:00:10. > :00:20.the Maze beer shrine to Bobby Sands? Also in the programme, from the
:00:20. > :00:27.streets of Belfast, will this man turn heads on The Voice? He is life
:00:27. > :00:33.in the studio tonight, ladies and gentlemen. Is it OK for a mother to
:00:33. > :00:43.pay for her disabled son to lose his virginity? We will debate it. Find
:00:43. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:16.Blocks, Long Kesh. Many names but one purpose, to imprison thousands
:01:16. > :01:20.of Republican and Loyalist prisoners throughout the Troubles. 13 years
:01:20. > :01:25.from its closure, the site is once again causing controversy. Because
:01:25. > :01:28.planning permission has been granted for a controversial peace building
:01:28. > :01:33.and conflict resolution centre but some unionists are concerned the one
:01:33. > :01:36.remaining H Block and the prison hospital where Bobby Sands and nine
:01:36. > :01:41.other hunger strikers died will become a republican shrine. Let's
:01:41. > :01:47.discuss this tonight. The leader of the Ulster Unionist Party Mike
:01:47. > :01:53.Nesbitt is with us. From London, Jeffrey Donaldson is with this, too.
:01:53. > :02:01.Mike, tell us why you are opposed to this. We are in favour of developing
:02:01. > :02:05.the Maze. It is 360 acres. It can generate huge investment. Thousands
:02:05. > :02:12.of jobs. But when it comes to the peace centre, there are three
:02:12. > :02:16.questions we need to ask. One, should we have one? Too, if yes,
:02:16. > :02:22.what is its purpose? And only then should we ask question three, where
:02:22. > :02:25.should it be? It appears we have gone to rest and three. And we've
:02:25. > :02:30.decided for an inexplicable reason for the most divisive plot of land
:02:30. > :02:34.in the whole of Northern Ireland. If it is about a peace Centre and
:02:34. > :02:40.bringing people together, why have we chosen the most divisive bit of
:02:40. > :02:45.land that splits cars? But you don't know if you are against or for it.
:02:45. > :02:51.am not for it at the Maze. I am not for the peace centre at the Maze.
:02:51. > :02:57.matter what you will never supported at the Maze? I will not. We have not
:02:57. > :03:01.had consultation with innocent victims. Something like two dozen
:03:01. > :03:08.prisoner groups have been consulted about this. Innocent victims have
:03:08. > :03:12.not been consulted about this. The CCE a have come forward with our
:03:12. > :03:15.schoolchildren's curriculum and exams have been consulted on
:03:15. > :03:19.multiple occasions. Does that tell you schoolchildren are going to be
:03:19. > :03:26.forced to visit this site in the Maze? Jeffrey Donaldson, is that
:03:26. > :03:31.true? That victims were not consulted about this? It is
:03:31. > :03:37.absolutely not true. Mike comes late to the game. The question of should
:03:37. > :03:40.we have a peace centre was looked at in great detail. There were many
:03:40. > :03:45.meetings with victims groups and individual victims and I myself have
:03:45. > :03:50.conducted some of those meetings. What is he talking about than?
:03:50. > :03:55.You'll have to ask him. It is false to suggest there has been no
:03:55. > :04:01.meetings and no consultations with victims. He is a list. 26 with
:04:01. > :04:10.prisoner groups. No mention of the Southeast Fermanagh foundation. . .
:04:10. > :04:15.Where is that from? This list has come from an official group. I was a
:04:15. > :04:20.minister before Mike got involved. I met many of the victims groups and
:04:20. > :04:24.we discussed the Maze issue. I've been to Tyrone, I've been to other
:04:24. > :04:30.parts of Northern Ireland in recent weeks and months to discuss this
:04:30. > :04:34.very issue. So Mike is being disingenuous. It is not true victims
:04:34. > :04:38.have not been consulted because they have. And we know they have
:04:38. > :04:42.concerns, concerns we are seeking to address. The question I want to ask
:04:42. > :04:47.Mike is if he is opposed to the peace centre being at the Maze,
:04:47. > :04:51.bearing in mind it is a new building, not within the retained
:04:51. > :04:54.buildings and the UUP, they supported this peace centre, not
:04:54. > :04:58.just being at this site, but actually being in the H Block
:04:58. > :05:04.itself. When the DUP became the largest party, we put a stop to
:05:04. > :05:08.that. We made it clear we would not support the peace centre being in
:05:08. > :05:16.those retained buildings. It is not that far away. It is still within
:05:16. > :05:20.the grounds. So would be many other developments on that site. But the
:05:20. > :05:27.others aren't controversial. Is your party happy for that to be at the
:05:27. > :05:30.Maze site? So you are happy for that to happen? If you let me answer, why
:05:30. > :05:36.did Mike not oppose the planning application for the peace centre
:05:36. > :05:40.going at the Maze site? The first question any plan asks is is this
:05:40. > :05:45.the right location? It is a valid planning objection to object to the
:05:45. > :05:48.location of a proposed development. Not a single member of his party
:05:48. > :05:53.objected to that planning application. Now he comes
:05:54. > :06:03.afterwards, just as they did with the listing of the building, only
:06:03. > :06:10.two politicians went to register an objection to those buildings...
