:00:07. > :00:10.Slaughter on the Shankill. It's the 20th anniversary of the Shankill
:00:11. > :00:14.bombing, the IRA atrocity that killed men, women and children. It
:00:15. > :00:18.was an appalling attack in an appalling week in Northern Ireland.
:00:19. > :00:24.It's another day for remembering, for grief and anger. And it's a day
:00:25. > :00:26.for asking, can we ever move on from the Troubles without leaving
:00:27. > :00:34.victims behind? Also on the show:
:00:35. > :00:38.Former Westlife star Shane Filan tells me how he faced financial
:00:39. > :00:43.ruin and is trying to rebuild his life.
:00:44. > :00:47.And the Stormont beauty contest row. Don't enter if you're too fat, too
:00:48. > :00:48.small or too old. MLAs have quit as judges. Were they right to walk
:00:49. > :01:29.away? 20 years ago today two IRA men
:01:30. > :01:34.carried a bomb into a busy shop on the Shankill Road. The blast killed
:01:35. > :01:39.10 people, including one of the bombers. On Sunday a plaque was
:01:40. > :01:45.revealed in memory of the IRA man killed in the blast - Thomas Begley.
:01:46. > :01:53.The plaque says he died on active service. Victims families have
:01:54. > :02:00.rejected an apology from the surviving bomber. We will be
:02:01. > :02:09.talking to the family's of the victims 20 years on. They were
:02:10. > :02:18.lovely people. She was everything you would want in a wife. Atypical
:02:19. > :02:27.13-year-old. She was my sticking plaster. Everywhere I went, she
:02:28. > :02:37.went with me. She was a fun-loving character. She was always joking.
:02:38. > :02:44.It was a beautiful day. I had to go to the bank. Sharon asked me to
:02:45. > :02:48.drop her off at the shops. She went into the fish shop and I spoke to
:02:49. > :02:59.her through the window. I said to her I would see her in five minutes.
:03:00. > :03:07.She wasn't going into the fish shop, she was going into the fruit shop
:03:08. > :03:14.next door. I said to my son in the back of the car, what I wonder what
:03:15. > :03:19.is keeping your mother? My son said, here she comes now. And then the
:03:20. > :03:25.bomb went off. We heard the explosion and I ran and when I got
:03:26. > :03:39.outside there was Wrobel, dust, I couldn't see in front of me. We
:03:40. > :03:54.could see the crowds and... The ambulances... It was just... I knew,
:03:55. > :03:59.you know? There was nothing, just a collapsed shop. We were digging for
:04:00. > :04:08.what seemed an eternity and every now and again there was a shout for
:04:09. > :04:17.quiet. I kept saying, I can't find my daughter. Where was she? Was she
:04:18. > :04:20.able to get away? We went to the Royal because being a children's
:04:21. > :04:26.hospital, we thought she would be taken there. A couple of detective
:04:27. > :04:32.said we should follow them and we followed them to the mortuary.
:04:33. > :04:39.People huddling together, family by family. We were the last family to
:04:40. > :04:46.be told and as families were told, you could just hear the screams.
:04:47. > :04:51.About 10 o'clock that night we were really worried because the family
:04:52. > :05:10.had been around the hospitals. Then a phone call came and it was the
:05:11. > :05:22.police saying they had three bodies. We did the identification. We don't
:05:23. > :05:27.really talk about it. Sometimes it this time of the year, but if you
:05:28. > :05:33.keep talking about it, it will tie your insides in knots. They say
:05:34. > :05:42.time is a good healer, but I don't think so. If there was an apology
:05:43. > :05:50.from Sean Kelly, I would not accept it. Thomas Begley was not a hero.
:05:51. > :05:58.He was a coward, and murderer, a child killer. No words can say
:05:59. > :06:08.sorry. Commemorating him as a hero is a step too far. Had the Begley
:06:09. > :06:14.family had a short service on Sunday, that would have been
:06:15. > :06:25.different. They were not heroes, they were murderers.
:06:26. > :06:30.There will be many people in the studio who will want to speak about
:06:31. > :06:37.this tonight, and let us start of this evening with Gareth Hawkins.
:06:38. > :06:42.Hello. Thank you for coming. I know this is one of the first times you
:06:43. > :06:51.have ever spoken about this. Tell us what happened to you. I was 16
:06:52. > :06:58.years old at the time and it was myself and my girlfriend at the
:06:59. > :07:07.time. We were going to visit her family who lived in the Shankill.
:07:08. > :07:14.That date we decided to go shopping and to the cinema. We were just
:07:15. > :07:20.walking down the street, on the same side as the fish shop. We were
:07:21. > :07:29.walking down there and there was myself, my girlfriend and Our
:07:30. > :07:35.younger brothers. We passed the door of the fish shop, around the
:07:36. > :07:43.middle of the window. We were a couple of feet away and the bomb
:07:44. > :07:50.went off. One was the first thing you remember? I was unconscious and
:07:51. > :08:00.the first thing I remember was being covered in rubble from the
:08:01. > :08:07.neck down. I lost consciousness again and the next thing I remember
:08:08. > :08:17.was seeing these women just looking at me and screaming. Some women
:08:18. > :08:24.came with the White Tower walls and put them around my head. -- White
:08:25. > :08:37.Tower walls. The ambulance people came. They kept saying, we cannot
:08:38. > :08:43.wait, we cannot wait. Get him away. I was put into a black taxi and
:08:44. > :08:50.taken to the hospital. You found yourself in intensive care? Yes.
