of some pain?
:47:03. > :47:07.Some pain, yes. How much pain? parent, I have smacked my children
:47:07. > :47:13.and I don't see anything wrong. Would it be all right for me to
:47:13. > :47:20.slap you tonight to a certain extent of pain? No. Would it be all
:47:20. > :47:24.right for me to wipe your nose? No, because I have no
:47:24. > :47:27.responsibility over you. I had to think about that for a few seconds.
:47:27. > :47:37.They are things parents do for their children that they would not
:47:37. > :47:41.do for an adult. Let's go to the second row here. What I want to say
:47:41. > :47:46.to the commissioner is, I understand the angle you are coming
:47:46. > :47:51.at and I respect it. Protecting children is paramount, however the
:47:51. > :47:56.only way you are going to ensure or you think you can support parents
:47:56. > :48:01.is when a mother has given birth to a child, maybe had a traumatic
:48:01. > :48:07.experience, arrives home with her baby and have Superman is standing
:48:07. > :48:12.at the door promising to stay with her until she is 18. You can't
:48:12. > :48:16.condemn every parent. It is wrong to condemn every parent he taps
:48:16. > :48:20.their child on the restore the back of the legs when they can't
:48:20. > :48:25.verbalise their reason why they don't want that child to go there.
:48:25. > :48:33.Mary would inflict a certain level of pain, would you? That is not
:48:33. > :48:36.what she said. She did. Pain is not what you want to inflict. All you
:48:36. > :48:43.want to do, there is a certain point when a child is young and
:48:43. > :48:48.they do not have the capacity to understand danger and when you are
:48:48. > :48:52.a parent and you see that happen, you are fearful. To be fair, I
:48:52. > :48:58.understand your point, but I protect my child and I always will.
:48:58. > :49:04.What I find offensive when I know there are children being beaten and
:49:04. > :49:09.having been strapped and all sorts of terrible abuse and also the
:49:09. > :49:14.child you see in the street his parents verbally abuses that child
:49:14. > :49:19.and humiliate that child, that parent is not parenting. The parent
:49:19. > :49:24.he taps their child to stop them running and the road, that is
:49:24. > :49:31.parenting. The issue is, when does the tap become a smack become the
:49:31. > :49:35.punch. If you are a loving parent, you will know when it will be.
:49:35. > :49:42.cannot condemn rational parenting from people who do not know how to
:49:42. > :49:49.be rational. The guy with the beard. Is hitting your child not
:49:49. > :49:54.reinforcing the point that violence works?
:49:54. > :50:00.You are using the term hit a child. Hitting, striking, we are not
:50:00. > :50:10.talking about an assault, we are talking about a smack or a tap.
:50:10. > :50:10.
:50:10. > :50:16.tap? A tap yes. They smack or a tap. Stephen, you may shake your head...
:50:16. > :50:20.I am not shaking anything. You can use what they have a word you want.
:50:20. > :50:28.It is physical contact to a point where a child feels a degree of
:50:28. > :50:33.pain. It is not striking. It is not tickling, is it? No. I have to say
:50:33. > :50:38.another thing, Patricia has mentioned alternative methods. Now,
:50:38. > :50:43.the naughty step, withdrawing privileges, all of that, that can
:50:43. > :50:53.have a detrimental effect on the child. A smack is over and done
:50:53. > :50:58.with. I will come on to that. Goal here, purple cardigan. Mary, do you
:50:58. > :51:04.think installing this fear into a young child, how do you justify
:51:04. > :51:10.that as good parental practice? do you justify a... Do you want to
:51:10. > :51:17.repeat the question? Installing that kind of fear... Installing
:51:17. > :51:23.fear? Fear of what? Fear of being hit, fear of doing something small
:51:23. > :51:28.in their life that will get them in trouble. If you are parents, there
:51:28. > :51:37.will be certain situations where you have to instil fear. He is
:51:37. > :51:43.lilies on the telephone. Dull ahead. I feel that, as a parent, I have
:51:43. > :51:47.the right to discipline my child. To say that parents would be facing
:51:47. > :51:51.social services, that is the big fear for a parent to have the worry
:51:51. > :51:55.that they can't discipline their children without social services
:51:55. > :52:02.turning up. I don't think that is for anyone to make that decision.
:52:02. > :52:06.How old are your kids? Widdell to his seven and my son is too.
:52:06. > :52:13.hard is it -- how hard with you hit your seven-year-old. I would smack
:52:13. > :52:19.them on the hand. They are still learning. With a smack to the hand,
:52:19. > :52:26.he understands that what he is doing isn't right. It happened to
:52:26. > :52:34.me. Would you criminalise that? issue is, does he understand? You
:52:34. > :52:44.are saying the reason... We can't hear you. Hold on. He won't go back
:52:44. > :52:48.and touch the radiator. There is a guy here in the blue shirt. Article
:52:48. > :52:52.19 of the UN conventions states that children have the right to be
:52:52. > :52:57.free from physical harm. We were talking about women having rights,
:52:57. > :53:03.we have to understand that children have rights. Parents have right,
:53:03. > :53:08.yes, but it is illegal for an adult to hit an adult, so why are people
:53:08. > :53:18.trying to legalise adults hitting children? Where his Jeffrey. What
:53:18. > :53:20.