:06:10. > :06:15.is going to reply to you, Geoffrey! Is this me now? It is you.12th of
:06:15. > :06:21.February, 2004, a sub group chaired by Edwin pollutes, it was the old --
:06:21. > :06:26.Ulster Unionists put forward the notion that we would not consider
:06:26. > :06:31.the concept of part of the site being retained. We said that nine
:06:31. > :06:37.years ago. What about now? You said it would be shrine. A shrine to
:06:37. > :06:42.what? What was your headline? was the one person? You spell it
:06:42. > :06:48.out. My concern is that people will make it a strike -- shrine to the
:06:48. > :06:52.hunger strikers and prisoners. The focus is on the prison and the
:06:52. > :06:56.prisoners. Now that is a story but it is not the same story as the
:06:56. > :07:01.story of the Troubles. This will put an undue focus on prisoners who
:07:01. > :07:06.were, after all, Victor makers, and not on the victims. I have also been
:07:06. > :07:12.going around the country listening to victims. I would rather have a
:07:12. > :07:18.matchbox full of truth than an �18 million shiny building full of
:07:18. > :07:23.lies. So, Jeffrey Donaldson, is the DUP going to accept the shrine?
:07:23. > :07:30.course not, Stephen. I lost members of my family murdered by the IRA, I
:07:30. > :07:34.lost comrades who had served with me to the IRA. I remind Mike it was his
:07:34. > :07:37.party when they were in the first Minister 's office, David Trimble,
:07:37. > :07:42.who brought forward the definition of a victim which equates what he
:07:42. > :07:47.describes as the victim maker with the innocent victims. It is very
:07:47. > :07:52.well for him to say he is against it, but his party equated the
:07:52. > :07:57.victims with those very prisoners. He defined them all. His party
:07:57. > :08:04.defined them all as victims. Spell it out, what is the H Block and the
:08:04. > :08:08.hospital going to be? It is not going to be anything. It is there,
:08:09. > :08:14.it is listed, it is not going anywhere. Unfortunately, that is the
:08:14. > :08:18.case... What is it going to be?The peace centre is a new building,
:08:18. > :08:23.designed by an architect who designed the memorial to the victims
:08:23. > :08:27.of terrorism at 911 in New York. He is not going to design a shrine to
:08:27. > :08:31.terrorism and the peace centre will be the focus for building peace in
:08:31. > :08:36.Northern Ireland. It will not be about glorifying terrorism. The H
:08:36. > :08:39.Block and the hospital, will you ban tourists from visiting than? Nothing
:08:39. > :08:47.has been agreed about what will happen with those buildings. They
:08:47. > :08:55.are empty. What about the public? No agreement has been reached at this
:08:55. > :09:05.stage as to any future use of those buildings. The DUP has agreed --
:09:05. > :09:08.vetoed plans with the buildings and we will not glorified terrorism. We
:09:08. > :09:15.are absolutely crystal clear, and I can give that commitment on this
:09:15. > :09:18.programme this evening, we will not support, condo in or in any sense
:09:18. > :09:21.agreed to anything that would make those buildings a shrine to
:09:21. > :09:28.terrorism and we can prevent it because we have the strength in the
:09:28. > :09:33.Assembly. The planning application is through. For the peace centre!
:09:33. > :09:42.This is going to be built, money is going to be spent, so let's see what
:09:42. > :09:52.Sinn Fein, if they agree with your words. Let's go to our studio. Now,
:09:52. > :10:10.
:10:10. > :10:14.text us. Raymond McCartney is in our Foyle studio. He is from Sinn Fein.
:10:14. > :10:20.Obviously, Raymond, this whole issue is so important to you, given your
:10:20. > :10:24.past. Let's remind ourselves, it would be worthwhile to do so, let's
:10:24. > :10:28.remind ourselves, if we can, of how important it has been to you and
:10:28. > :10:34.what I want you to do at home tonight, if you are text in your
:10:34. > :10:42.calling, I want you to tweeters as well, let's have a look at this.
:10:42. > :10:47.are prepared to die, we are special prisoners. You've just heard Jeffrey
:10:47. > :10:54.Donaldson say there is no way it will be a shrine to hunger strikers.
:10:54. > :10:59.You will one of those hunger strikers. The whole concept of a
:10:59. > :11:02.shrine is a misnomer. Right from the moment it closed, there was a
:11:02. > :11:10.discussion about how best to optimise the use of the site and
:11:10. > :11:13.Republicans have always argued it is a site of historical significance,
:11:13. > :11:18.the site should be preserved, and there should be a dialogue on how to
:11:18. > :11:20.do it, and that is what has unfolded. In recent weeks, we have
:11:20. > :11:26.seen the latest stage of that process with a planning application
:11:27. > :11:31.approved, and the remarkable thing about it, and I was on the Long Kesh
:11:31. > :11:37.develop and group, is that all the developers have all said the best
:11:37. > :11:41.way to optimise the development was to ensure the historical legacy was
:11:41. > :11:46.preserved. You can hope all you like but Jeffrey Donaldson reaffirmed
:11:46. > :11:51.again on this programme there is no way he will support or condone it.
:11:51. > :11:58.The possibility remains the DUP will ban it from being open to the
:11:58. > :12:03.public. Let's deal with it in terms of the fact. At present, there is
:12:03. > :12:08.planning permission and approval for the new building to go ahead.
:12:08. > :12:12.is the new building. The peace centre. What has got us to where we
:12:12. > :12:19.are today is a process of dialogue and I think we are continuing that
:12:19. > :12:27.dialogue and we can achieve a preservation of the site, historical
:12:27. > :12:30.preservation, and people can have time and space for their story.