:08:51. > :08:54.Who were you with? When I woke up in intensive care, I couldn't use
:08:55. > :09:02.my right arm, but that was it. In the bed beside me was Jim Harrison
:09:03. > :09:15.who was also caught up in deep bomber. At the end of the ward was
:09:16. > :09:24.Sean Kelly. -- caught up in the bomb. He was fighting for his life,
:09:25. > :09:36.the man who left the bomb. He would say that he did care. He did not
:09:37. > :09:44.care. You must have bought over the years about him being so close to
:09:45. > :09:50.you in that hospital. There was a heavy police presence, according to
:09:51. > :09:55.my family, all around him. And people were only allowed in one at
:09:56. > :10:03.a time. There was police all about the place, but I personally did not
:10:04. > :10:11.know he was in the same ward as me until I was out of intensive care
:10:12. > :10:18.and put on another ward. I do not think too highly of him at all. We
:10:19. > :10:24.always hear about moving on, looking to the future. You are
:10:25. > :10:35.still living with the aftermath of this to this day. Yes. After the
:10:36. > :10:42.bomb, I had post-traumatic stress disorder. Until this day I am still
:10:43. > :10:58.on anti-depressants, just to pick me up and get me through. Where
:10:59. > :11:04.were you yesterday? I was working yesterday. I work in a pub. You
:11:05. > :11:12.were having a blast taken out of your head? I was. There is still a
:11:13. > :11:18.little bit left in there. What type of implant does it have on you when
:11:19. > :11:25.you hear that the men who did that I have described by some people as
:11:26. > :11:31.soldiers of Ireland? I can only speak for myself, I cannot speak
:11:32. > :11:43.for the family's of the other victims, but myself, I half
:11:44. > :11:50.expected from those type of people. I expect them to glorify each other.
:11:51. > :11:57.I don't think they have moved on. I don't think they will ever possibly
:11:58. > :12:07.move on. This is just a small minority, but the plaque that they
:12:08. > :12:17.have for Thomas Begley, the three people on that stage, I was not
:12:18. > :12:22.surprised by that. I expect it from those people. We will hopefully get
:12:23. > :12:26.views from all sides of the community. There were atrocities on
:12:27. > :12:40.all sides and I acknowledge her. If you do want to contact us, the
:12:41. > :12:46.details will appear on your screen. Is it possible to move on? It has
:12:47. > :12:50.to be. Given what happened to me, you would have thought it would be
:12:51. > :12:56.more difficult to move on, but faced with the choices I had back
:12:57. > :13:06.then when Sharon was killed, to me there was no other choice. We have
:13:07. > :13:14.to find a way of stepping up to the plate and moving on. 20 years on
:13:15. > :13:17.the Shankill bomb, 15 years from the Good Friday Agreement, to be
:13:18. > :13:22.honest with you, I don't think we are as far on as we should be. I
:13:23. > :13:31.don't know whose fault it is. I think some of our politicians play
:13:32. > :13:45.games with us. The Thomas Begley commemoration event was condemned
:13:46. > :13:52.by some. You can see how things are being played out. I have tried my
:13:53. > :13:57.hardest since Sharon was killed and after I had a couple of years
:13:58. > :14:04.chasing a Gerry Adams around, I can to the conclusion that the Troubles
:14:05. > :14:07.were not the fault of Thomas Begley and Sean Kelly. They played their
:14:08. > :14:15.part and they have to take responsibility, but they was a
:14:16. > :14:21.wider context. We grew up in a society where sectarian was rife.
:14:22. > :14:28.The people who murdered my wife were only five minutes away, but we
:14:29. > :14:36.didn't go to the same schools, go to the same shops, share anything.
:14:37. > :14:41.They may as well have been 5,000 miles away. I am not trying to
:14:42. > :14:46.excuse Thomas Begley and Sean Kelly because they were responsible for
:14:47. > :14:50.the Shankill bomb, but you cannot blame the Troubles in Northern
:14:51. > :15:07.Ireland on people like that. There was a wider context.
:15:08. > :15:12.I ask everyone to put themselves in the place of the families for ten
:15:13. > :15:15.seconds and ask themselves how they would feel about what happened to
:15:16. > :15:21.those little children and the mothers and the fathers and say can
:15:22. > :15:26.you feel it in your heart how they are feeling? Nothing is going to
:15:27. > :15:32.bring them back. Victims on all sides. And there will be a lot of
:15:33. > :15:39.people saying, why is this all about the Shankill bomb? And let us remind
:15:40. > :15:45.ourselves, it is probably a good time to do so, what a terrible
:15:46. > :15:48.period this actually was in Northern Ireland. The Shankill bombing was
:15:49. > :15:55.followed by a series of loyalist attacks. An IRA bomb attack without
:15:56. > :16:00.warning kills nine people and injures 57 more. The Shankill Road
:16:01. > :16:10.was busy with lunchtime shoppers when the attack happened. I saw a
:16:11. > :16:16.woman there, I saw a man and a pram wheels.