:53:20. > :53:24.do you think? This is total nonsense. Thanks very much! We are
:53:24. > :53:29.not talking about violence or people being punched. That is
:53:29. > :53:35.already illegal under the 2004 Children's Act. We are talking
:53:35. > :53:40.about parents using common sense. Violence is not to me a cake -- in
:53:40. > :53:45.the equation. It is about parents making it known to do or not to do
:53:45. > :53:50.things. Chris Grayling said it was about providing a message. Not
:53:50. > :53:57.something we may leave. Is there not a better alternative? Often
:53:57. > :54:04.there is not a better alternative. Let me give you an example, at
:54:04. > :54:11.Stephen. We once rented a house in Spain and our child promptly fell
:54:11. > :54:16.into the Paul. Had we told him in advance, are we it not sensible for
:54:16. > :54:21.same, stay away from the swimming pool otherwise you will know about
:54:21. > :54:25.it. The consequence was he almost drowned. You give messages clearly
:54:25. > :54:34.and when they put themselves in danger, sometimes the ultimate
:54:34. > :54:38.sanction is to use a clip or a smack. You talk about the extent.
:54:38. > :54:43.The 2004 Act says no parent should put more than a red impression on
:54:43. > :54:47.the skin of a child. You don't think like that. You don't realise
:54:47. > :54:50.how exasperating children can be and often language does not work
:54:50. > :54:54.when you are dealing with a seven or eight year-old child who does
:54:54. > :55:00.not understand the new ones of language. That happens later and
:55:00. > :55:08.that is when you use a language. Not when you are dealing with
:55:08. > :55:14.irrational and stupid children when they are very young. There is a guy
:55:14. > :55:21.up the back. White T-shirt. judges what a smack is and then
:55:21. > :55:28.when it becomes child abuse? What nonsense! What do you mean
:55:28. > :55:35.nonsense? That question is not a nonsense question. It is very valid.
:55:35. > :55:43.Isn't it? You need to differentiate between the two totally different
:55:43. > :55:48.things. Become a parent and experience it yourself. I am not
:55:49. > :55:54.saying there are bad parents. are bad parents! Pitch you can't
:55:54. > :55:59.condemn everybody. Give Patricia a tad -- a chance. I understand what
:56:00. > :56:04.it is like, I am a parent, I have five children. They all have
:56:04. > :56:11.different personalities, but I did not have to smack them to teach
:56:11. > :56:16.them. This lady at the back. smacking your children, you are
:56:16. > :56:20.reinforcing that violence is acceptable. Thank you very much. In
:56:21. > :56:24.the green shirt at the back. disciplined me as a child and I
:56:24. > :56:29.believe it has contributed to me becoming a respectable citizen and
:56:29. > :56:34.I am thankful for getting smacked. What my mother did to me, I will
:56:35. > :56:43.never forget. Didn't smack me enough, he said that? Everybody
:56:43. > :56:48.said that. What happened to me, I was up in the toilet in my house
:56:48. > :56:52.and I remember my mother shouting up the stairs, that is it, I am
:56:52. > :57:01.ringing the home, I am putting you in the home. I came running down
:57:01. > :57:07.the stairs. Who else have we got? Where are you. Go ahead. I am a
:57:07. > :57:14.mother myself and I am anti- smacking. I agree with Patricia. I
:57:14. > :57:17.come back to your caller who said just this match or a tap, these are
:57:17. > :57:22.tiny little hands that are exploring and making things. To
:57:22. > :57:27.smack them, it is just wrong. Violence breeds violence. That is
:57:27. > :57:32.your right to make that decision. You are entitled to decide not to
:57:32. > :57:36.smack. The debate is whether you can be trusted with control or
:57:36. > :57:41.whether any of us can be trusted with the care and control of our
:57:41. > :57:44.children. Some who say parents do not have the intellect to make a
:57:44. > :57:53.distinction between a smack as disciplined or employing other
:57:53. > :58:00.methods. The guy appear. We have one minute left. It does discipline.
:58:00. > :58:05.He differentiates, the parent does. If a parent hits their kid with a
:58:05. > :58:11.fist, they are stupid and a bad parent. If the kid do something bad
:58:11. > :58:20.and you tap them on the hand, a soft slap, it is harmless enough.
:58:20. > :58:24.We are out of time. Give Patricia and Mary around of applause. Here
:58:24. > :58:30.is the score, please continue talking to us on Twitter. The