:12:30. > :12:36.band for the public, the DUP will not tolerate the public going into
:12:36. > :12:42.it. The old prison site. We will have to deal with that at the time.
:12:42. > :12:45.It is on the table now. Anyone who has examined the site over the last
:12:45. > :12:52.couple of years have all said it should be a place open to the
:12:52. > :12:58.public... To tell them what story?A number of stories. What would your
:12:58. > :13:03.story be? My story would be simple. I was a republican, I was part of
:13:03. > :13:05.the Republican family, I was a prisoner in Long Kesh, and I was a
:13:05. > :13:12.prisoner in Long Kesh, and I'm conscious other people have other
:13:12. > :13:17.stories. But we shouldn't fear for the time and space to tell our
:13:17. > :13:22.stories. Could you envisage your story being banned from that prison
:13:22. > :13:25.site? It would be stupid for anyone when they were trying to tell
:13:25. > :13:29.history or allow history to be told that they would come up with this
:13:29. > :13:34.idea that a certain part of history will not be taught. It wouldn't
:13:34. > :13:38.work, it hasn't worked before, it only happens when you postponed the
:13:38. > :13:41.telling of history or allowing people to tell their story. There
:13:41. > :13:50.will be no storytelling within the retained buildings, let's be clear
:13:50. > :13:53.about that. Jeffrey Donaldson said that. People can come up with what
:13:53. > :13:57.they think the definition of storytelling is. But people have to
:13:57. > :14:02.be given the time and space. He said there will not be tour guides, they
:14:02. > :14:05.will not say this is where Bobby Sands died, there will not be any
:14:05. > :14:14.thing about Bobby Sands. That is people being prescriptive far too
:14:15. > :14:22.early. There is a bit of a squabble going on. Mike needs reminding that
:14:22. > :14:32.David Campbell headed up the first panel who examined the site, and the
:14:32. > :14:32.
:14:32. > :14:42.way forward was agreed by all. Actually, what Mr Campbell insisted
:14:42. > :14:42.
:14:42. > :14:48.he'd date, -- he did, the building was already listed, and he said he
:14:48. > :14:55.campaigned against it, but the listed buildings came from direct
:14:55. > :14:59.rule, not him. That is correct, and the panel which he chaired a greed
:14:59. > :15:04.from the outset that there would be no selectivity, it was a whole
:15:04. > :15:13.package or nothing. And when the National sports Stadium fell, the
:15:13. > :15:17.whole package fell. I have those minutes for you. There is a man here
:15:17. > :15:25.in the front in the black hat. don't think it should be the Maze
:15:25. > :15:32.for peace shelter. I think it will become a shrine to terrorism. It
:15:32. > :15:36.will overshadow what a peace Centre is all about. Why shrine to
:15:36. > :15:42.terrorism? Why not let all stories be told and interpreted as you want
:15:42. > :15:45.to? There are Republicans, loyalties, victims, and they all
:15:45. > :15:51.need to tell their story. And I don't think the Maze is the right
:15:51. > :16:00.place to do it. Why not? I think it will become a shrine to
:16:00. > :16:06.republicanism. It will overshadow the peace process. Let's hear from
:16:06. > :16:13.the guy here with your hand up. don't think that we can forget that
:16:13. > :16:17.these events happened. Bobby Sands and the other hunger strike is a
:16:17. > :16:23.renowned throughout the world. It will bring in many tourists. People
:16:23. > :16:30.will make up their own minds, but it did happen and we can't forget it.
:16:30. > :16:35.What does Bobby Sands mean to you? He was a member of the IRA, he
:16:35. > :16:42.committed serious crimes, he went to prison and he starved himself to
:16:42. > :16:47.dress -- to death under the duress of the RA leadership. I have made
:16:47. > :16:53.clear that this should not be about eulogising any prisoner who was on
:16:53. > :16:59.the site. Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers were not the only prisoners
:16:59. > :17:03.to die in the Maze. Do you give in to a whole litany of thing? For
:17:04. > :17:07.every prisoner, there was at least one and indeed many victims. We have
:17:07. > :17:12.to be sensitive to their needs as well. We have got to recognise their
:17:12. > :17:16.suffering. I want to give you a chance to back down from this in
:17:16. > :17:19.case you want to reflect on it. also said on the Nolan radio show,
:17:19. > :17:25.there would be someone they're saying, this is where Bobby Sands
:17:25. > :17:30.died. There will be nothing inside the retained buildings that will
:17:30. > :17:36.show where any prisoner died or was interred, because that is not what
:17:36. > :17:43.this should be about. He is playing hardball. I think Woody has two
:17:43. > :17:48.avoid is claims that he is under pressure from Mike Nesbitt. What we
:17:48. > :17:58.have shown in the past ten years is that by a process of dialogue we can
:17:58. > :18:02.
:18:02. > :18:07.overcome these obstacles. Are you discussions about the development of
:18:07. > :18:10.the Maze site. But we are absolutely clear, and I will reiterate what I
:18:10. > :18:16.said. We will not countenance anything in the retained buildings
:18:16. > :18:23.that would be a bout eulogising terrorists or glorifying terrorism.
:18:23. > :18:26.I could not be clear on that. go to the retained buildings. There
:18:26. > :18:33.are visitors from all over the world going to that present site, going to
:18:33. > :18:36.that hospital. What story do you tell them inside the hospital?