:16:17. > :16:21.The people of Northern Ireland want peace, they want an end to this
:16:22. > :16:38.murder and mayhem from wherever it comes.
:16:39. > :16:45.The victims were preparing to start work when the shooting began. They
:16:46. > :16:47.fired between 40 and 60 shots. One of the dead man was killed in the
:16:48. > :17:01.first burst of gunfire. The scene inside the bar today where
:17:02. > :17:07.the signs of last night 's attack are still clearly evident. Two armed
:17:08. > :17:15.and masked men walked inside and opened fire indiscriminately. It was
:17:16. > :17:16.pandemonium and the whole place was screaming. Everyone was screaming.
:17:17. > :17:36.Could not believe it. We were Pain on all sides. You are a form of
:17:37. > :17:41.victims commissioner from a republican background. And a victim
:17:42. > :17:46.and how we look upon a victim, even the definition of a victim, it is
:17:47. > :17:50.ripping this community apart. It is, it is a very difficult and
:17:51. > :17:53.contentious issue. I am glad you showed the film that you just did
:17:54. > :18:00.because one night has my mind that 20 years this week and I remember
:18:01. > :18:05.the 24 people that died that week, in the middle we had the two young
:18:06. > :18:12.brothers gunned down in their own home and numerous other debts would
:18:13. > :18:19.Michael deaths. I am glad that the programme has heard from Gareth
:18:20. > :18:23.Wilkinson. People continue to live every day with debilitating
:18:24. > :18:26.injuries. We have to learn to embrace all of those people. We have
:18:27. > :18:32.to look at ways that we can start to bring our community together.
:18:33. > :18:37.Remembering and sharing what we have all experienced. But it is how
:18:38. > :18:40.people remember and a word is used often in Northern Ireland, I have
:18:41. > :18:44.heard it all week, I have heard it for many years, sensitivity. The
:18:45. > :18:49.Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness tweeted tonight that the
:18:50. > :18:57.people of the Shankill Road should be treated with dignity and
:18:58. > :19:07.sensitivity. To put a plaque at on the very week that these people died
:19:08. > :19:14.commemorating a bomber who killed the children and men and women. Is
:19:15. > :19:20.that sensitive? It is a difficult issue. Sensitive, possibly not but
:19:21. > :19:24.it is part of our process of remembering as a community. We have
:19:25. > :19:29.great rituals around death and supporting families when they are
:19:30. > :19:36.grieving. We go two weeks until roles. We remind people that we are
:19:37. > :19:41.sorry for their problems. The unveiling of the pack this week, the
:19:42. > :19:44.events that took place on the Shankill Road, those are about a
:19:45. > :19:49.committee coming together to support those people that more within that
:19:50. > :19:58.committee -- community. They are about people saying we recognise and
:19:59. > :20:06.acknowledge your loss. I do want to ask you and this community tonight,
:20:07. > :20:11.when Sean Kelly and Thomas Begley, when they were walking into that
:20:12. > :20:14.sharp, and there is a little seven-year-old girl and there is a
:20:15. > :20:26.going to get Europe anyway, that's going to get Europe anyway, that's
:20:27. > :20:34.going to get blown up anyway, are they a victim? Are they a soldier?
:20:35. > :20:38.No one is seeking to justify the murder of innocent children. We
:20:39. > :20:43.should not go on my part. We are here today to try and see how we can
:20:44. > :20:48.sensitively commemorate those who have lost their lives as a result of
:20:49. > :20:55.the conflict. I think that is the issue for me. I did go there to say
:20:56. > :20:59.that at the end of the day, I remember and I acknowledge the fact
:21:00. > :21:03.that Thomas Begley was some mothers son. Of course that family needs pay
:21:04. > :21:08.their respects. They lost their son. I understand that. But what happened
:21:09. > :21:14.on Sunday for me was not just a simple act of remembrance. It was
:21:15. > :21:22.wrong. It glorified the violence. It was to be nigh for people like me. I
:21:23. > :21:28.am quite evenhanded. But what happened on Sunday, in my view, was
:21:29. > :21:32.wrong. He was not a soldier of Ireland. He murdered women and
:21:33. > :21:37.children and kids and then we turn around and we commemorate this. He
:21:38. > :21:40.would say he was fighting a war and innocent people get caught up in a
:21:41. > :21:42.war. And he would talk presumably about the British Army and the
:21:43. > :21:49.amount of innocent people that the about the British Army and the
:21:50. > :21:53.British Army have killed and collusion and state violence.
:21:54. > :21:57.Whenever that happens, and I understand that, and I'm against
:21:58. > :22:00.collusion, but the best of my knowledge we do not take those
:22:01. > :22:07.people and isolate them and remember them and reflect upon them and
:22:08. > :22:10.unveil plaques to them. We don't have to necessarily condone the
:22:11. > :22:16.actions of those who died to show compassion for those who mourn them.
:22:17. > :22:23.But it is what we do in Northern Ireland. It is back to this issue of
:22:24. > :22:28.sensibilities and -- sensitivity. It is about how people are remembered.
:22:29. > :22:35.John in Belfast has called us tonight. Go ahead, John. All I want
:22:36. > :22:41.to say is that as far as I know, the IRA never had suicide bombers. I
:22:42. > :22:44.don't think Thomas Begley went in there with the sole purpose of
:22:45. > :22:48.killing innocent people. He went in there to kill people who were
:22:49. > :22:53.planning to kill other people. But they just happen to pick a busy
:22:54. > :23:01.Saturday afternoon and a shop full of customers. Right, what he did do
:23:02. > :23:05.was according to reports, he left an 11 second fuse, he was at the back
:23:06. > :23:12.of the shop. He left himself enough time to get out of there. What I am
:23:13. > :23:18.saying now, don't be picking me up wrong. I am trying to understand
:23:19. > :23:25.this thesis and I'm going to hear it again from you that they did not
:23:26. > :23:32.intend to kill innocent people. 11 second fuse. To put a bomb in a shop
:23:33. > :23:39.full of men and women and children, what do they expect to happen? Is
:23:40. > :23:45.this a rewrite of history? I am not trying to rewrite history. It was a
:23:46. > :23:49.dirty war and everyone played their part in that dirty war. I am not
:23:50. > :23:54.going to suggest for one second that I am going back on history. That is
:23:55. > :23:59.not going to happen. But he was at the back of the shop, he has lit the
:24:00. > :24:04.fuse and left him an assigned to get out of there. His target was the
:24:05. > :24:09.people upstairs. He got a lot more people than that. If you look at the
:24:10. > :24:24.photographs, the whole front of a chop came out. -- shop. He
:24:25. > :24:27.definitely wanted to chemist Matt -- commit mass murder. They knew what
:24:28. > :24:34.they were doing. Tell me what happened to you, your family. I lost
:24:35. > :24:44.my sister that day. Man was out shopping with her. -- my mother was
:24:45. > :24:51.out shopping with her. She was in the shop and the bomb blew. Just
:24:52. > :24:59.really bad for my mother. Just terrible. Just bringing it all back.
:25:00. > :25:04.They knew what they were doing that day, no doubt about it. They knew
:25:05. > :25:10.they were going out to commit mass murder. They did not intend to blow
:25:11. > :25:21.themselves up. It did not go according to plan. It backfired a
:25:22. > :25:31.bit on them, I would say. What is it like all these years later? Hard.
:25:32. > :25:38.Just watching all that the families and my mother went through. Just
:25:39. > :25:47.hard to describe. I cannot put words into it. But you, like the rest of
:25:48. > :25:52.us, want a better Northern Ireland. Of course. And that means we have to
:25:53. > :25:59.understand there is pain and suffering on all sides. And so how
:26:00. > :26:07.do you reach out to the people who are saying they are equally in as
:26:08. > :26:11.much pain as you? And they have got an alternative story and they want
:26:12. > :26:19.is to end? But they want to be able to remember who they see as their
:26:20. > :26:23.soldiers and their history. Do you fight it or do you try to
:26:24. > :26:31.understand? You try to understand boys want to view. -- both points of
:26:32. > :26:35.view. The likes of Thomas Begley 's family, I believe, that they should
:26:36. > :26:48.remember their son, they are entitled to. But to glorify it, in
:26:49. > :26:55.the way that it is, it is just hard to handle, to watch it. There have
:26:56. > :27:05.been many correspondence and newspeople, I guess like me, trying
:27:06. > :27:08.to Article eight of sides of the argument of when that plaque was
:27:09. > :27:12.unveiled and the language that was used. Tell me what it was like when
:27:13. > :27:16.you felt it was happening to you and tell them what it felt like. It felt
:27:17. > :27:25.disgusting. It felt like they were walking over my sister 's grave.
:27:26. > :27:31.Once again, I cannot describe how I felt at the time. Just really,
:27:32. > :27:37.really hard to watch them stand there and do that on the television
:27:38. > :27:45.in front of me. It was just hard to watch. I want to remind us all what
:27:46. > :27:55.some of Sean Kelly actually said at the unveiling of this plaque. Just a
:27:56. > :28:03.matter of days ago. I offer no excuse for the killing of any of
:28:04. > :28:16.these innocent people. I am truly sorry for the loss of lives that
:28:17. > :28:19.day. Now he says he is really sorry, this
:28:20. > :28:24.is my final question to you, he says he's really sorry, and Martin
:28:25. > :28:32.McGuinness has endorsed that tonight, the Deputy First Minister,
:28:33. > :28:35.they are really sorry. To say sorry, that is better than not to say
:28:36. > :28:41.sorry. Have you not got to take it at face value or try to? I will
:28:42. > :28:48.never take that at face value. I will never accept his apology.
:28:49. > :28:58.Never. Thank you for talking to us tonight.
:28:59. > :29:02.What are your thoughts? This is a society with divided stories and a
:29:03. > :29:29.divided sense of history. They're off ideologies -- there are
:29:30. > :29:42.up ideologies involved. Someone said on your radio show that Thomas
:29:43. > :29:47.Begley died for Ireland. A so drop -- a soldier of Ireland, they said.