:18:36. > :18:41.haven't agreed any narrative as to what will or will not be said inside
:18:41. > :18:45.the hospital, or any part of the prison site. If you go into the
:18:45. > :18:51.former hospital at the moment, it is completely empty. There is no
:18:51. > :19:00.intention to put anything inside it. We are not going to go down that
:19:00. > :19:08.road full pop Serena Hamilton, where are you? You have a particular
:19:08. > :19:18.reason you are here tonight. You lost your dad. I lost my dad to IRA
:19:18. > :19:18.
:19:18. > :19:25.terrorists. Two gunmen came in with balaclavas and shot him in the
:19:25. > :19:31.back. One was a sawn off shotgun and, and a pistol. And how do you
:19:31. > :19:35.feel about at the centre where all stories are told? I am not for this
:19:35. > :19:40.peace Centre at all at the Maze, because I believe like many other
:19:40. > :19:50.victims believe, that it will become a shrine to terrorism, to
:19:50. > :19:53.republicanism in particular, but to terrorism. The Maze is a prison, and
:19:53. > :20:02.you went to prison because you committed a crime, you committed
:20:02. > :20:05.murder, and they should be no glorification to that site at all. I
:20:05. > :20:15.believe that if they put that shrine there, people will tramp on the
:20:15. > :20:21.graves of our loved ones. Lawrence, you are next Republican prisoner.
:20:21. > :20:26.You were in 1976. You are a former hunger strike. How do you feel about
:20:26. > :20:36.that? As a member of this audience has already said, the story of the
:20:36. > :20:37.
:20:37. > :20:47.hunger strike will live on long after all of us are gone. The place
:20:47. > :20:48.
:20:48. > :20:56.Long Kesh was opened by Unionists in 1971, and when use week to people,
:20:56. > :21:00.-- when you speak to people, it was run by Britain. The whole thing from
:21:00. > :21:05.the start, and I have it on the computer still, it was an inclusive
:21:05. > :21:13.process. We contacted prison officers. From the very start, the
:21:13. > :21:20.prison dominates the history of this country, and it dominated because it
:21:20. > :21:27.you are hearing from the DUP that it is not go to dominate any story. You
:21:27. > :21:33.will be able to Google it and find out in what cell Bobby Sands died.
:21:33. > :21:43.Look at this lady beside you. Convince her, she lost her dad, that
:21:43. > :21:47.
:21:47. > :21:57.you too can sit down and share this. Speak to her now. I am not doing
:21:57. > :22:07.
:22:07. > :22:14.some soundbite for you. It is not a going on, and they have been going
:22:14. > :22:18.on for a long time. Laurence McKeown, it is not a soundbite, it
:22:18. > :22:21.is a real person sitting behind you, she lost her dad to the IRA, and I
:22:21. > :22:31.am asking you to speak to her and try and convince her why your story
:22:31. > :22:41.should be told as well. Why? There she is. Everybody's story should be
:22:41. > :22:41.
:22:41. > :22:47.told. I didn't lose my dad. He was murdered. My father didn't go out to
:22:47. > :22:52.shoot anybody. He was an innocent, decent law-abiding man in a civilian
:22:53. > :22:57.job when two gunmen went in and shot him in the back. Whatever propaganda
:22:57. > :23:07.or whatever group you belong to, murder is murder, and murder is
:23:07. > :23:11.
:23:11. > :23:15.wrong, no matter where you come numerous people on different sides
:23:15. > :23:24.in formed in different groups, security forces, Ulster defence
:23:24. > :23:27.Regiment, RUC, IRA, whatever. There was a conflict. There was no
:23:27. > :23:36.conflict. It was a terrorist campaign. It is wrong to murder
:23:36. > :23:46.people. That is not my view. Then you are saying it is all right to go
:23:46. > :23:52.
:23:53. > :23:57.out and murder people? You murdered that this isn't some project that is
:23:57. > :24:02.up in the sky. Landing permission has been given. There is money that
:24:02. > :24:12.will be spent on the grant will be lost. And the question is, can it
:24:12. > :24:12.
:24:12. > :24:19.happen at that site? When you hear this level of anger? The irony,
:24:19. > :24:24.going back to 2002, it was the idea of a site that would broaden it out
:24:24. > :24:29.to be more than just about a hunger strike. It is about learning from
:24:29. > :24:33.the history of it and the history of that site. So to me it is ironic
:24:33. > :24:43.that the Unionists are saying, don't have it. If you don't have the
:24:43. > :24:48.
:24:48. > :24:53.centre, what you are left with is a Northern Ireland is trying to move
:24:53. > :25:00.on. Instead of living in the past, why not just knock it down
:25:00. > :25:06.completely. You can't do that. It would be illegal to knock that
:25:06. > :25:11.building down. You can't have it as a shrine to any paramilitary group.
:25:11. > :25:16.It is totally wrong. That is in the past. Northern Ireland is trying to
:25:16. > :25:26.move forward. If you are picking up the phone tonight, you will find the
:25:26. > :25:26.
:25:26. > :25:31.numbers on your screen. You can just see and hear tonight
:25:31. > :25:37.how big an issue this is. How do you think it should be resolved?
:25:37. > :25:41.Many of the speakers are a microcosm of a fractured and divided society.
:25:41. > :25:48.But there are a number of reasons before you even get near the pollen
:25:48. > :25:53.ticks of this that it should go ahead. It is a massive public
:25:53. > :25:59.investment that is giving to create many jobs. -- going to create many
:25:59. > :26:06.jobs. So it should be very seriously considered from that point of view.