:29:48. > :29:57.That is how he would have seen himself and how he would have been
:29:58. > :30:03.led to believe he was. These men did not wake up in the morning and
:30:04. > :30:23.decide to go to the Shankill Road to commit what was a sectarian
:30:24. > :30:30.atrocity. But as difficult as it may be for some people, had people
:30:31. > :30:37.got to tolerate and understand those people who want to gather
:30:38. > :30:42.together to commemorate who Dacey as the soldiers? Is that the way
:30:43. > :30:46.forward in Northern Ireland? I do not believe it is the way forward
:30:47. > :30:52.at all, but what I would understand the situation to have been, this
:30:53. > :30:57.commemoration was not organised by the family. I don't think the
:30:58. > :31:03.family were enthusiastic about it, but it was their son, so they went
:31:04. > :31:07.along with it when it was happening. The organisation that these two
:31:08. > :31:15.young men belonged to was based upon the notion that they were
:31:16. > :31:21.fighting a war, sanctioned by a competent faction of the IRA. I
:31:22. > :31:33.don't accept that ideology, but we have to understand that those were
:31:34. > :31:36.the ideals. Let me bring Nigel Dodds in from our Westminster
:31:37. > :31:43.studio. Some loyalist paramilitaries at that time were
:31:44. > :31:47.very much increase in violence and their murder campaign against
:31:48. > :31:51.Catholics at that time, and that is the context that is important to
:31:52. > :31:57.remember here but we are talking about this. It is part of it. When
:31:58. > :32:01.you look back at that period and many years before it and after Rick,
:32:02. > :32:07.there were killings going on on all sides, including terrorists on the
:32:08. > :32:15.loyalist side and the Republican side. There were 1,700 deaths due
:32:16. > :32:26.to the IRA. We need to get this into context. Let us be very, very
:32:27. > :32:31.clear about the crowd last night on the Shankill Road. Today at the
:32:32. > :32:36.wonderful memorial service on the Shankill Road as well, people were
:32:37. > :32:40.coming together as a community in a respectful, dignified way to give
:32:41. > :32:46.support to the families and that is how it should be done. And people
:32:47. > :32:51.who went to the commemoration of Thomas Begley would say they did
:32:52. > :32:56.that, in a dignified way. I was about to come on to the stark
:32:57. > :33:03.contrast. People did not go out to offend anyone. You contrast that
:33:04. > :33:11.with the glorification because there was a plaque erected that pay
:33:12. > :33:15.tribute to someone who was a terrorist and despite what Martin
:33:16. > :33:22.others have said about sensitivity, others have said about sensitivity,
:33:23. > :33:29.cheered on by the presence of Gerry Kelly, a leading Sinn Fein member.
:33:30. > :33:37.It is bad. The wider and we also draw the parallel to Bryan Robson,
:33:38. > :33:51.I'm sorry, Robinson, the UVF killer, who loyalists parade behind? All
:33:52. > :34:00.violence is wrong, or murder is wrong. -- or a murder is wrong.
:34:01. > :34:04.Everybody should be brought to account and there should be no
:34:05. > :34:16.glorification or support or vindication of those who carried
:34:17. > :34:23.out these atrocities. And should people be able to march on the
:34:24. > :34:31.12th? I do not support glorification of terrorists. Is
:34:32. > :34:36.there to know? Absolutely. We do not support murder or mayhem. There
:34:37. > :34:52.should be no glorification of violence and terrorism. let me make
:34:53. > :35:01.it clear, there are attempts by some to to glorify those who
:35:02. > :35:20.committed crimes. That is why the definition of the victim needs to
:35:21. > :35:35.be a change. Thank you. I'm just looking at some of the sweets
:35:36. > :35:40.coming in. -- tweets. The lady there with the glasses. At the end
:35:41. > :35:44.of the day, these killers me exactly what they were going to do.
:35:45. > :35:51.They have prepared a bomb and walked into a shop with innocent
:35:52. > :36:06.people out doing their normal daily shopping. To put a plaque up is a
:36:07. > :36:13.disgrace and to say he was on active service is bad. They should
:36:14. > :36:21.have put up a plaque for the victims and their families. Jude
:36:22. > :36:31.Collins. Looking at the film, it would be very difficult not to feel
:36:32. > :36:37.deep distress. I don't know how some people can bring themselves to
:36:38. > :36:43.look at it. It is absolutely heartbreaking. If the question is
:36:44. > :36:51.about Thomas Begley and this memorial plaque, that is what
:36:52. > :37:03.opposing forces do. That is why we have set the task, that is why it
:37:04. > :37:15.all groups throughout the world celebrate their dead. -- that is
:37:16. > :37:22.why we have Cenotaphs. I wonder how much priority we should give it, as
:37:23. > :37:27.in, should it be at the very top of our priorities in Northern Ireland?
:37:28. > :37:29.Are we ever going to work out a way in which both communities can
:37:30. > :37:35.recognise that the stories are never going to be agreeable, we
:37:36. > :37:42.have to define a victim and we have to find a way to remember it each
:37:43. > :37:46.other's history together. Can it ever be done together or will this
:37:47. > :37:54.tension be passed on to the next generation? Very difficult. I
:37:55. > :38:00.sincerely hope we can go in that direction because that is what it
:38:01. > :38:04.comes down to, to see the things from the perspective of the people
:38:05. > :38:13.who have inflicted hurt on you, whatever side that is on. Thank you.
:38:14. > :38:19.I am really sorry that in this short time we have in television we
:38:20. > :38:23.are going to end our discussion on that issue. It is a massive
:38:24. > :38:29.discussion for us in Northern Ireland. We will continue it on the
:38:30. > :38:38.radio and you can continue it now on Twitter.
:38:39. > :38:47.Leicester's get a quick reminder of how you at home can interact with
:38:48. > :38:55.us. -- let us. The details are coming up on the screen.
:38:56. > :39:00.Still to come on tonight's programme - the Stormont beauty
:39:01. > :39:03.contest. If you are too fat, too short or too old, don't apply. My
:39:04. > :39:11.next guest rose to fame with the short or too old, don't apply. My
:39:12. > :39:24.Irish boy band Westlife. They had album sales in excess of 40 million.
:39:25. > :39:35.Waking up beside you. To watch the sunrise on your face. To know that
:39:36. > :39:45.I can say I love you. In any given time or place. A but as the group
:39:46. > :39:50.2012, Shane Filan was hiding a 2012, Shane Filan was hiding a
:39:51. > :39:57.secret - he was heading for bankruptcy. Now he is trying to
:39:58. > :40:11.rebuild his life and career. Let us welcome him - Shane Filan.
:40:12. > :40:15.You are a popular man. You are jamming my Twitter feed. They
:40:16. > :40:23.aren't talking about me, they are talking about you. Sorry about that.
:40:24. > :40:31.No problem. It's great to have you. There is a perception of a pop star.
:40:32. > :40:45.You see beat success on screen, but there was a lot going on behind the
:40:46. > :40:56.scenes. I lost my money. How much did you have? It was all of my
:40:57. > :41:02.savings. I put it into property. The Celtic Tiger was booming. I
:41:03. > :41:07.didn't have millions, but people were saying, you are stupid, you
:41:08. > :41:12.have got to get in. You are mad if you don't get in even further. I
:41:13. > :41:21.just had my first baby. The band had done well and we have made a
:41:22. > :41:30.few quid. Things could be over quickly and you think, I need to
:41:31. > :41:36.invest my money. I was only 25, 26. I put it all into property and lost.
:41:37. > :41:42.Can you remember thinking, this is really going wrong? The last few
:41:43. > :41:48.years, leading up to it when nothing was happening, we bought
:41:49. > :41:52.sites and were trying to get planning permission for things like
:41:53. > :41:58.supermarkets. It was a formula that seemed to work for other people.
:41:59. > :42:11.Did you borrow tens of millions? No, it was about 20 million. It was 18
:42:12. > :42:16.to be precise. And then you see the market climate, you are in too deep.
:42:17. > :42:23.What happens. You run out of money. If it was me, I would go into
:42:24. > :42:31.denial. I was in denial for a while and I was angry, but you look at it
:42:32. > :42:40.and think, I am in this boy band and we are doing it well, but the
:42:41. > :42:48.other side of my life is in tatters. I was paying out ?80,000 a month
:42:49. > :42:53.just in interest. It was crazy trying to keep it at bay.
:42:54. > :42:58.Eventually, you run out of money and then you just can't fix it. It
:42:59. > :43:03.had to be affecting your mood when you were performing and engaging
:43:04. > :43:09.with other people. When I was on stage it was the one time I never
:43:10. > :43:12.thought about it. When you are on stage it is very hard not to be
:43:13. > :43:17.happy. You are singing to thousands of people and it is amazing, but
:43:18. > :43:23.when you come off stage, you are worrying about it. You are getting
:43:24. > :43:27.e-mails from the banks and you are thinking, this is getting out of
:43:28. > :43:33.control. I tried my best and I tried to keep it at bay for three
:43:34. > :43:37.or four years. We do you blame? I don't want to blame anybody. At the
:43:38. > :43:43.time when I took the loans out, it was the right thing to do. It made
:43:44. > :43:50.a lot of financial sense. It is hard to blame anybody. I don't
:43:51. > :43:51.blame the banks or people. The whole world fell apart financially
:43:52. > :43:56.and I was just one of those people and I was just one of those people
:43:57. > :44:04.who got caught in it. I actually think you will be doing conferences
:44:05. > :44:09.around the banking sector for the rest of your life. You could point
:44:10. > :44:15.the finger at different things if you want, but I was just very
:44:16. > :44:19.unlucky. You are putting an investment there and taking a risk.
:44:20. > :44:23.I was just very unlucky. When things happen like that, you look
:44:24. > :44:30.at the rest of your life and you think, what do I have? I have no
:44:31. > :44:36.money, I was literally bankrupt, but I had a great wife, an amazing
:44:37. > :44:40.marriage and three healthy children. I looked at that and I thought, I
:44:41. > :44:44.would just start again. It is not the end of the world. If something
:44:45. > :44:49.was wrong with them, my children were sick, it would be different.
:44:50. > :44:53.You are building your life up again and you are fighting back. You have
:44:54. > :45:04.to. You have got to look to the future. That is what I look like. -
:45:05. > :45:11.- that is what I looked at. Is the future bright? I haven't a clue!