:26:06. > :26:11.And you lost your mum to the UVF. You honestly saying that jobs should
:26:11. > :26:17.be in the same sentence as pain and anguish? Know, and I am just coming
:26:17. > :26:22.to the main reason I think it should go ahead. We can use these verbs,
:26:22. > :26:27.and I suppose there is no other verb, murder is murder. My mother
:26:27. > :26:35.was murdered along with a young policeman. I subsequently became a
:26:35. > :26:40.great friend of David Ervine, who was offering analysis to the same
:26:40. > :26:45.organisation that murdered her. In many respects, the man that I got to
:26:45. > :26:54.know, I have to ask your audience, do you think he was a criminal? I
:26:54. > :26:57.don't. I think most people who were in this jail, over 25,000 over the
:26:57. > :27:03.years, the vast majority of them would never have seen the inside of
:27:03. > :27:06.a jail in a normal society, and we have to acknowledge that we have a
:27:06. > :27:12.different perception of this. thank you.
:27:12. > :27:15.Mike Nesbitt, but those people who would accuse you of playing to the
:27:15. > :27:23.gallery tonight, they would also remind you that you were in favour
:27:23. > :27:28.of releasing the prisoners. All the parties that came into the Belfast
:27:28. > :27:35.agreement went with that, but it wasn't new. 438 prisoners had
:27:35. > :27:40.already been released early. So if you port -- support the principles
:27:40. > :27:44.on being released... Arisen to single ex-prisoner on the streets
:27:44. > :27:49.today who would still be in prison if we hadn't had early release. It
:27:49. > :27:52.is over. But if you support the principle of early release, wide to
:27:52. > :27:57.support the principle of everyone telling their story where it
:27:57. > :28:05.happened, at the relevant site? Because everybody's story isn't
:28:05. > :28:09.about being a prisoner in the Maze. Most people's stories, and I'm not
:28:09. > :28:19.saying don't tell those stories, I'm saying don't tell them on the most
:28:19. > :28:21.
:28:21. > :28:25.divisive plot of land we have got. So lose the ground if you have to?
:28:25. > :28:33.We don't have to lose the ground. More people per square mile were
:28:33. > :28:39.killed in north Belfast than any other consistency. -- constituency.
:28:39. > :28:45.So if Bobby Sands' death and those like him were going to be marked,
:28:45. > :28:48.where would be acceptable to you? You would have to agree a narrative,
:28:48. > :28:54.and they have gone to an agreement about building a centre without
:28:54. > :29:02.knowing what is good to be in it. is like building a home and then
:29:02. > :29:07.asking how many bedrooms it has. Where would it be acceptable to Mark
:29:07. > :29:14.Bobby Sands? You would have to tell the entire story. It is about more
:29:14. > :29:19.than prisoners and Victor makers. I do not expect that there would be
:29:19. > :29:23.official tour guides saying, this is the bed where the sainted Bobby
:29:23. > :29:28.Sands gave up his life. Can't we have two alternative
:29:29. > :29:36.stories? What happens when a coachload of rich and influential
:29:36. > :29:39.Irish Americans get off, and they bring flowers to commemorate the
:29:39. > :29:44.hunger strikers? Do we have to call in the water
:29:44. > :29:54.cannon? You can pick up the phone tonight if
:29:54. > :30:05.
:30:05. > :30:09.Now, just before we go on, I want to share something with you that
:30:09. > :30:13.happened on the radio show this week. Luckily the cameras were there
:30:13. > :30:21.to actually pick this up. You see, Vinnie, he works on the radio show
:30:21. > :30:31.as well, and he thought it would be quite cool, a good idea, to surprise
:30:31. > :30:31.
:30:31. > :30:39.me with a 14 foot- in the studio. It wasn't funny. I didn't find it funny
:30:39. > :30:44.at all. I turned the tables on him. So, you've brought a snake in?
:30:44. > :30:54.all about facing your fears. This is a major news programme, I shouldn't
:30:54. > :31:01.
:31:01. > :31:08.have live snakes in the studio. SCREAMS. You idiot. I'm changing my
:31:08. > :31:18.mind, this was a silly idea. Oh, my God! I might be sick. You are
:31:18. > :31:21.
:31:21. > :31:27.wrapping that around your neck. I am going to be sick. SCREAMS. Did you
:31:27. > :31:34.know fear can hold you back? If you face your fear... It is disgusting,
:31:34. > :31:44.it is not like heights. You are not food, this has just eaten two
:31:44. > :31:46.
:31:46. > :31:56.rabbits. I don't... ! OK, OK, you keep hold of the head. I don't like
:31:56. > :31:57.
:31:57. > :32:04.it. I've got 25 years of working with these. I've been bitten more by
:32:04. > :32:14.my dogs than by my snake. So you've been bitten by the snake? Could I
:32:14. > :32:18.
:32:18. > :32:28.speak to you outside? No! This is not funny. No! Brian! The head is
:32:28. > :32:30.
:32:30. > :32:34.moving towards me. That was Vinnie, ladies and gentlemen.
:32:34. > :32:39.That's what you get for trying to turn the tables on me. If you do
:32:39. > :32:47.want to let him know how much of a wuss he is, you've got my phone?
:32:47. > :32:53.Yes. You can phone him, and even better still, if you've got a video
:32:53. > :32:59.that you think can beat that, we will bring you down and we will
:32:59. > :33:03.stick it on the telly. You can e-mail it to us. Send us your
:33:03. > :33:09.videos, we can get them on the telly.
:33:09. > :33:13.Now, up until a few weeks ago, my next guest was making a few quid
:33:13. > :33:17.busking in Belfast in between studying for his A-levels but after
:33:17. > :33:27.the appearance on the BBC's The Voice, 18-year-old Conor Scott has
:33:27. > :33:27.
:33:27. > :36:29.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 181 seconds
:36:29. > :36:34.me, you're my sweetheart. I belong with you, you belong with me, you're
:36:34. > :36:38.my sweetheart. I belong with you, you belong with me, you're my
:36:38. > :36:48.sweetheart. I belong with you, you belong with
:36:48. > :37:07.
:37:07. > :37:14.you. That's a long way from busking. It's only round the corner from
:37:14. > :37:23.here! It's written all over your face, your loving it. It's not bad.
:37:23. > :37:27.It is a bit hectic, since, you know, three or four weeks ago, and knowing
:37:27. > :37:31.that everything was happening, because this was done a couple of
:37:31. > :37:36.months before, pre-recorded, so I had to keep it quiet. It has now
:37:36. > :37:43.blown up. I am trying to soak it all in and enjoy it as much as I can and
:37:43. > :37:47.get as much as I can from it. your enthusiasm is infectious. The
:37:47. > :37:56.reason you are so enthusiastic is because it is genuine. This is what
:37:56. > :38:01.you want to do from how old? Since I probably figured out music was the
:38:01. > :38:04.only thing that I really had a proper passion for. Since I was
:38:04. > :38:11.playing the guitar, since I was nine, I've been trying to sing since
:38:11. > :38:17.I was 16. Since going to the street sand getting the support and from
:38:17. > :38:24.there, it is Giggs and everything. You said to me earlier on today when
:38:24. > :38:30.we met, you said something strange. You said, this is the only thing I
:38:30. > :38:35.really have going for me. What did you mean? Everything that I do and
:38:35. > :38:41.everything that I have planned to do, it is gearing towards music.
:38:41. > :38:48.Even the A-level subjects. And that plan, the planned to go to
:38:48. > :38:55.university, I am taking a year out. Of course. Everything I do and I
:38:55. > :39:02.put-in, I try to put 100% effort in. You've got to work hard, it is
:39:02. > :39:08.difficult to get a break. So, you started busking? That's it. It
:39:08. > :39:15.started from whenever I was in my GCSE class. My mate said, do you
:39:15. > :39:20.want to sing a few tunes and we made 20 quits. It was, like, happy days!
:39:20. > :39:29.It got me some food on the way home. And it evolved from there. I ended
:39:29. > :39:33.up going out and busking by myself. From the streets of Belfast earning
:39:33. > :39:37.20 quid, you're finding yourself sitting in a massive BBC studio,
:39:37. > :39:43.across the water, and you're panicking one of those chairs needs
:39:44. > :39:51.to turn around. I wasn't thinking about that. I just want to play
:39:51. > :39:59.music. There must have been a moment, when Danny Swanson around,
:39:59. > :40:04.that must have... I didn't catch it. I was trying to Intel Dutch, I was
:40:04. > :40:14.so overwhelmed, I quoted in the corner of my eye, and I'm singing,
:40:14. > :40:14.
:40:14. > :40:21.and I go like that. What did it feel like? Properly amazing. The fact I
:40:21. > :40:27.am through with Danny, he knows me, I am getting to know him, it is
:40:27. > :40:33.being part of the whole show, it is a great experience. What is your
:40:33. > :40:38.dream? Trust and have a living as being a musician, playing gigs. And
:40:38. > :40:44.recording songs, and hopefully people would want to join with me.
:40:44. > :40:48.That is all I want. Do you know what I love about the opportunities the
:40:48. > :40:53.BBC has given me to do a local show like this? It is basically that we
:40:53. > :40:58.can have people like you in this studio because what is really
:40:58. > :41:03.important is we talk about what is wrong in Northern Ireland, but the
:41:03. > :41:08.enthusiasm, the optimism and people that are driven, like you, whether
:41:08. > :41:14.or not you make it, stayed driven and believe in yourself. And we will
:41:14. > :41:24.support you on TV, make. Ladies and gentlemen, give Conor Scott a round
:41:24. > :41:35.
:41:35. > :41:39.on, shall we give you a quick with us? You can be tweeting. Don't
:41:39. > :41:49.be sending anything dodgy! Vinnie will be taking the tweets. You can
:41:49. > :42:03.
:42:03. > :42:07.You can also text us. And I've got to tell you the cost of the text!
:42:07. > :42:11.Next up, would you pay for your son to lose his virginity if they had a
:42:11. > :42:18.disability? One mother has revealed this week she used a Belfast escort
:42:18. > :42:21.to do that. Her only regret? That she didn't do it sooner. If you are
:42:21. > :42:29.a mother or father, would you consider this for your son or
:42:29. > :42:35.daughter if they had a disability? Kate Smurthwaite is with me here
:42:35. > :42:39.tonight and also Johnny Anglais, a porn star and former teacher. What
:42:40. > :42:44.do you think? Being a parent is a very difficult thing. Part of the
:42:44. > :42:47.rule of being a parent is to look out for the well-being, the health
:42:47. > :42:55.and happiness of your child. I'm sure it is difficult for her being
:42:55. > :43:01.the parent of a distant -- disabled child, but she should be commended.