:45:12. > :45:20.Well, the start of my solo career has been good. I performed in
:45:21. > :45:26.Belfast and it sold out. I did not expect that. It is a nice thing to
:45:27. > :45:32.be able to do. It is early days, but it is better than it was a year
:45:33. > :45:46.ago. And you are going to sing for us later? I am. Go and get ready. I
:45:47. > :45:54.am looking forward to this. Now, for his first live performance in
:45:55. > :45:59.Northern Ireland, Ladies and Gentlemen, Shane Filan!
:46:00. > :46:26.money, when the if the punch line is funny.
:46:27. > :46:30.Worry if the sky is going to fall. Worry about winning, worry about
:46:31. > :46:35.losing, worry about the rows we are choosing.
:46:36. > :46:40.Worry is that someone is going to call.
:46:41. > :46:46.You spend so much precious time trying to figure out.
:46:47. > :46:54.What this crazy Maze of a beautiful world is all about.
:46:55. > :46:56.So click on back, fill your cup, put on your favourite song, turn it up.
:46:57. > :47:05.Find a little peace of mind in the sunshine.
:47:06. > :47:16.Don't waste your days looking at the clock, say I love you to the ones
:47:17. > :47:20.you've got. Because you only live once, once.
:47:21. > :47:32.You only live once, once, once. Worry about truth, worry about
:47:33. > :47:38.lying, worry about how much we're trying.
:47:39. > :47:43.When it's all going to come to an end.
:47:44. > :47:49.We spend so much precious time trying to figure out.
:47:50. > :47:57.What this crazy Maze of a beautiful world is all about.
:47:58. > :48:02.So click on back, fill your cup, put on your favourite song, turn it up.
:48:03. > :48:06.Find a little peace of mind in the sunshine.
:48:07. > :48:09.Waste your days, looking at the clock, say I love you till the ones
:48:10. > :48:18.you've got. As you only live once, once, once.
:48:19. > :48:49.You only live once, once, once. Click on back, fill your cup, but on
:48:50. > :48:56.your favourite song, turn it up. Find a little peace of mind in the
:48:57. > :49:01.sunshine. Waste your days looking at the
:49:02. > :49:08.clock, say I love you to the ones you've got.
:49:09. > :49:20.You only live once, once, once. Your live once, once, once.
:49:21. > :49:27.Yeah, you only live once, once, once.
:49:28. > :49:59.You only live once, once, once. Beautiful. Beautiful song. Thank
:50:00. > :50:07.you. It was meant to be a night of glitz and glamour at Stormont. The
:50:08. > :50:11.beautiful contest, a row broke out. Women could not enter if they were
:50:12. > :50:30.too short, too old or my of an aside 12.
:50:31. > :50:39.Spot the man reading the autocue. What do you think about this? I
:50:40. > :50:47.think it is quite shocking, not that these women should adhere to these
:50:48. > :50:51.particular notions of beauty, but actually that these beauty
:50:52. > :50:56.competitions exist at all. I was listing to your radio show and some
:50:57. > :51:00.really interesting comments came out there about, should we be shocked
:51:01. > :51:07.that you have to be over five foot seven and you have to be a size 12?
:51:08. > :51:10.Most beauty pageants are like that. What we should be surprised about is
:51:11. > :51:17.that they exist at all. But women are still continuously being judged
:51:18. > :51:26.on their beauty and body size. I don't think they are being
:51:27. > :51:30.continually judged. There are many good looking beautiful women out
:51:31. > :51:36.there who are size 18, 20. It is not about that. This is about the
:51:37. > :51:44.realities of the fashion industry. This competition is about finding a
:51:45. > :51:53.model. You can't be miss Ulster if you are over a size 12. And quite
:51:54. > :51:57.rightly so. The fashion industry is completely full of body fascists.
:51:58. > :52:00.Whoever goes on to win this competition will go on to represent
:52:01. > :52:06.Northern Ireland and will get a modelling career. It is an ambition
:52:07. > :52:10.that they have. If you're five foot six, you cannot represent Northern
:52:11. > :52:17.Ireland? Not in a modelling industry. I understand what you are
:52:18. > :52:24.saying but what we need to do is dismantle this system. There are
:52:25. > :52:42.many plus size models out there. Let's talk about real life. That is
:52:43. > :52:47.so condescending. I don't see what the problem is. It is condescending
:52:48. > :52:49.to bigger women. Women have been protesting against this style of
:52:50. > :52:52.beauty competition since feminism began.
:52:53. > :52:58.And the fact that they still exist is shaming. This is the 21st
:52:59. > :53:05.century. Women are equal members of society. Two people who were not
:53:06. > :53:08.protesting were the politicians who have now amazingly a year after
:53:09. > :53:19.actually attending his condition last year, they have pulled out the
:53:20. > :53:31.media told them it was not easy. -- pc. There were a lot of skinny
:53:32. > :53:34.people out there. Let's go to the audience. Do you think it was
:53:35. > :53:41.appropriate to hold it in Stormont? There are a lot more pressing issues
:53:42. > :53:46.going on at the moment. Basil McCrea was hosting it. He won't come on the
:53:47. > :53:58.programme. I think we can show you a picture of
:53:59. > :54:06.basil. He looks happy. But is it right?
:54:07. > :54:13.Sorry, but BT cannot be defined by your size, your Haytor your age. --
:54:14. > :54:17.beauty. What sort of message do you think that is sending across to
:54:18. > :54:24.schoolgirls that you are not worthy of you don't fit into this category?