:43:02. > :43:05.She has made a recognition that we far too often deny in this part of
:43:06. > :43:09.the world that human beings have a sexual need and sexual gratification
:43:09. > :43:15.is an important part of being a human being. She recognises her son
:43:15. > :43:23.hasn't found that. So was love, affection, so somebody caring about
:43:23. > :43:29.you. It can occur, but I do not have a religious basis, why should I have
:43:29. > :43:34.my values dictated to me by other things? Sex is a physical act. It
:43:34. > :43:40.can be enjoyed just for itself. It doesn't cheapen it? Why should
:43:40. > :43:43.recognition of sex cheapen anything? Parents saying to a child,
:43:43. > :43:48.money will buy you that gratification. Compared to many
:43:48. > :43:52.people going out on a Friday and Saturday night and pay for a bar to
:43:52. > :43:58.get somebody completely drunk and then have sex with them, consent
:43:58. > :44:05.which is usually drunken, that is prostitution by proxy that many
:44:05. > :44:10.people are having. Kate. There are three things wrong. Firstly, the
:44:10. > :44:20.assumption that disabled people don't have a good sex life. There
:44:20. > :44:30.isn't. Lots of people have a great sex life. Or a frustrating sex life.
:44:30. > :44:30.
:44:30. > :44:37.Stop talking about me there. But for the people who are choosing, the
:44:37. > :44:41.parents who are choosing to pay. this person is not willing to have
:44:41. > :44:45.sex with you for free, is there really can send their? And I agree
:44:45. > :44:49.that a person who is very drunk is not able to give consent in a way
:44:49. > :44:54.that I'm comfortable with. But we are creating a weird and
:44:54. > :44:58.non-standard system. Will we have the Department for Work and Pensions
:44:58. > :45:08.coming around and saying, it is not a serious disability, so you can
:45:08. > :45:09.
:45:09. > :45:18.only have oral sex. But what if because of a physical disability,
:45:18. > :45:28.you can't. People can. They need help to get out of the house, to go
:45:28. > :45:32.and socialise. This isn't about being disabled at all. It is about
:45:32. > :45:38.people who can't form the same relationships as you and I. And for
:45:38. > :45:42.many people, the fact that they are paying for it, it is a very open and
:45:42. > :45:47.honest thing. I want to be able to experience sex, like I can't when I
:45:47. > :45:51.go out and meet people, because for whatever reason... What you are
:45:51. > :45:59.missing here is the way that money is suddenly having a dig impact on
:45:59. > :46:09.consent. The guy here in the red T-shirt.
:46:09. > :46:18.
:46:18. > :46:25.am against it. I think it is wrong is wrong as a man? Yes, I do. You
:46:25. > :46:30.are putting yourselves in danger. So do many other people, like the bee
:46:31. > :46:40.but who worked in the factory in Bangladesh.
:46:41. > :46:41.
:46:41. > :46:45.What is your first name? Paul.That mother wanted her son to experience
:46:45. > :46:49.what a lot of other big experience, sex. Because of his disability, both
:46:49. > :46:56.he and his mother felt that would not happen, and she didn't want him
:46:56. > :47:01.miss out on that. I think it is too close to abuse. I think if you are
:47:01. > :47:04.disabled, it is not appropriate to do it.
:47:04. > :47:10.Did you just say, if you are disabled, it is not appropriate to
:47:10. > :47:18.do it? To do what? At the end of the day, some people
:47:18. > :47:25.are better off not doing it. That is utter discrimination and an
:47:25. > :47:33.appalling, disgraceful attitude. is perfectly acceptable to say that
:47:33. > :47:41.if you are disabled, you are better off not having set. So they are
:47:41. > :47:44.supposed to have that denied? It may not be consent. It is taking
:47:44. > :47:51.advantage of somebody who has not got the same choices as everybody
:47:51. > :47:55.else. I think there is such a big emphasis in this country for a
:47:55. > :48:02.quality. I don't think physical relationships should be an exclusion
:48:02. > :48:08.for that. What do you think about what he has just said? I don't want
:48:08. > :48:12.to get into that. There are psychological implications of being
:48:12. > :48:16.deprived of something like that. A lot of people, losing your virginity
:48:16. > :48:26.is a rite of passage, and people should be able to experience that,
:48:26. > :48:33.
:48:33. > :48:37.difficult to protect, but sex is not a right. In order to have sex,
:48:37. > :48:41.someone else has to consent to participate in it with you, and you
:48:41. > :48:45.can't force someone if they don't consent of their own free will. It
:48:45. > :48:51.doesn't seem that the sex industry is using any reasonable standards to
:48:51. > :49:01.assess consent. Carl has called us tonight, you have
:49:01. > :49:04.
:49:04. > :49:08.a spinal cord industry? I am a T12 paraplegic. Prostitution, whether it
:49:08. > :49:18.be for a disabled person or able-bodied, it is the ultimate deal
:49:18. > :49:22.with the devil, but it is morality versus practicality. I personally
:49:22. > :49:28.don't agree with it, for myself as a person. I wouldn't go to see a
:49:28. > :49:33.prostitute. But since my spinal cord injury, I have been to see a sex
:49:33. > :49:39.therapist, which is bordering on prostitution being Midson. It is all
:49:39. > :49:43.a grey area. We need to have somewhere in the middle. It is
:49:44. > :49:48.morality versus practicality. When it comes to some people, not just
:49:48. > :49:52.disabled people... Let me get this clear. It is not
:49:52. > :49:58.good enough EU, you draw the line, you wouldn't do it, but you advise
:49:58. > :50:08.other disabled people to do it? is not a case of it is not good
:50:08. > :50:15.enough for me. I believe that it is used wrongly. Sex is too powerful,
:50:15. > :50:19.too addictive to be sold the way it is. We seem to be forgetting about
:50:19. > :50:22.the women trapped in the sex industry here. 90%, and I have
:50:22. > :50:26.worked with a lot of survivors, 90% of women who work in the sex
:50:27. > :50:33.industry do not want to be in it. The average age of entry into
:50:33. > :50:37.prostitution is 14. We have to do something to tackle the abuse.
:50:37. > :50:43.will admit that there is an unsavoury side of any industry. But
:50:43. > :50:50.there are those who feel empowered to doing it. Yes, but they are in a
:50:50. > :50:55.minority. You can sell your brain, your hands
:50:55. > :51:05.to work in a factory, that is not exploitative. Is the vagina cheaper
:51:05. > :51:18.
:51:18. > :51:25.There is a lady here. Hello, Madame, hello, madam in the glasses. First
:51:25. > :51:30.of all, I don't agree with this young man beside me. I do agree that
:51:30. > :51:37.he should have sex in the future. But he ever came to me in ten, 11,
:51:37. > :51:46.12 years time, and said that he needed CNS Court, my answer is no.
:51:46. > :51:53.What if he said he needed to see and escort? I want my son to understand
:51:54. > :52:02.feelings before he understands I have to have a sex life. Sarah -ish
:52:02. > :52:12.male, a writer and blogger, suffers from cerebral palsy. -- Sarah is
:52:12. > :52:21.mile. What do you think about parents who would buy set for a
:52:21. > :52:25.disabled child who can't otherwise get it? I think the option should be
:52:25. > :52:33.open to disabled people to go for prostitution, just like it is open
:52:33. > :52:39.to anyone else. But they should be taught and able to realise that that
:52:39. > :52:43.is not the only option. There are disabled people who are able to find
:52:43. > :52:47.sexual partners for themselves, and it has taken a long time for people
:52:47. > :52:55.to realise that, and as long as people realise that and it is only
:52:55. > :53:01.an option, and not the only option, then it should be open to everyone.
:53:01. > :53:04.Sarah, would you advise everybody then that it is free choice? Would
:53:04. > :53:09.you'd say to people, don't buy it, whether you have a disability or
:53:10. > :53:13.not. Able-bodied or disabled, find somebody who loves you. Don't find
:53:13. > :53:17.somebody who is going to take couple of quid and walk away and not care
:53:18. > :53:22.about you afterwards. Find somebody who loves you if you
:53:22. > :53:26.can, but there are some people who are unable to have a physical
:53:26. > :53:33.relationship, and they should have the choice to have some human
:53:33. > :53:39.contact in anyway that is possible. Centres that are opening, there is
:53:39. > :53:44.one to be planned to be opened next year, to make physical relationships
:53:44. > :53:50.accessible to disabled people in a safe way, that the workers and the
:53:50. > :53:54.disabled person understands that is being paid for. Sarah, thank you.
:53:54. > :54:04.Young man, apparently it is going do loud about you on twitter right now.
:54:04. > :54:15.
:54:15. > :54:20.Seriously! You don't have to have sex. Have you listened to this lady
:54:20. > :54:28.here? Yes, but that is one point of view. They should pursue other
:54:28. > :54:33.interests. God forbid that anything should happen to you that you could
:54:33. > :54:37.be rendered disabled and still have sexual urges. We shouldn't be
:54:37. > :54:42.telling anybody how to live their lives. But we shouldn't assume that
:54:42. > :54:46.disabled people shouldn't have a sex life. We absolutely should not be
:54:46. > :54:49.reacting with horror when we hear that some of them do. At the same
:54:49. > :54:59.time, we should recognise that the sex industry has enormous problems
:54:59. > :55:00.
:55:00. > :55:10.within it, and it is not a good solution. We should deal with those.
:55:10. > :55:13.
:55:14. > :55:16.Liz, are you there? Hello? I think it was horrendous, that young lad
:55:16. > :55:23.turning around in saying that disabled people shouldn't have a
:55:23. > :55:33.normal sex life. If they are in love, why not? Will he answer me
:55:33. > :55:50.
:55:50. > :55:52.that, please? The guy with the want one to that question or not.
:55:52. > :56:02.Some people see it as taking advantage of the disabled if you
:56:02. > :56:05.
:56:05. > :56:10.hazardous able son. I know you but who are disabled and have a good sex
:56:10. > :56:14.life will stop how can you bring people down like that, and you have
:56:14. > :56:24.a little smirk on your face yourself? Liz, thank you. Ladies and
:56:24. > :56:26.
:56:26. > :56:32.gentlemen, we have Becky on the line. I run a service called
:56:32. > :56:40.paradoxes, that helps people with disability find sex workers if they
:56:40. > :56:43.are looking for them. I agree with Sarah, that if people with
:56:43. > :56:48.disability feel that they want to have sex one way or another, then
:56:48. > :56:54.they should be allowed to do so, and we are here to help people do it
:56:54. > :57:04.safely and with consent. Becky, thank you very much. Ladies and
:57:04. > :57:13.
:57:13. > :57:20.tonight. Just to remind you about tickets for the show. If you wanted
:57:20. > :57:30.to apply for tickets and be in the audience, there is the address. If
:57:30. > :57:59.
:57:59. > :58:07.you do want to send us a story, the That being is staring straight at
:58:07. > :58:15.me, and I think it might want something. It only eats once every