:54:25. > :54:34.Exactly. Can I answer that? From where I am standing, you are
:54:35. > :54:41.clearly a pretty young lady. That is so condescending. She has a valid
:54:42. > :54:49.point. She doesn't need creeps like you saying, you are really pretty.
:54:50. > :54:53.She is never going to be the next supermodel. Who cares, maybe she has
:54:54. > :54:56.got a brain. These girls have a right to when to
:54:57. > :55:01.a modelling, edition and they should not be deprived of that right.
:55:02. > :55:05.Deprived of a right to enter a modelling competition?
:55:06. > :55:14.When you are saying it is fashion rules, explained Sophie Dahl, one of
:55:15. > :55:16.the biggest supermodels in the world consumer there are beautiful plus
:55:17. > :55:22.size models but they are in the minority. We need to dismantle the
:55:23. > :55:27.whole system. What are your thoughts around this?
:55:28. > :55:31.Good evening. I think the first point I would like to take bids with
:55:32. > :55:41.a me that for reason, she seems to think that if we celebrate beautiful
:55:42. > :55:51.people we are not celebrating intelligence.
:55:52. > :55:58.I wonder, if I had entered the comedy show, with IB stupid?
:55:59. > :56:10.You say you are next model? A very long time ago. Did you get weighed?
:56:11. > :56:14.I am talking 20 years ago. Sorry, in case that came across
:56:15. > :56:20.wrong. I hope it did not. The point I was thrown to make is do they way
:56:21. > :56:33.men? There are body constraints for men as there are for women. You have
:56:34. > :56:40.to appear healthy. Hold on, hold on. Can we do something, come and sit on
:56:41. > :56:50.this seat. He is the host for five minutes. This is a fat man saying
:56:51. > :56:54.this, are you actually telling me that you cannot be healthy as a
:56:55. > :57:07.woman if you are over a size 12? Are you telling me that? If you let me
:57:08. > :57:16.finish, you may just learn something. You are supposed to be
:57:17. > :57:19.controlling this. Let me give you this bit of information, I went on
:57:20. > :57:23.the Northern Ireland health service website today to check what they
:57:24. > :57:28.deem as being within healthy constraints. Were there any grey
:57:29. > :57:54.areas Chris DiMarco there were no grey areas. And they say any thing.
:57:55. > :58:02.The. . . We have a problem with obesity in Northern Ireland. An
:58:03. > :58:09.unkind person would say that Paul Martin would not win any beauty
:58:10. > :58:13.contests. I am a bad person. These women may well be intelligent
:58:14. > :58:16.contestants. They may have degrees coming out of their elbows. They are
:58:17. > :58:18.not being judged on their intelligence or their education or
:58:19. > :58:23.the number of degrees. They are being judged on their looks. It
:58:24. > :58:29.should never have been held in Stormont. These are public
:58:30. > :58:35.representatives. This contest is not represent the majority of women in
:58:36. > :58:39.Northern Ireland. They are women doing it for free choice. They
:58:40. > :58:42.actually feel, get out of their space, let them create their own
:58:43. > :58:50.business themselves, if that is what they see a modelling career, they
:58:51. > :58:58.are intelligent and self -- intelligent enough to decide. But
:58:59. > :59:03.there is such an incredible amount of pressure on young girls to look a
:59:04. > :59:08.certain way and BA said in size. And to have certain thoughts. It is what
:59:09. > :59:15.it is saying to those young girls. Is there anyone in the audience who
:59:16. > :59:34.supports a woman or a man to be in these contests? I think that is the
:59:35. > :59:39.so-called bigger people should be allowed to be in a beautiful pageant
:59:40. > :59:49.because they are as beautiful as a thin person. Thank you. Madame, go
:59:50. > :59:53.ahead. I think really, if it is that important to go ahead with it, it is
:59:54. > :00:09.mostly Miss Ulster, it should represent everybody. The average
:00:10. > :00:16.size of a women is 16. Why are these modelling contests really necessary?
:00:17. > :00:24.We don't have judging day-to-day. Also, what kind of message do think
:00:25. > :00:31.it sends young teenage girls that in very extreme cases could lead to
:00:32. > :00:36.suicide? First of all, what I want to point out is that nobody sets out
:00:37. > :00:43.a beauty contest with the idea of telling people that they are not
:00:44. > :00:46.suitable. The people that enter beauty contests enter them the same
:00:47. > :00:54.wears a scholarship and they are entering them to get a lead up the
:00:55. > :00:59.ladder, for want of a better phrase. I also think that the point that you
:01:00. > :01:03.made just now about it being damaging to young women, it is also
:01:04. > :01:09.damaging to men because it sets up expectations for what men should be
:01:10. > :01:14.achieving and the kinds of women they should be going out with. Let's
:01:15. > :01:21.face it, it is not reality. I think it is just as damaging to men. The
:01:22. > :01:31.whole attitude coming from this side of the table is very patronising to
:01:32. > :01:34.women. There will be plenty of outcry on the radio tomorrow morning
:01:35. > :01:37.when we continue to discuss both sides of the debate. Thank you,
:01:38. > :01:43.ladies and gentlemen. Good night.